Colin Wynn Good morning, David. Welcome to Moving Matters. How are you today? David Bunting Good morning Colin. I'm very well indeed. Thank you, as I trust you are. Colin Wynn I am indeed. Colin Wynn David, you were mentioned by Gary Wheadon of D Sully and Son, and Nigel Shaw of Specialised Movers, both previous guests of the podcast who hold you in very high regard. So with that, I just had to approach you as a guest of Moving Matters. So I sincerely thank you for giving up your time today, to record this episode with me. Colin Wynn You have a long established career within the removal industry. Can you tell everyone a little about yourself and the length of time in this industry? David Bunting I can indeed Colin in fact, if you look at the industry generally, I've been in an industry, which is a transport industry for 60 years would you believe, which is a heck of a long time but in the removal industry, a little bit less than that. Actually that kicked off in 1983, as far as pure removals are concerned, and that was in the specialist branch of removals in commercial moving, not domestic moving. So that's my background I am knocking on a little bit now I was Born in 1943. In Preston, had an education at Preston Grammar School, and started my first ever job at the age of 16, as a Traffic Clark, sticking labels, on envelopes that I thought at the time was a pretty important job. But I subsequently discovered that I got it because nobody else wanted to do it. Colin Wynn A Traffic Clark? You put labels on envelopes? David Bunting Yeah, well, somebody had to do it, you see, because things had to be sent out every day, regarding traffic movements from all the different branches of what was then Pickford's Heavy Haulage to all the other branches. And then you pick up on what the vehicles were moving, were doing and moving from and to throughout the United Kingdom. And then if it was, there's an opportunity to use one of those vehicles for back loading purposes, you could then do it and reduce dead time and dead running, if that makes sense. But, you know, we're talking days here prior to computers, and everything was sort of Pony Express. Colin Wynn Not pigeons? David Bunting Not quite, no, there were pigeons around, but we shot those. Colin Wynn So you were a Traffic Clark, where did you progress from there? David Bunting Well, I progressed to being the Traffic Manager. After about four years when the manager of the Depo was promoted. And my immediate boss, who was the Traffic Clark was promoted to Manager. So I moved up a grade to be in the actual Traffic Manager, and that really was operating a fleet of six vehicles throughout the United Kingdom. That was my branch in Preston. But the number one customer was it was then known as English Electric, a name that might be familiar with you. They became British Aerospace, and then whatever, whatever it is now, but in those days, they used to make diesel engines, those diesel engines went into locomotives both within the United Kingdom and abroad. So I was very heavily involved in providing low loaders, as they were then to transport these diesel engines that would weigh up to about 25 tonnes to all the different places within the UK that put them into the shells, the carcasses, turn them into diesel locomotives that ran on railways. Other things were happening as well, at the same time, of course, it wasn't just locomotives, it was plant and machinery, boilers, transformers, anything big and heavy that required shifting via specialist transport throughout the UK. Colin Wynn And you were still at a very young age when you became the manager. David Bunting And I was at the age of 20/21. Yes, that's true. It was it wasn't a large branch for larger branches than mine, certainly Manchester, Glasgow and in London, because these were the hotbeds of heavy industry that time sadly, doesn't happen anymore. They've all disappeared, gone abroad. And we don't make anything of ourselves anymore. We bade him from abroad. So it's tragic, really the way things have changed in a relatively short period of time. Colin Wynn Yeah, couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. And where did you progress from there? David Bunting Promotions led me to Liverpool, Newcastle, Derby, and then Sheffield. Derby was my first full managerial appointment in terms of managing the whole branch. And then that led to a promotion in Sheffield, which was a big Centre for heavy industry, as you can well imagine, based on Sheffield steel. And in those days I was involved in moving some huge plant, most notably heavy stuff that was manufactured in Germany and brought to the United Kingdom for machining and from there it was sent down to London for installation in the Thames barrier project, which is virtually the mouth of the Thames. And at various times of the year when there's a flood tide or whatever, they press the button, the barrier goes up and prevents London from flooding. So I suppose I had a very, very small part in preventing our capital city from going underwater. Colin Wynn I'm sure was a much bigger part than that, David, I'm sure it was. David Bunting But they were they were not, not have me down on any credited list I'm afraid, but it doesn't really matter. And then after that, because things were changing in heavy haulage not just in the industry, but also with the company itself. There's a need to, in my view, get out. I didn't like what was happening. I didn't like the management structure. I didn't like the culture. I didn't like what was happening. It was in accordance with my principles. So I decided to get out after 20 years with them, which is rather sad, but I felt it was necessary. And I joined a company in Preston that was also involved in heavy haulage and crane hire and I stayed with them for three years. Now I enjoyed that stint it was good. But it was frustrating in that the company was run by and owned by a couple of brothers. And I could see that I wasn't going to make any progress. There's no opportunity for me to take over any particular division or department because they were in charge of it. So recognising that it was a dead end job. I started to look around for something different. I picked up a copy of the then I think it was Motor Transport, and saw an advert in that paper for a manager for the then Giltspur Bullens Transport Services to manage your Depo for them in Newton-le-Willows, which is on Merseyside and quite close to St. Helens. So I applied for the job. And remarkably got it the man who interviewed me was an ex Pickfords guy Pickfords Removals guy. So he understood where I'd been with Pickfords Heavy Haulage, he understood, you know, the Pickfords name. And I got the job back in 1983. The position was becoming created because the fellow who was in charge of the Depo, then was moving down to London to head office to head of a particular division. So that created the vacancy for me to take over that particular position in Newton-le-Willows, so that's when it all started off. So I was moving from an environment of shifting heavy plant. Most notably the heaviest piece by the way that I was involved there were 2000 tonnes, you think thousand tonnes against moving desks, chairs, filing cabinets, or computers. There's a big difference but I picked up the skills I think fairly quickly. And that was the start of my involvement with the removal industry as we know it now. David Bunting So going back to the heavy haulage as you call it with Pickfords, that was purely heavy haulage. It wasn't commercial removals. It wasn't domestic, it wasn't shipping just purely large objects needed to be transported from A to B? David Bunting Correct. Yeah, it also involves shifting the stuff not just on the wheels, but manually because there was machine handling and I suppose you would call it. Once you'd offloaded a big piece from a low loader or a big transporter it then needed edging into final position. So you'd have crews of men that had the tackle to be able to do those finishing off type of operations. There's also crane hire involved, but nothing big. In those days, the biggest crane that Pickfords had would lift 25 tonnes, but later on, other companies came into the business and they were capable of lifting pieces that weighed 1000 tonnes so you could see how that particular part of the industry had progressed. And those cranes were manufactured abroad. Once again, we missed our way as British engineers and we were buying equivalent in from Germany to be able to do what we should have been able to do. But again, rather sad because the way things are going. Colin Wynn So at Giltspur Bullens when you became the manager, that's when you first then got involved in the whole domestic, commercial, shipping side of the removal industry? David Bunting Yep. But not domestic Colin because the lets just retrace the steps some more when I joined Bullens or as it was then called Giltspur Bullens Transport Services. They were owned by Grand Met, Grand Metropolitan Hotels, which is a strange sort of bedfellow to be with, but they're then sold them on sold Giltspur Bullens Transport Services onto Unigate and Unigate then decided that we're not a really good fit for the business because Unigate were really dairy people. They sold the business on to Wincanton, who we're a transport company. We didn't fit well, with Wincanton, because they liked long term arrangements and Bullens was very much involved in day to day type operations, they then sold them on to Pickfords. So that's when I, the closer involvement with removals, specifically commercial removals was coming in into being. Giltspur Bullens Transport Services had been specialists in business moving, as opposed to domestic moving. So I was very comfortable with that particular type of moving and then got into it very quickly. So much so that after a couple of years, I was given additional responsibility of finding a manager for and running under my belt, the Glasgow operation. And then as I suppose I've made a bit of an impression in that area. I was also given one of the London operations to look after as well. So apart from running my own operation in the North of England, I was also having control of Glasgow and an operation in London. So that continued for quite some time. Colin Wynn From 1983, when you were at Giltspur Bullens, that prompted your involvement with the BAR? David Bunting Correct. Yes, that's right. David Bunting Interesting situation that because I hadn't been in the job long, possibly only a matter of months, when I started to get invitations from I don't know they came from the from from head office to associate myself with area meetings that were held by the British Association of Removers. So I phoned up my then boss, a guy called Aubrey Appleton, I think you will have heard that name before from Gary Wheadon, a great guy. Absolutely great guy. Aubrey was the sort of fellow who would say, David jump, and you didn't say why you said how high, Aubrey. There are not many people that I've come across in my many years that I would have done that for but Aubrey was that sort of guy. So I phoned him up and said, Aubrey, I've got this letter here about going to an area meeting of the British Aassociation of Removers, what's it all about? So he told me a little bit, he said, David, I recommend that you go, it will not do any harm whatsoever in your career. You'll meet an awful lot of good people. And you'll learn a lot more about the removal industry, and certainly the commercial moving industry. And so I went to my first meeting, which was held in Manchester. There must have been 50 removers. They're both domestic and commercial. And that was my first introduction to that business area. Colin Wynn Excellent. We'll come back to the BAR a little bit later. But I just wanted to touch on it there because I see that you started going to the area meetings and 83. So you're now area manager, Giltspur Bullens, and then you leave and go where? David Bunting I left to, let's get this right chronologically, because I was with Bullens for quite some time, but they were taken over by Pickfords. And Pickfords had a peculiar way in those days, a peculiar way of working, which I wasn't particularly comfortable with, and certainly not the culture. And because of those culture changes and the way things were going, I decided to do something different. And I joined a company based in Preston, which happened to be my hometown who were looking for somebody who would develop their office or commercial business. And that's what I did. I joined whittle Movers back In January of 1996, and started an office and commercial division for them. Which they'd no knowledge about whatsoever. But given my background, with Giltspur Bullens and with Pickfords, I did know something about it. And I welcomed that opportunity to get involved, really, to be able to put into practice what I thought I could offer. Because when you're with a large outfit, you're very much constrained by their own ideas and cultures, and what you should do what you shouldn't do, which was rather frustrating at times, and therefore I had a chance to do my own thing, and to put into place what I thought was right for the business, and right for success. And that's when it all kicked off really, as me being me with Whittle Movers based in Preston. Colin Wynn And you built that up to a considerable size and as you say, success, I see Whittle Movers won Commercial Mover of the Year. David Bunting Yes indeed they did and I'm very proud of the fact that they achieved that objective. Colin Wynn You weren't judging at the time, though David? I just need to get in, because you'll upset Nigel If he knows that you were the judge. David Bunting No, no, I have a great relationship with Nigel. He's a real character in the industry, he's a good friend of mine has been for a long time. What can I say about that. No, I was, I was a judge for the competition. That's, when did that kick off? It kicked off around about 1998 the judging bit, but I suppose we're jumping ahead a little bit there aren't we? Colin Wynn Yeah, we'll come back to that, because I have a question on on your judging. So yeah, Whittles, you grew their commercial side, because I remember coming to Whittles once or twice and bumped into you at Whittles offices at the time. You grew that to a considerable size. So to start from nothing and build a commercial division was some undertaking. David Bunting Do you know, I really relished that as well Colin because it, it was an opportunity that really appealed to me. When I joined on day one, 15th of January 1996. All I had with Whittles was an office, a desk, a chair, a phone, a car, and a brain. And they wanted me to start an office a commercial division for them. They had no idea what was involved in it. They've done a bit of office and commercial, but purely on a reactive basis. If somebody had phoned up and said, Would you come and do a little office move for us? They would do that. But they had no idea how, how to develop it from there. I had that background with Bullens. I was therefore able to put into place what I thought was right for the Whittle business to progress. So as I say that kicked off in 1996. Within two years I'd made such an impression, they said that they offered me a directorship. So I was very pleased about that. those early days. I had an awful lot of support from them, because they knew nothing about commercial moving. I knew a lot about it for my Bullens days. So I was able to put into practice what I thought was going to be successful. And it was successful, because I had that directorship with the business after two years, and then just grew and grew. It grew from a turnover of absolutely nothing. Until 12 years later, when I was retiring 2008 it became a business with a turnover of 3 million pounds, operating not just out of Preston, but out of the Midlands and out of London as well. So I was very proud, I think and I think rightly so of what had been achieved within a relatively short period of time. Colin Wynn How did you go about doing something like that? Because I mean, most removers will say yes, yes, yes, I do offices and commercial removals. But to me, if I said, Can you move my company, for example, that's not to me an office and commercial move. That's just an office relocation and office commercial move is more. You've got multiple floors in a big office and you've got hundreds of desks and you'll be working probably through the evenings or weekends, not necessarily during the week, but you're just shuffling desks and filing cabinets all over the place. That to me is a proper office and commercial unless I've got that completely wrong, but that's how I see it. How did you go about, you know, because, as you say, they had some experience of office moves, but not in the scale that you would have got them to start doing? David Bunting Well obviously, I add some contacts for my Bullens days, had some contacts. So when I joined when I joined Whittles, I had some contacts who followed me, that was a little bit scary and hairy at the time, because I wasn't sure who was going to stay with the original business of Bullens or follow me into the Whittle Group. A lot of people followed me into the Whittle Group, because I think the reputation I'd formed and it gave me a bit of a kickstart in that business. So I had an idea where to start looking for my business leads and to to build up the business with them. Colin Wynn So what challenges have you had to overcome in the industry? David Bunting Crumbs. When you're making your way, with a brand new division, you've got a lot of competitors around, who are determined to make sure that if so far as possible, that you you're not really successful, because you're treading on toes. But I was equally determined to be successful, because I think I thought I knew what I needed to do to make my way in that particular business. So because of the contacts that I had from, from my Bullens days, and starting off brand new with Whittle, I was able to make some inroads in that respect. It helped being involved with the removal industry, with the British Association of Removers with whom I've been heavily involved with, with Bullens, and that gave me a bit of a kickstart as well. So I counted that very important, and very helpful. Colin Wynn And if you could change anything from your past from within the industry, what would it be? David Bunting I would, it would not be an awful lot, really, because, and I'll explain why that may sound a little bit odd to come up with that sort of response. But when you're at a junior level, you are subject to the change that's being put in by one's superiors of one's bosses and the companies that you're working for. So the changes are being applied from above, and you as an employee go along with those changes. It was only really when I got down to involvement with Whittles and therefore, my last 12 years in the industry, that I had full reign to do things my way or the way I thought they should go. And what would I change there? Well, I suppose some of my staff selections, didn't prove to be particularly good. And individuals that I thought would do a good job for me actually let me down and cost me money as well at the same time, that I found it very disappointing. I did give people it was my management style, I gave people quite a lot of rope. But I'd laid down the parameters through wish they could operate. And some of them sort of exceeded that and went off and were a little bit lazy, let's put it that way. So I suppose I would change some of the appointments that I made. Colin Wynn And what is your high point of working within the industry? David Bunting Well the high point undoubtedly and I'm going to cheat here Colin I'm going to list five of them if I may, rather than singular. The high point undoubtedly was being made President of the British Association of Removers, that in 2005 really was the pinnacle. I enjoyed my role in that job very much indeed. So that was number one. Three years after that, I was given an honorary life membership of the association. So that was certainly a high point number two, high point number three was also being given an honorary life membership of the commercial moving group. That was the first time anybody within that group had been appointed as an honorary life member. So I feel particularly privileged to have been number one in that regard. Number four was moving the BAR head office out of North Harrow to Watford back in 2005. That was happening during my presidency. That was just a coincidence in a way that the purchase of Watford had been made during that time. And I'll tell you what, Colin, I was absolutely damn certain that no other removal company was going to get that job when I was President, okay, so I not only did it I did it well, obviously. But I did it free of charge. So it didn't cost the association a penny. Colin Wynn Wow. too generous David too generous. David Bunting I did the costing afterwards to see what it had cost me. It cost me around about 5000 pounds. Right So I took that on the chin. And I was pleased to do so because he gave me quite a bit of street cred. The fact that I do shifted BAR's head office, both within the industry and outside. So obviously, marketed that as much as I possibly could, when I was talking to the marketplace. So that was a high point. David Bunting And then the last high point, I mean, I've come up with four there that are BAR associated, that undoubtedly in business, my high point was starting and making a success of my own division in commercial moving with Whittle Movers. To come into that situation, having left Bullens at the age of 52. And starting something brand new. And taking it from a position of absolutely nothing whatsoever. Apart from having a car, a desk, a chair, a filing cabinet, one or two customers that I was aware of from my Bullens days and a brain, starting off from absolutely zero and leaving it in 2008, that's 12 years down the line, as a very healthy commercial player with three branches, Preston the Midlands and down south. And the group turned over a 3 million pounds. I think without being big headed was no mean achievement. I didn't do it all on my own. Obviously, I was the the man who headed the division. And I set the policy and I set the rules. I appointed staff, moved things along. And some of the right people who did join me and stayed with me were good players. And they helped me to really move it along. So that was a high point in business to do that over a 12 year stint. Colin Wynn What one thing would you change within the industry as a whole? David Bunting I think the one thing I would change if I was able to do so would be the perception that is held by the general public of the removal industry. That perception has been created over a long period of time. It has that enduring image of cloth cap, a smock as sort of a primitive sort of organisation. And that has been perpetuated by the media, with various programmes on TV, and sadly perpetuated by the industry itself. Colin Wynn How can we improve perception then David, any ideas? David Bunting I think people who are in the industry, and it's a big industry, the BAR is only a small part of the large industry. And the problem is one of the problems is it's so easy to get into. You don't even need a van. All you need is a couple of men who have some idea of how to lift shift furniture. And they hire a van. They turn up with a bit of equipment. And off they go. And they pretend to be removals experts. Some of them get a van and they'll put the slogans on the side of international and national Movers. But that's just a facade. Of course they're not at all. It's that white van, man and van image that is still around and I can't see how that's going to shift in the short or even medium term, apart from legislation. What form that has got to take to bring it to a certain level that eliminates or reduces the effect of the white van man. I don't know. And there's a, it's almost bizarre in a way in that one's got to be careful here because those some of the the big players in in removals are where they are now, because there were once white van man. Colin Wynn We all have to start from somewhere. David Bunting Everybody has to start from somewhere. So you've got to be very careful that you don't suddenly say, Well, you know I did it. But you can't do it anymore, because I'm now there. I've got a nice big van or a nice big fleet. And I've got the livery and I've got certificates and I've got the accreditations. But you can't come into the field now unless you get similar. It's sort of contradictory, I think in that respect. But I suppose an answer to your question, legislation has got to be behind driving the profession forward. Colin Wynn Yeah, and like websites and just touching on IT for a moment websites. Lots of people go online to find removal companies these days. And it's so easy to have a website to portray, I was on one last year and it totally threw me because this website portrayed that it was a large removal company, they did commercial moves, they did shipping, you name it, they pretty much did it. And lo and behold, they had a gallery section on their website. And that really, really threw me because I did go to the gallery section. And in such a section was photographs of their vehicles. All they had was two transit vans. But their perceived perception was that obviously they were much bigger than what they actually were. Now, obviously, they were still doing removals and that, you know, but it's just that again, perception, you can be much bigger than what you actually are. So I think legislation does need to come into it to say well Okay, you can be a remover but you need to pass these certain criteria first. Maybe Geoff was right in a previous episode, maybe it should be all hire and reward should to have O-licences. David Bunting Yeah, certainly slick marketing can get you a long way. But I still think that legislation be even it might be returned to the licencing, the o-licencing situation might well be a way forward. But it's got to be legislative somewhere down the line. Colin Wynn You are now retired from the industry, 12 years I believe, do you miss the day to day of the industry, or are you too busy enjoying retirement with the wife, the kids, the grandchildren? David Bunting I'm still involved Colin that's the strange thing. It sort of gets hold of you, and doesn't let go. When I was retiring, when I was coaching, my sort of early 60s around about 61/62. I couldn't see myself retiring. I was so involved in the business, I thought I was going to go on for quite some time. But round about the age of 62/63. I had a light bulb moment, it almost happened overnight, almost instantaneous. And I thought, David, you're coming to the end of your time in this business. Now. You've got to make steps and prepare to get out. And from that time on, that's the way I looked at things that I was going to get out at the age of 65. When I reached the age of 65. on that particular day, I would resign as a director from the Whittle Group and step back. Now I was able to do it gently in a way because whilst I was going to quit the business involvement. I still retained my interest in and involvement with the BAR. I was an honorary life member anyway of the association. I could continue with my links with the area, the Northwest area with which I've been involved from the very start with the commercial moving group as well of course, which I continued with and having finished with business I was able then to take on a position as a judge of the commercial mover of the year competition. So when I was cutting myself off from business I wasn't cutting myself off from the profession as such. So I was gently as it were either letting myself down or being let down by the Association so but I still found time for other activities. I have to give credit to my wife here because she has been with me right from the very start all the way through and absolutely wonderfully supportive. And she was also retiring when I was retiring from her job in a old folks home in Preston. Perhaps I should have gotten to that old folks home, who knows? She was retiring. And when she retired and retired at the same time, she said hang on David, you told me you were going to retire you're not retired, I'm retiring from my business, we're going to spend more time together with the kids and the grandkids, etc, etc. You've not done that. And I said well look love you know I'm actually doing this for your benefit because if I did retire completely, I would be like a bear with a sore head and you wouldn't really not want to live with me. So I got around it that way but I have found time for obviously kids, grandkids, golf, gardening, a bit of walking, following my beloved Preston North End. So I you know, there's been other activities as well, but I have to pay due respect to my beloved and make sure that I think of her with whatever we do. And we do quite a few things together anyway. Colin Wynn So you've been involved with the BAR in various capacities over the years. And I guess the pinnacle of which must have been becoming President in 2005. What does it take to become the president? And what does your role involve? David Bunting What it takes basically Colin is to get involved. And let's go back to those early days when I first became aware of the BAR, having taken up a position with Bullens, as a manager in the northwest area, Depo at Newton-le-Willows, and I found out that the company Bullens was involved with this organisation called the BAR. And I phoned up my then boss Aubrey Appleton, and asked what it was all about, and should I get involved, and he said, David, you should do so because you'll meet an awful lot of good people. And it'll do tremendous, tremendous good as you develop your role, although your commercial mover, you'll find out more about domestic moving, that will be of great value to you. So I went on to my first meeting. And that first meeting was attended by about 50 of the worthies in the BAR. The Northwest area was a very strong area at that time has been traditionally for a long time. And in fact, when I joined, I think it had been responsible for providing the BAR with four presidents over a period of about 20/25 years, which is quite a record. So I was sat in a room there of 50 worthies mostly domestic Movers. You had the Masons of this world, the Maxteads of this world Pickfords, Johnson's, Robinsons, White's, a lot of the big players were represented there, and I'm sat there and listening to what's going on. And I thought at the end, it may not be my field, but I want to know more about it. So I carried on going to the area meetings. And I carried on going to the area meetings, and I got to know people and they got to know me, until the day came when the then representative on the National Council for the area. That was Paul Fahey, great guy. So David, he said, I'm quitting my role as the representative for the Northwest area. Would you consider taking it over? And I said, Yes, I would. In fact, I'll do it. I think I've got to know more about the area and what it expected of its representative, through attending regularly, all the meetings. So I took on the role and I was in that position, would you believe for 13 years, representing the Northwest area, on that National Council, obviously carried on attending the area. In 1990, the commercial moving group was formed and I thought, hang on, this is right up my street. So I've got to get involved here. So I put my name forward for the Council of the CMG, I became a council member in 1993, I became chairman of that Council in due course, oh, by the way, I also was given the chairmanship of the Northwest area, the appropriate time. So you can see are starting to get involved then with the BAR. And it's different activities. And in different capacities, chairman of the National Council and chairman of the commercial moving group, that then led to my being noticed by the people on the board the board of management at the BAR as someone who, you know, wanted to get more and more involved and commit to the BAR. And then I was approached by John Court, who was then the sort of kingmaker, of the BAR to put my name forward for the presidency of the BAR. And I said, John, thank you for the invitation. But I'm sorry, I can't take this on at the moment. David, why not? He said, Well, I said, John, I've only been with Whittles now, a few years, I'm still building up the division and to take on the role of President and all the time that would be expected of that, that role. And continue to develop my own division, would be too much. So thank you, but at this particular time, I have to say no. And I put the phone down and I thought crumbs, David, if you blown it here, will they give you a second chance, but they did. They came back and asked again. And at that time, I could say yes, I can do it because my division had grown to such an extent that I had staff around me, that could keep it going ticking, well not just ticking over but growing it. But I took over the BAR role. The BAR role then as president was a far greater role than exists now because of course, the BAR has a director general. In my day it had a general secretary and a board of management rather than a board of directors. And that situation is entirely different from pertains now. The President was probably 40% I reckoned of my time was spent on presidential matters and BAR matters, only leaving 60% for Whittles. So it really was very demanding. But I enjoyed it. It led me to going to conferences to the BAR, a Fedemac conference in Dublin, a American Moving Association Conference in Florida. So I got to know movers from Europe and from America. And of course, as President, you go around the areas, it also gave me the chance to get to know the overseas group a little bit more, I knew very little about them. Although, of course, it was some big, big players in the overseas group. I attended their council meetings and got to know the big people in that particular functional group. So I suppose the answer would be, as I said, right at the very start, I got involved and by getting involved, I got to know a heck of a lot about the association. Colin Wynn So in 2008, you were made honorary life member of the BAR, how does one go about earning that Honour? David Bunting I think the best way to describe that one Colin is reading out from the citation, which was contained on the certificate I was given, which is quite simply, the Board of management of the British Association of Removers is pleased to award David Bunting honorary life membership of the Association, in recognition and grateful appreciation of his contribution to the BAR, through his many years dedicated service, loyalty and the support given to the northwest area, the commercial moving group as president in 2005/6 and the association in general. So that's the citation that was presented to me and I suppose that really sums it up. I got involved in the BAR as much as I possibly could. Colin Wynn In 2003, you were awarded Commercial Mover of the Year with Whittle Movers, and you have been a judge of the competition since 2008, only allowing Nigel Shaw of Specialised Movers to win it once, and he's most upset. What is involved in the judging of such a competition? And how fine are the margins between the finalist? David Bunting Right, well I need to backtrack there, Colin as inevitably, whilst I was in the association and winning the award myself, I could not take on a judging role then, it would be contradictory. I couldn't be a judge, whilst I was an entrant to the competition, and rightly so. So I didn't take on the judging role until 2008 when I had retired fully from my involvement with Whittles and stepping down from that role. So that gave me the opportunity to take on that judging role. And fortunately, in the main I was respected by the Council as being someone who would be seen to be and to be seen to be totally impartial. Apart from one individual, no names, no pack drill, who challenged my appointment as a judge and reckoned that because I was a judge, he would not enter the competition, because I would be biassed. That comment he made upset me greatly because I'm not that sort of guy. I was quite able to be impartial. In fact, although he said he would not enter the competition. Somebody else entered his company in that competition allegedly behind his back. I don't know if that was the case. And believe it or not, the next year, his company won the award of commercial mover of the year. So that sort of blew his argument totally out of the water. That he thought that I would be a biassed judge, funnily enough, he's never apologised for that comment since which is so sad, because when I was judging in that competition, and as I do and have done right for the last 12 years. I don't judge the individuals who run the company, I judge the company in total, because the way it's structured is quite simply this. It has gone through several transformations over the period of time that it existed since those early days. And its current structure is that each entrant submits the names of six clients of what they consider to be their best moves in a particular period of time, which is generally a calendar year. And those moves are distributed between three judges. Each judge gets two cases to follow up. And that follow up means a telephone conversation with those clients of the remover to find out exactly what happened in those moves. And it's almost a cat and mouse sort of game in that the mover submits their six best cases, rightly so, and it's up to us as judges to get under the surface of those moves and find out exactly what has gone on. We then allocate marks against a variety of disciplines, right from start to finish of an operation. And those marks are out of 100 per case study. So three judges two cases, each multiply by 100 gives a total number of marks of 600. And you'll see there Colin that when there are that many marks at stake, and three judges operating, unless all three judges are seeing things from almost similar perspectives, although the judges don't consult during the judges process. Unless they come up with the same sort of results. And awarding high marks, it's almost impossible, well it is impossible for one judge to have that level of effect on the competition. And so when you say that Nigel Shaw is a little bit upset that I blocked, it certainly isn't the way, it can't be that way. And he knows darn well it isn't that way. David Bunting He just wants more awards to put on his wall, that's all he wants. David Bunting He has 10 already as he, that's quite enough. Well, his last one was 2012 I think when he won it 2012, I still think he uses that in his marketing material, as a proud winner of the commercial mover of the year competition. Colin Wynn And everybody should use it, everybody should be proud of winning, the commercial mover, the domestic mover of the year, overseas mover of the year, everybody should be proud, they should market the hell out of it, it's one hell of an achievement. Colin Wynn I take it, this takes up an awful lot of your time then judging? David Bunting I've now finished and 12 years is I think quite enough. I thought it was time to step back a little bit. Partly because I hadn't been terribly well that there was some health issues at stake. And I thought well, maybe this is giving me a chance to step back. And it was also time to let somebody else have a go and and do it. Although Believe you me Colin, I really have enjoyed that judging and talking to the customers and finding out what's been going on. The standard has certainly been rising year on year and the commercial movers who even enter can be very proud of the way that they've conducted their business with their customers. The marks are getting higher every time. The margins as you alluded to before, are extremely fine. And it can only take just a few marks either way to swing it. So the three finalists they go forward for further judging with the QSS, the Quality Service Standards organisation, fully owned subsidiary of the BAR. And they go through a judging process by the QSS inspectors, and the QSS inspectors award marks out of 50. So the top three, whose marks are the best top marks out of the 600 marks available, then go forward and have another 50 marks at QSS's disposal for award. And then the winner comes out of those top three and then become the overall winner of the commercial mover of the competition, and deservedly so. Colin Wynn Absolutely. Absolutely. Colin Wynn What advice would you give to a young David Bunting just starting out in the industry? David Bunting Get involved, whatever you do get involved. It was possibly more difficult in my days, because you had to be really evolved with a BAR company to make any progress. But now there is a special category being set up by the BAR of individual membership. So you can get involved an individual working for a non BAR company can become a individual member, and take up the privileges that BAR members enjoy. You can attend area meetings, you could attend conferences, you can attend training classes. So that's a tremendous change, which I've been fully in favour of and I support that initiative. It's great. So certainly, I would say definitely get involved. And you can do that through that individual membership and attend the area meetings and get to know people and attend training courses. Let them get to know you. And you could ask advice, which is always available, funnily enough, even from your competitors because it's a funny sort of industry. Competitors are quite willing to point you on the right road and give you advice. And of course, there's tonnes of advice available at head office at Watford, so in BAR terms, or in removal terms generally, that's what I would say seek advice, get involved. And don't be afraid to ask and accept responsibility. If there is a position available within an area, at the moment we're operating in virtual area meeting days. But when those are over in the meetings, get back to normal, there will undoubtedly be vacancies for a vice chairman an assistant secretary and vice treasurer. Maybe a representative on the National Council, as happened to me. So there are roles that can be taken and assist in your own development, David Bunting But that apart, what I would say is this. If you're going to do something, do it to the very best of your ability. Whatever you do, do it to the very best of your ability. And whatever you say you'll do, do it. I think those two pieces of advice apply right across the board. It certainly advice that I hoped I gave myself and applied myself that way round, President Kennedy, the United States used to say to the American people don't ask what your country can do for you ask instead what you can do for your country. And you can transpose that into BAR speak and don't ask what the BAR can do for you ask what you instead can do for the BAR. And above all, I would suggest value integrity. Make sure that you're the sort of person who can command some respect, and is noted for being trustworthy and reliable. I've tried to do my best that way, and valued my own integrity, which is, I think, seen by those who work with me as being part of my makeup. And therefore I would say to any aspiring mover, do exactly the same, value integrity, be noted for what you do, you will make progress. So I think that sums it up Colin really. Colin Wynn Well you most definitely have, you are a true gentleman of this industry. And I am so privileged to have you on the podcast. I absolutely am, so I thank you for that. Colin Wynn I agree with you. As people say you only get out what you put in. If you're not prepared to put anything in to the BAR, the area meetings, that sort of thing, then you're not really going to get much out of it. Colin Wynn Individual BAR membership. I've actually had that for many years, I would recommend that to anybody that doesn't have BAR membership, it is the fastest invoice I pay. As soon as that invoice arrives, that payment is sent immediately, it's down tools pay it. I couldn't be without my magazine and I've been able to attend area meetings and conferences. So I would definitely, I would definitely get involved with that. Colin Wynn Where do you see the industry in the next five years? Now, I know you've been retired for 12, but you're still involved in it, do you see any changes in the industry at all? David Bunting There's going to be changes Colin inevitably, because we're coming out of the European involvement. Brexit will kick in, really start to kick in as in from the beginning of next year. What form that will take in terms of its effect on our relationship with Europe and legislation with respect to our own businesses, and our own industry, we don't know. But undoubtedly, over the next few years, and maybe five years is about the right length of time. There's going to be an effect on British business and British industry and the removal sector as well. So whilst I'd like to speculate, it's a bit difficult to do so because we don't know how the European marketplace is going to be acceptive of us and the worldwide marketplace as well because that's got to change and adapt to our new situation. So I think I would just hesitate to come up with anything positive there Colin apart from saying watch this space really. Colin Wynn I think that's all we can do with Brexit. Colin Wynn So what does a retired remover do to switch off now that you've left the industry? What are your interests, you touched on them briefly, 20/30 minutes ago, remind us, what are your, what does David do to switch off? David Bunting David doesn't switch off Colin. Colin Wynn Why does that not surprise me? David Bunting It won't happen, if I've got honorary life membership of the BAR and honorary life membership of the CMG, I've got no chance of switching off. And I don't want to, I don't want to because I've made a lot of friends in this industry, and I love going to conferences, I love going to the area meetings. So that will always be a part of me. Colin Wynn Good. We don't want you to switch off. Nobody wants you to switch off. We always want David at the area meetings and conferences. David Bunting And I hope they still want me around as well, but, obviously golf, I'm not a very good golfer. I did win the BAR golf competition a couple of times. But those are in the days when I was fairly useful at the game. But that's not the case now, but I do enjoy playing with my son, or my son's plural they're both good golfers far better than me now. I'm afraid. And they're very condescending, and pat me on the head and say, Come on, dad, you can do better than that. But I can't I'm afraid, I've reached my limit. So golf, gardening, I enjoy gardening. My wife and I enjoy seeing and spending time with our kids and our grandkids. Not easy at the moment of course with the COVID situation and that's very, very frustrating. But that will one day be over and we will get back to normal. Preston North End is a great interest of mine. Colin Wynn Which by the way, I have to bring it back up. Nigel wants a wager on this. Nigel still reckons that Sheffield Wednesday even with their points deduction is going to finish higher than Preston North End and he wants a wager on it. So I'll let you two sort that one out. David Bunting Nigel can have that wager but whether he will honour it Colin, it remains to be seen. He'll come up with an excuse at the end of the day. Why Preston, another excuse that will be, apart from the 12 point deduction, Preston will finish ahead of Sheffield Wednesday of that there's no doubt, but he'll come up with some reason why he should not cough up that tenner. Colin Wynn And finally, I like to end my podcasts with a funny moving story. Do you have one or more to tell? David Bunting I think I've got a couple Colin in that respect. Humour is hmm, I was going to say humour is a funny thing, of course it is. Humour is a peculiar thing, and to the likes of my good friend, Gary Wheadon, he supports as you know, Brentford. Three or four years ago, Brentford beat Preston North End five nil down at Griffin Park. Now to Gary, that was a source of great amusement, beating Preston five nil. To me, it wasn't a source of amusement at all, it was a terrible occurrence. So humour is very much in the eye of the beholder. And one man's meat is another man's poison, as they say. So he often comes up with that particular story and we have wagers we have bets. And after each match on a Saturday, we're exchanging emails dependent on the result, one of us is happy. And the other one is sad unless it's a draw. David Bunting So story wise, I suppose it happens the same way. I mean, I have come across instances where people have been stuck in lifts. Now, to the person stuck in the lift is not a very amusing situation. To me outside the left, it is rather funny. So one's got to be very careful about humour. But I'll give you a couple of instances where I don't think would really cause offence, one business and one involving an individual. David Bunting In business. So one of my good customers is a company based in Cheshire called Northwest Securities. And they had finance houses opening all over the country. And to do that, they're contracted by services to take furniture down as they opened up a new office. And they did this in places all over the country. But this particular one was in Plymouth, which is a long way from Cheshire. So I got the inventory off the client as to what had to go down there, I picked up the furniture from his office, where he had a large warehouse and sort of a surplus furniture stock and we took furniture down that he had nominated and installed it in the Plymouth office. Now two or three years later, it wasn't quite working out and they were not making any money out of that facility. They therefore decided to close it. So I got the call off my contact. And said David, he said, I want you to go down and pull that furniture out of Plymouth because it's not working out. I said okay, Chris, I'll do that with pleasure. Would you like me to go down to the Plymouth office and check it out and make sure I put in the right size van? No, no, no, David, there's no point there's no need to do that. You know what van you used on the way down there's been no changes to the furniture. Just pick it up and bring it back. Okay, Chris, are you sure? Yeah, quite sure don't need to bother to go down. So it was all set up that way. I sent a van down there. Nine o'clock in the morning, I get a call from the driver. David, I can't fit the furniture on the van. Really, why not? Well, I don't know. He said, but I can't fit the furniture on the van. So I got back onto my customer. And I said, we can't fit the furniture on Chris. There's too much of it. What do you mean is too much of it. That's the fact, you better get on to your office manager and find out what's been going on? Well, to cut a long story short, what had been going on is quite simply this. When they've opened the office down there, the manager had also bought furniture locally, because the office was expanding, and he was taking on staff. So he bought furniture, desks, chairs, filing cabinets down there, but not bothered to tell his head office of what he'd done. So Chris, I said, we eventually found out I said, Well, I did offer to go down and check it out for you, Chris it's now going to cost you double what you paid because it's you know, it's another waggon infact it will cost you more than double because I need a bigger van to go down there and pick up the furniture and bring it all back. So that was a salutary lesson for a customer and so that so that Yeah, I found that amusing because I made some money out of it a lot. So that was good. David Bunting But on a personal one, you know Terry Fleetwood, lots of people know Terry Fleetwood, he's a character of that there is no doubt. The boss of Whittles got a group of people together, which included his directors, and that included me and a couple of friends to go on a golf tour to Ireland. Now these golf tours there were two of them actually. And this particular one I'm going to refer to evolved as the other one did as well, actually, the consumption of Guinness, the eating of some excellent food in Ireland and playing golf, in that order, probably. So the eight of us, there were eight of us involved, set off in cars from Preston, boarded the ferry, at Holyhead, went over to Dun Laoghaire. And embarked on the golf tour. Now the idea was at the end of the tour, we would repair back to Dun Laoghaire to a hotel there on the night, the last night that we were having in Ireland. And then we would board the ferry at about half past 9/10 o'clock the next morning to come back to Holyhead and then go home. David Bunting So we're back in the hotel on that last night. We've had a good meal outside of the hotel, we've come back to the hotel late on. There's a good bar in the hotel. Terry is there with his card tricks. Pretty good at card tricks is Terry. Colin Wynn Synonymous for his card tricks. David Bunting He finds himself an audience in the hotel. There's a party of Irish lads there who also have had a golf tour and they're coming back to the hotel. So Terry, sort of is flashing the cards to our group and the group of the Irish lads are looking what's going on. They become interested, so of course, Terry's rubbing his hands together. He's got some. He's got some other people to oppress here. So he leaves our group and he gets himself ensconced with the Irish lads and he's flashing the card tricks now. This is about midnight or just after midnight when this is getting underway. Right. I was off to bed. It was getting late and I knew we have to get up early in the morning to catch the boat. The other directors also did the same. So Terry was left on his own. Now, Terry was rooming with a guy called Tony Williams, who was the finance director. in the morning. Tony Williams is getting up he set the alarm for half past seven and he's getting up and he realises that Terry is not in the room. So as he's getting ready, the room door opens and in comes Terry. He's been in the bar all night with the Irish lads impressing them with his card tricks and he's just coming to bed at half past seven in the morning, and we're catching the ferry at half past nine. You can imagine. Colin Wynn David, that doesn't surprise me, it really doesn't surprise me because I've been to a conference before with Terry and we have stopped drinking as the attendees are coming for breakfast. It's Yeah, once you get involved with that guy, you lose all track of time. David Bunting Yeah, so Terry only has time for a quick wash and brush up. I don't think he even had breakfast in the hotel. Just had time to get down to get to the ferry and get on that sailing. He was very quiet on the boat going back, extremely quiet on the boat, but we never heard a peep out of him. So he got himself a sandwich or two on the boat. And that was it. What he said to his wife when he eventually got home and the longsuffering Karen and I do not know. Colin Wynn I'm surprised even got on the boat. David Bunting Well, we were surprised, but he just made it. So that's the amusing personal story. And that was amusing as well. But just typical of Terry. Yeah. Colin Wynn David, I sincerely thank you for your time today. It's been absolutely fantastic to be given this opportunity, one that I know our listeners will appreciate. Thank you once again for giving up your time today. Thank you so much. David Bunting My pleasure Colin, thank you for the invitation. Thank you for the opportunity to spout on at length and I really enjoyed talking with you. I've enjoyed the questions. I hope some people somewhere down the line get some benefit from it. Colin Wynn I'm sure they will. Thank you, David. I appreciate it. David Bunting Thank you, Colin. Thank you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai