00:00.00
Dave
Hello everybody. My name is Dave Jackson and you are listening to tales from the backlog. This is a video games review podcast where each week I'm joined by a guest to bring a game out of the backlog play it and discuss my guest today is a friend of the show returning for the second time. A professional voice actor twitch streamer and much much more and swoop racing champion 20 years running Mick Davis aka mick arcade welcome back Mick

00:29.95
Mick
Hello. It's a pleasure to be back and I got to tell you running the swoop races on Taris has been the greatest joy of my entire life. Ah.

00:39.87
Dave
It's good to have you back on the show today. Ah, we're going to talk about star wars nights of the old republic. Ah, which is an rpg developed by bioware and published by Lucas Arts for windows and xbox in 2003 for people who are listening and have not played star wars knights of the old republic henceforth probably known as KOTOR because I'm not going to say all those words the entire time. If you haven't played KOTOR. You do not need to worry. We're not going to spoil the story for you. This game has a very interesting and quite famous story around star wars and video game land. So we're not going to spoil it for you. You can check down in the show notes for a timestamp for when the spoilers begin. You can jump out at that point if you want to avoid being spoiled there so getting into what this game is. We've prepared some elevator pitches for the top of the show I say you can live out your jedi fantasy in this approachable star wars rpg. With 1 of the more memorable stories in all of star wars media nick what would you say it is ah it is real good star wars um.

01:47.27
Mick
Hey kids you like Star Wars Well I got some real good Star Wars for you right here come on in. Ah.

02:00.22
Dave
I played this the first time I played this on Xbox I don't like Xbox 3 sixty I guess back in 2007 or so this time around I replayed it on switch the switchport works mostly fine I crashed a couple of times but you'll have that with.

02:19.30
Dave
A lot of switch ports these days 35 hours for me to beat and that includes doing a good number of side quests. How about you nick where have you played this how long would you say a playthrough takes you.

05:30.70
Mick
Okay, um so I played it ah originally on the ah Xbox um on the first Xbox and I think my play times were in that 37 to like 45 kind of area.

05:45.71
Mick
It just depends on really how much I would go onto side quests and things like that because obviously depending on what you do when you go to the different planets. You can do a lot of side content or you can just. Bore through and go through the mainline content. So I First played it on Xbox but then I've also played it on switch which as he said it sort of works. Um, yeah.

06:08.43
Dave
Yeah, works well enough I beat the game you know? Um, okay so back in the day you you played it on the original Xbox what was it that made you want to play it was the was it the fact that it's bioware was it star wars fandom.

06:25.32
Mick
Oh is a thousand percent star wars fandom I had no idea who bioware was when I played this game the first time because I played it is essentially when it came out a buddy of mine.

06:26.82
Dave
What was it? Okay, okay.

06:38.88
Mick
Um, at the time who he's a couple years older than me and he had an apartment and across the street from the apartment was ah because this was a very small town that he was living in but across the street they had a local video store so you know I'd go like hang out with him on the weekends and stuff and like during the summer and

06:46.35
Dave
Man.

06:57.33
Mick
Went over and we were over at the video store just kind of goofing around looking at different stuff saw this game and said hey let's try a star wars game out man and we were hooked played it just and like all night like one of those like just stayed up all night playing it because we were just blown away by. How different it was and how cool it was because again 2003 like you didn't really get a lot of games that were doing this much less star wars games. Um I think at that point kind of the bar set for star wars was shadows of the empire on 64 so yeah, we we just loved it.

07:22.32
Dave
Who.

07:28.97
Dave
Right.

07:34.32
Mick
And and had a blast with it and eventually when I got an Xbox myself it was one of the first games that I got and just absolutely loved it. It and the sequel which is a whole another story.

07:45.18
Dave
Yep Yep, maybe a future episode on the show if I get around to playing it because I have them both on switch Now. So um, yeah for me Personally, this was also for me because I grew up as a giant Star Wars fan and kind of only recently in the last. Handful of years kind of fell off of Star Wars as a ah thing that I make my whole personality. You know shaped around and stuff but um, hell yeah, um, so so back then I I was not really someone who played this kind of game.

08:11.33
Mick
Ah I still have it. My entire personality is shaped around Star wars.

08:22.86
Dave
Um, but I was like you said I was looking for like cool star wars games and back in 2007 the closest thing that I remember was like I liked rogue squadron on the n sixty four and there were the the star wars.

08:25.36
Mick
Yeah.

08:39.49
Dave
Games on like the super Nintendo that were so difficult that I didn't think they were very fun yet there I mean they I that even higher those games are like fuck you difficult I think.

08:43.99
Mick
Dark souls level difficulty on those games. It. Ah. Yeah, they are brutal it I mean it's one of those games. You know you have like games that you've probably rented multiple times in your life that is one of those games or super empire strikes back rented it so many times i. I don't think we ever legitimately got far into the game we had to use like cheat codes and stuff from Nintendo power because it was just so brutal.

09:12.45
Dave
Yeah, and that was kind of my experience with shadows of the empire too like I I played that game a lot I don't think I ever beat the second level of that game so there maybe I got a little bit further because I remember doing a hoff level and stuff like that. So.

09:25.28
Mick
Yeah, there's the there's the initial one where you're doing the snow speeder and then you actually run around in the base.

09:31.67
Dave
Yeah, and I I don't think I ever got past that or there's like an early game train level I remember that so not not far. Yeah.

09:38.61
Mick
Yeah, that one is or manel is heart so insanely hard and then ah the boba fe Boss fight is brutal. He is so ridiculously hard.

09:48.20
Dave
So I don't even think I made it to bobafat I don't so yeah, so not a lot of like there wasn't a video game that I could like sinknc my teeth into the way that I really wanted to with star wars back then so in 2007 I played KOTOR for the first time and it's weird because in 2003 I had an Xbox and I loved star wars and I just never heard about this game because I think we were probably just playing halo at the time.

10:18.76
Mick
Um, I think you're right it that seemed to happen with a lot of Xbox games from my memory of it was halo just dominated it so much that things like at least from again my perspective.

10:34.90
Mick
Like Morwind kind of fell through the cracks for a lot of people coor did Fable did like it just there's so many games that seem to fall through the cracks at least like people found them eventually but like yeah Halo was just ruling the system.

10:48.18
Dave
Yeah, and then that's the other part of it after I kind of got tired of halo I found marwind and that was like the next two years of my life I just played marwind so 2007 I finally got around to playing KOTOR and I remember it's 2007 in particular because i.

10:53.62
Mick
Um, you need yep.

11:07.11
Dave
Had a very specific lifestyle in the summer of 2007 um I was in college it was the summertime I was taking one class I didn't have a job and so I would go to my one class I would come home and play KOTOR all afternoon then my roommate would get home. We would make hamburger helper we'd eat it.

11:26.26
Dave
3 to 4 times a week and we watched lost all evening together and so that was the summer coor in the afternoons lost in the evening class in the morning and I did that with 3 seasons of lost and both KOTOR games and it was a beautiful summer. Ah.

11:43.31
Mick
That's like picturesque. It's that one of those like you sit back and look and go it will never get better than this.

11:44.30
Dave
Wouldn't give to go back to that kind of life. Yeah, yeah, and I don't I don't think I've had hamburger helper since although I'm not against it.

11:55.15
Mick
Nothing wrong with it. No, it's like I said I had a very similar experience with you know, going to a buddy's house and playing it and then when I got it myself. It was just sitting back and just playing it for hours and hours and hours and like what happens if I go here what happens if I go there because it is a game of choice and.

12:11.34
Dave
In here.

12:14.90
Mick
Think at that point I hadn't played many games that were were games of choice outside of but like resident evil two Maybe where do I take the machine gun or do I leave it. You know do I take the backpack or do I leave like that was kind of the extent of choice in games. But this was just like.

12:26.93
Dave
Ah.

12:32.80
Mick
Everything you did matters.

12:32.98
Dave
Um, yeah, that's that's what they sold us and I think the other game like that was fable where your choices matter in that your character would become like like an angel or like a literal devil with horns on their head and stuff. But other than that it was.

12:38.49
Mick
Yes, sort of.

12:47.12
Mick
Yeah.

12:52.64
Dave
You know I like that game but anyway um ku to so how do you think like to give some quick opening thoughts here. How do you think KOTOR holds up here in 2023

13:03.83
Mick
I think I think it It's one of those weird things where I feel like it holds up pretty well because the way the story is told is is good like it's a good story. It's a solid story. Um, the gameplay at least.

13:14.57
Dave
Okay.

13:20.30
Mick
The first one and and you know the first mass effect is the same way I feel like the gameplay is a little clunky but it's something that bioware did all the way until mass effect 2 I want to say was a ah drastic shift in how they approached their their gameplay because. Like dragon age was like that Jade Empire was like that mass effect was like that. So I do think the combat could potentially be a touch off-putting for some people because it's kind of slow. It's not very action driven in terms of like you press a button you swing the the light saber. It's you press a button and then you kind of wait.

13:56.56
Dave
Yeah, if it.

13:58.50
Mick
And then the light saber might hit. Um so it's very D and D style in that regard. But I think it's good enough combat and the story and the characters um are good enough that can draw you in and it makes up for it again. Yeah, and this was even in 2003 I kind of felt like this because. You know you're playing something like you know, episode 3 on playstation 2 That's a completely different experience because it is like a more action based gameplay. But the story is the main focus of this game and the characters.

14:33.21
Dave
Yeah, yeah I think um roki is just losing his shit right now there. What's going on with him um, hold on.

14:40.80
Mick
Um.

14:42.70
Mick
Yeah, no worries.

14:48.99
Dave
Um, you are.

14:58.12
Dave
He's still going at it. Um, yeah, so I think that like playing it in 2023 I largely agree with you I think the story holds up and like I don't want to really get into the story a whole lot in any real detail right now. But.

15:10.29
Mick
Sure.

15:15.50
Dave
Um I was curious about how this story in particular would hold up when you already know what's coming like how things are laid out. Is it a well- constructed story and I came out of this replay thinking. Yes, it actually is. It's really pretty damn good and.

15:30.30
Mick
Um, many.

15:34.21
Dave
You know the story content that I'm getting from contemporary Star Wars stuff. The prequel trilogy was ah ah just ah, a trash fire of storytelling in my opinion. Um and or and or was but yeah and or was good.

15:47.90
Mick
Partially written by children because George Lucas asked his children hey what would you like to see and yeah, that's the thing.

15:54.72
Dave
Fun. Um, yeah, and and or was fun and what was the the new jedi games I played fall in order I thought that was pretty fun too. I haven't gotten around to Jedi Survivor yet but it's it's on the list. Um, this still holds up as a very good star wars story.

16:03.40
Mick
Yeah.

16:13.11
Dave
I agree with you. The gameplay is is very, um, it's strange it. It feels like I had a really interesting experience here I played this directly between Balder's gate 1 and two like.

16:26.65
Mick
Oh Wow So you're kind of in the mode of like those style of games because it is very much in in that sort of same style of of those games.

16:31.29
Dave
Yeah. Yeah, but like that's this year I played that like not back then so this year I played. Yeah I played baldersgate one for the podcast I played this for a guest appearance on our retro hangover and then I played balders gate 2 again for my podcast here.

16:40.80
Mick
Like now.

16:54.68
Dave
All bioware and all write in this like evolutionary line that Connects Balder's gate to mass effect. So That's really what I came out of this feeling like is like they made a very conscious effort to make. This game approachable for people who don't know everything about D and D and also make it good for a console and I think that really shows because the gameplay is so simple that it is completely and memorable and honestly like.

17:13.48
Mick
A.

17:27.68
Dave
About halfway through the game. You don't really have to think about what you're doing in combat a whole lot. So I yeah I was just going to say it's It's ah it's a cool thing to see that the story holds up but the gameplay I do not think has held up very well.

17:30.28
Mick
No, not at all I Oh sorry, go ahead.

17:44.78
Dave
Ah, just to you know, quick opening things at the top of the show.

17:45.60
Mick
Yeah, for no I agree I I Do think you can kind of touched on this I think the further you get in you get used to the combat. So. It's not as like bad and clunky like it still is what it is. But you're used to like okay I know what I need to do I Know how everything works I Know how the force powers work and this and that yeah so you can go through everything again. It's not engaging but you can sort of turn your brain off because every fight seems to go the same way.

18:15.57
Dave
Yeah, yeah, agreed so let us take our first music break of the episode and when we come back, we're going to set up the story of kotour so in knights of the old republic as the name. The old republic might suggest it is set. Thousands of years before the events of the skywalker saga which just real quick I want to say I love when star wars media is not set during the skywalkers saga I love to see yeah new ideas especially things that are not in that between episode 3 and 4 range.

18:43.18
Mick
I agree with you.

18:53.89
Dave
Because they have hammered that into the ground the well is dry I'm using too many metaphors but I was like this is completely separate new characters new dynamics of the jedi and the Sith are still here but like everything's new. The fountain is is flowing.

18:55.90
Mick
Yes.

19:12.38
Dave
For for new story ideas.

19:12.53
Mick
No I agree so much because in a lot of ways I think KOTOR gives us the sort of star wars that we kind of always wanted to see you know like you watch a new hope and ob b one references the clone wars and he references who Anikin was and how anekin was and things like that. So your mind goes into a certain direction of like what that looks like well then we got to see what it looks like and you know it wasn't quite what our level of expectation was and throughout the 90 s there was just so much expanded universe kind of content. You know the young Jedi order and.

19:39.55
Dave
And.

19:49.65
Mick
You know the young Jedi Knights books and all that kind of stuff the thron trilogy. So there's so much like cool content that was for star wars but then they showed us this and it was like oh this is this is amazing because like you could tell a completely unique story. You could do whatever you want to do with it and it's.

20:04.91
Dave
And.

20:09.31
Mick
What everybody likes it's like tons of jedi they're fighting tons of Sith not just like literally 1 dude even though it is Darth Vader and he's awesome. But you know they're not like old people they're they're actually like younger and capable and doing cool stuff so ship battles like it's all the best parts of star wars.

20:14.38
Dave
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:28.91
Mick
Without some of the baggage that Star Wars can carry.

20:30.36
Dave
Yeah, and especially that like that between episode 3 and 4 timeline where so many of these stories have taken place and in recent years like the the Jedi Fallen order and Jedi Survivor Storyline takes place during that time and. Not to say that they can't tell a good story during that time but there's a lid on what can happen because we already know how everything plays out and we know what the most powerful people in the galaxy are going to do so they're the ones who control how the the bigger story goes. So.

21:00.75
Mick
Yep.

21:06.19
Dave
Um, not that there's not any value in smaller stories within Star Wars but it is cool to just get a completely fresh timeline. You can do anything you want.

21:11.60
Mick
Yeah I agree and as you said you can tell these stories but you have to work really really hard to make them like engaging and gripping and grap because. If you don't You're just like I know what's I know these people are going to die or I know this guy's not around you know, No? Yeah, so it's like I appreciate you cal. However I I know you're.

21:31.90
Dave
Yeah, exactly like he's not like cal kestis isn't going to kill Darth Vader at the end of 1 of these games. It's just not going to happen. It can't happen. So.

21:47.26
Mick
Ultimately got to lose I didn't see you pop it up any in any movies or shows. So you're gonna die.

21:49.12
Dave
Yep.

21:54.15
Dave
Yeah, he's ah he's a he's a grizzled old man in one of the bars on tattooing in a new hope or something like that. Yeah, it be like.

21:59.90
Mick
That would actually be awesome if they did that it's sort of like I.

22:04.67
Dave
So guy that Luke cuts his hands off in the bar or something they'd be like oh that was cal though recon that or something.

22:07.56
Mick
Yeah, well, it's like I I think it was sort of a retcon how they've put ah Captain Rex in return to the jedi because there's like this older dude who's like super tan and has like a bushy white beard and now everybody's like that's actually Captain Rex from the club horse.

22:26.57
Mick
It's like I don't know if it really is him or not but a lot of people are like no no, no, that's him because he kind of looks like Tim Morse and with a white beard.

22:34.31
Dave
Yeah, ah is obbiwa that cut the guy's hands off, don't come at me star wars people just anyway in KOTOR you play as a republic soldier. Um, the game begins as your ship is being attacked. Ah you and this other soldier named carth. Jump into an escape pod and you crash on the planet Tarus on Taris ah, you join up with Karth and search the planet for a jedi named basttola who has escaped from the foing ship basttola has this power called battle meditation. Is based I imagine in my head as like she's playing starcraft while battles are playing or something like that and so she's a weapon and she cannot fall into the wrong hands. So you got to go find her um in this opening section. So. Um, you're on Tarus for a while and this is just kind of a thing I want to bring up about the pacing of this story. There's this early section in Tarus and there's another late game section that comes when you think the game is over. You have another like five hours section and these 2 sections I think are both too long. And they fuck up the pacing otherwise in the middle section I think the pacing is pretty good.

23:47.29
Mick
No I agree 100% I Think there's a point and I want to say when you get the the Sith uniform to go into the undercity of Taris and you end up with like. You go into the other area where there's like the rackhouls and there's like the people who kind of live ah like once I got to that point I was like am I just going to be on this planet the entire time because it it really does it just drags so long and like.

24:22.89
Mick
Once you've gone through it once you kind of know like what's what to do? what not to do and and stuff like that. Although there is some fun stuff like you know you could be the mysterious stranger and you could do all those battles which is fun and ah but you kind of quickly learn like oh I don't have to do side content I get just.

24:33.88
Dave
Aha.

24:41.73
Mick
Go do the main content.

24:44.67
Dave
Yeah, um, the the thing about that that early section on tars too is that at this point like your character becomes a Jedi in this game I don't think it's a big spoiler to say that. Um.

24:52.19
Mick
No I think they sell you on the back of the box actually.

24:57.85
Dave
Right? So you're living out your jedi fantasy like I think I said that in the elevator pitch. But anyway in this Tarris section. This is before you do any jedi stuff so you're just a dude in you're swinging metal swords and shooting blasters and stuff like that and it just it.

25:07.24
Mick
Yeah.

25:15.55
Dave
In your head you're like I am playing this game because I want to do Jedi Rpg shit when do I get to become a Jedi it's hour ten I'm still in this fucking city. So.

25:24.85
Mick
Yeah, no, it's it's brutal and I do think that's ah 1 of the other downsides is because even if you do know like okay I'm going to become a jedi so you can you know pick your you could pick more sword based abilities and attacks and things like that. But at the same time depending on what your starting class was you might be sinking a ton of points into blaster related stuff which when you become a jedi you're never using a blaster again I think there's actually penalties for using a blaster as a jedi but so.

25:47.14
Dave
Right. Yeah, absolutely not., But it's it's like the like the game is like smacking you on the hand with a ruler like dude use your lights saber come on. Yeah.

26:00.96
Mick
Yeah, and it's like but I don't have one I just have a shitty metal sword. What? Yeah, no, it's it is the 1 downside about anytime I replay this game is like oh cool I get to be here for literally ever because that is just It's it's terrible pacing. They fixed it a little bit in the second game because at least with that you have force powers. You just don't have a light saber in the very beginning. But even then it's a little too long before you get what you want.

26:32.85
Dave
Right? Um, so eventually you do find out that your character's force sensitive you find bastola. Ah you go to the Jedi Home planet of dantuine I believe is the name of the the Jedi Home planet. Yeah, you get an audience with the council.

26:48.83
Dave
And they send you out on the hunt for this thing called the star forge which is a weapon that can harness like the power of stars and do horrible. You know, dark side shit from it. Um there's also a sith lord named Darth Malik and ah. His old master named Darth Revn who are supposedly out looking for this too. Darth Revan has disappeared after a battle and so you're kind of following in their footsteps looking for this star forge weapon and that is the bulk of the early portion of the game. You go to 4 planets. You go to Tattooing Kashyyk damtooing and corruban and Manon is the other one so 5 planets in total looking for these maps that will lead you to the star forge location so you get to go on like a little tour of. Fun places that you probably already knew from various star wars media especially tattooing and kashik with all the wookies you right? yeah.

27:47.86
Mick
Oh yeah, well and dantuine's a a reference as well. You know Dan Tweed they're on dantuine. You know so like again, it's kind of cool that it was just like offhandedly mentioned in a movie and they're like we got the whole planet for you to walk around on so that was really nice I think.

28:01.83
Dave
Yeah, and it's it's cool to kind of give more life to some of these locations like especially kashik you heard you know you met 1 wokiee in the star wars movies and then now you get to go to a planet full of them.

28:18.43
Mick
Which is pretty cool.

28:20.67
Dave
Go out in the jungle and yeah, it's awesome. Um, and that spoilers that's one of my favorite places that you visit in the whole game is that that whole section on Kashyyk is a lot of fun. Um, yeah, so just some kind of thoughts about the story here before we we move into other sections. Um.

28:27.30
Mick
But.

28:40.10
Dave
You are joined by several characters in your quest. There are 9 other characters that can join you and you can form a party of 3 including yourself I think a lot of these characters have pretty interesting backstories and this is. Continuing from balder's gate but like really moving into like you know people sometimes talk about the side characters in Balder'sg gate people. Love the side characters in mass effect and this feels like um, another one of those ways that this game feels like an evolutionary step between the 2 the the characters that you meet are. Pretty memorable. Um and a lot of them have good stories.

29:16.47
Mick
I agree and I think one of the really cool things is the ability to deepen your relationship with the different characters so you get more of that backstory I Mean as you said you start first start running around with Carth and.

29:23.94
Dave
Yeah.

29:32.50
Mick
He's basically closed off to you and is just a giant dickhead. Um doesn't want to tell you anything and so you really have to spend time and raise your relationship and your your bond with him to get him to start opening up to you and and some of the other characters That's ah they're a little quicker to to.

29:51.45
Mick
Tell you stuff and and things like that. But I do really like that you do feel that closeness in that bond because yeah, you might just be running around for hours doing combat and things like that. But the ability to you know they'll have an opinion about something that you did or said Or. Just something that's going on and that leads to a whole thing a dialogue and you know more story and and it's really cool and they're all very unique and very different like I don't think any 2 of the characters are close to being the same.

30:17.66
Dave
Yeah, right? like you have a lot of representation from like the different species or races. However, they classify them in star wars. Have a couple of droidids but the 2 droids you pick up could not be more different from 1 another? Um yeah h k 47's a really memorable 1 He's a real he's a real bloodthirsty drid which is very different from ah you know the the c three pos and r two d two s of the world.

30:36.72
Mick
My Boy H k.

30:52.90
Dave
Um, super memorable I'm a big fan of mission and Zolbar mission is a a twiac girl and Zolbar is a wookie and they come as a pair and they are really great together.

31:03.00
Mick
Yeah, they're awesome. Um, they're they're super fun I Really like um Candis He's one of my favorite guys to use just because he it's so weird in a game that has like characters that are on the extreme ends of a spectrum like.

31:10.92
Dave
Yeah.

31:21.64
Mick
HK is obviously like the baddest of the bad characters that you can get but he's adroit so he does what you say ah in you know, like mission and karth and zolbar they're like the goody two shoes candra is like the real character because you know he's like yeah sometimes you have to do bad things.

31:24.56
Dave
Yeah.

31:41.29
Mick
That's the thing that you do and it happens like so I just appreciate his depth of character and he's a Mandalorian so you get that cool Mandalorian lore that at by this point we just had next to nothing on so it was really cool.

31:45.61
Dave
Yeah, right.

31:53.70
Dave
Yeah, exactly? yeah, so like it's it's one of those things you get to learn about mandolorian culture through talking with with Candras you get to learn about wookies by doing stuff with with zellbar and going to kashik and you get to learn about all of these. These different types of characters. This also kind of introduced I think the idea of like whenever you go into your ship you go around the ship and you can talk to all of your side characters hear what they think about what just happened do character like side quests for that.

32:27.74
Mick
And.

32:31.10
Dave
Um, all of them have different side quests that will um, kind of deepen your relationship with them. Give you some rewards and stuff which again it's It's something that like they did here and then they really explored and expanded this in the mass effect trilogy.

32:46.16
Mick
Yeah, they did it heavily in mass effect. They did it heavily in Dragon age. Yeah, it's just sort of the bioware way now is um they I I Want to say they've pretty much got it to a science at this point where it's It's good.

32:58.77
Dave
Yeah, 1 other thing I think I want to point out about this story and like there's a there's a couple reasons why I think this story is really interesting, especially compared to other star wars stories. We get. This game is full of Jedi and it's full of sith. And I think that this game in particular more so than most of the movies. Um and other games and stories I've experienced does a cool job of exploring like what is it actually like to be a jedi and all of the pressures you'll face because. You meet more jedi in here than you do in the original trilogy of of star wars and then when this game came out the prequel trilogy was still coming out. Basically so you meet more jedi and you meet people who fall into the dark side and you see how easily it can happen.

33:37.76
Mick
Yeah.

33:53.93
Dave
Um, you experienced that with Anakin in the prequels but you already knew that that was going to happen with some of the characters in KOTOR you get to see like oh this characters like master was a dick to them during training and it just. Sent them on this spiral to the dark side really easily. There's other jedi who like forsake the ways of the jedi because they're like hey this shit sucks I want to be a regular person. So I think that this is really cool how this game spends a lot of time examining all of that stuff like in the. Movies that we grew up with you know the skywalker of the Luke Skywalker story the jedi are portrayed as perfect basically for a long time until it wasn't until like the prequel tri trilogy when it's like oh the jedi made like horrible mistakes and they fucked this whole thing up.

34:36.35
Mick
Yeah, a thousand percent

34:49.61
Dave
Ah, but for a long time. The Jedi are presented in this like just they're like the white Knights of the galaxy they never make mistakes. They're incredible and this game is like hey being a Jedi would actually kind of suck.

35:00.65
Mick
Oh yeah, no I think that's one of the really interesting things and it's something that we got to see we explored more in the Clone Wars animated because we got to see more Jedi in a time of war because that's where this game is taking place. There's a war between the Jedi and the Sith so.

35:11.83
Dave
Either. Yeah.

35:19.73
Mick
They're not just the benevolent protectors that are just kicking back being like yeah life's pretty good. You know, no, you get to actually see the pressures and the struggles and the things that they have to deal with and as you said you know some of it's just like man. My master was a real dickhead I don't want to do this anymore I'm going to the dark side.

35:38.73
Mick
You get to see characters fall to the dark side. You get to see characters. You can redeem one of your side characters from the dark side and they can come back from it. You know like it's It's so deep and you also get to look at it and realize how nuanced the Jedi order is and it's like oh they're not.

35:55.81
Mick
All that some of them are just straight up assholes and just you know like no wonder you would fall to the dark side if you had to deal with this fucking guy like ah the sith are a little bit more 1 note which is kind of disappointing like you never meet a clever cyh.

35:56.63
Dave
Yeah.

36:11.59
Mick
They're all kind of stupid and just 1 note unfortunately.

36:14.56
Dave
It's it's kind of a way like when they wrote whoever wrote it George Lucas probably wrote how the sith like work There's not really a lot of room for expression within that when it's like they only care about power and their their duty in life is to kill their master. And then take on a padogan that will then kill them that's about that's Seth life.

36:33.16
Mick
Yeah, which is yeah which is just its other other people sense have added more nuance to the dark side into the sith and things like that outside of the rule of 2 and and expanded on it. So you know as like ah ah, just ah, a. Deep fan of star wars lore and like the force and how it is. It's like yeah, the dark side is a little bit more nuanced at least theoretically. So yeah, so that is disappointing but they do a really good job with showing the death and layers of the Jedi like you said which is very cool to see.

36:57.32
Dave
Um, and.

37:01.28
Dave
Yeah, yeah, speaking of Jedi and Sith this game also has a morality system you make lots and lots of choices about how you talk to people how you go about solving quests and all of those choices will. Give you dark side points or light side points. So if you donate money to someone to help them pay their debt. You'll get light side points if you kill a civilian you'll get dark side points and so you can kind of branch in the direction you want when you become a jedi you can. Ah.

37:38.67
Dave
Can be a jedi or you can turn over to the dark side and kind of role play that a little bit. Um I have played this game twice I did a light side playth through both times and it's mostly because the um the dark side just doesn't seem that interesting to me lots of. Dialogue options are very 1 note or very like very black and white will say the light side option will be like hello I understand you're in distress. What can I do to aid you in these trying times and then the dark side option will be like fuck you I'll cut your head off if you don't tell me what I need to know right now.

38:17.21
Dave
And it's like like that's kind of an exaggeration but it's not really an exaggeration.

38:21.46
Mick
No is it's it's it's kind of spot on and and I think that's so this game I feel and I believe canonically you follow the light side path like that that from my understanding both both coach or games. Ah.

38:31.80
Dave
Probably yeah.

38:38.67
Mick
The canonical path is light side. Um, which I understand ah because there's just no death to the dark side and obviously if you go through the dark side version of this game. It's going to be much quicker because you just essentially cut yourself off from like a lot of story and.

38:58.61
Mick
You know extra side stuff because you either kill people or alienate yourself from them. You're almost all of your teammates hate everything you do So you don't deepen your relationship with them so you lose out on their story. Um, so.

39:09.15
Dave
I thought.

39:15.60
Mick
Yeah, it really is just a because you want to use like dark side powers without a penalty and that's fine. But even then like the dark side ending is kind of may.

39:23.33
Dave
Yeah, it really seems like you would I would only do a dark side playthrough out of pure curiosity not because it seems like it would be fun to role play.

39:34.50
Mick
It's it really isn't that that fun just because again it doesn't add anything to it. You don't get more story because you go dark side I think the only place where you might get a little bit more is on the Cyth Academy on Koraban but even then.

39:47.97
Dave
Right.

39:52.34
Mick
When you're a light side and you're trying to appear like your dark side. You're getting more out of that because again, you're not killing everybody. You're actually like talking to them and learning and solving puzzles and problems and getting more knowing more about a planet like I want to say there's like 3 or 4 times on. Um.

39:58.13
Dave
Um, right.

40:10.69
Mick
On Taris where if you do dark side choices. You just lose like 2 hours of story because you're not following down this quest line because you're like fuck you I'm going to kill everything which again, it's just so 1 note and boring I've always wanted them to make a star wars game that if you actually go to the dark side.

40:14.33
Dave
Who. Yeah.

40:30.24
Mick
There's full story for that and not just like 1 point in the game where it'll alter the last couple hours of the game.

40:37.56
Dave
Yeah I can't really think of a star wars game that that does that um because the jedi fall in order games. You're following a story. You don't have agency in what side you're on these ones the the co tour games you can pick the dark side. But. Like you said you'll you'll miss out on a bunch of stuff. Maybe that new open world game. They're making if there's a I don't even know if there's Jedi in that game.

41:00.48
Mick
Maybe I don't think it is ah there's 1 other game where you could choose like light light side abilities and dark side abilities. Ah, which was the jedi academy games. Um, but to be honest.

41:10.47
Dave
Oh right right.

41:15.40
Mick
There's just a point in the story where you basically choose if you're light and dark. You could have all dark side abilities and choose the light side path once you get to that certain story beat and it doesn't matter. But for that whole time you could be like forced lightning and choking people and all that and it's just like yeah whatever. So yeah, it's just and.

41:34.85
Mick
That's the 1 thing like and I guess it's it's just really really hard to do with with nuance and with a game is and add depth to that because it is the the force. The force is very binary. It is the light side and the dark side I know people are be like no Joli Bindo is a gray Jedi know. He's not.

41:38.47
Dave
Yeah.

41:53.99
Dave
No yep I'm glad you mentioned that like.

41:54.35
Mick
He's not a gray Jedi he's just a light side force user. There is a difference. There is no such thing as a gray jedi with the force.

42:04.58
Dave
Binding or nature of it because this morality system Really only works if you pick a side and hammer it too like if you're in the middle. You're not going to get the benefits of either side. You're just going to be kind of a centrist and fuck you for being a centrist I Guess so.

42:11.70
Mick
Um, this is yeah.

42:18.34
Mick
No, that's pretty much how it how it reacts like this game kind of forces you you have to be 1 extreme or the other because yeah I I am of the belief that is how the force works like because I'm trying not rant too long on this because.

42:36.20
Mick
I know it's a really popular thing in today's age that we like romanticize villains or people say like well a true jedi master is someone who could use the dark side and not have it corrupt them. But as we've seen that's not how it works the dark side really is the quick and easier path the more you use it.

42:51.20
Dave
Yeah.

42:53.51
Mick
The more it's harder to not use it the further you fall down the rabbit hole. You can come back from it but it's always there nagging and gnawing at you. So that's one of those things like there's no inbetween. There is the light there is the dark.

42:55.78
Dave
Yeah.

43:06.40
Dave
Yeah I guess I thought of another um Star Wars game where you get to do dark side stuff and it's the the force unleashed games but those are those are just kind of like Jedi Power fantasy combat games. It's not. It's not role playing at all. Yeah.

43:12.22
Mick
Oh that's true. Oh yeah, rip The start destroyer out of orbit because oh boy, that's fun though. Is you know.

43:25.94
Dave
Yeah, um, anything else about the story and KOTOR that you think is bringing up here in the non-s spoiler part.

43:32.21
Mick
I will say this um because I don't think this really spoils anything. There's a lot of unique things that you can do on each of the planets and there's a lot of rich story and a lot of rich lore involved in each of the planets like on Kashyyk you get to learn a lot about like the wokies and their history and. Things that they're dealing with you know on corband you get to learn about like the history of all these dark lords of the sith and all that kind of stuff and it's all really really cool. Lore stuff. The downside to it is like it really has nothing to do with the story of the game. So if you're a big star wars fan. It's awesome to see all of this stuff.

44:01.70
Dave
Man.

44:06.88
Mick
But if you're just like yeah like Star Wars Okay, not most of this stuff has like no impact on the story and you're just like and whatever. That's the only kind of like downside is like you could do a lot on these planets that doesn't really make a difference.

44:11.41
Dave
Right? Yes, yep.

44:22.53
Dave
Yeah I will give them credit for like really fleshing out history and world building in here. Um, the you know rpgs are usually full of this kind of stuff. You're always picking up. Notes and text logs or whatever that explain the history of the place that you're in or some person that you're looking at a statue of and this game's full of that stuff too for sure. Yeah.

44:40.48
Mick
Yes, which is super cool but again like doesn't have a lot of impact on the game sometimes which is fine.

44:46.61
Dave
Yeah, yeah, and we're intentionally like leaving out giant parts of the story here. We'll continue that in the spoiler section for sure. But you're just gonna have to trust us I Guess that there is some really interesting stuff that we're. Steering clear of right now in the non-spoiler part. Yeah,, let's see so let's talk about how this game looks and how it sounds.

45:07.69
Mick
It's very hard. This.

45:17.44
Mick
Just who.

45:19.91
Dave
I Just get this out of the way real quick I don't think this game's aged very well in the visual department some games from this you know early two thousand s Era still look decently good right now I don't think this game looks great anymore.

45:32.76
Mick
This is no that this is one of those games that when you get it on Steam you instantly look for like a mod to boot to make the graphics look better because yeah, this aged really poorly when it came out. It looked great. Um.

45:47.89
Dave
Yeah, could yeah you got big open zones of places to run around. You're like I'm running through the desert in tattooing and now you play it and it's like I'm running through this completely empty desert in tattooing. It's just a giant screen.

45:50.47
Mick
And it was awesome.

46:03.59
Mick
Yeah, yeah, there's just nothing here.

46:07.69
Dave
Yeah, um, it's it's cool how you know the places that you go do look like you feel like they should like you you go to tattooing and you're like oh this looks you know I recognize this from the movies and stuff. You go to Kashika and you see all like the tree villages and stuff like that that the wookies are living in. You're like this is cool. This is very different from everywhere else. But ah the places where I think it's age really poorly are the faces look they look like early two thousand s 3 d faces. Um.

46:35.60
Mick
Oh yeah.

46:42.94
Dave
In the environments. You know it is an older game. So back then they didn't have the processing power to have a bunch of stuff filling up all the places you go but it does stand out now that like you know, walking on those catwalks in Kashik there's nothing on them. It's just maybe there's a treasure chest every now and then.

47:01.39
Mick
Yeah, maybe ah that it's one of those things that they did a great job like you said everything feels unique because Corraban is a very dry planet but you know it's kind of desert ish.

47:01.90
Dave
Like some people standing there but nothing else.

47:17.34
Mick
Or has desert aspects but it looks very different from tatooine. So everywhere looks different. It feels unique which is awesome. But as you said there's a lot of man. There is nothing here like there like on Taris for example, when you first kind of leave and you're in the the over city part.

47:17.68
Dave
Um, right.

47:35.60
Mick
It's just this long open area. There's a few people standing around some you can talk to some are just kind of like mpcs who are there talking to themselves and it's just like Wow There's a lot of nothing here.

47:49.97
Dave
Yeah, um, I'll ask you since you're a professional voice actor. What do you think about the voice acting in this game.

47:59.32
Mick
Um, some of it is excellent, but it's also some of the actors who have sort of remained really relevant in the industry. My example of that would be bastila.

48:10.72
Dave
We have.

48:15.10
Mick
Ah, who's voiced by Jennifer Hale and she is a legend in the industry and she is awesome. But then other folks, you can tell like oh they they didn't really do a lot after this or you know this was like their first or second role like it was an early role for them like so there is that mix like some.

48:19.87
Dave
Ah, yeah.

48:33.47
Mick
Some of the voice actors are incredible. Some of them are just like did you just do audiobooks before this like what did you do?? Um, and I do sort of understand it because it's one of those challenges is a voice actor that you sometimes face particularly if it's ah a. Property that you're not familiar with um, a lot of the things that you have to say or talk about and treat like serious and real just sounds like nonsense like some of the stuff and that you would have to say for this game you know, literally sounds like we've got to stop the goopy gups.

49:08.77
Mick
From coming into most icely Otherwise the Tuscan raiders are going to be Bop all over the stampop and it's like you have to say that shit seriously and act like it matters like if you don't know anything about Star Wars. It's just a gig. It's just a job for you. You're like what the fuck is this shit I'm supposed to say.

49:24.64
Dave
Yeah.

49:27.65
Mick
You know it's sort of like I think the way I could compare. It is like a way a lot of people talk about Star Trek the next generation. Um, where it's a lot of ah what they call like trekno babble because they'll say a lot of like tech sounding shit that just like it sounds like nonsense because it's not real technology. They're talking about.


49:47.64
Mick
But because they use it so much. You're just like what the fuck are they saying So I do think there's a little bit of that here. Um, but yeah Jen Hale kills it. She's awesome in this.

49:49.90
Dave
Um, yeah.

49:56.15
Dave
Yeah I I came out of this I didn't think that like the individual voice actors were bad or anything like that. It's just it feels like this is from an era where voice acting in video games was super hit and Miss and I'm not sure about like.

50:09.87
Mick
Yes.

50:13.76
Dave
Was it a voice direction issue or is it just like hey all these people recorded their lines extremely separately from one another and so like you can tell they're not talking to each other sometimes it sounds like they're not even responding to somebody saying the line to them. It sounds like.. There's this is my line I'm going to read my line I don't have great context for what's going on in the scene I'm just reading my line and this kind of sounds like that in this game.

50:39.20
Mick
Yeah, no that my guess is they they had them all individually hit the booth with just a freaking bible worth of text because again the um, ah depending on the character. You know so somebody like Carth who is.

50:49.44
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

50:56.26
Mick
Kind of present from the beginning of the game until the end of the game bastil is the same way they had so much dialogue and then you're also having to do it. Okay now actives as if they were Evil Okay, now act as they were good. Okay, act if they were in the middle. Okay, tell this part of your backstory but be angry tell this part but be like aloof. You know like so I think it was just so much and ah so yeah, it's a challenge. You could definitely tell with like some of the Sith Ah you know, kind of npcs like the extras Like. Um, hey go watch like the a new hope and listen to how those British guys do the Sith Holds Yeah, do something like that because all of them are like the same British accent and it's it's kind of hilarious's.

51:34.87
Dave
Ah.

51:42.52
Dave
It's also worth noting that your character doesn't talk in kotor. So yeah, and and so like and the your party members don't often talk to each other.

51:43.32
Mick
Ever which is takes you out of it sometimes.

51:55.30
Dave
So a lot of times it does sound like someone is just talking at you as the character just because they're they're not responding to something that you said really so I will I will say it was funny how they do the voices for all the different species that don't speak english.

51:58.80
Mick
Um, and.

52:14.76
Dave
In in here. So there's people doing wookie voices. There's people doing I Forget the I forget the race that's doing that that do but do Couldoo be you that voice? Yeah, the romanians.

52:26.19
Mick
He Ah yeah, the Rhodians yeah likereido. Yeah.

52:29.95
Dave
Kind of kind of funny how like some of those characters do that voice and then you'll go talk to another one of those would you say the Rodians you'll talk to another Rodian and it will just sound like me I'll be like what's up.

52:41.83
Mick
Yeah, yeah, what's going on. Yeah, it's one of those things like I Ah I appreciate it because it is on so on a scale at that time.

52:51.84
Dave
Yeah.

52:52.17
Mick
It's incredible because it's like there. There's so many voices. There's so many characters that you can interact with some of it's just like oh nice little quick conversation. Some of it's like you can talk to this guy for like 15 minutes and but yeah, some of it. Not great like that you could definitely tell there were it was a wide.

53:02.34
Dave
Yeah.

53:11.16
Mick
Range of voice talent for this particular game.

53:13.12
Dave
Yeah, that particular like Rhodean voice only has like like 2 or 3 lines too that just repeat. They alternate back and forth. But the wookie sound good. Whoever was doing the wookie voices. They gave their all. It sounds great. There's a.

53:19.65
Mick
And.

53:31.43
Dave
And don't know what the species of Yodas is called but there's yeah, there's there's one of them. They sound like a a little yoda dude. And yeah I also want to shout out something I think is great and something that I think is really important for Star Wars media which is sound effects and music.

53:32.33
Mick
I Can't remember.

53:50.64
Dave
Obviously music in Star Wars is super iconic and just using Star Wars music and little Star Wars You know little musical stings as you a scene opens or something like that. It all sounds great and then Star Wars is full of iconic sound effects.

54:11.54
Dave
Ah, Lightsabers Star Wars Blasters sound like Star Wars Blasters wookies tie fighters. All of these iconic sounds are perfect and that kind of that stuff really sets like the there's like this intangible like oh this is Star Wars. And I think sound plays like a huge part in that.

54:27.97
Mick
No I agree I think it when you talk about immersion that is one of the things I think that can get you immersed into Star Wars so quickly is those familiar sound effects and just like instantly you're like yes that this is a Star Wars game to be honest.

54:37.14
Dave
Then.

54:47.53
Mick
Um, you know so I played after this game after Kotor and KOTOR 2 you know they did Jade Empire I played a little bit of it. It was cool I just you know didn't play a ton of it. But when mass effect came out I was like ok here we go like a high a better version of ko or let's go I couldn't get into it and I a big part of that was. The lacking of familiarity with like the the comfort stuff of star wars which is a lot of the sound effects and you know so it just it was hard for me to get into it because I'm like well ah you know and the blasters don't sound like I think a blaster should sound and things like that. So.

55:11.93
Dave
Yeah.

55:23.68
Mick
Yeah I know that's weird to say but yeah that that was one of the things that made it tough for me.

55:23.97
Dave
Yep. Well it is I mean like you and I have grown up with star wars is like a big part of our lives and so the sound effects that are accompany it and the music that accompanies it like when you boot up KOTOR for the first time you start a new game. You get the big text scroll at the beginning just like a.

55:43.19
Mick
1

55:46.10
Dave
Movies and as soon as that starts I'm like oh yeah, I'm I'm at home here. So um, yeah, you know aesthetically I think that like some parts have aged better than others. But I think the stuff that really matters I think they did get right.

55:48.51
Mick
Yeah, chewy or home.

56:04.69
Dave
More often than not.

56:05.60
Mick
What one of the little touches and I wasn't really sure where else to to add this but 1 of the really touches that I really like is the um ability to pick your light saber color outside of like green or blue like the fact that you could get purple.

56:17.50
Dave
Um, oh yeah, right.

56:23.14
Mick
Or you could get you know Yellow or yeah that that was a really cool thing that made it feel more of a personal Star Wars because I'm able to make the choice of well what if I want a purple light saber or a yellow light saber and you could do that So that's just one of those small things that really.

56:36.24
Dave
Um.

56:40.65
Mick
You know it's the dream. Everybody had it's like if you could you know nowadays I mean can go to galaxy's edge and make a light savever or order a lightaber from a billion websites but in in 2003 we wanted to make our own lightsaber and we could.

56:49.90
Dave
Ah, yeah, and the the new Star Wars games The the Jedi survivor and stuff is like you can do whatever the hell you want with your light saber. It's pretty sick. What ah what color did you go with.

56:57.30
Mick
Which is pretty great like that is one of the one of the things that pulls it in closer for me Purple purple is my favorite color. So yeah anytime I get a chance. It's all for.

57:07.10
Dave
Yeah, me too got to go like my man Mace windu. You know purple is like one of my like top favorite colors too and I I think Mace windu plays a pretty significant role in that. Yeah.

57:18.69
Mick
Heavy fuck. You know why he chose the purple lightsaver.

57:25.78
Dave
Because he um, he wanted to have a color that no one else had right.

57:30.15
Mick
It's because he knew that they were doing the big fight scene at the end of attack of the clones where there's you know it's Obbi 1 and anekin they're rescuing them and there's a bunch of jedi fighting battle droids and he wanted to make sure that you could tell.

57:40.58
Dave
Yeah.

57:45.67
Mick
Who was who he was in the battle so he wanted to stand out from the blue and the green and that's why he is purple because he's talking to George Lucas and he's like you know and George Lucas is like ah you know, go good guys have ah blue and green and bad guys have red and he's like what about purple and George Lucas was like think we could do purple.

57:45.68
Dave
Now I will.

58:05.66
Mick
So yeah, that's literally why purple light savers are a thing because ah Sam Jackson was just like what about her and his light saber has bad motherfucker engraved on to it which is the best thing a gym.

58:11.40
Dave
Yeah, yes, it does god bless Sam Jackson

58:24.26
Mick
Ah, gem of a man.

58:25.42
Dave
So the gameplay in KOTOR is based on the wizards of the coast star wars role-playing game which is itself based on dungeons and dragons third edition. So it's not as like directly d and d as balder's gate. But it is based on d and d. It's based on dice rolls. It's based on you know the length of an attack round and how many attacks you get per round and stuff like that. It is real-time with pause combat so you kind of issue commands and everything plays out in real-time. You can pausesit at any time to change what you want a character to be doing or to like queue up an ability or something like that. Um I want to point out because on my balders gate episodes I kind of like. I didn't trash them for having bad combat but I did kind of trash them for not trying to teach people who don't know d and d because in balders gate 1 and 2 they're like you if you don't know the rules good luck. Read the entire manual or something. Ah.

59:15.94
Mick
Any.

59:26.72
Mick
Yeah, it's it's brutal.

59:31.95
Dave
It' is if you're familiar with second edition D and D it's like it's It's great for you but but not for me KOTOR though is much more streamlined much simpler like extremely simple compared to balder'sg gate. Ah 1 and 2 and 3 for that matter. Ah, so for people who don't have history with D and D. You can just jump into KOTOR and learn the combat and you'll be just fine.

59:57.40
Mick
Yeah I think they do a pretty decent job of explaining it to you introducing it to you. They they bring you along relatively slowly in terms of you know difficulty for battles and you know here's where you would use a grenade in battle here's where. Arranged person would be useful like they really do a good job like the the very very opening part of the game when you're on the ship before you go to Taris I think does a great job of kind of laying out like this is how you play This is how you use the abilities.

01:00:25.37
Dave
Yeah.

01:00:31.68
Mick
This is the importance of using and unlocking certain abilities. So they do a really good job. So I don't I don't think like anybody would just not understand how to play if you start at the beginning of the game.

01:00:41.31
Dave
Yeah, and it's it's so simplified compared again to Balder's gate where you'll have like hundreds of spells that you you don't maybe you don't need to memorize all of them. But you're going to come across you know dozens and dozens and dozens of spells across the course of a game. In KOTOR. There's like I don't know 15 abilities that you can like learn and then upgrade throughout the entire game which I think is too simple in the grand scheme of things. There's basically like your ranged fighters your melee fighters and your droidids.

01:01:06.13
Mick
Yeah.

01:01:18.92
Dave
They all have like their own version of the same 5 abilities. Basically so it it ends up being a little bit too simple for me. But I do appreciate that they're like hey we're gonna put this on consoles. We want to reach the star wars audience not just the d and d audience we gotta make sure people can play this and. They did that at least.

01:01:38.62
Mick
Yeah I Do think if you didn't have force abilities in this game like if you were not playing a ah character who gets to use the force and combat would be mind numbing and would be terrible because there's just no flavor to it other than.

01:01:47.52
Dave
Yeah, oh yeah, awful. Ah.

01:01:53.53
Mick
Well I did my power attack I guess I'll do quick attack and you still do a lot of that even as a Jedi but at least you can sprinkle in abilities here and there so it is the saving grace. But if you didn't have that yet. It would be it is too simple. They could have gone a little bit more complex or like you know to to.

01:01:57.68
Dave
Yeah.

01:02:12.71
Mick
Quote stars you know you could take your first step into a larger world once you become a jedi but you kind of don't it's sort of like here's your force powers go for it and and it's just you do pretty much the same 3 or 4 things every battle.

01:02:22.92
Dave
Um, oh yeah.

01:02:28.79
Dave
Yeah, um, you've got your you know once you become a Jedi you get the ability to use cool stuff like you can disable Droidids. You can do light Saber throws you can do Flurry attacks you can if you go to the dark Side. You can do like force lightning and mind control and stuff like that. You got your force push and of a lot of the classic Jedi Powers Once you become a Jedi in this game something I think is cool like early in the game you you're just a dude with a metal swordre and a blaster and you're capable during that time but then like halfway.

01:03:00.96
Mick
Hey yeah.

01:03:05.60
Dave
2 thirds of the way through the game. You're a jedi you're a force of nature and I really like that power curve because if I'm a jedi I shouldn't struggle in combat fighting some animals or yeah.

01:03:14.25
Mick
No by the I think by the time you get to probably your third planet looking for the star forge at that point you feel pretty badass. You know you're like okay like I've got enough abilities that things are are relatively easy like you said most.

01:03:27.12
Dave
Ah.

01:03:33.35
Mick
Most fights you're kind of cutting through things. Especially you know if you've gone like Destroy Droid and disabled Droid like packs of droids. You're like nothing I got this and you're just taking them out left and right which I feel like that's how you should feel as like playing as a Jedi character you should feel really strong.

01:03:50.00
Dave
Um, yeah, yeah.

01:03:51.82
Mick
Except for when you're facing another force using character. So like the battles with the sith or the dark jedi those are more challenging but not like you know, backbreakingly difficult. It's enough of a challenge at that point where you feel engaged in the combat and in the battle. But everything else they're kind of chumps like you're you're just cutting through them. It's even more so in the second game like once you get further into the second game especially if you're dark side. It's over you've beaten the game and you still got 10 hours to play because nothing can threaten. You.

01:04:13.54
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:04:28.50
Dave
Um, yeah I got to a point in this game where there was like one combat encounter that I can remember and it was like a.

01:04:37.90
Dave
Like a security droid or something like that that wiped my party several times. Um I was able to puzzle my way through that encounter the rest of the time I was kind of on autopilot with the combat including in the final boss. It's just you get to a point where nothing can really touch you and you can.

01:04:55.40
Dave
You can just posit and heal anytime you want. So if you have a bunch of healing items. You're also just going to be fine. So.

01:04:57.79
Mick
Yep, yeah, it's one of those things that you pick up pretty quickly as you go through? you're like oh this is what I need to do with terms of healing stuff. Got it. Ah yeah so I don't know I think the only real struggles I would have would be like.

01:05:06.64
Dave
News.

01:05:13.68
Mick
The surprise fight with a sit like early on like there's I I think it's like the first planet that you go to or the second planet you'll kind of like walk into a room and there's a dark Jedi there and it's you're still really early in the game. So you're not that strong so that tends to be really tough. But.

01:05:32.63
Mick
As you said once you get later in, you're just you're basically unstoppable, especially if you have other Jedi in your party.

01:05:38.36
Dave
You're I was just going to ask you like? um you have a bunch of interesting characters like you can have a whookie and you can have an assault droidid an assassinroid on your team. You have a mandalorian you can take with you. That's these you know these warrior people. Um. Did you find any reason to not just roll with three Jedi though. No.

01:06:00.88
Mick
Not really know. Okay, um, but yeah, no like I like light side 3 jet or 4 jedi nothing stops you.

01:06:34.72
Mick
Because you can and like here's my healer. This guy's going to be my healer and like status buff guy. This person's going to take out droids. This person's going to. You know be a lights saber expert like yeah, no, there's some points that it's just no, no point to not use the Jedi unless you just.

01:06:42.95
Dave
Even.

01:06:52.70
Mick
Really like interacting with certain characters or.

01:06:52.96
Dave
Right? So there were a couple of planets where I would be like you know what? I'm not going to take all the jedi I'm going to take you know I'm going to take zaalbar and I'm going to take someone else and just just roll in like try to make this a little bit more interesting because yeah like we've said if you have 3 jedi in the party.

01:07:12.21
Mick
No, especially like because bastla has some really good abilities and yeah one by the time. Yeah, there's no point. The only reason you would ah carrying like 1 of the droids is.

01:07:12.60
Dave
Nothing is really going to stop you. You know you'll be fine. Um.

01:07:25.69
Dave
Um.

01:07:29.47
Mick
Useful because they can unlock doors and stuff like that is kind of the only real reason.

01:07:30.43
Dave
Yeah, yeah, there are sections in the game too where you'll have to take like a specific party or like some people won't be available to you. So then you mix it up then as well. But yeah, yeah, why would you? Why would you not take.

01:07:40.15
Mick
And.

01:07:49.85
Dave
Easily your 3 most powerful characters with you if you're at all read about combat you know? um.

01:07:50.97
Mick
Oh yeah, no I agree. It's just yeah, that do yourself a favor just take all the Jedi every time your bpi you'll be fine.

01:08:03.33
Dave
Yeah, yeah, um, so again, this I think that this combat feels like bioware figuring out how to do this real time with pause combat this d and d based combat on consoles. Um, as opposed to where they came from with Balder's gate and then as um I don't remember the second game. Well enough to say confidently if it's any different in the second game. But definitely when they get to mass effect and then mass effect 2 in particular it was like okay they they got this. They figured out the console rpg. You know.

01:08:39.90
Mick
Yeah, no, there's there's not a huge change from the first game to the second game a little bit with ah distance closing abilities like they they add a little bit more of that. But like your big forced leap. You'll just be like leaping from enemy to enemy which is.

01:08:55.82
Dave
Yeah.

01:08:56.64
Mick
Pretty cool. Um, but other than that it's yeah, not really, It's basically the same almost exact same combat.

01:09:02.40
Dave
You just reminded me of how you leap like in this game. That's one of the abilities you unlock is the ability to leap across the entire map when you like start combat with an enemy and it's very funny because it's this is a game from 2003

01:09:09.55
Mick
That's terrible.

01:09:15.14
Mick
Yeah, oh yeah, it's super super clunky looking. Did you go ah 1 light saber 2 single ones or 1 double one I did too.

01:09:26.16
Dave
I think I went double light saber if I remember. Yeah.

01:09:31.72
Mick
That's my go to is double light saber which once why wouldn't you You know you're going to deal so much more damage with that.

01:09:39.39
Dave
Yeah, um, you can also go like dual wielding light saers which is cool too and cool and flashy. You get you know, 2 different color light saberers if you want just go to town but I always you know it's the. It's the little kid in me that saw Darth maul and was like that's the coolest fucking dude I've ever seen.

01:09:54.35
Mick
Yes, this is the I so I it's always strange when I tell people this or people you know I'm like I love the phantom menace is literally one of my favorite star wars things ever and people like wow it's terrible Jar Jarr and I'm like no no, no, no, you don't understand. That was a star wars movie that basically isn't a skywalker saga movie. It's just like here's Jedi they're fighting dark jedi they're fighting droids. They're just doing their thing. Yeah Anikin's annoying but what he doesn't really matter in the in infant a minutes like it's more obi one and quaigon story. So and.

01:10:31.61
Dave
Ah.

01:10:32.92
Mick
Darth Maul is literally the coolest star wars villain next to Darth Vader like I have him tattooed on me. He's so cool like I have multiple things signed by Ray Park near me like as yeah you see that red light saber boom boom you're just like.

01:10:35.13
Dave
Yeah, nice.

01:10:48.75
Mick
This is the coolest thing I have ever seen in my entire life.

01:10:51.96
Dave
Yeah, absolutely so we transfer that to this game with the double lightsaber for sure. Yeah, um, yeah, any anything else about the gameplay that we think is worth mentioning. Yeah it to.

01:10:54.33
Mick
Yeah, got got to.

01:11:01.87
Mick
No I think it's pretty straightforward and you know it's not yeah, there's not a lot super depth wise like some of the force powers get kind of cool particularly the dark side ones because you get like from forced lightning you get like forced storm or something where it's just.

01:11:20.54
Mick
Massive lightning bolts are striking all the enemies in the area but again like that. Yeah and it's just so late in the game by the time you would actually get that ability that yeah, it's.

01:11:32.78
Dave
You're okay without that stuff because you've you've gotten to that point.

01:11:33.14
Mick
Yeah, it's like you've gone this far your view. This is just icing on the cake at this point.

01:11:38.65
Dave
It is pretty cool that the dark side power like we talked about how from a role-playing perspective the dark side playthrough is a little bit of a letdown but from a combat and power fantasy perspective. The dark side of course the dark side gets to have all the fun.

01:11:53.42
Mick
Yeah I think if you didn't do that. There would be no reason to do it like if you didn't have like like this cool thing you know I get to basically be just the tornado of lightning bolts. Then you know why would you do it.

01:11:57.38
Dave
Right? I think.

01:12:03.19
Dave
Exactly? Yeah, so let's get into some wrap up thoughts here and answer the question who would we recommend play star wars knights of the old Republic in 2023

01:12:19.42
Mick
Honestly I think if you're a star wars fan like more so than just like a casual like oh yeah, I've I've watched some of the movies like yeah, it's fine. No I think if you're somebody who you're watching every new episode of every star wars show like the day it comes out on Disney plus. Seen the movie several times like if you're like a legitimate fan I think this is 1 you want to check out, you know if it if it's some for some reason slipped by you I think you should definitely try it just because especially with you know the work that Dave Folloney has done because he draws a lot from. He he's drawn stuff from the old republic and and has put it in the new shows and it's great. So I think if you're ah if you're a star wars fan. It's it's a thousand percent worth of play. But if you don't love star wars I don't think this is a game for you is not in 2023 I think from just like across the board combat ah gameplay um visuals I don't think there's enough there that if you don't love star wars that would make you go? Yeah, this is fun. The characters are interesting. The story is great. But I don't think that's enough if you're not a star wars fan because if you're not you're just gonna be like what who cares about this this Jedi person like whatever, really? well It's a big deal. Um, so if if you are ah a fan. A must um, it's a must play like or or a bus watch like go watch like a a supercut or something of of some of the story. But i Would highly recommend playing it because the experience of it is is so great.

01:13:57.56
Dave
Yeah, your character goes on. You know a little I mean we'll talk about a little bit in the spoiler section but your character does go on a bit of ah, a classic hero's journey in here so being a part of that as you know video games as an interactive medium. Give you a chance to take part in that and so for me personally that is lost if I just watch something on Youtube but um, yeah in like this game's combat like we said is streamlined to the point where if you're not normally a bioware rpg person.

01:14:18.39
Mick
Agreed.

01:14:30.78
Dave
If You don't know a lot about D and D. You'll be fine. This is not a super difficult game to get the hang of but I do agree with you that like it's an obvious recommendation for Star Wars fans who never played it because like we kind of touched on a little bit and we'll get in further in the spoiler section. Ah, this game does a really cool job of like really digging into things that you already knew about Star Wars but not to the level that like this story will take you to which is very cool. But if you don't care about the life of a jedi.

01:15:06.61
Dave
And if you don't care about how easy it is to fall to the dark side. Um, and if you don't care about the history of you know the old Sith lords and stuff like that then I don't know that this game is going to give you a great story outside of that stuff. It is a Star Wars Ass story.

01:15:21.10
Mick
Yeah I Yeah I think if you aren't already in. It's not gonna make you come in because you're gonna be like this is a lot of it'll just sound like like I said it'll just sound like nonsense to you because you're just like what are these? What is this? So yeah, if you're not already a fan.

01:15:39.47
Mick
I Don't think it'll make you one because I think I think it's so much and so in depth that it's a little off-putting if you're not a fan.

01:15:46.72
Dave
Yeah, the the star wars movies are for getting everybody into star wars for the first time and then like this game is like okay so you love the movies. Let's go deeper. You know.

01:15:57.60
Mick
Yeah, that this is like yeah this this really is the like you want more and you want to go deep come on in. Yeah, but if you again if you ain't there. It's not going to jive with you.

01:16:07.26
Dave
Yep. Yeah, which is what you would expect from this is bioware at the peak of their powers in the the early two thousand s and continuing on a little bit as the mass effect in Dragon age series went bioware is in a pretty unfortunate spot at this point in time in 2023 but if.

01:16:28.92
Dave
I guess if you're like I really loved mass effect and like maybe you loved Balder's gate back in the day and you liked how but bioware made their rpgs then that would be another person to check out KOTOR as well because you know a lot of those standard bioware game design things they're they're in this game too. So.

01:16:48.15
Mick
Yeah, for that sense. It's it's certainly cool like if you're a big mass effect fan. It's cool to probably spend a couple hours with this just so you can see like oh I see where this started you know? Um, but if you're not man, you're just if you're not a fan. It's gonna be hard.

01:16:57.94
Dave
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it might be Yeah yeah I was gonna give the the general recommendation for everyone who's thinking about playing KOTOR that like yeah, everyone.

01:17:04.49
Mick
Especially on Taris where you're gonna be like I don't give a shit about any of this where am I Where's this lightsaber where's my force powers.

01:17:19.95
Dave
I Don't think I've talked to anyone who's like I fucking Love Taris you know so it we get it like it kind of sucks. It's if you push through it like the cool stuff starts coming more and more after that, but everyone's kind of in agreement. Yeah yeah.

01:17:21.34
Mick
No one to loves stairs.

01:17:32.81
Mick
It's basically immediately like you get off Taris it's like instant like good stuff.

01:17:39.30
Dave
But it's like everyone's just kind of in agreement like yeah, you got to push through that early part where it seems like nothing cool is ever going to happen. So.

01:17:46.14
Mick
Yeah, or you got to really look for the cool stuff like the the bounty Hunter fight or not the bounty Hunter fight. But like there's like a fight club flight pit that you can do That's kind of cool. The swoop racing is cool. Um.

01:17:54.50
Dave
Yeah, the the people down in the sewers like they have interesting stories. There's a guy down there who's like hundreds of years old but looks like he's you know a regular person for some reason like there's little mini stories down there that are kind of interesting but Like. You're playing this because you want to be a Jedi So Everyone in the back of their heads like fuck man when when's it going to happen.

01:18:16.96
Mick
Yeah, and and that is kind of the bummer because they put so much care and love into like making you know like I don't know if you did it but did you make like the the cure for rack cool disease or whatever. Yeah, like.

01:18:28.73
Dave
I Did yep.

01:18:32.91
Mick
That's a really long quest line and like a lot that you can do and you can really have like all those people of the under city you can help. We're going to help you guys move to a better place and it's like really cool. But again, you're like when do I get the lightsaber so it's kind of a bummer in that regard where.

01:18:45.47
Dave
Yeah, yeah I was told that there would be light sabers.

01:18:50.53
Mick
It's great stuff but holy shit cut it half. Yeah if you put a lot of that stuff on the other side of becoming a Jedi way better way better.

01:19:02.43
Dave
Yeah, yeah, so um, it is a a qualified recommendation but it is a good game and I think that like you know, a lot of people go to kotour for the story and the story does hold up. It is really good so worth playing if you're interested in that um Mick ah.

01:19:20.14
Dave
Tell people about anything that you want to tell them about because you are a man of many talents around gaming and voice acting and Twitch streaming and all kinds of stuff so talk about what you do.

01:19:23.54
Mick
Oh thank you.

01:19:30.75
Mick
While I am part of a speaking of dungeons and dragons I am part of the d and d troop on Twitch called playotic games and we play a variety of stuff. Um I've dm'd a couple of campaigns I'm actually wrapping up by the time this comes out. Ah.

01:19:32.95
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:19:48.47
Mick
I will be done but I'm running a star wars five e campaign right now our our last episode is actually next week so um but that was cool I ran a final fantasy five e campaign for a few months there which was a lot of fun. We do a lot of one shots. We do a lot of stuff to raise money for charity.

01:19:50.66
Dave
Oh sick.

01:20:06.67
Mick
Ah, we we do a lot of stuff and it's a really good Time. We've got a lot of really talented individuals that are there so that is one of the biggest things that I do in addition to that I am a professional voice actor which means you can hire me to voice something for your project. Whatever it may be reach on out to me and I will. More than happily talk to you about it? Um, but ah, you can hear me regularly playing ah psychopaths Murderers and old men on Doorway to nightmare, always old men I don't know what it is I I get Typecast a lot I Play Psychos Serial killers.

01:20:44.63
Mick
And really old people. Um, no idea why but you can hear that on doorway to nightmare which is on Youtube it's a horror series where it's all sorts of short form horror and mystery stories I voice a variety of voices there. Um. I also voice a werewolf in an ongoing ah werewolf series called renegade shadow which you can find at Rhonda Parker's ah, Youtube channel words by Parker I was also part of the novelette that she did. Ah, called endgame which was a zombie story and I voiced a couple of people in that which was really cool I've got a couple of things that I'm working on that I can't talk about because I signed an nda but yeah, hopefully I didn't talk about them sooner than later. But.

01:21:27.70
Dave
Okay, ah.

01:21:33.10
Mick
1 thing that I can talk about is right now I'm in the process of working on I hate to call it a short film because I don't think that that accurately describes what it is but I am in the process of working on a film project right? now it is going to be a. Slasher movie very heavily inspired by movies from the eighty s that are slasher movies. So it is a horror project and I'm writing it directing it and doing god knows what else with it cause wearing many hats with that one but that's something I'm in the process of working on. Hopefully I'll be shooting that early next year

01:22:00.94
Dave
Sick.

01:22:06.62
Mick
That's the plan because there's a lot of work and stuff going into it but keep a look out on for that. Um, and I'm about to become a dad so that's cool and he does have a he he has a star wars name. Yes, his name is Dante Rex his middle name is Rex so.

01:22:25.43
Dave
Hell yeah, awesome.

01:22:25.82
Mick
He's got a Star Wars character name. So yeah, that's I just wanted to say that I'm coming to dad had nothing to do with anything but I that's another thing that I did so yes, thank you. It's very exciting. He will be He will be here before I know it.

01:22:32.43
Dave
But it it also has everything to do with everything. So yeah, Congrats man.

01:22:42.74
Dave
Yeah, by the time this episode comes out so by the time people hear this? Yeah, awesome. Yeah, everyone who's listening really recommend checking out the stuff that ah that Mick does.

01:22:43.62
Mick
Yeah, how to say he's going to be here in like three weeks so

01:22:55.50
Dave
Ah, you can go on the playotic games Youtube channel and check out that star wars campaign if you want to if you want to watch that. Yeah Twitch.

01:22:59.35
Mick
Oh yeah, the full thing is there? Oh and I'm on Twitch as well at micarate see I have been streaming as much lately I'm trying to get back into it. You know it's I need more time. That's what it is I need more time and I'm about to have a whole lot less of it. So.

01:23:14.25
Dave
Yeah, exactly yeah you can I go go follow Mick on Twitch. Always entertaining stuff. Um, check down in the show notes for links for all of the stuff that was just listed there.

01:23:21.69
Mick
Thank you.

01:23:28.70
Dave
And in the next minute or so when I'm talking about myself. You can tune me out because you heard me say the same stuff last week and you can go check out the stuff that Mick is doing highly recommended. So. Now is the time to start clicking around because if you want to support tales from the backlog I would really appreciate it if you would help me spread the word whether it's sharing on social media telling people in Discord servers that you're in stuff like that. It's really helpful. Um I am very proud of the show and I hope people enjoy it. People seem to enjoy it.

01:23:59.13
Mick
I enjoy it.

01:24:00.68
Dave
So why not tell someone you enjoy it? Yeah, um, if you want to support monetarily it is patreon.com/realdavejackson where for just a couple bucks a month you can vote in polls for what games I do on the show. Ah, you'll get some bonus content. Higher tiers have extra rewards including my retro gaming monthly show called tales from the way backlog which is a lot of fun if anyone knows me and my proclivities toward retro gaming. You can also leave a rating and review if you're listening to this on Apple Podcasts Spotify or podcast addict. It's highly appreciated and my other podcast is called a top 3 podcast where we've done some star wars stuff or some topics that have star wars conversations. We did. We do top 3 lists on that show. We did top 3 fictional vehicles which could have just been a star wars topic. We did top 3 fictional battles which included some star wars stuff again could have focused on star wars there if we wanted to so if you want to hear me talk about stuff that's not games. That's the place. So Mick and I are going to take a break and when we come back full spoiler time for star wars knights of the old republic 

01:25:50.65
Dave
Okay, Mick and I are back and it is full spoiler time for Star Wars Knights of the old Republic and this is if you're listening to this because you tuned out are you enjoying the music too much. The. Real fucking spoilers are starting so get out if you don't want to be spoiled On. Basically the most famous thing about the game that you probably already heard that this is here but you know anyway, starting Now. So This game's probably most famous thing other than.

01:26:24.30
Mick
Yeah, I'd say so.

01:26:24.78
Dave
No, this probably is the most famous thing is yeah the twist that um, you are not just a random dude who is you know mysteriously great at using the force we mentioned earlier that Darth Revan had disappeared and it turns out that that's you. You are Darth Revan and you have been brainwashed by the jedi to basically forget who you are and then they probably hope that they can use you for their own means because you forgot who you were but you did not lose any of your power in the force.

01:26:58.91
Mick
Who.

01:27:02.40
Dave
Um, so let's just talk about this. The first time you played this did you see this coming me.

01:27:09.67
Mick
Not at all I never saw it coming whatsoever I think they do such a good job of it's not even misdirect There's just like no real hint that you are Revan. Um, there's nobody who's like you look familiar. Yeah, like that never happens because well Revan wears a mask so you don't know what ren looks like Revan could be a man Revan could be a woman. They could be an alien like no one knows and when you see the flashbacks of Revan which are very few and far between. Again, no no real hint that it might be you. You're just like yeah no I'm a soldier in the republic. Whatever like yeah so I it's done really? well.

01:27:49.71
Dave
Yeah I'm I'm a so I'm a special boy I'm a video game protagonist. Of course I'm good at the force.

01:27:57.31
Mick
I Think that's kind of what what it does is it. It hides it enough because you're like well of I'm the main character of course I'm good like why like I could be a Jedi like but there's nothing that hints to it really I Well hold on I say that there's probably a couple of things like.

01:28:04.37
Dave
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:28:16.78
Mick
Mostly like the way the jedi council treats you ah in particular like 1 member is a giant dick to you? Um, so you could maybe think that was a little weird but you could also be like man. This guy's a dick kid like.

01:28:18.19
Dave
Yeah.

01:28:29.75
Dave
Yeah, so um, my first time playing it I was blindsided by this I thought it was like the coolest thing that had ever happened in a video game story and so like it was really interesting. Replaying it this time because I know the twist. So like there's some pieces of media. That rely on a twist to make you like it. You know like this twist was really fucking crazy therefore I enjoyed the entire experience because I was just blindsided by this and so I was wondering like is KOTOR. One of those is it a good story without the twist and.

01:28:48.27
Mick
Yeah.

01:29:05.34
Dave
The answer is yes I think and the other question I had was okay. So now I know there's a twist. Do they leave you some breadcrumbs that because you just have the mentality that I'm a video game protagonist. All of this makes sense because I'm the main character. And you just ignore all the stuff that's there and there's a lot that's there. It's cool, but it's nothing so obvious that like I at least ever questioned any of it because we're we're so used to everything revolving around us.

01:29:30.99
Mick
yeah yeah I think that's what makes it work. It's one of those things that like you said yeah, it's one of I think like about the sixth sense with that movie when you know the twist of it which I won't spoil just in case. Nobody's seen a movie for. 9096 that is the most spoiled thing in the world. But um, when you watch that movie and you know the twist you can really pick stuff up like super easy the second time and then almost to a point where like there's really no point in watching it more than twice because it's after that it's it's not.

01:29:52.38
Dave
Exactly I thought.

01:29:59.33
Dave
Head.

01:30:08.34
Mick
That great of a movie that it justifies it. But as you said with this I think there is a lot of replay ability even knowing that and man I'm trying to think I'm like did ice were there any breadcrumbs that I picked up I'm I miss them every time.

01:30:22.78
Dave
Yeah, So um, what I picked up on again. I'm playing this I'm taking podcast notes while I'm playing and stuff like that. The Jedi council you mentioned like there's a couple characters that mention how odd it is that you. Go to the Jedi Home planet and immediately get an audience with the Jedi council like Carth is like hey man what the fuck like no one just goes talk goes and talks to them like what's going on with you who are you? what's up and you're like well I don't know I'm a video game protagonist. They want to talk to me because it's my turn.

01:30:40.82
Mick
Yeah.

01:30:51.54
Mick
Yeah, ah yeah I'm I'm hopeful. Yeah, it's what I do.

01:30:56.97
Dave
But but um, there are um, a couple of the Star Forage map areas where they have like security systems that they're like oh right this way Sir like you know revven built that stuff so but even that was not obvious enough.

01:31:07.64
Mick
Um, yeah.

01:31:14.10
Dave
For me, it was like oh you know I'm a powerful Jedi. They let me in because I'm strong in the forest or something like that and it's it's only like in like the hour or so leading up to when they actually tell you where characters will talk to you and they'll be like you don't remember what's going On. Do you and. By that point. Maybe you're starting to get a little clue I wasn't but.

01:31:36.25
Mick
Now I think they they cover their tracks well enough because like the thing with the Jedi and your ability and force I seem to remember they say it's because you and bastola have an unexplained connection in the force.

01:31:53.60
Dave
Ah.

01:31:54.11
Mick
Like you're a dyad essentially ah in the force. So if I remember correctly that was why because for some reason the instant you meet her. She's like I feel we are connected in the force and blah blah blah. So you're just like of course because I am I am a video game protagonist and I'm a special boy. So like they they.

01:32:07.80
Dave
Yeah.

01:32:12.30
Mick
They sprinkle stuff but they also like give you the ah you know at face value reason of like oh well because you're you saved her and and then she got connected to you or whatever and you're like of course because I'm you know it's what I do as a video game protect.

01:32:26.41
Dave
Yeah, yeah, exactly um, 1 other thing I think is really one of the keys to like keeping you off the trail I think of this is your character has amnesia.

01:32:37.21
Mick
Yeah.

01:32:39.65
Dave
In this game but it is not a story about your character recovering their lost memories like so many stories about characters with amnesia. Are you have conversations where someone might ask you about where you came from. You're like I don't know I woke up on the ship I can't remember but it's not like.

01:32:46.87
Mick
Um, yeah.

01:32:59.10
Dave
Go to this place and you might find something to unlock your lost memories like no one gives you those quests. Um, did you play like I was thinking about Planescape Torment Did you play that? Yeah in that game your character is an amnesiac and there's a lot of stuff about like finding.

01:33:00.99
Mick
Yeah.

01:33:09.96
Mick
Ah, yes, it's been a while though.

01:33:18.38
Dave
Who you were and what you did and how you know these people. It's one of the main focuses of the the story in that game and it's really cool, but that is what like a main part of that game is about and in this game. Your character just happens to not remember. It's not like ah you're just a dude basically who doesn't remember where you came from. But again, it's not like you need to go to Kashyyk because there's an artifact there that might unlock your memories. No one gives you that stuff so you're not.

01:33:39.72
Mick
Um, yeah.

01:33:51.44
Dave
Constantly thinking about your own backstory. You're thinking about I got to get these star maps and I got to catch up to Malloc and all of that stuff.

01:33:55.61
Mick
I Remember there's like I believe it's when you're on Taris There's a conversation where Carth is you're you're asking Carth questions and trying to get to know him and he asks you something and it sort of changes depending on what your class is like if you're a scout if you're a soldier or whatever. And your answer is just really something vague like oh I'm a soldier in the Republic I served blah blah but or oh I'm a scout for the Republic like it's something. That's just so mundane and vague like you don't even really go into detail because again, it's like well I have to be like a faceless protagonist because you know I could be a man I could be a woman I could be.

01:34:21.69
Dave
And here.

01:34:31.81
Mick
You know a soldier I could be a scout I could be you know, whatever the case may be so it again. It's nothing that makes you go like oh wait until like right before you find out and then it's like bashing you over the head like something's amiss.

01:34:34.10
Dave
Yeah.

01:34:45.30
Dave
Yeah, um, it's interesting you but you bring up Carth because Carth Carthha is a dick to you for most of the game and part of the reason why he's a dick is because you're getting all this special treatment that no one should get and he's he's like he's like.

01:34:59.28
Mick
Yeah.

01:35:05.16
Dave
Dumbfounded by how everyone's treating you when you're supposed to be just like this regular dude and he's like I'm a war hero too like no yeah, um, so yeah, what what happened was there was a big battle.

01:35:10.34
Mick
Yeah, he's like I do things. It's like you don't do things like I do carth.

01:35:22.57
Dave
And I think that's why you have that connection with Bastillas because she was involved in that.

01:35:25.31
Mick
Yeah, because of the battle meditation. She actually Defeated. Um I Yeah, she was using her battle meditation and Malak fired on Revanship betraying him and basically Revan got knocked out and bastil was able to. I Think she's why your memory is like clouded or wiped or whatever. Um, so that's why you're connected in the force together.

01:35:41.80
Dave
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then the and then the Jedi ah basically like fully wiped you to make sure that I guess you know. Protect the galaxy from one of the strongest Sith but also they're like hey he lost his memories. Maybe we can use him? Yeah, um, so this kind of like sets up you find out that you're the missing sith lord and you now have the choice.

01:36:00.68
Mick
Yeah, and he was a Jedi at one point. So.

01:36:16.35
Dave
Like it's presented more to you as a choice here than earlier in the game where it's like do you want to be addict to people or do you want to be nice to people now they're like do you want to continue working against Malik and try to take down the sith or ah, do you want to just say fuck the jedi for what they did and. Go back to the dark side and it's this kind of sets up that that choice because they show you that like hey the Jedi are doing some some war crimes here and how do you want to react to that.

01:36:45.42
Mick
Yeah, basically yeah I think that's what makes it interesting because before that before you find out that you were revven You were the dark lord of the Sith The you know the the big bad head Honcho It is just the I guess you can be an asshole of people.

01:37:03.33
Dave
Yeah.

01:37:05.11
Mick
If you want credits if you want but now it's ah it's an actual choice and it is one of those things of you can legitimately be mad at the Jedi because it's pretty like you said it's they're basically committing a war crime like they are using you as a weapon with your in in your Amnesiac state.

01:37:17.15
Dave
Yeah, um.

01:37:21.46
Mick
Ah, to try and control what you do so you have that ability to say either? Yes, or no so that's it's cool when you get to look at like the dark side choices from that lens. Um, but it's still a little while before you find out that you're revn. So by this point, you've probably. Already decided to go 1 way or the other just based on like force abilities.

01:37:40.11
Dave
Yeah, yeah, and you know role-playing too. But this at least gives you an interesting reason to go to the dark side where if you're if you're role-playing or if you're just you know if you're someone who's playing this and you're like.

01:37:47.80
Mick
Yeah.

01:37:57.15
Dave
Yeah I can take the take or leave the Jedi they're not my religion or anything like that. So now they're presenting them as complicated doing bad things controlling people manipulating people you are justified if you want to.

01:37:59.14
Mick
Yeah.

01:38:16.35
Dave
If you want to go to the dark side or if you just want to say hey fuck both sides like I don't I will fight the dark side but I am not um I'm not on board with everything. The Jedi are doing.

01:38:17.91
Mick
Um, yeah.

01:38:27.95
Mick
Yeah, which I think is the canonical ending Revan disappears after the star forge is like Revan just completely disappears. Um, so yeah, it's one of those things of you.

01:38:32.53
Dave
So okay.

01:38:43.78
Mick
Basically go light side but then you're like Nah fuck the Jedi I'm out of here like that's sort of what appears to happen.

01:38:52.32
Dave
And I just like I talked about this in the non-spoiler part but this is what I meant when I said or this is one of the things that I that I was you know thinking of when I was talking about how it kind of portrays. The jedi in a different way than. We're used to in the movies and stuff like that. It wasn't really until um, in my opinion the sequel trilogy when you start to see um you know the the jedi and the um the villains I guess the sith with Kyla Ren being portrayed in like.

01:39:28.30
Mick
Yeah.

01:39:28.71
Dave
Ah, more nuanced way in the prequels. They you know they showed that the Jedi aren't perfect because they fucked up the whole Anequin thing but ah the emperor in the prequels is still the emperor this you know cackling Evil Maniac whereas like.

01:39:42.80
Mick
Yeah.

01:39:46.92
Dave
In the sequel trilogy. They actually give you a good character in Kyla Ren in my opinion and it's it's like also in this game they portray this with a lot more nuance than we had been used to I guess if you played this in 2003

01:39:58.93
Mick
Yeah I think I think Kylo's portrayal and the struggle with the dark side is super interesting because it does provide that depth and nuance. You don't get that with the dark side in this game because it is like I'll kill you and take your credits.

01:40:13.10
Dave
Yeah, unfortunately yeah.

01:40:17.61
Mick
Yeah, unfortunately, but you know that's the difference in almost twenty years of time and in writing and stuff there. But no I agree I think it wouldn't just be like a yes I'm evil ah all the time like no it is one of those things and and you see it with a couple of different characters like Johani's like that. Ah.

01:40:28.65
Dave
That.

01:40:36.40
Dave
Um, ah yeah.

01:40:36.50
Mick
She struggled with Jedi expectation and fell to the dark side because of it. But then you talked to her and make her realize like no you know I can come back from this which is interesting because you like I think it was Jahani's master or somebody that worked with Johani. They fall to the dark side and go to um the academy on corruban like yeah, which was a nice little cool touch or like Joeli he becomes disillusioned with like the politics of the jedi council and just all their nonsense and he's like forget this I'm going to go live.

01:40:59.49
Dave
Um, okay.

01:41:05.69
Dave
Yeah.

01:41:10.98
Mick
Like the deepest darkest forest when KuChique and nobody will bother me and I'm like relatable. Um, so yeah I think there's a lot that they did the sequel trilogy that was really good with Kyler Ren's character and I'm sure some people are so punching their.

01:41:11.20
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

01:41:28.72
Mick
Listening device as I say that but it's true like villains don't always need to be like more ha you know, like no, they can have a little bit depth because ultimately like Kylo was not a villain you know he was somebody who couldn't handle the pressures and felt betrayed which sort of Darth Revan same same thing

01:41:44.13
Dave
Yep, yeah this this game shows you multiple people who could not handle the pressure of being a jedi and either fell completely to the dark side like with Johani or just said hey fuck all this I'm going to go live in the jungle like choli.

01:41:57.99
Mick
Yep, which got bless him. But.

01:42:00.90
Dave
Um, yeah, love love to have just like a cranky old man as a party character you know, whereas again. The jedi are always portrayed in this like very uptight professional manner and Jolie's like yeah I can use the force but like hey this shit sucks.

01:42:18.49
Mick
Yeah, it's terrible and basilla has the same thing too. You know she has that and and she falls at 1 point through the in the game you know she falls to the dark side but largely because she crumbles under the pressure of.

01:42:20.51
Dave
It sucks on both sides. Yeah.

01:42:34.50
Mick
I have this super powerful ability. The Jedi requires and they depend on me and they need me to use this ability fuck them. Why am I doing this for that like it really is that just that that's sort of the feel like a big theme in this game is just struggling under expectation and pressure. You know.

01:42:49.42
Dave
Yeah.

01:42:52.90
Mick
You're expected to be a jedi you're expected to be this like perfect zen master but like none of the jedi we see in the entire game are that like there even Jedi counsels that.

01:42:59.22
Dave
Yeah, that's the yeah, that's the thing it's it's how strict and how like impossible the standards are for someone to be like a perfect Jedi night basically and so.

01:43:13.24
Mick
Yeah.

01:43:17.63
Dave
Everyone basically crumbles in their own way I was going to ask you about Bastilla in particular because her turn kind of caught me by surprise until I started doing a little bit more thinking and a little bit of research about like why did this actually happen. It felt like um.

01:43:37.27
Dave
Maybe it would have been fleshed out more if I talked to her more on the ship there was I probably didn't talk to her as much as I possibly could have but it seemed like you were like bastlo is on our team. Everything's cool. Um, and then you get to this point Bastol is evil now you know.

01:43:41.53
Mick
Yeah.

01:43:51.50
Mick
Yeah, So it's one of those things of like the more you talk to or the more you interact with her. You do kind of realize like oh she's been struggling a long time and she's not she has not mastered her emotions I think the idea is like. Part of her battle meditation is the reason why like the thing that she can do and that like gives her the strength is the reason why but more so because she and Revan connected some of what he was goes into her like it's sort of that like.

01:44:24.86
Dave
Okay.

01:44:28.33
Mick
She was able to see things clearer because of like connecting through Revan and because he was fall into the dark side she understood and you know like ah you know gave into her her emotion essentially because there is that romance there too with with her.

01:44:34.90
Dave
Yep.

01:44:40.60
Dave
Yeah, yeah, that it's the like giving into your emotion or feeling regular human emotions is something that like Jedi are not supposed to do and it's it's part of that like unattainable.

01:44:53.48
Mick
Yeah.

01:44:59.46
Dave
Zen state that very few like Jedi could ever you know do basically um, there's a side quest with bastola where you you meet her mom and like learn about her family life and it's another thing like Jedi are not supposed to have ties to the outside world because those are all you know. Influences that could steer them down the wrong path or something like that. But if you just think about that for a second like the expectation that you're going to cut off everybody. You've ever known and loved in order to join this organization and basically like.

01:45:36.00
Mick
And.

01:45:36.39
Dave
Live as a husk without feeling all the range of human emotions and all of that stuff like it hit me by surprise in the moment when Bastilla turned but then like thinking about it talking about it a little bit I'm like yeah it kind of makes sense with her too.

01:45:51.49
Mick
She's basically Anekin Skywalker like when you look at basilla like she's super powerful like you know she's emotional. She didn't cut off her. You know, but pre jedi relationships like she's annakin skywalker. Basically.

01:46:05.95
Dave
Yeah I yeah if you want her to she can come back? Um I also would really recommend anyone listening to this check out Noah Caldwell Jars like

01:46:06.70
Mick
Um, the only difference is she comes back or can come back to the light side.

01:46:23.51
Dave
2 or 3 hour long video essay which walks through both KOTOR games along the steps of the hero's journey because star wars media follows the hero's journey super closely like to the point where um, Noah points out a couple of points where it's like if you study the hero's journey. You will know. When someone is like purposely following each step to a t and there's a couple points in this game where it is like that and bastilless turn is one of those things so like it kind of makes sense because at this point in the hero's journey. Someone's got a turn. Basically. And be like ah an ally becomes an enemy or something like that so that kind of made sense from a writing perspective but I do think that the the other work as far as her struggling with being a jedi was there too. So um, yeah.

01:47:03.74
Mick
Um, yeah.

01:47:19.60
Dave
What I think we touched on it a little bit in the non-s spoiler part but I think we cut something for spoilers. What else is noteworthy about doing a dark side playthrough.

01:47:31.73
Mick
The biggest thing is um when you get to ah ricotta Prime I think the basically the the beach planet before the star forge. Um, where that is where you you encounter Evil bastola.

01:47:39.15
Dave
Yeah.

01:47:47.91
Mick
You fight her you can defeat her as a lightside user and she um I can't remember if she comes back there or she doesn't come back into the star Forge I think it might be the star forge where she returns. But if you're on the dark side. She comes back then like she's all on board and.

01:47:55.53
Dave
Yeah.

01:48:04.32
Mick
Because you're yeah, it's basically the the Darth Vader moment you know, join me together. We will for beat the emperor like it's that moment and you're just kind of like yeah we're going to fucking kill malloc and take control of the star forge and at that point joeli johani carth and mission all are like nope.

01:48:11.94
Dave
Um, my thought.

01:48:24.26
Mick
Not happening and they all turn on you. Um, and you do one of the things that you can do as well to get even more dark side points because Zalbar will not fight you he has sworn a life debt to you so he won't fight you he does literally whatever you tell him to do.

01:48:25.15
Dave
Um, do you have to fight them.

01:48:37.57
Dave
Yeah.

01:48:42.46
Mick
You can tell him to kill mission. Yeah, like which is the most dark side grim thing that you can do um so you kill Jahani you kill Jolie you kill mission the two droids they're on your side. No matter what because.

01:48:42.74
Dave
Jesus Christ the feather.

01:48:58.46
Mick
Well one HK is all about he's about that action boss like he is all in.

01:49:00.25
Dave
He was he was Revans dred that was one of the the clues that you you probably over that you I everyone probably overlooks is that. Hk's like hey I like you but it turns out he was revans assassinroid. So that's why it writes you.

01:49:15.38
Mick
Yeah, his memory. You're regathering his memory as you're going along to so he didn't remember everything and then the other one who doesn't talk you know again is he just a draw who's goingnna do what you say Canddara is that guy who's like whatever like there. Theres so many.

01:49:27.12
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:49:34.00
Mick
You know, sometimes good people do bad things. Sometimes bad people do good things like you're strong. You're powerful. He's a Mandalorian if you've built up like a good rapport with him. He's on. He's in like whatever like he's going to follow you forever because he was yeah and in conversations with him you find out he respects revan.

01:49:44.39
Dave
Nothing.

01:49:53.90
Mick
Like that is one of the things because Revan was like a hero of the manddaloan war and was just like a great leader and a great warrior. So candaous respects him because of that so he's all in. But yeah, the other the other characters um day turn on you and you kill them except for carth who runs like a little bitch.

01:50:01.40
Dave
Yeah.

01:50:12.29
Mick
Like you get to a point where you almost kill him and he just bolts and like runs away and I'm just like what that is the most carth thing to do if if it has a bit obvious about this whole episode Carth is my least favorite character in this game. He's just he's insufferable like.

01:50:19.25
Dave
Are ah.

01:50:27.74
Mick
Even when you get to know him better. He's still insufferable and a dickhead and just yeah, he's just not a great character in my opinion.

01:50:29.39
Dave
Yeah I like like ah we talked about he's one of the people who's like hey this doesn't make sense that the Jedi are just going to welcome you with open arms like I like his role in that but like do I want to spend time talking with him on the ship.

01:50:43.31
Mick
Yeah, no, he's just he's abrasive and just not interesting and like never really tries to be like almost every conversation ends with him being like there. Okay are you happy? you've asked me a lot now I'm done.

01:50:48.53
Dave
No, not really.

01:50:58.93
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:51:02.37
Mick
Like he's just like always that guy and it's just like oh my God Dude you're terrible. Thankfully, it's the last time bioware really had like sort of that secondary main character who's an insufferable piece of shit the whole game. Um.

01:51:16.82
Dave
Thankfully.

01:51:17.26
Mick
Yeah, because like in the set in KOTOR two like they don't have anybody like that and then ah like after that like dragon age. It's removed I haven't played a ton of mass effects. So I can't maybe there is someone there but like dragon age. There's nobody. That's like that because the 1 main secondary character. Um, Alister is ah, he's goofy and and at least. Like fun and and arming. He's not ah, a complete tool like Karthhas Carth sucks like terrible character and I hate that you didn't get to kill him because like I said he just bolts he runs because I guess he figured oh these start these sith are way stronger than me with my blaster pistols.

01:51:38.38
Dave
Um, ah yeah.

01:51:54.17
Dave
Yeah, is um is the the Sith Academy any different if you're like on the dark side like do they treat you differently.

01:52:04.24
Mick
Not really, um, it's again, it's just sort of it's easier because you're killing everybody instead of like trying to figure out how to sabotage things and like work around things like you were just being like a true sif and just burrowing your way through it. Um.

01:52:13.77
Dave
Ah.

01:52:20.39
Mick
I think there's a little bit more interesting conversation with like you know a things like that I think there's a little more interesting because of the dialogue options so you learn a little bit more about them. But they're a little more tragic.

01:52:34.40
Dave
Um.

01:52:36.31
Mick
In that regard like you realize like sort of the folly of being a sith is the they're all going to betray each other and they're that's why they will never succeed is like Malak you got you guys were winning. You were winning and because you chose I'm going to betray Revan right now.

01:52:44.53
Dave
Yeah.

01:52:53.64
Dave
Yeah, the Sith will literally like kill each other until there's not enough of them left to exist and then they just have to like camp out until more people turn to the dark side or some shit like it's ah it's a very weird.

01:52:53.81
Mick
You screwed everything up.

01:53:05.10
Mick
Pretty much. Yeah, so that's.

01:53:10.32
Dave
Structure that they've got going on. Yeah.

01:53:10.80
Mick
Yeah, it's It's a flawed system and but ultimately like that's what makes Star Wars Interesting is like technically they're both flawed systems but you know people are like well the Jedi aren't and it's like na. The Jedi are because they they become to. We're perfect. We don't make mistakes.

01:53:25.48
Dave
Yeah, they the Jedi are flawed because it's it is an unreasonable ask of people to keep up with all the stuff that Jedi have to keep up with basic. There's a there's a reason that there's like you know.

01:53:38.43
Mick
Well.

01:53:44.46
Dave
So many of the talented young Jedi turned to the dark side at like the drop of a hat because they they break 1 of the 6000 rules that you know puts you on the path.

01:53:52.37
Mick
Um, it's so incredibly hard and the biggest thing at least you know this this is more in the in the prequel trilogy. The reason why Palpatine was able to rise to power is and the jedi didn't even realize this they completely lost their way. They had become the force had become clouded so and that's how they had lived. They weren't making their own determinations and own decisions. They were just literally like whatever the force wills that we should do. So essentially they're cut off from the force. Not really cut off but like they can't be guided by it so because of that.

01:54:20.29
Dave
Ah.

01:54:26.76
Mick
They have no idea what to do? They're like this thing that's been guiding us for a couple hundred years fucking. We can't We can't It's clouded. We don't know what to do and then a war happens and they're not supposed to be warriors they're peacekeepers. They're like monks. Basically they're not supposed to be soldiers.


01:54:45.13
Mick
And that's why you see like through clone wars like there's a lot of Jedi that fall to the dark side and the entire time Palpatine's just sitting there like hey I'm the dark lord of the Sith and you don't know because I'm clouding the force you know? So yeah, right here the whole time I am that powerful. So yeah, that.

01:54:56.89
Dave
I'm I'm right here? Yeah, and the dark side is like a a tempting and corrupting force too. It's not like. You know you break 1 jedi rule and you're you're on the dark side but like the dark side is always there tempting you as well. So if you're not that perfect. You know person of iron will that can like resist all of the temptation and all human emotion and all human contact and.

01:55:16.41
Mick
Um, oh yeah.

01:55:29.43
Dave
All you know, Basically what it means to be human in general. Then yeah, the dark side's probably going to win So it's it's an unwinn. It's a very hard thing to keep up with so.

01:55:33.53
Mick
Oh yeah, it's incredibly hard. And 1 of the cool things that this game does and you get to see it a lot in like the valley of the dark lords is you get to understand why the sith look for things that increase their power and why they're also constantly looking for things to increase their.

01:55:56.51
Mick
Length of their life and things like that and why they turn to um, like like Malloc is missing a jaw like his jaw is gone so he has you know a mechanical thing attached and the reason is and you see this when you go to the valley of the dark lords. They don't live on through the force they become like ghosts. And they haunt where they they attend to either be attached to a place or an object. So when you go to these tombs. They're literally like a scar in the force trapped forever right? there in that space whereas like.

01:56:18.35
Dave
But ah.

01:56:27.34
Mick
Other jedi when they die they become part of the force and they can appear anywhere and everywhere and we've seen that like obbi one we've seen that Yoda does it obbi one does it quaiggon does it like but the dark side. There's nothing after that there is no living through the force there is this is the end so that's why they're all obsessed with power is because they're trying to figure out.

01:56:32.43
Dave
Yeah.

01:56:39.85
Dave
Means.

01:56:46.76
Mick
How do I extend my life So I don't become something that is essentially a force poltergeist.

01:56:51.36
Dave
Right? I guess that makes sense why Anikin's there at the end of return of the jedi because he he he made the the trip back to the light side right? before he died. Yeah yeah, and it.

01:57:02.76
Mick
Yep, funny how that works it's like you could be terrible for like 30 years and then you just come come back in the last two minutes and you're back baby and you're not all fucked up either.

01:57:09.29
Dave
Yeah, back into heaven. Ah I'm still mad. They replaced to replace him with Hayden Christensen but yeah no shade to Hayden Christensen he did what he could.

01:57:20.76
Mick
He did you know hey he's sometimes you can't escape bad writing.

01:58:01.68
Dave
Bad writing to bad boss Fights. You get to the Star Forge you go through this just incredibly long gauntlet of combat and going through like the catwalks and stuff inside the Star Forge Um, you get separated from your party. It's It's a whole thing. It is an extremely long section. It's too long but I guess they want to make sure that you're up to the task of fighting Malloc at the end because even on a dark side Playthrough. You're still going to fight Malak right.

01:58:29.44
Mick
Oh yeah, that that doesn't change. Ah some of the details of the fight change. Um because of certain force abilities that you would have as a dark side user that you wouldn't have is like you know a light side user. Um I think it's so long and I think the Star forge is like this one because they're like.

01:58:42.30
Dave
Right.

01:58:48.40
Mick
That's the power of the star Forge is it can create droids and ships and blah bla bla like with no resources like out of thin air and um I think it's literally just ah if you haven't leveled up enough. It's going to level you up to to be relevant to that point of the game.

01:58:52.17
Dave
Yeah, no.

01:58:59.92
Dave
Exactly yep so in the Malik fight Malik has these 7 jedi kind of captured in these stasis pods or whatever and you. When you fight him, you beat him 1 time he runs over and steals the power from the jedi that are captured and there's a couple ways to go about the fight. So if you're doing a dark side playthrough is it force lightning or force drain or something like that.

01:59:31.18
Mick
Ah, you do force drain and take their life force Exactly yeah, you're you're out, you're out dark, citing him showing you're the dark lord of the Sith not him.

01:59:34.40
Dave
Right? So he can't steal the life force from them in your dark side. So who gives a shit you're you're killing Jedi. Yeah, exactly. Um, if you're doing a light side playthrough. That's very unfortunate because what that means is you just have to fight malik 8 times.

01:59:52.22
Mick
Pretty much. That's the only time where this game with light light sight is harder no doubt because you get less money you have to go essentially the long way about everything so it is. Essentially more rewarding but it's also more difficult because of that.

02:00:12.90
Dave
Yeah, and this this final boss fight is it's not difficult. It wasn't for me um, not a difficult fight like strategically you are a superhero at this point. Um, even if you're on the light side and you don't have the cool dark side powers. You're still a superhero. Ah.

02:00:29.40
Dave
I Just had like enough healing items. So if he if Mallek hit me a bunch I healed but what it amounts to because he comes over and he you beat him. He runs over You can't hit him when he's running he yeah.

02:00:39.29
Mick
Yeah, which is like oh so such a fucking video game bullshit thing.

02:00:46.10
Dave
And so what happens is he runs over he steals the life from the jedi he fully heals and then you repeat that yet repeat that 7 times and then it's over. It's it's really not that the combat was ever great in the game but this a real stinker of a final boss fight.

02:00:49.72
Mick
Beat his ass again.

02:00:59.27
Mick
Yeah, it is a and I sort of get it because of the just the way combat's laid out So like I get it in that regard. But as he said man, it's just not Fun. It is a little better dark sidewise because you can. You can do it. You can drain them and you know so it makes it easier in that capacity and it's it's the only time that like being dark side really feels like okay yeah, this is great because you're really having a huge impact on something in the game that feels like it makes a difference. Um, and then if you.

02:01:36.95
Mick
When you beat Malak you're just basically the emperor again like you become the emperor of the Seth Empire essentially

02:01:40.60
Dave
Yeah, you know like I was in this fight because I had a lot of time to think in between the fifth and sixth time I fought him during this fight I'm playing a light side character. Why can't I save these captive Jedi but there's no way to save them. Yeah, it would have been awesome to you know.

02:01:54.48
Mick
I would have been cool right.

02:02:00.49
Dave
do some fucking unplug the machine or something so they can get up and run away. But yeah.

02:02:02.27
Mick
Yeah, like get out of here. Save yourself. You know? yeah for like the I don't know if the game is still going to be remade I Know at one point there it was in being remade and then it's not anymore. But maybe that's a change if if it actually does go along with.


02:02:20.90
Mick
Getting remade. Finally maybe that's what happens is they add that element in and I could see that in a remake scenario of like because of the times 2003 it's the original xbox like there's only so much you can do but I feel like now they would probably add that in to let you like free them and let them get out of there.

02:02:39.70
Dave
Yeah I think you're right, it was being remade and then they transferred it to a different studio because they weren't happy with how the original studio was doing it or something like that. So it's probably in development Hell at this point.

02:02:40.43
Mick
Something.

02:02:53.37
Mick
Yeah I think it's almost safe to say it's not happening but it's not like officially been said that it's not happening.

02:02:58.18
Dave
Yeah, right? But if a remake were to happen combat would be like easily the biggest jump in quality I feel pretty confident in saying like they'll make the combat better and then by extension this final boss fight.

02:03:09.66
Mick
Oh yeah.

02:03:16.70
Dave
Will surely be better. Maybe more options with how to solve it than just literally fight malloc 8 times in a row with it.

02:03:22.92
Mick
Yeah, that felt like that felt like we know we've got to do an epic fight but because ultimately like combat and the enemies that you face are so limited into what they can do. This is the only thing that we could do to make it different than every other dark side.

02:03:42.25
Mick
Force User Fight you've had the whole game God I Guess there's only so many ways that you can do it granted if it was done today. There's going to be some quick time events involved and like mashing the X button really quickly and.

02:03:51.88
Dave
Ah, yeah, ah yeah, so um I believe if you're doing a light side playthrough. Ah you get a dialogue choice to basically say like I'll join the Jedi or basically say like you know what.

02:04:09.53
Dave
I'm leaving peace deuces and then you walk off but in my game I can't remember what I said but there is like you know, like at the end of return of the Jedi The the ceremony with the medals and all of that stuff. So it's kind of fun. Good throwback.

02:04:21.63
Mick
Yeah, it's It's a nice like kind of very warm Fuzzy Star Wars ending. Um I think the dark side. It's literally like you know basilla introduces you is like the you know the Doth Revn the emperor Dark Lord or the sit or whatever the hell she calls you and it's just like.

02:04:41.14
Mick
In front of this massive army of of Sith and it's like we arere going to destroy the republic and rule that galaxy and it's like well that doesn't happen. But um, which is you know I get it. They plus you know they were working on KOTOR 2 at this point which is funny.

02:04:45.87
Dave
Kind of yeah.

02:04:57.72
Mick
Because when they were working on. It's a different studio that makes co to do and um, they didn't know the story of the first game. Yeah, that's why like when you play it. There's some connections but not really.

02:04:59.50
Dave
Um, yeah, it's obsidian. Yeah, interesting.

02:05:14.42
Dave
Yeah, as far as I remember like HKFortySeven is in co tore 2 But like yeah most of the other characters aren't there. Um, the story takes place like five years later but it's not about Revan.

02:05:17.20
Mick
You can rebuild him. Yes.

02:05:30.16
Dave
At all. Yeah, so yeah, it's kind of cool. You know I have KOTOR two on the switch now I'll probably play it sometime because I had a good enough time playing this that I'd be interested in because I always remembered the story in this game because how could you forget? but.

02:05:30.63
Mick
You're the exile.

02:05:48.79
Dave
I don't remember the story of KOTOR 2 very well so I would be interested to go back because I remember loving it back when I played it the first time.

02:05:53.40
Mick
Yeah, it's great I think between the two like they're both good and the cool thing about them is that both of them have things about them that are way better than the other one like 1 of the this is sort of a spoiler but not really. Because you could do like quests and stuff with all your individual characters. But in the second KOTOR you can make every single person on your party a jedi like they aren't 1 but then they can become one like through which is awesome like that's so cool.

02:06:20.94
Dave
Um, yeah I remember that yeah that.

02:06:29.64
Mick
Ah, it's hard with some of them like it's really hard to get that closeness and dialogue and all that kind of stuff but to me I was like yeah this is cool like this is what you want is like to make everybody a Jedi and you know it it I think it's secondary character stories are a little bit. Deeper ah because almost everybody has this sort of like inherent sadness about their Characters. So I think that's kind of cool. Um, the force powers are cool. It's Great. It's a really good game So I should definitely jump into it The ending of it sucks. But what because it it it almost feels like it wasn't finished.

02:07:07.13
Dave
Yeah, KOTOR 2 does notably have like cut content that aspyr the developer of like this remastered version on switch and stuff promised that they were going to put out.

02:07:08.52
Mick
Like that's the problem with the ending of the second one.

02:07:24.42
Dave
Ah, like as a dlc and then recently they were like yeah we're not doing that. Um, so they what they did was they said like if you own KOTOR 2 please send us proof and we'll send you a game code for another one of the old star wars games. So I did that I got jedi outcast.

02:07:42.85
Mick
Nice. It's it's fun. It's one of the ones like where you know you just kind of pick your force powers and and play through the game you get to a point where you could choose light side or dark side but you could be using dark side powers the entire time like but it's it's it's fun.

02:07:44.90
Dave
On the switch. So I never played that that'll be cool.

02:07:58.20
Dave
Yeah, yeah, hell yeah and I've had a good time on this episode here tonight man this is a lot of fun I appreciate you where over 2 hours now thank you again.

02:08:14.41
Mick
Yeah man I was so pumped when you asked me to do it. This is one of my favorite gates Star Wars like my life is Star Wars like I have multiple Star Wars Tattoos I Literally do not remember a point in my life where Star Wars was not part of it so you know love it so much I Love this game.

02:08:27.11
Dave
Yeah, same.

02:08:32.68
Mick
Yeah, it's like I said if you were star wars fan. It's a must play just just to appreciate it and especially nowadays looking at how you know star wars fans were eating good. You know we got so many Tv shows and animated shows and movies and like this was in

02:08:47.20
Dave
Either.

02:08:52.20
Mick
The break of the drought you know after Fanom Mena and attack of the clones. So but it is still like there's so much cool stuff that you can see in star wars media today. There's just like hints and pieces of it. Especially if Dave Fooney's involved because he's like going to take that kind of just add that in.

02:09:11.00
Dave
Yeah, this this is good. It's um, it's always good to have a star wars story that a does not involve the skywallkers. You know there is potential for endless storytelling out there. So um, this is awesome. And also good to have a star wars story again, that's that's taking place in a much different time zone like ah era in star wars history because again, you could tell all these wild stories with sith lords and you don't have to worry about like well Darth Vader has to win because he's in all the movies. So.

02:09:42.33
Mick
Yeah, and and this game and this series gave birth to the old Republic which is sneakily the best mmo that is out there right now and it's also kind of not an mmo because it's basically Knights of the old Republic three. It's just online.

02:10:00.48
Mick
That's it like you could play the whole game solo. You don't ever have to play with anybody and it's free to play.

02:10:04.82
Dave
Nice that ah the best mmo even better than the critically Acclaimed Mmo That's right.

02:10:08.30
Mick
Well not the critically acclaimed final fantasy 14 where you can play the free trial up to level 60 including the award winning heavensward for no live. I Love that meme. Thank you.

02:10:22.77
Dave
Fantastic Thanks again, man this has been awesome. Yeah, everybody listening I appreciate everyone sticking it out to the end as always if you have not played KOTOR before and we just spoiled the whole thing I do think that there is value in going back and seeing the breadcrumbs that they laid for that big twist. And all of the stuff with the jedi too. Thank you for listening once again, check down in the show notes for links to everything that Mick is doing highly recommended and tune in next week for the next game to come out of the backlog