Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
I'm Rabbi Deborah Waxman, and I'm so happy to welcome you to Hashivenu, a podcast about Jewish teachings on resilience. I'm really happy to be back with you for a new episode. We had such plans for Hashivenu this past year. The take on resilience that we wanted to focus on this year was to bring you into some of the incredible conversations and experiences that I have in my leadership role and to talk to activists and CEOs and thinkers who are really helping to shape the Jewish community in the world today with a set of reflections on priorities and also on resilience. And the world really has been a demanding world this year. The one episode that we were able to record was scheduled for mid-October. The world changed after October 7th. We went ahead and recorded that wonderful conversation with Yoshi Silverstein, to talk about embodiment, which I think serves us really well at this time. And we've been on hiatus since then.
So very happy to come back at least for a little while. I'm going to take a short sabbatical over the summer, so probably not much over the summer, but we're hoping to get a couple of episodes out before then. One of the things that prompted us to go ahead today is that on April 3rd, there will be a webinar that is celebrating the anniversary of 10 years of my serving as president and CEO of Reconstructing Judaism. The event is called, When Jewish Women Lead: Activating People and Possibilities Through Turbulent Times, and it's going to feature a panel of three extraordinary women who serve as CEOs of impactful and important organizations in the Jewish community. And there's a link to the registration in our show notes and you can also find it on the events page of Reconstructing Judaism. And I'd be so honored if you join us.
What we wanted to do is, that's going to be a really, really rich conversation and it's going to be somewhat abbreviated because that program on April 3rd is only going to be an hour. And I've invited one of the panelists to join today for a little bit more of an expansive conversation, so you'll have a taste of what's coming. I am so delighted to welcome Cheryl Cook, who is the chief executive officer of Avodah, and we're going to talk about what it means to be in leadership on our own and together. Cheryl, welcome.

Cheryl Cook:
Thank you so much, Deborah. It's really a pleasure to be here.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
So before we came on to record, we were talking about how we like this conversation to be inviting people in to listen into our really good conversations. And over the, I think it's nine years that you and I have known each other, we've had so many rich and thoughtful and laughter filled and tear filled conversations about being in the world, about trying to make an impact, about how to lead effectively and how to be full humans as we're also CEOs. And so, I would love to have some of that with some folks listening in.

Cheryl Cook:
That sounds wonderful. And I want even say the title of the conversation next week, When Women Lead, one of the things that's been really powerful for me has been that hevrutah with you, Deborah, and really figuring out what it means for me to lead as a woman, for us to form a network of people, for me to have a network of people to rely on. And so you've really been so much part of that through great times, but also through the really hard times of the last many, many years that I've been leading an organization.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
Yeah, we're on largely the same timeline. I think for me, I'm in my 11th year and you're in your ninth or your 10th, right?

Cheryl Cook:
I just started my 10th year.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
First of all, congratulations. I mean, I do know how, it's huge. It's huge. I think we should share how we met and how that hevrutah started. Do you want to tell the story?

Cheryl Cook:
Sure. I believe we met through the Jewish Social Justice Roundtable. We were both CEOs, probably new in our roles or newish in our roles. And I think there's two things that come to mind that I remember about our early days together. One is that we would often be at meetings of incredible Jewish justice leaders in our country and the topic of Israel-Palestine was not talked about. The third rail of our community and certainly today, with everything going on, really hard and we would end up in the corner talking about how we were going to support ourselves, our participants, our staff, what conversations we really needed to have that we weren't seeing anywhere in our community, including in our beloved field. So, that really is one of the first things that I think about for us meeting.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
Right. I think that's right, that in that sector, at that time, the decision was for many of the organizations that they focused exclusively in the American landscape and they understood that, as you said, it was the third rail, so they just weren't going to talk about it. And neither you nor I had that option, and neither you nor I thought that was advisable. And we were trying to both support each other and figure it out, and also supportively nudge the sector to change. And I think the world changed, but also, and I think we helped to make that change in our sector.

Cheryl Cook:
I think so, and I hope so, and I want to name that our sector is continuing to change. And even when we think about how Israel-Palestine shows up our organizations, it does look differently based on our missions. But I do think that we were really both clear that we needed to be having those conversations, that we needed to really think that through, and we couldn't just build a wall. That, that wall wasn't real and it was creating a challenge. And that there was really good reason that our sector had gotten to that point because Israel is definitely part of every part of our Jewish community. Almost every organization always had a big piece of its work or grant making in Israel. And so in a lot of ways, I think our sector grew up alongside that saying, and Jews really care about what's happening in this country, and we need to play a role there.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
Right. I should clarify for listeners, I lead a religious organization with a lot of different expressions. We were never not talking about Israel. We were always, we have someone who's portfolio includes service as an Israel Specialist, and we require our rabbinical students to spend time studying in Israel because we understand that the project of building a primary Jewish civilization in the land to be a major project of the modern Jewish era, as challenging as it is. But we also saw that because one of the things we would say is, "For many decades, Israel was the great consensus issue in the Jewish community." And as that consensus really started to break down within synagogues, people found that they would fight about Israel. So, the choice was often made to not talk about it.
So, it wasn't the same kind of red line, but definitely the capacity to stay together in conversation and in community across difference. That's a newer choice I think, than, "Oh, let's just not talk about it. Let's just segment it off in a way to keep this from blowing up in our face in any kind of painful way." I think that that's what I remember those conversations in the corner of conferences rooms. I also think about a trip to the border, to the Mexican-American border that was organized by HIAS and the Anti-Defamation League, right?

Cheryl Cook:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which was really incredible. I actually think about three things when I think about our early days and really the ongoing conversation. One is Israel and Israel-Palestine. Second is that trip to the border and really thinking about immigration in our country and what's going on and how do we as Jews need to address it, have an obligation to address it, how are we part of the solution that is not yet here, but we really need a solution because people are really struggling, dying, oppressed, and we are part of this country. And I think the third thing that I really think about is racial justice work that we have both been thinking about and working on individually and in our organizations. And part of our early relationship was around doing that hevrutah together to continue our own learning around racial justice. So all three of those, I love it, because they're all really some of the most important issues in our country and in our community, and they all are pieces that led us to have this friendship that we have.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
I think that's right. And I would say the gender piece is, it wasn't the abiding thing, it wasn't the primary thing. And it weaves its way through everything. And a lot of times the conversations on these precise topics also would be about the leadership stance of taking, both within our organizations or beyond our organizations, or the pushes and the pulls or being a sandwich generation. I'm half a sandwich, I don't have kids in the house, but definitely have had, we've known each other through the death of one of my parents. And you are a sandwich generation and live in this, I hope it's okay for me to say this, this extraordinary multi-generational family and the ways that you've navigated this. So, also talking about the ways that it works and the ways that it's hard and the sources of support we find. And then COVID, and then COVID. We were doing all...

Cheryl Cook:
I know. Well, there's this great, we've talked about this before, but Maurice Mitchell wrote this beautiful article about leading and leading right now. And one of the things that I remember him talking about is how hard it is to lead right now, but also how a lot of the people who are in an incredible way showing up as leaders now are women, people of color, and so not only is it hard to lead now, but the people who are leading us, you are the first not only, I think, woman leading a religious denomination, but also Queer person leading a religious denomination. And that's incredible. And you're leading at an incredibly challenging time. And so I think all of those about what it means to lead generally and then what it means to lead now, is something that we've been unpacking for years. And I feel like I'm excited to pick that apart a little bit right now.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
Right. And I think just that the framing of this podcast is about resilience, and I do think that the resilience that we have given the locations out of which we emerge, it does require tending to our own resilience in order to get up and do this again and again and again.

Cheryl Cook:
Well, can we just name the things that all of us know? I came into leadership in early 2015, and by the end of 2015, we knew that President Trump was going to be our president. We lived through chaotic four years, such chaotic four years. The movement for Black Lives had really moved forward a platform very early, I think in the first year of my leadership, which was both incredible and challenging for our Jewish community. And then we faced the pandemic, the racial justice, this shift in more Americans stepping up for racial justice in particular ways after the killing of Eric Garner. And then we really, and now we're at the war between Israel and Gaza. And so, I just want to name, in a short period of time in the nine years that I've been leading, the close to 11 years that you've been leading, that is just a huge amount to navigate for all of us in our world and a huge amount to figure out. What's this mean for us as a Jewish community and for the people that we serve?

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
Yeah, I mean, yes, thank you so much for listing all of it. I'll add a few more things in, just to pull it back about gay marriage. That I was in the process of preparing for my interviews to move into this position when marriage equality was affirmed by the Supreme Court, which was amazing. So in my brain, Christina and I had had a chuppah in 2004, we're coming up to our 20th anniversary celebration, but we made plans to have a civil ceremony. And my wife came out in 1969. She never imagined marriage equality. And so, it was a really big deal that we had this civil ceremony in the summer of 2013, while I was in the process of applying for this position. I started formally on January 1st, 2014. And so, that incredible celebration and watching the backlash to that and watching rights be taken away and also the fall of Roe and watching women's bodily autonomy be under threat.
And I'll just raise up that, especially given the kinds of things that Avodah focuses on, in that time period that we've just traced the level of income inequality, it keeps widening exponentially. And so, there's the dates on the calendar that we can mark and there's the more cultural, the vicissitudes of the culture. It has been... I mean, what it's done is really helped me clarify at every single moment how important and urgent this work is and how grateful I am to have this bully pulpit and this incredible community around me. But, boy, does it require a lot of fortitude.

Cheryl Cook:
Yeah, and I have to say, that word even, bully pulpit, I think it's not a bully pulpit. I think you are laying out vision, you are laying out the kind of world that Reconstructing Judaism is trying to create. I'm laying out the kind of world Avodah wants to create and we're really, I hope people come with us and coming with others. So, I actually want to say that's exciting. The work you're doing is exciting. The work we're doing is exciting. We're part of this field that I think is on the front lines of the kind of Jewish community and world that we all want to create. And I am so excited about that vision. Can I actually just, because I didn't say it early, just say a word about what Avodah does? And maybe-

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
Please, please.

Cheryl Cook:
I've been leading Avodah for nine years and our vision is that Judaism and the Jewish community contribute to realizing a more just and equitable world. And the way that we do that is we invest in emerging and current Jewish leaders, people who are Jews, we invest in people who want to lead justice work in the Jewish community and beyond the Jewish community. And when I say the word leadership, I also just want to say I don't mean traditional leadership.
Some of the people that we invest in go on to lead organizations or justice initiatives and that's incredible, but we're really talking about how we are teaching that you lead in lots of different ways and that sometimes stepping up and being in charge is necessary and sometimes supporting other people's leadership and really leading the way in that way and showing that we need to support others' leadership. And so, we are really teaching those skills and excited about having a generation of people coming out with real skills around what is justice work, how do we do it well, how do we do it well as Jews. And then help really create change in our country.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
You do such important and impactful work, and I know it from moving through the world in general, and I know it because some of your graduates go on to become rabbinical students. So, I know it from teaching them and seeing the level of skills and the level of sophistication that they have when they come in because of their Avodah experience.

Cheryl Cook:
I love that. I love that. Well, do you want to say something, because a lot of our conversation, I think there's so much we could cover, but I'm curious, as a woman leader of Reconstructing Judaism for all these years, what are the things you think you brought to the table that were really about women's leadership that do have to do with gender? Because I think that it's such an interesting question. What is gender and what is it? What is just Deborah, who's an incredible leader?

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
It's such an interesting question. I have to say, the question about, what do I think I bring as a leader? Not just the straight, the question that I get asked, not the way you asked it, I would say has to do with the intersection of my absolute passion and commitment for a Reconstructionist approach and my understanding that it is incredibly vitalizing and it's muscular in both empowering us as individuals and strongly encouraging, if not mandating, us to be in community with this justice lens to take the particulars in the service of universal goals.
And I see really clearly, and I'm constantly inspired by the questions that Reconstructionists ask and the communities that we build to try to formulate answers even as the answers are constantly changing, constantly evolving. And the fact that I have that and that it comes with a lot of different skills I can bring to bring that passion to life. That's how I would probably answer that question. Like stamm [in and of itself] if it just came in as a question.
I would say that it's the feminism. It's the feminism. And I think that Reconstructionism emerged out of the left wing of the conservative movement. And that's where I grew up. I grew up in the left wing of the conservative movement. I didn't hear the term Reconstructionism until I was a junior in college. And I didn't learn about the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College until after I was out of college. And the more I read about it, the more it seemed to me like it was either an expression of feminist Judaism or that it was completely aligned with a feminist vision. And by that, I understand feminism to be a liberatory movement for all people. I don't understand feminism to be about women. I understand it to be about looking at the ways that patriarchal systems have held back and held down all peoples, men as well, even as most men have a certain amount of privilege and some men have a tremendous amount of privilege.
And look, my pathway to become a rabbi and my pathway to become the president of this organization was significantly cleared by male allies who were feminists and who did believe in gay rights. And I am so profoundly grateful to them, and I'm so profoundly grateful to the... I mean, when I started rabbinical school, this is a huge year for me because I also, it's 25 years since I graduated from rabbinical school, so it's 10 years as president and 20-

Cheryl Cook:
Congratulations.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
It's really, it's very, very moving. And I'm getting along with my cohort, I'm going to get a Doctor of Divinity, which is what rabbis who've been out for 25 years are eligible for. And I think it's okay to say this, I had proposed that I wait until after I'm no longer president because I actually give the presentation and sign the certificate. But lots of other people felt otherwise and we did a lot of research and learned that it was kosher, and I'm very grateful for it, because very moving to get it.

Cheryl Cook:
And haven't you been there 25 years and you actually have, right? Since you graduated, it's been 25 years and so that is really exciting, to actually mark that in that way, along with your cohort.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
It is. It is. One of the reasons, actually, is that we're doing the separate event on April 3rd is to make certain that at our graduation ceremony in mid-May, the focus is on the cohort and not on me, that I don't inadvertently take up too much space. And so, having the conversation with you and the other amazing panelists, Cindy Greenberg, who's the CEO of Repair The World, and Ilana Aisen, who is the CEO of JPro, that feels like it's a great way to talk about the impact of all of this and then also to make certain that in May, this celebration really is of my classmates from 1999.

Cheryl Cook:
Which is a real feminist approach, that you're thinking about that question of how much space you take up at a celebration of you. I just want to actually name that. And as someone who has learned through my whole life that as a woman, I shouldn't take up a lot of space, I also want to mean that sometimes I think a lot about when do I step in and when do I need to take up space and when do I step back and give others a place to take up space? And so, even in my leadership, I think so much about those questions. I think a lot about the models that I worked under, many, many incredible people, and I am also trying to forge a very different model of leadership than I ever worked under. And so for me, that's been fascinating.
You know this, Deborah, but I, in my whole career, 30 years working in the Jewish community, I never worked for a CEO or executive director who was a woman, ever. So it's not that, I mean, I worked under, again, incredible people, but I never had a model of someone who looked like me or who had some of the same needs or issues that I was having, the lived experiences that I've had. And so, when I think about being a woman leader, I think a lot about both, how do I create an organization that will meet the needs of women coming after me who can then step into leadership? How do I model a kind of leadership that might look different from other leaderships I've worked under? And for me, that really has to do with collaboration, with creating spaces for voices other than mine. And I've had male leaders do that sometimes, and where I actually am very aware of, I'm serving a lot of women. I have a lot of women and women identifying people who come through Avodah.
I'm very proud of that. Avodah is not just for women, we are for everybody who wants to work on justice. I actually think it's incredible that so many women want to work on justice and I want to support them. And I'm excited about playing that role. And we could talk about this, but I'm a parent and I started as a CEO with young kids.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
Young kids.

Cheryl Cook:
I never worked for a CEO who was a woman, and I never worked for a CEO who had young kids at home while they were a CEO. And so for me, both of those things also come to bear on how I do my job and how I hope to pave the way for an amazing group of other people to come in who might want to be parents or who are parents, who can do this role as parents.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
Yeah, I struggle with this a lot and you've heard me say this, I didn't not have children so that I would finish my doctorate. I didn't not have children so that I could take on this work. I'm not certain I would've done either of those if we did have kids. And whatever, it's a long story, it's a story that has a lot of sweetness and a lot of sorrow to it. And I feel very grateful for the work that I've been able to do, but I don't know that I'm doing what you are doing. I'm not certain. I'm the CEO of a merged organization that previously had two CEOs and I really was, we were in addition to the long list of what was going on, there were questions about our relevance and questions about our vitality when I started. And I just wanted to do everything I possibly could to demonstrate how I thought a Reconstructionist approach could offer the world or go down trying.
But that has not led to sustainability. And I don't know that the way you parent, I don't know that bringing that kind of intention and care and presence in your kid's life, I don't, it doesn't... How I'm doing this job doesn't align particularly well to that. And that's something I think I give myself pretty low marks on.

Cheryl Cook:
I think that there's lots of different models of what leadership looks like, and I actually believe your making choices that fit for your lifestyle and that fit for the role you've stepped into. And you also, I've seen so many different kinds of models. I look at Rabbis Lauren Holtzblatt and Aaron Alexander down in D.C., who are co-rabbis of an organization. Or Jess [Greenblatt Seeley] and Meir [Lakein] who are co-executive directors or CEOs of JOIN-

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
JOIN for Justice.

Cheryl Cook:
I'm blown away by new models and so I would just say back to you, is I think you are leading in the way that has made sense for you probably, hopefully. And maybe there's ways to change that, but you are leading in that way. For me, I've had to really lead in a different way than some of the models I worked for and I worked for, before this job, I worked for an incredible man who founded an organization, devoted his life to it, traveled so much. And when I stepped into, I was nervous about could I step into the role of CEO and actually do my organization justice when I also knew that I wanted to spend time with my being a mom. And also, that is important to me. And lots of people have different roles that they want to play as parents. For me, I wanted to be present with them and I wanted to lead this organization and be a great ambassador out in the world. And so, I've gotten this opportunity to create that kind of balance.
And one of the ways I've done that is I send other people out to speak and teach. I do it, but I send other people out to be at conferences, to talk about Avodah, the lead initiatives. It's not just me and I travel, but I am not on the road all the time. I love traveling. I love visiting other communities. I love being at conferences. It lights me up. I love getting to talk about Avodah and I feel really proud that it's not just about me. And so, going back to that comment that we were talking about before, if Avodah is going to have the kind of impact we're going to have, it is because I have incredible staff, and a board, and participants, and alumni, and they all have roles to play. And if we can lean in together, I think we can do it better.
So, I feel like I'm still iterating on all of that, but even the way that translates into policies and culture at Avodah, the way that when we hire people, we are also paying attention to what are some of the needs they have. They might not be parents, but they might have... I have one staff person who is starting her own business and she loves the outdoors and she works, I think it's 30 hours a week. And then with the other time, she's really starting her own business. And she pitched that to us. And I'm so excited that she can actually bring something that she wants to bring into being and she's passionate about Avodah and loves and is great at her job.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
That's so great. That's so great. And I think it's also like, to pay attention to, as the organization changes, not only the individuals, but in the life cycle. I mean, there's a lot of diversity across the Reconstructionist movement. Reconstructionism was founded on a commitment to diversity, but the one thing, and so people with different interests and how Reconstructionism was brought to light in different communities. But one thing that unites all Reconstructionists is that they want a higher profile for the Reconstructionist Movement, and they want greater recognition for the impact that we've had on the world for our work on egalitarianism and LGBT inclusion and recognizing that Jews partner with non-Jews are not interested in exiting the Jewish community. And so, one of the things that I found when I started is that people were complaining that we didn't have seats at tables in rooms we weren't even going into. And so my first couple of years was going into as many of those rooms as possible and also traveling around to all the congregations, as many of the congregations as I could.
And over the years, figuring out which rooms we want to be in and then being in the room and then increasingly getting seats at the table. And now that has happened, there's a lot more space for me to hand it off to other people. It doesn't need to be the CEO, it can be other faces. And I see that really, really clearly. And I am really, really anxious. Like you, I love to travel, but I don't want to do it all the time. And I want to set up a sustainable organization so that it's not just about me. I used to say, "I want to be a rock star, not because I want to be a rock star, but because that will be helpful to Reconstructing Judaism." And I joke that I'm like, "I'm not a rock star, but I'm a solid opening act." And the goal is to make certain, the focus is on Reconstructing Judaism.
That's why it's, actually, it's a lot easier when we're talking about different ways of inhabiting roles. It's a lot easier for me to take the light that's shined onto me and reflect it onto others. Actually, I do really understand it to be, I mean, beyond role. I also use the religious language of being a k'li kodesh, of being a vessel. And what I'm really trying to do is to allow stuff to kind of flow through me in the public stuff. In the private stuff, I understand I'm the CEO and I present the budget that I co-create with the amazing Rabbi Amber Powers, our executive vice president. But in terms of the public stuff, I'm trying to channel, I'm trying the focus to be on the issue and the focus to be on the community, the focus to be on other people.

Cheryl Cook:
I know we're at the last few minutes and I think there's one other thing that I've been thinking about that I just want to hold up as I think about women's leadership, is that I obviously know what it's like to be a woman and I know what it's like to step into leadership, the good, the hard with kids, and as you said, I live in a community with my mother-in-law and my sister-in-law and my nephew. So, I actually live in this amazing house where I have both a lot of support and a lot of responsibility. And I cherish that.
I think a lot about the next generation and bringing more Jews of color into leadership and how I'm very aware that there are some incredible people who have paved the way already and who are paving the way and who are in leadership. And I really hope, just like I never worked for a female CEO, and here I am, that in the next few years, many years that we're going to see many more Jews of color and more Queer Jews and more people who have been disenfranchised from our community actually step into these central roles in our community. And I just want to shout out that many already have and are, there's some incredible people, but there is so much more work to do.
And so I want to see-

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
So much more work to do.

Cheryl Cook:
... part of our role is being great allies.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
Yeah, exactly.

Cheryl Cook:
And making sure that we're thinking about that even as we're doing our work. And we're continuing to iterate on that at Avodah and figure out how do we do that while as an organization, there's some places we do it well, some places we're still on a journey and we'll always be on a journey and I'm on my journey. But I want to just name that, as I think about women's leadership, I think so much about what I've been able to bring into the world and how do I really hold that space to make sure that now there's space for many, many others who could bring so much and are bringing so much to our community.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
I think the role of being an ally, it's so important to me, because as I was saying, when I started rabbinical school 25 years ago, there was only 20, women had only been able to be rabbis for 25 years. And the reform and then the Reconstruction Movement, it was new. And I am just so grateful for all the people who cleared the way for me and I take really seriously what do I need to be doing for those who are behind me. That's about the instructional ways about the allyship and also I've been really enjoying mentoring a lot, one-on-one. It's been really, very, very meaningful to me of late.
I think we do have to wind down. And the last thing I want to wind down is, first of all, to thank you, thank you, thank you. I asked for you to help me celebrate April 3rd, and you said yes immediately, and I asked, "Would you do this podcast?" And you said yes immediately-

Cheryl Cook:
Deborah, I'll always say yes to you.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
I know, I will do it for you as well. I know, but that's the place, the thing I want to make, this is holy work. This is important work. This is lonely work. And the general thing I want to say to everybody is friendship and mutual support and how essential it is to have that. And I just want to say to you, Cheryl, what a blessing it is to be on this journey with you.

Cheryl Cook:
I feel the same. And community is what nourishes me. And so, this friendship and the community of CEOs that I've been able to lean on, and you are one of the first that I call, is one of the biggest pieces that keeps me in this work. It's so important. Thank you so much for having me. I really feel so honored.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
The honor.

Cheryl Cook:
Can I do a shout-out for what we're recruiting for right now? Is that possible just to say something?

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
For sure.

Cheryl Cook:
Great. We're recruiting right now at Avodah for our Jewish Service Corps, which is a 26-year-old program, but still really important and relevant today. So if you are, or you know people in the age of 21 to 26 who either are just graduating college or are in that age range, we are looking for people who want to spend a year doing deep service, justice learning in a community of other Jews. So, please pass that along, apply. We have a lot of information on our website. We live in a community with other Jews, spend a year working in one of the hardest issues in our country and on immigration, criminal justice, so much more and learn together. And we really are looking for people who want to spend their lives leaning in on social justice in our country. Thank you.

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:
Thank you so much for joining us today for this wonderful conversation with Cheryl Cook, the CEO of Avodah. And if you're interested in learning more about many things that we've spoken about, especially about Avodah, you can find more about them at Avodah.net. And you can also look on Hashivenu's website, which is Hashivenu.fireside.fm. Please, it would be so helpful if you would subscribe and rate and review us in Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Rabbi Deborah Waxman, and you've been listening to Hashivenu, Jewish teachings on resilience. (Singing).