00:00.31
Dave
Hello everybody. My name is Dave Jackson and you're listening to Tales from the Backlog. This is a video games review podcast where each week I'm joined by a guest to bring a game out of the backlog, play it and discuss my guest today is a friend of the show. Co-host of the franchise festival podcast and wild beast tamer Chris Chris welcome yeah it's ah it's good to ah good to chat with you been listening to your show for a while and we've chatted off and on for a while now. So good to talk with you today.

00:23.39
Chris
Thank you for having me, hello everybody.

00:36.80
Dave
Have a really interesting game to discuss today. That game is The Last Guardian which is an adventure game developed by Japan studio and gen design and published by Sony for the playstation 4 in 2 sixteen if this is your first time listening to the show. Thank you for stopping by. Here's how spoilers work on this podcast. We're going to deep dive for a while with no spoilers and after a certain point we're going to warn you when the spoilers begin so you can jump out at that time you can also check down in the show notes. There's a timestamp for when the spoilers begin and ah. If. You don't care about spoilers or if you have played The Last Guardian you can keep on listening and we'll get into the story in detail after that so we have some elevator pitches for people if you don't know what The Last Guardian is thank you for clicking on a podcast about a game. You don't know anything about how I appreciate you. But The Last Guardian I say is Fumito Ueda’s trademark minimalist storytelling. But this time it's about a boy and his giant Catbirddog. Chris what would you say?

01:41.18
Chris
This is the longest legend of Zelda dungeon you've ever played accompanied by the most lifelike video game companion you've ever met.

01:49.35
Dave
Yes, hundred percent agree and we are going to spend a lot of time talking about that companion because it is truly something special before we do want to talk about some stats where we played it and how long it took us.

02:05.43
Dave
I played this on PS5, it took me 13 hours to beat.

02:08.14
Chris
Took me about 15 hours give or take oh yes of course PS5 as well. I originally started this on PS4 several years ago but for this run I did it strictly on PS5

02:11.44
Dave
And also on PS5 yeah

02:24.31
Dave
Gotcha gotcha so we always begin the episode by talking about what made us want to play The Last Guardian and whenever there's a kind of series going on our history with the series and this is not in its own The Last Guardian series but it is. Related to the previous games from this creator in this team. So Chris what brought you to The Last Guardian to begin with because you played it before I did.

02:49.60
Chris
Um I did um I was very hyped for this game. Um, and that goes back I rented Ico the team's first game back on the playstation 2 after no joke playing it on a Kmart kiosk.

02:55.17
Dave
You rented it.

03:03.78
Dave
Oh hell? Yeah yeah.

03:06.75
Chris
Ah, circa like 2001 and I was very intrigued, didn't ever finish it. But I got hooked by the Shadow of the Colossus on PS2 obviously in you know, unassailable masterwork. I now have it on PS2, PS3 and PS4 because I just can't get enough Shadow of the Colossus.

03:12.38
Dave
Yeah.

03:25.47
Chris
And so when the rumors about this started circulating back in I want to say it was 2009 I was really excited then it disappeared for 6 years and reappeared at E3 2015 and me not having a playstation four was up the creek but I was just delighted ah that this wasn't vaporware.

03:41.64
Dave
Yeah.

03:44.18
Chris
And so when I finally got a PS4 in 2018 I bought Bloodborne and The Last Guardian to go with it. So yeah, yeah, that's a real greatest hits. So the PS4 right there in a dual package.

03:52.36
Dave
Ooh That's a good duo right there to get you started. Yeah.

04:01.72
Chris
So yeah I played about 25% of it back in 2018 got sidetracked and then when we were talking about doing this show I figured it was about time to finally get back to it.

04:09.95
Dave
Yeah yeah I love it when the podcast can give other people an excuse to return to a game or try something out for the first time that they always wanted you to know in your own personal backlog because that's what I'm doing with most of the show for myself here. So.

04:24.10
Chris
Exactly it's right there in the name tales from the backlog. It's a philosophy.

04:28.55
Dave
Exactly yeah, see. It's not just a name , it's what I'm doing. Yeah, it's a lifestyle. Yeah, so for me personally um I am relatively new to Ueda's games and Team Ico as they were previously known. I played Shadow of the Colossus for the first time maybe in 2019 or something like that. I never owned a playstation before that. So I certainly never played Ico either. So I covered real quick. I covered Shadow of the Colossus in episode 31 of tales from the backlog. That's with Adam Bucceri, a frequent guest on this show.

05:02.82
Chris
A mutual buddy of ours I just have to interject he was on our Resident Evil 7 episode over on Franchise Festival and he is an absolute delight.

05:04.51
Dave
Oh hell yeah.

05:11.54
Dave
That's right? Yes, he is absolutely so shout out to you Adam if you're listening out there and episode 80 of tales from the backlog is about Ico I finally went back and played that that is with Josh from the Still Loading podcast. Another delightful person. So shout out to Josh and both of those episodes if you want to go listen to them so The Last Guardian was for me completing the trilogy and obviously well I guess if you didn't listen to those episodes. You don't know so I'll tell you I adore Shadow of the Colossus. Even though I was so late to it. It's one of those games that I heard like unlimited hype about for decades almost and then when I finally played it. It lived up to the hype. It was one of those things that did live up to the Hype and I liked Ico. It's kind of complicated going back to that early game but I really appreciate it and I had a good amount of ah enjoyment from actually playing it myself too. So The Last Guardian was always there but it took me finally playing Shadow of the Colossus and then Ico to finally be okay. I'll give The Last Guardian a try. I had always heard about technical issues and long loading times and things but I felt like the ps5 might help with that and I think it did um and it's also on the Ps plus catalog if you subscribe to that you.

06:33.41
Chris
Um, yeah.

06:41.57
Dave
You know, I “have it for free” right now so you can just go play it so that is what brought me to this and to get into some quick opening thoughts here at the beginning I felt like this game was kind of a mix of both of the previous games though. It reminded me more of eco than shadow of the colossus. And despite having the feeling that you can feel the development hell that this game kind of went through and the long development Cycle. Its origins as a PS3 game. You can feel that when you play this but this game is magical. It's wonderful.

07:09.24
Chris
Um, yeah.

07:20.17
Dave
I really really love this. I could not stop playing it when I was up. I said I played it for 13 hours. That was maybe like 4 or 5 play sessions like I legitimately couldn't put this game down a lot of it has to do with Trico the companion and ah. Kind of the mystery surrounding where you are, what this place is, the hidden story behind it all so we're going to dig into all of those things I'm really excited too. But I really love this game.

07:50.89
Chris
Yeah, um I was really struck by it. Um I had almost the opposite play experience of you where I generally can only take a little bit of this at a time. Um I played it kind of in 1 hour play sessions over a span of weeks. Um.

07:54.56
Dave
Okay, okay.

08:06.41
Chris
Because ah so this game is just wildly beautiful. There's no getting around the fact that it came out in 2016 and for my money. It is still one of the best looking playstation games you can play um a lot of that is down to the art direction. Um.

08:22.72
Dave
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

08:25.66
Chris
Like just even the architecture. It's vast in a way that boggles the mind and and I'm into that you know I guess ah love Crafty and isn't the right touch point for it. But it's got that larger than life kind of vibe that I really like and that Shadow of the Colossus and Ico had too.

08:44.91
Chris
That said, the gameplay of this is almost constantly at odds with what you want to do like executing your goal in the game um has as an impediment.

08:58.63
Dave
Ah, yeah.

09:03.38
Chris
The very controls of the game. it's it's it's almost uniquely clunky in a way that to be honest I feel like games haven't been since the 90s I think this? ah this almost felt like a PS1 game to me like a really fancy PS1 game in that it.

09:08.99
Dave
Yeah.

09:21.44
Chris
Takes controls in really surprising directions and that can be a bummer for you know you get home from work and want to play a game but it can also unlock this kind of world of magic like you were talking about. This is not like anything else. You've played double edge sword.

09:24.15
Dave
Aha.

09:34.98
Dave
Yeah, yeah, absolutely and you know worth noting that eco and shadow of the colossus are also famously weird to control even the remake of shadow of the Colossus doesn't feel like a modern game control wise. But

09:53.57
Dave
There was a hint of this in Shadow of the Colossus and we'll really dig into this but I want to put it out on front street. But the way that the game controls and like you said, kind of fighting it to get things accomplished to me enhances the story and the.

10:09.45
Dave
Kind of relationship between your main character and your companion in this game which is ah we can have a little debate about whether that is the intent, whether it's a happy accident or whether it's just a plain detractor from the game because I think that you could see it any of those ways and that's. What makes this so interesting to me?

10:31.43
Chris
Yeah I agree wholeheartedly. Um, and I think it would be a little bit reductive to refer to it strictly as a shortcoming because at least part of it must be intentional. The difficulty you have is like conveying and communicating nonverbally.

10:36.24
Dave
Um, yeah I would like to think so yeah.

10:48.13
Chris
So to speak with this creature ah is just it's inherently challenging and I really like that I like that part of it even when I was like Trico for goodness sake I've been you know, jumping up and down on your back for five full minutes um you know what? What are you doing buddy? But

11:00.18
Dave
Yeah.

11:06.50
Chris
That is so part and parcel of the magic of the experience. The game is about communication and the difficulties therein the bigger challenge that I ran into was um and this is true in all of this is true in all of Fumito Ueda's games. Um. But by golly, there's a lot of input lag and not um, you know, not like like you're playing an old 8 bit game on a modern console input lag but like ah the main character in this I I never timed it but he takes it feels like a full second to charge up to moving.

11:26.52
Dave
Oh okay.

11:43.20
Dave
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

11:44.28
Chris
He's from a standing position. It's like he needs to get running in place a little bit and then he starts moving. He stops kind of slowly just a lot of stuff like that. Um, just the actual controlling the avatar was a little rough around the edges in a way that I found challenging.

11:59.71
Dave
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:01.82
Chris
That part I feel like maybe is a little bit. I don't want to say it's unintentional. I think it's part and parcel of having such a well animated character. Ah there's always this tension in 3D games between how um, realistically a character is modeled in it in their actions. And how quickly they react to your inputs and unfortunately I think this one comes out as kind of a cautionary tale of having extremely ah detailed. Well-realized avatar actions at the expense of input.

12:20.78
Dave
Yeah.

12:35.49
Dave
Yeah I can definitely see that for sure and we'll put a pin in this and we'll revisit this because this is definitely like it. It plays in with basically everything about the game in a way that not a lot of other games.

12:53.67
Dave
In a way that I couldn't say about a lot of other games I'll put it that way but there is a lot to dig into. It is an endlessly interesting game and good thing for us and for everybody listening is we have the time to dig into it So we're gonna listen to a bit of music and then when we come back.

13:11.72
Dave
We are going to talk about the story and we are going to intertwine gameplay in this episode with the story because they are truly inseparable here. So let's enjoy that music and we will come back. In The Last Guardian the game is framed as a narration by the main character much later as an older man in the game. The character is a young boy he is not named just known as the boy whenever narration happens. The narrator's voice is by Hiroshi Shirokuma although this is not a real language being narrated. We'll say it's Subtitled. It's a made up language. Um, the opening credits of the game kind of get you started in an interesting way. So the opening credits start. It shows a picture book.

14:01.89
Dave
Full of animals ranging from normal stuff like you got armadillos and stuff like that and then all the way up to fantastical beasts like griffins, unicorns and the last page is about an animal called a Trico and a Trico kind of looks like a cat Bird. Mix up. Um where I put this.

14:24.31
Chris
I think I think that's an apt way to describe I think you referred to it elsewhere in the notes as a cat bird dog. Yes, yeah I like that.

14:31.90
Dave
Yes, in my elevator pitch a catbird dog. Yeah, um, and the name Trico supposedly comes as a portmanteau of the japanese words for bird and cat. It can also mean in japanese prisoner or Baby Bird this is all according to people who speak japanese as I don't but that is kind of a description of the Trico it is cat shaped but it has feathers. It's got some horns on its head. Yeah.


15:04.53
Dave
So the boy wakes up in a cave and he remembers a quote wakes up remembers this quote be amongst the chosen and he turns around to find himself face to face with a Trico which ah supposedly are these legendary man-eating monsters.

15:23.26
Dave
This Trico however is chained to the ground and is badly wounded by a bunch of spears. So The game gets started. You have to go over and help the Trico out by pulling the spears out of it and then releasing it from the chain and then they escape together. From this room they were stuck in this cave and they went out into this enormous fortress type structure and that's basically like the story push is. You're just trying to get out of here and you have to work together with this creature. All the legends say is this dangerous man-eating beast and you definitely get the feeling that this one is dangerous for sure. But you have no choice but to work together.

16:07.93
Chris
Oh yeah, yeah I like that they kind of set the tone for how dangerous this creature can be um because he flings you like a piece of paper when you first as the boy tried to release him. Um.

16:16.78
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

16:23.45
Chris
So there is this really strong element of danger early on and the game does force you a bit to take it on faith that that the creature is ah is ah not going to hurt you even though it could.

16:37.41
Dave
Right? It definitely could and like you said, like very early I think it's like you pull out one spear in it bashes you across the room. Basically so definitely. But you really have no choice. There's some other mystery to this: the boy wakes up and he's covered in these weird tattoos.

16:44.31
Chris
Right? right.

16:57.10
Dave
Ah, these weird markings. You don't know what this place is that you're in and your only companion your only source of help in this is this supposed man eating beast and I think that the core relates. Ah that and I think that is the core theme of this game.

17:14.77
Dave
Establishing and then evolving and you know working with that relationship between the boy and Trico so we're going to spend a lot of time here talking about how this works both through gameplay and story purposes.

17:29.84
Dave
We talked about before the show if we separated these sections we would literally just say the same things in each section because this game is kind of uniquely set up in that way. But I love that the main thing in this game kind of similar to Ico. But. More evolved and more foreign in this game is it's all about the boy and Trico their relationship. How it evolves how things change between them. It's just a really interesting setup.

17:52.50
Chris
You have.

18:02.61
Chris
Yeah, it's downright beautiful and um I think this type of story wouldn't work nearly as well. If it were told in a more traditional way I think we get maybe 3 cut scenes throughout this entire game. And the rest of the story is experienced almost entirely through direct interaction and reaction from Trico. Ah so it brings you into the story in a way that I think only a game can.

18:21.94
Dave
Um, yeah, yeah.

18:30.29
Dave
Yeah, absolutely um I think that there would be a way for another medium to show this relationship to you but there are definite enhancements from.

18:42.92
Dave
Doing this all mostly through gameplay like you want Trico to help with something and it doesn't understand you or or it gets distracted and you get frustrated and that all works. But before we get too deep. Let me paint a better picture for what a Trico looks like. First of all, the Trico is huge. You are ah.

18:43.27
Chris
Um, it's right.

19:02.37
Dave
Ah child, I know ten 12 year old kids, something like that and the Trico is many many many times bigger than the boy so you literally have to climb to get up on its back and so. You know the danger comes from that too from its sheer size and the thought like okay what if it just gets sick of me or something like that. What if it actually is this man eating beast and it was just letting me help it get out and now it's now it's mealtime or something. Um.

19:24.46
Chris
In.

19:33.41
Chris
Yeah, and I don't know about you but I actually managed to fall off its back once or twice when it was jumping so you can get inadvertently injured by it even in the course of gameplay you know, just just kind of emergent. It's not scripted or anything.

19:38.67
Dave
Yeah, yeah for sure.

19:48.64
Chris
But your character can get hurt just due to the sheer size of the beast.

19:52.62
Dave
Yeah, yeah, 100% um you have to grab onto its feathers when it's going to jump or else you will tumble off so like I said the Trico has a kind of feline body shape kind of feline movements to it all its ears look like cat ears.

19:55.33
Chris
In.

20:08.95
Dave
But the whole body is covered by feathers. It has bird-like legs and feet. It has 2 small wings on its back but they are undeveloped. They're not fully grown so it can't fly and it has these 2 small horns on its head.

20:25.20
Chris
Yep.

20:25.27
Dave
It has catlike eyes with a kind of reflective lens. I don't know eye parts I forgot from my biology classes but you know you shine a light on a cat. You see the reflection and its eye color can change depending on its mood so that is a way that they convey.

20:35.58
Chris
Yeah.

20:44.37
Dave
Trico's emotion to you along with its movements because you mentioned animation for the boy earlier the animation work that went into Trico is really really impressive to me.

20:59.48
Chris
Yeah, for my money. It's still the best I've ever seen. Um I don't know if you have any pets Dave ah oh okay, this creature reminds me so much of 1 of my 2 dogs like just even down to the way that it.

21:03.14
Dave
Um I do yeah.

21:14.31
Chris
That it moves is more cat-like than dog-like but some of its reactions are very dog-like like the way that it reacts to um, like the main character being in pain or or that sort of thing. Um and just.

21:26.45
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

21:31.21
Chris
Even down to the facial animations of this creature like this is a fantastical creature I've never seen in real life and the fact that I could understand immediately what the emotions of this creature were just based on its movements is.

21:43.49
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

21:47.25
Chris
I Don't know that's a real testament to the animators there.

21:49.70
Dave
Yeah, the attention to detail with facial animations and body language from Trico is really really good and if you're at all familiar with mostly dogs like you said it did remind me of a lot of dog body language but cats too in the way that it moves.

22:08.60
Dave
So if you're at all familiar with " oh okay, like its ears are down that means it's cautious. It's nervous about something so like immediately you grab onto that and it's really well realized the movements the jumps.

22:14.85
Chris
Yep.

22:23.25
Dave
It's very graceful despite its size. So that's where the kind of feline side of it comes from despite the fact that it is so big that it is you know, stomping around the ground shakes when it lands a couple times when like Trico jumps down into a body of water and you get this like enormous wave just from how big the thing is.

22:40.53
Chris
Yeah, it's great. The wave is even necessary to solve a puzzle at one point which I was surprised by. But yeah I did think that it was funny I may be unintentionally so but I did get kind of a chuckle out of the fact that Trico I'm not sure if he ever has a good landing.

22:42.97
Dave
Um, yeah, yeah.

22:55.62
Dave
Yeah.

22:57.94
Chris
In the course of the game when he's jumping to another platform he narrowly grabs onto all ledges so many times over the course of this game only outnumbered I guess by the number of times that I barely grabbed onto a ledge.

23:11.90
Dave
Exactly yeah like they did it in order like in doing research for how to animate Trico they must have watched a bunch of videos of cats almost making it onto the ledge. They're trying to jump onto something. Um.

23:24.44
Chris
Um, yeah.

23:28.17
Dave
Ah, the movements for Trico are really great to the way that you know it dips its head to get through lower to get through passageways or even if the passageway is Trico sized which there's a you know. Alarming number of Trico-sized passageways in this fortress. But um, just the way that it I don't know it just feels lifelike when you're going through an enclosed space. You know, crawling or like scrambling through smaller passages.

24:03.50
Dave
All the jumps the way that it climbs everything about it. It just feels super lifelike and very readable in a way that like us in the real world dog and cat owners will immediately identify with.

24:19.96
Chris
Yeah I think that goes a long way towards making this game, um, playable because it is a less readable companion given that you don't have any like Ui. You don't have any map like you would in a more traditional game. Um. I At least found a lot of the solutions of the puzzle coming down to me poking around a room and watching what Trico was doing and he doesn't have that you know navi from legend of Zelda like here's how you solve the Puzzle Link. You know he just can tell that he's kind of inspecting the environment as well. So It's not a solution here but rather that Trico even when you're not directly interacting with him has his own kind of internal life related to the environment.

24:59.95
Dave
Yeah, that helps a lot with gameplay and it helps to give Trico a lot of personality too because a lot of times when there's something novel in an environment. You will probably need it to solve a puzzle and maybe you don't see it right away but like.

25:13.80
Chris
Right.

25:19.19
Dave
Let's say there's a thing hanging from the ceiling and very catlike Trico will go over and start batting at it and playing with it or something or Trico will get distracted by it. There's this like this like neon gas in the environment that he fucking loves. Yeah, so.

25:33.51
Chris
Um, yes, Trico loves that gas.

25:37.46
Dave
Whenever that happens you know like okay this is important for something I can use this to lure Trico somewhere or maybe I have to shut it off to get Trico to focus and move forward. Um, it does feel like you're working with a living thing with its own personality in its own interests in the world around you.

25:56.58
Dave
Similar to you know if you take your dog to an unfamiliar spot your dog's going to explore it and see what's out there so it feels the same way here.

25:59.98
Chris
Yeah, yeah, I really like those few moments when you first get to a new area each time and you get off of Trico and you're inspecting and he's inspecting and then you kind of come together to try to figure out a puzzle.

26:13.10
Dave
Yeah, exactly yeah another thing that lends personality and a little bit of helpful gameplay stuff too is the Tricos is the sound design for Trico which I think is really really.

26:32.10
Dave
Well- realized Trele Trico is very vocal depending on what's going on depending on the context. Um there's a vocalization to let you know that Trico is getting ready to do a big jump so you know you gotta hold on tight. So you don't fall off down into the bottomless pits Trico. There are threats. In the game Trico will know that roar at them makes nervous noises when something's creeping them out. There's a lot of personality and again gameplay function to vocal design sound design too with Trico.

27:02.77
Chris
Yeah, the further you go the more he starts to whine when you leave him the more he starts to whine and a it foregrounds that relationship which is the core of the the game but B it just breaks your heart.

27:14.57
Dave
Um, yeah, yeah.

27:19.50
Chris
Ah, you're like come on buddy you know I'll be back in a minute I swear like don't freak out too much. It's like you know, just breaks your heart.

27:25.00
Dave
Yeah, and as you go you learn more about what those sounds mean just like you would if you spent time with a real animal and you can know you said you're a dog owner so you can discern what different vocalizations from your dog means.

27:42.35
Chris
Exactly.

27:44.26
Dave
So you get that same kind of learning process with Trico here too. It's just I mean I have like almost nothing but good things to say about like the design, the animation, the sound design of this creature. You can tell like I don't want to say that. This is why they spent so long making this game but you can tell they were like this has to work. This is the entire game if Trico doesn't work. The entire game is going to fall apart.

28:12.50
Chris
Yeah I feel pretty confident that that's it. Um, whether it's you know the ai portion because for all the world Trico just feels like ah a living thinking creature it you know I'm sure it helps that it's not a human you know, um so that so that probably helps some of that Uncanny Valley stuff

28:19.56
Dave
Yeah.

28:29.19
Chris
But um, the other side of it is just the fact that Trico is so extensively animated and articulated every one of his feathers as far as I could tell is moving independently and he's got a lot of feathers. So i.

28:41.90
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

28:45.32
Chris
I just can't imagine how much this would have chugged on the PS 3

28:47.19
Dave
Yeah, yeah, almost thankful that it did get delayed to the point where I'm now easily playing it on a PS5 and that's that's probably helping out a lot.

28:56.20
Chris
Yeah, there's a little technical fun fact that I just have to drop in here. Um about ah this game on the tech side is for players who have ah a physical version of the game a disk version of it in a disk-based playstation. 5

29:01.19
Dave
Sure.

29:14.50
Chris
If you put the disk into the ps 5 and don't patch the game. It will actually run at an unlocked 60 frames per second even though the game you know, ah traditionally they patched it back in the ps4 days to run it at a locked 30 frames per second I didn't test this out because my understanding is that it breaks a couple of the puzzles. And this game looks so gorgeous at the 30 frames per second I was like I don't I don't need anything more you know, but that is just a fun little technical quirk about it.

29:40.37
Dave
Yeah, yeah, interesting. Yeah, some yeah sometimes you do run into that with higher frame rates making puzzles, especially sometimes unsolvable because of the way that they're tied in with that.

29:58.58
Dave
But yeah, that's interesting. Um, so in the game itself as you're navigating through this fortress as you are trying to get out the boy and Trico need to work together to solve a bunch of puzzles the way that you described it Chris as the. World's largest zelda dungeon or something like that. It is really a series of navigation and environmental puzzles. Lots of ah, there's a door or gate that's locked. We need to figure out how to open the gate and stuff like that. Um, the boy is often.

30:30.50
Chris
Yep.

30:36.70
Dave
Not able to do it all by himself or not able to reach the place where he will be able to pull a lever and open the door so you need Trico's help and that's where the big gameplay side of this comes in and of course. This reinforces characters and themes of the game too. The fact that you need Trico's help but at the end of the day Trico doesn't speak your language Trico is an animal and sometimes Trico just feels like he has a mind of his own. So sometimes maybe you need him to lift you up somewhere.

31:07.49
Chris
Um, yeah.

31:11.80
Dave
But he's distracted by a chain over there or sometimes Trico is hungry and he won't do anything until you give him some food. There are these barrels that you find that you have to feed to Trico barrels filled with this lovely neon goo again that he loves so very much. Um.


31:31.60
Dave
Sometimes you will because you have a button that you can use to call Trico or you can point in direction and kind of gesture like over there is something and he'll you know he'll figure it out. There's the thing over there I need to pull this thing but sometimes you'll hit that button and he'll just look at you just kind of stare straight. It's like.

31:39.20
Chris
Right.

31:50.88
Dave
You know when it's midnight and I've let my dog out for the last time for the night for the night and I'm ready to go to bed and I want him to come inside and I'm like calling him and he's just staring right back at me like you want me to come in you up and get me. Yep.

32:02.75
Chris
Man it is the exact same thing. It is the exact same thing. That's all I could think of when I was trying to get Trico to solve a puzzle in this was like yup I know that look you know and did you ever get Trico um for me at least sometimes he would if I gave him too many commands.

32:09.77
Dave
Um, yeah, yep, finish.

32:20.46
Chris
He would start kind of making annoyed noises at me.

32:21.23
Dave
Oh I don't remember that in particular but there were times when I did mash that button and it did not help.

32:29.86
Chris
Yeah, yeah, yeah I when I was trying to have him move around in the environment and sometimes I would direct him in opposite directions too much. He'd start going like where you know like making this kind of annoyed ah kind of squawking sound.

32:44.46
Dave
Moon. The fact that he does react to what you do and sometimes he seems like he doesn't understand sometimes he seems like maybe he does understand but he doesn't feel like it sometimes he likes you said annoyed.

33:06.45
Dave
Seems annoyed at you for telling him what to do so much and my dog gets the same way I can tell sometimes I'm like you know sit and he's like no I am no I don't feel like it right now and hell my dog's extremely vocal so he'll let me, he'll let me know loudly um.

33:20.75
Chris
Ah, yep.

33:23.77
Dave
And then sometimes like you want Trico to go over and it just feels like he doesn't understand or doesn't want to whatever and this is kind of like that thing that I mentioned before we started digging into the story like this is a. This is characterization for Trico. But also it directly impacts your gameplay experience. So I have heard out there. Lots of times from people who like and don't like this game that this is the main source of frustration throughout the game.

33:49.63
Chris
Um, and.

34:01.60
Dave
Is trying to get Trico to do exactly what you want him to do and so you can look at it a number of ways like I said you can look at it as this is a decision by the designers to have Trico sometimes.

34:20.44
Dave
Disobey you or not understand you because that's what an animal might do sometimes or you know just not understand you because why would the animal understand you know commands you're giving it. You just met a couple hours ago. Um you can look at it as the Ai doesn't work the way that it should.

34:30.42
Chris
Um, right.

34:40.13
Dave
In the game, it's a technical shortcoming of the game. Um I choose to look at it as the more you know romantic view of it I guess the way that it's it's at least somewhat intentional and helps with the characterization and I talked about this in the shadow of the Colossus episode about the horse Agro.

35:00.60
Dave
In that way it feels. It's plausible to me that it's a PS2 game and they didn't have, you know, great AI for the horse. But that horse did feel like it had its own personality as a result also and it's just some so expanded here in this game because it's the whole game.

35:11.65
Chris
Um, yeah.

35:17.53
Chris
Yeah, this does feel like an evolution on Agro for sure. Um, it feels like ah Trico is almost ah, a combination of agro and the colossae from shadow of the colossus. It's like the 2 kinds of came together and made a Trico.

35:27.82
Dave
Yeah.

35:34.70
Chris
Um, you know what's funny is I don't think that technical shortcomings are inherently bad when they do contribute to the theme of a piece of art like constraints can be very important for art. Um.

35:46.11
Dave
Yeah.

35:51.95
Chris
And I would say that this is one of those scenarios where um, even if it is an Ai programming issue. It only gets in the way. I would say maybe 20% of the time I can think of a handful of puzzles that I feel like I got through them through dumb luck. You know I was trying to communicate something to Trico that I had. Just off the top of my head where you need to make Trico dive and you got me. It worked out eventually but it was tough but as far as technical constraints go I'm thinking back to like the original resident evil and this is a game that was supposed to be a first- person shooter when they were originally creating it.

36:13.80
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

36:30.50
Chris
And they couldn't get the frame rate good enough with the level of detail they wanted on the original playstation and so they shifted over to these weird cinematic camera angles and so what was a technical constraint became one of the core parts of the series for a decade these cinematic camera angles that set the tone for horror.

36:44.58
Dave
Yeah.

36:49.69
Chris
Ah, in games. So if you know I think that the 2 dovetail neatly together.

36:54.65
Dave
Yeah, and I can say without a shadow of doubt if Trico worked perfectly and I'm saying that in air quotes works perfectly. You know response to every command exactly the way that you want him to in this game would be worse if that were the case.

37:12.86
Chris
Um, it would yep.

37:14.37
Dave
Ah, you would not develop the sort of connection because your ability to interact with Trico evolves as the game goes on to ah you start out with just a simple press the button to yell Trico's name and it evolves past that I won't say how but it does.

37:32.64
Dave
Ah, and if yeah, if Trico was just this perfect machine. It would lose a lot of that lifelike quality that is so core to the relationship. The theme of you know its relationship with the boy. The game would be worse. It would be noticeably worse and.

37:45.57
Chris
Yeah.

37:51.33
Dave
I agree with you that you know quote shortcomings or friction points or things like that can really enhance your experience with art and we've talked about that several times on this podcast including 1 discussion all about.

38:10.33
Dave
The value of things like that, things that are not necessarily fun like, is it fun to try to, you know, spend 5 minutes trying to get Trico to look in the direction you want him to look no, it's frustrating but this is an animal.

38:27.00
Dave
They're trying to create a lifelike animal and if you really want to commit to that realism. This is you know this should be part of it I think.

38:33.53
Chris
Yeah, it reminds me a lot of like ah papers please like would papers please be more fun quote unquote if um, it was a little bit cleaner and easier to navigate your your papers didn't keep all covering each other up you're working with on the interface. Yes, you know it.

38:45.77
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

38:52.50
Chris
Every game could be an endless runner and there's a place for those but sometimes the value that you're driving towards is at odds with fun and not everything can be fun.

39:02.53
Dave
Yeah, and you know frankly if video games are to be appreciated as art the way that the both of us want them to and the way that we both appreciate in the way we're talking about this game. Um.

39:19.13
Dave
We have to accept that. Not everything is going to be pure fun. There's going to be frustration because not all art is pure happy Happy Joy time all the time. So it's really valuable to have that friction in this game and that part you talked about with the diving.

39:37.48
Dave
That was frustrating because I didn't know how I was. I knew what I had to do but I didn't know how and like you it happened eventually and I was like okay I hope I don't have to do that again and I didn't have to do that again. So it turned out to be fine overall. But

39:54.94
Dave
Another nice touch about Trico that I just wanted to make ah a little note of it's a little characterization thing Trico is a shy eater and it starts out right in that first room in the game you have to feed him in order to help him get some strength to stand up and and help out you find the food barrels around and they're.

40:13.84
Dave
Might even be an achievement for giving Trico all the barrels or a certain number of them there.

40:18.27
Chris
Yeah I think so there is some kind of completionist element of finding all of the barrels.

40:22.69
Dave
Yeah, it's kind of similar to like well it doesn't have like a mechanical difference I don't think not like the Lizards and stuff in shadow of the colossus. But that is this game's version of like secrets like if you explore.

40:39.14
Dave
In nooks and crannies often that is what you'll be rewarded with is food for Trico but when you give it to him he kind of just looks at you. He's shy and so you have to go to the other side of the room or else. He won't eat it. So it's a really nice touch. Very small thing overall but it pays off.

40:57.90
Chris
I don't know if you noticed this and it might might have just been my imagination because with with something like Trico you are always wondering how much how much am I imbuing this character as opposed to what's actually in the game but I found later on in the game when I would throw barrels towards him. He would be nervous about them.

40:58.52
Dave
It's good.

41:07.37
Dave
Yeah.

41:17.48
Chris
But if I picked them up, walked them over and sat them down. He'd be much more inclined to eat them So over time I started gently bringing him barrels as opposed to throwing them to him.

41:26.98
Dave
Yeah, and I think back to the first time in that very first room and I don't consider this to be a spoiler. It's like minute 5 in the game in that first room you are afraid of Trico.

41:42.45
Dave
So I like standing as far away as I can and hurling the barrels so that I don't have to get close to him. Yeah, yeah, um, speaking of so we talked about all of these nice things and partnership and Trico helping out Trico is.

41:44.96
Chris
Um, yeah, pulling a Donkey Kong

42:01.91
Dave
Again, This big potentially dangerous animal and there are threats in the game to the boy and to Trico himself So the boy can't fight. It is well no, it's not similar to the other ones because Eco can fight and wander can fight. 

42:11.80
Chris
Um, yeah.

42:21.59
Dave
The boy cannot really fight. There are a couple of like maneuvers. You can do to help yourself out but you can't pick up a sword and hit something with it in this game. It's not that kind of game. Yeah, and.

42:32.45
Chris
Um, yeah, and even the maneuvers are very clunky. They're unreliable.

42:36.84
Dave
I did not know about them as I was playing. I found out about them after the fact just by reading so limited vocabulary for dealing with hostile things in the game of which there are plenty so you have to let Trico protect you and um.

42:56.17
Dave
This is another thing that helps out with characterization. Trico wants to say he's a willing fighter but he's not really, he'll do it and he seems compelled to do it. But another thing I Really like about it is after it's all over.

43:15.48
Dave
You have to calm Trico down, you have to pet him. You have to soothe him. You can tell that this affects him in some way and I found that to be really effective. You know gameplay wise. It's always a puzzle to try to get Tricode to attack the things that keep you safe.

43:20.84
Chris
Um, yeah.

43:33.10
Dave
Until it's all over and then you have this extra thing where it's like Trico's really freaked out. You have to go soothe him and calm him down.

43:42.50
Chris
Yeah I really like that too. Um I I like that as the game went on as well. Um I discovered that you can kind of help Trico during combat which is not immediately apparent. Um, and I'm not sure that it really matters. Quote unquote because I I'm not aware of Trico being able to lose encounters I'm not sure.

44:01.82
Dave
Yeah, they're like enemies will throw Spears and stuff like that and so like part of what I did because I can't fight my thing was always like stay out of harm's way and a lot of times. The best place to be is hanging on to Trico's back so

44:05.63
Chris
Um, right.

44:17.34
Chris
Oh interesting I Usually tried to pull them away and distract them because while they were coming after me Trico could smash them.

44:21.44
Dave
Ah, least for me.

44:27.47
Dave
Right? right? Um, yeah sometime. Yeah you you.

44:32.99
Chris
Um I like that you can also knock them down. You can knock them over and and pull their at least the soldiers you can pull their helmet off.

44:40.67
Dave
Yeah, at a certain point you do get a kind of like shoulder bash move that maybe you had the whole time and they just never told you you had it but I'm not I'm not completely sure.

44:44.27
Chris
And. I think you do have it the old the whole time if only because every time that I started this game up I would be just pressing all of the buttons if a couple of days had gone by and at least a few times I ran into enemies before it taught me how to do it and I thought what's that about.

45:00.90
Dave
Yeah, okay, yeah there you go? Um, so yeah, the safest place to me was often like on Trico's back just hanging on for dear life and then sometimes you'll get a spear sticking into them and.

45:18.91
Dave
You can go out. You have a dedicated button to pull the spears out so that was kind of like my job during combat was to help trio out and I don't know if you let things go too long if they can kill him or not I wasn't going to find out I wanted to help the boy out.

45:32.22
Chris
Yeah I was the same it never got that far because I was pulling the spears out or getting the encounter over as quickly as possible because I yeah whether he can die or not you know I didn't want to see Trico hurt.

45:40.71
Dave
Right? right? right? exactly and that's kind of like a nice little segue into kind of wrapping up thoughts about the story in the gameplay again. The story is I think there's 2 main things going on. There's a mystery to the whole thing similar to every game that this studio has. Ah, the main designer Ueda has made There's always a big mystery. You don't know what this place is, why it was built, things like that. So you're kind of figuring that out and that is told to you to some extent though they hide a lot of details from you too. The other part of it is and more importantly, that growing relationship between the boy. And Trico and over 13 hours of doing all these things we talked about struggling to get Trico to respond to things that I'm going to save for the spoiler section of course but there are a lot of really affecting moments from both sides from things Trico does things the boy does.

46:51.27
Dave
Things that they go through together. It's just ah, it ended up being a really really surprising story with what is actually revealed to you is going on how you ended up there in the first place stuff like that and then it is a really touching story.

47:09.13
Dave
As well when you see what both of them go through together.

47:13.56
Chris
Um, yeah I agree.

47:16.50
Dave
So in order to not say too much. We'll put a pin in story talk for now and and we'll take a break. We'll listen to a bit of Music. We'll come Back. We'll talk about the way this game looks, we'll talk about the music and. Then we'll wrap up our thoughts and spoilers will be coming in the near future. 

49:07.80
Dave
So you mentioned much earlier when we're doing our kind of general opening thoughts talking about the visual design of this game and how you said that this is one of the most beautiful games currently available on any playstation and from an art design.

49:20.87
Chris
Oh yeah, for sure.

49:26.14
Dave
Architecture perspective this is pretty damn hard to beat if you're looking for intense 4K visual realism. This is not that game but I don't really care when you know the place that you're in in this game because the whole thing takes place in this fortress. This place is ah.

49:33.50
Chris
Yeah, yeah.

49:44.76
Dave
It's Magical. It's huge. It's got that thing that eco and shadow of the Colossus both did with like this just impossible scale of how big this place is um, like I said all of these you know doorways are Trico sized which. Is odd but it all fits because this place just feels so impossibly big the way that they designed this place to look is really impressive too.

50:08.92
Chris
Yeah, it feels like the only other developer who I can think of who accomplishes architecture at this scale is maybe from soft in like the the souls and and Eldon ring games where there is this. Impossible vastness like something out of dreams. But um, even they I don't think quite accomplish the I I don't even have a word for it. It's just it's the biggest architecture you could ever imagine. It's just you feel like an ant.

50:38.29
Dave
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely like you it helps with that feeling of that fish out of water feeling because this place is very obviously not made for you as a ah boy, everything's too big for you.

50:56.85
Dave
Ah, that's why you need Trico's help to reach you know ledges and stuff like that. But there is that kind of impossible scale to it all. The place itself is huge. It's built you know, surrounded by these impossibly large cliffs and then below you are these impossibly large chasms.

50:58.78
Chris
Right.

51:17.11
Dave
When you look down you see clouds in this game. You know, maybe that's ah, an artistic choice so they don't have to show you? What's at the bottom but it is like an unfathomable size to this place which. Really helps with the sense of wonder as you're exploring and every time you get a vista in this game. Ah you you just look out I have a bunch of screenshots where I was just like Wow like look at this place.

51:38.14
Chris
Yeah, yeah, it's just it's consistently breathtaking and I find it particularly impressive that they accomplish that without much in the way of Adornment. It's not, I would say, a Spartan environment.. There are some flourishes but by and large it is very um, it's very Unadorned. It's a lot of massive stonework without much in the way of refined surfaces.

51:56.76
Dave
Yeah.

52:06.15
Dave
Yeah, yeah, and that's one of the things that Uwada is kind of known for, that minimalist storytelling and environments in their games are some of the big ways where that stands out like there's not a lot of extraneous detail.

52:17.22
Chris
Um, and.

52:22.40
Chris
Um, yeah.

52:25.94
Dave
And it's important in a game like this where you enter a new room and the thing that you're trying to figure out is what do I have to interact with in order to move on. There's not a lot of distracting things that end up not being important. Um and that's not to say that there's no detail in the place or that there is no.


52:45.83
Dave
You know, stone carving or anything like that. There's plenty of that. It's just very easy to tell what's important in the room because there's no,, There's no distraction in the way that they've designed the place, it still looks detailed to me. Looks impressive from that perspective. But I was never confused about what's actually important for me as the player.

53:09.95
Chris
Yeah that's one of the biggest game design challenges I would say over pretty much from the beginning of like the playstation 4 xbox 1 era in the early twenty ten s as visual fidelity went up and level of detail went up is that. It. It is challenging to create a quote unquote convincing immersive environment that also makes it clear what the player's objective in that environment is and there are shortcuts around this the famous what are they like the aren't yeah the yellow paint you know ah that is that is kind of an elegant.

53:41.20
Dave
The yellow paint. Yeah.

53:47.99
Chris
Ah, shortcut to resolve this but it's interesting to see Ueda take a different path of making the environment so unadorned that generally 9 times out of 10 your objective is clear just from observing the natural environment.

54:00.63
Dave
Yeah, hundred percent that also extends to color and again might be a holdover from this being a PS 3 game the famously brown and gray generation. But it's not a super colorful game and the colors that are in. They are a little bit muted.

54:11.18
Chris
Um, yeah.

54:20.31
Dave
Like you know greens for plants or something like that. Ah, but the things that stand out. There's a lot of neon colors here and there to denote, you know, magical things, purples and blues. Some parts of Trico have that same coloring so you kind of get the feeling like.


54:39.65
Dave
Or the reinforcement that this is a fantastical beast. We're dealing with here. There's magic at play here so that helps with that. I also liked how outdoor areas are very very bright and.

54:43.24
Chris
Um, yeah.

54:56.10
Dave
Or at least it might be my picture. Maybe my Tv is not calibrated because I'm having the same kind of feeling about final fantasy 7 rebirth where I don't think that's an artistic choice in that game. Um, okay.

55:05.24
Chris
I was going to reference Final Fantasy 7 rebirth specifically because that takes this to an entirely new level that brightness issue with with brightness outside versus darkness inside I think I think the effect is much more successful here.

55:13.17
Dave
Okay, well there we go right? Yeah yeah because you spend a lot of time inside in this game and so when you step out into the sunlight. It's going to be bright.

55:24.50
Chris
Ah, yeah.

55:28.91
Chris
Yeah, exactly. But also when you step inside it. It's just for a moment. You know it doesn't generally get in the way of gameplay which is nice.

55:37.18
Dave
Yeah, no, not definitely not but it did feel like an artistic choice to have the outside feel very bright. Yeah, um, let's see there's a lot of cinematography. Ah.

55:44.39
Chris
Um, we are.

55:52.16
Dave
You mentioned earlier There's only a handful of like cutscenes like you know, rendered cutscenes like that there are not that many of those and again, it's back to this kind of minimalist style of storytelling a lot of the stories conveyed through a few moments. There are a bunch of shorter cutscenes.

55:55.17
Chris
Right.

56:11.43
Dave
Where maybe Trico makes a jump and then there's a scramble to get up to a ledge or something's collapsing and there's a big running away section as a bridge collapses beneath you or something like that a lot of moments like that. But the.

56:28.30
Dave
What I would say are like the very expensive cut scenes are pretty few and far between here.

56:31.61
Chris
Yeah, those cut scenes where something was happening to the environment, something alarming and you needed to react to it a moment later reminded me so much of again. This takes me back to this as kind of a really really advanced playstation. 1 game. Because it reminded me so much of those? Um, ah those cut scenes are very brief cut scenes in ps 1 final fantasy games where something big was going on in the environment and you still retained control of your character and so a lot of the time in the big cut scenes here.

57:08.84
Chris
Because they aren't pre-rendered. You can move your avatar around, have them shuffle around on Trico or you know walk around nervously on a bridge that's about to fall apart. It's like it redirects the camera.

57:11.31
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

57:23.29
Chris
Ah, but still allows you the freedom of movement within the space which I think is a cool way to not detract from the intractability of it.

57:34.17
Dave
I'm glad you mentioned the camera too because the camera um especially in those outdoor sections will often Zoom way out or kind of frame up the picture in a way to kind of show off the landscape.

57:47.81
Chris
Um, yeah.

57:49.68
Dave
Ah, in a really cinematic and impressive way to again like the impossible scale of this place. They want you to really take that in Maybe as you're climbing up something precarious and really internalize like well if this thing breaks and I fall this is going to be bad.

58:08.10
Chris
Yeah, it's got this very like early to mid 2000 s japanese game design style where it's like it's western developers I think broadly adopted controllable cameras earlier.

58:22.56
Chris
Um, and Japan was a little slower to adopt it for a lot of good reasons. It limits your options as far as highlighting environmental details and it can be challenging for players who aren't familiar with controlling both an avatar and a camera simultaneously but this has this kind of.

58:42.19
Chris
Awkward transitional phase that a lot of games did in the mid two thousands out of Japan where the camera is controllable most of the time but sometimes it redirects to something it wants you to look at.

58:52.47
Dave
Yeah.

58:55.30
Chris
And I think it's interesting for a game from 2016 to have that you just don't see that very much anymore. So I appreciated that.

59:01.47
Dave
Yeah, a real emphasis on making sure that like they see you see what they want you to see will say yeah and ah yeah.

59:11.80
Chris
Um, yeah, very yeah, like designer led versus player Led philosophies.

59:18.78
Dave
Another thing about this presentation of this game is that there is no real Ui you Basically you just see the action and every this has another , you know, obvious minimalist choice for the game. Um.

59:38.10
Dave
Shadow of the colossus had you know a health bar a stamina bar things like that This game has nothing like that at all. It's just just the game, just the scene.

59:42.61
Chris
Yeah, and even the pause menu I think shows return to checkpoint return to title. You can go to an options menu to impact things like screen brightness and then it's just back to the game. It's.

59:56.26
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

01:00:01.24
Chris
Almost a pause screen from a movie.

01:00:02.65
Dave
Yeah.

01:00:08.42
Chris
I think that choice is also pretty successful. I never felt the lack of a ui in this. Um I think the closest you could come to wanting a ui assuming that your character can't be damaged enough that they die and Trico can't be damaged enough that they die which I never.

01:00:10.23
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:00:25.98
Chris
Tested either enough to find out if either were true in that case, you know maybe a health bar would be helpful but given how it's designed. Um I think the biggest lack is just what you find in a lot of modern games like a compass to tell you which way you're going to your objective and even that would harm the experience by being included.

01:00:44.28
Dave
Yes.

01:00:45.91
Chris
Like the purpose here is the journey. The purpose is figuring out how to get out of the room you're in.

01:00:49.59
Dave
Yeah I agree and I can't think of anything. I can't think of any information that I thought was crucial that the game did not tell me in some way or another. Maybe they went.

01:01:05.45
Dave
With a more artistic way to do that, such as like instead of a marker telling you where the lever is that you have to pull to open the gate, maybe Trico will look at it or something like that. But I got the information so I don't need things filling up the screen here like a mini map would not really have.

01:01:14.59
Chris
Um, yeah, yeah, right? They'd really only distract you from keeping your attention squarely on Trico.

01:01:24.62
Dave
Done much for this game.

01:01:31.52
Chris
And building that relationship by better understanding his body language is core to the the story. It's it's core to what you're doing So I for one I'm glad that they did not include any additional Ui elements.

01:01:38.33
Dave
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well said.

Dave
So the music in The Last Guardian is credited to Tekeshi for Okawa.

01:03:34.26
Dave
Who I looked through a little bit of the credits. Fun fact, credited with the Goldeneye 007 compositions which is ah interesting 2 games to have worked on from the same creator here. Um for previous works. Yeah for sure.

01:03:44.41
Chris
Man that is as fun. A fact as you could have found. That's a wild resume.

01:03:54.11
Dave
Yeah, um, so no music for a lot of the game during the regular game play sections. It is just the sound of your footsteps, environmental sounds, Trico sounds, stuff like that. But during key moments in gameplay or especially during cinematics music will kick in. And when it does kick in it's still in my experience hangs back quite a bit to just kind of set a mood for the scene rather than like I keep making comparisons to shadow of the colossus. But as their previous game but the.

01:04:31.57
Dave
Music and shadow of the colossus is much catchier, much hookier. We'll say as if being catchy is the only sign of quality or something like that. But it is hookier in it. It shifts. It has much more memorable melodies to it. And I think that that's intentional in that game because those melodies signify different parts of those Colossus battles in that game but in here, it's a much more cinematic kind of laid back light piano strings in a lot of those environmental sections and then when you have.

01:04:51.87
Chris
Yeah, yeah.

01:05:09.37
Dave
Intense moments it ratchets up in it. The sound of it can get quite sinister in this game in a way that is really really effective because ah some things that happen in this place. There is some sinister stuff going on.

01:05:25.13
Chris
Oh yeah, yeah, if I may be so bold. Um, the music in this was pretty unmemorable to me and I don't. I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing. I kind of want to hedge my bets because atmospheric music really does have its place.

01:05:31.12
Dave
Yeah.

01:05:43.13
Chris
I've played a lot of games that have music that I couldn't remember a tune from but it was great while I was playing. Um you know 8 bit chiptunes are not the only best case scenario for video game music. You know, right? exactly would that we were so lucky.

01:05:47.80
Dave
Yeah.

01:05:54.34
Dave
Right? You know not everything's Mega Man X Yeah yeah, but it's it is interesting. How yeah it does like it does the thing that atmospheric soundtrack should where it sets the mood and the tone of the scenes that it's in.

01:06:01.37
Chris
No, um, but yeah, it serves its purpose doesn't it.

01:06:13.93
Dave
Um, the music kind of has a curious type of quality to it that helps out when you and Trico are kind of exploring around so it gives a little bit of personality to the characters too. But you are right.

01:06:16.86
Chris
I know.

01:06:28.45
Dave
It is a soundtrack that I played the whole game and I I don't have any of these songs stuck in my head which is not again, not an indicator of quality or effectiveness for a soundtrack. But I think that's the way.

01:06:46.68
Dave
And this is something that I should find better words to convey. I don't have the vocabulary to describe why? it's an effective soundtrack when it's not catchy, but it is um and I think that video game music did come from a place a long time ago and then with you know, a lot of newer games too. Um.

01:06:52.12
Chris
Um, yeah I don't either.

01:07:05.99
Dave
The signifier for a lot of people myself sometimes included of a great video game soundtrack is something that gets stuck in my head and then I want to listen to outside of work which is not fair, but this game kind of made me think of that as I'm putting notes together I'm like I don't remember anything about the soundtrack.

01:07:25.94
Dave
Three weeks after I beat the game I have to go listen to it on Youtube and then I remember that yes this track fits with this type of story moment or this type of environment so it is doing its job and I feel like maybe I just don't have the words to describe. What it is actually doing.

01:07:46.48
Chris
You might say that the soundtrack of this game is inextricably linked with the gameplay in the exact same way that Trico is inextricably linked with the boy that is my single most charitable way to put it. Ah.

01:07:51.22
Dave
Yeah, okay there we go. That's a good way of putting it. Yeah yeah, but it is effective for you to know adding an extra layer of emotion.

01:08:07.66
Chris
Yeah I do like it. Yeah and and it knows when to get out of the way so that you can catch all of the other audio cues.

01:08:09.32
Dave
Or feeling onto story moments that are happening which is the yeah the least? Yeah yeah, 100% and so saying that means that it did do its job and then the fact that a lot of the game has no music is an artistic choice as well. Same way that you know horror games will do this from software is another developer that does this a ton to great effect where no music is just as effective as maybe something intense it lets your mind Wander. So.

01:08:40.24
Chris
Um, yep, exactly.

01:08:47.81
Dave
We are at the end of the non-spoiler section of this episode so we'll wrap up the way we always do so we'll ask the question Chris who would you recommend play The Last Guardian who do you think this would appeal to.

01:09:02.90
Chris
I've been thinking a lot about this um because this game it's it's it's hard to think about who exactly the ideal audience is you know this? This is good. The amount of friction here I think is going to put off somebody who comes into it expecting. Ah, traditional third person action. Um, the amount of action I think is going to put off somebody who comes into this expecting puzzle platform or you know there is combat here and for anybody seeking um a really fancy virtual pet I think the um you know Trico does fulfill that role. But

01:09:26.84
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:09:37.64
Chris
All of the stuff around it is going to put somebody off so all of that being said I would recommend that almost anybody try this game because it is. It's so singular that I think if this hits you just right? Um, it'll be amazing and you will not know until you're playing. If this will hit you just right? like ah just watching this watching gameplay of this is surprisingly dull. Um, you know, just watching somebody push barrels around or Trico jump here and there once it's in the hands. Um. You get that level of interaction with Trico and I think that is the emotional core that could connect to pretty much any player who's willing to, um, get over that initial friction.

01:10:25.87
Dave
Yeah, there is an amount of friction and frustration that you're just gonna have to deal with in this game and as with anything that has that like your mileage is going to vary as to how much of a how much of that detracts. From the experience for me. Personally, it did not really except for maybe 1 or 2 sections that are very short-lived where I just could not progress. I couldn't figure out how to do it other than that any frustration I felt directly tied into characterization and storytelling.

01:11:04.40
Dave
In a really really effective way. So I agree with you. There are a lot of caveats to the experience of playing this as like a pure gameplay experience or as a pure you know if you come to this expecting one of those.

01:11:19.96
Dave
Very cinematic, very light gameplay type of games. That's not this. This is not one of those games. Ah yeah, it is a really unique experience and for that reason it is something that I would recommend to basically anyone who thinks that anything that we've talked about sounds interesting.

01:11:23.46
Chris
Um, now it's unique.

01:11:38.68
Dave
The way that they're characterizing these two that the boy and this animal through gameplay actions and body language and animations and things like that if that sounds interesting to you I think that that part is a home run and again, this game was pretty magical. In my experience I really loved the experience of playing this so it definitely feels like something that anyone who wants to appreciate video games as art or play another game that is appreciated as art should play this. And anybody who likes those types of games where the storytelling is enhanced by the fact that it's an interactive experience. That's definitely this game as Well. It has all of these wonderful qualities about it that you know.

01:12:22.75
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:12:30.82
Dave
If I were to sit and make a list of why I love video games so much like this game checks a bunch of those boxes. So yeah, it's really really easy for me to recommend I Love this and I.

01:12:43.89
Dave
Very excited to see what they come out with next and if it takes them another ten years to come out with something else I'll be there when it's out. Yeah youth sure.

01:12:51.58
Chris
Me too if I could add just ah, just a note of caution to listeners and feel free to to cut this out if it verges into Spoiler territory. Um I would.

01:13:01.30
Dave
Okay.

01:13:06.30
Chris
Ah, caution listeners if you are, um, the kind of player or reader or viewer that really wants the mysteries wrapped up by the end if you want concrete answers to all of your questions. This may disappoint you.

01:13:17.52
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:13:25.40
Chris
Does end up being a somewhat ambiguous experience with the hard details of its world in mythology. So I love that you know I come to art and enjoy things left a bit ambiguous and and the emotional core does have a resolution. But

01:13:31.90
Dave
Yes.

01:13:44.34
Chris
You know if you're the kind of person who is frustrated that ah that the background lore is not explained. This may not be for you.

01:13:55.19
Dave
Yeah, yeah, you'll start out the game with a certain number of questions. What is this place? What is it here for who made it? Who am I? Why am I here? You'll get the answer to like 2 of those questions and that's about it and the rest of it. Um.

01:14:03.69
Chris
Simple. Yes.

01:14:12.70
Dave
I am not actually sure how much concrete information about some of those questions there actually is. I don't think that the game will explicitly tell you much of anything. Um I'm not sure how much that lore hounds have been able to uncover.

01:14:29.34
Dave
Ah, there might be a bunch of this you know like you said lower and world history that is just in the creator's mind and is not ever going to be told to you and I'm okay with that too because the important things were explained to me personally and then that emotional core is very complete.

01:14:47.70
Chris
Exactly yeah.

01:14:48.22
Dave
Experience too. Yeah, agreed there? Yeah, so before we go off into spoiler land. We have some housekeeping to do and as we always do. We'll start with you Chris and talk about Franchise Festival, tell everybody about the show. Its concept and what's going on on the show lately.

01:15:06.74
Chris
Yeah, you bet so since twenty twenty myself and two co-hosts have been running this podcast Franchise Festival. We tackle each season 1 video game franchise so season 1 was legend of zelda season 2 was resident evil. Season 3 was a combination of the games of Supergiant and highlights from the Sonic the Hedgehog catalog and now season 4 is Megaman so we go in-depth with each individual entry.

01:15:35.76
Dave
Right.

01:15:42.93
Chris
Um, for Zelda and Resident Evil and Supergiant we did go you know each individual entry for Megaman that's what we were planning to do and we've kind of shifted the goalposts now we're hitting like at least 1 title from each of the big megaman subseries.

01:15:57.12
Dave
Right.

01:16:00.10
Chris
With the idea that at the end of a season even a person who's not played any of the games will have a really nice familiarity with what they are and we do try to to design the podcast to be appealing both to folks who have played the game and treat it like a book club as well as folks who haven't played the game.

01:16:07.80
Dave
Right.

01:16:19.39
Chris
Um, one of the best comments that we got way back in season 1 described us as not talking. I think it was inside baseball. Yeah, we didn't take a lot of assumptions with what listeners would be familiar with and so consequently.

01:16:33.80
Chris
I Think the podcast has served as a way for listeners to get into a series that they may have been interested in but haven't played a game in previously.

01:16:40.53
Dave
Right? Yeah, and it's first of all, it's ah it's a really good show and I really enjoy the discussions that are had on the show. It's something that like anyone who's listening to tales from the backlog and you're at an hour and 20 minutes or whatever this is like.

01:16:56.88
Dave
Obviously enjoy what we're doing here to some level unless you're hate listening to this in which case. Thank you. The stats are all the same. Um, if you like this show. Yeah, exactly right? not me not I can't not my life. But if you're listening to this show and you like what we're doing here.

01:17:04.89
Chris
Ah, can you imagine having the time.

01:17:15.79
Dave
It is very easy to say that you will like Franchise Festival as well. It's the same you know type of discussion going on about video games as art more development history in Franchise Festival episodes that I do on this show which is always good like I find it interesting I Just don't personally want to.

01:17:34.70
Chris
Right? I'm a historian by training. So it's what got me into the podcasting game to begin with.

01:17:34.19
Dave
These episodes are long enough on this show. But you all go into that I'm not I yeah yeah, oh there, you go? Um, so and I enjoy the um you know the series based approach in this season. Currently as we're recording. We're talking about Megaman and as the day we're recording just a couple days ago the megaman x episode came out which is a really good listen and so by the time you get through a season you'll have this, you know well-rounded experience of. These discussions are about a particular franchise or a developer in the case of Supergiant. So it's ah it's an interesting idea for a show. The execution's really good. I can't recommend it highly enough. Yeah, so.

01:18:21.66
Chris
Well thank you so much Dave I really appreciate you saying so.

01:18:28.41
Dave
You can check down in the show notes for a link to easily check out Franchise festival and like you said, easy to find episodes that you're interested in if you like Resident Evil, go listen to the Resident Evil season and so forth. So yeah down in the show notes you'll find that and then for.

01:18:44.78
Chris
Oh it occurs to me if anybody is not checking the show notes. It's ah gosh what is our link um patreon.com/franchisefestival is our our homepage these days man I totally forget our promo details at times.

01:18:51.95
Dave
Oh there we go? Yeah, nice.

01:19:01.32
Chris
I am by the seat of my pants here.

01:19:01.70
Dave
Ah, right I feel that sometimes you are um, like you know these things in the core of yourself because you work so hard on these things and then once someone asks you to talk about them. You're like what do I do? What's the name of my show? Yeah yeah I get that now.

01:19:10.55
Chris
Um, right? Yeah, I'm a deer in the headlights here. Yeah.

01:19:20.60
Dave
Good ah good description of the show recommended for everyone to check out so again down in the show notes you'll find it and about this show you can support this show the same way as every podcast if you like this episode please consider leaving a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts Spotify Podcast addict or any others that accept those types of things that will help people find this episode and that will also make me feel good and we want that so leaving reviews is helpful. Go leave one for franchise festival as well. Please.

01:19:53.52
Dave
You can join the Discord server if you want to join conversations about the podcast about the games. We talk about gaming in general life, music, movies, etc. We have a wonderful community there. It's one of my favorite places to hang out on the internet. Ah, so again, you'll find an invite link down in the show notes to the Discord Server. You can support monetarily at Patreon.com/realdavejackson where you can vote in polls for what games I do on the show you will get some bonus episodes from time to time. Have a bonus Retro gaming series over there called Tales from the way backlog. And yeah, thank you. That is an interesting experience for me as someone who doesn't normally go out of my way to play very old games. This is a reason to make myself. Do it.

01:20:28.10
Chris
Yeah I Love that show.

01:20:44.30
Dave
And get those new experiences and then finally I have another podcast. It's called a top three podcast. It is a top 3 list draft topic Draft Comedy show with a different vibe. But I think it's a good time and I think you will too. So with all that being said.

01:21:03.90
Dave
We are going to take a break. We're going to catch our breath. I'm going to catch my breath and then when we come back. It is full spoiler time for The Last Guardian. 

01:23:00.24
Dave
Ok, we're back in. It's full spoiler time for The Last Guardian and we're not going to go in chronological order through story stuff what we're going to do in this spoiler section is. We're going to talk backstory. And a lot of that is revealed at about the midpoint or maybe 2 thirds of the way through the game and then after that we're going to do a kind of talk and loose walkthrough of how the relationship between Trico and the boy evolves some key moments that help out.

01:23:36.71
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:23:37.41
Dave
In that progression. So starting out with what is this place that takes place in this impossible Fortress. You see it later on only much later on because you have a little bit of an intro. In the boys village and then it's a you know screen goes to Black. You get that credit sequence and then um, you're inside the fortress so you don't really see for a while how it is this place inside of what looks like a crater but it it's.

01:24:12.63
Dave
Like these cliffs raised up out of the ground and it has this big tower in the middle of it. So what the hell is this place? That's what we're trying to figure out here. You.

01:24:23.85
Chris
It's interesting that the world keeps expanding throughout the first few hours but you never actually feel any closer to your goal each time the world expands. It expands in such a way that your task feels more daunting, not less.

01:24:29.45
Dave
Yeah.

01:24:38.93
Chris
Which is a real challenge of world design I think.

01:24:41.77
Dave
Yeah, for a while you don't really even know what your goal is. Your goal is just to keep moving forward and like you have the idea that I'm not supposed to be here. So let's try to find a way out, but who knows how to do that and then eventually yeah.

01:24:44.74
Chris
No yeah.

01:24:56.70
Chris
Um, very dreamlike in that way.

01:25:01.14
Dave
And then eventually you know Trico starts looking up. Um there's this tower that Trico is very angry about so you kind of get the idea. Okay, we have to go to that tower and then when you do finally get that. Aerial shots of the entire place and you realize the only way in or out is to fly. Trico can't fly so we're gonna have to figure that out too. So little information here for people who didn't play or people who need a refresher. It's called the nest.

01:25:36.10
Dave
Again, The only way in or out is by air and for most unfortunate souls involved in that that means by Tricos and because there are many many Tricos in the world at the center of this place is a giant tower where a signal is being sent out.

01:25:44.67
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:25:55.51
Dave
Signal works to mind control Tricos. So you start out with one your Trico and then a little bit later in the game you see that there's another Trico and then very late in the game you see. There's not a couple. There are dozens of these Tricos out there.

01:26:13.33
Chris
Um, yeah, a full fleet? yeah.

01:26:14.35
Dave
And they're all being mind controlled.

01:26:20.76
Dave
The thing that's helping them be mind controlled is they're wearing these big great stone masks and the reason that yours is immune to this is that your Trico's mask got broken in a backstory cutscene that we're going to talk about here shortly.

01:26:37.32
Dave
What's actually happening here in the story is that this mind control signal is telling Tricos to go out and kidnap people and bring them back to this place which is why the Tricos have this reputation as man eaters because they come in. They grab people and eat them. They fly back to this place. They regurgitate them into these statues and that is where the information stops for me that is where I started theorizing. Okay, they're bringing back These people.

01:27:14.47
Dave
Why to what end so I don't know if you have any like insight into that. Okay.

01:27:19.73
Chris
Just a little bit um in the same scene where the um like the Tricos. Ah you see that that kind of fleet of Tricos come across the horizon and land at the top of this tower and do the regurgitation which I have to stress is into a statue of a baby bird.

01:27:35.14
Dave
Um, yes, right right.

01:27:37.34
Chris
Which I think is amazing. Um, you know they're feeding that baby bird just like a Mama bird would um, the baby bird shoots out a well I don't know if it's the baby bird or the um the master which we'll get around to here in a minute.

01:27:55.32
Chris
Um, but it shoots out a barrel filled with light after that goop of light has been put into it. So my conclusion was that the villagers are transformed into whatever is in those barrels the light that you've been feeding Trico the whole time.

01:28:14.78
Chris
Kind of grim but it felt like a 1 to 1 correspondence when it happens in the game.

01:28:19.94
Dave
That would also make sense for why those barrels of what I was like that's radioactive waste in there that would explain why those are nourishing to Trico if there's you know if it's organic material or something like that.

01:28:26.47
Chris
It really looks like it. Yeah.

01:28:38.43
Dave
Um, so that seems like a perfect cycle but the other part of this is the thing that's sending out that mind control signal is this core down at the base of that tower and it's you know some kind of self.

01:28:49.50
Chris
Um, yep.

01:28:56.40
Dave
Sustaining AI core or something like that, like yeah, so like the feeling that I got is that this place the nest was constructed a long time ago for some purpose and then whoever built it is gone.

01:28:58.80
Chris
It's like a sphere inside a cage.

01:29:14.26
Dave
But it's still going like that cycle is still going on so I don't know why they are kidnapping these villagers. What was the original purpose of this?

01:29:14.59
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:29:29.52
Dave
Or maybe the original purpose was something different than feeding the barrels to Trico or something. Maybe it just became this self-sustaining loop now that the Tricos can eat the barrels or something like that.

01:29:42.12
Chris
Yeah, that feels very uada-esque um that reminds me a lot of the world in shadow of the colossus where you're dropped off into this world by people who live outside of it. And the scale of it. The architecture of it, even the residents of it. The colossae are felt, crafted to a purpose that no longer exists. This is some kind of ancient thing that your people are peripherally aware of. Reminds me of the idea of you know, like a tribe in Europe happening upon um, like Roman Ruins in the 600s or something you know there. There was this vast infrastructure that existed for the current residents.

01:30:20.78
Dave
Right? right.

01:30:30.38
Chris
Don't have the written history to understand so that's what I get out of this facility as well. It's just been. It's vast. Maybe you know a vast institution that has proceeded on long past whatever purpose it had.

01:30:33.21
Dave
Um, right? so.

01:30:42.41
Dave
Right? And then imagine that those ruins are like explorers. Uncover ruins in the Amazon Rainforest or something like that. But also. There is a you know a sentient Ai inside of it That's sustaining this like cycle of life and stuff like that. So I don't know if this might be unknowable. This might be unanswered I'm not sure and I'm cool with it being unknowable and unanswered I think that.

01:31:00.15
Chris
Yeah.

01:31:14.96
Dave
Simple fact that number one this is not important for the like the true story in my opinion of the game This is backstory and this is something that you have to overcome at some point. 

01:31:30.38
Dave
The reason why it's here is not going to make or break the experience with the game unless like you said earlier unless you're the type of person that absolutely needs to get those answers in order to appreciate the experience that you had but I'm personally satisfied with just the idea that.

01:31:39.20
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:31:49.56
Dave
This place was constructed with a purpose and then whoever built it died out. There's not a single living all the you know soldiers that you mentioned earlier they are empty armor shells that are animated by this energy.

01:31:54.55
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:32:08.00
Dave
So it seems like it's just someone built a perfect self-sustaining machine and then they died and then the machine persists forever on.

01:32:16.85
Chris
Um, yeah, yeah I I think that's about all there is to it.

01:32:22.78
Dave
So yet maybe it would be a bit more satisfying if I knew why they built the machine but I also didn't do a lot of research about that. Maybe there is an answer out there. Um.

01:32:30.68
Chris
A lot of this game carries kind of the the language and weight of myth and to that end I think underexplaining is more valuable than overexplaining.

01:32:37.90
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:32:41.95
Dave
Right? I agree. Yeah, sometimes the answer that you get would be worse and less satisfying than not knowing. So um, so we have the Tricos that are bringing the people to the nest and then.

01:32:57.55
Dave
We find out in a cutscene about halfway or two thirds of the way through that this is how the boy arrived and it was no other than your Trico that flew to the boys village during the night while he was sleeping and sneaks up again like that that cat like aspect to the Tricos.

01:33:14.82
Chris
And he's so quiet.

01:33:16.63
Dave
It's impossibly big but can stealthily move up to a second story window, reach in through the window, swallow the boy and I think it only wakes up 1 other person in the dormitory because it accidentally knocks something over.

01:33:34.40
Chris
Yeah, and as far as I could tell it was because a caretaker lady comes into the room and sees it startles it and that's when it knocks the thing over so it would have managed to do this silently if she hadn't stumbled upon it at the time.

01:33:35.70
Dave
Something like that. Oh right? right? That's it right? right? right? So I. Trico goes in and grabs the boy he swallows the boy which he does several times throughout this game. Um, yeah, but yeah.

01:33:58.26
Chris
It never gets less silly. I have to say him swallowing The boy is perpetually a little funny to me not in a bad way that ruins the emotional half but it is pretty funny. Just.

01:34:10.10
Dave
But just this is the best way to transport these people for long distances is we're just going to eat you and throw you up later. So ah, right? Yeah so.

01:34:17.57
Chris
All Tricos have a little protective sack inside their beak. We just never see it.

01:34:26.67
Dave
Ah, the key thing about this cut scene right? Before Trico eats the boy they have some kind of psychic connection where Trico's eyes are purple. That's the telltale sign of mind control happening. The boy's eyes also turn purple. I was never clear on what this means unless.

01:34:32.42
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:34:46.00
Dave
The boy is special in some way.

01:34:49.71
Chris
Yeah, that let him be among the chosen ones. Um, maybe yeah, it's unclear, but maybe that his glowing eyes was an early indication that he may be among the chosen ones again. Whatever that means I guess the people who survive.

01:34:51.26
Dave
Yeah, whatever that means.

01:35:00.67
Dave
Right? I thought that this has been going on for a long time. So obviously myth and legend in this land would have that sometimes Tricos come and they take people and.

01:35:09.60
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:35:20.15
Dave
They are probably unclear on what happens after that whether they're just eaten or used for some other purpose which ends up being the truth. The people in the village probably don't know because no one can go to the nest. So you are right? right.

01:35:30.56
Chris
Yeah, it's plainly hundreds of miles away. We see Trico fly basically from nighttime until almost dawn. It looks like yeah they couldn't get in.

01:35:38.31
Dave
Right? But even if their village was right next to the nest, no one could go in there. So No one can see what happens so they could invent a myth about it. Basically so if a Trico comes and takes the child then the child is one of the chosen. In that way. That's what I took from this.. There could be more you know the chosen as in they're going to survive this. They're going to break the cycle or something like that who knows again, it's ah, right.

01:36:06.90
Chris
It did seem that the villagers didn't want the kids to be taken. It wasn't like a sacrificial scenario because they do come out with spears against Trico.

01:36:15.76
Dave
Right? They do? Yeah yeah, they do try to fight the Trico off but they're unsuccessful this time the Trico grabs the boy flies away is flying through a storm and it's a. 1 of the few like I called earlier the expensive cut scenes and it's really striking this one where it's flying through the storm um lightning strikes down hits the Trico and breaks the armor which would break the mind control thing. The Trico falls down to the ground and this.

01:36:34.46
Chris
Yes, yeah.

01:36:52.50
Dave
The soldiers, the automatons they come. You had written a question in the notes that we can assume they're controlled by the core and I think I agree that they are um yeah so they come they grab the Trico they drag it back to this room. They chain it up.

01:36:59.95
Chris
Yeah, it's a good assumption.

01:37:11.27
Dave
Probably to keep it there until they can get a new mask on it and stuff like that. You know, start that control again. But before they're able to do that It regurgitates the boy This is where those strange markings on his skin come from and then that.

01:37:27.38
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:37:30.92
Dave
Perfect it seamlessly goes into where the game first started but you know so it's a really good backstory cutscene that shows you everything that happened right up until the point where you regained control at the beginning of the game.

01:39:21.26
Dave
One thing I like about when they show you this backstory cutscene about how the boy got to the place is when they decide to show it to you. You have been through a lot with Trico by the time they show you this and they show you this at a point where something bad has happened to the boy. And it's like the second time that's happened but you've been through a lot with Trico if you've made it to this point in the game. You probably love Trico so then they show you number 1 another thing about how dangerous Trico's.

01:39:59.47
Dave
It can be a kind of I think foreshadowing meeting other ones a little bit later and then also that's your buddy and that's why you're in this in the first place is because your buddy kidnapped you and brought you here. Although

01:40:04.13
Chris
Right.

01:40:18.70
Dave
You obviously know that it's being mind controlled so you feel bad in that way too.

01:40:24.63
Chris
Yeah, it's ah it's a useful expository device. It didn't shake my confidence in Trico. I don't know if it was intended to but I didn't bear Trico any Ill will from this. I think it does really effectively set up that kind of.

01:40:28.73
Dave
Right. Yeah, yeah.

01:40:39.38
Chris
Whatever is mind controlling these creatures as the ultimate villain of this piece.

01:40:41.77
Dave
Yeah, hundred percent yeah because you know from your you know 6-8 hours ish when you get this cut scene. You know from all that time that Tricos are not by nature these bloodthirsty dangerous creatures because.

01:40:57.82
Chris
Exactly.

01:41:00.72
Dave
Yours is on your side. You're working together. So yeah, you're right it does show you what the ultimate antagonist of this game is so let's ah, let's kind of walk through that journey and that relationship between the boy and Trico um.

01:41:04.23
Chris
Yeah.

01:41:19.89
Dave
First thing early on that I noticed that I thought was really effective is early. You get an item. It's a magical mirror shield that can reflect light and whatever you reflect the light on Trico uses magic powers and shoots lightning at it and break it or whatever, whatever it needs.

01:41:35.90
Chris
Out of his tail critically for a later event. Yeah.

01:41:39.20
Dave
Out of its tail right? Yes, for later? Yeah, um, but I got the distinct sense that doing this hurt Trico somehow so I was never like Willy Nily about using it.

01:41:51.85
Chris
Do you think it may be because he was struck by lightning as an inciting incident to the game and so seeing lightning worries him.

01:42:01.84
Dave
It could be Um, yeah it didn't seem like a pain vocalization now that I think about it but a scared yeah scared vocalization.

01:42:07.29
Chris
Yeah, like fear. Interestingly we never see any of the other Tricos do this I don't think.

01:42:19.70
Dave
That's true I Yeah you're right I don't because they don't use it because there's the big Trico fight later. There's a couple of them and we don't see this for sure.

01:42:23.34
Chris
Yeah, yeah, it's neither here nor there you know it's one of those kind of like lore speculations. It makes me wonder if him being struck by lightning was part of it or that the masks in some way inhibit their ability to do this.

01:42:38.22
Dave
Yeah, or right or that they all can do this but you need this shield to or this reflective light or so because the shield is you get it out of like a tomb I think right.

01:42:40.19
Chris
But all of that's pure speculation.

01:42:51.83
Chris
Yeah, and he never does it when you aren't pointing the shield at something.

01:42:58.10
Dave
So just ah, just a nice interesting touch and then they take that shield away from you for most of the game and it doesn't come back until the very end.

01:43:01.61
Chris
Yeah, wild swing to tutorialize something that they take away from you for 80% of the game.

01:43:11.50
Dave
Right? Um, the reason it gets taken away from you is the first of 2 times in the game where you come across these cages and they just look.

01:43:24.31
Dave
Sinister This sinister technology here in these cages um up until this point you've basically been able to get Tricode to go wherever you want? Maybe it's a little bit of a struggle to get him to listen but you get it done and then when you come to this cage you have to jump down into it.

01:43:24.68
Chris
Um, you know.

01:43:42.61
Dave
And you can see immediately like Trico's freaked out by this place so it makes me think that they're doing something sinister to Tricos in here and this one remembers what's going on here. Um, yeah, so you.

01:43:44.96
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:43:51.56
Chris
Yeah, you get a real bad vibe from this room.

01:44:01.56
Dave
Convince Trico to jump down it immediately like I guess they don't need a mask. Maybe it's so strong like the signal inside this cage is so strong that well it doesn't mind controlled Trico. He just freaks out and goes into this berserk state and he eats the boy again.

01:44:08.64
Chris
Um, you know.

01:44:15.18
Chris
Exactly.

01:44:21.33
Dave
And the mirror shield is gone. Um, yeah, right? Yeah I didn't solve the puzzle right? But no, this is supposed to happen. Um, so.

01:44:23.10
Chris
Um, this is the first time you get eaten so when this happened I thought chucks I guess that's game over but it continues. Yeah.

01:44:39.30
Dave
This shows you that ah Trico is susceptible. We'll say stuff in the environment because right after this.

01:44:53.45
Dave
You get your encounter with the first guardians and Trico wakes up from this whole ordeal with the statue guardians and fights them off so you see how Trico reacts to them. But it's just really interesting adding this mystery to the world like what is this place. Why does it affect Trico like that?

01:45:13.25
Dave
Why did he freak out? He ate me. Why did the boy wake up from being eaten? Um I think maybe I'm getting this mixed up with eco this is the in this game when you get eaten. When you get picked up yet is this game when you get picked up by one of the statues the soldiers you have to like mash the buttons to right? But it's really heavy when Trico eats you and you have to like to do that to wake yourself back up. So.

01:45:35.40
Chris
Exactly Yeah, all of this distortion appears on screen like runic distortion. Yes, right? Yeah, and weirdly I guess this is kind of a mystery that we get an answer to that it is that.

01:45:52.87
Chris
Master exerting its control over the Tricos.

01:45:55.41
Dave
Right? But I don't know if it's too concentrated here because or I don't know maybe that's what they wanted. Maybe they wanted because everything in this place after this point is out to get you the boy. So maybe it was telling Trico just hey freak out eat this kid.

01:46:07.98
Chris
Um, right? Yeah, it's hard to say for sure it is funny when you find the second one too that it's a functionally identical room.

01:46:21.19
Dave
Yeah, they got different mind control stations around the fortress. Yeah, so right? Um, so that's just a little wrinkle in your early journey with Trico is everything was going smoothly until he literally eats you.

01:46:24.10
Chris
Yeah, yeah, no quadrant without a mind control station.

01:46:38.55
Dave
Because of this place a bit later you go outside. There's a cute scene where Trico takes a bath in a pool of water, which is wonderful like animation that they never use again in the whole game but suddenly he gets freaked out and you can see a way up high. There's another Trico that's.

01:46:49.65
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:46:58.54
Dave
The first sign and they both very clearly are not fond of each other like Trico roars up at the one above the one above is roaring back down. It's a little peek into the dynamics between Tricos here.

01:47:17.71
Dave
I Don't know if they're territorial. I think they are territorial. But yeah, this is n't like a species that works well in teams or groups.

01:47:26.46
Chris
No, and this really spooked me because we have come far enough at this point to see what our friend Trico is capable of when it doesn't like something you know it. It destroyed those statue guardians and briefly ate us.

01:47:34.00
Dave
Yeah.

01:47:41.45
Dave
Um, yeah, yeah, um, and you do come more face to face with that one a little bit later you.

01:47:41.97
Chris
So knowing that there's another one out there is a pretty big threat.

01:47:50.31
Chris
Right.

01:47:54.78
Dave
We kind of Yada Yada Yada through like a couple hours of game where you're just climbing Tower to Tower Bridge to bridge stuff breaks Trico Jumps etc. All the while you're building up this camaraderie with Trico. They also introduce stained glass things.

01:48:12.61
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:48:14.54
Dave
Again, they never explain why but the Tricos are terrified of them so they're set up in ways in places where they don't want Tricos to go. They set up these stained glass eyes and.

01:48:29.16
Chris
Yeah, clearly crafted by hands that are no longer in the picture like ah Tricos could not have crafted these the master couldn't have crafted them. We never see anything of the statue guardians that suggests you know they have kind of careful dexterity.

01:48:32.47
Dave
Um, yeah, yeah.

01:48:42.47
Dave
Yeah, or yeah, yeah, hundred percent so they're kind of set up tactically around and a lot of the puzzles later in the game are trying to get rid of these things so that your Trico will then calm down and move past where they were.

01:48:44.50
Chris
These are probably something from the ancient past.

01:48:57.61
Chris
Um, yep.

01:49:00.96
Dave
there was a section right before you get to the opposing Trico I guess we'll say where there's a point where Trico jumps on this pillar and everything crumbles around him and you have to like lower a drawbridge down.

01:49:20.15
Chris
Ah.

01:49:36.58
Dave
And a bunch of these guardians come out and they're all throwing spears at Trico where he's yeah, he's trapped on that he can't he has nowhere to go so he just has to sit and take all these spears and you're hurrying to solve this puzzle to lower this drawbridge down.

01:49:41.14
Chris
Um, yeah, it's awful.

01:49:53.21
Dave
Really? ah, really feel bad for your buddy when that's happening.

01:49:57.18
Chris
Yeah, yeah, that was really harrowing. Um it really puts whether the time limit is real in kind of in game Fail State terms it really puts kind of a time limit in your mind for getting that drawbridge lowered.

01:50:09.76
Dave
Yeah, so eventually you do and there are other sections where you have to I guess make quick work of a puzzle because Trico is getting attacked or holding off enemies while you're trying to do that. Um.

01:50:24.23
Dave
You meet the other Trico. There's a fight your Trico loses. Ah you fall back down Trico gets hurt. Um, we're in the spoiler section now. So Trico doesn't die in the game but Trico does get hurt often and it always feels bad when that happens.

01:50:36.36
Chris
Yeah I was wondering because this is the kind of thing that's like a maker break for potential players and frankly when I got this back in 18 I looked up beforehand to make sure that Trico survived.

01:50:43.80
Dave
Yeah.

01:50:53.15
Chris
Because I'm just one of those people you know and and so Trico's survival is kind of a contingent factor for me playing or maybe somebody playing but it is very heavy spoiler territory.

01:51:04.13
Dave
Right? Yeah and I had always heard that this game is very sad and everyone says that like oh I was a wreck when I finished this so I was like okay Trico's probably going to die. But

01:51:15.29
Chris
Yeah.

01:51:18.15
Dave
Ah, he doesn't but he does get hurt often so these fights with other Tricos like your Trico is younger and less capable than some of the others I think younger because of the lack of flying capability or maybe that's just injuries.

01:51:35.97
Chris
Um, yeah, it's hard to say because he does fly in the flashback.

01:51:36.76
Dave
Um, yeah, that's right, yeah, ah but your Trico is not really a match whenever there's a fight between Tricos. So yeah, yeah, and it always feels bad and sometimes you can do something about it.

01:51:45.38
Chris
Right? Yeah Trico takes a lot of punishment over the course of this game.

01:51:56.63
Dave
And a lot of times you can't and it's just just a part of it. Um, speaking of punishment right? After this, you get to another one of those mind control cages and Trico eats you again and this is where you get that big flashback cutscene then when you wake up.

01:51:56.83
Chris
Um, and then right.

01:52:08.65
Chris
Yep.

01:52:14.88
Dave
This time. The first time you woke up and Trico was still kind of asleep this time. The boy is not waking up in Trico's turn to help him out. So I thought this was number one really affecting because for a while the boy is just.

01:52:33.25
Dave
Laying there. He looks like he's dead and like Tricos like nudging him with his paw or with his nose and like pawing at him and stuff. Yeah, and yeah, the noises you can tell he's very distressed by what's going on. Um, really sad and it shows you that like you.

01:52:36.16
Chris
Um, yeah, Trico's crying too I think yeah.

01:52:52.17
Dave
And therefore the boy cares about Trico's well-being. But now you see Trico really actually does care about your well-being and not just because like before this Trico attacks the stuff but he's like I don't know by nature attacks those statue soldiers.

01:52:55.57
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:53:09.21
Chris
Yeah, and you feel like you may be collaborating just because you each have the same purpose which is to get out of the space right.

01:53:11.97
Dave
Um.

01:53:14.58
Dave
Yeah, right if Trico's even intelligent enough to realize that right? but you're right like in this scene here. You can tell Trico does actually care about you and is really really distressed when it looks like you're dead.

01:53:32.62
Chris
Um, yep.

01:53:34.80
Dave
Um, so what's Trico's solution to waking the boy up? He puts him face down in a pool of water so it works. Yeah, so yeah, ah the ends justify the means I guess um.

01:53:44.90
Chris
Ah, ah it works for you. You can't argue with the results.

01:53:53.76
Dave
But that was a really nice touching scene here and from this point on you know that you're not only do you have the same goal but both characters care about each other. So um.

01:53:59.60
Chris
Ah.

01:54:04.98
Chris
Um, right.

01:54:10.50
Dave
There's a scene after this where you are getting close to the tower where Trico flies for the first time and it's a nice, a nice moment. He's not in control of his flight but he does fly and kind of crashes into the side of a tower but he does fly.

01:54:27.35
Chris
Yeah, it feels so good for a second like you just kind of hold your breath like oh my goodness he actually can fly. It's very nice.

01:54:27.39
Dave
Which is progress.

01:54:36.24
Dave
Yeah, after this there is ah there's a section where the boy gets stuck in the layer of another Tricoo and then your Trico busts in to help and then there's another section where treat your side your Trico fights another Trico and loses.

01:54:54.11
Dave
Badly, um and is very badly hurt and I thought this was a nice touching moment because as we said in the non-spoiler Part Trico is a shy eater and will not eat if you're nearby but in this scene, He's very badly hurt. You find some of those barrels and he eats them out of your hand.

01:55:11.89
Dave
Was really sweet.

01:55:13.90
Chris
Yeah I Really like that scene . It was a nice improvement as well on the immediately preceding portion where you have to roll around in a cage as the boy and boy Howdy does that not work that is that is.

01:55:24.46
Dave
Um, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that was one of my least favorite parts. Yeah yeah.

01:55:28.79
Chris
Maybe my least favorite. Yeah, so it's nice that this came along to redeem that section. It also serves as something of a nontraditional boss battle, almost this combat encounter that the 2 Tricos are having um because we end up needing to um.

01:55:46.58
Chris
Interact with the environment and solve some puzzles exactly? Yeah yeah in the end I think we slam the enemy Trico's tail in a gate first ah to to give our Trico a little bit of space and then end up dropping a big structure on. Ah.

01:55:46.96
Dave
Um, you like yeah you like pushing stuff from above right.

01:55:58.70
Dave
Yeah.

01:56:05.99
Chris
The enemy Trico's head which dislodges its mask and from that point it's not aggressive anymore.

01:56:09.31
Dave
Right? Yeah, so again I think that everyone knew this by this point but the masks and whoever's making the masks. That's the real evil here. Not the other Tricos. Um, yeah, but you have to nurse your Trico back to Health and.

01:56:22.40
Chris
Um, exactly.

01:56:27.65
Dave
Kind of similar to that earlier one where they thought the boy was dead another like very touching scene where you see the growing trust between Trico and the boy where Trico finally eats out of your hand and then he throws up the shield.

01:56:44.44
Dave
And you can get the shield Again, you have it for the rest of not for the rest of the game but for another section where you need it for puzzles and stuff very ah animal like I don't know just think about like.

01:56:51.70
Chris
 yeah.

01:57:01.78
Dave
I Don't know you might be having a nice time hanging out with your dog and then just fucking throws up for no reason. Yeah, yeah, could be a shield. Yeah, he's had it the whole time I think you're onto something I think Tricos do have some kind of storage pouch down there. Yeah.

01:57:06.35
Chris
Yep yep, that's dogs. Yeah, you never know it's going to be in there either? yeah. Yeah, the bonus gullet.

01:57:21.21
Dave
Um, okay so back to the story you make it to the tower. Um, there's ah, there's ah a puzzle sequence inside the tower that I don't really like I did not. There's a sequence where you have to get these masks and put them on these statues.

01:57:40.52
Dave
Um, and charge up the power. You have to like to raise an elevator up and yeah.

01:57:45.40
Chris
It's very long and relate to the game. At this point I don't know if if this was cut I think it would have improved things. Yeah.

01:57:53.12
Dave
Would have been fine. Yeah, um, 1 cool part about that is you are down below where Trico is because he can't fit and you have to climb down his tail.

01:58:03.21
Chris
Right.

01:58:07.30
Dave
To get down into that section. There's a bunch of the enemy soldiers down there and you can deal with them by using the shield to get Trico to shoot lightning at the statues which makes it a lot easier but it was not fun until I figured that out Anyway, yeah, um so you get back to the tower.

01:58:25.67
Dave
Trico actually flies like for real this time flies you get to the top of the tower. It feels like you won Basically um and there's an amazing sunset happening and the boy and Trico kind of like go out to the edge. They.

01:58:35.36
Chris
Um, yeah.

01:58:44.71
Dave
They feel like they just kind of sit and take in the view together for a second and then the mind control beacon rings out and a bunch of other Trico arrive. So you're not, you didn't win quite yet. They arrive.

01:59:03.30
Dave
They've all got people in their pouches. Their gullets they throw them up into the statues and then they come out. They sniff at your Trico. So just good like animal behavior animation like who's this, who's this outsider here. Who's this what we got here to smell him.

01:59:04.65
Chris
Right? right? right.

01:59:16.74
Chris
Um, yeah, feels very real. Yeah.

01:59:22.22
Dave
Yeah, um, and then they turn their attention to the boy which has been the mission of every thing That's not your Trico in this place is the boy So Trico defends you but it's like there's like a lot of. Enemy Trico here like it feels like it's an unwinnable fight but he's taken on the challenge for you Anyway, Yeah,, but it's it's brutal and yeah, they they ah they whip his ass like it's not a close fight like he gets overpowered very quickly.

01:59:44.33
Chris
Um, yeah, it's like 14 on 1

01:59:56.46
Dave
They're all biting at him like really savagely. One of them rips his tail off like I think this is the scene where people who said that this game was really sad or disturbing in that way might be referencing this scene because he's getting brutalized in this.

02:00:10.78
Chris
Um, yeah, his tail getting ripped off is pretty rough.

02:00:16.14
Dave
Yeah, um, they throw his tail down into the center of the tower and down at the bottom of it is where that core the master as you've been calling it is that is that like a thing from a wiki or.

02:00:31.50
Chris
No I think they refer to that in the game. Um, it's the narration voiceover when you first encounter it. I think the boy's narration says like it's the master of this place. So more of a title than a name you know.

02:00:33.30
Dave
In the game. Okay I just didn't write it down. So.

02:00:42.79
Dave
Okay, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, that's that sounds right? It's literally just that I didn't write it down. So um, so while Trico is getting just torn apart.

02:00:50.50
Chris
Ah, yep.

02:00:59.53
Dave
By these enemy Tricos you have to figure out what to do next and it took me a minute but what you have to do is you realize that Trico's tail even though it's severed can still shoot lightning so you have to throw it down to the bottom of the tower.

02:01:12.24
Chris
Ah.

02:01:17.18
Dave
Go down and have it shoot lightning at the master at the core and destroy it. Yeah.

02:01:20.80
Chris
I Thought that was a really creative solution, as tough as it is at the moment to figure it out . I think it's a pretty elegant solution to the puzzle.

02:01:30.37
Dave
Yeah, um, and again it's another one of those sections where I felt like an extra source of panic in that situation because you can always see on like 1 side of the scene. All of these Trico just tearing your buddy apart. So you're like fuck I got to figure out how to do this like quickly. Yeah, and I don't think you can lose like I think if you just sat there. It would just play out indefinitely.

02:01:49.99
Chris
Ah, right? Yeah, the pressure's on.

02:02:04.11
Dave
But you do feel that source of panic. So it's an effective part. We'll say but yeah Jesus yeah, so you ah you go down you destroy the tower the release of energy from destroying it badly injures the boy.

02:02:07.14
Chris
Yeah, you'd have to have a heart of stone to stand there and listen to your buddy get wrecked.

02:02:22.77
Dave
Um, and then ah your Trico as badly injured as it is he uses his last remaining strength to come over and grab the boy and I should also say that the release of this energy and the destruction of the master causes. All of the others.

02:02:42.62
Dave
Trico to drop out of the sky or just um, forget what happened to the ones that were actually fighting your Trico That's right? Yeah yeah.

02:02:51.77
Chris
You can see them they like back off of the rooftop and fall off the side of the tower. Yeah, right? exactly.

02:02:58.80
Dave
Yeah, like in an unnatural way like with no concern for where the edge of it is yeah so those interesting things like the masks still have this power over them even though the mind control source was over. They didn't just snap, they just stopped working.. Basically yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So what happens at the end here is really sweet.

02:03:18.20
Chris
No, no, it's like they just got a blue screen or something when the mind control turned off. You know if only the masks had fallen off of them. They may have survived.

02:03:37.24
Dave
I Thought um and really effective in a lot of ways. So your Trico, his last remaining strength, picks up the boy and flies with the boy in his mouth to the edge of the crater and, as I remember, barely makes it there, kind of scrambles up to the edge.

02:03:56.37
Dave
And you're like okay so what are they going to do now So Trico swallows the boy again and flies back to his village I Guess that shows you some level of intelligence for the Trico to even though they're being mind controlled flies back to the boy's village and like.

02:04:02.90
Chris
Yeah.

02:04:16.70
Dave
Crashes like a plane crash into the Village grounds. Basically it's used all of its remaining strength to fly and it doesn't have any energy left to land. Um, and so the villagers run out and understandably they attack them.

02:04:35.87
Dave
Um, or they're I don't remember if they attack or if they're just menacing the Trico.

02:04:37.72
Chris
Yeah, they at least surround it. I think they don't start to attack until a little bit later in the scene but they are poised to attack anyway.

02:04:43.96
Dave
Right? right? and then Trico spits the boy out and kind of with his nose pushes him toward the village chief so another intelligent gesture from Trico like.

02:05:01.58
Dave
To the best of his ability saying I come in peace please take care of the boy. Um, and then ah the villagers again understandably rush at Trico with Spears and the boy then uses the last of his strength to like.

02:05:03.87
Chris
Right.

02:05:20.82
Dave
Every week I give the call for Trico to leave and it's really sad because it's one of those things where he's like you know I think the boy would rather him stay and they just live and live together here. But they're going to kill you so you have to leave.

02:05:29.91
Chris
Oh yeah, of course they're buddies now. Yeah, yeah, yeah there, there's no that Society's familiarity with that species is one of danger.

02:05:43.26
Dave
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, what I've talked a lot about is what happens in this last section from the fight on top of the tower to the flight away from the tower to the landing and then the scene in the village. What did you think of all of this and.

02:05:53.84
Chris
Sure.

02:06:00.90
Dave
How this kind of wraps up here.

02:06:02.14
Chris
I really like this um games like this I think struggle with ah they're they're kind of final encounters games that are more puzzle oriented and um, mechanically I think this works really well to give you that that threat of all of the other Tricos. Um, have you completed a puzzle to solve this with the mirror rather than you know some kind of goofy combat challenge like maybe a lesser game would and then I think um I think the degree to which it shows Trico using the last. Measure of his strength and the boy using the last measure of his strength each to save the other is the most powerful way that this the emotional core of this story could have resolved.

02:06:43.32
Dave
Right.

02:06:50.53
Dave
Yeah, agreed to it at the point in their relationship at the end of the game. It seems like the only thing that each of them care about is each other so it's ah it's.

02:07:00.34
Chris
Again, a lesser story would have had maybe Trico killed by the villagers or die there or something like that or have had the boy die if they wanted to take a particularly tragic approach and neither of those would have been as emotionally fulfilling as the 2 of them.

02:07:07.20
Dave
Yeah.

02:07:19.92
Chris
Aiding each other in their survival.

02:07:21.30
Dave
Yeah, even though both of them put themselves at extreme risk of harm to to help the other out and again it it shows a level of intelligence on Trico's part

02:07:29.75
Chris
Um, you know.

02:07:36.47
Dave
To do this too, I think maybe you might not have been sure of earlier in the game that Trico actually has the capacity to to care about the boy like this but also to have ideas like I'm going to take him home. I remember where his home is.

02:07:39.41
Chris
Right.

02:07:51.10
Chris
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that due to the lack of communication is so core to this game and and and it's so core to uada's work in general and because you can't communicate directly with Trico the entire game you're learning about him. Even as we see him learning about the boy and coming to like the boy and so even until the last moment where the boy and Trico are together the boy and the player are learning about Trico Trico is more intelligent and empathetic than we knew.

02:08:21.55
Dave
Yeah, yeah, hundred percent and the last part of this scene is so the boy tells Trico to leave he uses you know he's had like 30 seconds to recover then he uses.

02:08:40.52
Dave
Really what feels like the last of his strength to fly away and it's left ambiguous as to if he's going to survive this and then the credits start rolling so you are really like is this how this game's going to end is this going to leave with this uncertain fate.

02:08:41.80
Chris
Right.

02:08:58.89
Dave
For Trico because the last thing you see before the credits role is him really struggling to fly and you're like he's not going to make it like he might get out of the village. But how's he going to find enough food and whatever to recover from this.

02:09:50.46
Chris
Yeah I was really worried that it was going to end here before the credits. But thankfully we do get. We could get a nice little post credit scene.

02:09:51.15
Dave
Trico.

02:09:56.49
Dave
Yeah, so after the credits it shows you the mirror that's buried in the dirt after a long time and this is the same as the main menu so it aids into the exact same setting that the main menu takes place on.

02:10:10.13
Chris
Um, yeah.

02:10:15.60
Dave
The boy is now grown up so you know he survived and some kids found the mirror and this is very similar to the scene that happens right? When you hit a new game at the beginning before it fades you get the opening credits and then the boy wakes up in the cave. So now.

02:10:27.66
Chris
Um.

02:10:33.70
Dave
Kids take the mirror out. They point it at the sky and then you get this this shot with the camera goes up in the sky soars through the clouds goes down into the crater flies through some caves and buildings and stuff and into the first room where the game started and you hear a sound.

02:10:52.21
Dave
And then you see a couple of green eyes light up in the darkness so you see that Trico is alive. I'm choosing to believe that that's our Trico and not only that I thought I heard a baby sound in there too. Yeah.

02:11:00.89
Chris
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, and then a second set of eyes light up down below amazing.

02:11:12.20
Dave
So nice. Ah, nice happy ending and I was very very happy to see that after how that pre-credits ending went so ambiguous and sometimes I like when stories like this leave it ambiguous.

02:11:20.24
Chris
Oh.

02:11:29.29
Dave
Or even leave it with an unhappy ending and then that's it and you're left. You're either left with that, you know, unhappy ending or you're left with that ambiguity and we'd be on the podcast being like. So do you think Trico survived does it matter if Trico survived stuff like that. But.

02:11:31.57
Chris
For sure. Yeah, they can.

02:11:46.90
Chris
Right.

02:11:48.77
Dave
They made the conscious decision to put in the scene that says yes Trico survived. Will the boy and Trico ever see each other again? I don't think so. But yeah, but they all had their happy ending um in their own way and I think what we know about.

02:11:56.79
Chris
Probably not.

02:12:08.49
Dave
Obviously the boy but what we know about Trico we can assume that Trico will still remember the boy if they ever do meet again or probably does have the capacity to just think about and remember him.

02:12:14.65
Chris
Um, and.

02:12:19.37
Chris
Yeah, and given the positive experience that both of them had with each other were these 2 species you know humans and the Trico to come together again. There may be a more positive interaction between them.

02:12:33.91
Dave
Yeah, and the mind control thing for the other Tricos is broken So assuming that they're not all dead which is a possibility I guess we'll this one if it has a baby probably found another one So you're probably not all dead.

02:12:50.87
Chris
Yes, and the Trico that had its mask um, shattered earlier by the boy. We do see it very momentarily when our Trico is flying away from the tower.

02:13:00.64
Dave
Okay.

02:13:02.81
Chris
We do see that other Trico without a mask standing peacefully on another tower in the nest. It's like a split second.

02:13:08.63
Dave
Okay, that's cool I miss that but that's good. Um, okay, cool. So yeah, so there is hope for the survival of Trico as a species and now that we know that it was the mind control and not necessarily their nature.

02:13:25.78
Dave
Causing them to be these man-eating. Um you know terrors hope that they could live in Harmony because you would assume that as the boy grew up. He would tell everybody in the village and the children that this is the truth about Tricos.

02:13:28.20
Chris
Right.

02:13:41.10
Chris
Yeah, and the narration that we're experiencing is presumably him telling somebody about it. So we know for a fact that he spread that story.

02:13:46.14
Dave
Yeah, yeah, on yeah yeah, that is the kind of narrative framing device is the boy as an old man telling the story. Yeah, so.

02:13:56.17
Chris
Yeah, pretty cool, a surprisingly happy ending for a game that feels like it could have swerved in the other direction.

02:14:03.40
Dave
Yeah, yeah, and like I said I expected it to go in the other direction based on the way people talk around the plot but just talk about how it left them feeling and I was you know it's bittersweet in a way that you know they'll probably never meet again.

02:14:14.44
Chris
Um, yeah, right.

02:14:22.98
Dave
But I mean you did have that emotionally devastating ending where the boy is like pleading for Trico to leave before the villagers kill it like that wasn't that that was pretty sad. Yeah, but you do get that happy ending at the end. Yeah, so.

02:14:32.22
Chris
Yeah I was really scared. Yeah yeah.

02:14:40.95
Dave
I just really like how the relationship evolved. They took turns doing nice things for each other helping each other out throughout the game then they really work well as a pair in like the last maybe 5 hours or so you can give more detailed commands to Trico.

02:15:00.84
Dave
Um, Trico feels like he responds better or at least knows what you want better. So it shows a better understanding between the 2 of them and then yeah, the selfless acts at the end showing how much they do actually love each other. It's a really great journey showing the relationship between them.

02:15:20.62
Dave
And as you know as a pet owner. It's um, it really tapped into that Love that you have for your pets. Yeah.

02:15:26.29
Chris
It does? Yeah yeah I think it gains a lot based on that you know, just kind of entering into it. But luckily it's not only that you know it It also earns its it's a very poetically harmonious work. You know it. It doesn't do a lot of that really heavy-handed foreshadowing but um, a lot of the stuff that you're doing towards the beginning is reflected at the end, the relationship grows steadily over time. Um, it's just ah, it really comes together really well.

02:15:47.49
Dave
Um, yeah.

02:15:59.52
Dave
Yes.

02:16:01.33
Chris
I'm very impressed by this as just this beautiful standalone work.

02:16:04.40
Dave
Yeah, and especially considering you know that they had issues in development and this game could have easily come out. You know, unfinished or a shell of what it was once supposed to be and I didn't get that feeling at all like they did accomplish the vision.

02:16:22.96
Dave
So yeah.

02:16:23.34
Chris
No, it's surprisingly polished and even the issues that I have with um, specifically how the boy controls they're pretty much the same issues that I had with how eco or shadow of the Colossus control. So yeah.

02:16:33.62
Dave
Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, it's kind of their thing.

02:16:38.37
Chris
If the game had come out in a svelte two years of development I have no doubt the controls would have been the same.

02:16:41.89
Dave
Yeah, yeah, probably yeah so anything else that you wanted to touch on before we finish this up.

02:16:51.33
Chris
No I don't think so um I'm really happy that tales from the backlog finally got me to play this game I've been meaning to forever and this was the kick in the pants that I needed.

02:16:56.88
Dave
Yeah, ah, good good I'm always happy when I can when I can help out that way and I'm always happy when I have a really productive and good conversation about it Once we're done. So thank you for coming on.

02:17:10.45
Chris
Oh yeah.

02:17:13.99
Dave
Thank you for? um yeah, taking part in this discussion. This is ah a game that I came out with a lot of like feelings about both about you know how it all works as ah as a game how it works as a a piece of art how this relationship between the characters work I'm really happy with how we discussed.

02:17:33.33
Chris
Oh yeah, for sure. Thank you so much for having me on the show too As a big fan of Tales from the Backlog it. It is a great honor to finally be on here and get to chat about The Last Guardian.

02:17:33.36
Dave
So thanks again.

02:17:43.60
Dave
Um, yeah, thank you? Thank you for that. It means a lot. So yeah for everybody listening. Thank you for sticking it out to the end. I hope you enjoyed the discussion again if you want to add your own two cents and let us know what you think you can come in the Tales from the Backlog discord server. And let us know what you think. Be happy to talk about the game throughout the week. I always love it when that happens so feel free to come in and join and yeah, check down in the show notes again for links to Franchise Festival. Go check that show out. It's worth your time and as always. Tune in next week for the next game to come out of the backlog.