SPSPEAKERS Xiumei Pu, Ze Min Xiao, Brent Olson Brent Olson 00:10 Hi, everyone, welcome back to the mountain stories podcast. We've been on a bit of a hiatus for the last year, year and a half, through COVID and pandemic and all the chaos that has come with that. But we're back and I'm really excited to be back with this project that has been cooking on the stovetop for a while now. My name is Brent Olson. I'm one of the directors of the Institute for Mountain Research at Westminster College. The goal of the Institute is to connect people to mountains and to share the stories of people who share that connection. As part of that mission, over the last year, we've been really proud to collaborate with Dr. Xiumei Pu on her project “Mountains and Stories: Building Community Among Asian Refugees and Immigrants”. For more thorough overview of the project, you should go back and have a listen to the last episode of the podcast in which Dr. Pu outlines the inspiration for it, for her goals, and collecting the stories of Asian refugees and immigrants in the Salt Lake Valley, and lays out some of the things that she's learned in the process of hearing these stories. So, over the past six months, we've had a chance to sit down and talk with a cohort of people who are deeply involved in, in changing the social landscape of the Salt Lake Valley, and who have amazing stories and ideas to share. Thrilled to share the first of those conversations with you today. Xiumei Pu 01:27 Our guest today is Zee, who is the director of Salt Lake County Mayor's Office for New Americans. I'll let her go into more details about herself and her stories. Ze Min Xiao 01:49 My name is Ze Min Xiao, in Chinese it's Xiao Ze Min. I direct the Office for New Americans for Salt Lake County Mayor Jenny Wilson. My role as the Director for the Office or the role of the office really is to maximize the potentials of New Americans in Salt Lake County. We define New Americans as anyone who's born outside the United States, meaning foreign born. In Salt Lake County, about 12.7% of individuals living in the county are foreign born, and we anticipate those numbers to increase. Majority of the foreign born population, the largest percentage of individuals is from Central and South America. However, the Asian community is the fastest growing, and that is in line with the national trend. We also have a large significant refugee population. And Utah has been seen as a really welcoming place, and really is a spotlight in the country, where there's so much division in terms of immigration and refugee resettlement, that we're able to stand out and be a spirit of hope for individuals who are seeking a new future. Ze Min Xiao 03:02 I was born in China in a small village in Zhongshan Guangdong Province. I immigrated, my parents immigrated actually to American Samoa, Hawaii, in the 1990. I can’t remember when. When I was three years old, they left, my dad left, and I was raised by my grandma in China, and I was able to join my parents at the age of 10. And I grew up in American Samoa, a small island in the Pacific, US territory. My parents had some small businesses there. And really it is the very common immigrant experience, the way you go to a new country, and entrepreneurship is the way for you to earn a living and provide for your family. So, that's what my parents did. Ze Min Xiao 03:55 Throughout the summer months, I spend time with my aunt in San Francisco. And when I was about to go to college, I came to... well... I was not planning to, but end up here in Utah. I went to the University of Utah because my parents, my mom thought it was a safe place to go. I was ready to go to USC but it was in central LA, and she didn't think that was a good idea. So, I came to Utah instead, and have been here since…When did I come? 1997. So a long time ago. Graduated from the University of Utah with a degree in Political Science and minor in Economics, and was very fortunate to have landed a job immediately as the Assistant Director of the Women's Business Center at the Salt Lake Chamber. And entrepreneurship, like I said, it's really important to me at the time and that is something that I really want to believe in and help to provide that opportunity to make it easier for others who are going into this field. And I was the Assistant Director for the Women's Business Center for five years. Some of the most rewarding projects that I was able to work on during my years at the Chamber was initiated a Minority Business Committee bringing in different voices into the Chamber of Commerce, at that time, was pretty, was general, there wasn't much diversity, especially in the Board of Governors, and so forth. I co-staff a Minority Business Committee. Ze Min Xiao 05:42 We also were able to begin a partnership with the International Rescue Committee to offer Sudanese refugee women the opportunity to start a food... what do you call it?... a food business at the farmers market, and they sell Sudanese food and I was able to help them get that set up. And that really kind of journeys me to what I'm doing right now, and my passion for working with immigrants and refugees. My husband is from Vietnam, and his family, not him, his brother came here as a refugee from Vietnam, so has that experience as well. And from there, well, a couple years at the Salt Lake Community College as an academic advisor helping refugee and Asian students there, and then end up in Salt Lake County when the Mayor at that time Peter Corroon and former Governor Huntsman had a series of town hall meetings to discuss ways to better integrate refugees into our community. As I mentioned, we have a large refugee population per capita, and one of the recommendations was to invest in a position, a full time position within Salt Lake County government to help with integration. And that was, at that time, was relatively progressive. I think we are one amongst one of five communities where the municipal government invested in resettlement of refugees. Ze Min Xiao 07:17 Refugee resettlement is oftentimes seen as a federal responsibility, we have the state department who contract with resettlement agencies. And we have two in the state of Utah, the International Rescue Committee of Utah and Catholic Community Services, contract with those resettlement agencies to provide services to refugees once they resettle in our communities. Most of the expenses are paid through either the Department of State or the Office of Refugee Resettlement, and there's very little investment from a local standpoint in terms of supporting refugee resettlement. But what we've seen and heard is that just by helping a refugee by providing them a job and housing is not enough, you need to make sure that they're fully integrated into a society, and that they are able to maximize their potentials, and being able to feel like they belong here. And I think that's the integration process that we invest in local government. And we took on that spirit of welcoming and providing those types of services that started with my position as the refugee services liaison and slowly grew into the Office for New Americans. Because we also recognize that although refugees, we were able to provide services for refugees, there's a larger population of foreign-born who could benefit from those services. And so that is when the Office for New Americans started. Ze Min Xiao 08:59 I think there is so much complexity with the migrant experience, right, the immigration experience. It is so complex that it's so hard to, you know, put a blanket over it, like, this is the experience of it. I think lots of factors, depending where you come from, the experience is different. How you get here is also, you know, what are those push and pull factors that get individuals come to the United States and those push and pull factors really affect your journey in coming here. I think that one of the big differences I see is individuals who come here with the legal status and those who don't. And that's really something that defines how well you integrate into a community and how accepted you are. So I think that plays a large factor and in Utah there is also a wider distinction, stronger distinction between those who have immigrant status and those who have refugee status. I think there's a lot more people who could identify themselves with the refugee journey because of how the State of Utah was founded, based on persecution. There's, so, there's that tie there. And I think that there tend to be a lot more acceptance with refugees than it is with immigrants, and specifically, undocumented immigrants. The experiences of those individuals have a different challenge. Overall, I think that people who come to the United States and to Utah, I think they do feel a sense of welcoming. The perils of the migration of people is really interesting, too. Ze Min Xiao 10:54 And this is, it's not unique to America, right? I had the opportunity to participate in a Trans-Atlantic exchange program with Germany and was able to study and observe the migration of individuals into Germany. And this is, you know, five years ago, when there was a huge movement of people from the Middle East, going into Germany and other European countries. And I think that migration experience is really not unique to the United States. I think the United States has, because of how it is founded, I think that is more embedded into our system, but we see it all over the world today. And, and even within a country and within the borders of a sovereign nation, you know, I think about it, the acceptance of people, and how people move from one place to another and whether or not to make a new home for themselves or the family. And again, those push and pull factors that allow people to go from one place to another, even going back. I go to China and visit my grandma every other year. So because, you know, she kind of, she raised me when my parents left. And she refused to come to United States. She's like: I was born in China, I'm gonna die here, so you guys, either you come and visit me or I’m not... that's it. And he just, she just passed away a couple years ago. So before that, I go back every two years to visit her in a rural village in China. I left China in 1990. This was just after the Tiananmen Square. So, it was like, really strange times at that time. Ze Min Xiao 12:47 And seeing how the growth has been, and the development in China is like, every time I go back, like, I can't recognize it anymore. And this is every two years. But going back to your question about, you know, the migrant...migration of people and journey of people, what I have observed even within China is those push and pull factors of workers coming from the north to Zhongshan, which is, you know, a developing zone at the time and the core of capitalism, and we rely on labor from the rural areas. And the migration of those people coming into a small village that is pretty close knit, and the acceptance of whether the locals accepting those foreigners coming in and it just makes you question about, you know, the acceptance of people is beyond just a sovereign state. It is even within a community and within a society and within a culture and ethnicity of the same people, we are all Chinese, I mean, I know that there's so many different dialects that you speak, but people are just not able, like, accept their otherness, they don't belong into, you know, a close-knit village, you know, there's laws that not allow them to, even like, live in some spaces within the village, and so, yeah, it's complex, very complex. Ze Min Xiao 14:19 I think it goes back to this human nature, acceptance, and who we are. And what we do, is helping people understand, you know, the relationships and values of those relationships, and how do you find identities, acknowledging each other's differences, but also acknowledging that we are the same. I always say just go out and make friends and be authentic in those relationships and talk to people who you haven't talked to before. And I think that once you do that, there's a lot more commonality than it is. I think it's also important to know that “why are you doing this”? Are you doing this because you feel good that you're actually making a friend who is a person of color? Are you truly enjoying the experience? Right? And I think that is something that I question all the time. And we have a lot of community members who want to support refugees, for instance, and every Christmas, we get hundreds of phone calls, not me personally, although I do get phone calls, but two resettlement agencies. And they said, I want to adopt a family, I want to give them a TV, I need to give them shoes. I mean, you know, how can I be playing the Secret Santa things? I was like, they are not puppies, you can not just adopt them. You have to think about the consequences of, like, the expectations you're setting up for a parent. You know, it makes you feel good that you're able to give someone an iPhone or a pair of shoes. But what is the expectation you're setting up for that parent now? The next year, how are they going to keep that up? If you buy someone a big TV, have you thought about whether or not they can pay the bills, the cable bills; if you buy someone a phone, do they have the ability to keep up with the services? And more important than that is, like, you have to acknowledge that they have so much assets. It is better for you to understand where they are, and get to know them for who they are before you just buy some things, just because when you're doing that you're just making yourself feel good, not really necessary building that authentic relationship that would foster, you know, building a better cohesion within that community and society. Xiumei Pu 16:49 There's so much diversity and complexity, right, in individual stories and different families who come here. I'm also wondering if you could share with us a little bit more about what are some of the pathways of... I'm hesitant to use the word “integrating” because sometimes “integrating” means some part of you is lost in that process... but for the convenience and for the purpose of communication, I'll use that word “integrating.” The pathways of integrating to the new environment...let’s say that, not necessarily American culture because American culture is diverse in my eyes...to the new environment they migrated to or immigrated to where they find another refuge for themselves or for their families. You mentioned entrepreneurship could be one pathway. What are some of the other pathways? Ze Min Xiao 18:09 Yeah, that's a good question. You know, we have seen some successes with some of the programs that we did, and how we approach, you know, using the word integration process of. I think what is successful is being able to acknowledge the assets and the differences someone brings to our community. And I think it has to be a two-way street, you wouldn't be, I don't think an individual would feel like that this is their home until they're being welcomed into their home. And more than just welcoming, it is belonging, you know, to be belonged. Did, do someone feel, at the end of the day, you belong here? And people ask me, and I asked myself that question as well: do I belong here? In this day, even though I've been here for so long, and you know, I've been 100 percent working in government agency... and you know...I don't know. I mean, I go to meetings, and just until recently, I begin to accept that it's okay that I speak with an accent. Because that was something that bothered me quite a bit. At the end, I wouldn't feel like I belong until my accent is gone, right? And I had to learn to accept: no, I don't need to; I belong here, even though I speak with an accent and it's okay if I'm in a conversation with high-level executives, or policymakers, and all of those things because that's just who I am. Ze Min Xiao 19:39 But it took a long, long time to get to that point. And I think it is a self recognition that is okay for you to be that way, but also having people in the community who give you those permission to feel okay. Right? And I think that is something that as a community, we need to do. It's we lack some of the norms that we have set, standards that we have set as community. That you have to belong, you have to act a certain way, you have to speak a certain way, you have to dress a certain way to be able to belong to a community. And, and I think that at this point, we're kind of testing those standards. Okay, is that really the standard that you have? We had to put in place, and throughout the history in the United States, and the immigrants who come here, we always put restrictions on who is American and who's not American. And those are arbitrary, right? Community make up those standards. Why does, why do Asian Americans always feel like the perpetual foreigners, because the way they look different than Europeans, even though they've been here for generations, and even here longer than a lot of others, but we have put into this perspective that in order to be American, you need to have a certain trait, you have to look a certain way, you have to talk a certain way. And, and I think that is something that we have to continue to, to evolve, and be able to accept that America is a country of immigrants. And that different perspective and different stories is who we are. And I think we forget that, we forget that because that we have allowed the othering of other people since the very beginning of the founding of the United States. So yeah, I have to say one other thing about acceptance and integration and feeling like belong. I have two teenage boys, a 19 year old and a 17 year old, and they don't speak Chinese. Ze Min Xiao 21:57 And I just realized, maybe five or six years ago, when my son came up to me “Mom, how come you never taught us Chinese?” And they want to learn Chinese and I was like: why would you want to learn, because…? And it makes me question myself, why did I not teach my kids Chinese? Right? And in a way, I feel like learning Chinese is shameful. I don't want them to have the accent that I have; I don't want them to see as like, some of the... the experience that I have experienced being an immigrant; you're American, you should speak English. And I didn't recognize that, that was, you know, I come into acceptance that that is the reason why I did not teach my kids Chinese because I don't want to have them to go through some of the challenges that I have, you know, the negative consequences of speaking with an accent, of being labeled as the other. You cannot do that. So, anyways, they don’t speak English, I mean Chinese. In high school, they actually took Arabic instead of Chinese because, like, you didn't teach me Chinese, I'm just gonna learn Arabic now. Ze Min Xiao 23:12 Although my 19 year old will be going to school in San Francisco, but not now because the pandemic, and I think he'll have, I think he'll have a different perspective. I think living in San Francisco is definitely very different than living in Salt Lake, and they traveled around the world, I mean, it's not like they've been here. So I'm glad that in a way that people are able to go out and they're able to explore and find their own way and they'll decide what they want to do but I just have to live up with the guilt, that is, why I did not teach them Chinese when they were little. Xiumei Pu 23:51 You mentioned accents. I speak English with an accent. What languages do you speak at home? Do you speak English? You mentioned your husband is Vietnamese. Ze Min Xiao 24:06 No, we speak English. We speak English. My Chinese, I speak Cantonese. I took classes at the U to speak Mandarin and I decide I'm horrible in languages. Like I speak Chinese with an English accent and my grammar is terrible. And I just I decided I am just bad in language. I speak my village dialect and Cantonese and then Mandarin and then English and I did speak Samoan for a little bit but I'm never good in any of those languages. So I struggle to find words to communicate. I don't think that is because I'm an immigrant coming here to United States and learning a different language. I think it's a struggle even in China, I struggled to find the right words. Yeah. And that's what I come to understand, you know, that is okay. This is not because of speaking with an accent, not because I am an immigrant coming here but just that I am terrible in languages. I can never win. And I just need to accept that. No, my husband was born in Vietnam, but he is actually Chinese. So we speak Cantonese. So his family speak Cantonese. And it's funny because in Vietnam, they were merchants and they live in a Chinese quarter of Vietnam. And we went back to, we went to his old house in Vietnam a few years back. And so he was, he was prohibited from learning Vietnamese when he was in Vietnam, because they were Chinese. So they had to go to Chinese school, they had to talk Chinese and the parents believe you cannot learn Vietnamese. So he learned Vietnamese after he came here in Utah. So he speaks Vietnamese but he did not learn it in Vietnam, he learned it here. So yeah, so he, we speak Cantonese, when we don't want the kids to know what we're talking about. We can speak Cantonese. That was, maybe that was the other reason why I didn't teach them. And then he speaks Chaozhou, that is a different another dialect...yeah...he speaks Vietnamese, but I don't. I don't know any Vietnamese. My son is dating someone who is Vietnamese. And so my husband and his girlfriend speak Vietnamese when they don't want us to know what is happening. Xiumei Pu 26:57 I really appreciated the work you have been doing. And just to add a personal note to what you said. I was born in China, too. But I took a very different route to come to the United States. I came here as a graduate student. I remember...yeah...I have a lot of cultural shock when I came here too. So, I'm curious to know...you immigrated to the United States at the age of 10, you were so young, right? and it was back in the 1990s, early 1990s, I think the cultural climate was very different at that time...so I'm curious to know that growing up in the United States as an Asian, which is a minority, right? what was the biggest challenge for you, growing up? For me, it was cultural shock. I think for you it might be a little different. Ze Min Xiao 28:10 Yeah, I think for me, it was very different. I grew up in American Samoa, like I said, it's a small island territory, you know, they spoke English, but they also have their own culture, which is Samoan. When I first got to American Samoa, I think there may be a dozen Chinese families there. So we are kind of forced to integrate fast, it's not like you could go to a Chinese restaurant. There is none. The only one is the one that my dad and my mom operate. And in fact, my dad didn't know how to cook until immigrated, and then started making recipes there. So I think it was a little bit different in my perspective, in terms of growing up, you know, there was a lot of challenges and obstacles that my parents face, you know, they were being taken advantage of because of their immigration status, and even till now, I mean, thinking back on where we were as Chinese Americans struggles, I would compare it to actually, you know, the Chinese American struggles, even though it was the 90s, but I think my parents experience was more similar to the Asian Americans struggles of even the 1920s because there was this, there was very little support system in place in a small island like that. I think that when you go into and I think there's pros and cons with living in a smaller space. And I think you see that here as well in Utah. I think that there is a lot more attention paid to Asian Americans in more gateway cities, and states like California. Like I said, most of my family lives in California in San Francisco and so to them, you know, even my aunt, she didn't need to learn English, right? It's just like, who needs to speak English, you just go to Chinatown, and everyone speaks the language. So there's a hyper awareness of the Asian American in those places, but they also have, and we get a lot of pushback as well, because of the hyper awareness. But they also have systems and infrastructure to support them, right. They have organizations that have been formed for decades to help support those individuals in transitioning into the American society. Ze Min Xiao 30:28 Whereas I think that in Utah in places like Salt Lake, where we don't have that infrastructure in place, but yet, we don't have the hyper focus on, you know, the pros and cons of being Asian American. In fact, I was just being interviewed by a reporter yesterday about the trend in Asian crimes throughout the United States. And we really haven't seen that here. In Utah, there's maybe one or two cases that we have, you know, informally being shared that in some, a couple restaurants, there were some racial slurs that is being inflicted into some of the restaurant owners, but not in the way that we have seen in other places. To me...I experience it, but I did not analyze and really think through my experience until, you know, just recently and being able to go back and say, oh, wow, that was not okay, that was terrible in fact. And I would also add to that transitioning from American Samoa to Utah was more of a cultural shock to me than it was the other way. Just because, you know, I associate the United States with my experience growing up visiting my aunt in San Francisco, and moving from San Francisco to Utah was a cultural shock because we have such a population that is so different. In fact, I remembered leaving to take a Greyhound bus to San Francisco, so I can have my Chinese food feast in the 90s. But, you know, I think that has changed now. Xiumei Pu 32:31 How do you spend your spare time? Do you go hiking in the mountains, skiing? What are the kinds of recreational activities that you and your family are doing? Ze Min Xiao 32:44 Utah, I would say it's slowly growing on me, I prefer the beach. I'd prefer not to wear any shoes, and have my flip flops and jump to the beach all the time. So coming to Utah is definitely a challenge. And I, you know, it took I'm still getting used to... I do love nature. And I think like, I can't really say that same with my teenage boys anymore. And when they were growing up, they were forced to go camping and stuff with me. And now they're like, I want to go hiking with your mom. That's not fun anymore. So yeah, enjoy nature. And I tried to get out as much as I can, going hiking. I was able to learn how to do rock climbing. And so I do rock climbing when I have the opportunity to go out and do that, but mostly, you know, the pandemic. I've been doing it indoors. I don't ski. I don’t like it. It is too cold. But I do love camping and fishing. So we go out and fish quite a bit in the waters. I'm also a big gardener. So in the summertime, we have, no, I have a pretty big garden and grow all kinds of vegetables and stuff...I also have chickens. I have five chickens. I think it is that combination of living in a city like Utah where you could have the city but also have kind of the experiences of, you know, country life in a way, being able to collect your own eggs and have a big garden... I think that's really really great and that I think that also helps me get connected to my roots, you know, growing vegetables that my grandma grew, and being able to share those vegetables with friends here and introducing them to the different flavors. Xiumei Pu 34:46 What did she grow, and what do you grow? 34:50 Yeah, so we, well, I tried to grow stuff, sometimes it doesn't really work out. But you know, the mustard greens, and the choy family, the bok choys, and things like that. I love mustard greens. I could only grow certain mustard greens. I couldn't grow the big mustard greens that you could find. I think that the soil and the weather here is very different. What do you call it? the melons, the Chinese melons, the loofah. I was very successful one year growing loofah, those long vegetables, but then they stopped growing. I don't know why. But so I test different things. I buy seeds from some Asian seeds company in Vermont, and yeah, I just experiment. Pink color celery. Pink color celery was my last experiment. It didn't grow very well, either. Xiumei Pu 36:03 Yeah, I understand that like growing food and vegetables is so... I feel... very closely tied to our early memories, right, growing up and the food our parents and grandparents cook, so I can understand that. And I sometimes crave for, you know, Chinese vegetables that I was used to when I was in China. I also wanted to ask you: where did you go fishing and hiking and doing other kinds of recreational activities? How come I have never met you on my day hikes? I go on day hikes very often in the three canyons: Mill Creek Canyon, Big Cottonwood, and Little Cottonwood. On my day hikes, I rarely rarely rarely see Asians hiking. I was wondering if we are going out there at different times, or is it true that not too many Asian Americans are enjoying outdoor activities like Americans do? What is your observation? You have lived here much longer. So, I might have a misconception. Ze Min Xiao 37:45 I feel like I'm in between identities sometimes. This is because I came to the US when I was pretty young. And if I go back to China, they think that I'm totally Americanized at this point, but I agree, in some sense...I think it depends on what age you are, like my nephews and my nieces, they love hiking, but you know, I think that they're second generation and they're more American than that. But looking at my sister in laws, and my husband is the youngest in the family of seven. So you know, there is an age difference between me and my in-laws. I don't see them going out. The Outdoors is not something that they are accustomed to not until recently that they began to go out and camp. I think it's a cultural thing too. Camping. Why would you want to go in the middle of the woods without any toilets and anything like that? And to me and my husband, we’re like, this is great, you know why would you keep me in a campsite with all the facilities that you need. We were to go to where there's no established camp site. But that mentality is very different. Right? Why would you go hiking when you can stay home and watch TV or something like that because they seen it as something that is going out into the community and fields I think as part of like, I don't know exactly how to word it in a way, it's not seen as, what's the word I'm looking for now? Is that something that people would like, a choice to do. You do it when you're forced into doing it, not because you want to. I use the analogy of riding your bicycle, you know, when I was growing up in China, everyone had to ride the bike to everywhere. And so now that you have a car, why the heck would you want to ride a bike? It takes so much time and energy out of you, and I think that mentality is still there a little bit. And I think that people are changing now. I mean, I'm seeing my in-laws going biking just for fun, for biking, but I think that there is also this pushback like, whoa, we don't need to do that anymore. We're like, we're advanced now. We have cars. And the same thing, you know, go hiking in places like that, why would I want to do that? I only do that when I have to collect firewood, and come back and use them. So, yeah, I think it's a generational issue...you know. For me, it is rock climbing, like, why would you put yourself in harm's way? And I have gotten, you know, some red flags like, you shouldn't be doing that. But like I say, I am Americanized. So I just turn around and “see you’ah”. Xiumei Pu 40:52 This community project is anchored in mountains. I emailed you about that. My question is: what mountains mean for you? We have lived in the valley surrounded by mountains. Ze Min Xiao 41:11 I think mountains means different things to me. Mountains...growing up in China...the mountains represents not wilderness, I always associated the mountains with graves. Because in China, you bury the people, and I think they bury the people in the mountains. And the only time you really go to the mountains is doing Memorial, Chinese Memorial ... it's a big celebration, you go in and do that. And that's the only association between me and the mountains when I was growing up, you know, that's where the ancestors are buried. That experience was very different than the mountains here. And the mountains here in Utah represents kind of freedom away from society and being able to be with nature. And I think that the concept of nature is also very different in the Chinese culture and in the Western culture. And I think part of it is because I grew up during the Communist Era where there was just a different, I think, a different perception of the mountains, and nature and all of those things. For me, the mountains here really does represent my home, because I've been here for so long and just, you know, freedom, to be just in the wild. And that's the important thing to going back to your questions, hearing each other's stories. That's how you get to learn and know who is amongst you, so that you'll be able to understand them. Xiumei Pu 43:19 Thanks, Zee, for sharing her stories and thank you for tuning in. Our next storyteller will be Emilio Manuel Camu. Emilio serves as the current president of OCA Utah, the Vice President of Education and culture for OCA National, founder and director of the Filipino American National Historical Society Utah, treasurer for Mana Academy, and director of the Filipino American Association of Utah. On Saturday, June 26, we will hold a community building cultural event in Fitts Park, South Salt Lake, bringing the group of storytellers together with the broader community. We will enjoy a lion dance blessing ceremony, conversations and Asian food. You can RSVP for the event through the social media of OCA Utah, or the social media of Promise South Salt Lake. Thanks to the Whiting Foundation Public Engagement Programs for supporting the project with a seed grant. Brent Olson 44:43 And thank you all for listening to another episode of the mountain stories podcast. We'll be back next week with another storyteller and we'll have episodes all the way through October and events here in Salt Lake City that go along with that. Our theme music for the podcast is brought to you by Pixie and Partygrass Boys. As Naomi used to say all the time, they are awesome and you should check them out. Thanks for listening. EAKERS Xiumei Pu, Ze Min Xiao, Brent Olson Brent Olson 00:10 Hi, everyone, welcome back to the mountain stories podcast. We've been on a bit of a hiatus for the last year, year and a half, through COVID and pandemic and all the chaos that has come with that. But we're back and I'm really excited to be back with this project that has been cooking on the stovetop for a while now. My name is Brent Olson. I'm one of the directors of the Institute for Mountain Research at Westminster College. The goal of the Institute is to connect people to mountains and to share the stories of people who share that connection. As part of that mission, over the last year, we've been really proud to collaborate with Dr. Xiumei Pu on her project “Mountains and Stories: Building Community Among Asian Refugees and Immigrants”. For more thorough overview of the project, you should go back and have a listen to the last episode of the podcast in which Dr. Pu outlines the inspiration for it, for her goals, and collecting the stories of Asian refugees and immigrants in the Salt Lake Valley, and lays out some of the things that she's learned in the process of hearing these stories. So, over the past six months, we've had a chance to sit down and talk with a cohort of people who are deeply involved in, in changing the social landscape of the Salt Lake Valley, and who have amazing stories and ideas to share. Thrilled to share the first of those conversations with you today. Xiumei Pu 01:27 Our guest today is Zee, who is the director of Salt Lake County Mayor's Office for New Americans. I'll let her go into more details about herself and her stories. Ze Min Xiao 01:49 My name is Ze Min Xiao, in Chinese it's Xiao Ze Min. I direct the Office for New Americans for Salt Lake County Mayor Jenny Wilson. My role as the Director for the Office or the role of the office really is to maximize the potentials of New Americans in Salt Lake County. We define New Americans as anyone who's born outside the United States, meaning foreign born. In Salt Lake County, about 12.7% of individuals living in the county are foreign born, and we anticipate those numbers to increase. Majority of the foreign born population, the largest percentage of individuals is from Central and South America. However, the Asian community is the fastest growing, and that is in line with the national trend. We also have a large significant refugee population. And Utah has been seen as a really welcoming place, and really is a spotlight in the country, where there's so much division in terms of immigration and refugee resettlement, that we're able to stand out and be a spirit of hope for individuals who are seeking a new future. Ze Min Xiao 03:02 I was born in China in a small village in Zhongshan Guangdong Province. I immigrated, my parents immigrated actually to American Samoa, Hawaii, in the 1990. I can’t remember when. When I was three years old, they left, my dad left, and I was raised by my grandma in China, and I was able to join my parents at the age of 10. And I grew up in American Samoa, a small island in the Pacific, US territory. My parents had some small businesses there. And really it is the very common immigrant experience, the way you go to a new country, and entrepreneurship is the way for you to earn a living and provide for your family. So, that's what my parents did. Ze Min Xiao 03:55 Throughout the summer months, I spend time with my aunt in San Francisco. And when I was about to go to college, I came to... well... I was not planning to, but end up here in Utah. I went to the University of Utah because my parents, my mom thought it was a safe place to go. I was ready to go to USC but it was in central LA, and she didn't think that was a good idea. So, I came to Utah instead, and have been here since…When did I come? 1997. So a long time ago. Graduated from the University of Utah with a degree in Political Science and minor in Economics, and was very fortunate to have landed a job immediately as the Assistant Director of the Women's Business Center at the Salt Lake Chamber. And entrepreneurship, like I said, it's really important to me at the time and that is something that I really want to believe in and help to provide that opportunity to make it easier for others who are going into this field. And I was the Assistant Director for the Women's Business Center for five years. Some of the most rewarding projects that I was able to work on during my years at the Chamber was initiated a Minority Business Committee bringing in different voices into the Chamber of Commerce, at that time, was pretty, was general, there wasn't much diversity, especially in the Board of Governors, and so forth. I co-staff a Minority Business Committee. Ze Min Xiao 05:42 We also were able to begin a partnership with the International Rescue Committee to offer Sudanese refugee women the opportunity to start a food... what do you call it?... a food business at the farmers market, and they sell Sudanese food and I was able to help them get that set up. And that really kind of journeys me to what I'm doing right now, and my passion for working with immigrants and refugees. My husband is from Vietnam, and his family, not him, his brother came here as a refugee from Vietnam, so has that experience as well. And from there, well, a couple years at the Salt Lake Community College as an academic advisor helping refugee and Asian students there, and then end up in Salt Lake County when the Mayor at that time Peter Corroon and former Governor Huntsman had a series of town hall meetings to discuss ways to better integrate refugees into our community. As I mentioned, we have a large refugee population per capita, and one of the recommendations was to invest in a position, a full time position within Salt Lake County government to help with integration. And that was, at that time, was relatively progressive. I think we are one amongst one of five communities where the municipal government invested in resettlement of refugees. Ze Min Xiao 07:17 Refugee resettlement is oftentimes seen as a federal responsibility, we have the state department who contract with resettlement agencies. And we have two in the state of Utah, the International Rescue Committee of Utah and Catholic Community Services, contract with those resettlement agencies to provide services to refugees once they resettle in our communities. Most of the expenses are paid through either the Department of State or the Office of Refugee Resettlement, and there's very little investment from a local standpoint in terms of supporting refugee resettlement. But what we've seen and heard is that just by helping a refugee by providing them a job and housing is not enough, you need to make sure that they're fully integrated into a society, and that they are able to maximize their potentials, and being able to feel like they belong here. And I think that's the integration process that we invest in local government. And we took on that spirit of welcoming and providing those types of services that started with my position as the refugee services liaison and slowly grew into the Office for New Americans. Because we also recognize that although refugees, we were able to provide services for refugees, there's a larger population of foreign-born who could benefit from those services. And so that is when the Office for New Americans started. Ze Min Xiao 08:59 I think there is so much complexity with the migrant experience, right, the immigration experience. It is so complex that it's so hard to, you know, put a blanket over it, like, this is the experience of it. I think lots of factors, depending where you come from, the experience is different. How you get here is also, you know, what are those push and pull factors that get individuals come to the United States and those push and pull factors really affect your journey in coming here. I think that one of the big differences I see is individuals who come here with the legal status and those who don't. And that's really something that defines how well you integrate into a community and how accepted you are. So I think that plays a large factor and in Utah there is also a wider distinction, stronger distinction between those who have immigrant status and those who have refugee status. I think there's a lot more people who could identify themselves with the refugee journey because of how the State of Utah was founded, based on persecution. There's, so, there's that tie there. And I think that there tend to be a lot more acceptance with refugees than it is with immigrants, and specifically, undocumented immigrants. The experiences of those individuals have a different challenge. Overall, I think that people who come to the United States and to Utah, I think they do feel a sense of welcoming. The perils of the migration of people is really interesting, too. Ze Min Xiao 10:54 And this is, it's not unique to America, right? I had the opportunity to participate in a Trans-Atlantic exchange program with Germany and was able to study and observe the migration of individuals into Germany. And this is, you know, five years ago, when there was a huge movement of people from the Middle East, going into Germany and other European countries. And I think that migration experience is really not unique to the United States. I think the United States has, because of how it is founded, I think that is more embedded into our system, but we see it all over the world today. And, and even within a country and within the borders of a sovereign nation, you know, I think about it, the acceptance of people, and how people move from one place to another and whether or not to make a new home for themselves or the family. And again, those push and pull factors that allow people to go from one place to another, even going back. I go to China and visit my grandma every other year. So because, you know, she kind of, she raised me when my parents left. And she refused to come to United States. She's like: I was born in China, I'm gonna die here, so you guys, either you come and visit me or I’m not... that's it. And he just, she just passed away a couple years ago. So before that, I go back every two years to visit her in a rural village in China. I left China in 1990. This was just after the Tiananmen Square. So, it was like, really strange times at that time. Ze Min Xiao 12:47 And seeing how the growth has been, and the development in China is like, every time I go back, like, I can't recognize it anymore. And this is every two years. But going back to your question about, you know, the migrant...migration of people and journey of people, what I have observed even within China is those push and pull factors of workers coming from the north to Zhongshan, which is, you know, a developing zone at the time and the core of capitalism, and we rely on labor from the rural areas. And the migration of those people coming into a small village that is pretty close knit, and the acceptance of whether the locals accepting those foreigners coming in and it just makes you question about, you know, the acceptance of people is beyond just a sovereign state. It is even within a community and within a society and within a culture and ethnicity of the same people, we are all Chinese, I mean, I know that there's so many different dialects that you speak, but people are just not able, like, accept their otherness, they don't belong into, you know, a close-knit village, you know, there's laws that not allow them to, even like, live in some spaces within the village, and so, yeah, it's complex, very complex. Ze Min Xiao 14:19 I think it goes back to this human nature, acceptance, and who we are. And what we do, is helping people understand, you know, the relationships and values of those relationships, and how do you find identities, acknowledging each other's differences, but also acknowledging that we are the same. I always say just go out and make friends and be authentic in those relationships and talk to people who you haven't talked to before. And I think that once you do that, there's a lot more commonality than it is. I think it's also important to know that “why are you doing this”? Are you doing this because you feel good that you're actually making a friend who is a person of color? Are you truly enjoying the experience? Right? And I think that is something that I question all the time. And we have a lot of community members who want to support refugees, for instance, and every Christmas, we get hundreds of phone calls, not me personally, although I do get phone calls, but two resettlement agencies. And they said, I want to adopt a family, I want to give them a TV, I need to give them shoes. I mean, you know, how can I be playing the Secret Santa things? I was like, they are not puppies, you can not just adopt them. You have to think about the consequences of, like, the expectations you're setting up for a parent. You know, it makes you feel good that you're able to give someone an iPhone or a pair of shoes. But what is the expectation you're setting up for that parent now? The next year, how are they going to keep that up? If you buy someone a big TV, have you thought about whether or not they can pay the bills, the cable bills; if you buy someone a phone, do they have the ability to keep up with the services? And more important than that is, like, you have to acknowledge that they have so much assets. It is better for you to understand where they are, and get to know them for who they are before you just buy some things, just because when you're doing that you're just making yourself feel good, not really necessary building that authentic relationship that would foster, you know, building a better cohesion within that community and society. Xiumei Pu 16:49 There's so much diversity and complexity, right, in individual stories and different families who come here. I'm also wondering if you could share with us a little bit more about what are some of the pathways of... I'm hesitant to use the word “integrating” because sometimes “integrating” means some part of you is lost in that process... but for the convenience and for the purpose of communication, I'll use that word “integrating.” The pathways of integrating to the new environment...let’s say that, not necessarily American culture because American culture is diverse in my eyes...to the new environment they migrated to or immigrated to where they find another refuge for themselves or for their families. You mentioned entrepreneurship could be one pathway. What are some of the other pathways? Ze Min Xiao 18:09 Yeah, that's a good question. You know, we have seen some successes with some of the programs that we did, and how we approach, you know, using the word integration process of. I think what is successful is being able to acknowledge the assets and the differences someone brings to our community. And I think it has to be a two-way street, you wouldn't be, I don't think an individual would feel like that this is their home until they're being welcomed into their home. And more than just welcoming, it is belonging, you know, to be belonged. Did, do someone feel, at the end of the day, you belong here? And people ask me, and I asked myself that question as well: do I belong here? In this day, even though I've been here for so long, and you know, I've been 100 percent working in government agency... and you know...I don't know. I mean, I go to meetings, and just until recently, I begin to accept that it's okay that I speak with an accent. Because that was something that bothered me quite a bit. At the end, I wouldn't feel like I belong until my accent is gone, right? And I had to learn to accept: no, I don't need to; I belong here, even though I speak with an accent and it's okay if I'm in a conversation with high-level executives, or policymakers, and all of those things because that's just who I am. Ze Min Xiao 19:39 But it took a long, long time to get to that point. And I think it is a self recognition that is okay for you to be that way, but also having people in the community who give you those permission to feel okay. Right? And I think that is something that as a community, we need to do. It's we lack some of the norms that we have set, standards that we have set as community. That you have to belong, you have to act a certain way, you have to speak a certain way, you have to dress a certain way to be able to belong to a community. And, and I think that at this point, we're kind of testing those standards. Okay, is that really the standard that you have? We had to put in place, and throughout the history in the United States, and the immigrants who come here, we always put restrictions on who is American and who's not American. And those are arbitrary, right? Community make up those standards. Why does, why do Asian Americans always feel like the perpetual foreigners, because the way they look different than Europeans, even though they've been here for generations, and even here longer than a lot of others, but we have put into this perspective that in order to be American, you need to have a certain trait, you have to look a certain way, you have to talk a certain way. And, and I think that is something that we have to continue to, to evolve, and be able to accept that America is a country of immigrants. And that different perspective and different stories is who we are. And I think we forget that, we forget that because that we have allowed the othering of other people since the very beginning of the founding of the United States. So yeah, I have to say one other thing about acceptance and integration and feeling like belong. I have two teenage boys, a 19 year old and a 17 year old, and they don't speak Chinese. Ze Min Xiao 21:57 And I just realized, maybe five or six years ago, when my son came up to me “Mom, how come you never taught us Chinese?” And they want to learn Chinese and I was like: why would you want to learn, because…? And it makes me question myself, why did I not teach my kids Chinese? Right? And in a way, I feel like learning Chinese is shameful. I don't want them to have the accent that I have; I don't want them to see as like, some of the... the experience that I have experienced being an immigrant; you're American, you should speak English. And I didn't recognize that, that was, you know, I come into acceptance that that is the reason why I did not teach my kids Chinese because I don't want to have them to go through some of the challenges that I have, you know, the negative consequences of speaking with an accent, of being labeled as the other. You cannot do that. So, anyways, they don’t speak English, I mean Chinese. In high school, they actually took Arabic instead of Chinese because, like, you didn't teach me Chinese, I'm just gonna learn Arabic now. Ze Min Xiao 23:12 Although my 19 year old will be going to school in San Francisco, but not now because the pandemic, and I think he'll have, I think he'll have a different perspective. I think living in San Francisco is definitely very different than living in Salt Lake, and they traveled around the world, I mean, it's not like they've been here. So I'm glad that in a way that people are able to go out and they're able to explore and find their own way and they'll decide what they want to do but I just have to live up with the guilt, that is, why I did not teach them Chinese when they were little. Xiumei Pu 23:51 You mentioned accents. I speak English with an accent. What languages do you speak at home? Do you speak English? You mentioned your husband is Vietnamese. Ze Min Xiao 24:06 No, we speak English. We speak English. My Chinese, I speak Cantonese. I took classes at the U to speak Mandarin and I decide I'm horrible in languages. Like I speak Chinese with an English accent and my grammar is terrible. And I just I decided I am just bad in language. I speak my village dialect and Cantonese and then Mandarin and then English and I did speak Samoan for a little bit but I'm never good in any of those languages. So I struggle to find words to communicate. I don't think that is because I'm an immigrant coming here to United States and learning a different language. I think it's a struggle even in China, I struggled to find the right words. Yeah. And that's what I come to understand, you know, that is okay. This is not because of speaking with an accent, not because I am an immigrant coming here but just that I am terrible in languages. I can never win. And I just need to accept that. No, my husband was born in Vietnam, but he is actually Chinese. So we speak Cantonese. So his family speak Cantonese. And it's funny because in Vietnam, they were merchants and they live in a Chinese quarter of Vietnam. And we went back to, we went to his old house in Vietnam a few years back. And so he was, he was prohibited from learning Vietnamese when he was in Vietnam, because they were Chinese. So they had to go to Chinese school, they had to talk Chinese and the parents believe you cannot learn Vietnamese. So he learned Vietnamese after he came here in Utah. So he speaks Vietnamese but he did not learn it in Vietnam, he learned it here. So yeah, so he, we speak Cantonese, when we don't want the kids to know what we're talking about. We can speak Cantonese. That was, maybe that was the other reason why I didn't teach them. And then he speaks Chaozhou, that is a different another dialect...yeah...he speaks Vietnamese, but I don't. I don't know any Vietnamese. My son is dating someone who is Vietnamese. And so my husband and his girlfriend speak Vietnamese when they don't want us to know what is happening. Xiumei Pu 26:57 I really appreciated the work you have been doing. And just to add a personal note to what you said. I was born in China, too. But I took a very different route to come to the United States. I came here as a graduate student. I remember...yeah...I have a lot of cultural shock when I came here too. So, I'm curious to know...you immigrated to the United States at the age of 10, you were so young, right? and it was back in the 1990s, early 1990s, I think the cultural climate was very different at that time...so I'm curious to know that growing up in the United States as an Asian, which is a minority, right? what was the biggest challenge for you, growing up? For me, it was cultural shock. I think for you it might be a little different. Ze Min Xiao 28:10 Yeah, I think for me, it was very different. I grew up in American Samoa, like I said, it's a small island territory, you know, they spoke English, but they also have their own culture, which is Samoan. When I first got to American Samoa, I think there may be a dozen Chinese families there. So we are kind of forced to integrate fast, it's not like you could go to a Chinese restaurant. There is none. The only one is the one that my dad and my mom operate. And in fact, my dad didn't know how to cook until immigrated, and then started making recipes there. So I think it was a little bit different in my perspective, in terms of growing up, you know, there was a lot of challenges and obstacles that my parents face, you know, they were being taken advantage of because of their immigration status, and even till now, I mean, thinking back on where we were as Chinese Americans struggles, I would compare it to actually, you know, the Chinese American struggles, even though it was the 90s, but I think my parents experience was more similar to the Asian Americans struggles of even the 1920s because there was this, there was very little support system in place in a small island like that. I think that when you go into and I think there's pros and cons with living in a smaller space. And I think you see that here as well in Utah. I think that there is a lot more attention paid to Asian Americans in more gateway cities, and states like California. Like I said, most of my family lives in California in San Francisco and so to them, you know, even my aunt, she didn't need to learn English, right? It's just like, who needs to speak English, you just go to Chinatown, and everyone speaks the language. So there's a hyper awareness of the Asian American in those places, but they also have, and we get a lot of pushback as well, because of the hyper awareness. But they also have systems and infrastructure to support them, right. They have organizations that have been formed for decades to help support those individuals in transitioning into the American society. Ze Min Xiao 30:28 Whereas I think that in Utah in places like Salt Lake, where we don't have that infrastructure in place, but yet, we don't have the hyper focus on, you know, the pros and cons of being Asian American. In fact, I was just being interviewed by a reporter yesterday about the trend in Asian crimes throughout the United States. And we really haven't seen that here. In Utah, there's maybe one or two cases that we have, you know, informally being shared that in some, a couple restaurants, there were some racial slurs that is being inflicted into some of the restaurant owners, but not in the way that we have seen in other places. To me...I experience it, but I did not analyze and really think through my experience until, you know, just recently and being able to go back and say, oh, wow, that was not okay, that was terrible in fact. And I would also add to that transitioning from American Samoa to Utah was more of a cultural shock to me than it was the other way. Just because, you know, I associate the United States with my experience growing up visiting my aunt in San Francisco, and moving from San Francisco to Utah was a cultural shock because we have such a population that is so different. In fact, I remembered leaving to take a Greyhound bus to San Francisco, so I can have my Chinese food feast in the 90s. But, you know, I think that has changed now. Xiumei Pu 32:31 How do you spend your spare time? Do you go hiking in the mountains, skiing? What are the kinds of recreational activities that you and your family are doing? Ze Min Xiao 32:44 Utah, I would say it's slowly growing on me, I prefer the beach. I'd prefer not to wear any shoes, and have my flip flops and jump to the beach all the time. So coming to Utah is definitely a challenge. And I, you know, it took I'm still getting used to... I do love nature. And I think like, I can't really say that same with my teenage boys anymore. And when they were growing up, they were forced to go camping and stuff with me. And now they're like, I want to go hiking with your mom. That's not fun anymore. So yeah, enjoy nature. And I tried to get out as much as I can, going hiking. I was able to learn how to do rock climbing. And so I do rock climbing when I have the opportunity to go out and do that, but mostly, you know, the pandemic. I've been doing it indoors. I don't ski. I don’t like it. It is too cold. But I do love camping and fishing. So we go out and fish quite a bit in the waters. I'm also a big gardener. So in the summertime, we have, no, I have a pretty big garden and grow all kinds of vegetables and stuff...I also have chickens. I have five chickens. I think it is that combination of living in a city like Utah where you could have the city but also have kind of the experiences of, you know, country life in a way, being able to collect your own eggs and have a big garden... I think that's really really great and that I think that also helps me get connected to my roots, you know, growing vegetables that my grandma grew, and being able to share those vegetables with friends here and introducing them to the different flavors. Xiumei Pu 34:46 What did she grow, and what do you grow? 34:50 Yeah, so we, well, I tried to grow stuff, sometimes it doesn't really work out. But you know, the mustard greens, and the choy family, the bok choys, and things like that. I love mustard greens. I could only grow certain mustard greens. I couldn't grow the big mustard greens that you could find. I think that the soil and the weather here is very different. What do you call it? the melons, the Chinese melons, the loofah. I was very successful one year growing loofah, those long vegetables, but then they stopped growing. I don't know why. But so I test different things. I buy seeds from some Asian seeds company in Vermont, and yeah, I just experiment. Pink color celery. Pink color celery was my last experiment. It didn't grow very well, either. Xiumei Pu 36:03 Yeah, I understand that like growing food and vegetables is so... I feel... very closely tied to our early memories, right, growing up and the food our parents and grandparents cook, so I can understand that. And I sometimes crave for, you know, Chinese vegetables that I was used to when I was in China. I also wanted to ask you: where did you go fishing and hiking and doing other kinds of recreational activities? How come I have never met you on my day hikes? I go on day hikes very often in the three canyons: Mill Creek Canyon, Big Cottonwood, and Little Cottonwood. On my day hikes, I rarely rarely rarely see Asians hiking. I was wondering if we are going out there at different times, or is it true that not too many Asian Americans are enjoying outdoor activities like Americans do? What is your observation? You have lived here much longer. So, I might have a misconception. Ze Min Xiao 37:45 I feel like I'm in between identities sometimes. This is because I came to the US when I was pretty young. And if I go back to China, they think that I'm totally Americanized at this point, but I agree, in some sense...I think it depends on what age you are, like my nephews and my nieces, they love hiking, but you know, I think that they're second generation and they're more American than that. But looking at my sister in laws, and my husband is the youngest in the family of seven. So you know, there is an age difference between me and my in-laws. I don't see them going out. The Outdoors is not something that they are accustomed to not until recently that they began to go out and camp. I think it's a cultural thing too. Camping. Why would you want to go in the middle of the woods without any toilets and anything like that? And to me and my husband, we’re like, this is great, you know why would you keep me in a campsite with all the facilities that you need. We were to go to where there's no established camp site. But that mentality is very different. Right? Why would you go hiking when you can stay home and watch TV or something like that because they seen it as something that is going out into the community and fields I think as part of like, I don't know exactly how to word it in a way, it's not seen as, what's the word I'm looking for now? Is that something that people would like, a choice to do. You do it when you're forced into doing it, not because you want to. I use the analogy of riding your bicycle, you know, when I was growing up in China, everyone had to ride the bike to everywhere. And so now that you have a car, why the heck would you want to ride a bike? It takes so much time and energy out of you, and I think that mentality is still there a little bit. And I think that people are changing now. I mean, I'm seeing my in-laws going biking just for fun, for biking, but I think that there is also this pushback like, whoa, we don't need to do that anymore. We're like, we're advanced now. We have cars. And the same thing, you know, go hiking in places like that, why would I want to do that? I only do that when I have to collect firewood, and come back and use them. So, yeah, I think it's a generational issue...you know. For me, it is rock climbing, like, why would you put yourself in harm's way? And I have gotten, you know, some red flags like, you shouldn't be doing that. But like I say, I am Americanized. So I just turn around and “see you’ah”. Xiumei Pu 40:52 This community project is anchored in mountains. I emailed you about that. My question is: what mountains mean for you? We have lived in the valley surrounded by mountains. Ze Min Xiao 41:11 I think mountains means different things to me. Mountains...growing up in China...the mountains represents not wilderness, I always associated the mountains with graves. Because in China, you bury the people, and I think they bury the people in the mountains. And the only time you really go to the mountains is doing Memorial, Chinese Memorial ... it's a big celebration, you go in and do that. And that's the only association between me and the mountains when I was growing up, you know, that's where the ancestors are buried. That experience was very different than the mountains here. And the mountains here in Utah represents kind of freedom away from society and being able to be with nature. And I think that the concept of nature is also very different in the Chinese culture and in the Western culture. And I think part of it is because I grew up during the Communist Era where there was just a different, I think, a different perception of the mountains, and nature and all of those things. For me, the mountains here really does represent my home, because I've been here for so long and just, you know, freedom, to be just in the wild. And that's the important thing to going back to your questions, hearing each other's stories. That's how you get to learn and know who is amongst you, so that you'll be able to understand them. Xiumei Pu 43:19 Thanks, Zee, for sharing her stories and thank you for tuning in. Our next storyteller will be Emilio Manuel Camu. Emilio serves as the current president of OCA Utah, the Vice President of Education and culture for OCA National, founder and director of the Filipino American National Historical Society Utah, treasurer for Mana Academy, and director of the Filipino American Association of Utah. On Saturday, June 26, we will hold a community building cultural event in Fitts Park, South Salt Lake, bringing the group of storytellers together with the broader community. We will enjoy a lion dance blessing ceremony, conversations and Asian food. You can RSVP for the event through the social media of OCA Utah, or the social media of Promise South Salt Lake. Thanks to the Whiting Foundation Public Engagement Programs for supporting the project with a seed grant. Brent Olson 44:43 And thank you all for listening to another episode of the mountain stories podcast. We'll be back next week with another storyteller and we'll have episodes all the way through October and events here in Salt Lake City that go along with that. Our theme music for the podcast is brought to you by Pixie and Partygrass Boys. As Naomi used to say all the time, they are awesome and you should check them out. Thanks for listening.