02:08.47
Dave
Hello everybody. My name is Dave Jackson and you're listening to tales from the backlog. This is a video games review podcast where each week I'm joined by a guest to bring a game out of the backlog play it and discuss my guests today are friends of the show longtime friends of the show returning from many past episodes and they're both here today to accept the truth. First of all the host of pixel project radio rick firestone welcome back Rick and we're also joined today by the host of the unlockables podcast Eric Gess Eric welcome back

02:53.69
Rick
hey Dave it's good to be here.

02:59.80
Eric Gess
Thank you so much Dave and thank you for allowing me to use your podcast as my summer vacation home once again.

03:07.86
Dave
ah you make a mess of it every time Eric yep yep I got to write that in there somewhere a long time listeners of the show will recognize both of these voices from many past episodes like I said Rick was a guest on.

03:12.63
Eric Gess
There's no cleaning fee. So I don't his own incentive.

03:25.75
Dave
Diso Elysium Yakuza like a dragon 13 sentinels. Final fantasy 9 and Catherine full body I think those are all of them and Eric was on metro dread undertale and of course the one and only stranger of paradise final fantasy origin. So. I am super happy to have you guys back on the show today. Both of these both of you have really excellent shows pixel project radio and the unlockables on each show. There's been much final fantasy content. So it's good to have you here. We'll talk about both of those podcasts before the spoiler break. But today. We're going to talk about final fantasy 16 which is an action game developed and published by square enix for ps5 in 2023 if you haven't played final fantasy sixteen. Don't worry because we're not going to spoil the story for you before that spoiler break I mentioned. Can check down in the show notes for a timestamp for when that spoiler break happens until that point we're going to dance around story stuff including like very early but very impactful story stuff. So no worries if you haven't played. Let's give some elevator pitches for final fantasy sixteen if people haven't played. I wrote that this I took I think I took the easy elevator pitch again as the perks of being the host of the show I say it's game of thrones meets final fantasy meets devil may cry. What would you guys say.

04:51.90
Eric Gess
Rick let you go first.

04:54.22
Rick
Ah, smart, Let the let the fellow with nothing written down. Go first. It's a good strategy. Yeah yeah I was just following orders. Yeah, where have I heard that before. 

04:57.37
Eric Gess
Ah I was just following the order of the doc I'm sorry.

05:05.24
Rick
Um, you know this game represents another iteration of the final fantasy series trying to reinvent itself and take new avenues of risk whether or not that works for you is ultimately going to depend on what you come to the series for but ah, ah, just a super brief pitch about this game is. It's the game's first foray into trying to commit to be an action game and the game's first foray into a true m rated title. Ah other other than that I you know I think that gets into more of the meat of the story. So I will I will leave it at that I think okay.

05:40.50
Dave
All right and Eric.

05:42.15
Eric Gess
Yeah, just wrote really quick I said a newer and more direction a newer and more mature direction for the legendary game series that is loved by some hated by others and there's nothing more final fantasy than that and we're just a little bit outside of my wheelhouse because ah the one true lord and Savior Tetsuya Nomura was not. Included in this one at least not directly so but yeah, like like rick said it's kind of ah, a new kind of a fresh start for the series kind of trying some things that have never been done before and we'll see for better or worse whether or not those things worked or those things don't but like I said.

06:02.28
Dave
And.

06:19.24
Eric Gess
People are going to love or hate it regardless because that's what final fantasy is baby.

06:22.71
Dave
Yep, exactly? Um, at the time of recording this game is only available on ps 5 there's a pc port on the way and then who knows where it will end up in the future but we all played this on Ps 5 This took me 45 hours to complete and that is pretty much. Main pathing it for about at least the last half of the game I skipped almost every side quest in the last half so pretty long main story in this game. How long did it take you guys.

06:50.52
Eric Gess
I was about at the same time I was about I think twenty fifty hours because I have really bad Ocd and I wanted to get rid of all the quest marker icons just to just to see what they had to offer. So yeah, after about 50 hours I got through the main story and then I am in the middle of a playthrough on final fantasy mode which is the. Kind of hard mode new game plus version that they have in there. So I've gotten about halfway through that and maybe I can add a little bit ah of discourse when we get to talking about some of that stuff.

07:11.27
Dave
Boom.

07:20.68
Rick
You know my my play. My play clock is not reliable at all I've fallen into the habit of just going into the game pausing and then like walking away getting other stuff done. So my my play clock is at like 90 hours and that's not that's not right at all. I if I had to guess I would say probably 55 hours or so maybe 58 um I did go really hard on the side quests towards the end of the game. Um, mid end of the game. So I think 55 to 58 would be right.

07:51.34
Dave
Gotcha yeah so um, just kind of in conclusion, they're not a short game I mean even longer than a lot of other games in the final fantasy series. So buckle up for that if you're thinking about playing it. Um at the top of the show. We always start by giving our histories with the game and then of course. Got to give a little history with the final fantasy series. But like I said Rick and Eriica both been on the show before for final fantasy games. So we have talked about the series. So Rick I'll kick to you first a little kind of refresh on your history with final fantasy and then what was it that made you want to play 16.

08:27.87
Rick
Sure so final fantasy nine was the first game of the series that I ever played as a kid. It's largely. What got me into more of the story driven video game experience. Um all through high school and college. You know I was really big into 7 8 ight nine and 10 and tend to um and then got into the earlier entries later on what made me want to play this. Ah this is the first final fantasy game that ah released at a time when I was both playing video games and old enough to kind of purchase them myself. The the one before this final fantasy 15 released in 2016 I believe and at that time the only video games that were playing. You know I was replaying all of the games from my childhood and that's really it. Um, so I was really excited to buy this ah preordered it played the demo before it released picked it up on day one and here we are.

09:19.36
Dave
And Eric.

09:22.24
Eric Gess
Yeah, my history actually Mirrors Rick's pretty close I think that's why I became friends in the first place because I too experienced a series first through final fantasy nine that was the catalyst for a lot of my love of the series of of rpgs and. Really to this day still one of my favorite games of all time and since then I've gone back and played every single numbered title since 7 excluding the online ones I don't know for like counting those long mainline series but I haven't played the online ones but I've played every other numbered title 7 onward. Including some of the spinoffs type 0 crystal chronicles. We had a couple of those in there stranger paradise shout out the the best final fantasy game of course and I'm probably more famously known or infamously known for um, you know I've played kingdom hearts which is the other series from square unix and and been on a very very extensive.

10:12.97
Eric Gess
Journey to catalog that entire series on my show. So I Love Square Unix They're one of my favorite developers favorite publishers their games hold a very special place to my heart So You know I think if you're a fan of final fantasy at this point regardless of whether you loved or hated the last couple titles you see a main line. Final fantasy game come out and you're like yeah I got to check that Out. So. The hype around this game ah building up to release was was incredible and I think we all were just like yeah we're going to get this and play it and and we all kind of played it together in our little podcast community at the same time.

10:42.71
Dave
Yeah, um, this this game really made an impression especially when that demo dropped that the demo for for this game was probably one of the most impressive demos I've ever played. It was just perfectly paced. It introduced the combat. Left you on at 1 hell of a story cliff hanger so I was already like going to play 16 like kind of like Rick I I consider myself a fan of the series. But I've never been like on like the release I think the last one I bought at release was 13 and before that I had never bought one on release. So when that demo dropped and was the way it was and generated all that hype. It was like okay I was going to buy this but now I'm like I'm going to buy it on the way home from work on the day. It releases like that. Um I've said it before on the show. But i. Consider myself a fan of the final fantasy series despite only liking about half of the games that I've played in the series which is a lot of games to be fair I've played by my count maybe 12 or 13 of them now. So to say I only like 6 or 7 of them is still a lot of games that I like so um. It was kind of like a foregone conclusion almost that I was going to play this. It was just that demo that got me to buy it on day one and to get into some quick opening thoughts here before we dive into the game itself I think that this game did not.

12:11.40
Dave
Maintain the momentum that that demo set up in my opinion this to me stood out as like a shiny example of everything that aaa is and everything that people love about aaa games and everything that people hate about aaa games is in final fantasy sixteen the highs of this game were really really really high. Some of the coolest shit I've ever seen in a video game is in this game and some of the most boring sections of a video game that I've ever played are also in this game so I left with it like kind of disappointed but I don't think this game is like it's not terrible. Not a bad game or anything I just like. I don't know since I finished it I finished it a couple weeks ago at least and it's aged pretty poorly since then in my memory I don't think it's a game I'll ever go back in and replay. So that's kind of my quick opening spiel here Eric how about you.

13:05.17
Eric Gess
Yeah I agree with a lot of what you said and a lot of the criticism is warranted I think I probably have an unfairly positive view of everything square puts out just because of how much I love them and kind of blinded by nostalgia so I'll probably be a little more favorable on this game than you guys. So I'm appreciative that ah you guys this critical eye will kind of keep me in check here. But. I absolutely agree with you guys or with you dave the the highs that this game strives to achieve and does achieve are insane. It's some of the most intense sequences in games I think you'll ever come across. But you do crash down to devastatingly low lows to the point where like the game almost feels like it's standing still and while at the time I feel like I really appreciated that there's a chance to breathe after these incredible cinematic action sequences that we got not everybody is going to ah tolerate that and accept it the way that I did so I think in terms of just products that square enix has put out lately. Ah, they've had some misses with forspoken with Marvel's Avengers but in terms of like their pillars. Their their big 3 ah, we've had recent success with those titles in 7 remake kingdom hearts 3 and now final fantasy 16 being like complete games compared to the chopped up mess that 15 was or how flat 13 kind of felt so in terms of like their main products in terms of like a AAA package like it's ah it's a very well-made game and stands it stands pretty good up against what they put out recently. But yeah, this game is kind of all over the place and we're going to talk about that I'm sure.

14:36.50
Dave
Yep.

14:37.53
Rick
Um, yeah, that's well said I um I think I might be cooler on it than both of you but you know for for me this game. It's a perfectly fine video game I just don't think it's a good final fantasy game. Um, and this is going to come back to what I said at the beginning. Um it ultimately depends on what you're looking for in the series and in a game experience for me this this game is trying to do and be too many things and ultimately it it doesn't succeed wholly in in any of them. It writes so many checks that the game fundamentally cannot cash ah mechanically narratively and and etc. Um, this is going to really sound damning but it doesn't it's it. It reminds me a little bit of how I felt with Detroit become human.

15:31.20
Rick
Um, to be clear the writing in that game is far worse than 16 s like like I'm not I'm not making a direct comparison here. But once you look past the presentation and the spectacle with Detroit become human. It was the the really beautiful graphics and with 16 it's it's the absolute. Ah, buffet the cornucopia that is their visual presentation and the spectacle upon which the game lives and and dies once you look beyond that I think it's bereft of a lot of the things that make the series special and make jrpg special. Um. Well I actually I misspoke this game's not a jrpg I mean we can come out and say it. It. It just isn't um.

16:06.78
Dave
I Yeah I said it at the top of the show I said this is an action game I didn't yeah, didn't even try to say it was an rpg because it's It's not not not not combating you I just kind of just.

16:16.24
Rick
Settle down Slugger I wasn't accusing you.

16:20.36
Eric Gess
Ah, whoa Whoa. Ah.

16:25.39
Dave
Referencing the top of the show all right? all right? Let's go. But.

16:27.33
Rick
No, we could fight. It's fine. Ah, but yeah I just tying up my my sentiment in a bow. It's It's a fine video game I don't like it as a final fantasy game. That's that's all.

16:28.27
Eric Gess
Yeah I'll write for read after you guys want to go I mean that's fine. Um.

16:39.54
Dave
Um, yeah.

16:40.79
Eric Gess
And I think to just kind of add to Rick's point ah this game the hype building up around this game I think this game was burdened and saddle with a lot of expectations because it was supposed to be like this fresh start this new start for final fantasy right? after the. Kind of disaster that fifteen was and kind of like how the lukewarm reception of of 13 and I think there was even more expectations on it when it it was discovered that yoship was heading it up because of the great work. He did kind of saving final fantasy 14 so I think in terms of the like just on top of the regular hype that normal final fantasy titles have.

17:05.42
Dave
This is.

17:13.69
Eric Gess
This was seen by a lot of people as like oh this is going to like save and and reinvigorate the the franchise so it had a lot of those expectations on it going into it as well.

17:22.19
Dave
Yeah, yeah, and I kind of agree with Rick that this is not. It doesn't feel like a final fantasy game to me, but the the reason for that is not the reason for me personally is not the reason that everyone was yelling on social media about about how it's an it's an action game and. Final fantasy can't be an act that's bullshit. The reason that I say that this isn't a final fantasy game is. It's it's not an rpg and that's like integral to my like definition. My personal definition and expectation for a game titled final fantasy. If that makes sense.

17:59.40
Rick
And I think too when when we say it's not a final fantasy game I think it it in some ways that's misspeaking on my part as well because what I mean by that is there are thematic throughlines and presentation through lines throughout the first. I don't know at the very least 9 but maybe 10 maybe even 11 games that are are similar with each other right? they're they're they're compatible with with each other and 16 chose to break away from all of that. That being said, though, they've been experimenting since 11.

18:35.46
Dave
Yeah.

18:37.58
Rick
So It's not like this is New. So I Perhaps saying that it's not a final fantasy game. Perhaps that's I mean a platitude trite call. It. Whatever you want. But I I think our justifications are sound right? It doesn't fundamentally feel like a game that this ah studio has been putting out. Under the moniker final fantasy for years and years and years whether that's to your liking or not well who can say ah I'll tell you who can say we can say because we're doing the podcast.

19:05.99
Dave
That's true. Yeah.

19:06.16
Eric Gess
Ah, yeah I think 2 to kind of add to your points and we're not living in a world where like an action game can't be an rpg I think that ah you know I hate to bring everything back to team hearts. What I have to kingdom hearts is an action game that has a very robust rpg system especially the the third entry kind of being a culmination of. Everything they've worked on and I think and I'm sure this won't be the first time this comes up I think the marriage of the action in rpg systems in 7 remake is is really like the best version that square has put out of that recently so far and and they are. They're on this quest to have final fantasy. Be more action oriented and be more flashy. And I think 7 remake with the way you can switch characters and it kind of incorporates the atb bar into like the real-time action was incredible. The way they did that and when you stand 16 s system up next to that. It's just there's no comparison.

19:58.15
Dave
Yeah, one of the I mean Eric you and I on this very podcast talked about stranger of paradise with another game with final fantasy in the title that is an action rpg both of those things are extremely prevalent in that game as well. So.

20:11.10
Eric Gess
Has one of the best job systems ever.

20:14.95
Dave
Yeah, it's it's it's fantastic if anyone listening if you haven't listened to that episode. Go listen to it. Go play stranger of paradise so you can go into the spoiler section because Eric blacked out and gave a a big long speech that was incredible in that episode. So yeah, um, not to belabor this point here. But I do think this is.

20:34.62
Dave
You know part of the conversation surrounding this game and I I kind of like had a similar feeling that like this you know, not my final fantasy but not for the same reason that people were yelling on on Twitter about so. Let's ah, let's listen to a little bit of music when we come back, we're gonna dive into the story setup and the world building in this game. 


So in final fantasy sixteen. We have a brand new world as is you know per usual for the series and well I guess this is one of the things that. Would make it a final fantasy game reinventing setting characters systems. All of that it is set in the world of valisthea again new for this game built around the magic of crystals another through line throughout the series. Although in this game they are these giant they're mountains. Basically. Ah, called the mother crystals was like the basis of all the magic in the land and kingdoms have sprung up around these crystals. They are all basically vying for land and control. These are what grant the kingdoms their power basically any kingdom or duchy or whatever. You know medieval noun they assign to these places that doesn't have their own crystal is just not going to be a big power player in this land. Um I think that this world building setup is really really cool, especially when it was introduced like.

22:04.29
Dave
This is how this world works. This is how the politics are set up. This is what gives countries their power and it also kind of introduces the game of thrones or other types of fantasy where like you know the kingdoms that have these magical artifacts or something like that. Ah. That's what gives them their power and then they're and then they're jostling for control amongst each other you know as the the history of the world plays out I thought this was super Cool. It brought me in almost immediately. What did you guys think.



22:39.63
Rick
Um I I would have preferred it if they leaned harder into this throughout the entire game. It kind of gets abandoned I mean what about halfway 60% of the way through I was really invested I get really invested on a political.

22:44.95
Dave
Oh. Yeah.

22:57.13
Rick
Happenings in games affect the story directly and I was really excited for that up up throughout the whole beginning and then they they just kind of abandon it I mean there's no, there's no better word for it to do some jrpg stuff.

23:14.27
Dave
Yep oh I agree with you to be clear. Yeah I was in it at the beginning when they first introduced it I was like this is extremely cool I like this this setup this world building. It's very creative I enjoyed it a lot and then like you said fifty sixty percent of the way through you never hear about. Most of this stuff ever again.

23:32.33
Eric Gess
Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat as you guys I think the way they set up the world at the beginning and they have this. They have so much opportunity which where you're like the politics of this world the and and the maneuvering for the political power and the and the power to control these crystals makes for a very tantalizing story and and a lot of that lore is built into the game because you have the active time lore System. You're able to pause during cut scenes and see like what exactly is going on and it offers you a little bit of history about like what happened why this world is the way it is and yeah I was super drawn into that I was like yes if if this final fantasy is able to kind of toe the line between like their normal.

24:08.90
Eric Gess
Crazy final fantasy stuff and this like political world that would be super interesting because you know I know we have the comparison to to game of thrones and the the way that show ended was regrettable and and frankly awful the way they ended that show but the first.

24:24.00
Eric Gess
6 or so seasons of that show was was really really engrossing because of that exact reason the politics and the way the power structure of that world was was being created um and so yeah, the the game does take a turn about 50% of the way through to where it's like okay, cool all this world building and all this stuff was set up. But now you know. God's kind of here so we kind of have to like figure out how we're gonna kill god which I'm all 4 you guys know me I'm I'm a junkie for that stuff like anytime we were able to kill god like count me and I'm I'm totally for it. But yeah I did and I appreciate that I love that I want that my final fantasy story right? but.

24:47.72
Dave
Yep.

25:00.63
Eric Gess
Same thing with you guys when those those credits rolled I was like man I wish we could have spent a little more time with like the the inner workings and the machinations of this world around the power structures it kind of it tried to set up.

25:08.88
Dave
Yeah, want to give a little bit more detail about those power structures and kind of like more of that world building because I think that it's I mean just to give a little sense of like the things that they abandoned along the way to like like we said. Go after some jrpg bullshit. Um, so a couple other things about it. There is a blight that's spreading across the Land. We're not sure what causes it at the beginning. Um, but as the blight starts to make territory Uninhabitable. You know, fuck with Agriculture you know things that blights do. Um, the major powers start grabbing for more territory which causes conflict between them. Um, and the way that they you know fight each other is really interesting Too. They are in control of these super soldiers they're called Bearers and dominance.

26:07.33
Dave
Bearers are people who can use magic in this world and a really interesting setup to them is that because they can use Magic they are enslaved as soldiers most of the time lot most of the countries do this and I thought it was really interesting that in this World. Basically be more powerful. People are often kept as slave soldiers. Basically it's a cool world building idea and again it it forms a central like it. It's of great importance in the plot in the early game. And then again it's It's abandoned at some point just like the rest of this kind of low-level stuff is the other part of this is the dominance who are the people who command the power of the icons. Their traditional final fantasy summons. And they are incredibly powerful. They can transform into these icons. Um, one of the early scenes in the prologue shows a big fight between Titan and Shiva Titan is like a colossus on the battlefield and then Shiva is he played final Fantasy. You know you know using the ice magic and stuff. They're basically nuclear bombs. They're the the same effect but they are people and again sometimes they hold great power sometimes enslaved just like the bearers. Um I think this you know dynamic here is another cool part of the world building and the way that these countries operate.

27:39.50
Rick
Um, what I especially liked about that too. Um, and I don't think this is a spoiler. Ah but you know Dave if it is you could you could always cut this entirely is that the the positions of power that the some of the folks who are dominance find themselves in It's not. To worship the dominance themselves. It's to worship the icons essentially um and I think that's very cool that does play into the plot and you know I'm not going to say more for for spoiler sake. But I think that is is very cool as well.

27:58.38
Dave
Okay.

28:09.94
Eric Gess
And I was kind of grabbed too by the the world that this story set up because I don't know about you guys. But I just kind of immediately saw a lot of parallels to like the world that we're constantly living in right? bearers are ostracized because they're different and they have this ability to Wield magic And. Just kind of reminded me of like the struggles we're still fighting for for people that are marginalized groups in our own world. Ah you know fighting for fair treatment of them and then the same thing with the blight. How how the blight is spreading across the land and you know I was just thinking about. The the water crisis they're having out West or any of the stuff like that I was just thinking in terms of like our own world and that was really brought to the forefront while I was playing this game so not to like get political or or real world droopy on on your show but I just couldn't help but.

28:57.32
Eric Gess
Kind of realizing those parallels were. We're kind of frightenly similar to to some of the stuff we are going through today. Yeah.

29:00.68
Dave
Yeah, the blight is a real like global warming parallel. Yeah.

29:10.43
Rick
And not to mention the whole aspect of you know bearers and well no, not dominant just bearers ah essentially being slaves that was a that was a pretty big talking point when this game first dropped.

29:20.55
Dave
And I mean not not one that like I guess I'm privileged to say like not 1 that particularly bothered me I thought they're using it for a really interesting purpose in the story. It forms a a central. Like driving part of the plot. What's going on with the bearers how you're going to help them out and then again no real resolution to that. Unfortunately.

29:50.20
Eric Gess
It is kind of a unique twist on final fantasy though because normally I might shoot myself in the foot here saying this like normally people with like magic or stuff are not usually ostracized like that in the final fantasy world and this is like really the first time where we see them or it's like they are. Heavily downtrodden put under the yoke of people that aren't able to to do that ability just to make their lives easier I mean I guess you can make parallels with like you know, final fantasy 9 the black mages and they're made for war and all that kind of stuff but I think this is the first time where really kind of hammers home the the abuse that people. That could use magic were put under.

30:26.52
Dave
Yeah, um, in the game you play as Clive Rosfield who is the first born son of a noble house house. Rosaria Clive himself is a bearer. Ah, so again, that means he can use magic and in most societies he would be a slave but he's from a noble family so instead of being a slave. He is just shit on mercilessly by everybody except for his dad and his brother. His mom is a real you know what to him? Joshua his brother. Is the dominant of the icon Phoenix but Joshua a little kid so he's not you know, like a weapon of war quite yet. So clive is his shield bearer his protector basically to keep him safe until he gets old enough to go out and you know kill droves of soldiers on the battlefield or. Be used for you know, power purposes. Whatever the whatever the house demands or the country we are going to yada yada yada until you team up with a couple of other characters who will form your main party throughout the game you meet Cid. Who is a guy who gives shelter to bearers and keeps them safe kind of creates a safe place for them a man with the deepest voice I've ever heard probably this this side of like Barry white. Maybe Jill who's a childhood friend of clive's and of course torgal.

31:53.20
Dave
Who is the best boy and a direct game of Thrones Dire Wolf analog so torgle is the best friend for them. Um, that's all I want to say about the platform now. But I think we do have a lot of things to talk about about the story in here. Um I just brought up the characters I brought up Joshua Clive Cid jill torgle how do we feel about our main group in this game characters are a big part of the final fantasy series. A big part of rpgs in general How do we feel.

32:25.59
Rick
I think about half of them are just poorly written and not good characters to be quite frank um, some some of them are I mean and there are some flat characters too that are that are really cool like ah like Gavin Cid I mean there they don't experience a ton of change throughout the play. Well maybe Gav does but they don't and experience a ton of change throughout the plot but they're still very cool characters and enjoyable to be around. Um but you know Clive.

32:55.70
Rick
I couldn't tell you much about clive if you asked me I mean I don't think he's a particularly interesting character. We don't get to you know I think back to final fantasy 8 more and more these days for all the faults that that game has we got to see squalls inner thoughts and inner monologues all the time. About how he doesn't feel like he is good enough to be a leader He's incredibly self-conscious. He's kind of an anti-protagonist in that way. Um, with clive. We don't really get that he's just doing protagonist good boy things and I mean Jill I thought the accounts of her. Ah, character writing were exaggerated at first but man I she is practically a nothing character and that's that's kind of a shame because she is extremely important. But yeah I don't know it's about fifty fifty for me.

33:42.70
Dave
Yeah I don't I don't want people to jump all over Rick because if you they're going to jump all over Rick they're going to jump all over me too because I agree I think I think Jill is basically a cardboard cutout of a person. Yeah, well do you want them to jump I'll let them jump.

33:55.69
Rick
Well hold on who's doing the jump in I maybe ah reach out to me directly a pixel project and I'm just kidding I'm just kidding sorry sorry Dave

34:03.57
Dave
Yeah, ah yeah, no I agree. Um like I said I think Jill is meant to be an important character one that you're supposed to feel things for and um that you're supposed to feel certain ways about things that happen with her later in the story.

34:05.25
Eric Gess
We'll meet in a parking lot and fight about it. That's okay so.

34:21.48
Dave
And I I didn't she's just you know she's just kind of there in a lot of scenes. It feels like they needed a a to use a sports term they needed a warm body to fill scenes and occupy a kind of character role. That's how I felt about Jill Cid is charismatic. But again I don't. Really care about Cid. Um I enjoyed clive I enjoyed Joshua and of course I enjoyed Torgal I'm not a monster but you know as as dogs go in games when we talk about combat'll we'll you know I'll take some points away from torgal. But. As far as being a helpful good boy and there are some scenes where I think the bond between torgle and clive and Joshua is is really good actually and serves a purpose but I'm with you on some of the characters. There are characters. You're meant to feel a lot for and I felt. Absolutely nothing for.

35:14.60
Eric Gess
I think in terms of character. You know this game is is different than a lot of final finance games because it is first and foremost at its core. Clive's story and Clive's story alone pretty much whereas like past final finance games. You've had. A party of characters that you're able to swap in and out that you've had like more direct control over. It's like you never have control over anybody other than Clive. So the entire story has to take place through his eyes through playing through him and everyone else is just kind of there for his character and kind of move it along.

35:38.53
Dave
Right.

35:48.54
Eric Gess
Um, I thought clive was fine I didn't mind it and again ah take my words with the green of salt because my favorite character of all time is Sora the most anime protagonist good boy you're ever going to find in a video game. So um, but I thought clive was more compelling a more compelling FF protagonist than we've gotten in recent times I didn't really have any kind of connection to to lightning.

35:55.73
Dave
Successful.

36:08.40
Eric Gess
I didn't really particularly like your character and Noctis. Yeah I like 15 more more than most people. But I think noctis is defining character traits are through his relationship with that core group that is the strength of 15. That's not ah you know, praising Noctis's character in ah of itself. It's praising that core group of characters like together. Um, so I thought clive was at least a little more compelling than than a protagonist. We've gotten from from recent final fantasy games in terms of Jill I'm a little softer on Jill as well because I agree with you guys like towards the end she kind of gets like put on the shelf and I don't agree with the way that happened but. There's a point. There's a point in the game where like it looks like she's getting ready to go on like a very like compelling character arc where she's able to kind of like write some of the wrongs of her past and confront trauma that she underwent ah and and clive. It's very clear through clive. And his story that he gets the opportunity to confront his trauma as well. So I was like oh they're affording Jill like the same rights as as clive in this story. But then yeah once we kind of take that final fantasy killing god turn she kind of just like is only there to like move Clive's motivations along so yeah I think there's an interesting conversation there I love Cid I thought he was a badass. He was super cool. He's probably my favorite Cid in final fantasy other than frogid because frog said is absolutely undefeated and his intro is just so so cool. Ralph innocent his voice is just I want him to like narrate my life like please and if we get dlc.

37:23.41
Dave
I think.

37:36.14
Eric Gess
Please make it Cid Dlc cause I want more about his character. Um, but yeah, like everyone else at the hideout I think people you are supposed to care about that. Yeah, like sold you stuff or just like somewhere like the more like mainstays at the hideout didn't care about too much much. The lone exception is goots I love goots I thought he was great like Goetz is the goat.

37:51.42
Rick
There we go.

37:56.20
Eric Gess
So we have to I got to shout out my boy Goetz and I only remember that because Rick shouted them out on a previous episode we were on so yeah, Goetzis the best man. Um.

38:02.10
Rick
Got a shot out Goetz Dude Goetz is so good. He's big Samwise Gamgee son of a gun I Love him.

38:09.13
Eric Gess
He's a sneaky Mvp so days like not seeing it.

38:12.53
Dave
No I felt nothing for Goetz, Goetz is Hodor and that's it except he can talk in full sentences unlike Hodor yeah, but that's that's what he is. he's he's hodor he's the big guy who is around doing big guy stuff. He.

38:20.75
Eric Gess
He's smarter than Hodor. Yeah, so and give him a little more credit. But.

38:26.98
Eric Gess
Right.

38:29.36
Dave
Mean there's a couple of quests where he helps out and talks to people and stuff but like it's it's just a continuation I'm I'm glad you talked about the other people back in the hideout because I felt nothing for anybody at the hideout people who sell you stuff the blacksmith um, late in the game I said I didn't do side quests. And part of it is because a lot of the side quests are like do you want to learn the backstory of the cardboard cutout who's been giving you quests for the last ten hours and I was like no I don't care about this person I don't want to in this game has worst in-class side quests so that played into it too. But. Part of the reason I didn't do those side quests because I didn't give a shit about any of the people that are connected to them. Um I did blackthorne side quest because I thought they'd give me cool weapons and sometimes they did but I didn't like blackthorne as a character you know.

39:20.90
Rick
Um I can appreciate Blackthorne as a character just from the perspective of somebody that is both deeply proud and deeply self-conscious or maybe self-critical of their own work their trade I'm speaking not just as a podcaster but as a musician it resonated with me. Um, I'm bringing my own stuff to that. You know your mileage may vary. Ah the side quests though I wonder how much of that was final fantasy 14 s influence. Um I played about 12 hours of 14 ah about 11 of those were fetch quests I'm I'm not even exaggerating.

39:44.97
Dave
Yeah.

39:55.52
Rick
And you know it it was the same story in that game. You talk to somebody. They ask you to get something you go and get it you hold down the command button until the little circle fills up to pick it up and then when you drop it off, you have to select it off of a menu that pops up. Um, it's it's copy paste into final fantasy sixteen and. You know, maybe that works in an mmo I'm not one to say I'm I'm too biased against them. But it doesn't work in 16 I don't think and man like I xenosaga series taught me that world building is what I come to jrpgs for I love it.

40:29.35
Rick
And some of the side quest the thing that frustrated me so much and Eric I know I've said this to you already is that it's really hit or miss the ones that are indicated with a plus are always going to give you some kind of an upgrade an upgrade to your potions and upgrade to your caring capacity. Whatever those are important to do if for no other reason than. To help you through the game. Um, it's not a hard game but it'll help you you know, get through without much much trouble. The ones that are just represented by a green indicator. It's it's a total coin toss as to whether it's like Dave said a fetch quest that teaches you about an npc you'll never talk to again. Or something that's trying to further the worldbuding and the thematic struggles that are within this games world. Ah that do ultimately get abandoned then but that's neither here nor there they're still very cool. And I never knew which ones were worth doing or which ones were going to be a waste of 20 minutes and that was so frustrating.

41:24.72
Dave
Yeah, it's really frustrating to games that have really good side. Quest story content inside quest like mechanical stuff in side quest is is is pretty limited I think across video games like there's only so many ways that you can build side quests I think. So what? the good games do is they introduce complications or unforeseen things into the stories of the side quests or maybe you thought like the witcher 3 is is fantastic for this, you think you're going to go there to kill a monster but it's not what it seems. There's ah some complication whether it's a mechanical. Complication a different thing to fight than you expected or that what you were told is not at all what's actually happening and what's actually happening super interesting. This game does none of that and so that the side quest that I did early in the game were like I go here. collect 5 piles of dirt for my garden and then you go there you collect 5 piles of dirt and then you go back and give them the dirt. There is nothing interesting that happens along the way and it just happened too many times you know as the the great poet once said, fool me once shame on you fool me twice. Won't get fooled again.

42:42.15
Eric Gess
Speaking as the ocd member of the group where I have to do everything I have to I can leave no green icon unchecked because it's just going to bother me I'll be 10 minutes down the road and in the main story and be like I should have did that green check Mark because it's just it's all I can think about. Um yeah in terms of. You talking about games I have great side quest like Dave mentioned w are three fantastic um, a more recent one. Ah Horizon Forbidden west the side quest and that game are fantastic because they're always like developing that world and giving you like really really touching character moments. So I think that's the the definitely the good end of the spectrum and the way to do side quests. Yeah, a lot of these are showing their um mmo influence because yoshifi obviously came over from 14 and I got to think that people that play mmos I'm not putting you on a box. So if you play um mmos like I'm not judging you but there's something just very like checking things off a list nature that like alludes itself to playing. And mmo not saying that mmos can't have great side quest but I mean and I I will not play mmo because I know it'll just destroy my life but back when I played Runescape a lot the same thing go there kill that monster find these 2 items put them together bring it back to me whatever like that's just that's just how it is not defending it because there are better ways you can design your side quest there are some in there that I think. Are very touching and ad character and world building building elements to it. They are definitely outnumbered by the the meaningless fetch quest ones again to just a hammer on like what Rick was saying about the the blacksmith his side quest is basically.

44:06.25
Eric Gess
He's feeling a little sad because he saw a piece of armor from a rival blacksmith that he thought was incredible and amazing and he felt he was just feeling really bad about himself and he talked to. He's like my kraft can never live up to this and how can I ever make something this this incredible and and as a person who like makes things and puts them on the internet I was like I feel that because. I think about that every time I put out an episode I'm like this is not great. How can I ever make something as good as like what you guys do or what some of the other podcasters do so thats just it kind of touched me in formed. Ah a connection there I know not everyone's going to do that because not everyone makes stuff or has a podcast but there are things in there and there are a couple of quests in there that. Have like shocking implications to the world and I think Rick knows which one I'm talking about specifically I won't spoil it if we don't want to but that has to do a little bit with how bears are looked upon and stuff so there are some of those there and they like start to like kind of build out the world. But then again like we hit the 50% Mark and it's just kind of like. None of this stuff really matters because we've got the final fantasy bill and to to fight now. So I don't I'm not I'm not defending him but there are some in there that I think add adds some value to the game for sure.

45:12.22
Dave
Yeah, 2 things real quick. You mentioned how you can't leave the little quest icons uncleared and I want you to know how much it hurts me to leave them uncleared too. The sidequest in this game just sucked So Badly. On average that I I I I soldiered through it. Um, and I think.

45:33.81
Eric Gess
That's fair I think too they they all kind of serve and ah this again, not's offending. It. But for me at least they kind of serve a secondary purpose because they they showed up a lot after you had these gigantic action sequences right? and that's when the game really kind of craters to a stop and. I think we'll touch on that when we talk spoilers a little more about how insane those action sequences are but those really got me pumped like I was sweating my heart was beating and stuff so I did enjoy from time to time a miningless um, ah mindless meaningless side quest just to kind of like cleanse my palate. And like reset me for like the next story arc and I realized not everyone thinks in the sick a way that I do but there there were moments where I was just like let me just knock out like 3 quick fetched quests just to like process the crazy shit that had just happened.

46:18.72
Rick
Um, I will say Eric I do agree with you I you know I'm I'm okay with pacing slowing down between these dramatic intense. Ah, just feasts for the eyes I'm cool with that. Um, but I'm thinking back to final fantasy 9 Eric and ah like think of the town of Dali like when the first time that we go there. Um, the pacing is a little bit slower after the evil forest and I was asking myself. Why does that work so well. But the lower. Ah the slower paced stuff in sixteen doesn't and I think.

46:43.28
Eric Gess
Right.

46:54.54
Rick
A lot of it comes down to the character to the ensemble and the characters. Um, it comes down to the world building like we are learning more about the world while being in dolly and sixteen is it's kind of absent in in those areas and while I I definitely appreciated not having just.

47:13.46
Rick
Non-stop Icon Battles constantly? Yes, yes, yes, yes, um.

47:16.32
Eric Gess
Ah, although I would play that game probably ah yeah, ah.

47:17.91
Dave
Oh yeah I would play that that game is called Bayonetta and it's awesome.

47:21.51
Rick
Yeah, isn't that also strangers of of of final fantasy strangers of Paradise or.

47:28.32
Dave
You're basically killing things nonstop in that game. Yeah.

47:28.96
Eric Gess
Yes, and that's just yeah and Jack's just being Jack also but that game has a huge advantage over 16 and then it has Jack in it. So.

47:36.34
Rick
I I.

47:36.79
Dave
It's true. Yeah 16 would get late raised like 2 letter grades if Jack made any appearance at all. Yeah I don't give a fuck who you are ah the side quests.

47:39.89
Eric Gess
Just would have shown up in the middle. One of those giant fights had been like fuck this. Sorry Rick yeah.

47:49.39
Rick
Oh What were we talking about? Um, no, it's okay oh all, all this to say like I I I like pacing to you know, ebb and flow I Just I think they were a little too lax on the the ebbing. Sections You know what? I mean? yeah.

48:07.20
Dave
Yep.

48:10.81
Dave
I also wanted to get your guys' thoughts on the game of thrones comparisons I mean I put it in my elevator pitch because it is one of the big things that was pitched I mean like I think it's fairly common knowledge that like the people making the game. I think we're told to watch game of thrones to get you know inspiration for how that show works. Um, and it's interesting because like I I can think of like some other tv shows that have obviously taken inspiration from game of thrones since it released. But I haven't really seen it in video games like it is kind of on front street in this game. It's a dark gritty world where horrible things happen to good people all the time characters die that are you know part of your main group. Um. The average person you talk to is a giant asshole. It just kind of like everyone's life sucks. So they're not happy people that you talk to a lot of times. Um I personally watched game of Thrones Eric I know you watched it I read all the books that are you know come on George I've read everything you've written. In the series come on put on another book buddy. Yeah I've I've resigned myself to that. But yeah, um I am a fan of game of Thrones. So when I heard the comparisons that was kind of a draw for me like that they're trying this darker thing inspired by game of thrones.

49:22.57
Eric Gess
He's going to die before he finishes it I'm sorry. Ah.

49:38.10
Dave
Ah, Rick do you have experience with that series.

49:42.81
Rick
Technically um I've seen the first episode. Um and I did buy the first book but I bought the first book it was one of those like paperback books that you know they're a little too small and they tried to pack so many words on the page. It's just too small for me to read.

50:00.46
Rick
Um, so it's just been perpetually in my yeah I'll get to it pile. So um I don't I know nothing about game of Thrones I I know the 1 scene with Hodor and that is literally it I've been otherwise unspoiled.

50:13.79
Dave
Okay, fair enough. Um I just wanted to like kind of talk about this as that this is part of the pitch for this game and whether we think that they like you know, right? like you said Rick this game writes a bunch of checks and. Not copying but taking tons of inspiration from game of thrones and trying to reproduce those things that made game of thrones good is a big check to write. So do we think that they hit on it.

50:47.70
Eric Gess
That's one I never I've been asked it in that iteration before um in terms of being inspiration I mean I know I think game of thrones has looked at through the lens of the last 2 seasons because that's the most recent thing right? I think you should not get points for that for sure but up until then like people forget that. That was the best thing on television like through season 6 and that was like appointment watching I was watching that every single week with my dad and like all my friends were watching it. We were all texting about it. So um, game of Thrones I feel like did move.

51:05.35
Dave
Yeah, yeah, agreed.

51:19.52
Eric Gess
The the needle in terms of like the type of media and the type of stories that people were telling and able to tell I mean just look at the shows that got made in response to that right? They made the rings of power. They made the witcher on Netflix like direct responses to how huge game of Thrones was so I think if you're using that as inspiration and source material like I think that's that's absolutely fine. I. I do like the the medieval aesthetic of the world that was kind that kind of took inspiration from that like I I didn't have a problem with that at all. Ah, the only problem I have is is with when clive gets the vampire suit and I absolutely fucking hate that that vampire suit that he gets later in the game I like this I like this chain mail look better but that's besides the point.

51:58.61
Eric Gess
Um, if it would have stuck the landing ah towards the end of the game like and and kept with like the political themes. It was setting up then I would have been like yeah I think it's its inspiration with game of thrones was very well founded but I feel I hate to keep sound like a broker recorder but again like once you get halfway through the game. It's like that stuff doesn't really matter anymore because we've got a bigger existential threat to face and that does happen in game of thrones like when the night King comes and stuff like everybody's kind of got to kind of put aside their differences. But even when that happens like there's still like political maneuvering in there.

52:34.77
Eric Gess
So as bad as those last 2 seasons were there were still like people plotting to like backs sta each other and had their own like interests and goals and that just doesn't happen once you hit 50% of the game. Everybody is just kind of like oh this is a bigger common goal. We have to work towards otherwise we're all going to die and and everyone's just on board with it. So I think it's.

52:34.87
Dave
Yep.

52:53.63
Eric Gess
It's fine to take inspiration from it but whether or not it sticks that landing. Yeah I'm not quite sure.

52:59.87
Dave
Yeah, it's like they took worldbuding inspiration from game of thrones and then like you said once the real plot in you know in air quotes kicks off, it's it's not really thing anymore. Um I you know. I've talked about on this show and other shows. How lots of game developers seem to be taking the wrong lessons from the souls series as those games and that genre gets really really popular I think that a lot of people are taking the wrong lessons from game of Thrones as well. Um. The idea that you have a dark gritty world where people are assholes and named main characters die is not special anymore. Maybe it never was special. The thing that made game of thrones special to me is that the writing was fucking excellent in game of thrones. And in every quiet conversation that people were having in game of thrones. Everyone was like holding their breath listening when Circe and ah you know one of the tyrells were talking to like mother tyrell were talking to each other. You're like. I'm hanging on every word they say and I can't say the same thing about a single conversation in final fantasy sixteen. So it feels like they missed the secret sauce like they took the surface level stuff that's easy to replicate. But the thing that made game of Thrones actually special is just is not really here.

54:24.19
Dave
And then like you said the surface level stuff goes away too. So then we're left with like inspiration for the beginning of the story but not really inspiration for the heart of what final fantasy sixteen is I think.

54:38.55
Eric Gess
I mean yeah I would agree with that like you said it sets it up like it's going to be that because again you going through the demo and like once you finally take over playing older Clive and stuff a couple hours into the game like that stuff's kind of that's all kind of set up there.

54:50.30
Dave
Yeah.

54:55.56
Eric Gess
And the act of time of system kind of backs all that up, but it just yeah, doesn't quite deliver but it delivers like all the other stuff like people are called Lord Commanders and like your grace I'm like oh these titles are all just lifted directly from from from game of thrones. So so yeah I.

55:04.28
Dave
Right? exactly? yeah.

55:10.20
Eric Gess
I would agree with you in saying that the lessons just because you have a a story where people die and there's nudity and people are having sex. It's that's not what makes game of thrones game of Thrones which.

55:15.21
Dave
Yeah, that too. Yeah.

55:21.17
Eric Gess
Yeah, that stuff is just shocking because the characters are so well developed and it's like at any moment any 1 of these characters one misstep could like be the end of them that was like the draw. So yeah, you can't say it quite delivers on that level.

55:32.68
Dave
Yeah, you make a good point. There's there. There's no incestuous relationship in final fantasy sixteen. So I question whether they actually watch Game of Thrones or not yeah um.

55:42.39
Eric Gess
Ah, would have been at least 2 points higher I mean honestly. Ah.

55:47.38
Dave
Rick does I know you don't have the comparison with game of thrones. But do you know? do you agree or have any thoughts about you know the things that we have brought up as they relate to 16 here.

55:56.85
Rick
Well 1 thing that you said Dave was ah when characters on game of thrones are are speaking that the audience is sort of holding their breath because they they don't want to miss anything and while while I do feel that the writing narratively in 16 falls short of of expectations to me personally I think the dialogue writing in general is really quite good I will so with the exception of 2 lines that I can think of that are just real and just real stinkers. Um, like I I thought the writing the dialogue writing was.

56:28.46
Dave
Ah.

56:33.57
Dave
It was pretty good. Yeah, but for me personally never got to the point where like I can't wait to hear what this person says next you know.

56:34.72
Rick
Quite nice.

56:43.30
Rick
Oh sure I mean at the end of the day like it's really tough comparing literature to video games when it comes to writing I mean I'm not saying that video games don't have amazing writing I mean I'm playing pentiment for goodness sake and that's one of my favorite games of all time. But.

57:01.79
Rick
You know I mean George R R Martin is good at what he does because what he does is writing that that is what he does um and you know I I don't have a reference again because I I haven't read the books but as far as dialogue goes I you know I I was into it I liked it.

57:04.42
Dave
Yeah.

58:25.20
Dave
Kind of along those lines and like we have brought up several times at this point that the you know the the base level world building and initial conflicts kind of get left in the dust for like a higher scope level thing as is you know per the series. This is how they ah they always go so just real quick without any spoilers of course. But like since we did move up to this higher scope. Did you find that entertaining Did you like that.

59:21.88
Rick
So that's I mean that to me is final fantasy 16 s biggest misstep it. It sets up all of this cool stuff and does almost nothing with it. 1 of the things that I think about is metya it sets up meta through a series several shots that frame it as being an incredibly important symbol in the game and they ultimately do not do anything with it and that says one of 2 things. It's either sequel bait or dlc bait or. It's it's just a ah mised writing opportunity and I don't like either of those for different reasons. But I don't like either of those um you know the things with the bearers this idea of class this idea of autonomy of independence of of human rights. All of this gets abandoned even the idea. Of clive being stronger with his friends ultimately and and perhaps a mild spoiler. Ultimately, he does it alone at the very end all of these thematic ideas and that's not even touching on the whole ah mithos logos and and Yeshua things. Ah, Joshua Yeshua ah christ all of that. It's not It's not touching on any of that all of these thematic ideas are just abandoned and ah it to be fair. Maybe I'm missing something I would be open to have somebody more knowledgeable in those areas tell me hey no, actually you missed something but to me currently I just it.

01:00:57.71
Rick
Feels like I don't want to say shoddy writing but it feels like disjointed writing and that's the biggest misstep of this game to me.

01:01:06.66
Dave
Yeah, um, the again like that stuff again. Like you said if if I'm missing something that's actually really fucking cool and novel then I'm open to hearing about it. But for me as I sit here. I really liked the stuff they introduced early in the game because it's new. It's cool. It's creative and when it gets abandoned for stuff that is seemingly and like half of these games that I play in this series. It just I've been there before. And there's nothing special about it I don't think and you make a lot of good points about you know how it goes with clive throughout the story and of course we'll dive into this in the spoiler section but like the reason that we're at least me and you and we'll get to you Eric here in a second but like the reason that. We're bemoaning them leaving this like initial setup is because the initial setup is cool and new and the stuff the places they go are not new and your mileage may vary on whether you think it's cool or not but it's certainly not anywhere that I haven't been before.

01:02:08.85
Rick
The Eric brought up the Eric I don't know why I just said that um the Eric from unlockables um, the Ohio state. Um I you know Eric you brought up a side quest earlier ah in involving a bearer and.

01:02:12.85
Eric Gess
Ah, my official title. Thank you for using it the yes.

01:02:26.51
Rick
It was building into this world. This theme of do bearers have inherent worth our bearers people should they be treated like people and not like property or lower than animals the dirt the dirt on the dirt on my boots to quote Kafka and where did that go. I was so hooked on that side. Quest where did it go nowhere and I I was really invested in that.

01:02:48.90
Eric Gess
Ah.

01:02:55.12
Eric Gess
I Guess I can say a couple things. Um, no I I agree with a lot of the points you guys are making for sure. Ah, this is the part where like my blind nostalgia and I think just my long-term exposure to no more radiation has probably warped my brain a little bit. Um, but.

01:03:10.50
Dave
Ah.

01:03:11.31
Eric Gess
Yeah I understand how the second half of the game doesn't doesn't pay off a lot of the stuff it sets up early which is which is really cool stuff and now that they have announced Dlc I hope they I hope they take that chance to go back and maybe expand on some of that stuff because that's the stuff I want to want to see more of for sure. Um, there's just something about. That stupid final fantasy stuff that just makes my brain so happy I don't know what it is like but when it goes to that like bizarre like this doesn't make any sense like none of this stuff is paying off but like I that's what I love the series for because a lot of times it goes like these goofy places where you're just like. This doesn't make any sense and like what do you mean Necron shows up at the end of ffnine that doesn't tease at all. But I love it for some fucking reason just because it's it's so like grandiose and ridiculous in in the way they try to present it and. Yeah I may have seen it like a million times but like no other video games studio is doing like that stupid stuff and I've just I've played it for so long. It's just to me that's that's what it is and you could show me that card trick 47 times and I'm out of it every single time just because no morera has probably melted my brain at this point. So even though he wasn't. Technically involved in this game. So I mean it. Well I mean the kingdom hearts team did help out so he wasn't directly involved but his presence is eternal. You cannot escape. So yeah, that's just my nostalgic.

01:04:19.72
Dave
His influence runs deep. Let's let's admit that.

01:04:31.30
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

01:04:36.95
Eric Gess
Yeah I don't really have any points as to why I like it I just I like stupid things. So.

01:04:39.99
Dave
Well fair enough I mean I asked if you like it. So if you like it That's cool.

01:04:44.75
Eric Gess
As our good friend says it's okay to like a video game right.

01:04:50.23
Dave
That's right shoutout Keith I think final fantasy 16 looks really really incredible. We've we kind of touched on this in the the very top of the show. The spectacle that's on display here. This is aaa video games like if you are. Ah, buying alea games with this kind of budget with this kind of graphical style I think that part of what you want is this kind of spectacle, especially from a fantasy game and this game really delivers I think on like the highest of high spectacle. In the first couple hours you see you like I said you see that fight that battle with titan versus shiva and then you have a big icon fight after that or that was before that it was before that um the visuals the spectacle the the scale of some of the things that are on display here. Really really impressive across the board and that's you know to say that a new final fantasy game like from a fidelity perspective looks good like that kind of goes without saying but the spectacle was really what blew me away as far as visuals go in this game.

01:06:01.38
Eric Gess
Yeah I would agree I'm not I don't normally peg myself as like the the visual guy right? like to me I don't focus on ah you know something is 60 frames a second four k like whatever like if it looks good like I'll I'll play it I'm blind enough as it is to a point where like I really can't tell a difference. Um. Yeah I mean in typical square fashion like their stuff always looks looks good I thought the the direction and everything made a believable world I loved watching the screen like you said it's clear where all of their money went.

01:06:30.46
Dave
Yeah.

01:06:32.28
Eric Gess
In this game right? I mean this the spectacle like we're holding back. But we mentioned a couple times now like when we talk about the gigantic spectacle like it's just when you think it achieves that peak spectacle. It goes like 1 step further and I think that's 1 thing this game does really well. But.

01:06:45.39
Dave
Yeah.

01:06:47.68
Eric Gess
Yeah, in terms of everything I know like when it launched there are like some performance issues and I played on the the whatever the lesser mode is I think it's the quality mode. Ah and turn that mode shimbler off as soon as they put that option in there. Um, but I don't pay too much attention to that kind of stuff I think the game looks great again I grew up.

01:06:58.17
Dave
Man.

01:07:06.00
Eric Gess
And the 16 bit era so I'm just amazed that this shit is on my screen right now. So I'm sure people that are more technical and and notice notice visual things and maybe have a more interesting take but I mean the game is visually stunning like you said and.

01:07:16.89
Dave
Yeah that's not to say that like you know the fact that it is super high fidelity. Four k high resolution textures. All of that means that it's a good looking game but I do think like there is just insane direction. Ah, behind some of like we said keep saying the word spectacle but like some of this is the coolest shit I've ever seen in a video game from like a visual perspective there were there were fights in the game where I was sitting there with like my mouth hanging open like a little kid. You probably the first time I saw you know. Acker of time when I was however old. The first time I played that like the thing that was the coolest shit I'd seen then now I've now seen like some of the coolest shit again in this game so it's it's just just really impressive and again probably where like the bulk of their money went. Paying all these people to make these cgi stuff.

01:08:15.23
Rick
And yeah, it's not really fair to compare it to the older final fantasies. Although I I will say I do prefer when the the art direction is more theatrical. You know your ff 4 six nine ah your sea of stars your pentiment. Ah like I really like things like that. Um, that aren't hyper realistic. However, I mean there's just no arguing it this this game looks phenomenal and that is I mean to me far and away it's strongest suit. It's it's incredible.

01:08:42.52
Dave
Um, yeah I think when I think back to the things I liked the most about final fantasy 16 It will be those moments where I could not believe what was on my tv like what I was looking at the. Our direction around some of these fights that you do that is probably like you said Rick the strongest part about the game to me. It's certainly the most memorable thing as years pass I will forget about the story of this game but I will remember some of those fights.

01:09:14.83
Eric Gess
In terms of visual like I said squares always been very good at that they used to be on the cutting edge people have kind of caught up to them. But in terms of like their last three like I said they're out of their major ips they put out Kh 3 7 remake 16 like all those games have looked fantastic cage 3 is basically a Pixar movie. 7 remake. There's so much detail in that world in the in the world in the city of midiggar when you're in there and I would say there's not as much of that in in 16 just because a lot of that is more like open fields. It's not like a gigantic clustered city. That's also a power generator. So I think the detail in 7 remake in in key new hearts is a little little bit more. But.

01:09:38.95
Dave
Um, and.

01:09:54.17
Eric Gess
It's still in terms of like they they they know what they're doing. They got visuals down if they if they struggled earlier in the decade or with worth earlier. You know games or titles I think they've got that pretty much ironed out for sure.

01:10:03.12
Dave
I will say like from an from an art direction perspective I thought a lot of the dungeons were very boring to look at to play especially to play but to look at there were anonymous corridors and anonymous like hexagonal or octagonal.

01:10:14.92
Eric Gess
Um.

01:10:19.65
Eric Gess
Um, yeah.

01:10:21.00
Dave
Arenas to fight it and stuff like that. So it's not a plus is across the board as far as art direction goes in my opinion.

01:10:28.95
Rick
Um, I am really surprised that more people aren't talking about the linearity of a lot of this game. Um, how heavily lampooned 13 was at its release for its linearity and still to this day. Um I mean I'm I'm not defending that game necessarily. But. There's a lot of linearity in this game and even when you do get to explore the open world. A lot of it is bare like it's not populated. It doesn't feel like a world that I am a a new observer in it just feels like it's there for me to to explore if I want to but nothing's actually going on.

01:11:02.50
Dave
You know I think that's a really good point and I forgot to write this in the notes. But I think the fact the way that you interact with the world in this basically via choosing nodes on a map screen and you never see anything in between the places where you're going. You know at least in final fantasy Thirteen you're walking through like the corridors and stuff you might see out in the um, the distance in some of the levels that you're in final fantasy ten is the same way like extremely linear game. Um. I don't think people are criticizing 16 because we've we've swung the other way on Giant open Worlds A lot of people have now like back when 13 released everyone wanted big open world games everyone in air quotes I know but I think that's part of the reason that game got criticized now a lot of people are exhausted by big open worlds and it's. Kind of ironic that this is a very linear game that's still as long as a lot of those big open world games are but the fact that the world doesn't feel like a real place that you're inhabiting and that the other people are inhabiting I think part of that is because when I want to go somewhere I. I Don't even get the option to walk there myself for the most part you know a lot of open world games get criticized because you just fast travel from place to place but in this game you don't have the option to not do that. That's how you have to go from place to place is just pick this from a map screen pick.

01:12:26.66
Dave
I Want to go to the other side or I want to go to the next level. It's like right next to here you could walk there but it's really fucking complicated I don't see why anyone would do that if you want to go longer than that You can't walk from place to place you have to choose it from a map screen and so the world loses some of that like. You know, kind of lived in quality or like feeling familiar with the places that you're going through because you know you might return to the places you've been before but there's really nothing special about It. You're just picking it from that map screen I think.

01:13:03.28
Rick
I I Ah just to clarify something that I said I I I'm not against linearity in games I think it can help storytelling especially really really to a great degree. Um, it's more so with this game like I just felt like everywhere I was going.

01:13:11.98
Dave
Yeah.

01:13:18.88
Rick
And I know I am not the first one to say this I Just can't remember who I heard it from but it it seems like there's always this really big visual cue telling you exactly where you need to go. It's like it's like it's trying to trick you into thinking you can go more places than you can, um, but it's actually.

01:13:37.37
Dave
Who.

01:13:38.48
Rick
A tight line which you know I Some people might say that's a great thing. Um, that's it comes down to taste and there's no accounting for that. But I don't know it it I Wish there was I Wish there was a better balance I guess.

01:13:49.72
Eric Gess
I Think Linearity has gotten a bad rap recently because linear games are not bad games. Some of my favorite games of all time are very linear games. So Not every game has a reason to be a gigantic open world like if you just have a giant open world. That's great. But if it's not filled with anything to do like. Like what like what what purpose does it serve. It doesn't it doesn't serve any person to just kind of kind of waste your time I think too you have to think also and maybe this is just my brain because when I played this game ah literally a month before this we got tears of the kingdom which is the antithesis of what this game is. It's a.

01:14:08.30
Dave
Yeah.

01:14:25.27
Eric Gess
Hey I see that mountain in the distance over there I can literally go there. There's nothing stopping me I just go over there and there's usually something over there for for me to check out right? So I went from playing the most freeing experience possible in a video game today to this which is a much more constrictive limited like the. This is a aaa experience like Dave is like hammered home like this is what square enx is now they have to make triple a games to make this money and a lot of these alea games like even though god of war does it better god of war also is like these pass to like box arenas where you fight things and you go to the next thing even though that world they did a better job of interconnecting that world I I would definitely say but. That's the aaa experience these days.

01:15:07.00
Dave
I'm just going to say straight out I'm glad this is linear and I don't trust square annex to make an open world I think it would be terrible just based on how they design quests and stuff like that in this game I am very happy that I could skip all that shit. And just kind of keep the train moving when it got to a certain point in the story. You guys mentioned the voice acting before um I want to kind of give my two cents on it I thought the voice acting is really well done. Um I could not suspend my disbelief that that's what Clive and Cid sound like it sounds weird. But especially Cid I just maybe it's the the model in the voice. There's something about it where I was like that's not how he talks that's it's it's me with dunky Rick that's not how he talks I can't believe his real voice. Um, people say that I don't believe it. It's ah it's a lie I'm being Truman showed right now. Um.

01:15:50.84
Eric Gess
Ah, that is how he talks.

01:16:00.25
Dave
But the voice acting is well done. Everyone who was hired did a great job I think Ben Starr did a great job as clive. Even if I was like yeah is that the voice for Clive I'm glad he doesn't sound like teetus or cloud or something like that. But yeah, everyone did good. It will just leave it at that. There were a couple of performances late in the game where I thought they were laying it on really really thick, but that's what they were asked to do so they did a good job with that.

01:16:26.29
Eric Gess
1 thing I appreciate too I just I have to shut out Ben Starr because we have a lot of these final fantasy vo that voice actors that it's just it's kind of a role right? But Ben Starr has really like embraced the the community and it seems to me like he's like actual like genuine gamer. Dude right? Like he. He posted the other day when it was announced that Charles Martine was retiring that he was doing mario's voice in clive's voice and it was just like this is hysterical. So so he seems like yeah he seems like he was really like genuinely invested in like the project whereas like even Haley Joe Osman is Sora like doesn't ever mention that he plays Sora like literally literally ever.

01:16:49.20
Dave
Yeah, he's got a good.

01:17:02.40
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:17:03.31
Eric Gess
So ah, there are people that just kind of like phone it in but I appreciate his effort and like he took it seriously when he was going to be in a final finance scheme and I can that definitely shows through whether you're not that believe you believe that's his voice or not and then yeah Cid Ralph and innocent just makes me feel like I need to smoke more.

01:17:17.14
Dave
Um, yeah, you should be. You should be smoking right now Eric when you do it man.

01:17:19.70
Eric Gess
Even though I I love his voice but every time Sue was on screen I'm like I should be smoking right now I just feel like yeah, you're right all the time just on the show right? I'm a newports guy myself but I'm not just.

01:17:26.90
Rick
And now for a break for our sponsors marlborough.

01:17:29.46
Dave
Um, yeah, um.

01:17:34.18
Rick
Oh damn look at you fancy man. Okay.

01:17:35.80
Dave
Ah, ah, music and final fantasy sixteen I wanted to get you guys thoughts on the music I this is by main credit to Maoshi Soan who did the music for final fantasy 14 which is like.

01:17:39.41
Eric Gess
Um, cigarettes are too expensive like.

01:17:55.43
Dave
Universally revered I have never heard a bad thing about that ost um I liked this soundtrack a lot. Especially I think it sets a great tone in the first couple hours like we said in that demo um a lot of really intense scenes battle scenes. Um I Remember that again the fight. With Titan and Shiva that it's intense orchestrated battle music. But it's weaving in like the the final fantasy prelude melody that we all know and love from the entire series. Um, a lot of good stuff I think in here The ah.

01:18:29.34
Eric Gess
Yeah, oh.

01:18:32.91
Dave
The full orchestration I think is really cool, heavy heavy emphasis on male vocal choirs throughout it which I think adds a lot of power to a lot of the songs where they're apart and you're going to hear them a lot because they're part of a lot of like the the combat and boss battle tracks and stuff. But. Um, I thought this was great I really enjoyed it. It's probably not going to be one where I'm like humming the songs to myself like I've had vvs themes stuck in my head since I played ff 9 like a year ago now but it's a different type of you know, score you know.

01:19:08.65
Rick
Um, I will say I kind of prefer the more relaxed tracks to the bombastic ones like you know, thinking of the Titan fight which is a really really cool track to be to be fair I I found myself more often just thinking about the like the hideaway theme. Um, or maybe that's not the.

01:19:12.95
Dave
Yeah.

01:19:25.39
Dave
Yep.

01:19:26.95
Rick
Hideaway theme da da da da da da da da like whatever that 1 is played on like a so string instrument.

01:19:30.10
Eric Gess
Yeah, there's what and there's one where you're walking through like the green wood too that was very like peaceful and serene to that is is really great.

01:19:37.16
Dave
Um, yeah, that.

01:19:39.43
Rick
Um I prefer those tracks man Um, in general though like I thought this music did a good job of staying out of the way when it wasn't needed and I appreciated that a lot.

01:19:46.80
Dave
Yeah to to be clear like those quiet things I think are really really good and there's a point in the game where like the tone changes of the entire game. Basically. Ah, both visually and with music and I thought that was really really well done I enjoyed that a lot I mean it. It plays into more quiet stuff like you said so good point.

01:20:10.91
Eric Gess
Yeah I think in terms of music and I'm going to make this point so I can give Rick the same layup that I did on an earlier episode because he had a really great point about it so I won't I won't take you Rick but um in in terms of like the score. Yeah I think the score is really great. Ah, it's not 1 of my preferred square unix composers. But.

01:20:18.70
Dave
I.

01:20:29.67
Eric Gess
Did a great job I think the tone and this is just kind of a shift in video games in general we're seeing a lot more of these fully orchestrated scores in games, especially these aaa games right? and I think that's because these games are shifting more towards the the cinematic end and I just couldn't help myself thinking about. Movies right? like movies have these very heavily orchestrated scores that kind of like live in the background a little bit and kind of serve to like help move the the movie forward and and I felt kind of the same way about 16 soundtrack whereas like if you're going back to like the older days. Like a lot of the music is like the same and and that's not a problem because it was it was fitting in the theme of the game and I thought that it themed the game very well whereas like if you go back to like final financing 9 for example, like the music in that game is so diverse and how many different styles of music uim mazzo uses and just how many different like tracks. There are. In that game that it's it's almost a different type of of music and you know I mentioned shima more a lot just because I think her work on the kingdom heart series is fantastic in the way that she interweaves themes to like also tell the story and kind of like tell secrets. The story that when you go back and listen when you know the story you're like oh okay, like that makes sense why she's using that theme here and she pulls all the themes forward throughout the entire series and kind of interweaves them as she goes whereas like this is just like it's a cinematic orchestra to like theme the game and I'm sure Rick can correct me on all of the correct terminology and stuff. But.

01:21:58.75
Eric Gess
So I just feel like it's a different type of final fantasy score than we've had previously and compared to like older stuff and compared to like some of the stuff that Shima Mora was doing.

01:22:11.34
Rick
I No I don't I don't need to correct you at all man I mean that was those well said. Um, no, you know I think most final fantasy tracks osts have their own character to them and I think this one is the character of.

01:22:12.97
Dave
Let a bit.

01:22:26.96
Rick
16 I I have no idea what layup you were talking about Eric the point that I made before like I I genuinely don't remember um ok, that's hey ok, but um, yeah, you know I mean like thinking about 9 thinking about 10 10 2 Especially.

01:22:33.52
Eric Gess
Okay, well I'll just throw it into the stands and that's fine. Ah.

01:22:45.73
Rick
Um, and now sixteen I I think they're all very emblematic of what the game is and you know I don't ah I don't have strong feelings about this soundtrack I think it's good.

01:22:48.20
Dave
Yeah.

01:22:55.23
Dave
Yeah, kind of along you. You mentioned the um like the orchestral stuff Eric and like you know the comparison with movies and I've brought it up on some of the aaa games that have what I would call like a Marvel movie score basically and I think this game has more personality. Like this soundtrack has more personality and memorable qualities to it than a Marvel movie score you know the Marvel movies or I said this about god of war ragnarok that game has 1 recognizable melody that they kind of weave through a lot of the tracks and stuff. But other than that I I couldn't tell you about like the I couldn't tell you much more about that except you know again, deep male choir. But I think this game has a lot more personality than the quote marvel movie score um, there are a couple of ah things that. We're a little bit like kind of bummers about this soundtrack though I don't want to point them out this game has like 300 tracks in the soundtrack. There's one combat theme that you'll hear throughout the entire game and that's kind of a bummer I would have liked to mix it up I think there might be like a dungeon combat song too. But you're not in very many dungeons. So you don't hear it a whole lot and there's a really cool vocal version of the victory fanfare. You know the tutata da da da da da a powerful choir version of that and you hear it like 6 times in a 45 hour game you'll beat

01:24:25.79
Dave
Big important story bosses and not hear it. You'll just get like this very anticlimactic new tone after the battle and it's It's a real buzz kill I fucking hated it give me that fanfare. What are you doing.

01:24:41.68
Eric Gess
I did think 1 thing that was interesting too is like you mentioned ah some of those themes get interwov in a way we haven't really heard before like when you start the game up and that that menu theme is like the darker version of the the final fantasy prelude that makes you it kind of sets the the tone for what? what's what's going to be coming forward and.

01:24:54.79
Dave
Yeah.

01:25:01.35
Eric Gess
Also kind of the way too. They interweave like the the main final fantasy theme in there during like triumphant moments whereas like most of times this final fantasy soundtracks like shy away from that They don't really like touch the prelude they don't really touch like the main theme like all the scores have like their own identity. So. Ah, kind of like the just homage to the series overall and including the prelude including the main theme.

01:25:19.83
Dave
Yeah I think they did a good job with that for sure.

01:25:27.19
Rick
My my only ah pet peeve with this ost is they took away the chocobo theme and reduced reduced it to like a little sting.

01:25:30.82
Dave
Yeah, you just get a little Yep the sting is good I like the sting but I would have liked to hear the the full thing for sure.

01:25:36.72
Eric Gess
Um.

01:25:40.50
Eric Gess
Gives you a little nostalgia shot and that's all it does.

01:25:52.93
Dave
Sorry trying to figure out. Do I Want to move us on. Yeah, we're gonna move on. Yeah, we mentioned at the top of the show that this is an action game. It's the first like a full.

01:25:58.63
Eric Gess
Dave is also hacking while he's podcasting at the same time. Ah.

01:26:09.30
Dave
Action game in the main final fantasy series stranger paradise notwithstanding action game incredible action game. This is a little bit different though. Um, first thing to kind of point out is this is a flashy action game tons of particle effects. You know, really.

01:26:29.24
Dave
Animations with a bunch of personality. It's character action and and they did bring on the combat designer from devil may cry 5 to help build this combat system out. It's also why I said at the top of the show that this is an action game and not an action rpg because it is just a pure action game. Um, you press square to attack. You only have 1 attack button I thought that was kind of a bummer like no heavy attack light attack buttons and that may seem like a real nitpick. But. I'm getting there I promise what you're doing basically in combat is you? You're attacking. You're using abilities from the icons that clive can kind of like take in the essence from the blessed by if you will and you you can use their abilities in combat um small enemies. You just. Fight until they're dead larger enemies have a stagger bar very similar to 7 remake or other games with stagger bars see also video games. Um, what you're doing is kind of whittling down those stagger bars until they enter a staggered state where you can kind of unload for high damage stuff and take them down. Um, the reason I'm kind of making these um made that nitpick at the beginning is that I think this combat looks really complicated but at its base level. It's extremely simple and gets extremely repetitive as you play. This was a fun game to play.

01:27:59.98
Dave
Fun in the hands. But my brain is bored out of my fucking mind especially during boss fights because they have so much health and you are just kind of repeating the same order of operations over and over again. Um I know that this is not how a lot of people feel. This is how this is. The exact same criticism I made about Xennoblade chronicles combat where every single fight The things look different the enemy you're fighting looks different. You might have to dodge different attacks not in Xennoblade but in this game but what you're actually doing is the same in every encounter. You are just waiting for your cooldowns to be ready and hammering that stagger bar or if it's just a regular enemy hit them until they're dead.. What do you guys? think.

01:28:54.47
Rick
Um, I so so I played Bayonetta recently ah shout out to moon. He's a regular and in Dave server. He's in mine. Yeah yeah, moon your loved buddy if you're listening to this? um and one of the things about Bayonetta that I think is so cool is that.

01:29:02.43
Dave
Hell yeah, shout out to moon.

01:29:12.50
Rick
You have a lot of expression in how you can move what we mean when we say expressive gameplay is what can you draw upon in your bag of tricks in your ah in your quiver in your your arrow quiver to play in a style that is reflective of you. That's kind of what makes action games so cool to me. Ah, but in ffsixteen you don't really have that you kind of have to pretty much play the way that they want you to um, that's kind of exactly what you said Dave I mean you've got one combo button.

01:29:33.58
Dave
Little.

01:29:48.40
Rick
Um, you can't really dodge cancel. You don't have any way to stop ending lag landing lag or anything like that. It's just you know they they didn't fully commit to being an action game. Um, maybe my hope for this like if if we're being optimistic my hope for this is that. Retrospectively we can look back at this and say that 16 was like a stutter step to becoming a full on action franchise and 17 will be the next one that like really nails this down I hope that happens I really do I I miss turn base but we can get that elsewhere. Plenty of good turn base games. Um.

01:30:15.74
Dave
Who.

01:30:23.79
Dave
Yep.

01:30:25.70
Rick
That's ultimately what it came down for to me I found my icon set up that I liked ah pretty early on and even as I got the later ones I just didn't change it because 1 they're not as useful and two. It's not really all that different I mean like you said Dave you're just kind of waiting for your cool downs doing your. Same old combo ah and dodging which to be fair, the dodging and the parrying I mean yeah I mean they work. Well I mean that's that's fun. It feels great to get a parry and it feels great to get a precision dodge but I just wish it were more expressive like a bayonetta or like a devil may cry.

01:30:54.52
Dave
The. Yeah, it's you know you mentioned those icons and the the thing that kind of killed it for me is that there's there's really no reason to use 1 icon over another except that one's icon. 1 ne's cooldowns are ready and the others are not so like. Maybe 1 icon will have a really strong attack that you have to charge up and it does a ton of damage. Well you have 2 other icons that have an attack just like that. So this one's cooldowns are ready. The other ones aren't I'm going to use the one that's ready. There's no elemental weaknesses. There are no real benefits like. If different ones have appreciable differences in how they affect the stagger bar I couldn't really tell. Um, besides you know the big attack that you have to charge up and hit does more stagger damage because it's a more powerful attack but there's just no strategy to it. Other than dodge at the right time attack at the right time.

01:31:59.61
Rick
Um, there are some that have that do more stagger damage and I'm sorry Eric I know you've got stuff to say um like Aruda's claws for example are great stagger damage ah shiva's it might actually be her special. Um like her ultimate special.

01:32:02.38
Dave
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:32:15.53
Rick
Ah, that gets great staggered damage. But um, the elemental the lack of elemental properties drove me up a wall I could not believe they took that away it functionally makes magic just just projectile and that's it.

01:32:28.71
Dave
Just yeah, different different magic different elements are just different colors. They don't have any functional difference. Um, you know this is I promise I will kick to you Eric but the Eric's over there tearing his hair out. Um, when we talk about like.

01:32:31.98
Rick
Yeah.

01:32:45.69
Dave
Things that are carried through in the final fantasy series. Some of the important things that are carried through are enemies like bombs and Marl Burroughs and and they change that to marble because I think they were just like no one can pronounce. Marlborough we're changing the name but the enemy is exactly yeah.

01:33:00.90
Rick
Um, we're getting too many kids hooked on smoking. We got a pivot. Ah.

01:33:02.86
Eric Gess
Right? ah.

01:33:04.49
Dave
Again, sponsored the show. Big fan of the show. Um those enemies that get carried along they come with like this institutional knowledge that like I fought bombs in previous final fantasy games I know how bombs work. Well they don't work that way in final fantasy sixteen anymore. You don't hit them with fire to make them explode like you can a stranger of paradise respects this shit fucking stranger paradise gets it. Um, there's there's no real difference. They're just there your knowledge about how to deal with them doesn't help you in this game and so you're reduced to like we said. I use this attack. It's cool down is is you know, busy. So I switch to another icon use their attacks switch to the other one maybe by the time I use the third one the first one's cool downs are ready and I'll switch back and that is how 99% of the fights in this game. Go.

01:33:58.77
Dave
Yes, we're we're setting you free now.

01:33:58.96
Eric Gess
Oh okay, I'm I'm I'm going now. Okay, no yeah so um, no I agree with a lot of the criticisms and I think the interesting thing about the scheme is that the initial playthrough seems like it's very curated like you're always right around the level you need to be and. Everything kind of does consistent damage across the board with like the way things scale and stuff so the initial playth through this game is very like obviously their goal in making this game was to make a game that is more accessible to everyone and drawn a newer audience and I think the initial playthrough of that game in the way that combat is designed reflects. That design decision because yeah, it's very surprising that the combat is as simplistic as it is and and kind of limits player expression especially when they brought in Su Zuki and and with how stylish and and all the combos and stuff and devil may cry and ah tay yasway and the kingdom hearts team even came over to help out and. For all the criticisms levity against kingdom hearts. Its combat system in the later titles allows for a lot of different expression and even takes elemental weaknesses and you're able to weave magic into your your physical combos. So it's surprising that. Yeah it kind of it's in that first playthrough where I will defend the combat and I think it shines a little bit more is. It benefits from an additional playthrough on new game plus like I said I'm playing it through on final fantasy mode where the level cap is raised to 100 and again on that first playthrough one of the most annoying things is when you unlock all the icons you can spend ability points to like level up their abilities and when you master them.

01:35:29.43
Eric Gess
The the customization thing is supposed to be. You can move icon abilities to the different icons and mix and match them. Unfortunately the first playth through the game doesn't give you enough points to do that with all the abilities. It's not until you get further into a second play through a new game plus where you get all those options.

01:35:38.95
Dave
Who.

01:35:46.25
Eric Gess
And the bosses are a lot harder and there is that element of strategy there where it's like this boss was hard I need something they can stagger it more and some of those icon abilities lend themselves to staggering more so I know that's not like a good selling point tour. It's like you just got to crank up the difficulty and play the game again and the combat is good. A lot of the elements of kingdom hearts aren't fully appreciated until you play on that harder proud critical mode where those systems really really come out. It's just it's not balanced well to like an initial first playthrough especially for like veteran video game people who kind of like know what they're doing. But. When you crank it up just a little bit like that element of strategy and and then that toughness and that customization gets there. So I know it's not like a good defense of the game but like there is something there when it's a little bit more difficult I don't know if that's like a redeeming quality or not.

01:36:34.53
Dave
There There are lots of games like you said where the combat system really starts to shine when you turn the difficulty up. We talked about the witcher three I Firmly believe that the witcher three s combat is serviceable but it's actually pretty good on higher difficulties because it.

01:36:51.95
Eric Gess
Um.

01:36:52.17
Dave
Makes you engage in the system surrounding combat. It's just a shame that final fantasy sixteen doesn't let you play on a higher difficulty until you beat the game once and like I'm not going to play this game again just to experience the you know supposed better version of combat So like I'm glad that you um. Playing on that to get that perspective because I had heard that before but I wanted you know I hoped someone on the podcast would be able to speak to that.

01:37:23.18
Eric Gess
You can always kind of me to do this sicko shit for Square Unix to to bring that perspective. So ah.

01:37:23.90
Dave
We salute you? Yeah so like kind of in conclusion with the combat I really the overwhelming feeling that I had when playing this is that my hands are having fun to get dodging. Peering again. The spectacle of what you're doing is often really impressive, but the actions that I'm going through are the same actions I've been doing for the entire game rick you made a good point. There are some icon abilities that do make you mix it up that are situational. You know. Someone's getting a big attack. Ah Gurua has ah a dodge attack that if you time it right? You do huge staggered damage and it's great. There's another icon later that that gives you a big block and if you time that right, you can get a nice counter attack and like that's all cool. But you use those the same way against every single enemy so they fall into that order of operations that basically like when they're ready I will dodge the next attack to do that counterat attack and that's the the depth of the strategy. Um. And this this really comes to a head you know I praise the hell out of the spectacle of the boss fights but the combat system falls down even farther in the boss fights because they take so long that you know maybe I I do that order of operations twice against a mini boss.

01:38:51.64
Dave
Fight cool down stagger bar punish repeat against a mini boss in a real boss. It might take 6 or 7 times and it's really like man. Can we just get this shit over with like they're not going to kill me. You know so can we just. Hit the I get it button and skip to the story cut scene that comes afterward.

01:39:10.94
Eric Gess
I think too when you stack it up again. I hate to keep bringing 7 remake into this when you stack it up against 7 remake where it does have that kind of situational strategy of being able to switch to additional characters and they have abilities that do different things and which I'm sure we'll touch on in second a more robust rpg system. Yeah, it just it looks like a lighter version of of that.

01:39:31.00
Dave
Agree 7 remake has fantastic combat I think and I also agree I think it was you rick that said this like hopefully final fantasy 17 will take this and build on it and they like the bones are there. For a really fun and satisfying combat system it just they left out some of the key parts that would have made me ever use my brain in a fight.

01:40:05.39
Dave
I Also think it's a big bummer that you have so many abilities that you unlock throughout the course of the game and you can only equip 6 at a time. Um, it really discourages me from putting points into anything other than the six that I know are good. Ah, because like you said you don't get enough points to level everything up and even if you wanted to you can only pick six So why? Why would I level up 15 different skills when 6 is all I really need.

01:40:31.79
Eric Gess
Yeah, it really does like I said it. It really is a lot better when you have that additional playthrough. But yeah, they're they're very clearly structuring your initial playthrough of the game so that you just are not overwhelmed by it.

01:40:48.79
Rick
And I almost wish they would have ah just done away with the customization aspect um and built more or leaned heavier into just making the upgrades make the the ah iconic moves do more damage or just do different things.

01:41:06.35
Dave
Um, yeah.

01:41:06.70
Rick
Um, you know that that would have taken the custom customization away. Yes, but it also would have encouraged you to strategize a bit more and encourage you to like swap icons all the time because like I said I use the same 3 throughout the last half of the game. Um because I just found that they worked I got the last icon and I was like oh this is.

01:41:19.44
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

01:41:26.68
Rick
Not nearly as cool as I thought and I could be doing way more damage with the third icon. So ah, the third icon is very jack from strangers of paradise he he punch he punch hard and he punch fast. It's true.

01:41:36.52
Dave
Ah, yeah, and yeah and he doesn't give a fuck.

01:41:41.40
Eric Gess
Jack wouldn't need icons to to beat everything in the world of final fintacy sixteen. So.

01:41:44.30
Dave
No now you put you put Jack in this game. He want to beat everything with his bare hands all right? We're getting a little long in the tooth. So let us go to a little wrap up before this boiler section here. The question. We always ask at the beginning of this kind of wrap up and housekeeping part is. Who would you recommend final fantasy 16 to.

01:42:08.48
Eric Gess
I guess I can take the first I'll be a little bit more positive on it here. Um, honestly I think if you're if you're looking to get into the series I think they set out to make a game that was accessible and appeal to a wider audience. So this is if this is if you're looking to kind of jump in it and get ah a taste of some of the final fantasy stuff I think. This is a good entry point I also think if you're a fan of this series I think this game is worth a playthrough. It's certainly the the most put together final finances game that we've had in a decent amount of time you know, not counting that they reset 1415 was just a chopped up media mess. So. I think in terms of like a package of a complete aaa experience and like if you're like the the average gamer who maybe doesn't have a podcast or you know you play very specific games or just stick to ale a games I think this is an easy recommend. Um. I enjoy my time with it I I'll go out on limit and I say that I like this more than I like Zeal the tears of the kingdom so you can you can have that quoted and on the internet forever. So um, but I think it's good I think it's worth a a playthrough but again like I've said this whole thing I am much more blinded by my square Enix Nostalgia so I do agree that the criticisms that were levied toward. This scheme are one ah hundred percent warranted and it can always be better and I hope it will be better like you guys said in final fantasy seventeen because I think it's a good good stepping stone in the right direction. But if you're at all morbidly curious about it I would go ahead and pick it up.

01:43:35.49
Eric Gess
It did financially well enough that greens came out and said it met our expectations. They green lit to D they green lit to dlc for it. Saw mean it obviously did well enough that that they're spending more time with it.

01:43:47.59
Rick
I yeah I can echo some of that I mean if you're somebody like Eric said that likes to play triple a games I mean this is an easy recommend like you said, um, if you are somebody that you know likes to play a little bit of everything quote unquote you know, like like somebody like that this is an easy recommend. I wouldn't recommend it to like die hard action fans and I wouldn't recommend it to die hard jrpg fans. Um because they might find this to be a bit disappointing but you know and if you're new to final fantasy. Ah, there are better places to start I think but there are worse to start than 16 for sure. So. So really I mean the only folks that I might not recommend this to would be hardcore action game fans. Ah you know or hardcore jrpg fans.

01:44:34.92
Eric Gess
What Rick and I both really want to say is that you should start with final fantasy 9 That's the bet. That's the best 1 Ah.

01:44:37.23
Rick
Well twist my arm into saying it. Why don't you.

01:44:41.21
Dave
Yeah I agree with you guys I think that this is a like a decent starting place. Especially if you're the type of person who prefers action combat to some of the other variations on turn based or like. More active but not action combat that the series has gone through before this is a fine place to start? Um I'm super critical of this game because they were just it's close like I think the reason that I'm critical of it is because I can see all of the areas where it's like this would have been really great. But it just didn't quite get there and I think that's the reason why a lot of the flaws in 16 stand out as it stands you know I'll just say when I do my you know top 5 games of a year at the end of this year this is not going to be in the top 5 not close. Even. Um, it's a game that like I kept pushing through because I wanted to see what was going on with the story like the main story I already said that that was a little bit disappointing. So there. We go. But. For newcomers to the series. It's not the worst place to start for people who like an action game an action triplea game. Um, if you like all the spectacle and budget that comes with aaa games and I am someone who likes that I'm not saying that in a like disparaging way I love a good like.

01:46:08.61
Dave
High spectacle high budget aaa game I love them. This is one of those and like I said at the top this gave me a lot of the enjoyment that those games those others give me too. So just as it stands it's it's mostly disappointing again. Baby steps for them after the the. Galaxy brain disaster that fifteen was in my opinion of a multimedia experiment that resulted in in my opinion, a bad video game. This is not a bad video game. This is a complete package. It works everything they set out to do like they they put in this game. Um. They're going to make dlc I'm going to skip it. I'm not interested I'll just say that. But for everyone who did like it that's cool I mean I'm I'm always happy when people get what they want from games I would have loved to spend an hour 47 minutes now praising the hell out of it. But that's just not where we ended up. But. Ah, enough of that. Let's get into some housekeeping before the spoiler section here I mentioned at the top of the show that Rick is the host of pixel project radio podcast and Eric is the host of the unlockables podcast so I will give you guys the customary time to introduce your shows. And I'm taking a page from Rick's book here tell us an episode or 2 that you think are representative of your show that you would like people to check out.

01:47:32.82
Eric Gess
Oh my name like guess Dave said my name is eica hosting lockable's podcast which I bill is the story of video games of people who play them and the memories made it along the way if you want to follow me on all the good old socials you can head over to link tr. E e for slash unlockables podcast that's where all of the good stuff is my Twitter instagram all that fun stuff where you can find the show any of the various Twitter clones that we have now because Twitter's deise I sorry axes demise may or may not be imminent I don't even know what's going out with that anymore. But.

01:47:58.67
Dave
Right? The ongoing saga. Yeah.

01:48:03.86
Eric Gess
Yes, um, if you're coming to my show for the first time 2 episodes. You definitely check out is I had the pleasure of interviewing both Dave and Rick on my show talking a little bit about their love of video games and ah you know a little bit about the the shows that they make and those are 2 fantastic episodes and then. If you want to hear me talk about more big brained square unix stuff I have a kingdom heart series where I'm playing the entire series. It's got like 11 episodes 20 hours already I'm um through the first 4 games and that is a. Very very very comprehensive look at the series as a whole. So if you're interested in hearing me ramble more about crazy square stuff that would be another good one to check out. So and I'll toss it over to Rick.

01:48:45.43
Rick
Yeah, sure I'll ah I'll keep this short. Ah so we could move on I I am the host of pixel project radio. You can find us on whatever device service that you use to listen to podcasts. You can also find us on Twitter. Ah, Instagram and blue sky. Ah we've ah we we put out a couple of episodes each month where we tried to do a mixture of broad game reviews as well as a more beat by beat book club style analysis. Ah, a couple of episodes that I would recommend to get a flavor of the show to see if you'd like to come back for seconds and maybe thirds would be ah well why not introduce yourself to the show by listening to the episode on Tony Hawk that Dave was a guest on. And another great one would be the episode on shredder's revenge that we did ah tmn t shredder's revenge on which Eric was a guest along with another friend of the show friend of all of our shows. Mikey Tabletop I think those are 2 great ones. We've also got some vinyl fantasy content. No sixteen.

01:49:45.43
Dave
Oh yeah.

01:49:45.47
Eric Gess
When.

01:49:53.10
Rick
But we do have some other stuff I recommend checking those out too.

01:49:56.40
Dave
Yeah, absolutely you've got episode. You had a solo episode on pixel project radio. Ah about final fantasy ten two that convinced me that yes actually I should go back and play that. So I recommend people check that out and Eric on the unlockables has an entire episode about. What is final fantasy the series that keeps changing trying to nail down some of the key through lines throughout that series. I.

01:50:23.99
Eric Gess
Spoiler Alert We arrived at no conclusion. Ah.

01:50:28.17
Rick
Um, Eric's also got a really good solo essay on final fantasy sixteen like not for not for nothing but he does.

01:50:31.70
Eric Gess
Um, stop stop.

01:50:32.71
Dave
Yeah I skipped that because I didn't want to hear your opinions before we did this this episode but tomorrow when I'm ah when I'm at work I can finally listen to it that's right, but it's actually it's a 5 second podcast. It just Dave's full of shit.

01:50:42.73
Eric Gess
It's just my whole episode is just don't listen to Dave listen to me. Ah.

01:50:50.49
Dave
And but the highest of recommendations for everyone to check out pixel project radio and the unlockables. There's a reason I keep inviting both of these guys back on the show for many many guest appearances because they're good at what they do, you'll find links down in the show notes for both of those shows and again. As I always say I'm about to talk about myself for a minute now. So I recommend kind of like tuning me out and yeah going down and checking out pixel project radio and the unlockables. So. Ah, for tales from the backlog I would love to have more people join the discord server come and join the conversation about 16 as you know there are lots of people in the server who played it this seems to be a game that inspires big opinions so come on in and chat about it this week ah we would love to have you. There's an invite link down in the show notes also down in the show notes is a link to the Patreon where you can support monetarily if that is how you would like to show support to your favorite podcasters named Dave Patreon Dot Com slash Realdave Jackson is the place. All patrons get the ability to vote in polls for what games I play on the show. Ah, they get some bonus episodes and then as the tears go up, you get more and more stuff. So I recommend checking that out and as always maybe as you're listening to the music before the spoiler break or as you're finding your next podcast if you want to dip out and avoid the spoilers go leave a rating and review.

01:52:18.50
Dave
If you're listening on Apple Podcasts Spotify or podcast addict for tales from the backlog. The unlockables and pixel project radio. That's right I know it's a big ask. But do it for all 3 of us. It helps us get pushed up in the search results that helps people find the shows I also do another show.

01:52:34.30
Eric Gess
If I can make 1 big if I can make 1 big recommend ah sign up for the the tales from backlog Patreon because if you do at the highest level you are invited on the annual tales from the backlog cruise that is fully paid for by Dave so I highly recommend signing up for the Patreon.

01:52:50.20
Dave
They're they're shutting down the cruise this year there are too many health code violations last year. yeah yeah I I evaded for as long as I could but they caught me now never found him. Um.

01:52:52.80
Eric Gess
Oh Damn. Ah. We never found that one guy. Unfortunately.

01:53:03.43
Dave
The the last thing I promise this is the last thing I do another podcast. It's called a top 3 podcast and it is top 3 lists and drafts of fun and goofy topics. It's more of a comedy show if you want to hear me talk about things that are not video games. That's the place. So with all that being said, we're gonna take a break. When we come back the spoilers began for final fantasy 16  


Okay I'm back with Rick and Eric and we're talking full spoilers for final fantasy 16


01:54:47.22
Dave
This spoiler section will begin with things that do not happen right at the beginning but this spoiler section is not a walk in chronological order through the stories. So if you don't want to be spoiled on the entire thing I recommend you leave go maybe go play the game or yeah, just go. Go listen to something else. go go on get um I didn't say in the beginning because I do think this is a big spoiler even though it's like 2 hours into the game but Joshua's death really really hooked me. Um, at the beginning the kind of conclusion of the demo the way that that was the way the demo ended. With Joshua dying under mysterious circumstances again game of Thrones episode 1 right? Brand gets kicked out of the window. That's how episode 1 ends. You're like what the fuck when is episode 2 that's how I felt.

01:55:39.74
Eric Gess
Yeah, think we all I think we all kind of play the demo around the same time when it came out and it seemed to me like we all like arrived at that point around the same time because I remember when we cleared that demo like everybody kind of jumped in Discord and we are messing each other and be like holy shit. Did you just play that that intro and yeah it sets up this.

01:55:59.51
Eric Gess
Ultimately, you come to find out that that clive is is efreed. It's very clear that that's what's going on and and then he kills his brother Joshua there's this cinematic fight between ifret and the phoenix ending with the very very brutal murder of Joshua as as the phoenix and I think that kind of all took us like like. People have died in final fantasy before but I think in terms of like brutal final fantasy deaths. That's probably 1 of the one of the top ones for sure and that hooked I remember everybody jumped into discord and and we're talking with everybody. We're like oh my god like we cannot this is setting up a game that could be.

01:56:24.34
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

01:56:35.59
Eric Gess
Incredible and we were all so hooked and we you said it at the top of the episode that that demo is probably one of the the best demos that's ever been put out in terms of hooking people for the rest of the game.

01:56:48.48
Rick
Yeah, they definitely put their best foot forward with that demo I think the only other thing they maybe could have put in as a demo would be the Titan fight. Um, but I think it was way smarter to do what they did because save progress carries over and you know time.

01:56:50.10
Dave
Yes.

01:57:05.41
Rick
Time as a resource the most limited 1 In fact, so I was really appreciative that I didn't have to replay those 2 hours as great as they were all over again.

01:57:12.30
Dave
Did you guys think that Joshua was dead dead or did you think he was coming back.

01:57:17.99
Rick
No I I don't mean to jump in Eric but like I knew they were going to bring him back. It was like I just expect it anymore like and I'm not I'm not necessarily saying that I wish he would have they would have just killed him off but like. Just seems to be a trend anymore like they kill somebody off for the emotions and then bring them back for the emotions like man I don't know have some guts like like take take some chances hurt hurt your readers and viewers and players feelings. It's okay.

01:57:51.00
Eric Gess
Right.

01:57:53.25
Dave
It's a lesson. They didn't learn from game of thrones like important characters die very early on in the run of game of thrones and they never fucking come back. They're dead and you have to just deal with the fact that they're gone I will say that. Again, we're going to talk this up another tally on the side of Dave did not see this coming that Joshua was coming back I thought he was dead and then when he came back I was um, like very surprised you get hints way before they reunite that it's him. That's back right? but. I didn't expect it. We'll say that.

01:58:29.31
Eric Gess
I Think in terms of the symbology right? He's the Phoenix We probably should have seen it coming I didn't either just because the death was so shocking and we should have expected. They didn't take the lesson from game of thrones but they they sure took it from Dragon ball and they had the dragon balls ready to bring him back. So um, that that.

01:58:37.74
Dave
Yeah.

01:58:49.27
Eric Gess
Again I can't so understate how like brutal that scene is so and so brutal I thought it was the point where I was like and it kind of made sense too because as Joshua's shieldbearer ah clive. Got a part of his power as the phoenix that's what that's your first icon you and like that's what he was able to use and I was like. Oh well clive is going to take the power of the phoenix now because Joshua is dead and that was kind of and it was just so shocking that I didn't ever conceive that he would become alive again because in all the marketing material. We only ever saw Joshua as a little kid and I'm like that makes sense now he doesn't get any further than a little kid because he's he's fucking dead.

01:59:28.34
Eric Gess
So yeah, did not see it coming.

01:59:28.46
Dave
Man He's the Phoenix Of course he comes back I didn't even think of that. That's how.

01:59:33.61
Eric Gess
I didn't I didn't until I watched a video on it and I was like of course it makes sense right.

01:59:38.77
Rick
Well that plus the the box art like it features ifrit and the Phoenix So prominently I was like you know he's going to come back I mean I didn't know that he was going to come back as like an ally because they're fighting on the box art or least on the the deluxe box that so I was like you know, maybe.

01:59:40.34
Dave
Ah.

01:59:58.39
Rick
I don't know. But yeah I I kind of figured the Phoenix was a pretty big giveaway.

02:00:03.49
Dave
The second part of that question did you like because they kind of obscure the fact that it was clive doing it during those opening hours when Joshua dies and that's like a big reveal later that clive has to click the 2 thumbsticks to accept the truth.

02:00:21.10
Eric Gess
Accept the truth. Ah.

02:00:22.79
Dave
Which you there's a line later that I know Rick was like come the fuck on later much later in the game. But this part this was the other one. Yeah, the the one later I was like I was like that's kind of cool. It's stupid. But it's kind of cool in this one I was like come on.

02:00:29.10
Rick
Um, well that one and this one too. These are both stinkers. Yeah.

02:00:41.33
Dave
Click the sticks to accept the truth. Really? yeah yeah, exact this is clive exactly this is this is the interactive medium of video games you the player have to click the sticks to accept the truth.

02:00:43.67
Rick
That's I love that it's a button prompt. You got to do it like you can't accept the truth If you don't click.

02:00:50.37
Eric Gess
They want you as the player to accept the truth as well. Ah.

02:01:00.22
Dave
Um, did you guys see this coming that it was clive.

02:01:03.46
Rick
Um, well they kind of promoted like Clive As E Freet threw outt all the promotional materials. So I I mean I just went into it knowing that that that was clive what what threw me in the demo is we get that alternate po o v when it's happening.

02:01:11.84
Dave
Okay.

02:01:20.84
Rick
And we see ifret like tearing the phoenix is throat out and we hear Clive speaking and the PoV is is in I think it's in gray scale we hear Clive speaking so I was like ok somehow maybe clive isn't eret but then turns out he is i.

02:01:22.15
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

02:01:38.24
Rick
And I don't know man it was weird that they like kind of promoted it in a way that made everybody think clive was a free and then pretended to say no ah and then it turns out. Yeah, ah I it was weird.

02:01:52.44
Eric Gess
I think I'm on I was on the same page with David and so I think when I saw that shocking because again, you're right in in every single fricking piece of marketing. The head was clive shouting come to me Ifrit like every single like how many times did you see that clip.

02:02:11.41
Eric Gess
And then he turns into a freet so everyone's like oh yeah, obviously it's him but like when the brutal death of the Phoenix happened was kind of when I was throwing off all my expectations. So I was like oh okay, maybe they are kind of throwing us off off the trail here. Maybe they're trying to do pulling like a switch of Ro on us. But you know. Everyone has to accept the truth eventually. So.

02:02:30.88
Dave
Yeah, so I typically go dark on games that I want to play. Um I will not watch trailers especially not story trailers. So for this game. The. I watched the first reveal trailer that was at 1 of those big conferences and I was like okay this is the type of thing they're dealing with it's a darker world. We see what Clive and Joshua look like and then I didn't watch anything else. So this was surprising to me because like you said Rick they did take it to a different viewpoint where you see the fight. And it's it's very much you're not seeing it through Clive's eyes anymore. So that did work for me and I was forced to accept the truth accept the Truth Dave

02:03:15.49
Rick
Um, hey since we're in the spoiler section um was that ever explained like why it was an alternate P O V is it solely to make it a red herring or like because to this day I don't know what that was.

02:03:27.61
Dave
I don't I don't know whose point of view. It could have been so I don't know.

02:03:33.44
Rick
There were some people for a minute theorizing that it was tor goals because it was black and white. But I don't I don't really buy that. But.

02:03:37.74
Dave
Oh yeah.

02:03:39.72
Eric Gess
Is it probably was more of like a red herring thing probably try to just just throw you off not make it super obvious.

02:03:46.95
Dave
Yeah, so yada yada yada clive is joining up with Cid I mean I want to talk about the stuff that you're doing with sayd because I think this is like the coolest stuff in the game where things are happening and you you. You don't know what you're doing you don't know what if what you're doing is right when Cid puts you on this quest to destroy the mother crystals which seemed like really cool I was I was really into this um the quest to destroy them not knowing what would happen. Um. Cid kind of warns you that destroying the mother crystals will make bearers lives worse because people will stop I guess getting blessed with magic and people won't be born as bearers anymore they don't do anything with this concept which is disappointing but that whole time as you're going through. Breaking the crystals and people's lives are getting appreciably worse as you're doing this was really cool I like this a lot again early parts in the game before Cid dies.

02:04:51.80
Eric Gess
That's kind of where I found the parallel too to our world right? because people settle settle around these mother crystals and these mother crystals are the source of this power that make people's lives easier. They mine them for resources they use the crystal people that can't do magic. Use the mind crystals to like do magic and like perform everyday mundane tasks and you know only a small subset of the people like follow cid know that the mother crystals are actually draining the world and are the reason why the blight is happening right? so. The the main conflict there is like you're trying to destroy these things that are helpful but ultimately harming the world in long-term and get people to accept hey I know these luxuries are making your life easier but this is not good for the world overall and I just kind of saw that again. Our modern day struggle with. Trying to transition people away from technologies that hurt the planet and there's a lot of resistance there because people don't want to because that's been their way of life for the whole time. So I saw that parallel there and that kind of again that that story element like grabbed me but as we'll get to in a couple minutes in the spoiler section again once god comes into play. All that's kind of just like whatever out the window.

02:06:04.26
Rick
You know this kind of brings up something now that we're in the spoiler section and we're talking about some of these mother crystals and their effects on the world and etc. Um, this this kind of brings up the the atl and I I did a quick search in the dock just to make sure that you didn't have a section to this Dave and i. Don't think you do unless I missed it? Um, how do you How do we feel about the ato because I'm a I'm very conflicted and I remember in 13 ah, again, you know talking about how 13 was kind of criticized it was because it. Dumped so many of these proper nouns concepts and ideas that it expected you to go in to the data log to read about them and now this is doing the same thing and I I hear it getting praised a lot but I'm not I'm not convinced that I like it. I'm not sure I what do you think.

02:07:01.49
Dave
Um, yeah I had meant to like bring it up I think Eric brought it up several times and kind of like brushed on what it is so I didn't feel the need to like go into it deeper in the the non-s spoiler part lord knows we talked enough before the spoiler break. But um. I appreciated the fact that it's an easy way to get information about who is on the screen right now because if that's a criticism that was leveled at game of thrones because that has so many characters so many important characters that for new people they do throw a ton of people that are important at you and. Part of the adjustment to that show is just who the fuck are these people and why should I care so the fact that that's there helps you you know this person's on screen. They look important who are they and I can just press one button see oh they're the king of this country. Okay I get it so I like that. Um. Being said I didn't read it a whole lot because once I knew that they were the king of that country. That's all the information it turned out I needed to know because a lot of those secondary characters are nothing more than their titles.

02:08:07.00
Rick
You know that that reminds me too. Um, you know you know thinking about 1313 you couldn't look at this stuff midscene you had to go and look at it in the menu afterwards. Um and it was a lot of reading in this one you can look at it midsceen. But it's still a fair amount of reading. I'm thinking to back to pentiment and Eric I don't think you've played this but Dave I know you have um, they have a similar thing where you can you know press select to see a person that they're talking about or a historical event and what I love about it is if it's a person. It just shows you their portrait.

02:08:40.61
Dave
Who.

02:08:43.10
Rick
Like just reminding you who they are without like disrupting the flow too much I don't know because that's 1 thing that I realized here like I was grateful to have the resources so I could remember like oh okay, that's what this event is or ah is this the duchy or is this the duchy I can't remember okay there we go. Ah, but it did break up the flow a lot for me.

02:09:01.72
Dave
Part part of it too is like and this kind of like gets us back on the story in the spoiler section. There's a lot of conversations between like but let's say the king of this country and the dominant that's there and like the queen and then there's some other there. Sun or something like that and I think you brought this up someone brought this up in the non-s spoililer part but this is a story about what clive is doing and all of these other political machinations that are happening ultimately don't matter nothing of importance comes from. The actions of really anybody except for the family with bahamed and it's only because Ultima's involved with what they're doing but like the movements of 1 country against another and you get these like cut scenenes like. Between big story parts. They take you to this like here's what's going on in the state of the world sections and I was like I don't care which army is moving into which section because it will never affect what's going on in the real story of the game.

02:10:07.46
Eric Gess
So you guys know me I'm a noted lore junkie. That's why my kingdom heart series is already 20 hours long so I love the ability to just be able to like pause the game and get more info on any scene that was happening at all and it's not just the same info every time. So like anytime there's a development in the story.

02:10:27.21
Eric Gess
That character's like file will be updated with the relevant story information up until that point so especially like you talked about the the early fight scene between titan and shiva I think it was and there was also like a scene before that where there were like. 8 people in this room and barnabas was there and you don't know what he's doing and Benedict was there and titan was there so like 3 or 4 different players from like 4 different kingdoms were there and you just have like no idea what's going on. They throw them all at you right away. They don't stop to explain anything they're using words like dominate. You're like what does that mean? so. I found myself like every 3 minutes during a cutscene like pausing to see if there's any like updated lore and I think that allowed me to appreciate the world. A little bit more I know it's not everyone's cup of tea and I think it gave me even more appreciation for that world and even more like man. There really is like a lot of like background lore built into this world and if they would have stuck with that for more parts of the game and flesh it out more I think it would have been a real home run.

02:11:24.95
Rick
Sorry I didn't mean to get us to off track.

02:11:27.24
Eric Gess
No I love active time lore I'm a lore junkie so I'll take more of that anytime I can get it.

02:11:29.19
Dave
Oh it's okay it's it's no it's okay because like what it ultimately ties into with like my opinion about this kind of ah. Realw worldld stakes or realw world story at the beginning when you're destroying the mother crystals like you you can use the active lore and those interstitial kind of catchup cut scenes to let you know like which country is moving where because you know, um. The mother crystals are like creating the blight by draining life force or some shit from the world if I understand that right? But when you break them other crystals. It doesn't solve. It. The blight actually gets worse as you keep breaking mother crystals. So. They tell you what's going on like because the blight is spreading into this country here is how they're reacting now they're invading this country because their homeland is becoming you know blighted. But I like. That knowledge that people are being affected by what you're doing is only important at that surface level I think I like the fact when they go they're invading this country now. What happens I don't know because I'm never going to go there and see it. It doesn't affect. Clive's story because.

02:12:53.49
Dave
We're we're only following clive and I think that's like particularly relevant in this early half of the game when you're still dealing with all the real-world players but like the stuff that everyone else is doing is functionally irrelevant. It's all about what clive is doing people just move as a result of what clive does I do think that that's cool that as you're breaking mother crystals you are seeing the consequences of that like you are not saving. People's lives in the immediate by doing this and people are rightfully mad at you. Um I think after you. Break the first mother crystal you meet a bunch of bearers that are directly affected by it. They're like bro you made our lives so much worse the fuck's wrong with you and I thought that was a cool touch. Unfortunately, just a touch.

02:13:46.58
Eric Gess
I Would agree.

02:13:50.63
Rick
Yeah, yeah, well said.

02:13:52.52
Dave
Um, okay, thank you? Um, what I mentioned that Cid dies this is a big moment in the game Cid dies during a a fight during a kind of breaking of a mother crystal. Um, after he dies clive takes on the moniker of Cid to my knowledge. This is the only time Cid has ever been a title and not like the name of a character in the series. Um, and I thought it's an interesting concept that like. Cid and what Cid is working for is not just like one person. Um and actually in this game Cid is doing more than most final fantasy games. Cid is just an old man in final fantasy 6 Cid is the pilot of a ship in final fantasy ten. They don't. There's there's not a whole lot to them as people. Um I think that drastically like reducing the party size giving Cid a lot more character and then having him die and that title be passed on is an interesting thing that this game does.

02:15:00.63
Eric Gess
And let me ask you guys. This did you guys see Cid's death coming that obvious to everybody.

02:15:06.48
Dave
Now I mean I never see anything coming So no.

02:15:11.21
Rick
I knew they were going to do that to somebody I wasn't sure like who it would be but you know you've always got to kill off 1 of the main cast because you know emotions.

02:15:21.88
Eric Gess
Yeah, absolutely I think I saw I think I knew something was going to happen because the interesting thing about Cid's character. Is you find out that he's the dominant of of of funder or he's he's Ramuh's dominant or ramuh or however, you however, you want to say I don't know I've always said Rama but. And anytime he uses that power. He's like coughing up blood so you obviously see like the negative effects of like relying on that power too much which I also think which I also think is like a really interesting wrinkle into into the world that doesn't really get explained on much more I mean we talk about how like once the bears use too much magic. They petrify.

02:15:48.40
Rick
Um, oh right.

02:15:58.65
Eric Gess
But that gets touched on like very late in the game and doesn't really, it's just kind of like one we like oh yeah, by the way if you use much magic this happens whereas like sit is straight up coughing up blood every time he like uses lightning. Um, so I figured something would happen to him but I think it's.

02:16:03.47
Dave
Yeah.

02:16:14.27
Eric Gess
It it serves to propel Clive's character for which is like what everything does in this game right? that and that ultimately propels him to like devoting himself to Cid's cause yeah.

02:16:20.60
Dave
Yeah, it's it's it's like a hero's journey thing clive Ah Cid is the mentor and then eventually clive has to leave the ah leave the mentor and do it by himself and it's.

02:16:30.92
Eric Gess
Right.

02:16:35.17
Dave
I guess it should have been predictable I'm just extremely not ever paying attention enough to find a twist coming or like I don't I don't ever see them coming. Um I'm glad you brought up the bearer's curse because I wanted to talk about this. This was a cool wrinkle that they introduced the fact that bearers turn to stone. It is a horrifyingly painful. Death. Um, that apparently there's nothing you can do to like soothethem. They just they just die in the most painful way possible. Um, they kind of introduce that like this is going to happen to Cid. But then he dies before it can ever become like a real point of conflict in his story. And then 30 hours go by without mention of the bearer's curse even though you're constantly using magic and ah meeting I mean same thing with Jill Jill's with you. She's using magic and then at the very end. It's like oh. Clive's arm turns to stone as he tries to you know Summon Magic one final time big missed opportunity I think for some real stakes to what's happening.

02:17:40.30
Eric Gess
Um, yeah I agree.

02:17:42.50
Rick
Um, I thought for a long time that um, you know Jill is always wearing a glove a long glove I for a long time thought that she was already ah atrophying and that was gonna be a plot point. But then we see see her naked on a beach and we learn that that's not the case.

02:17:57.66
Dave
Yeah, what did you guys think of that now. Yeah, now that it's now that it's come up this also completely blind sighted me the fact that they would get together.

02:17:58.74
Eric Gess
The scene everybody was waiting for.

02:18:09.98
Rick
Wait really.

02:18:11.32
Eric Gess
Um, I thought yeah I felt like they kind of been setting it up from from the start for sure I like like do it? Yeah yeah.

02:18:14.70
Dave
I mean.

02:18:15.76
Rick
Or do you mean, get together or like get together.

02:18:20.93
Dave
Both both completely blindsided me um the the fact that like they've known each other for a long time is the most connection I felt like they had. I didn't feel like there was chemistry between the 2 of them Jill they just they reunited they were happy to see each other but I didn't detect any hint of budding romance between the two. It's not like Titus and una or something like that.

02:18:51.40
Rick
I think it might come back to you. They just kind of wrote Jill's character to be in total subservience to clive in not like not not like subservient like a like a maid or a slave or something but like like her whole character is just I want what's best for clive because.

02:18:57.60
Dave
Yeah.

02:19:11.30
Rick
That's what clive wants and I like Clive so I I don't know I just kind of figured sooner or later it was going to happen. Yeah.

02:19:16.40
Eric Gess
And 1 interesting thing about their relationship too is that we talk about them being naked on on the beach and you know finally having that moment which you know I think it's I think it's a beautiful moment and you know they're obviously going for more and moreture tones they want to show that it's not the first time they've shown people doing it in this game. We've got we got a couple scenes of. Of of that happening. So um, but I just you the most shocking thing to me is after we have Cid's death we have a 5 year time skip right and if they had like feelings for each other and they are working alongside each other for like those 5 years you figured like something would have happened already ah and not just been like.

02:19:52.68
Rick
Um, yes.

02:19:55.44
Eric Gess
Like friend zone for 5 years like I've I've been friend zone before but I've never stayed in the friend zone for 5 years that's ah that's a long time. Ah.

02:20:02.98
Rick
That's a really good point. They come back after 5 years and they're still doing this kind of like will they won't say thing and it's just it's really hard to believe that their relationship as people wouldn't have evolved in 5 years they're still at the exact same place.

02:20:05.54
Eric Gess
Um, yeah.

02:20:14.69
Eric Gess
It's especially they did have feelings for each other. So yeah I agree interesting.

02:20:16.54
Dave
Yeah I didn't detect any hint of will they won't they with Jill and clive. It was just they were in scenes together but like I yeah yeah, I've I've I've said what I need to say um. I think Rick you're right? it it is it is the fact that like Jill aside from one scene where she kind of goes ah fucking medieval on the person who was like tormenting her before aside from that she doesn't do much. And she doesn't get the spotlight she we never really see what's going on in her head. She's very quiet in a lot of scenes. Um, like you said, never any objection to anything that's going on. She's just again sports term a warm body to fill a role. So.

02:21:10.37
Dave
Um, after ah after Jill passes on her icon to clive. Also there's a weird scene where Joshua blows up on clive for like taking advantage of her really fucking stupid made no sense at all.

02:21:20.56
Eric Gess
And and the reason they kind of sideline her towards the end and and I agree with you I'm a little bit higher on Jill just because she does have that like they go to the iron kingdom where she was captured and and when they found out that she was shiva and they they kind of abused her and the people of the iron kingdom are very like fanatical and they abuse their dominance. And so when they go there to destroy the mother crystal she does kind of get like there's this arc there where she like tells Clive I have to confront my past trauma on night. They give her the time and the ability to do that which I was like that's really cool because we just went through that whole arc with Clive and he got to accept the truth. So like Jill should get to accept the truth. That's only fair, right. And then it kind of does fall off from there where she basically gets benched at the end for Clive Dion and Joshua to like go save the day and have like a boys trip where I was like she was so important to like Clive's person like she should have been there in the end with with him and when she does when he clive does take her icon powers right. Like it's implied that she can't use them anymore like clive took them from her but we have instances where when clive fought ah Hugo Kuka I think he took his power before he killed them and he was still able to use his icon powers and same thing with with dion when he fought bahamit.

02:22:36.49
Eric Gess
He took Bahamas's powers but Dion was still able to transform later in the game. So. It's like that whole thing I wasn't super consistent where it's like well why would Jill be the only one that is not able to use her icon powers and same thing with benedictta when he took garuda from her and then she transformed and freaked out so it's like. Yeah, it wasn't a lot of consistency there in terms of like how that worked with Clive's powers except that he was Methos Methos ah

02:22:59.68
Dave
Mute this yeah, all told I think that I think the Jill is one of the weakest main player characters in a final fantasy game that I've played that has you know main players that are supposed to have good characterization I'm not. Not talking about your party in final fantasy one or something like that. But.

02:23:19.51
Rick
We can at least say she's still better than a parent that's something I guess who hard disagree. Oh I.

02:23:22.89
Dave
Yes, yes, and probably better than waka If we're making a tear list. How racist is still where where does she land on that spectrum I know I know I just.

02:23:35.57
Eric Gess
Um, is she she higher or lower than Amarand is the question. Yeah yeah.

02:23:38.18
Rick
He's still a good character though. Oh Joe yeah oh she's definitely higher.

02:23:43.14
Dave
She's got to be higher.

02:23:49.39
Dave
Ah, anyway, um I think the last part about like this this kind of low level plot that I think is really great is after you destroy the last crystal you're you're kind of wondering like what's going to happen.

02:24:05.75
Dave
Are things actually going to get better and they get way fucking worse after you destroy the last crystal and I kind of mentioned this before but um, the blight gets much worse. Magic is like gone people's lives are like. But I get the feeling that there's a bunch of people who like can't make a fire anymore because they don't have magic crystals and shit like that. Um, but the game from a color perspective gets darker and like the color drains out of the world and the music gets a lot more somber and I think like. This was a really cool artistic choice that really like hammers home like you have taken. People's lives. People's livelihoods away from them and you talk to people and you talk to people for a little bit and see how bad their lives are. Ah, you eventually stop caring about the lives of the people because you have to deal with mithos but visually and from a music perspective I think it it does a lot of the work to to sell that.

02:25:08.77
Eric Gess
Similar thing in 2 and like final fantacy 9 when you're approaching the climax of that game like the world becomes covered and miss again and even like the map is more foggy. The music's more somber so does that similar kind of not exactly the same It's not a 1 to 1 but no I agree with you? Yeah, but after you destroy the last mother crystal and you're like at the conclusion of the game like. I would genuinely like not want to be outsider even in that world because it just looks like it's like it sucks like just like when if you're a normal person in the world and the and the color shade turns that's when you're just like oh things are not great right now.

02:25:44.82
Dave
I wonder like so if if this like encroachment of the blight and you destroying the mother crystals and like causing short term inconvenience to people in order to help the world basically is what you believe is going to happen. Um, you know if we're making that an analog to global warming and you know the the ask of people because that's who gets asked to and I am will make it political. Not that this is controversial but like the people who can make change as far as global warming goes are not the people who are being asked to make change. Ah, they put that shit on all of us to say like yeah, Dave the fact that you run your air conditioner four months out of the year that's that's the reason it's not Taylor Swift's private jet and shit like that. Um I do recycle my fucking water bottles. They throw them in the dump with all the rest of the trash because the city of Columbus is is a.

02:26:33.44
Eric Gess
You don't recycle your water bottles Dave ah.

02:26:42.20
Dave
Piece of shit anyway, the ah this is a ah thing they could have done so much with this because I do think this is an analog that they were going for the fact that they're asking people to make have. They're asking people to endure short term inconvenience to better the world and clive is like the the face of you know, taking all the shit from the people just saying like you have to trust me this will be worth it and then it's not worth it. It makes the world way worse and then it's just they don't. Do it clive never faces that you don't see how anyone faces it after you beat Ultima and save the save the world. Basically you never see the result of what you did you never see how people are going to live their lives after all of this. I don't even know if he did make things better.

02:27:37.55
Eric Gess
In turn we can get to that in a second because I think that ties into the end and you can interpret the end in two ways. Really I think so um, but yeah, just to kind of tie us along since we are talking about the big bad Ultima. What did you guys into in terms of like the pantheon of final fantasy villains. How did you guys feel about. Ultima.

02:27:57.00
Dave
Actually before we get there. Rick do you have anything about the um, the kind of non-closure about like that making the world worse and never seeing how people go because then we'll move on to Ultima if you do and if not. We'll just cut this and answer the question.

02:28:19.36
Rick
Um I I I don't know I I do wish that we got to see more of those consequences but I'm I got to be honest at that point in the story I was I was kind of checked out. So.

02:28:34.93
Rick
And I feel bad for saying that. But yeah I do wish that we could have seen more.

02:28:39.43
Dave
I Yeah yeah and I was hoping that we would go back and see more of this stuff because I thought that this is really interesting when you know we're making people's lives worse but it all goes out the window. Once.

02:28:39.59
Eric Gess
At that We don't care at that point because we're trying trying to kill God Nothing The people don't matter.

02:28:58.58
Dave
Ultima really makes an appearance and um I don't know how you guys feel ultima is an interchangeable jrpg villain to me. There's there's nothing about Ultima that tells me that it couldn't have been swapped out of this game and replaced with another. Look alike with the same motivations that I've seen in several other stories like this and that's why this was. That's why this increase in scope was so unsatisfying is because like I've played games with an ultima figure before and. Frankly in a lot of other games. They were more interesting than Ultima is.

02:29:41.25
Rick
I yeah I I kind of wish that they would have just stuck with um oh shoot. What's her name Annabelle Annabella Clive's mom I don't remember which one her name is.

02:29:47.87
Eric Gess
Um, yeah class Mom Yeah Cu yeah cause she's sucked.

02:29:50.55
Dave
Um, oh okay, yeah yeah.

02:29:56.60
Rick
Yeah, yeah, I Really thought that they were going to lean on to her to be like a political enemy and drive the force Even if there was like ah some kind of a higher being. You know they were setting her up to be a cipher for it or a vessel for it. Ah, but that's not really the case I think I think where it kind of just ended was she happened.

02:30:00.15
Dave
Right.

02:30:16.60
Rick
To be a horrible person and at 1 point ultimate took advantage of that I think Ultima is super forgettable of not not a compelling villain at all.

02:30:21.26
Dave
Yeah, yeah, and clive's mom like you said could have been the source of a lot of conflict and conversation and reflection like moments between clive and Joshua because like. They properly reunite they get to give each other a hug and then like 5 minutes later their mom realizes that she's been a total piece of shit for no real reason and she kills herself and no one ever talks about it again.

02:30:49.44
Rick
Well somebody brought up a really cool point on that it's it's that like she was running all this time and she she fundamentally cannot admit that she was wrong. So when when she's faced with the proof that that she ah that that she is wrong. She rather than admit it she. You know she takes her own life. Um, kind of interesting that whole scene like brought out a new dynamic where she was like why it should have been you. Why wasn't it you she was so bitter and resentful for reasons that we didn't know you know like like she wanted the dominant of the phoenix to be with Clive.

02:31:10.51
Dave
Yeah, um.

02:31:27.29
Rick
Because Joshua was kind of like a snivelling little boy and Clive was the one that was getting all of the the war honors and that opened up a yes. Well yeah, that that too so it opened up this whole new picture and it's just never explored.

02:31:32.96
Dave
Clive was the first born in this like medieval fantasy thing. Yeah.

02:31:33.10
Eric Gess
Um, yeah.

02:31:41.57
Dave
You saying that made me laugh because I just remembered the movie walk hard if you guys have ever seen that where they're just like wrong kid died.

02:31:46.56
Rick
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:31:48.41
Eric Gess
Ah, yeah, so what you're saying is that before she killed there in maybe she could have avoided it killing herself if she just accepted the truth. Yeah, she didn't have that button pushed though she didn't get that opportunity. Ah, ah so no in terms of.

02:31:55.75
Dave
Yeah, it No, she's not holding a controller. Yeah.

02:31:57.59
Rick
Yeah, exactly.

02:32:07.20
Eric Gess
I think yeah in in classic final fantasy kind of jrpg fashion art. We. We come to the point where we discover that Ultima is really the 1 kind of pulling the strings and I wouldn't quote unquote call him god right? But he is some kind of like extra dimensional being which is he was essentially responsible for the creation of. This world and kind of everything that's going on in it and his main motivation is like he's trying to restore the world to what it formally was because his race of people like destroyed it that was based on my understanding. But yeah in terms of like his delivery and his motivations and stuff like. When you stackck him up against the final fantasy greats like like kefka and and setph roth and um and not high as how he thought of I think I think Kuja is a very compelling villain ah with his motivations like. Those are all feel like they're characters that have like flaws and and reasons and motivations and utima just feels like this very like big bad like kind of boogie man like I must restore the world and you are my vessel and like that's really his only motivation. So I think final fantasy games are better when they have a really really compelling Bill and that has motivation and this is. Ultima doesn't he doesn't fit the bill. Really.

02:33:20.64
Dave
And so like if anyone's listening along and they they don't know what's going on with ultima ultima once Clive. Um as I understand it clive has the ability to be to take in the power of all of the icons which is not something that most people can do so clive makes this perfect vessel. For ultima to that's where I kind of lost attention I stopped really caring. Um, either of you guys remember like what is it about No no. What is it that Ultima hopes to achieve by using clive as a vessel.

02:34:01.16
Rick
Well, all ultimatema ultimately all ultimate is that's a mouthful ultimate ultimately, um, you know the ultimatema that we see is just one of many of of himself. That's why they refer to that's why he refers to himself collectively like we. Um, and we can we see that at the end when one of the Ultimas burst us out of Joshua's chest like alien style. Um, so my understanding was that cly he had to pull the strings to get clive to power up absorb all of the icons so that all of the Ultimas could return. Together and take clive and just sort of turn into an ultimate being. That's I that's as far I think that's right? so.

02:34:45.37
Eric Gess
I think is because he was able to also Channel all the power of the icons that they needed that power to like cast whatever spell he was going to cast like reset the world and and save it. Basically I think that was kind of what the point was but it's not. It's not described very well.

02:34:57.14
Rick
Um, oh right? yes.

02:34:57.50
Dave
Yeah, right? That's right because that's right because this this second part this higher scope part. Um I think makes an attempt to like take the theme of the earlier stuff with the bearers and The. The the theme of free will versus like a determined fate and graduate that up to these bigger stakes like we're taking that same thing except now it's not the bearers who are hoping to be given the choice to live their lives the way they want to now we're. Expanding it to like this world of Valistthea has free will and therefore you can't make these decisions for us and reset this world and stuff and it's just it's just not interesting at this much bigger scale because we've all been here so many times before and altibut.

02:35:46.79
Eric Gess
Well if you think about it.

02:35:50.18
Dave
Ah, ultimate as a character does not have the magnetic personality that I think it would take for me to care more about what Ultima wants the way they they talk super monotone. Um, all you very matter of fact and stuff like that. It's what makes like. Sepharroth and kefka and fuck even seymour more compelling as villains because like you know you feel like you you can relate to them a little bit but Ultima is just this monotone deity figure. Um. Yes, we're going to reset the world. None of your puny lives matter that stuff the same stuff that was at that lower scale and it's just at the bigger scale I just don't care anymore again because we've been here.

02:36:38.71
Eric Gess
What could I could tell you Dave that you know Ultima ultimately being an extra dimensional being that could like step outside the dimensions of the world right? Remember what other game we played this year that had extra dimensional beings outside the world that were interfering in the various final fantasy worlds correct.

02:36:56.93
Dave
That's right? Yeah so Jack DlC incoming

02:36:58.20
Eric Gess
Stranger paradise so it could be are they setting us up like I said to unite all of these square enix universes into this one shared multiverse where we kind of get can we get the avengers of final fantasy Can we get Jack and sora on the same team. Can it happen. This kind of just backs up. My theory is the same type of thing and I I'm curious to how many versions of Ultimo there were because they were there 1 version for like each final fantasy world I'd have to go back and count. But there's a lot of interesting stuff there. Oh interest so one for yeah.

02:37:28.80
Rick
There were 16 I think because I I remember it being like 16 like oh like the game but you see them all at the maybe maybe that second half of the game is where they start to get really sloppy with all of the.

02:37:37.13
Eric Gess
So one for each trying to fantasy world. Interesting.

02:37:48.40
Rick
Ah, like the allegories that they're trying to add into like with the methos and logos. And yeah I don't know I It really doesn't work I am o.

02:37:59.43
Dave
Um, can you enlighten a little bit about like what are they attempting like I did not do the research of what those words mean about like yeah, what? what are they trying or what are they alluding to.

02:38:08.45
Rick
Um, yes I so.

02:38:16.56
Rick
So so I'll preface by saying if somebody is more ah, if somebody knows more about these concepts than I do and you think that I'm just not getting something please tell me because that very well could be the case but um, mythos and logos are they were premodern ways of thought. Where Methos is myth right? it it ah seeks to reveal truths about the universe and logos was the more logical way of thinking seeking to expand knowledge and these weren't seen as. Ah, in conflict they were seen as complementary it not dissimilar to like the Yin and the yang right? The the universal balance of the masculine. The feminine feminine the good and the evil um interestingly logos was also how Christ was referred to. In the by in some areas of the bible interesting even still is we have this motif of the phoenix that rises from the ashes in Joshua Joshua is a derivation of the name Yeshua which is god ah. So we have all of these things playing together and ultimately what I think it comes down to is. It's more They're just referencing these things and they're not actually using them in a way that supports any kind of grand narrative or thematic idea. Um, which is fine like other games reference things like this but this is a.

02:39:41.66
Rick
Focus like a heavy focus and for a heavy focus to be like a wink at the player. Um I I just don't like that and there are arguments to be to be made here right? You could say well you know when he accepts the truth. You know he's accepting that he's both mithos and locos like working together in harmony maybe but. You know when at the very end we and we should say logos is introduced literally within the last hour of the game. Um, everybody's calling Clive Metos all throughout Clive is the one that is the revealing powers revealing truth of the universe. Okay, fine. Whatever. Um, ultimately at the very end when Clive is demonstrating his free will ah says oh this isn't methos. This is logos and now suddenly we're it's making it seem like logos is overpowering methos which is like saying oh the Yang is overpowering the the yin it just it doesn't make sense. You know it's I just I and again I could be missing something and if somebody knows about this more than me, please tell me because I'm interested in learning this because there there are religious allegories and references and symbols in everything whether you believe them or or not and I want to know but like to me this just. It just doesn't feel like it's jelling. It. It feels like something that I would have done in like undergrad and like thrown a bunch of references into a story without really knowing the source material I don't know that's just I I am just a nobody with with a microphone.

02:41:15.52
Dave
A nobody who did the research at least because I I heard those names and I was like I don't care what the name methos where that comes from that is the name of this character.

02:41:28.13
Rick
I'm still perplexed as to why they pronounce it the way that they do.

02:41:31.51
Dave
Methos Mutos

02:41:32.33
Eric Gess
I don't think Barnabus's voice actor. Did it any any favors. So.

02:41:38.59
Rick
Yeah I I don't know that's just like my whole thing and then towards the end too like again we talked I I mentioned early on this was all about clive was finding his strength in his friends that was kind of why he was he absorbed Jill's power that's why he was talking about the importance of. Him and Joshua being reunited all of this like you know I'm I'm with my my people and then he just goes on to do it himself like I he should take and a page at a soras book step into step into sores. Big shoes.

02:42:03.94
Eric Gess
His his friends are not his power.

02:42:14.50
Dave
he he does um I mean they do have that stuff where he he and Joshua Combine powers to make the the Mega Phoenix whatever the fuck they they call it. Um.

02:42:24.97
Eric Gess
Which is super fucking cool. Ah.

02:42:26.44
Dave
Yeah, it's really cool that was one of those times when I was playing and I was like holy shit when you're fighting bahamut in space I was like this is awesome. The coolest this is what I want um but he does go in with Joshua Joshua um after Joshua dies I guess clive goes on by himself but they they do combine forces. But I think you are right like in the grand scheme of things. This is not a story about Clive and Joshua and Jill and the rest of the gang. It's a story about clive. Joshua helps out when he comes back but Joshua is like sickly having for what he can't use his powers the way everyone else can as much as he would like to so he sits out a lot of it and it's just kind of like a rotating cast of who's helping Clive this time. Um, we didn't talk about how tor goal is not helpful. That's the inclusion of like the toral commands in combat I know this a total side side thing here but they sucked they're really bad.

02:43:36.10
Dave
Set torgal on Auto and just watch him do little hamster wheel spins which was funny.

02:43:40.31
Rick
And yeah I'll be honest I threw that automatic torgal ring on and just kept it the whole game.

02:43:44.58
Dave
Yeah, yeah.

02:43:45.16
Eric Gess
But I mean you got to respect him staying by your side when you're literally transforming into elemental God So I mean like what other yes like he's like hey I'm here for you I don't care that we're fighting a mountain like whatever. Yes.

02:43:51.85
Rick
And he himself transforms into one too.

02:43:53.54
Dave
Man. Yeah.

02:43:59.48
Rick
His side Quest was really nice. Both of them.

02:44:01.16
Dave
Yep.

02:44:03.38
Eric Gess
It was.

02:44:05.82
Dave
There's the one side Quest where it's like what's wrong with torgal because he's not eating right? is that the one you're talking about. Yeah.

02:44:14.70
Rick
Well, that's the one where he just needs more meat because he's a growing boy. But then there's another one after that where you learn like the whole time that Clive ah was a way Torle was like at the places that they grew up like just waiting for him. He brought back all of Clive's memory mem.

02:44:14.64
Eric Gess
Yeah.

02:44:29.93
Rick
Jeez like I hate this word memorabilia. Um, it's it's just very touching kind of like a fries dog and Futurama like that kind of ah emotional hit.

02:44:34.46
Eric Gess
Oh.

02:44:34.86
Dave
Got you? Yeah I skipped that because I got I got burned by the the earlier one. It was like what's wrong with toral. There's something wrong with torl and it was like right after torel had done his transformation for the first time. Was like what's wrong with tor goal. You need to go find him a special bone and then you do it and he's fine and I was like giant waste of time I'm not doing any more of this.

02:44:59.86
Eric Gess
I think Dave too if I could just touch back on 1 thing and we can kind of wrap it up here because I'm sure we've gone a while here you know I think a lot of the criticisms we put towards this game are are founded but now that we're in the spoiler section I can go and you you just mentioned it.

02:45:16.67
Eric Gess
I Think this game peaked for me at that bahammet fight right? because like when I started that fight all my logical thought went out the window because I'm just like holy shit I'm fighting bahamut in space and this is like a fucking 20 minute fight and I'm like this is everything I could possibly ever want. This is like all my objective. Analysis and criticism went out the window because I'm just like this is why I play video games. It's the fucking fight bahammet in outer space after a long day at work like I'm not I'm not here for any of this other stuff like give me give me that and that was what cemented my love for this game So and we didn't even touch on it that much but like every single. Ah, yeah, Icon fight pretty much is at that level of Hype or just like they keep getting higher and higher. So if you want to like hang your hat on anything and like are looking for a reason to play his game like that alone bahammet in space is my is my sales pitch to you? yeah.

02:46:09.62
Dave
That was cool. Um I was I agree totally about that I was very disappointed that you don't get to fight Odin The Barnabas fight was a real letdown especially because you you fight him once and he kicks your ass in classic.

02:46:28.80
Dave
Jrpg fashion and then you fight him again, he never uses odin in the fight where you can actually fight against him and big disappointment. But I agree a lot of the other icon fights were great. Um to wrap this up basically at the end you beat Ultima because of course you do. I don't really um, like I said give me six months I won't remember anything about the ending against ultima. Um, the thing that I will remember is that clive dies at the end he uses all of his remaining power that bearer's curse comes back. And then Joshua also dies when altima bursts out of his chest like we said before um and then you find at the end. Um, there's a book called final fantasy. Oh also during the Ultima fight. There's the the line rick do you want to say the line.

02:47:23.21
Rick
I Should I Sure don't I Actually don't remember it completely.

02:47:28.29
Eric Gess
No I don't.

02:47:28.70
Dave
Ah, Eric do you remember it because I do now the only final the only fantasy is yours and it's your final one or something like that and what you're saying a 2 ultima at the end and in yeah.

02:47:38.58
Eric Gess
Roll credits for the entire 40 year series just roll it. Ah.

02:47:39.75
Rick
I I literally thought that was like a hard drive thing or like the onion or something I couldn't believe it was real. Well yeah I think the first time that I posted it and you were like ok that is lame but like it was kind of cool in the moment.

02:47:44.91
Dave
Yeah, oh did you see it before you came across it in the game.

02:47:57.10
Dave
Yeah, oh yeah, in the moment I was like okay but you know looking back on him like how fan servicey do you want to be and then.

02:47:59.46
Rick
I Thought it was fake there until you said that and then when you said that I was like oh my God is this real.

02:48:14.50
Dave
At the very end. There's a book called final fantasy that was written by Joshua how did he write a book I don't know.

02:48:22.48
Rick
There There are some people speculating that the whole story was just a book itself like is like ah a tale a fairy tale I don't yeah.

02:48:25.98
Eric Gess
Right? Like Adam Sandler and click like is a whole book.

02:48:26.83
Dave
Would it? yeah would would have been fine if it was presented as like a framing device for the story but they never showed anything that would suggest that before.

02:48:36.65
Eric Gess
Right? And the other 1 right? But the the other thing too. It's like we should probably suspect that Joshua probably survived that fight because he survived once before and he is the phoenix so I would assume that.

02:48:39.50
Rick
It can't touch the cinematic masterpiece of Adam Sandler's Magnum Opus click

02:48:55.37
Eric Gess
You know the prevailing theory is that he survived. He wrote the book and now these kids are living in this world where there's no magic and they're like rebuilding the world. So.

02:49:00.82
Dave
Yeah, you you can't sell me emotional deaths for a character if they're effectively immortal like but once again fool me once shame on me fool me twice. We we won't get fooled again.

02:49:18.23
Rick
I I did not expect George W Bush to make an appearance in this this episode but I love it.

02:49:23.58
Dave
Twice? Um, yeah I do like the ending that I guess we do see at some undetermined point in the future that they are living in a world where magic is a fairy tale and that's. I like that as a setup for a story like final fantasy 6 where magic is extinct as far as we know until you start using magic 15 minutes into the game but that's a whole other thing. Guys. Thank you for joining for this. What has become a mammoth episode of tales from the backlog I kind of expected it because we have just so many things to say about final fantasy 16 but I appreciate you guys taking the time then the nonetheless.

02:50:11.74
Eric Gess
Dave. It's always a pleasure and Rick it's always pleasure I love your guys' show so any chance I get to come on and podcast with you guys is always always a great time.

02:50:21.23
Rick
Um, yeah here here I couldn't couldn't have said it any better.

02:50:23.92
Dave
Yep, doing 3 hour podcasts about final fantasy games is merely an excuse to talk to the both of you. So I appreciate it guys. We'll give the recommendation again at the end of the show here for everyone listening to check out the unlockables podcast check out pixel project radio and. I don't know what be nice to everybody I I set that up where I was gonna say a third thing and I don't know so next time you go out to eat leave a good tip. We'll we'll just say that. Yeah, check out those shows again links down in the show notes and tune in next week for the next game to come out of the backlog.