Alexis Grace  0:00  
Hey, everyone. I'm Alexis grace and this is the paper cranes podcast. I believe that we encounter God every day. whether we realize it or not, he can be found in the grandest of adventures in the smallest of moments. Paper Cranes podcast seeks out stories that show us how fast God really is one person at a time.

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the paper cranes podcast. I'm Alexis grace. We've been on a hiatus for

Thomas Cattoi  0:33  
months now.

Alexis Grace  0:34  
I think since March. I know I did release one episode sometime in April. But it's been a while since we've had this time together.

So today, I'm pretty excited. I have a guest with me. His name is Mr. Kutz boy, Mr. Katz, why would you like to introduce yourself?

Thomas Cattoi  0:57  
Thank you. Thank you for having me here. So my name is Thomas Qatari, I am a professor at the Jesuit School of Theology, which is part of the Graduate theological union in Berkeley in California. And as you can probably tell, from my accent, I grew up in Italy, but I've now been living and working in the United States for the past 20 years. And I teach with a variety of things at the school, but primarily, I teach early Christian theology. And I also teach inter religious dialogue, I also focus on questions of Buddhist Christian studies. So I could tell you a lot more, but I guess this is enough.

Alexis Grace  1:39  
That's super cool. So that's actually interesting, because, um, I got your name from one of my old professors, who also teaches a shame, basically, the religions of Asia, that was the first class I ever took with him. And he referred you to me. And that's how I found you. So thanks, again, for being on the show. Would you like to tell us a story?

Thomas Cattoi  2:03  
Yes, I could tell you a lot of stories. But I thought so you know, something, which is particularly inspiring for your audience, perhaps is, you know, about the time that I spent, you know, crane A few years ago, as many of you know, probably know, you know, Ukraine is a country which is divided along ethnic and religious lines. In fact, there has been a sort of low level conflict going on in Ukraine since 2014. Because the eastern part of the country, you know, is torn down by civil war, you know, between the Russian speakers and Ukrainian speakers. But I had this really great opportunity in the spring of 2013. So you think of that, it's already been seven years. So you know, to visit the Catholic University of Ukraine, in elite, Levy's city, which is in western Ukraine, not very far from the Polish border. In fact, it used to be in Poland before World War Two. But we visited the center of Ukrainian Catholic culture. And the university, which I visited is the only Catholic University, not only in Ukraine, but in the whole of the former Soviet Union. So it's a really unique institution. And it's part of, well, it's really the one sort of jewel in the crown of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Some of you probably know that Ukrainian Catholic Church is the largest Eastern rite Catholic Church in the world, you know, there are over I think, 21, different Catholic, right. And, you know, the Latin church is really only one of them. The Catholic Church in Ukraine, you know, the eastern Catholic Church in Ukraine is the largest one, and he has about five, 6 million people, and many of them also leaving the United States and in Canada, so I had the opportunity to visit this university for a couple of weeks and teach a course, in patristic, spirituality to the student there, you know, it so happened that the head of the department is a friend of mine, his wife used to be a student at my institution. So I've known that for quite a bit. And so I had a really amazing opportunity to get to know a sort of a reality within the church that perhaps many Americans are not really very familiar with. Because, you know, people just assume that your mass is going to look the same wherever you go throughout the world, but, you know, there are also rights which are different from the Roman right, you know, that we are used to in the West, in America, we need to, you know, so they, you know, this church has particular theological tradition and particular cultural tradition. So they kind of push it almost as a bridge between the western churches and the Eastern Orthodox churches. And, you know, I was reminded of what john paul Toole said in his encyclical on you know, ecumenism, you know, that the church has to breathe, to learn? And you know, and when you go there you go to a live reality. It's not some you just read on paper. Right? Wow, she, I could tell you a lot more. But you know, that was just a snippet, you know, of my experience there.

Alexis Grace  5:17  
Yeah. So, tell tell us a little bit about like, the, the things that you observed, um, what made Ukraine spirituality, so different from what you've seen here in the United States? Well,

Thomas Cattoi  5:33  
I think one thing, which is very striking is how, you know, the liturgy, liturgical practice really informs the spiritual life of, you know, the face of the practitioner, as you see, you know, the liturgies tend to be much more, much longer and much more elaborate than what most people see in ordinary Catholic churches nowadays, you know, in the past, it might have been different, you know, but, you know, most of the producers are sung, the hip preserved a very ancient tradition of chanting, which is maybe not as ancient as Grigorian challenge, but, you know, still quite ancient, but still, you know, what we're going to learn is not used in our parishes, you know, they still use that in most of their parishes. And so people are really familiar with, you know, their own theological tradition and their only surgical tradition. And, you know, people will reference it even in ordinary conversations in the classroom, etc. So you really feel that, you know, the liturgy is really a neat reality. And unfortunately, I have no, I don't always said this to be the case, either in the United States, or even in Italy, where I grew up, you know, so masses are, you know, sometimes, you know, for many people, you know, losses are more like an obligation to be fulfilled, rather than be a source of real inspiration, you know, so that is something they found was really striking there, and something I think we can learn from,

Alexis Grace  7:01  
oh, yeah, for sure. Um, you mentioned that there was a lot of conflict in Ukraine, would you say it was, it was, like, dangerous to practice faith? Or was it just that people felt so strongly about their patience, it tended to create?

Thomas Cattoi  7:16  
Well, actually, when I was there, the conflict was kind of more submerged, it kind of broke out the following year. But, you know, the conflict is, as I said earlier on is really along ethnic lines. Because, you know, Ukraine used to be part of the Soviet Union, until 1991, and it became an independent nation. So it's been almost 30 years already, but there are a lot of Russian speakers in the country, and especially in the eastern part of the country where I did not go, I have not been there, where, you know, many people, we are sort of looking towards Russia for a political support, and cultural support, whereas in the west of the country, people look more towards European Union and Poland, you see, and so there is very deep cultural divide within the country. And the other thing, I'm saying anything controversial, if I say that, in some ways, you know, this cultural divide is reflected in sort of the political divide. And some of the regions in the East have been trying to secede from travel credit, and actually become an independent country affiliated with Russia. And the situation is still very unstable. You know, so, of course, the Catholic Church has sort of really supported, you know, the struggle of Ukrainian people to integrate more with the West, you know, and so on one hand, you know, you have this very interesting religious diversity, but unfortunately, the reality is that some of the churches are not so interested in the queue, medical dialogue is optional. And so the choices are divided along ethnic lines, etc. So it is, in way, in many ways, you know, these teams suffered under this legacy of, you know, the Soviet times that is kind of perpetrating it in the present.

Alexis Grace  9:10  
Right. And then one last question for you, um, what was the church architecture? Like? Because I know, here in the United States, a lot of people often more than, like, the loss of traditional church buildings. Um, yeah, so what was it like over there?

Thomas Cattoi  9:30  
Well, you know, the churches that have been for the eastern rite are quite different from, you know, sort of what we, for the Roman Rite, Catholics are used to because, you know, if you enter into a sort of an Eastern rise church, you know, you always find it to be the sort of wall of icons is known as iconostasis separates the name from the altar. And so there is a very strong sense of the sacred Goodness of the little gene or something which is really celebrated apart from this word. And in some ways, I think they have really held on to this very traditional understanding of sacred space. See, in a way that perhaps, is not very much the case in the West. But even in the United States, you know, even in the I, you know, I used to live in Massachusetts, I'm trying to think of, you know, but even you know, Tennessee, they also there are some Orthodox churches in the, in the Boston area that still reflect this kind of architecture, you know, so you can see that too. Yeah.

Alexis Grace  10:42  
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing about your time in Ukraine. And thank you for sharing your time on my podcast, too.

Thomas Cattoi  10:51  
Of course, likewise. Thank you. It's great to be with you. Thank you, too.

Alexis Grace  11:02  
Thank you for supporting the paper cranes podcast. To listen to more like it, visit grexly.com and support our Patreon, visit www.patreon.com Ford slash Grexly.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai