Colin Wynn Good morning, Chris. Chris Smallwood Good morning Colin, how are you? Colin Wynn I'm very well, thank you I'm very well. Welcome to Moving Matters. Chris Smallwood Yes, thank you the fated Moving Matters. I've had the pleasure of listening to a couple in the build-up, really good. really enjoy it. Colin Wynn Thank you very much. Colin Wynn Can you tell everyone a little about yourself and the length of time in this industry? Chris Smallwood Yes. I'm Chris Smallwood. I own Anchor Removals Limited based in Salford. But I started in the industry over in York in 1990. So 30 years this year, I would reckon. Colin Wynn That's how long I've been in the industry, 30 odd years now. Colin Wynn How did you get started in the industry? Chris Smallwood Well, that's a story in itself and it's quite a funny one, really, although it starts with a bit of sadness. So I've never been redundant in my life ever. But I only ever got made redundant once. And that was back in 1989. And there was, I think the market was going through one of those difficult periods towards the end of the Thatcher era. And I got a notification just before my 21st birthday to say I was going to lose my job working as a garage receptionist over in York at a place called Piccadilly Fiat, which doesn't exist anymore. And one of my customers was a splendid chap called Charles Oliver, who I had fleetingly known because I used to go and watch sports around the place and Charles was a cricketer. But he also owned a removals company called Whitby Olivers in York, which was very well renowned, been around a long time over 100 years even at that time. And he was one of my customers and he found out in the January that I was serving the back end of my redundancy notice and walked into the office and said, you're good at bovine excreta why don't you come and work for me? And that was obviously paraphrased from what he actually said, but that was word for word what he said to me, would you like to come and work for me, and of course, I'm losing my job. So I went Yeah, I don't know what I'm going to be doing. I don't know where I'm going to be working but yeah, I'll take a job, a jobs a job. And he introduced me to Andy Dickerson, who's become a longtime friend of mine. And Andy interviewed me and appointed me there and there to work on the vans at Whitby Olivers which was Yeah, how it all began. Colin Wynn So you started off on the vans as a packer, porter/packer? Chris Smallwood Yeah, porter packer and then progressed to driver not the class two, but what's known as class three these days, isn't it? So it's, it's seven and a half tonne, but I really enjoyed that. It was fantastic. I loved it. Colin Wynn So Packer, Porter, Driver and then obviously ended up in the office at some point? Chris Smallwood Well yeah, I think Charles had always had it in his mind to get me in the office. And I think Andy had seen enough in me during the interview to think at some point yeah, we could progress this lad. In 1992, the beginning 1992, I progressed into the office and became surveyor as well and I really enjoyed it so ended up being a bit of both really for a period but I enjoyed meeting people I enjoyed going into other people's houses, I obviously had some good communication skills back then. Because when my previous life in the garage reception industry, I'd been good at communicating I'd been brought in as a as a trainee mechanic back in 86. And I'd been spotted there that I was gift of the gab, I think they call it and they dragged me into the office and enjoyed I get on with with people I have a way of being able to communicate and get on with people that seem to sort of be the founding sort of foundations behind what sort of guided my career to where it went really. Colin Wynn Did you get involved in management there as well? Chris Smallwood At Whitby Olivers eventually. Yeah, it's a bit of a long story that, I was actually asked to go work for Devereux's in 1994. My wife Roz was working up in Teesside before we just got married, but we were engaged to wed. So I moved up to Teesside and joined Mike Devereux for three years at Devereux's of Cleveland. I was actually on holiday, I'd actually decided to leave the industry in 97. I've had enough of the industry for various reasons. And my wife was teaching so we, we, you know, I didn't need a job per say. So we went around the world. And whilst I was, I don't think Charles realises this, but whilst going around the world, I received a phone call out of the blue from Charles Oliver going again, same old sort of patter that he has, which was I hear you got no job, do you fancy coming to work for me? And I went Yeah, all right. Yeah. So history repeated itself. And I went back as a Joint Manager which eventually became Manager and that's where I started to secure a reputation for being half decent at the job, I think is the word. Colin Wynn See, you can never leave this industry once you're in it. That's it. You're in it for life. Chris Smallwood No way out. I'm afraid. Colin Wynn I've said it before. Colin Wynn So can you tell everyone about your company and the services it offers? Chris Smallwood Yeah, well, we're, I think we're a fairly conventional removalist operation. We do the usual domestic removals, we do, obviously, European work, although I tend to subcontract that out these days, the hassle of having people trying to jump in the back of my van when I'm coming back from France to England doesn't appeal to me these days. And the fines that come with it, so I pass that on to David Appleyard, a good friend of mine. And he does my European for me and I do Worldwide, obviously, through the Britainnia Group. And we do storage, containerised storage, we don't do Self Storage, I've never really had the financial wherewithal to do that. But I also feel that self storage is a bit of an anathema to me, because I'm customer service driven. And and I think that the Self Storage concept, I'm not saying it doesn't work, and it's not brilliant, or that it isn't a great business tool but for me, I like to give a proper customer service that people can receive a certain standard, and I set that high standard, and I don't see self storage as fitting in with that profile. Colin Wynn It's very much turn up and do what you want to do in your room and go again, isn't it? Chris Smallwood Yeah, yeah. And that's the side of it. And a lot of people like the, the no hassle way of doing that, which is, which is I'm sure is appealing to most but for me, I don't know, maybe I'm a glutton for punishment. We also do our office and commercial as well, which, which we do a lot of as well. Colin Wynn So how did Anchor Removals come about? Chris Smallwood Well, that started in, the actual business started as a man and van operation, a chap called Roy Featherston was a sailor and he was an alcoholic, and he stopped drinking way, way back and he needed something to help and keep his mind off the drink. So he started up a man and van mover in 1992 called Anchor Man and Van, I've still got some of the paperwork from that. And it just developed the business. And he became quite ambitious for it considering he was in his I think it was in his late 60s when, when I met him, and he'd brought the company into the BAR as Anchor Removals. And I was Chairman of the Northwest Area at the time and he was really impressed with how I'd made him feel welcome at the meetings because he said I didn't know anybody and I felt a complete stranger in it. And we befriended each other and, and I started to take an interest in his business, he kept coming to me for advice. And in the end that became a I'm ready to retire Chris, would you like to get involved? And I said, Yeah, of course I would. So I did so in 2008 in the middle of another crash and remortgaged my house to pay my own wages for the first year of being in that business to see how it developed. And I kind of took it on in thinking to myself, this could be the shortest lived occupation, job I've ever had. But it actually went really, really well. The business grew. And it grew, it grew existentially. It went from £125,000 the year I walked into it to £230,000 then doubled to £400,000 to where it is now, which is a £600,000 a year turnover business. Colin Wynn That's a good turnover. Nice size turnover that. And what size business is it? You do container storage, obviously got trucks, how many trucks do you run? Chris Smallwood Well we, thanks to COVID, we've now got two big trucks and two smaller trucks. So you got the 2 x 3500 weights and the 2 x 18 tonners. But we did have five, but like everybody else, we anticipated the worst things that might happen this year and cut back a little bit and we're all sat regretting it now, I think. Colin Wynn Yeah, everybody's very, very busy at the moment, which is good. And now it's time to claw some money back for all the expenditure of the PPE and everything else. Chris Smallwood Definitely. Colin Wynn So yeah. Colin Wynn What challenges have you had to overcome? Chris Smallwood I think if we're talking about business management, or business ownership, or employment, the two different things as a young man growing up in the industry, and I don't want this to reflect badly on any of the people that employ me, but I always felt undervalued in what I did particularly, sort of post 94 time. And, and, and i and i also, I also felt like the industry wasn't kind to me for a long time. And so there were challenges to overcome there. I think a lot of that led to mental illness and some depression which I suffered quite heavily, particularly sort of in the in the mid 10s to 20s. It kind of came to a head. So they were the biggest challenges that are brought into ownership with me. I think that I've often said to people who asked me about ownership, because I know when I was managing other companies, people said, why don't you just own your own business, you've got the ability, and I kept being badgered about that, no thanks, I've seen what it does to the Managing Directors, leave them to it. But in the end, I was talked into doing it. And as much as I didn't want to do it, I decided I would do it. And the biggest challenge, I think, is walking into a business as an owner and thinking, I'm answerable to nobody here, and then finding out fairly quickly, you're answerable to everybody. And that's probably the greatest challenge in the industry. Colin Wynn Yeah, absolutely. Colin Wynn And if you could change anything from the past, what would it be? Chris Smallwood Oh, that's a really good question. I think valuing yourself, valuing myself would be something I'd change, I don't think I realised my own value, I don't think I recognised my own ability either, I think I was a man filled with doubt for a pretty long time, and never believed in myself as much as I really think I should have done. And I certainly think that's something that I could have changed about myself, without a doubt. And I'd like to have been, I'd like to have had the knowledge I have now, then that have now because that would have been great, that'll have been lovely. But you don't get that you just make the mistakes and you learn from them. And I think in the end, it makes you a stronger person, ultimately. Colin Wynn So do you now value yourself more today than you did yesterday as such? Chris Smallwood That's a really good question, and actually, you know, it wasn't probably until probably four years ago that I started to realise what my capabilities are, and what my value is not just to myself, but to my colleagues, to my industry. And I think that was post my period in the BAR, when I look back on that I don't think I gave the BAR when I was one as a director at the BAR. I don't think I gave the BAR or anything like my best because I doubted myself, constantly doubted myself. And I think in the last four years, I did a Goldman Sachs 10,000 small business course that was recommended to me by my good friend, Mike Andrews, who runs Britannia Bradshaws and he, he didn't harangue me into it, but he certainly was he can be persuasive when he wants to be, and he persuaded me to go for this 10,000 Small Business course with Goldman Sachs. And it was it was effectively a business diploma, if you like, a very condensed business diploma. And it was fantastic. And it was only then that I think the penny dropped in you. And I thought it was odd. You know what, Chris, you're not as stupid as you think you are. And and I've never looked back since Really? Colin Wynn I'm so surprised that you undervalued yourself. I really am, I'm really, really am so surprised that you thought that. Chris Smallwood Yeah. Colin Wynn What is your high point of being in the industry? Chris Smallwood Well, I try not to get emotional about this. Every time I mentioned it, pathos kicks through. I won the Salford Business Employer of the Year award last year. And for me, that was the pinnacle of what had been a lot of hard work over the last 10 years, 12 years. And it was an honour to win that and it meant a lot. Yeah, it was it was literally a flag waiver for what I've been trying to achieve. And it was fantastic and I'm very, very proud of that. Colin Wynn What did it take to win that? Chris Smallwood A lot of hard work. One of the things that we found was we were up against some really big companies in the Salford area. And to win it you had to demonstrate that you have gone over above and beyond for your workforce, and to demonstrate your value to them. And you have to have clear criteria of things that you had done, and that you could demonstrate. So it wasn't just a case of filling in a form and saying look after really well aren't I clever, you actually have to provide evidence of it as well. And, you know, it was a tough award to win, to be honest and a very respected award when we were called out it was incredible because we were looking at the competition and thinking to ourselves my god run against AJ Bell of all people you know, which is a huge organisation, Molson Group, another huge organisation within the Salford area and you think you've got no chance against these guys. We're just a small removals company in Salford. Elaine Wilcox who does the Granada TV, she's a journalist, renowned journalist, awarded us it, she called us out when we'd won. And I was just blown away to be honest. And it still makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end even now thinking about it. Colin Wynn Everybody has a chance, Chris, everybody, never rule yourself out. Chris Smallwood Well I know that now. Colin Wynn I see that you are a member of Britannia. What does Britannia bring to the table? Chris Smallwood A lot. You know, it's, first of all profile. You are part of a group of 40 businesses, who operate all over the United Kingdom, with relationships with companies all around the world. But more importantly, you drive up and down a motorway, you are going to see a Britannia van at some point, and people recognise that. But also you are part of a family and that family for all our differences that we have, like all families do, we are very close knit. And we all deliver a high standard of workmanship. And because of that, you get the benefit of recommendation, referral, and, of course, return clients, so you know, clients who have used you before and you know, I've, I've lost count the number of times that that people say, Oh, I moved with you from you know, London to Manchester. And you go, all right, brilliant. Yeah, no, it wasn't always but that's not the point. You know, as far as they're concerned, you're all one in the same company. And they appreciate that and you get the benefit of that. So when people say I've seen your vans or have used you before a friend recommended you a lot of the time it is Britannia, but it's very hard to quantify what proportion of your work is that when you're trying to evoke a local image as well. Colin Wynn That must be really good networking involved as well in Britannia, because a lot of the names that you've already mentioned like your Bradshaw's and your Devereux's and that you know the Whitby Olivers, they're all Britannia members. Chris Smallwood Yeah, yeah. I spent my entire life in Britannia and and actually I've made some amazing friends and they are friends you know you know people say oh, they are acquaintances and colleagues, no they're friends, you know I can tell you about you know, Matthew Collingborn, I'll name check him down in Devon, he's one of the best friends I've got in the industry, I know about his life I know about his family, you know Colin Wynn It's just a shame that he supports a naff football team! Chris Smallwood Leave him alone, somebody's got to support them havent they, so you know, and actually I went to a match with him once to watch, in Manchester City's darkest days, he's my witness to prove I followed my team when they were absolutely dreadful, and we went to Swindon to watch them play, Manchester City actually for a change won that game which tells you how bad Swindon are but that's another story. But yeah, you do you establish great friendships within Britannia, it is a close knit bunch, you know, and I'm sure we have our disagreements as well around the country. But all in all, we were there to help each other. And generally speaking, when you pick up a phone to a fellow Britannia member, you're going to get support. And that's important, I think. Colin Wynn And you get that in the removal industry in general as well, everybody's friends, everybody knows everybody else in the industry. I've said many a time we're such a close knit industry at the end of the day. Chris Smallwood We are, I talk about some of my best friends in the industry or within Britannia, but actually, you know, I could name check Mark Chudley who's become an absolute rock to me, you know, when you go through the difficult times you find out who your friends are and people like Mark Chudley for example, is such a considered an articulate man, he's just you know, he's so deep in his thoughtfulness, and he's a cracking bloke to get good info off. And a guy I spend an awful lot of time with these days is Mike Andrews, many would say is he not a competitor? And I suppose he is, but we've never seen each other like that. We go out for coffees together, we've even had a bike ride, took him on a killer ride and he out rode me up the hill and things like that. But I don't resent him for that. Chris Smallwood You know, you've got some great people who, you know, if you can trust enough, you'll find that they're actually half decent I mean, I'm sure there's people out there that aren't so trustworthy, but for me, I've been very lucky to have good acquaintances and friendships that are like that. Colin Wynn Now you have a philosophy regarding the treatment of employees, living wage, and zero hour contracts. Care to share your philosophy with our listeners? Chris Smallwood Tap my passionate side. Yeah, well, well, first of all, I think the first thing to do is explain what the living wage is because there's a big misconception about the living wage. And I'm just going get very, this will surprise your listeners, Colin, but I'm going to get slightly political for a bit. Chris Smallwood In 2010, George Osborne decided to bring in what he called was the living wage, which was in fact, the minimum wage that had already long since been established by the previous Tony Blair government, the Labour government. And he did it and it was and if you ask Martin Lewis, the money saving expert person, he will tell you was a deeply cynical attempt to dilute the message being set by the Living Wage Foundation, which is the real living wage, which we have to call it these days. Now the living wage is actually set by an independent bunch of people, including the resolution foundation who spend their time analysing low to middle income families and looking at how they can improve lives. It also includes Joseph Rowntree Trust, who analyse and study poverty and the causes of poverty and things like that. But it also includes Aviva a major employer, IKEA a major employer, Everton Football Club a major employer, you know, so you're talking about a mix. And of course, there's a trade union congress representative in there, and what they do is they all get together, and they look at what it costs to live. And what we mean by cost to live is not hand to mouth survival, a bit of food bank here, but food bank there, it's about being able to pay your bills, feed, clothe the kids, you know, and, and go out and actually, I don't know, have a holiday, for example, once a year, it's those kind of things, which I think we would all feel is the bare minimum that any family should be entitled to. And from that they put together what is an hourly rate, which is the real living wage, at the moment, in the larger part of the UK, it's £9.50, I think in London, I'm not sure I think it's £10.35 or £10.70 these days, because London's obviously cost of living is higher. And it's, it's obviously paired up with the cost of living. So, I got involved in the living wage campaign, back in 2016. And I started paying it the same year, because I thought it was the right thing to do. There's also a deeply historical side to this for me, and a personal side of it, which is my father was a trade union man. And he represented the bus drivers of York back in the 70s and 80s. And he, I watched him fight very hard for a reasonable wage for his colleagues. And I thought you know what, I always remember, my Dad's not well at the moment, but I always remember saying to him, once, when I became a Manager, I said, you see Dad in one stroke in one week of being a Manager after more than you probably achieved as a union man in your life, I gave my lads a wage rise. And that's probably the most discourteous and cruel thing I ever said to my Dad. And I realised that actually, you know what, I hadn't because I just affected my team, the people around me, I haven't changed the entire area, which is what he did, he set the busman's wages, and then it became almost like a snowball effect. Other companies started to set their standards by the wage that was set by him fighting for his members. And, and I see the living wage foundation as, as if you're like a surrogate for my Dad, he, you know, we go out and we set the reasons why we do it as well. It's not just a case of look pay people well, they need to have a good life. It's, it's giving the benefits of that as well, which are, you know, if people are earning well, they have less stress in their lives, they know they can pay their bills. So, mental illness isn't a problem, or not as big a problem. You know, we're aware, particularly here in Salford, I'm involved in domestic violence, I keep in touch with domestic violence, charities, in Salford. And, you know, the biggest cause of domestic violence is money worries, you know, and if you can take those away, all of a sudden, you're reducing the cost of policing, you're reducing the cost of need for food banks, which I think is a stain on our national conscience at the moment. You don't need Marcus Rashford having to go around and beg the government to give vouchers out for kids to eat and all these things. But but also there's there's a bigger picture as well, which is that your life chances of a young person whose parent is on the real living wage and has a salary or at least has a constant wage coming in are so much better. You know, it's not a fluke that wealthy people with children, those children's life chances are so much greater than poor people with children. And it's not just because they smoke cigarettes and watch Sky TV please, let's just bury that old trope it needs getting rid of. So I pay my staff that and you know, people will Yeah, but I'm not being funny Chris you're not going to get guaranteed good staff. No, you're not not going to get guaranteed good staff but you sort the wheat from the chaff. It doesn't mean I employ everybody that walks through my door because I'm a living wage employer it means I pick the best And I get the best. And you know, one of the massive stats that I keep quoting out, I was asked to take part in a campaign for Salford living wage city because Salford are looking to become a living wage city where they have so many employers within the region that are living wage employers. And if they achieve that, then they become a living wage city. And I said one of the one of the greatest benefits I've ever had of as a living wage employer is my sickness and absenteeism dropped 300% in one year, in one year. And that's not made up. I've got evidence to back that up and people, that's an exaggeration, I cut my cut my sickness massively. As a result, I also you just have to look at our reviews. You know, we don't censor the reviews, we don't argue who gets our ReferenceLine reviews, we just send them out an email. Every client is a process you tick, you have a tick list on the front of the file. And the last thing is, have you sent the ReferenceLine review, send it out, you just look at them. They speak for themselves. But I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what paying the living wage and no zero hour contracts means really to me as a business. Last year, or the year before last, we had an issue with a vehicle that had broken down in Trafford Park on a Saturday, and I couldn't get anybody to come and collect it. And I said let's just leave it till Monday. We know it's exposed, but there's nothing I can do about that. We'll just make sure it's locked and protected. And unbeknown to me two of my staff had gone out on the Sunday with a set of jump leads jumped it started and got it back to Depo. It was only when I came in on the Monday morning to ring up to organise the breakdown crew that found out that that done that they had no intention of telling me. And that's the kind of loyalty looking after your staff commands. And and I think that if ever I could use anything to persuade the industry to to become a living wage industry will be that. And I look at my earlier life and I was talking to earlier Colin about treatment. I see the way that removals men were treated 30 years ago and it wasn't good. There was no manual handling training, there was no fire, mandatory fire training, there was no, there was no pastoral care for employees, they were just treated like dirt. And as I say I don't mean that in any disrespect to people I've worked for, but I saw it in other areas. And sadly, I still see it today and not necessarily amongst my peers. And there are some brilliant brilliant companies out there who I think could with a stroke of a pen become living wage employers tomorrow. But there are a lot of employers out there who sadly treat their staff abominably particularly with day rates, you know, paying them, I had a WhatsApp exchange unbeknown to the individual, I was doing it through a third party and these, the WhatsApp exchange was saying, I'm earning £50 a day, and how many hours are you working? Depends. Okay, if you work 12 hours, do you still get paid £50 a day? Yes. And you just thinking to yourself, there is something morally bankrupt about that, you know, bear in mind that the minimum wage is, you know, £7 something an hour now. So, you know, they were earning less than the minimum wage, and I'd like to change that something I'd like to change about the industry. And so I thought I'd lead by example, and become a living wage, no zero is employer. I have to say that, you know, we do have and I'll come clean, I do have a zero hours contract employee, his name's Mark, Mark Weston, and he's, it's because he works on the ships as a full time job, and when he comes back, it gets bored very quickly. So he comes and works for me to fill his days up and earns a bit of extra pocket money as well. But the fact is, he's earning good money on his day job, and we are his, if you like, his night job. So yeah, I thought I'd lead by example. And I think it's been great. And and I can tell you now that I get a huge amount of customers booking me based purely on the fact we're a living wage employer, and and that makes me very proud. Colin Wynn So if anybody listening wanted to follow suit, what do they actually need to then do? Chris Smallwood Just pay £9.50 an hour to your staff. You may not even need to raise your wages. There's some as I said, there are some brilliant employees in our industry probably pay their drivers a lot more than £9.50 an hour, probably guarantee them the hours aswell. You don't have to guarantee the hours by the way in living wage, but I would suggest just guarante them at least 16 hours just so that they know they've got some money coming in. Even if it means they have to go off and work for somebody else to make up the difference when they need to. You know, just make sure they're earning some money. But most of the companies I think most BAR companies could easily become living wage employees tomorrow. Certainly I think the Britannia members could and I just said you just contact the Living Wage Foundation, livingwagefoundation.org I think it is and just ask them for a form and you fill in a very simple five minute form, and you're signed up, and just make sure you pay your guys £9.50 an hour or more. Colin Wynn I will put that link in our show notes. Chris Smallwood I think it sets us apart Colin I think that's the thing. It sets you apart as a business. When you go and tell your customers, the person that matters most to me is the guy that steps over your doorstep to do your removal is the most important person to me, because they're my customer facing people, whether it's male or female, and sorry to sort of put it in a male context, because I appreciate we've got females in the industry as well. But you know, when that person walks up to your door, you know, that they've been invested in. There's lots more you can do as well. You've got to engage with the staff, you've got to talk to them, you've got to make sure that they're part of your decision making process within your business. sit down with them, listen to them. They've got the best ideas in your business. Something goes wrong on the job. What went wrong, guys? Well, this is what went wrong. What can we do to make it better? Well, we could do this. Oh, that's easy. Well, let's do it that. Yeah. And you'd be amazed how many times I have that conversation. Amazed, you know, and I wish you could sit my staff with me now and let them tell you because they would, they would say all the things that I'm saying, we sit down we talk things through and we come up with solutions. Colin Wynn I absolutely agree with you on that one. Absolutely agree. It's a bit like my clients, obviously, I'm in IT not in the removals, but IT for the removal industry for those that don't know, and I can't improve our software unless my users tell me the issues. So when they do phone up for support, whilst I've had staff in the past answer the question, put the phone down. That's it job done. I'm not like that. What is the problem? Here is the solution, right? How did you get to that problem in the first place? Because we want to stop you from getting to that problem. So you have to have an understanding, you have to sit down with people, whether they be your staff or even your customers, you have to try and find out what went wrong at that moment in time. And how can you make improvements so that it doesn't happen again? Chris Smallwood Absolutely. Absolutely right. And it's a great analogy that. Spot on. Colin Wynn What one thing would you change within the moving industry? Chris Smallwood I think I've given you a big clue to that now, which is the working conditions and pay of the operatives within the industry, I'd be a flag bearer for them. As I said, nothing guarantees you've got employees, but if you can surround yourself with really good employees by getting the best in because you offer the best, then I think you're on to a winner. I genuinely genuinely believe that if we as an industry could do that, I think we would raise the profile of our industry, to things that you could only dream of in a TV advert. I know a lot of people often say the BAR the BAR is brilliant, the best thing since sliced bread, but nobody knows about us. Become a living wage organisation, become a living wage association, and see what happens then, you would be plastered over every bill board there is because I can tell you that the living wage is looking for a win, a success, a demonstration, of making a difference to people's lives. And and if you can become a living wage employee, that that is what you are doing, you are changing people's lives, and there's no greater reward. Colin Wynn What advice would you give to a young Chris just starting out in the industry? Chris Smallwood Stop yapping so much. Colin Wynn No, no, no, definitely not. Chris Smallwood David Bunting, another good friend of mine once said to me, Chris you're the kind of guy who will take 10 words when one will do. And he was right. He was right back in the day. But again, not making excuses. Mr. Bunting, if you're listening in. But yeah, that was all part of this lack of belief in myself that I had to convince myself about things and got overly involved in things, couldn't keep my mouth shut. When I'd made the point. I had to go on and reinforce the point. Colin Wynn So you were previously a DED, am I right? Chris Smallwood Yeah, Directly Elected Director, that's right, of the BAR. Colin Wynn Would you change anything in that term that you had? Because you said earlier that some parts that you would like to change in the BAR, you didn't give your best as such? Would you like to do that roll again? Chris Smallwood I think I would be better at it this time around. I've got the experience and knowledge but I also had the belief in myself, which I didn't believe I used to sit in meetings and not say an awful lot. And probably what I did wasn't particularly relevant at the time or I might come up with the odd nugget every now and again. But generally speaking, I don't think I've contributed in a way that I think was in the best interests of the association. I think I was very negative as well, by the way back in those days. I'm much more positive now. And again, mental health and depression makes you like that and I think I could contribute quite substantially now to the BAR, but I've never been asked and I've kind of taken a step back from all that lately. So, you know if anybody ever does decide to pick up the phone and speak to me, I would never say no again. I'd never say never. But whether it have the time these days not sure. Colin Wynn Definitely never say never Chris. Chris Smallwood No, never say never. Colin Wynn So where do you see yourself and the industry in the next five years? Is there anyone ready to step into your business shoes? Chris Smallwood Well, actually, I've got a strategy in place for mine. I've got an amazing I've been big on bringing females into the industry and I brought Ellen, Ellen Clay as she was, Ellen Hughes as she is now, into my business quite some time ago. I spotted Ellen when I was working for Britannia Cestrian for a very short time, and I realised what an absolute talent she was. And she now works for me. She is, I gave her 5% of my business to become a Director with me, because I value her that highly, she's intelligent, she's smart, she's talented, and she's my successor. She don't want to be, and she's telling me she's not, and she's not letting me retire. You're not retiring. Infact my wife was overhearing a phone call saying I'm retiring next year, she said no you're not, but no, she will be, but what I want to get some support and building blocks in place. I mean, I'll never leave the business, I'll never leave the industry, you know, you don't get good at, there's some things that you just don't get good at. And when you are good at something, you should hang on to it and enjoy it for what it is. And I enjoy, as daft as it sounds there's moments we all don't enjoy the industry. But I enjoy the industry in general. And I am good at it. And I realise that now but I'd like to just have it where I keep my hand in instead of working flat out like we are doing at the moment. Yeah, Ellen's next in command. Chris Smallwood In terms of the industry itself. It's been around a long, long, long, long time, three, four, maybe 500 years. I think if you start, probably longer than that, probably since the days of the Egyptians building pyramids I'm sure removals and haulage was involved. But yeah, I think that the industry is a very, very durable industry, I think it's I think it's resilient, I think the people in it are resilient as well, fantastically resilient actually, you wouldn't stay in this industry if you weren't. And I think it's got, I think the futures, always gonna have challenges. And we all know that with the advent of the departure from the EU, with or without a deal, and the current COVID crisis, these are all challenges, but we somehow always find a way of overcoming them, when I first took over the business in 2008, you know, it was one phone call a week and that was a salesperson. And so you know, the times change and technology's changing. I think people like you Colin with your software will play a significant part in making this industry far more efficient, better run and hopefully, as well more greener and environmentally friendly, which I think we aren't particularly good at at the moment. But I think it's something that we all need to work on, I think we all want to do the right thing for the kids and the grandkids. Colin Wynn Absolutely. Colin Wynn So what do you do outside of the industry to switch off? I know you've got your beloved Man City. Chris Smallwood Indeed. Yes, that's, that's well known amongst all, in fact I ring, Mr. Collingborn up at Lanes every now and again and say it's Pep Guardiola and of course, none of his colleagues know me very well. So they go I've got Pep Guardiola on the phone, and Matthew imediately falls off his chair laughing knowing what's coming next. But yeah, I do love my football, I'm passionate about Manchester City. I'm also passionate, a lot of people don't realise what my true passion is my rugby league team, which is York City Knights, which I played rugby league when I was younger, so it's a sport that's very close to my heart. So yeah, I enjoy my rugby league. I also enjoy getting out on my bike and riding it's the most cathartic thing you can do just get on your bike and ride and ride and ride, you come up with most of your business solutions on that bike ride so yeah, I enjoy that. Colin Wynn Are you a road bike or mountain bike? Chris Smallwood Road bike, man. Yeah, yeah, I keep telling people the next one might be the last one not because I don't like it but, because I keep thinking I'm gonna get knocked off at some point. So yeah, well, that is not without its risks. Let's put it that way. Colin Wynn I have both but I'm generally found on my mountain bike. Chris Smallwood Yeah, wise. Colin Wynn I'm not that keen on cycling down a road and having cars come, we can't socially distance at the moment, so you can't even get a car to stay past a metre away. But I prefer to just get out in the woods, out in the countryside. And yeah, get on my mountain bike and go. Chris Smallwood I love living on the edge Colin, I love living on the edge. Colin Wynn And finally, I like to end my podcasts with a funny moving story. Do you have one or more to tell? Chris Smallwood Of all your questions Colin, this is the one that vexed me the most because if you listen to all my funny moving stories they are all deeply censored, deeply censored or would cause deep offence to somebody. So the only one, I'm not even sure if this is funny, but it was funny to me and I think what's funny to my warped sense of humour compared with everybody else is open to, it's open to interpretation. But we, when I was working on the vans, I had a great mentor on the vans, a chap called Ronnie Wright, his son Nick works for McCarthy's of Leeds at the moment. And Ronnie was a, he was one of those people that as a wide eyed sort of 20 year old I used to look up to him because he had muscles and he was he was in his 60s but he was built like a brick house and he had these piercing dazzling blue eyes and because Nick's might listen in on this, I better not say too much more about his love life, but it was a complex thing, and I used to think god I wish I was like you Ronnie, and we went on a job one day and Ronnie was a very principled man a bit like me, we got to a job and it has been one that I'd actually surveyed so was still on the on the sort of interim between moving up and and working on the vans and it was a young Jewish lady, a lovely lass, I really got on with her. And when I went to see her in the survey, she told me why she was moving, she was moving to London because she had a guy over, well several of her neighbours were anti semitic, so they were making their life miserable. They were painting swastikas on the door and putting bricks through a window, and it was it was a horrendous, horrendous tale of horrible things they we're doing to her. And I said, well, listen, don't worry, we'll look after you. And so I actually, I can't even remember if I persuaded Ron to come on this with me or not because he wasn't one for getting on the vans and loading up vans, but we must have been busy that day and he came with me and because he was the warehouseman at Whitby Olivers. So, we arrived at this property and they're deliberately parked cars in front of her house, she put her bins out to sort of clear space, and they parked their cars there and thrown her bins on the floor and put all the rubbish on the side. So Ron and I arrived and we tidied up the rubbish we put the bins back and I said right Ron, who's gonna go over and knock on these doors and and ask them to move the cars. And he went we'll do it together, I said right, well I'll start with this one and that you do that one. So we knocked on the doors and the first three were a bit grumpy but eight o'clock in the morning dragged out they were prepared to move the cars even though they put them there just to be obstructive. So they moved the cars but the fourth one was less accommodating. I knocked on his door and he just said eff off if you pardon the phrase. So I went and I said to Ron, I said to Ron I said I've asked that guy but he's, he's not keen to move. He said, leave it with me. So he walked over and he knocked politely on the door initially in the chap came to the window just like he had with me, he was walking down from the first floor with his robe on and he shouted no sorry, mate what you want, and he goes can you move your car and he went no, same reaction. So, he came back into the house with me did Ronnie so I thought he's going to come up with a strategy here is Ronnie he's going to come up with a strategy of how we get this, get this vehicle in. And so he said to the lady, which one is your big problem neighbour? And she duly pointed to the one we just knocked at the door of. He said right I just wanted to check first so we walked back out of the house stormed across the road and thumped on the door with a fearsome bang and the bloke came, who do you think you are banging on my door, and this row ensured, and I was thinking oh this is not going to end well this, so he kept banging on the door and he said I'm not going to stop banging until you come down and move your car. He said I'm not going to move it, well that's okay, you see that 18 tonne truck he said, that 18 tonne truck's got a grill that will sustain the weight of your car, so when I drive into the back of it and ram it the rest of the way down this street he said, you can go and pick it up and clear it so cars can get through, and this bloke came down and he and and as he walked out the door he squared up to Ron, now Ron is not a bloke you square up to, he was an ex army boxer from what I recall. And Ron just walked over and said come on then and walked towards him and I've never seen a guy move so quick in my life, he just shot from where he was straight into his car, and Ron when after him, he didn't just leave at you got the result Ron just park it and move on. No, he went after him and the guy shot off down the street and I don't know how we got back in his house but I'm guessing he must have run round in his slippers around the back lane that was was around the back of his house and gone back into his house there. And the face of the lady in the house was, it was just fantastic, she was crying her eyes out and she was crying her eyes out in fear, absolute fear, and Ron said I don't know why you're crying love, you've got nothing to fear while we're here and I'm thinking god Ron what have you done. No complaint, nothing, as far as I'm aware, Andy Dickerson was totally oblivious to all this going on so, so yeah, it is what it is. Colin Wynn I'll have to pop Nick an email and let him know about that story and he can listen in. Chris Smallwood Yeah, I had a lot of good memories with Ron, I could tell you so many that, frankly, would encourage my staff to misbehave so I'm not going to! Colin Wynn I suppose that's the only trouble with these stories, and you're the boss of the company. Chris Smallwood Yeah just remeber, that was then, this is now. Colin Wynn Chris. It's been an absolute pleasure to record this episode with you, absolute pleasure, and it's great to see you again. Chris Smallwood I've enjoyed it, thank you. Colin Wynn Many thanks. Transcribed by https://otter.ai