Colin Wynn So Nigel, welcome to moving matters my new podcast How are you doing? Nigel Shaw I'm good Colin. I'm good. How are you mate? Colin Wynn I'm very well thank you very well very excited. Very excited. So can you tell everyone a little about yourself and the length of time in this wonderful industry? Nigel Shaw Well Colin, you know, the ups and downs of this industry and I've seen it all mate, I left school to become an engineer. And first of all thought to myself, was this the career that I really want so I did all the apprenticeship, everything else, loved it. And that was and then in 1982, I went to work in Holland. So I was over there for about a year and came back and then it all started with the removals. So we bought the first truck me and a partner and Paul Simpson and it had got a blown up engine Bedford TK is a normally was. Borrowed 300 pound off me mother And then rebuild the engine. And then they all started. So from the one truck, we bought another Bedford TK. All on the promise of doing one job to Oxford for a guy who we was repairing a roof for and looking back on it now, we had no idea about removals. And we found out that if we had of moved the guy who probably died in the meantime, it would have been in a position where we needed three trucks for the amount of stuff there was, but we just had loads of ambition, loads of character, and the job never happened. So we were stuck with two Bedford trucks. And it all went from there. So yeah, that's how I started in the industry. Me and Paul, we loved every minute of it. And we worked on the vans together when delivering three piece suites. And then Paul left to go work in Holland to do scaffolding. Colin Wynn But why, why, why when you came back from Holland, did you decide to go into the removal industry? Why Why all of a sudden, what made you decide well, I know what I'll go buy truck? Nigel Shaw Well, there lies the issue. I came back and we were repairing the roof. And the guy The doctor said to us, I'm moving to Oxford. And I said, we can do that. And he says, Well, I really like you just do it. I'm not gonna ask a price or anything. So we went out looking for the solution, which was a truck, which we did, we bought the truck rebuilt the engine, and the guy never moved. So we were stuck with two trucks. Because we bought another one in the meantime, we delivered three piece suites all over Scotland. We spent many hours underneath and repairing them because they always broke down. But yeah, it was a it was an unusual start. And then we were stuck with the trucks and then it was a case of let's market ourselves as Shaw & Simpson removals. That's how it all started. Paul Simpson who was my partner at the time, me and him was really, really good friends. But Paul decided that he wanted to go out scaffolding. And how the time has turned, he comes back and near enough runs the company for me now. Colin Wynn I was gonna say, everybody, everybody must know about Simo Nigel Shaw Simo's the character of this place. He's actually transformed it as well. I mean, Paul deals with all our commercial division and he will be the one who will benefit from this when I move out, he's got a passion for this, this business. And I was really pleased when he come back. We're starting to build a business then and he loves the job. He loves the people, and he's probably the next character in here. Colin Wynn So tell me about your current company. How did Specialised Movers come about? Nigel Shaw Well, the current company as Specialised Movers started when we was working for Pickfords. We started working for Pickfords as Shaw & Simpson. And Pickfords at the time was called the Careful Movers. So our vehicles were branded very close to the Pickfords vans, because we was working for a guy called Nigel Grice, who was the regional manager. And we expanded by buying four or five trucks without a more branded up as Specialised Movers. And we was given all the jobs that Pickfords weren't going to do, wouldn't do, couldn't do. And at that time, I had something like 25 guys working on Pickfords every day, somewhere somewhere in the country there was one of my guys working on a Pickfords van, doing all the work that Pickfords either couldn't do or wouldn't do. And then we built on that on the back with Nigel Grice. And it was Pickfords was been very successful at that time. We then diversified into working from Bullens doing all their commercial. And then yeah, it started to build from there. So the Specialised Movers brand really was, was born from the Pickfords, the Careful Movers because the amount of work we did was then seconded then to doing all the international work to Germany for the GFA, I had six drivers at any one time running Pickford trucks over to Germany. And answering the question, how did the Specialised Movers brand start then and where is the company now, from that we seen in the market that we wanted to give what Pickfords managers were selling but we wanted to deliver that. So we actually went to the market never took any Pickfords customers started marking it as marketing ourselves and doing the really high end type of stuff and the commercial and the brand just grew from strength to strength more on delivery than on the sales. And and now if you look at the company, we probably run 18 large trucks from two branches, probably seven, eight small vehicles, mini buses. We have a fleet of about well when I insure it with, when I insure it with Greg, I'm sure there's about 30 vehicles on there. So somewhere along the line, it's, it must be doing something right. Colin Wynn Going back to Pickfords, were you doing their commercial work, or we're you doing the domestic work, or we're doing both? Nigel Shaw Predominantly commercial. So what was happening with Pickfords, they had some really, really good salesmen, and then also got the Pickfords brand, which was absolutely outstanding. When the managers were going out selling the Pickfords brand we was in a position where we was being able to go in and actually say, well, we'll move that office or we'll do that X number of pounds Pickfords are putting the margins on. But we knew we got the skill set with the guys to be able to get these jobs done in good time and make a profit on the time we put save on the jobs. So yeah, we it was predominantly commercial, but the domestic market as well we were we was into that in a really big way. Colin Wynn And Specialised Movers at the moment are predominantly commercial? Nigel Shaw I would say probably 60% commercial, you're probably running at about 30% domestic and 10% International. Albeit the international is not something that we oversell, albeit we are kitted out with it, but the I just don't see the margins in the international moving being worth the amount of aggravation. I can find more pain on me own doorstep and going to Europe to find it. Colin Wynn So what challenges have you overcome? Nigel Shaw Well, there's been many challenges getting up to the, to where we are now. I mean, in 2004, we had a guy get killed on on site. And it was the biggest tragedy and probably the thing that would have changed all the company that hmm. We actually did a machine move and the information that we was given was wrong about weights, etc, etc. And he was a driver who started with us about three days before, we'd inducted him, we'd absolutely done everything. And what what actually happened is the machine fell off the forktruck and he went to try and save it. It was probably the worst day of my life that it was a situation where there's nothing that we could have done could have avoided the human reaction of moving to something that was falling but he did and I mean if anything money or whatever could have brought the guy back I would have started again from nothing and give him everything I've got but that was never gonna happen. But fortunately for us as a company taking that to one side the tragedy and the heartache of actually someone dieing in your service as a company we was taken to court on corporate manslaughter the initial charge but because we were members of the BAR we'd got absolutely everything in order the health and safety have to find something wrong and it was actually two charges. When it finally went to court, was a slight oil leak on the engine and not having emergency procedure where to land a helicopter if someone got injured. So we are all the risk assessments in place and so on. But the health and safety it took them three years to get this to court. And they had to find a couple of cases that they had to bring against someone when there's a fatality, that is just the format. We was the first and probably the only case to have a fatality actually heard in a Magistrate's Court. Normally it's just transferred straight into crown that probably sees the level of how, how much we had done to make sure was right and we'd got all these procedures in place. So we finished up coming out of that with a 9000 pound fine for the slight oil leak on the engine, which had nothing to do with the accident, but something had to happen. So from that day, it was either make or break from there at that stage we got our own truck with a crane on we probably run in about six trucks and I would have given up at that stage. But I managed to grow the strength, with Carole to come back from it and say, well, we'll make it from here, so we built it back from that, and probably use that as a milestone and thought to ourself, we need to move forward from this. But that's probably the biggest challenge I've ever had in my life. Colin Wynn And how has the pandemic challenge been for you? Nigel Shaw Do you know what? I have this belief with the pandemic that we've done everything right, we was closed down when we was recommended. We believed. I mean, we all went into the unknown with this. We believed at the time, if everyone had closed at the same time, the work would have been at the other end of the filter. So we did the right thing. And the comment I'm actually making to my customers we'll probably be remembered more for the work we didn't do in the pandemic. Because the customers we're moving now, are the people who are new customers, who are probably respecting what we did, the old customers are the past customers, they're not the people who I had all the aggravation with who was telling me at the time that you can't do this, you can't do that, you will turn up, we're going through court cases, and so on and so on. And he was like, I don't think you realise when in the unknown here, we really need to understand that this is more than just moving your furniture from A to B, it actually played with people's lives and, and so on. And I just couldn't, I just couldn't put my head around, going out and privately moving people or commercially, and the only work we did was for the NHS. And for any vulnerable people for the council contracts we have, people that would endanger or, and at that stage, we were in contract to the hospitals anyway. And my guys because of the situation volunteered to do that work. Colin Wynn So obviously a death in the business, if you could change anything from the past, I take it that would be one of those things that would be that the main thing that you would change but is that there anything else that you would change at all? Nigel Shaw Well, to be quite honest, Colin, you're exactly right if there was anything I could change I'd change that, but that is something that I have no control over. It was something that it only ever happens to one company in however many hundred that's going to be, unfortunately it was. If there was anything I was going to change around about the business and everything else, I probably wouldn't have bought so many trucks as what we run. Probably kept the staffing levels down and probably looked at more being profit focused, as opposed to doing the mass work, and then having lots of trucks and lots of people. Yeah, there has been challenges out there. But you know what, I don't regret other than the actual fatality I can actually say there is nothing that I regret in what I've done all the way through. I've met some fantastic people in this industry. And I've loved it. I've loved working on the vans, I've loved working with the office people I've loved the BAR. Yeah, I've really enjoyed it. So there's not a lot. I could honestly say I regret. Colin Wynn So what's your high points of being in this industry? I'm sure there are many, but you must have one that stands out? Nigel Shaw Well, that is many mate there is many, there is many high points. I mean, when we won the, the actual move in Qatar, I mean, that was something special the the contract was to move the Qatar national library which presented its challenges as you can imagine, you're going out into you're going out into an Arabic country. I personally backed off on that and I left it to the people who said they were going to do it. Rob and Paul went out there secured the job, at fantastic money. So the high point was really when they actually said Yeah, come out here and do this job. Probably 350,000 pound the contract we had it done in 16 weeks and the margin was very good. So I would say that was probably a very high point and and then on the back of that we followed it with moving the Royal Marine Engineers Museum, which was another major move that literally fell into the following year. So So yeah, they're two really good points. I enjoyed the removal so much so i have high points every day I walk into the place and and I look around at some of the staff and it does give me a high anyway. Colin Wynn So what advice would you give to a young Nigel just starting out in the industry having having been there for so long now and you've still got years ahead of you, I'm sure. But what advice would you give to somebody that's just starting out, apart from don't do it obviously :) Nigel Shaw Do you know what Colin. I think the advice is is listen to the people who's done it and been there. And these guys who I took the training from I mean your David Buntings of this world and your Nigel Grice and the Howard Whites, all these people were absolutely superb at what they did, they could sell the job, they knew how to make money, they knew the margins, and they wouldn't work for nothing. So the advice I would give is, it's not a quick return on cash this job, I personally have done very well out of it. But that's over a long career of time. And the other thing is, as well is I mean, obviously, an actual statement you once said to me many years ago and we took your software, you have to think about what you would do to save time to be doing something that can make you more money. And good software will do that. You actually put the software in place. Just for instance, I still speak to people who do storage, by sending them out individual by typing them out, they must spend three to four days. And all that changed overnight where you press a button and you storage invoice goes out, and so on and so on. But in that time, they were probably giving me time to go to the pub, not sat in front of the computer hand typing it, Mrs. Jones and Mrs. Smith has got three containers in knocking into a calculator. So I would always look at the advice, look at the look at the things that the other people have done to get to where they are. And listen, and I know that a lot of people will try and when their own tangent, you think to yourself, Well, I know better I want to buy that and I want to do this. But yeah, I mean, I would honestly say take take the experience from the other people and really really well engross that experience, because there's a lot of people out there probably like myself who would love to share some of the things that we've done and, and see other people come on. I mean, we're all out there. We're all in a competitive business, but I don't see the next person to me as a competitor. I just I just see them as another person doing the removals. Colin Wynn Would you also recommend that they go and get all of the accreditations that were not necessarily all of them, but you as a company, Specialised Movers have an awful lot of accreditations these days. Do they matter? Will they get you business? Nigel Shaw Yes. If I was to tell you the reason why. When you are actually tendering for jobs now, you will find a lot of people or a lot of the companies, your incumbent, and you need to be there and the person buying needs you there. So the criteria that they're set out at that time probably does need some of the things in the quality standards. Let's say for instance, if you're working for a telecoms kind of company, they would want to have want you to have 27001 Secure Transfer of Data, etc, etc. And it can be a pass or fail on a tender document. So we decided to go out and we actually got 11 quality standards, we're proud of it. It actually makes the company better. we adhere to it. And, and once again, one of the other very nice people, very good people I've known for many, many years. Peter Gawthrop, who's our inspector and he's very thorough what he's actually doing his job, the friendship goes through the window, he has a job to do. But you know what another statement he made. The quality standards are there to make a company better same as having a good software and if you follow the procedures in the quality standards, you've got a better company out of it. It's not just a case of ticking boxes. It's making your company better. Colin Wynn Yeah, yeah. So, five years down the line Nigel. Well, where do you see yourself in five years? Where do you see Specialised Movers? Nigel Shaw Well, I've probably only got about another year, 18 months at the most, that I'll be in the company in the same role or the active part that I am. I am looking now, I always promised when I was the CMG Chairman, which is a six year term, really the two years leading two years Chairman and two years lead out, which is coming up in May next year. That that I'm past Chairman, I finished that in May next year. And I always promised that see that out that I see myself probably coming in a couple of days a week. We're in a fortunate position that we own the property as well. So we're actually the landlords of the limited company which makes us in a pretty good position personally. So my belief is I couldn't have got to where I am without stuff that I've got wrapped around me. And those staff will be looked after in what we're going to do going forward. I'd still be around, I'll still be able to go to conferences and I'll still be there. But the next five years I will probably, I'm pretty sure I'll be out of it. Colin Wynn So as you said, you're past CMG Chairman, how did you get involved with that? What What made you decide to go for chairman of the CMG, what did you do with it you know, did you enjoy your time there? Nigel Shaw Absolutely loved it. absolutely loved every minute of it. If I was to honestly say, David Bunting in 97 was the one who came and asked me to join the CMG, and the BAR together. We joined them both together. We always was looking at the BAR being a goal to far, we never thought we'd just get in, we would get in there. We actually achieved all the criteria and we was in. And once we was in I was working for David Bunting while he was at Whittles and we were supplying him with staff, etc. And I got to know David as more or less my mentor, he is the guy that I look up to and think to myself, he's the guy who got me on this ladder. So he was the chairman at the time of the CMG in year one in 97, I actually joined the Council of the CMG with Brian Maidman. And in that time, obviously, I've seen many people in BAR but me and Brian stuck it out. Brian Maidman and myself and we really enjoyed it. We had a lot of construction into the CMG. I work, I worked with Brian on getting the 8522 together. And we obviously went through a lot of the challenges at the time in 2008 through all the financial crash and so on. So I was actually a counsellor for about 17 years on the CMG, voted in every two years, and probably gained a lot of the backroom knowledge to it, as there was more and more people passing through the CMG. You know, people join the CMG Council for the year, two years, three years, and then move on. Then another counsellor come on, but me and Brian said that all the time, and it was a good foundation to understand the CMG, the politics and everything else around it, the finances to it. I was made the treasurer of the CMG, probably about 2004/2005 so really I understood everything that was going off. But the when I actually became the chairman, we was which was obviously in 2016 and 2017, I absolutely loved it. I really, really enjoyed it because I've got the foundation of everything about the CMG, having all that time in there, I understand. I understood where it needed to go. I understood what the what the membership, thought about the CMG, which to be honest, is very little, and I tried to change a lot of that. We put in my chairmanship we put in place the UCAS accreditation for BS8522. We changed the commercial mover of the year competition. There was many things that you do that probably don't hit the headlines, that came to the front. We just had a best practice in moving guide made, which has had to be edited with COVID-19 and the different practices towards that, etc. So, yeah, I really, really enjoyed being the chairman. And when I finished being the chairman and handed it over to Steve Webber, I was given the past chairman's medal. And I'm so proud to wear that whenever I go to a conference or anywhere I have to go into the public eye. It's really nice to have been the chairman of CMG. And to be honest, he was probably a long term passion that I really wanted to do it at some stage, but I was always happy to be in the background at the time. Colin Wynn So the CMG to be a member of the CMG, you have to be a member of BAR, so I take it, did you join BAR to become CMG or did you join BAR first for the domestic side and then get involved in the CMG? Nigel Shaw Well, really, it was like a bit of a fast track, but it had to go in that kind of an order, me ultimate goal was the CMG, because we was big into working for Whittles, Pickfords, Harrow Green at the time and many other major corporates. But what we actually did is, there was more or less saying to you, you need to be a BAR member. So, we applied to be BAR members, we ticked all the boxes for that. And on the back of that was getting the CMG membership, which was you need to be the BAR member, first get CMG member on the back of that, which was just another add on. So, yeah, it went very well. So, yeah, we was we was a BAR member for probably about six months, three to six months in and went straight into the CMG. Colin Wynn I probably know the answer to this question already. But any removal company out there that just starting up or isn't part of an association, do you recommend the BAR because I most certainly do? Nigel Shaw Absolutely, absolutely. I have many conversations with the people. And there is a lot of people out there who are capable of being BAR members. And the thing is, is you become bean counters worrying about how much it is going to cost and etc, etc. And what's the return on investment but to be quite honest, you can never ever put a value on whether it worked or not the only thing I can say it's been a massive help to us, and I cannot put a price on it. But I took the company from borrowing 300 pounds from the mother in 87. So I'm sorry about 82 up to the nearly 3 million pound company now. So I'm pretty sure that BAR and the CMG have been a big help to get me out there. And the friends I've met through the BAR. So the answer to your question is that BAR has been very important to us. And I would honestly say to anyone, anyone who can make them standards, join it, the money's not the issue to it. Colin Wynn You are a winner of the CMotY back in 2012, and you are pretty much year on year in the finalists, the final three when you're going to win it again? Nigel Shaw Do you know, it's been an absolute curse knowing David Bunting. There was many people used to think to me, it must be it must know David Bunting is going to win it every year. And we're I think we one of probably only two companies that have entered it every year since we first started. So, so knowing Dave Bunting might have been the curse. But I can honestly say that he's no one like David Bunting, he actually is so thorough. And he actually goes into a zone with that term with that judging. And unfortunately, in the next Well, I think it's after next year, he's stepping down as the lead judge. When am I going to win it again? Probably when he's gone! He has been an absolute star. The competition is absolutely transparent. I would encourage absolutely anyone who was in the CMG to enter it, the marketing in 2012, for us was phenomenal. We, we did everything we branded it to the hilt, we still brand 2012 as now and in 2009, in Brussels, we actually won the category of commercial mover of the year but we didn't win the overall category that Ede's one. But we actually got commercial mover of the year for the major awards, and me and Bill Tiernan often laugh and joke about that, but But yeah, it means a lot to us. I mean, you walk into our office, we've got an award of merits right through the office. And we've got a bigger trophy cabinet than West Ham. Yeah. Winning it was was a massive achievement and it's on my goal to win every year. I mean, we was finalist last year, finalist the year before. And we always just miss it on that last little bit. And we look at what we get wrong because you analyse your results when he comes through. And it's so find that everything is on fine margins right at the top. But I've never ever been ruffled or thought to myself, you should have won that shouldn't have won now, because I actually know the competition how, how tight it is, and how hard people, and how much effort people put into winning. Colin Wynn Winning it is a pinnacle, of course, but being a finalist that, you know, that's pretty damn good. Let's face it, to be in final three, but you're in the final three year on year, so you can't be that far off winning it again. Nigel Shaw I love it. Colin Wynn Two more questions for you if you don't mind? Nigel Shaw Yes. Colin Wynn So what do you do outside of this industry? What does Nigel and Carole do? Obviously Carole's not here but what does Nigel and Carole do outside of this industry just to chill out? Nigel Shaw Well, five years ago, I got a shotgun licence. Never ever thought I would get one but I did. And I started going shooting Clay Pigeon shooting, actually, I'm not into killing things. But I go with some off duty police well not off duty policemen sorry, retired policeman. And we travel around all over but we make a day of it. We go out shooting in the morning, pub in the afternoon. We're that drunk Carole has to come and pick us up and take us home. And then Carole decided she fancied some of that so we started going on Saturdays as well. So I was doing that five years ago and probably do till about a year ago and then obviously the lockdown and so on we haven't done it. But the worst thing is now is the passion well not the passion I've got for it, unwittingly I've got a collection of cars which I really really need to start doing something with, I'm struggling for room on me drive. But But yeah, I mean I love cars, I love the I love all the different types of cars I love old cars, classic cars, obviously we've got the two vintage vehicles that we take to shows, and I think this next couple years we will be taking the vehicles to the shows more often. I have a Range Rover Holland & Holland which there was only 100 made, and Carole brought me a Bentley for Christmas, so, what more can I say? Colin Wynn She's a keeper :) And I do believe you have a wonderful pond that you're going to be fishing from at some point? Nigel Shaw This sounds daft this Colin I have got an half acre pond, well it's a lake in with another acre of land and we just had this brand new house built, it's absolutely stunning, and we're only 200 yards off the sea but its one of these things, I think the fish are the pets, so I don't want to catch them, and I love fishing but I go fishing somewhere else. So I've got a lake full of fish that I don't catch because I think they're me own probably know them all by name. Over the last two years we've had the new house built over the last month they've been digging the lake out so it's about 10 foot deep now and it's really really got a lot of big fish in it. So yeah, it might get my fishing tackle in it but I don't want to catch the fish. Colin Wynn And to end Nigel, and I appreciate your time with this, to end, do you have any funny story from the removal industry? I don't care if it's rude or whatever, it can be however you want, we can we can put warnings beforehand Nigel Shaw The funniest thing I ever look back on, my time with Pickfords. Pickford in its time was the outstanding company, before all the health and safety and the different caveats that you have to abide by and so on. And the managers who run the branches was all about making money. It was purely that we've got to get the best out of these guys. Well, these guys all went to the pub, and the pubs in them days used to open it's 11 o'clock, close at three o'clock, open back up at five o'clock, and the whole industry revolved around them drinking times. We'd have a truck come in from Edinburgh, and arrive at Pickfords depo in Sheffield at eight o'clock in the morning. And our challenge was to get done and get in the pub for a drink at dinnertime, and then another waggon would come in at two o'clock, that was the afternoon assistance, and we'd go and unload that. And then the challenge was to get back to the pub again for as near to half five as you could, so I loved that side of it. But just going back to the Pickfords one, one of the funniest ones we ever did, and I'll never forget it was a big mansion. And there was this old spinster in this big mansion, and her pride was the cat. And this cat was a tortoise shell cat and I was on it with a guy called Alan Warship good friend of mine he's retired now and Bill Cowly from Sheffield. We went into the house and the woman named as a coffee she said, The cat's a little bit poorly and I'm seeing it's last days out, the cat will probably get all the money as well I'll be giving it to the cats home and everything. And Alan walked into the house and tread on the cat, and killed it, so so the cat had got a tumour on his brain and he was dead on the floor. And we were all stood around looking at this dead cat while the woman was in the other room. So we said what we going to do with it, so we all decided we'll take it upstairs and put it between two boxes. So we stood the dead cat up between these two big boxes at the top of the stairs. And the woman came seeing the cat upstairs, but it were dead, she thought he was alive. And then we brought it to the bottom of the stairs and told her it fell down stairs. And the woman come in, she were distraught says, well, it's probably had a good ending and everything else, and it had got a brain tumour and so on. So I don't know whether we did it a favour or whatever. And we still got a tip for the job anyway. I can still remember to this day, looking at the cat between the two boxes from the bottom of the stairs, and the woman thought it was still alive, but I have so many stories I could tell you, some of the times I walk into my yard with some of the guys and I laugh so much at some of the things they do and they do some of the more as you know in removals they do some of the most stupid things that you think you think to yourself he's done that on purpose and they genuinely haven't they've, they've done it because that's just how they are. But they do a fantastic job. And I don't know how they manage to do it. Colin Wynn They do a wonderful job. It's it's the most amazing industry it's full of family run businesses. Yeah, the men themselves, people don't realise there's more to it than than humping and dumping furniture as I like to say that they're playing human Tetris with boxes, they are going to stack your things, they're going to take care of it. People just don't realise it. And I think the general public needs to realise that they need to start paying more for their removals than they do for their that 65 inch flat screen TVs that they don't want to pay anybody to move. It's ridiculous, the guys are just brilliant. They all need a medal they all need nothing but a medal. Nigel Shaw I mean I had a classic last week, we got claim in, an 84 inch TV, the customer wrapped in bubble wrap, the guy put it on the van tied it and absolutely fit perfect, took it off the van and then they put a claim in that the screen was completely shattered, and the claim was 300 pounds. And the television was on the wall. I don't know what they've done, and why would you hang it if it were broke? So I think that was for Greg. Colin Wynn You heard it here first Greg! Nigel Shaw Some of the some of the things and you're right in what you're saying people just don't understand. I mean, one of the going back to the COVID-19, we went into it in a big way. We respect that people need to be in a safe workspace. And the customers need to be spaced into a safe space. We, and it's not financially, we're fogging houses that we move them into, not for the money for the peace of the mind that the guys are going in there, and we're not wanting to get that disease and the customer who's moving in there. And you can actually say whether it's financial or whatever it is, but at the end of the day, I can go home at night and think to myself I've done something or I've tried to do something to try and cut the chances of someone moving into a house that they've had the disease in it. And I don't want to put my guys in that position. And yeah, it's, it's, it's been it's been a tough three months, we've come back to a busy period, I don't know what's around the corner, we're probably more fortunate than most companies in the work we do. We diversify into machine moving, craning stuff in and out, especially stuff, and when you look at some of the margins, just as you said, the customers need to realise they need to be paying the right price for that kind of experience, and that kind of service that they're getting from removal industries. Colin Wynn Still it just blows my mind, even to this day that people don't want to spend as much money. Yet, you're moving their worldly possessions. Yet, people have got 20, 30, 40,000 pounds plus worth of goods in their house yet they don't want to spend more than 300 quid to move it. It doesn't make sense. Nigel Shaw Something's Colin Wynn Does not make sense. Nigel Shaw Something's changed in this since the COVID situation. We're we're appearing to win most of the work that we see. And I don't know for what reason that is an it's not price driven. Other people might say that's a different scenario in their area. And I'm only speaking from experience in specialised movers that my salesmen are coming in, and they're hitting figures or something like 65% conversion rates. And they're not dropping prices to get that. And we don't seem to be fighting against other companies. Just a quick classic before we go theres a council house, rough council house in Sheffield. Paul went out to see it last week and he gave the customer my card because it was that bad. And there was that much furniture in it. It was solid and Paul was out doing another call and I phoned him up and he went, we don't want that job. Hey says there is two and a half thousand foot in a three bedroom semi detached house, says he must have just walked towards the door and packed it. There was an old ambulance on the drive 1950s we've got transporters for things like that, but but I said well what you want me to do he said we don't want it tell them 2000 pounds, and I costed it into the system, and it come out at three and a half thousand pound plus plus, he got five quotes. And he says everybody else's quote was just ridiculously cheap. And he went with it. Now we got the problem of delivering it. But that's how it goes. Colin Wynn Brilliant. Well, Nigel, I appreciate your time. I really, really do. And I look forward to seeing you at some point either in your offices. Or we'll have a beer at a BAR conference at some point, I'm sure. Nigel Shaw that's fantastic. Colin Wynn Thank you very much for your time I appreciate it. Nigel Shaw And thank you very much. Good luck with everything. Thank you Colin. Bye. Colin Wynn Definitely bye for now. Transcribed by https://otter.ai