Deborah Waxman: Hello, I'm Rabbi Deborah Waxman. Weclome to Hashivenu: Jewish Teachings on Resilience. A quick note before we begin: we recorded this special episode on November 15, 2018 in front of live audience at the Reconstructing Judaism convention. This was our first movement-wide convention in eight years, and more than 700 people travelled to Philadelphia for an incredible four days of learning, and connection, praying, and making and listening to music, and celebrating. For more on Convention, you can visit https://www.reconstructingjudaism.org/convention. It was a wonderful experience to expand the interview to actively include listeners in Hashivenu. For this reason, the episode is a little longer than our usual podcasts. Once we finish the interview, we open the floor to to questions from the audience, and we're including that audience question-and-answer, which starts around the 26 minute mark. I also want to post an audio trigger warning. I interviewed Susan Levine, an extraordinary person and a member of the Board of Governors of Reconstructing Judaism. Susan and I discussed resilience in the aftermath of a suicide attempt. Susan is wise and grounded and deeply reflective, both about her attempts to end her life, and about her decision to live with integrity and beauty afterward. We want listeners to be prepared for what's coming. I hope you enjoy both my interview with Susan Levine and the questions from the audience. It was a really wonderful experience recording it. Happy Hanukkah! [Music] Susan Levine: So, I don't have that advantage that people who take a lot of pills, and then don't die, and nobody needs to know unless they tell them. I don't have that. I can never forget that I tried to kill myself, because all I have to do is look at my body and I know what I did. [Music] Deborah Waxman: I'm Rabbi Deborah Waxman, and I'm so happy to welcome you to a special live broadcast of Hashivenu: Jewish Resources on Resilience. We are live streaming from the Reconstructing Judaism convention in Philadelphia, and we will ultimately release this as a regular episode. I'm grateful to Sam Wachs, our regular producer, for his double duty today both recording and streaming. And I'm so happy to welcome my guest today, Susan Levine. Deborah Waxman: Susan is my friend and she is a member of the board of governors of Reconstructing Judaism. She's had a tremendous career in finance in both the public and the private sector. She worked at the United States Treasury, she worked on Wall Street. For many years Susan commuted back and forth between New York and San Francisco. In 2015 Susan was in an accident in which she lost an arm and a leg, becoming a double amputee. Deborah Waxman: So today in this special episode, we're going to talk about resilience, and we're going to talk about how Jewish practices and Jewish community have been resources for Susan. Welcome Susan, and thank you so much for being here. Susan Levine: Thank you. Thank you Deborah. Deborah Waxman: So, I'd like to ask you to begin if you would share with our listeners your story. Susan Levine: Thank you Deborah, it's great to be here. I'm loving this convention so far. So, I'm in the beginning stages of writing a book. I've never written a book before, I never thought I would write a book. But, three years ago, after my accident, several people visited me in the hospital and said, "You should write about this." And I was like, "I don't have anything to say." Then, I began speaking a bit to people about what happened, and I began to feel like, "Well, if I'm willing to speak about what happened and it's pretty dramatic what happened, which I'll give you a sense of in a minute, then maybe I'm ready to write a book. Susan Levine: And I have written a book proposal, and I'm meeting with an agent in a couple of weeks. And I have a co-writer, a woman named Iris Krasnow, who's really more my writing mentor, who is based in Maryland in Annapolis and has written a lot of books. And it was really her idea for me to tell the story, and so now I've agreed to do that. So, I thought to set the stage, I would read a few pages from the overview of my book proposal. And the working title of my book is, "I'm Still Susan: How I Failed to Commit Suicide." Got you, right? Audience: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Susan Levine: On November 11th, 2015 at five o'clock pm, I jumped on to the subway tracks at the 86th and Lexington stop in New York City. I lay down on the tracks and waited for the train to run over me. While the conductor tried to stop the train, it was too late. And the train mangled my right arm and my left leg. I was alert in the ambulance on the way to the hospital engaged in cheerful conversation with the EMT. I then passed out. I don't remember any of this. Susan Levine: Ten days later I was awaken from an anesthetic induced coma. I remember hearing my brother Bill, chairman of orthopedics at Columbia University Presbyterian Hospital say to me, "Susie," (that's what he calls me). "You are in the surgical intensive care unit of Weill Cornell Hospital. You have been in an accident." I responded, "Did I do something stupid?" He answered, "You will be okay." Susan Levine: All I remember that day is that I was in incredible pain, and I didn't know why. I do remember the attending doctor, and the consulting psychiatrist, Dr. John Barnhill, visiting me wearing big smiles. Dr. Barnhill told me he would tell me what happened the next day when I was less groggy. On November 21 surrounded by my husband Jim, Bill and his wife Jill, and my sister Serry, another family doctor who had flown in from California. Susan Levine: The consulting psychiatrist Dr. Barnhill asked me, "Do you remember the accident?" I responded, "What accident?" He said in a calm voice, "You jumped in front of a train, and you lost an arm and a leg." "Which arm?" After telling me I had lost my right arm I responded with, "Oh shit." I didn't really focus on what had happened to my leg other than asking which leg I had lost. But I remember me being more concerned about having this very nice doctor like me. Susan Levine: So I said, "I am not the kind of person who would do this to my family and my friends." Serry, my sister, later told me that she was horrified that I didn't say "the kind of person who would do this to myself". This is not a book about suicide, though I clearly attempted suicide. Not once, but twice, and I failed both times. The first time was six months earlier, when I went to the ledge of my 30 story apartment building in New York City, and sat there contemplating jumping off. This is also not a book about depression. Susan Levine: While I was certainly depressed at various points in my life, rather this is a book about hope and navigating a successful and productive life while living with deep sadness. My purpose in writing this book is to try to answer two questions. One, how does a seemingly happy, successful, engaged person who has always managed to overcome any obstacle suddenly decide to take her life? And two, having made such a decision and failed, how does one move on? Susan Levine: This is a book about living with intense sadness, yet managing to carry on. Having lived when I wanted to die, I bear the permanent scars of missing limbs that serve to remind me that my life is not yet meant to be over. My goal in writing this book is to not only answer those questions, but to be a book that can help those facing depression and suicide find a sympathetic voice which illuminates that it is possible to get to the other side of depression and suicidal instincts, and live a full and productive life. Susan Levine: I recently spoke to the Sonoma Valley Rotary Club (I'm from Sonoma). A young girl in attendance asked me, "Being a double amputee, how are you able to live every day?" That was a good question. I told her that after waking up from my accident and discovering that I had lost two limbs, I had two choices. One, stay in bed with a cover over my head, or two, live an optimistic life. Susan Levine: I told her I've chosen the latter. Had it not been for the recent suicides of Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain, where such questions seemingly cannot be answered, I might have chosen to be less public about my life, but these are important questions. And there are not many people who have survived a suicide attempt like mine, who are willing to be so public. Thank you. Deborah Waxman: So, I believe we've talked ... I visited Susan and I knew Susan before the accident and I visited her in the hospital, and we've talked many times. And I've read the book proposal and it's so powerful to hear you tell it as an arc and as a narrative. And we're going to dive in a little bit. Our focus today is going to be mostly about resilience. Some of it about physical disability, some of them about mental illness, about living with deep sadness. Deborah Waxman: The American Psychological Association defines resilience as, and I'm quoting here, "the process of adapting well in the face of adversity, trauma, tragedy, threats and even significant sources of stress." And there's a metaphor by George Valiant that likens it to a twig with a fresh and green living core that springs back and continues to grow after encountering pressure. And I'm reading these definitions both for our shared understanding, but also because I encountered them ... I got these definitions from books that you recommended to me. Deborah Waxman: When we were speaking on Zoom, I think you were back in California at that point, about a year after the accident, and I told you that I was thinking about launching this podcast on resilience. So, thinking back on those definitions you, in so many ways, I want to say embody, that's a loaded word in this context. And you've also said that, yes, you have resilience and that resilience doesn't keep you safe. It's not enough. Susan Levine: So, I joke with my psychiatrist who is Dr. Barnhill, the doctor that told me what happened to me. And we Zoom twice a week because he's in New York and I'm in California. And I joke with him, and I say, "I can write these books on resilience. I know what it takes to live a resilient life. I'm engaged in the world, I serve a nonprofit board, I have friends from every walk of my life. I have a wonderful family and great relationships with them, I have intellectual and cultural interests, I've started two book clubs. I go to the ballet, I go to theater, I'm very physically active even before the accident, and now I bike, I swim, I do cross-fit, I do yoga. Susan Levine: I lead a very spiritual life. I'm a member of two synagogues, I was a member of two different synagogues before the accident, I'm in a meditation group. So, when I read these things about what does it take, well I do all that. And I think one of the reasons I was able to convince so many people that they didn't have to worry about me, is that what they saw -- except those people who noticed in the couple of weeks before the accident that I wasn't doing so well -- they saw this person who lives this amazing life. And when I was in the hospital people would visit me. One friend said to me, "Susan, I've known you for 35 years, I never would have guessed that you would have done this." Deborah Waxman: I think I want to take on upon something that you and I discussed yesterday, that even as you speak with your psychiatrist twice a week and you are on medications that support your well-being, one of the things that you said to me that so, you alluded to it in the written remarks that you ... it's living with intense sadness. Deborah Waxman: This is not something that's behind you, this is something that, in this beautiful and active and engaged life, is also something that's really present with you. And that the choice ... there's one choice that you made that day in 2015, and you make a different choice every day, sometimes every minute of every day. It's a choice that you're continuously making. And if you could speak a little bit to what it is to face that as an overt choice every day. Susan Levine: So, Dr. Barnhill says I like to have suicide in my hip pocket. It's something I can always go back to if I think things aren't going well. And what's not going well? Well, my mother has Alzheimer's and I worry about that. I lose friends to sickness, I worry about that. The world is a mess, I worry about that. I might fail [in] whatever it is I'm doing, I worry about that. There's always something I'm worried about. Susan Levine: When I was four years old, my mother offered me a bunch of grapes, and I looked at her with concern in my eyes and I said, "Are there more for tomorrow?" And only when she assured me there were more grapes for tomorrow would I eat those grapes. So, worry and performance, all those things have been a constant part of my life. And I've muscled through those things. But it doesn't mean that just because I lived, that I'm happy to be living. I think what it is, is, since I lived, I'm going to live a great life. But, I still think about the fact that it would be easier to not be here. Deborah Waxman: I think we've talked about how people will project a lot onto you, like a narrative of heroism. And I do think that it's always hard to wear other people's projections, most especially when you are concerned about what they think about you. But the piece that really resonates very powerfully with me is the fact that you keep making the choice, that you are able since the accident, since those events of 2015, to make a set of different choices than you were capable of that night. That's where the heroism is, is that when it could be easier you're choosing the harder tough. Susan Levine: Right. And, the other thing is I'm not depressed today. I was depressed ... I'll say to my doctor, "Why did I do this? I don't remember it, I know I was depressed, I wasn't feeling great. My world was collapsing on me, everybody was worried about me because I had had that previous attempt. So, it's not like I was getting a free pass, my family, my friends were monitoring my movements, but why that day did I decide to do this?" Susan Levine: And there's a number of theories, but I think I was feeling like everybody was closing in on me. He wanted me to go to the hospital, and I ended up doing this. And then what Dr. Barnhill said is that, when I woke up, I was no longer depressed, I was better. Now, I see him twice a week, I take meds, everybody again keeps monitoring me, "Are you okay?" You know, certain people ask me every day, "How are you doing? Are you really okay?" But I'm really okay. Susan Levine: So, the fact that I still have suicide in my hip pocket is kind of where it's always been for me. Six months before November 2015 was not the first time I thought about suicide. And so, the question is, where did it come from? Why would this happy, lucky person feel this way? It's kind of crazy. And it is crazy. And there's no good answer, but lots of people will ask me, "Well, is it something that happened in childhood." And there is one thing that happened in childhood that could have led me down a path, that said "sometimes it might just be better not to be here, to be in heaven." Susan Levine: And that's when I was very young, I was six years old, and my ... I was the oldest of four children living in Grand Forks, North Dakota. And we had a new baby in the house, Jamie. Three months old at that time. And he was my mother's favorite child, or so that's how I read it. And one day my brother, Mark, who was one year younger than me, came up to me, I was playing in the alley, and said, "Jamie's gone to heaven." And that's how I found out that my brother had died. Susan Levine: And, the next year was a year of chaos in my family. My mother could no longer stand to live in Grand Forks, North Dakota, so we picked up the family and moved back to Canada where my parents were originally from. And my father, who's a doctor, had to practice medicine in Canada. We lived with my mother's parents, I was having a fine time. I went to a new school, I had a nice Jewish boyfriend in second grade. Winnipeg was great for me. Susan Levine: My father hated it, and eventually said, "We have to move back to the US." So, what Dr. Barnhill posits, as a young child, I had gone through this experience, losing my brother, who had gone to heaven. And I ended up with a depressed mother, inattentive father, parents that weren't available. Disruption in my life, and then I might have at that point concluded being in heaven with Jamie is a better place than being on earth with my family. Now, that's a big stretch to, from that to putting myself on the tracks, but it does explain periodically throughout my life in moments of sadness, it would be a logical place for my head to go. Deborah Waxman: Well, this is not necessary about logic. Susan Levine: No, it's not about logic. Deborah Waxman: So, go back to the framing of this podcast. I know that family and friends and finding ways to reengage with your old passions, and you've developed some new passions. Those have been important ways of rebuilding your life. And I would like to ask you if you could reflect on some of the ways that both Jewish practices and Jewish community have been helpful as you live with intense sadness, as you build a life unlike the life you were living previously. Susan Levine: Well, my Judaism has always been important to me, even though I'm married to a nice Protestant boy from North Dakota. I've always been active, I went to Herzl camp when I was young, I wanted to be a rabbi. Deborah knows I love rabbis -- I had many rabbis visiting me in the hospital and afterwards. But it's pretty really important part of my life. And when I got to the hospital, I was determined to live a very active Jewish life. I was there during Hanukkah. I lit the electric Hanukkah candles every night. Susan Levine: Of course, we had no fire in the hospital. I befriended a Hasidic woman on the psych ward who was so alone. She was Satmar -- you know, think of her being on a psych ward getting ECT, and I brought her into my Jewish community, which consisted of my brother's rabbi visiting me on Shabbat, one of my best friends in New York who visited me every day, brought Shabbat dinner every Friday night. Rabbis visited me on the ward, Rabbi Katie from Or Shalom who is here called me from Israel. Susan Levine: Deborah visited me when I left the hospital, the Romemu rabbis visited me. I felt, like, beloved by the rabbis, and by my practice. I meditated every morning, in fact, the nurses in the ward once they learned that I was a meditator, they insisted I meditate. When they come to get me at, you know, 6:00 in the morning, or whatever, they'd say, "Okay," they took my vitals, and they say, "Okay, now you sit here for 20 minutes and meditate." I'm the only person that had a daily meditation practice on the ward. Susan Levine: And then when I left, I moved to Sonoma for full time, that wasn't my plan. In Sonoma I joined the local Reform synagogue that is in the community. I still periodically went to Or Shalom in San Francisco, but it's too far. And then I had the good fortune when Deborah and Seth Rosen visited in California and we went to visit with the Reconstructionist community in Cotati led by Reb Irwin Keller, I realize this is a community for me. And I joined Ner Shalom. So, again, my Judaism, my Jewish practice, my Jewish community inform my life really on a daily basis. Deborah Waxman: So, you know it's interesting I frequently -- either this is this big experiment to apply psychology, the insights of psychology to Judaism to show how Jewish practice reinforces or anticipates some of those insights. And I tend to really favor the psychological piece, this psychological lens and definition of resilience. But there's also an ecological approach, and that's thinking about how to create structures and communities that can withstand environmental degradation. Deborah Waxman: And, when I was preparing for this interview I really started to flip over into the structural approach. I was about 24 or 25 years old when I went to a conference and someone said to me for the first time, "The one minority group that any of us could join at any time is to become disabled." That we take our wellbeing, many of us, for granted and that could change in a second for whatever reason. And that is something that -- there's so much work to be done to alter our communities so that we can be more embracing of people with disabilities. Deborah Waxman: Also I think people with mental illness, but here, when we think about the physical structure. So, I guess, I wonder if you want to reflect on that, and your thoughts, especially since the accident, about how Jewish communities can be more embracing about people with disabilities. Susan Levine: One of the biggest surprises for me since the accident is that I'm now a disabled person. I just never thought of myself as ever being a disabled person. And in many ways I still don't think of myself as being a disabled person. And my friends will say, "We don't think of you as being disabled." But try getting around with one arm and one leg, it's not so easy. As the years pass, I'll get better with my walking, my mobility, but I was confined to a wheelchair initially. And I remember going to a synagogue at Romemu in New York, which is very inaccessible. They have a ramp that's impossible to use, and then once you get into the ... they share space with the church. And once you get in I couldn't get down the stairs, I could never- Deborah Waxman: It's a historically significant -- it's not a new building, right? Susan Levine: Right. Any historical buildings are grandfathered under the ADA. The minute you do renovations you have to become, you know, you're then guided by ADA. But a lot of synagogues that share space in old churches or their buildings are old, they make an effort to be accessible, but they're really not. And so, the first thing I say is make your facility accessible, and it's always an expensive thing to do. But by not doing it you're excluding physically disabled people. There's other ways to exclude mentally disabled people, are you including them in the service? Are they on the bimah, can they get to the bimah? Susan Levine: I know that Ner Shalom is very sensitive to its congregants who have disabilities, and does special programming for congregants with disabilities, and for children with disabilities. But, somehow acknowledging that there are disabled people in your community, and trying to make them feel included. We talk about inclusion all the time, but it's usually gender inclusion or sexuality inclusion or political inclusion. We rarely --- because we don't think about it. You don't sit around and think, "I could become disabled." And you're right, at any second you can become disabled. Susan Levine: So, I think having that mindset of, how do we become a welcoming space for people with disability. Even if you don't recognize it! I'm easy. You look at me, you know I'm disabled. But people with mental illness, they're not easy. You know, and they're shy or they're afraid or they don't come, but somebody knows them, and there is a way to reach out to those people. Deborah Waxman: Just a little Reconstructionist shout out that we have a monthly newsletter, "Reconstructing Judaism Today" In a recent issue ,I think it was two or three months ago, e had an article written by Bryan Schwartzman where he interviewed, I think he spoke to 10 different Reconstructions congregations to feature the different ways that the folks are working on including people with disabilities. Deborah Waxman: And the Ruderman Family Foundation has really taken the lead in trying to help the Jewish community move forward on this. So, it's an emerging thing and it's a constant work in progress. I think at this point -- thank you so much Susan -- I want to open it up for questions. So, if there's anybody has a question either for Susan or for me, come forward so that maybe we can capture on the livestream. And maybe say your name. Mark Nussbaum: So, I'm Mark Nussbaum, I'm board member. And my question is, I'm sure I speak for a lot of people in this room, I know people who have depression, suffer from depression, either medicate for it, what can we do? Could anyone have done anything to help you from jumping off the tracks and taking that step? Susan Levine: The minute somebody suggests that they're thinking about killing themselves, is the minute you get them to the hospital. It's not going to cure them, but in my case this was an impulsive move. Had I been taken to the hospital like everybody wanted to do, and talked to the psychiatrist there, played around with my meds, and had some time to think about the ramifications of what I was going to do, it might have stopped me. Susan Levine: The first time when I sat on the ledge, I was in my right mind. So, I sat there and I looked below and I thought about jumping, but I thought about my family, and I thought about the sadness it would cause, you know, I was able to have that conversation with myself, and I didn't jump. Now, I was taken off the roof by the police, so it's not like I got off the ledge, but I didn't jump. This time as I said, I don't remember it, but what was happening in those previous days is, people were noticing I wasn't doing well. And while I didn't say "I'm going to go jump in front of a train," I was clearly not in my right mind. Susan Levine: And several people said to me, "You know, maybe it would be good if you went back to the hospital." And I said, "Oh no, I know I'm not doing well, but I'll be fine. I'm talking to my psychiatrist, I'm taking my meds, I'll be fine." You know, they had that instinct, we need to get her to the hospital, they should have acted on that instinct. And this is the same thing I was like, people will ask me often. You know I know somebody who is depressed, somebody who killed themselves, somebody who tried. And if you have warnings, and often you do. If you don't when somebody is determined they're going to. But often times you'll get warnings, and you need to get that person to a safe space, because it might just take 24 hours in the hospital -- or 72, because once you go in you're in for 72 -- that might be enough. And at least then you know they're getting some help. Deborah Waxman: I think I would say, you know, I think about this in response to someone who's depressed, and then also as someone with aging parents. The question of autonomy is so challenging. You want to respect a person's autonomy, you want to be really, really capacious. I was not in Susan's life on a daily basis at that point, but we had dinner a couple of months after the first episode, and Susan shared what had happened, and I had said to her, "Tell me how you are, tell me should I be worried? Tell me, is there anything I could do?" And Susan, very convincingly said, "I'm okay. I am okay." I'm looking at Katie and I'm sure she had variations of the same, [Rabbi Katie Mizrahi], variations of the same conversation. Deborah Waxman: So, I certainly didn't have, I think, the relationship necessarily to act differently. Because at that point, I think you were okay. I think that how you reported to me at that moment in time was accurate, but whether or not it was just that moment versus a larger haul. I guess to add into what Susan is saying, it's certainly like thinking about my aging parents, like when to intervene, and when to allow them to make decisions that are not necessarily -- my mother's coming tomorrow. I'm sorry, Mom. And my father who died last spring -- a lot of this had to do with decisions. Making decisions that are not necessarily about their own safety, but are about their own autonomy. Deborah Waxman: To try to find the best possible balance. I would say that if you're in that situation where you're getting those signals, talk to someone else, check in with a medical professional. Check in with someone else to say, "This is what I'm seeing, this is what I'm sensing. How do you think I should ask?" That person themselves not be the sole expert or the sole decider -- certainly act on the impulse and get more information, and get more support so that you can figure out what is collectively the best possible decision. Audience Member: Susan you said it's a choice, what do you do every day to keep re-making that choice? Susan Levine: I live a very full and productive life. And that's how I do it. I think one of the reasons that I was able to be as resilient as I was, was that I had a very busy life. I got too busy, it got out of control. When I was in the hospital the first time my husband said that my iPad was the iPad of horrors, because every 15 minutes was blocked out. So, I've learned also that space is important. But, I get up in the morning, what physical exercise am I doing that day, what work do I have for Reconstructing Judaism, I'm on a local board in Sonoma for the Sonoma Mentoring Alliance. Susan Levine: My husband and I mentor an 11 year old Hispanic boy. So, I have board work, now I'm going to be writing this book, so all the sudden that's going to eat up a huge amount of my time. Because the challenge for me, of course, is when I went to the tracks and lost my arm and my leg I could no longer work. And that was a big concern for me, because I was very work-identified, as many of us are. And, I hoped I would still work, but I got fired, not really fired, I was told, "You can't really do your job," which was true. And they were very kind to me, my employer. Susan Levine: And then I was like, "Well am I going to work again?" And then ... I was in finance and I raised capital for investment funds, and I traveled around the country, and around the world and how was I really realistically going to be able to do that again? So, I had to accept that reality that you're not going to be working. But I had to replace that time because I couldn't just sit around. My husband is retired, there's nothing he likes more than reading for four hours in a day, and puttering around the house, and doing projects, and cooking. Well, I don't cook -- I didn't before, I certainly don't now. [Audience laughter] Susan Levine: I love to read, but I'm not going to read for four hours in the afternoon. I never turn the television on during the day, so I have to make sure that I have a full schedule. And I do, and I think that helps a lot. The most quiet and therefore dangerous time for me is when I'm sitting in the bathroom at night getting ready to go to bed, and I ruminate. And I talk a lot with Dr. Barnhill about ruminating. Susan Levine: Ruminating is not a good thing for me, and probably for anybody. I can waste a lot of time ruminating. And so now I'm really trying hard to get into the bathroom, brush your teeth, wash your face, go to bed. Sometimes I fall asleep in my wheelchair in the bathroom, but that's where I really focus on, you know, how do I stop that? Because that's where the thoughts, the spiraling can happen. During the day, I've got the day under control. Deborah Waxman: I want to ask a quick followup -- if you were very work-identified -- and when I met you that's how it was -- how would you say you -- . What's your primary identification now? Can you answer that? Susan Levine: It's really a good question. I have so many different communities now. I have all these new communities of the disabled. I'm very involved with an organization called the Challenge Athletes Foundation, which provides equipment and training to people that are disabled. So, I identify as being part of that community, and part of the disabled community, and part of the bipolar II community. I'm part of all the Jewish community obviously. Susan Levine: So, I don't have one thing, I have a lot of things. I've always had a lot of things. At my core I care about the world, I care, you know, I'm Jewish. I care about the values that we all hold dearly. I want to live a good life, I want to be loved, I want to love. It's not much different from what it was before, that's why the working title is "I'm Still Susan." When people who were afraid to visit me in the hospital came and visited, and we'd have conversations and I was laughing and interacting with them the way I always had, they would say to me, "You're still Susan." And they would tell other people, "Don't worry, go see her, she's still Susan." Susan Levine: So, I haven't really changed, except I'm not depressed, but that's being managed. And I have people very sensitive to that. There was a period of time where when I was talking to Dr. Barnhill I was having a moment of sadness, and I was crying a bit more. And all of a sudden he upped one of my meds, and I joked with him and I said, "What, every time I have a little sadness, you're going to change my meds?" He says, "No, but you were crying, and you haven't been crying for a while. So, we just have to stay on top of that." Susan Levine: So, clearly -- and I can never forget that I tried to kill myself, because all I have to do is look at my body and I know what I did. So, I don't have that advantage that people who take a lot of pills, and then don't die, and nobody needs to know unless they tell them. I don't have that. You know, the minute I meet somebody, they look at me and they wonder what happened. And so, I have to decide, do I ... Now I tell everybody, now I'm going the other extreme. I meet somebody new, "Hi, how are you? I'm Susan, I tried to kill myself." Susan Levine: You know, I realize that, you know, I've got to bring it back in a little bit, because maybe they don't want to know that. So, I guess in terms of who I am now, a lot of who I am now comes from, "what did I do and how am I going to live my life now that I did it?" Ezra: Hi, I'm Ezra. Susan Levine: Hi Ezra. Ezra: I actually work at NOrer Shalom, so, lovely to see you in person and not just on a [inaudible] screen. So, as a person who is disabled and identifies as having a mental illness, how do you see yourself represented in Torah? Are there narratives and stories that really connect with your experience? Susan Levine: That's a really good question. You know, I don't know the Torah well enough to answer that. What I do know is I gave ... Before this book proposal happened, and the reason it kind of happened is, it's actually a funny story. A year a half ago, my husband and I bike a lot. I have an adaptive trike, and we go on organized rides, and I can bike as many miles now as I could before. I have a pedal assisted motor, so I can keep up with able bodied riders. And we were doing an organized bike ride, and the Rotary Club was one of the sponsors. Susan Levine: And I was standing by the car, and my husband was getting my trike off the car. And I'm standing around with no arm and my prosthetic leg and bike clothes. And one of the Rotarians ran over to me and said, "You're amazing. Would you come speak to our Rotary Club?" I'm not that amazing, but I guess standing there in my bike clothes with a prosthetic leg made me amazing. So, eventually I did go speak to that Rotary Club. Susan Levine: And I spoke to a couple Rotary Clubs, and then I said to my synagogue in Sonoma, "Do you want me to speak to Shir Shalom?" Now that I'm speaking to Rotarians, maybe I should speak to some Jews." And so, we decided, and so I had written this speech that really was the basis for the book proposal. And so, that Friday that I was going to give the speech I said, "Okay, let me look at the parsha and see if I can make any connection to the parsha of the week and my speech." And I could not. Susan Levine: There was just nothing there that I could possibly use. So, I just put it down. And so, the short answer is, when I go to ... Sometimes like, who will live and who will die, that kind of stuff. You know when it gets to those types of decisions and talks and conversations that will then resonate with me. Because I did choose to die. I lived but that's not what I chose. But I haven't spent a lot of time looking, but the few times I have, have not resonated with me, except for the Deborah Waxman: Right. I'm not certain -- that's such an interesting question, Ezra, but like that -- but Torah is going to, it's likely to be a place of pain and the redemptive pieces are going to be from subversive reading. Susan Levine: Right, and suicide and Judaism is, you know- Ezra: I mean, most religions- Susan Levine: Yeah, most religions, but Judaism was not very good. Deborah Waxman: Right. So, but one of the questions when we were preparing for this that I asked Susan it was, what is it like to you when you read the Unetaneh Tokef, who will live and who will die. You know, I will sometimes say to people who are in extremis as the holidays approach, you read those passages differently when you're living with cancer, or when you've just lost someone. Deborah Waxman: And what we do is, we have this protective skin over us, and the holidays are this artificial experience that is designed to strip that skin away, so that we feel the fragility of the world and how our lives and how precarious and precious they are. And then when Susan says, you know, every single day I look and see the implications of what I did, the result of what I did back then, what it's like to live in a continuous Untenah Tokef moment. Deborah Waxman: So, ideally that is how we all live because that life of meaning that you are choosing, that life of connection and relationship that is ... I said in an earlier session, I was meeting with some of the Shapiro Fellows, and I said, at the end of the day, we are put on this earth to ask the questions: why are we here? What are we supposed to do when we are here? And how are we supposed to do it? And that, that's one of the reasons why I am religious rather than just spiritual. Deborah Waxman: Because by being a religious Jew, I am having this conversation across generations with centuries of wisdom, of questions, of answers toward this end. But at the end, each of us, we have to ... it has to be coherent and meaningful and sustaining for each of us, hopefully most minutes of the day, hopefully most days of the year. Baker: Hi, I'm Marla Baker. And my question, I guess, is related. You talked about finding a Jewish community that really spoke to you. Deborah has been talking as I'm hearing it about how we all live some place between the fragility and the resilience. And I'm wondering, what made that Jewish community the one that helps you with the resilience, or where you get some of that from. And if you can speak to ... You know, is it mainly from who the community of people is, or something in the Jewish practice that particularly speaks to you and how that plays out. Susan Levine: That's a question I've never been asked. I think a lot of it goes to my love of rabbis. It's true. If I'm inspired by a rabbi, then I want to be part of that community. So, when I went to Or Shalom the first time -- and I learned about Or Shalom from another RRC graduate, Helen Plotkin, who was at Swarthmore with me -- I immediately said, "I want to be a member of this community because Rabbi Katie is amazing." Deborah Waxman: She is. Susan Levine: And she is. And she called me, and she was tracking my movements too. So, in Sonoma I joined the Reform community because it's the only thing we have there. And I wanted to be part of the Sonoma Jewish community. And I love the community, the people are great, and the rabbi is delightful. But I'm not drawn to the services the way I am, like with the way I was at Or Shalom. Then I met Rabbi Irwin at Ner Shalom. And I found another spiritual leader, and I said, "I want to be part of this community." Susan Levine: And that community feels a lot like my Or Shalom community, and they're both Reconstructionist. So, what does that say? So, it reinforces my views and feelings about, "this is my community, and this is where I want to be." A lot of it is going to be evident ... You know leaders always create the culture, whether it's in the private sector, the public sector, the religious sector. So, I look for good leaders. And if you find good leaders, you find good culture, you find good community. And then the rest is just part and parcel of that. Marilyn: Thank you, I'm Marilyn. That was a perfect cue for my question. When you talked about culture, I've corresponded with Rabbi Waxman a little bit. But, I work in public health, and listening to you and thinking about what we can do, and I start thinking not just what we can do as individuals, but how can we change the culture? And I'm kind of wondering if you think this would make a difference in itself, this is more kind of a rhetorical question, but the culture around mental illness and mental health and health seeking and there's a lot of stigma. Marilyn: I mean, we all know that, it's pretty hard to seek help when you need help. It's our, you know, kind of dominant frame in America is "we can do it ourselves, we can take care of ourselves," and I think that needs to change. And I think it needs to be okay to get help when you need help, and be okay to ask about it, and to talk about it. And maybe that's something we can do as Jewish communities. Susan Levine: Well, that's one of the reasons I'm here. Alan Markham [?] came up to me just before we started and said, "You know, you're very brave to do this." I don't feel very brave, I feel like maybe I'm helping to destigmatize something that shouldn't be stigmatized. And I remember when I came off the roof, and I called my husband, I think my sister-in-law called my husband who was in California. And he got on the phone with me, he was like, "Are you okay?" And then he said, "Tell your people at work that you took a fall." Like, "Don't tell them the truth, because then you could lose your job." Susan Levine: And so, that's what I initially did. It wasn't a lie, like, [I] sort of took a fall. And eventually I did tell them the truth. And there's no question, I was worried when I went back to work that first time that I was damaged, I would be viewed as damaged goods. Well, guess what, I was viewed as damaged goods. And I still look back, I still did my work, but I knew everybody was once again, they were all like, "Is she okay?" Susan Levine: So, it's a challenge. And I figured, with Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade and Robin Williams and all the ... You know, everybody knows somebody who themselves committed suicide, whose child did, everybody knows somebody. I figure the more we talk about it, the more we say, "Look, having cancer is a disease, mental illness is a disease. We need to talk about it." And people used to never talk about cancer. Remember in those days where if somebody had cancer it was like, you would never talk about it, now we wear pink ribbons. Susan Levine: So, it's equally important that we talk about it, and that we don't ignore people who aren't doing well. You know, I wasn't ignored, there's no question that people were trying. So, I can't like ... I did a session similar to this before I was so public at Romemu in New York with another suicide survivor. And we did it in the context of Judaism and surviving and it was the first time I had spoken in front of people, but it was very small, it wasn't public. Susan Levine: And I remember the other person saying, when the people said, "Well, what did you need?" Or, "What would have helped you?" And he said "having community." Well, I had community, I have community, so that didn't help me. So, this is tricky stuff, it doesn't lend itself to platitudes, it doesn't lend itself to, you know, I'm here for you. It lends itself to hearing other people talk about it, and in a very normalized fashion, and that's hard. Deborah Waxman: Well, and Marilyn, You talked about like the American emphasis on self-reliance, and then Susan in your response, you talked also about the shame, which I think are, you know, mutually reinforcing in really devastating ways. And I think we talk about leaders creating culture for sure. Judaism, I've spent a lot of time thinking about ways that even as Reconstructionism is established on the principles of living in two civilizations, it was with an understanding that they would both reinforce each other, and also critique where appropriate. Deborah Waxman: And Judaism is critical of the radical individualism, and certainly of self-reliance. Judaism teaches us powerfully that we are all deeply interconnected, and that we are all mutually obligated to each other. And that we submerge some of our individual aspirations in order to come through for other people. That's what minyan is about, that's why to say kaddish I need nine other people with me. Deborah Waxman: So, to have as Jewish leaders, to create a culture that honors vulnerability, that makes space for brokenness, that understands that we are constantly seeking after holiness, but that, that can't, that's not about erasing or effacing the imperfections or the pain, but rather holding it as we strive toward it. That feels like really essential wisdom to take from Jewish teaching. Deborah Waxman: There's a poem in the Reconstructions prayer book, a Yiddish poem that I absolutely love. And it talks about the six days of the week leading to Shabbat, and the first day, you know, one day a week, it's very beautiful imagery that the salt was scattered, and that the kings fought with each other on the second day of the week. And on the fourth day of the week the beautiful doves were shattered. But on Shabbat coming together, lighting the Shabbat candles, everything is restored to a taste of Eden. and the salt is restored in its table, and the doves are licking their necks. Deborah Waxman: This idea that we can get glimpses of holiness, and then we return to the imperfect and broken world. And that that carries over to who we are as well, and to hold that as a holy image. That feels like a really important correction to a larger culture that is always striving about perfecting our bodies, and shutting down our psyches and our souls and limiting them in ways that they're not true. And that limitation damages it, further, you know, makes it that much worse. Okay. She had a question right here. Marla: My friends who live with disabilities have taught me that I'm a TAB, a "temporarily able-bodied person". That we're all just TABs, if you're not already with a disability, you're a TAB for now. And having supported a number of loved ones wrestling with suicide in my life, I just wanted to thank you so much for telling your story, for doing exactly what was just mentioned. But, just making it more ordinary. We're all so terrified of it, it's really scary if you dance with it. It's very scary for yourself, for your loved ones, and I particularly was very fascinated by you acknowledging that you still have a deep sadness. There's deep sadness in your life. There was before, there is now, I don't know if we have a lot of time left, but if you could speak at all to, has your relationship with that deep sadness changed at all in the time before and after? Susan Levine: Oh, yeah. I think because it was surfaced so dramatically. So, there's no shoving it under the rug anymore. You know, it's like -- I can't pretend everything's fine. The fact is everything's been fine for the last three years, more or less, there've been those moments. But, I think, I'm probably more willing to acknowledge when I'm really not doing well. So, that even though I might have conversations about, well, sometimes I think about doing it and how would I do it, now that I'm disabled, I can't go to the ledge, I can't go in front of a train, how am I going to get there? [laughter] Susan Levine: I mean, I have those conversations with my very humorous psychiatrist. I just don't see myself doing it again. I think I did that, it didn't work out so well for me. But and I actually said to him, "What's our goal here? Is it so that I don't get depressed again?" He said, "No, you can't have a double negative goal. Your goal is to live a happy life, that's the goal." And, I think that's a pretty good goal. I want it in that sort of ... Like I try to have a practice, I don't do it every day, but I try to have a, at the end of the day name three things I'm grateful for. Susan Levine: And my psychiatrist encouraged me to have that practice. Other people have a gratitude practice. So, I think just kind of being grateful to be here, and to have this great life that ... I have a friend, a good friend in San Francisco who will jokingly, she said," Well, Susan I really want your life." I said, "That's fine, if you give up an arm and a leg, you can have my life." [groans, laughter] So, you know, there are trade-offs. But, I feel pretty lucky. Deborah Waxman: Jonathan, and then I think we're going to have to... we've gone longer than we thought we would. But, we'll keep the questions coming. Jonathan: So, you've talked a lot about your experience, I generally appreciate, can you talk a little bit about how this experience has affected the people around you that loved you, and their guilt,and how you kind of went through that? Susan Levine: Yeah. I was waiting for that question. You know, obviously it was a devastating thing for my family, my husband, close friends, and some who ... I think they have a lot of guilt, which I try to assuage because, they couldn't do anything. I was doing such a reasonably good job of keeping them at bay. But they do feel the guilt of, "if we only had gotten her to the hospital that day." Actually last week, my psychiatrist [inaudible]: "Are you angry? Are you angry at what you did?" And I don't feel anger. I'm sad, I would rather have my limbs than not have, but I'm not angry. And I'm not angry at my family, my friends, the people who didn't intervene. Susan Levine: I'm sad that I put them through such heartache. You know, several of my family members started seeing therapists themselves to try to deal with what had happened. So, I know it had an impact, and people will say to me, "Well, how could you do this, knowing what it would do to your loved ones?" But my answer to that is, "You think I was thinking rationally that day about ...?" All I was thinking is, "I got to get out of here." When I sat on the ledge, I thought about what this would do to my family and friends, and I didn't act. Susan Levine: So sure, I know that when my sister sees me, and sees me without my limbs, she thinks about it, and thinks about what more could she have done? Because she was tracking my movements. They knew from, you know, there were certain people in New York, friends who were talking to my family about, "Well, Susan's going to work now, and Susan's going here now." And then I disappeared, and then they were all horrified. Susan Levine: So, I think a lot about how it affected them, but I make a real point and a real effort at making them feel comfortable that I'm fine. Deborah Waxman: Without slipping into care-taking, how do you do that? Susan Levine: I'm the oldest of five children. Deborah Waxman: Yeah, yeah... Audience Member: I know that you've explained it, but still I'm having a hard time grasping the amount of resilience you have now when in some ways things are much more difficult, but you didn't have that amount of resilience before. And I'm just wondering if the fact that you're writing a book, and that you're going to be helping so many people in your situation, I wonder if that's helped increased the resilience because you have a greater sense of purpose in your life now? Susan Levine: No. [Laughter] The book thing is a really new thing, and maybe it will happen, maybe it won't. I'm hoping it happens, but I think it's just as we said earlier, resilience has never been my problem, which is why it didn't keep me safe. Because it's just, I'm adaptable, I adapt to new environments. I worked on Wall Street at Lehman Brothers, may she rest in peace. And I remember I was in China. I have an Asia background, I speak Chinese and I had taken a whole group of senior bankers to China in 1984, a little early. Susan Levine: And, I remember one of the senior people looking at me saying, "Susan, you are a chameleon." I adapt really well to whatever environment I'm in. My friends come from all walks of life, I befriend everybody. I'm not, you know, I'm just very adaptable and very easy to get along with, and like being with people. I'm not shy, although I was when I was younger. When I'm sad I reach out to people, I have, you know, all the time that I was having these difficult times, I was on the phone with friends. I was never isolating myself except in those deepest most horrible moments when I would retreat. Susan Levine: So, the book, I think, I hope it happens. I feel pretty good about it, I'm enjoying the process. It will certainly keep me busy, and I like to be kept busy. But, some people said, "Oh, I bet it's really cathartic, your writing this book. You're going to discover things." And I said, "Well, not really, I've done a lot of work in these last three years. I've kind of discovered a lot." So, for me the book is kind of this interesting exercise of telling the story. Susan Levine: And maybe, and I'm serious when I said that, maybe it will be helpful to people to read that somebody like me, who you know, like Anthony Bourdain, I'm not famous like him, but I have it all. You know, there's nothing I've been lacking in my life, and yet this is what I chose. Maybe it will be helpful, or it will open the dialogue more. So, I think that's why I'm doing it. But, it doesn't help my resilience. That doesn't need helping. Deborah Waxman: I think Marla said it so powerfully that, you know, I think we are we balance, we walk a fine path between fragility and resilience. And ideally we locate ourselves in community, ideally we are all surround ourselves with loving people, ideally we all find the practices that make it more likely that we will stay and live as much of our life as possible on that resilient side. Because the fragility is always there, it is always there. Thank you so much, Susan, for sharing your story. [Applause] Susan Levine: Thank you. Deborah Waxman: Thank you so much to all of you for your very thoughtful and open hearted questions, and for participating in thiswonderful project and podcast. Thank you so much everybody. Susan Levine: Thank you. [Applause] For more information you can go to https://hashivenu.fireside.fm, and you can also find more resources on this topic on ReconstructingJudaism.org and on Ritualwell.org. This is Rabbi Deborah Waxman, and you've been listening to Hashivenu: Jewish Resources on Resilience. [Music]