Anne Parker "Gross National Happiness -- the inner and outer practice / making it your own" **** [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host, David Devine. And itŐs a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions - Naropa is the birth place of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] Hello, today I'd like to welcome Anne Parker to the podcast. She is a full time Naropa faculty member teaching in the Environmental Studies. And itŐs a deep pleasure to have you on our podcast today. [00:00:56.04] ANNE: Thanks David. [00:00:56.20] DAVID: Is there anything else you'd like to add? Anything you just want the listeners to know about you? [00:01:01.08] ANNE: Well, uh I teach in the undergraduate program in Environmental Studies. The Master's in Resilient Leadership and also, I lead our program - overseas program to Bhutan. And that's sparking my interest of what I am going to speak about today. [00:01:14.08] DAVID: Awesome. Yeah. And what are we going to speak about today? [00:01:18.14] ANNE: So, what I want to explore together is the idea of gross national happiness. And to talk a bit about the inner and outer practices. And I have a subtitle which is capturing a big of what I think our students experience when they go and they spend a full semester there. [00:01:32.18] DAVID: Yeah and so what you're talking about is a program that the students at Naropa get to do where you take a couple of them to Bhutan, Tibet and they study for a semester - is that correct? [00:01:43.03] ANNE: Yes, so any student at Naropa and in fact any American undergraduate can apply for our program to spend a whole semester - a spring semester studying both with me as a teacher and with the Royal University of Bhutan. So, itŐs a really unusual and exciting program to just really go and live there. And you know be with people as their lives are. [00:02:03.06] DAVID: And uh true or false - we're the only university that has ties with the Royal University of Bhutan. [00:02:09.12] ANNE: Uh yes, we're the first university to work with them - with overseas students. And they chose us because they love our pedagogy and at Naropa. They really like the sense of the east meets west that we have and that is what their world is like as well. [00:02:20.21] DAVID: Yeah, and we have the -- [00:02:22.08] ANNE: Queen Mother. [00:02:23.12] DAVID: The queen mother came to our campus about last semester, right? [00:02:26.20] ANNE: Uh last fall and she really fell in love with it actually. She really loved to see what we were doing here. [00:02:32.08] DAVID: Yeah it was such a treat. [00:02:32.08] ANNE: ItŐs been a close cross cultural discourse at many levels. [00:02:36.17] DAVID: Great, so gross national happiness? [00:02:39.05] ANNE: Yeah. So, I'd like to talk about that because itŐs an idea that's inspiring people all around the world. And just hearing that phrase actually gives people a lot of hope and excitement and perhaps also some illusions. LAUGHS. So, I'd like to explore that mostly not as an expert. You know I feel the Bhutanese people themselves are the ones who are living and embodying those practices. But as visitors we get to spend some time there and I watch the students and of course I mostly watch myself. Uh interacting with the world that they have created. So, itŐs more like a rumination about what we are sort of knowing and feeling. And I wanted to talk about it at three different levels. First, I want to talk about the outer - the gross national happiness. What the world knows about what's going on there and how its inspired people. And the inner one is like what's actually happening inside the country? You know itŐs such a great idea, but what does it mean to start to embody that? And the way they live. [00:03:26.17] DAVID: And this is based off of a national gross -- [00:03:29.22] DAVID: Gross national product. [00:03:30.23] DAVID: Yeah, so they're not basing it on product. They're actually basing it on like an energy we feel inside. [00:03:36.09] ANNE: Yeah. [00:03:36.19] DAVID: Like the happiness. [00:03:38.03] ANNE: Yeah and that's what brings a smile to people's faces like it did to yours. [00:03:41.17] DAVID: Yeah, I mean if we were based in how we quantify happiness in a - in a national setting I feel like that's pretty amazing and groundbreaking. [00:03:51.16] ANNE: Yeah, thank you for that perspective because that opens the door to the conversation. And then after I talk about what they are doing in the country I want to talk about the next level, which could be called secret or innate or like what's happening at the underlying personal level. [00:04:03.23] DAVID: Yeah. [00:04:04.11] ANNE: And itŐs really mostly just an exploration. So maybe I will start a little bit with I think when people hear that word - gross national happiness it creates sort of an idealization of what's going on in Bhutan and you can have - you idealize something too much you have a crash. You know - so I watch our students sometimes idealize things - and then take that crash and then come out with a really deep sense of excitement and amazement about what's going on in Bhutan. So, we're going to kind of take it off its pedestal together. As we speak. So, a little bit of context for our listeners - Bhutan is a small country perhaps the size of Switzerland. And it - it goes from about 600 feet in elevation to 23 thousand feet in elevation quite quickly. So, itŐs a very steep sort of place. Its mashed between India and China. So, itŐs a little country trying to do this very brave experiment. Surrounded by all the challenges of the world. So, it was really the fourth king when he was pretty young who came up with this term and it just came up spontaneously. I think a reporter was kind of bugging him about the poverty of his country or the challenges and he said - here's this - here is what I believe is his exact quote. We don't believe in gross national product. Gross national happiness is more important. And so, it was just an idea that came up and since then to be honest I think the word happiness has been a bit of a challenge because itŐs confusing especially in English. What does that word mean? Like what do we actually think? And we can sort of stop and think about that. What do we mean? And what is our definition? You know is it an emotion? Is it a static state that we want to have all of our lives? Is it part of a good life? Is it part of many states of mind that make up a full life of awakening and integration? Is it for one's self only? Uh and where does happiness come from? So, in our western discourse you know our language or unhappiness is quite messy. And it comes from a Greek concept that had to do with good life or flourishing. More than just an emotion. So, in a way we use that word for so many things itŐs hard to tell and it can sometimes disappoint us. But, the word that he was using really comes from the Buddhist view which means inner wakefulness. Inner fulfillment that is not associated with an exhaustible desire for outer things. And, he wanted to be sure - I mean eventually as the term gross national happiness has evolved they want to be very sure that itŐs about creating the conditions that support happiness. So, itŐs not like everybody is going to have a TV or certain things. ItŐs about how do we create this condition of living together. And creating collective happiness. [00:06:24.21] DAVID: So, itŐs like the happiness of everyone coming together. ItŐs not just an individual happiness that could intrude on someone else's happiness? [00:06:32.10] ANNE: Yeah, and I think in that context then gross national happiness starts to make more sense. And, people are pretty familiar with what are called the four main pillars. Like the main aspirations for creating those conditions for happiness have to do with equitable and equal social economic development. The preservation and promotion of the cultural and spiritual heritage. The conversation of the national environment and good governance. And so, those are the big - the big headlines and we're pretty familiar with those and they still sound very inviting and they are. Uh and its inspired places like Thailand and Canada and places in England and the U.S. - cities to develop their own measures of well being. They've used that term sort of well being as the term. Since then there was a lot of pressure to quantify what happiness is because if itŐs a measure you have to measure you know if you are going to compete with gross national product you have to show something, right. So that's been a challenge. And, they've developed these nationwide surveys in 2010 was the first one. 2015 was the second one and they're starting to actually get a good feedback loop on how do we seek these outer and inner qualities of happiness in a community? And they've done a lot of things. I mean the things that are most striking on the outer level of accomplishment are that they've - they're committed to protecting 60% forest cover in the entire country. And they're about 64% covered of the forest. And its protecting biodiversity and all kinds of other life. The country has set aside 42% of the country is national parks and wild life corridors and preserved areas. So that's a huge you know experiment and brave thing to do. [00:08:02.17] DAVID: Do they account for nature and animals into the gross national happiness? [00:08:07.10] ANNE: I think it -- [00:08:08.12] DAVID: Or is it just kind of humans - governance? [00:08:10.15] ANNE: Good point. Well, I think that because the traditional relationship to the natural world and this idea of protecting places I think itŐs built in a way that is in there and also in the national parks they don't remove the traditional indigenous peoples. They're caretakers of the environment. So, itŐs not like you throw out people and leave nature alone. ItŐs like this delicate but generative relationship that goes on. That's a good question. And also, they're right in the mid - you know itŐs a developing country. They've got climate change and the melting glaciers that burst and cause great floods. They've got economic issues that are quite significant. You know the geopolitics of the surrounding situation is pretty intense. There is also poverty in Bhutan and air pollution from India and China. So, they are in a place where they are really bravely stepping up to see what can be done. So that's really what I would call a brief glimpse of the outer quality of what the aspiration is. So, to set up a country that is looking in this way. At the inner level - but I have sort of learned watching over the last couple of years while I've been working in Bhutan is they got very public about gross national happiness because people were so excited. And they lead a number of - maybe about 5 annual conferences or so and then they realized they better just shut and do it. It was like a lot of outward talking. And they thought this is too much outward. We need to stop, go home and do it. And that's what's been happening recently. So, I observe as a visitor who is you know very affectionate towards their aspirations but not as an expert is starting to appear everywhere. Like its now threaded throughout education from kindergartner to college. The learning is framed through those pillars and itŐs also threaded throughout government everywhere. So, every decision at a government level needs to go through the filter of gross national happiness from the highest level right down to the local villagers who step up when a project is coming to their small valley. To look at all these qualifeds - like how it would it affect education? People's well being. Health of the environment. So, they sit down and try their best to take all those factors in with every decision. So, itŐs now sort of threaded throughout government, education, business - everything. [00:10:03.13] DAVID: It seems like the gross national happiness is uh they look into what it could affect on a bigger level with happiness being the center and the root but gross product seems like itŐs only based on the financial basis. [00:10:16.16] ANNE: Yeah. [00:10:17.10] DAVID: You know and then everything else is second nature. [00:10:19.22] ANNE: Exactly, I mean these are - some things of well being show up in that, but not enough to protect the world that we're living in. ItŐs all - the way I thought about it as an American is its sort of like embedding a value throughout the entire culture. Uh like for example, in democracy one of our great values that we teach kids very early and we - we embed the whole view of what are our responsibilities as a citizen is - so just the way we take a deep value and thread it throughout the culture. They're working on this gross national happiness. Now, of course it was an older value. These deep Buddhist practices were always there. And itŐs also a very communal culture. So, they have some things that they're building on - but its literally like a threading of this concept throughout this new concept and new language throughout the entire culture. At various levels. So, I think itŐs been interesting watching it happen. You know its complex and how do you change and entire cultural language and perspective? [00:11:08.20] DAVID: How new is this? Like when did this get started? Uh you said it was the 4th king? [00:11:15.05] ANNE: Yeah and so the fourth king was pretty young, and he came up with that term spontaneously in 1979. [00:11:20.16] DAVID: Ok, so that's fairly new. [00:11:22.06] ANNE: But its only I think at about 2008 that it - it entered the constitution of Bhutan when Bhutan became a democracy. So, the 4th king really set up the circumstances for Bhutan to become a democracy. And it - just a constitutional monarchy. So, he gave the power to the people but he also gross national happiness got built in at that time into the constitution. And these commitments to protect the forest and the wild lands. [00:11:43.01] DAVID: So, itŐs still a teenager or not a teenager yet? The idea -- and the practice of -- [00:11:48.13] ANNE: Yeah and that's a nice way of saying it because people go there and they have this huge idea about what it could be or what it is and when they see itŐs a messy human process uh messy, but heart felt process. And itŐs very much underway. So, itŐs a great observation you just made. I wanted to read just something - let's see - I have something from the words of the 4th king. Talking about what is gross national happiness education? And I realized that he - in looking at his words he combined it very closely with mindfulness practice. He said that we - for our gross national happiness education we need to teach our children to take care of their minds. And to use their body, mind and speech for the benefit of others to bring greater peace and harmony to themselves. So I began to see that you know these inner pieces - the inner practices are very much a part of - there is the outer decisions on projects, but this is inner work and at the conference that he spoke uh the words that describe it are - it involves training one's mind to look in - and become aware of one's thoughts and emotions. And learning to be mindful of one's actions. Getting used to one's mind and learning to use the power of goodness, compassion, integrity and wisdom that lie beneath the apparent confusion of anxiety struggles and emotional upheavals of the mind which meditation and contemplation brings it to bare - in the - is the essence of mindfulness education. So, I could see that the words were very much joined together - of gross national happiness education and mindfulness. Its -- [00:13:17.04] DAVID: It sounds like a really good investment for a government to start this initiative because it sounds like the people are becoming healthier within their bodies, within their mind with the relationships they have with nature, they're communities, their even like external communities - just they're - I don't know itŐs hard to see - how that could be bad in any sense. Or - [00:13:39.17] ANNE: I think the word that some people have used for it is itŐs a brave experiment so I -- I like that. And also, as you drop down to the sort of inner level like what's happening inside the country and their own beliefs there are these nine uh domains of gross national happiness. So, the ones - the other ones are about economics and cultural preservation and so forth, but you drop down to this other level of psychological well being which looks at positive and negative emotions and spirituality. There is health - which looks at mental health. And disability. And, how many healthy days a year do people have? Time use which has to do with sleep and work. I love that. That is one of the crazy things we have now in our world is just how speedy it is. Education we have sort of spoken about. Cultural diversity. Letting people speak their native languages - there is 19 languages in the country. Uh good governance. The structures that hold these outer decisions. There is community of vitality which looks at how families are doing, how community relationships are. Of course, the ecological diversity, resilience is really critical, and we've sort of spoken about that and then just living standards. You know they're still a country where people live very simply and you know you need to sort of make access to drinking water and things. [00:14:48.01] DAVID: Yeah, itŐs really interesting to see how psychological well being is part of the initiative that the government is gifting their - their citizens. Outwardly saying like we are - want - we are wanting to invest in your well being. Psychologically health with education - there is all these amazing initiatives that are encapsulated in the gross national happiness. [00:15:10.22] ANNE: Yeah, so its sweet. ItŐs not just looking outward because outward things do cause the support for the person. But to make that conscious I think is what's sort of exciting about the - that brave experiment. And then, I have this third category which I call secret which is sort of a Tibetan Buddhist term - their sort of outer knowledge. There is inner knowledge but then the secret is deep inside and I call innate maybe itŐs our innate wisdom. And in a way itŐs very simple. ItŐs about touching the ordinary moment and the ordinary world as it is. Just as it is - but when you're there you can sort of feel it like its why we call ancient magic. Because itŐs something that is so delicious and so warm about it. And itŐs really very simple. But it still has this quality of inviting the - your deep sensibilities. So, the first time I came back from our first semester in Bhutan - friends who saw me you know picked me up at airport - saw me - they said you look so happy. And I thought - I wonder why I look so happy. Because you know - it was exciting. It was good, but it was also challenging. It had a lot of hard work. [00:16:05.20] DAVID: You were glowing. [00:16:05.20] ANNE: Yeah, and I thought well why would I look happy to them, you know? So, it wasn't as if it was some kind of perfect world. It was just you know mushing along as humans do. And I thought what was it - so I actually came up with some interesting things that came to my attention. It had a lot to do with what I call simple sensory attention. And one of them is - about time. Bhutanese joke about BST. Bhutan stretchable time. That its flexible. Like many countries have in a certain way. Different from maybe linear or western time. But it wasn't just that. It was something else. It was like if things didn't happen there was sort of - there was nobody worried. There is no sense of guilt or shame about something not happening or if family needs came up that were more important than people would just change and do that. Like one of the faculty member's mother died and the whole university shut down and all - everybody prepared the funeral ritual together. So, they are sort of stopping for what's - what's truly important in people's lives. Which I thought was really -- impressive. It just felt like kind of inner kindness around time. And I noticed how - how unkind I often am to myself in the west around time. So, it was something that I wanted to then take on as a personal practice. [00:17:12.21] DAVID: Yeah, like a life marker comes up and you address it as it is there and not like oh how am I still going to do this and that? You're not like trying to figure out two different things in your life which might not invest into the happiness. ItŐs kind of like making you stressed out. [00:17:30.03] ANNE: And it certainly gave me a chance to sort of look at my own you know kind of inner time and how I treated it. [00:17:33.15] DAVID: And how the community shows up for you too. That sounds really neat and amazing. [00:17:38.10] ANNE: And also, just the presence of nature. I mean I talked about the preserved land and but to stand there at a valley with 7000 feet if trees breathing with you above you and 7000 feet of trees breathing below - itŐs so innately healing. You know just being there - you know the newer neuro science shows how much we need nature for our health and happiness. So, I think itŐs well shown up there. It just lets one arrive. And another one, which is interesting - what I would call the collective field or the individual field and there is a quality of feeling in the silence - connected with people. And itŐs hard to explain. That I was - I was just feeling it when I got there for a period of time and it wasn't until I had the chance to meet with two of - western woman who are so excited to meet with and chat with in English and discuss things with. And I realized that we had very pokey energy. We were trained to be so individual and so competitive even though we were the sweetest people. We were banging up against each other's sort of energetic field. And I thought my goodness we feel very separate. ItŐs almost we've created these individual capsules around us and we bump them. But I wouldn't have noticed it if I hadn't had at least aware to myself - not have that happen for a couple months. So, there is just that quality of how we create our - our collective and energetic field. That's pretty much what I can say about it. You just feel it. [00:18:46.03] DAVID: Is that something you both came up with collectively or - did you think about that and it wasn't a conversation? Did you both kind of like hey I think we're being pokey. [00:18:55.13] ANNE: That's a good question. No, I actually probably should have explored that more. I just kept telling - I kept feeling like I was bumping against them. And, I couldn't get close. So, I just continue with the western way of trying to get close of talking more and sharing ideas and it was ok. It was not bad, but it still felt like something was happening. So probably I should have mind it. [00:19:13.10] DAVID: That's great that you noticed that. [00:19:14.13] ANNE: You know there are lots of other things that are going on, but those are some of the ones that affected me the most and another one is - what people used to do in the past is to stop and take tea at any time you bump into somebody. You're running about being a - a busy faculty member and you see somebody and oh we'll have a cup of tea. So, just the practice of taking tea I thought was - was delicious. So, there are a lot of other things you know there is a way in which service of the community is really important and it shows up everywhere and then one simple jumps and goes and cleans the irrigation ditch that has been clogged for the neighbor's villages. You know sort of a sense of service. And immediate application of your community connection. And being surrounded by the music and the arts. You know every Bhutan takes art and music really seriously. So, itŐs like daily vitamins - music and art. So, anyway those are just a few things that I noticed. Those had relaxed my body and made me notice how I was carrying myself and made me think about you know how could I at least experiment or try to take these practices back into my busy world? [00:20:07.11] DAVID: And how have you taken them into like when you come back to Naropa and you're teaching a class here in the states - how do you take that idea of gross national happiness all the things that you've learned. How have you changed as a teacher and integrated it into your studies and your teachings? [00:20:23.05] ANNE: Well, you know in just a simple way I feel a lot closer to my students. The desire to spend more time just being really human together in conversations and class and so maybe that. [00:20:34.00] DAVID: Being human together in class - what? [00:20:35.20] ANNE: I mean we always do at Naropa, but you know. Just another level of dropping in together and just enjoying each other's presence. And learning from what's arising. [00:20:45.14] DAVID: Do you guys have tea together? [00:20:47.04] ANNE: Sometimes. Maybe I should bring tea to class. I haven't done that yet. So, I kind of just got this sense of that happiness is when we actually take the time to relax and be present is self-arising. You know itŐs the happiness - not a happiness I have to earn or chug around and make happen. ItŐs more like letting happiness happen. Together and also individually so that sort of you know some of my - so far sensory experimentation with just the - the collective world I experience there that they have generated. [00:21:15.12] DAVID: Yeah, you can say uh happiness naturally arises. If you're not in the way. [00:21:20.03] ANNE: Yes, and that's exactly you know sort of one of my takeaways. And also, I feel like itŐs - itŐs an important - the sense of practicing both the outer responsibility to the world, the inner making things happen as best as you can. Serve you community. And the interior values where you try to get out of our own way so that happiness rises so that we can share it. So those are sort of aligned and embodied you know itŐs a moment to moment sense of kindness to self and others. And one of the things I did - I do in Bhutan is I ask everybody I meet - what is gross national happiness to you? And every answer has been entirely different uh - and delicious and interesting. And the one that I - that sticks in my mind the most - is this young man for the Western sort of more remote part of the Bhutan who had finished high school and I was on a pilgrimage where I was walking around and he saw me as an elder and he rushed up to help me carry my - my bad and and I asked him so what is gross national happiness to you? And uh he said its - the number of people that I make feel happy in a day. [00:22:15.03] DAVID: Wow. [00:22:15.13] ANNE: So, I kind of liked that one. So, I thought I might leave us on that note. [00:22:20.07] DAVID: That does taste good. I got a question for you. So, we were talking about like gross national happiness - does the government have any like tests or evaluations they do on their citizens that they can measure happiness. How does Bhutan measure the happiness? [00:22:40.08] ANNE: Well, there is a couple of different ways that is happening at the current time. One is when the local decisions are being made in the villages. The village representatives - you know citizens of all kinds and all ages - come together and they - they actually have a grid that they fill out about how much something will affect them. You know if its perhaps a new local industry is coming in that valley. They'll actually have a grid that has all those qualities - those 9 domains and all those sub things about time - and so - and they'll grade those. So, they actually take the time to go through everything to decide what - what its impact will be over all - and then literally quantify that. And so that's a level which a local citizen is very involved in. Uh making those decisions. And you know itŐs - quantifying has been hard for them because they're very sort of heart felt culture and maybe quantification wasn't sort of the usual style but its - itŐs very much uh giving people power in the voice. And also, uh they do these larger national surveys - the one done in 2010, 2015 - so, well trained bright young people head out marching up and down the valleys and rivers and interview people. And these interviews take a long time. They can take uh like half a day or something and I actually was interviewed last year. They do interview a few people who are local visiting or residents and it was such a lovely - I mean I can't explain all the questions that we're asked, but it went on for a long time and it was so deep and it felt like this lovely conversation where somebody was actually interested in my experience from sort of beginning to end. And uh - so I got a little taste of what these questionnaires are like. Just the conversations themselves are good and I know they take the data - I mean they do quantify you know itŐs on the scale - just like the local villagers - ones. So, itŐs kind of a weird mix of you know numbers and heart. [00:24:16.09] DAVID: Yeah, itŐs a little bit of magic. A little bit of spirit and a little bit of science all wrapped up in one. Just kind of seeing what is beneficial for all and the land. [00:24:27.09] ANNE: Yeah and in the face of all these challenges which we've spoken about, so you know itŐs really very much - itŐs not like oh my gosh they've got a perfect place in the world and we are all struggling here. ItŐs very much as it is. You know? [00:24:37.08] DAVID: ItŐs like uh - small mind, big mind, but on a government level. [00:24:41.17] ANNE: Yeah. [00:24:42.01] DAVID: I like that. So, the practice of gross national happiness and how do you do it. It seems you gave us that story of the student helping you or the young kid helping you saw an elder. Just wanted to like help you along your way and he gave you the definition of trying to make as many people as happy in a day. What other kind of definitions have you heard that encapsulate the idea of what they're trying to do there? [00:25:09.23] ANNE: People have given different things. Some of them have talked about equity you know like everybody in our village, in our valley would be able to live well and that we would feel equitable as we live together. A lot of the answers along that line and many of them go into the inner practices you know - contemplative practices or the - you know the way that I'd be with others in my community. The way that I sort of hold my heart and mind so they - those are probably the two categories that people speak about quite a bit. [00:25:37.01] DAVID: Very cool. And you said you are going back soon, right? [00:25:38.22] ANNE: That's right. The students this year we're meeting in Thailand in late January and then we head into Bhutan with the inspiration of our fellow Royal University Bhutan faculty - we - lead the students around the country for about 3 weeks so they literally get to see a lot before they settle down and then become bio-regional in their values and study with fellow students. [00:25:59.08] DAVID: Awesome. Well we really appreciate you speaking with us today and we wish you a beautiful trip and to just soak in more knowledge about the - the gross national happiness and come report back to us later. [00:26:11.14] ANNE: Great. Thanks so much. [00:26:13.16] DAVID: Yeah. So, I'd like to thank Anne Parker who has spoken on our podcast today. She is a full time Naropa faculty member teaching in the Environmental Studies program so thank you for speaking with us. [00:26:25.14] ANNE: Thank you so much. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]