[music] Rabbi Seth Goldstein [SG]: A lot of Jewish humor has to do with... Ties in a little bit with the pathos and the challenge of life. When my son was starting to take European history, and they were starting off with the Spanish inquisition, one of the first things I did was show him the clip of Mel Brooks during the Spanish inquisition number from History of the World Part 1 and we shared that laugh together. And here's this Jewish comedian making fun of this difficult time of Jewish history in a way that's mocking; [it] wasn't like celebrating, but it was almost from a place of survival, that we've made it, looking back at a difficult time in history with this song and dance, and mocking and making fun of it. [music] Rabbi Deborah Waxman [DW]: I'm Rabbi Deborah Waxman and I'm so happy to welcome you to Hashivenu, a podcast about Jewish teachings on resilience. And today I am so happy to have with me as my guest, Rabbi Seth Goldstein. Seth, welcome. SG: Thank you, it's great to be here. DW: Ordinarily we're talking about Jewish teachings on resilience, but this episode is a little bit different. We're going to bring the perspective from resiliency practices onto Judaism rather than just raising up Jewish practices that point toward and cultivate resilience. Because today we're gonna talk about humor. [laughter] DW: Good. We're going to have laughter and enjoying humor and being funny. We come to this conversation because when I was reviewing different writings on resilience, for sure employing humor, enjoying humor is a resilience factor. It really helps to cultivate a strong and affirmative response to the world and all the challenges it creates. I turned to you, Seth, because you're funny. [laughter] As a person and as a Rabbi in the years that I've known you, the humor that you bring to how you carry yourself in the world has [A], entertained me and [B], inspired me. And I have seen you really powerfully use humor in your rabbinate and I thought a conversation on this would be really interesting and really rich. SG: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for all the pressure to be funny on the podcast. [laughter] SG: It's a great topic to talk about because it's something, at least for me, it's something that comes somewhat naturally in my life. And to be able to reflect back on it, fascinating, and especially thinking about it in the context of resilience, I think it's very interesting to think about humor in that way -- how we use it and incorporate it into our lives. DW: I think that's exactly right. I find, personally, when people describe me as an individual and as a rabbi, they would not say "funny" at the top of the list, the way I raised it up for you, even as you bring many, many other characteristics and attributes into the world. I think as we move forward, I think the richest path is mostly about: How do we enjoy humor, how do we open ourselves to laughter and to joy? In thinking about it from a Jewish perspective, it's very funny because there is this common joke: "How can you sum up Judaism? They tried to kill us, they didn't succeed, let's eat." [laughter] DW: Even that joke has a tragic cast to it, yet I do think that when you look at... There's Jewish history which can be very sad or very challenging. There's Jewish practice which is full of invitations for enjoyment and engaging with pleasure. Even with joy in what we're doing. And then in the year cycle there is the holiday of Sukkot where we are expressly commanded that this is Zeman Simkhatenu, this is the "season of our joy." It is about a deep immersion into, if not humor, then at least a lightness of spirit and embrace of happiness. SG: Yeah, and then I think too what's interesting with the idea of Sukkot being specifically called, as you say, it's Zeman Simkhatenu, that time that we're supposed to be happy. That question is, "Well, what does that mean and why Sukkot specifically?" And I think that part of that comes from the proximity to Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah and the high holidays and the fact that we've just been through this really intense time of self reflection, of heshbon hanefesh, of taking stock of our lives. And we have that imagery of the Book of Life. And we look back on the year that's just passed and the challenges we might have faced. And we make commitments to the year forward. We go through this intense period of time, those 10 days, and then we have Sukkot. And it's like this big relief. I can begin building the sukkah as Yom Kippur ends, that we're immediately to move into this time of [happiness], to find that...I never really celebrated Sukkot much growing up, but as an adult and now as a rabbi, I find such joy in the celebration and I love Sukkot because of that. It feels like a big release, and I think that that's... We haven't raised it to stark contrast, where I think that we have the heaviness of life and the lightness of life and they go together. They go together, and I think that's where humor comes in, because humor's not brought in at the expense of difficult things, but maybe despite it. And that we use humor as a tool, or at least I use humor as a tool. I think we should all use humor as a tool to lighten some of that darkness. Not by way of getting rid of it, but by just recognizing that there's an ephemeral nature to life and that we have to enjoy it. And also because we know that things could be different. DW: I love that image of release. I've never really thought about it that way, but that's what happens when you laugh. You're emptied out in a certain way, that the breath that flows out of you and unlocks kinks in your neck and tightness in your shoulders and it is a real release. And then with the deep intake of breath you get to start again, and that's exactly what you're proposing writ large. SG: And that's... Our Jewish calendar right around that time, that's how it feels, very spiritually. And that's how humor comes into my life at times as well. I think that a lot of times we use humor even in meetings [chuckle] or things where we have a difficult conversation, or we're debating an important issue. Not to make light of the issue, or not to say it's not serious, but sometimes you just need to break the tension, or else you're not going to be able to move forward. And with a little bit of humor and levity, it just eases things and brings things down a bit that we're then able, "Okay, maybe we can see things clearer now, or see things in a different way and move forward." SG: And I've just found it to be... I hadn't thought about it this way before, but it is a tool that we use as humans to cope with difficult situations and not to deny that difficulty exists, but to at least find a way of moving through them. I've officiated at funerals where sometimes we just bring in levity, and it's not to make light of the grief and the loss, but part of remembrance is remembering and being able to laugh at that as well. Because there are those happy times that we're remembering, but also to ease that tension that comes. So life is a mix of all of those things, of the loss and the life and I think humor does that. DW: I think that's exactly right. I agree with the wisdom of what you're saying. I'm just thinking about it as a tool. It's not one of my tools. My brother in law does stand-up. and for him, humor is the first thing he leads with, and it's a way where he builds relationships, and even sometimes digs at people in very funny ways, like that he's a truth teller in a certain way. I never use humor with strangers, because for me, it's my family and my closest people, it's where I'm most comfortable. Partly because I'm not very good at remembering jokes, but also I'm afraid of getting it wrong. [chuckle] DW: And for me, the tools are more about song, or storytelling perhaps, but without the humor. But that said, enjoying humor, opening myself to it, orienting myself to it, is really, it feels very, very important. I was thinking that I have a gratitude practice that I say every morning. I say "Modah ani lefanekha," "I'm grateful to you God for returning my soul to me." I don't necessarily have a laughter practice, or a humor practice though I'm constantly looking for someone to tell me about a funny movie. Every movie [chuckle] I feel like that's on Netflix that says it's a comedy, I always feel betrayed because I'm crying in it. I just want to laugh and laugh. SG: I think there's part of the practice: to seek it out...; it's part of my toolkit, but there are some things that I am not a good song leader. I enjoy music a lot, and I really get into it when I'm not the leader of it. I find it challenging at times to introduce songs, introduce new melodies and I might get it wrong, and I really have to work on it. And humor is something that just comes naturally to me. If I make a decision to introduce a new melody in a service, I really have to work at it and think about it and listen to it. It doesn't really come naturally, but I definitely open myself up too, so that music piece is hard for me. But the opening up to it I think is part of practice as well, so I definitely open myself up to music and enjoy it, and let myself go with it, and I think that seeking out humor in humorous situations and being able to laugh: that is a practice in a way. SG: And being able to see the humor in a situation, to be able to accept the relief that comes at times and not be dismissive of it. I think that is part of the practice. That is part of the practice. It's the humility to be able to go with that -- I think that there's a humility to being able to accept humor is a little bit of letting go of control and I think that that's a part of what it means for humility, is that recognition of the lack of control that we have in life. And to be able to just go with something and to laugh uncontrollably and to find a situation that's humorous and I'm sure we've all been in those times where we start laughing and just can't stop, and what a great release that is. And opening ourselves up to doing that, I think it's really important. It's really important. DW: I think also when you talk about humility, for me, there's laughing at funny situations or the unexpected, or the juxtaposition between what you thought was going to happen and what really did happen, but then there's also the laughing at myself, which I feel like that's been a really important capacity to develop and that too goes with an acceptance of my smallness in the universe. That really, it doesn't all revolve around me and boy, do I find myself in silly situations. Boy, do I place myself in silly situations sometimes. SG: Right, yeah. And the ability to laugh at ourselves is good. That's why I think humor at the expense of other people is not really humor. That's just mean. And it's not because I think that it's... That's exerting power. The setting up, that's not drawing close, that's pushing apart. And so I think that humor is appropriate in some situations and not in others; it might be funny to some, if at the expenses of others, then I think it's really not getting into what humor... That's why I think that as you introduce the theme of resilience, I think that we're resilient people when we're able to create strong bonds with one another, and when we're able to draw close with one another and know that we can connect with and rely on one another. I think the ability to add levity and to bring humor into a situation is really also based on that relationship and trust that comes with making connections with one another. SG: We're able to say funny things. Really, I don't really use humor in a situation that I'm not necessarily comfortable or I'm new, or I'm a stranger, or I'm with new people, because there's not that basis of relationship and trust that comes with it. Once that develops, then it's a way of deepening the relationships and deepening the resilience that we need as humans that comes from being in relationship with one another. DW: For sure, and they say humor is negotiated. There is no such thing as "objectively funny". It happens, as you said, in relationship and it happens in context. And you're exactly right that all of the resilience literature points out that interconnection; that community is absolutely essential to resilience, that even the POWs in Vietnam, where there's a major source of study for how to be resilient. Critical factors had to do with the code that they determined to tap out in order to communicate with each other; that it wasn't that they were resilient in their isolation, it was their connection with each other, even in extreme circumstances that enabled them to withstand and recover significantly from that. So I think you're exactly right, that humor is... It's one of the things that strengthens those bonds ideally. SG: Right, yeah. And one of the other things that I think about when I think about humor, although it's not about humor per se, is just the enumeration in our Jewish literature about what is an act of chesed, what's gemilut hasadim. And you have bikkur holim, calling and visiting the sick and tending to the mourning; and those are the ones that we naturally think of as a reaching out to someone in a time of need. But also included in that list is celebrating with the bride and groom, like celebrating a simkha, and that is an act of chesed, the ability to celebrate and to share joy with one another is an act of chesed; it's an act of loving-kindness; it helps us build those relationships. So it's not just supporting people when they're low, but celebrating when they're high. And I relate that to humor because that's sharing that laughter and not just the sadness. That people want to be able to connect with one another, not just at those difficult times but at the happy times as well. DW: That's lovely. It's part of that whole you were talking about, about the joy and the sorrow being intertwined. I think that's exactly right. SG: I'm not a sociologist of humor but I know that... We see now even in popular culture how Jewish humor is such a thing that's talked about, and a lot of Jewish humor has to do with... Ties in a little bit with the pathos in the challenge of life. When my son was starting to take European history and they were starting off with the Spanish inquisition, one of the first things I did was show him the clip of Mel Brooks during the Spanish inquisition number from History of the World Part 1 and we shared that laugh together. And here's this Jewish comedian making fun of this difficult time of Jewish history in a way that mocking wasn't like celebrating, but it was doing that, and it was almost from a place of survival, that we've made it, looking back at a difficult time in history with a song and dance, and mocking and making fun of it. And with it, an example of that interplay between humor with a little bit of darkness in it. Again, it's a play between light and dark. It sharpens the humor a bit and makes it more real. DW: For sure, when I think about Jewish humor especially in the American landscape, there's always an edge. When I was a kid, quite possibly the most well-known Jew in America was Woody Allen. I don't know if it's true today, but three or four years ago, it might have been Jon Stewart, the comedians... And as we're speaking, Al Franken has a book on the best seller list about his time in the senate. Like there is this particular kind of Jewish humor and a lot of the characters we were talking about... There's certainly a willingness to make fun of oneself and the humility that's there. In most of these instances, it is deeply about connection. When I think about Jon Stewart's project, it's definitely about community. There's a serious effort to build up a certain sensibility than as he brings satire and mocking, and self-mocking. First and foremost, self-mocking to the conversation. SG: Right. There's that self-awareness and self-mocking, and as you said earlier, humility, that comes with that, that I think is really important. I think it's interesting, we were talking earlier about a toolkit. For me too, it's been a label that I've always resisted in a way. I've been told, "Oh, you have a great sense of humor," or when people talk about me, they mention that. So for a long time, that's been a label I resisted, because I felt it was too frivolous or light, or [chuckle] not serious enough. But the more I think about it, it is the way we deal with life, being very self-aware and being able to really cut through difficult situations that I've come to embrace it as a part of that. What I can bring to the work that I do. DW: Well first, let me thank you for being willing to embrace it in this setting, because I wouldn't have known that. When I asked you to come on, you didn't signal any of the ambivalence. So, thanks for that and then, it's fascinating. I know you for your substance. I know you for your teaching. I know all the ways that you bring gravitas into your work and into the world. I don't know that it's like sacred envy or any kind of envy, but there's a bit of awe like, "Isn't that... Hahaha," like you make me laugh. I get the release and it's like, "I could never do that." To know that, that's one of the things that I admire in you and in other people who really are genuinely funny. So maybe as we wind down, I'll ask, "Rabbi, do you have any wisdom to offer for someone like me who enjoys humor and is trying... " Maybe this is too serious a question in and of itself. While I want to cultivate humor, I do really feel like as much as I possibly can, I want to orient myself toward joy, toward affirmative emotions. Do you have any advice for me or others like me about how to open ourselves up to humor, how to achieve that release, how to laugh more?" SG: And that's a wonderful question because -- I was think that, as you were reflecting back and I thank you so much for the podcast and for those kind words. And I think about all the others like you and others who I know have skills that I don't have that I envy as well, in terms of looking at, like I mentioned earlier, the ability to be much more fluid in song is one. And I think that you just need to be able to recognize the humor. And not taking yourself too seriously -- I think that that's what I've come to learn that I think that part of humor, that ability to laugh at oneself and laugh at life. Because life is really difficult at times, and it's very ephemeral at times. SG: The ability to not take anything too, too seriously. There are serious things in life but to recognize that there's always a bit of humor, a little bit of laughter in the difficult times as well. And just seek it out and to look for it and know that we're not dismissing what's serious but we're just finding a way to really recognize, to find the light in the shadows. To be open to that. I wish I knew a magic practice like something that's [inaudible] a worthwhile practice to do, but I think it's just really a mindset. The ability to just be open to it and not take ourselves too seriously and recognize when we have to be serious, but also recognize that we can just let things go a little bit and just being open to that. Just be open to that. DW: Thank you Seth. It's lovely and light and heavy at the same time to have this conversation with you; I really appreciate it. SG: Well thank you. I feel like we haven't got through this without telling any jokes. DW: Let's give it a try. Do you have a joke? SG: Oh, I've got lots of jokes. Yeah, I think that I can... [chuckle] Okay, I'll tell a quick joke. I've used jokes too in teaching, in the sense that I think that there's some... I don't know if they're specifically Jewish jokes are the ones that I know in the context that I think carry some real truth to it. So the one that comes to mind that is real quick is about the flood that happened through the town. And don't stop me if you've heard this one. [laughter] SG: The flood that happens in the town and as the water's rising, the local rabbi is making his way through the waters and the boat comes to him and says, "Rabbi, come on in, we're getting to dry land, come with us." And the Rabbi waves him off and says, "No, no, no, go. Go save somebody else, I'll be okay. God will take care of me." And they argue a bit back and forth but then the boat goes on because the waters continue to rise up to the Rabbi's chin. And another boat comes by and says, "Rabbi, get in the boat, come on we're going to dry land. You can't stay here." And the Rabbi says, "No, no, go, go on save somebody else, God will take care of me." And after a little bit of arguing, they can't stay and they keep going. The waters continue to rise; they're up to the roofs of a house and a helicopter swoops down and drops a ladder and they called, "Rabbi, get up, come, we have to get to dry land." And the Rabbi waves them off saying, "No, no, go, go save somebody else. I'll be okay, God will protect me." So the helicopter goes off to look for more people to rescue. SG: Meanwhile the waters continue to rise and the Rabbi drowns. The Rabbi's up in heaven and he goes to God and he's furious because all this time he spent living a pious life, he thought that in his moment of need God would come down and protect him and so he goes right up to God and says, "God, what happened? There I was, I was in this flood, I needed your help, I needed you to come down and save me. What happened?" And God looks at him and says, "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more do you want?" [laughter] SG: And it's one of my favorites because I think that there's a theological lesson in there as well. We talked about the light and darkness. I think there's sometimes a bit of theology in humor as well, is the ability to just see where our blessings are and to keep our eyes open and our hearts open for what comes because what we're expecting might not come in the way or a form that we think that is. Yeah, that's my joke for today. RW: It's a great joke. It reminded me of my joke which I don't think has necessarily any lessons from it, but I'm famous for forgetting the punch line and losing my way in the middle of a joke, which is why I don't use humor that much. At least that kind of humor. [chuckle] RW: A man has a cat that he absolutely loves and he's going away on vacation and he hires a cat sitter. He's away for a couple of weeks and he comes home and the cat sitter says, "I'm really sorry to tell you this but your cat died while you were away." And the man is so incredibly shocked and says, "I'm so sad about my cat but that's not how you should have told me," and the cat sitter says, "Well, how should I have told you?" And he said, "Well you should have called me up one day and said, "The cat's climbed up a tree," and then you should have called me the next day and said "The cat's stuck on the tree," and then you should have worked up to the fact that the cat got sick on the tree and died and that's how you should have told me." And the guy says, "Okay, I'm really sorry for your loss," and they part ways. And the next summer the guy's going away again and he calls the same person to do the house sitting and about three days into his two week vacation the house sitter calls up and says, "So, your grandmother is stuck up in a tree." [laughter] SG: That was great. What's interesting... So I'll just say, that the both of our jokes that we chose off the top of our heads had to do with death. [chuckle] DW: Yeah, that is really interesting. SG: I don't know about you but I think that there's something there. We weren't mocking it but there's something that's adding a little bit of... I think that's where the edge comes a little bit. And I think that we're... Humor, we know that that's just a part of life and there's a bit of the resilience in that, to be able to, at this moment we're not facing it immediately but recognizing that aspect of life and to be able to take a moment and just kinda laugh about it. That's really interesting; that's where our minds went. DW: Yeah. The whole time I've been talking I've been thinking about there's some saying about the difference between comedy and tragedy. SG: Comedy is tragedy plus time. DW: Oh, that's it. That's exactly it. That those jokes kind of collapse it a little bit, that they are about...there's the tragedy of the death, or not, but not all deaths are tragic, but they... SG: Well, but I wouldn't use that joke at a funeral, but I think that there's a different aspect when we're in a place where we can look back and reflect on life and death then that comes into play. If my joke was about recognizing where our blessings might come from, I think your joke was about how we incorporate news, or how we communicate it, or how we... [chuckle] Because that's the absurdity of the joke is that Jewish... [chuckle] With applying one scenario to another scenario and in terms of how we share information or the relationship between the two people there as we were talking about. So there's really the whole event, and death in general, with a guy's relationship with his grandmother and cats and... [laughter] So yeah, it's a lot there. DW: Yeah. Oh, Seth, this is great. Thank you so much. SG: Thanks again, I really am honored. [music] 25:36 RW: Please visit our website at www.jewishrecon.org and follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. This podcast was created and hosted by Rabbi Deborah Waxman. Production and editing by Rachael Burgess. Web support provided by Rabbi Michael Fessler. Social Media and communication support by Bob Bershad, Victoria Guentter, and Bryan Schwartzman. Our theme song was composed by Chana Rothman. [music]