Episode 4-04_Affirmative Action_Everything's Political
[00:00:00] Ashlee Gahart: No, I don't think that it has anything to do with lowering standards. I feel like some other people who do not like affirmative action might say that. But it's a way to level the playing field when it comes to college admissions because historically people of color and women have not been able to have equitable access to quality education.
[00:00:30] Junius Williams: Hi, I'm Junius Williams, your host on Everything's Political. If everything's political, then what do young people think? Now, you've been hearing from Francesca Larson and me, my co host, for some time now, and you've seen some of our guests and heard some of our guests. This term, we are focusing on young people because we want to know what they think about some of the political issues.
[00:01:01] Junius Williams: That are affecting them as well as us. So this one we're going to talk about is Affirmative Action. I'm just going to start off here with a little bit by first asking them to introduce themselves and tell us where they're from and what they do. 
[00:01:19] Malachi Gwyn: All right. Hi, my name is Malachi Gwynn. I am a 12th grade cinematography major.
[00:01:25] Malachi Gwyn: I attend Arts High School here in Newark. I'm also from Newark and I'm the Newark Board of Education student representative. 
[00:01:32] Ashlee Gahart: Hello, I'm Ashlee Gahart. I also go to Arts High School. I'm a vocal major and I'm the senior class president. 
[00:01:40] Junius Williams: Royalty. Very, very impressive credentials that you have at a very good school.
[00:01:48] Junius Williams: Well, I like arts because at one point, I thought about being a musician, but my parents said, no, don't do that. Don't do that. And so I had to go to law school and then come back and pick up the music. But that's another story. That's my story, not yours. And so we're going to start our conversation by looking at a decision by the United States Supreme Court, June 29th, 2023.
[00:02:16] Junius Williams: There was a long awaited decision addressing the legality of race conscious affirmative action in college admission programs. And this was the case Students for Fair Admissions versus President and Fellows of Harvard College and the University of North Carolina. Now in that case, and I don't expect you to play lawyer on this, but in that case, they said race could no longer be used in any fashion.
[00:02:51] Junius Williams: To justify admitting people into college. This could not be a consideration for the admission of people into college. So what do you think about that? 
[00:03:05] Ashlee Gahart: So I think that it is a way to combat the, like the systemic issues that have faced people in this nation. But I think that the approach that some colleges may have taken may have made it less about equity and more about meeting certain criteria and not including everyone or that's how it seems to some people.
[00:03:33] Ashlee Gahart: But in my opinion, I think that Affirmative Action has worked pretty well. Obviously, it has its cons, as most things do, but this isn't a perfect world. So, in my opinion, I think that Affirmative Action is a good thing, mostly. And I was upset to hear that they had overturned that, because now it leaves lots of people at a disadvantage when it comes to, uh, Having access to quality education.
[00:04:06] Malachi Gwyn: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I agree with Ashley. I think that we have come to a turn where it leaves a vacancy to a point where, you know, our race, it did provide wonders and it did a great job ensuring that those who aren't at the same level of advantage that others might be placed that given, you know, their race or their, their ethnic background and provided some clarity that, okay, it's understood.
[00:04:35] Malachi Gwyn: Good. That there are certain, certain levels of opportunities that may not be equivalent to other students. So I feel it leveled the playing ground. Of course, those who are already at a higher standard feel like it was unfair. And it is unfair to a certain extent. Like she said, there are their pros and we have their cons.
[00:05:00] Malachi Gwyn: Ultimately, I feel it was very effective. And it's unfortunate that, you know, we don't live in a perfect world. where we can easily rectify such a big issue like college admission. I mean, it goes farther than that, but that's what we're here to talk about today. So, I think it was, it's very effective. However, like many things, they can all improve, so.
[00:05:23] Malachi Gwyn: Yeah. 
[00:05:23] Junius Williams: Well, both of you seem to imply, and I'm going to cross examine you on this. Both of you seem to imply that there is a different set of standards used based upon race, ethnicity, as opposed to something that seems to be ingrained within all of us that all the rest of the students who get in there are operating on certain standards that are not being met by black and brown people.
[00:05:59] Junius Williams: Is that your assumption? 
[00:06:02] Malachi Gwyn: Are you asking me, is it, is it my assumption that black and brown people are? Is it expected to perform less than other races? 
[00:06:11] Junius Williams: Just to get in. I'm not talking about once you get there. I'm talking about, is the basis on affirmative action, is that based upon the fact that we lower the standards in order to get black and brown people?
[00:06:25] Junius Williams: Or are we looking at another way of judging whether you're competent and qualified to get in? 
[00:06:31] Ashlee Gahart: No, I don't think that it has anything to do with lowering standards. I feel like some other people who do not like affirmative action might say that. But it's a way to, you know, level the playing field when it comes to college admissions because historically people of color and women have not been able to have equal and equitable access to quality education.
[00:06:58] Ashlee Gahart: I mean, Women couldn't even, they couldn't vote until the 1920s and, you know, black people had to deal with Jim Crow all throughout the 20th century. So I think having affirmative action helped create more ways for people to have that access to education. So I don't think it has anything to do with lowering the standards, but rather increasing the opportunities that minorities have to get the education that they deserve in this country.
[00:07:32] Malachi Gwyn: Yeah. And to add on to what Ashley was saying, I also feel that, you know, it's not, it's not necessarily in terms of, oh, we're, we're lowering our expectations, but more so. It's not a biased judgment, just making a proper judgment. I feel like everybody individually should be judged differently upon that individual.
[00:07:57] Malachi Gwyn: However, I mean, it's college admissions. How many college applications do college admissions officers have to go through? They can't take each individual for who they are, but rather what race they are, the questions that they ask. So I feel that in terms of the race, question. They have to make the proper judgment and there are different judgments about each race and it's always going to be like that.
[00:08:18] Malachi Gwyn: I feel that each of us have our own, you know, judgment of races and we all can't live in a world that's just race blind. So it's difficult. It's not necessarily, Oh, I'm going to judge you in a poor way. There's always positive light to be shown throughout each different race. 
[00:08:38] Junius Williams: Well, let's pursue that a little bit, because I'm a little confused about what you said.
[00:08:47] Junius Williams: She was clear, but I was a little confused about what you were saying, making a judgment about the race. Are we saying that affirmative action is a way to overcome discrimination? to get people in. I think we agree on that. But the methodology is to do what when you come to a black applicant? 
[00:09:11] Malachi Gwyn: That's a great question.
[00:09:13] Malachi Gwyn: Okay, well, since we're focusing on black and brown students, when it comes to black and brown students looking at that applicant unfortunately it seems that, you know, there's not necessarily an, an exception, but more of an understanding. So, understanding that yes, this person's, you know, external factors, their GPA, their test scores, may not be the equivalent of someone of another race.
[00:09:41] Malachi Gwyn: But understanding that there's a possibility that this person's circumstances are completely different from another person's circumstances, given their race. So, not necessarily making an exception, but an understanding. Thank you. 
[00:09:56] Junius Williams: If I'm an athlete and I'm applying to Harvard, it's okay based in the Supreme Court case for me to get a point in my favor in going to Harvard. Maybe my test scores weren't that high, but I'm an athlete, so I get a check mark. If I am a son or the daughter of someone who went to Harvard, I get a checkmark in my favor. Legacy. So, how come you can't look at disadvantaged folks and say you get a checkmark because of X, Y, and Z in your favor, in your application process?
[00:10:55] Malachi Gwyn: Can you clarify a little bit, Mr. Williams, on Mm hmm. 
[00:10:58] Junius Williams: Well, it's, it's about the, the, the additional privilege you get for going through a certain portal Mm hmm. because of your standing based on who you are. If you're an athlete Right. Here's the point. Mm hmm. It's a point. If you are the son or daughter of someone who went to Harvard, you get a point.
[00:11:20] Junius Williams: Right. It used to be Because you are from a perceived disadvantage because of your race, you get a checkmark. Now the Supreme Court is saying you can't get that. So what do you think? 
[00:11:35] Malachi Gwyn: This goes back to, you know, the pros and the cons. And it sucks that, you know, I feel the athlete point has been It's, it's constant and our athletes are continuously getting scholarships, especially in our school.
[00:11:50] Malachi Gwyn: People are getting signed and we'll have signed celebrations, but I feel like now it's being not necessarily ignored, but not on the same level in, in terms of, okay, you get this point. I feel like, It, it, it, it's beneficial to those of the background that do get a point, but unfair to those, the background that don't.
[00:12:16] Malachi Gwyn: So what I'm wondering is just because of the history of our, like black and brown students. Does that not make it an equivalent for the history of other races to not get that point as well? What dictates, you know, the point leverage or the advantage that the races get in terms of their admissions process?
[00:12:42] Junius Williams: Well, that's a good question. I can see you are kind of on the cusp on that one. Here's an article. It comes from the New York Times, 18 years too late to solve the SAT gap. An SAT score of 1300 or higher can open a path to America's top public and private colleges. But new data shows that just a sliver of the country's poorest students reach that level.
[00:13:16] Junius Williams: Now, why is that? Why shouldn't? People who have been come, coming from another corridor, so to speak. Why shouldn't their lifestyle be taken into consideration if there's other ways you can show that they're qualified? What do you think? Could you rephrase that? Okay. If I come from, if I'm black, Mm hmm. And I'm, Middle class as opposed to white and rich, there's certain advantages that being white and rich has in the education versus what I get as black and middle class.
[00:14:04] Junius Williams: Now if you accept that and the studies have shown that the SAT test is definitely a function of some of the things you get by being white and middle and upper class, white and rich I should say. then why shouldn't that be taken into consideration when you judge the aptitude Of a student who doesn't have those advantages.
[00:14:27] Ashlee Gahart: I think it should be taken into consideration because systemically black and brown people have been put in Situations where they don't have access to quality education early on So they're not able to study and prepare adequately For tests such as the sat and the act so they might not score as high and understanding that Rich white people tend to have that kind of stability to be able to access that kind of education to be able to score well should be taken into consideration when looking at scores, because that doesn't mean that someone of from a low income black and brown neighborhood is not as intelligent.
[00:15:14] Ashlee Gahart: They just. were left out of having those kinds of opportunities. And that's a systemic issue that needs to be resolved within our society so that they have a more equal opportunity to be able to get to where white people are, rich white people are in education. 
[00:15:36] Francesca Larson: I know we've been talking kind of high level here and as if none of this impacts the folks directly in the room, it's, we've been talking about people and groups of people and we haven't been saying I a whole lot, but I can't possibly have this conversation about affirmative action with two folks who were right about to apply to college when this decision came down without asking.
[00:16:06] Francesca Larson: What did it feel like to start your college application process with this decision about Affirmative Action looming in front of you? Did it change the way that you were applying? Did it change the calculus you were doing or add stress about whether you thought you might get into a school or not? What did it feel like?
[00:16:28] Francesca Larson: Did it, were there conversations with other students, with your families? I'd love to hear about that.
[00:16:34] Ashlee Gahart: I mean, yeah, we were both in AP U. S. History last year, and that was a discussion that we had right before the school year had ended. We had talked about, you know, what we thought the justices would rule on, and what our thoughts were with affirmative action.
[00:16:53] Ashlee Gahart: And for me, at the time, I wasn't really looking at colleges because college had always been something I stressful in my mind because of my financial situation. I just didn't think I was worthy enough because I didn't have the qualifications that some of the colleges that I wanted to get into would see.
[00:17:16] Ashlee Gahart: So I was discouraged by college completely. So I wasn't really terribly concerned with how affirmative action would affect my college experience. I still I don't know how to feel about it because it's kind of in my face now and it's like hard to process like how to, how do I approach that, you know, and I want to be able to get into these colleges like and do well, but is my gender going to impact how I, you know, I am seen by colleges.
[00:17:52] Ashlee Gahart: Is where I live going to impact how I'm seen by these colleges? Are they going to not take that into consideration anymore? Is being queer going to impact how they see me? Are they going to choose someone else over me? Or, you know, like, it's definitely Something that I, I guess I just, it's hard to like process really, especially at such a important and detrimental time in my life.
[00:18:25] Ashlee Gahart: It's, I mean, very Stressful. 
[00:18:30] Malachi Gwyn: Yeah. It's like, now is, right now in our lives is one of the most pivotal changes that I feel like we'll go through. Because there is so many routes that we can take. And not only through the college admissions process, but affirmative action alone can, you know, steer you away from the fear of not being accepted and lowering our standards.
[00:18:55] Malachi Gwyn: I mean, given we've been afforded the privilege of being able to, you know, keep an upkeep on our grades and our GPA and our stan and our, our standpoint in terms of where we fall on the spectrum of, you know, the typical college applicants. But it makes me think about those who aren't afforded the same privilege of, you know, coming from a background where, you know, grades are important.
[00:19:20] Malachi Gwyn: Students have different circumstances. So it didn't necessarily change my perspective, but opened up my mind to realize that the students that I'm in class with May, it can affect them because not all of us are in the same boat of, okay, I have a high GPA, I have good SAT scores, I know myself, I know what I want to do with my life, so I know exactly where I'm going to go, this is my plan, this is how I'm going to get it done.
[00:19:51] Malachi Gwyn: Whether it's a thing or not, but for those who are, you know, at a disadvantage, that they might not even be in control of, sucks. This system is not set up for you to, to get the same opportunity, but it also made me realize too, and I wanted to highlight this before, you know, we got into the eye that what about those races and those students who unfortunately didn't get, you know, the same opportunity that they were expected to receive the same education they were expected to receive.
[00:20:25] Malachi Gwyn: So, for example, if there was an Asian student just So to put this in the perspective of the actual case to where they, they're in the same classroom as us in Newark with, you know, a high percentage of, of black and African American students. Why should we be, not, not to say that we don't deserve or we haven't earned the plus when it was in, in place, but what about the student, you know, that, that
[00:20:58] Junius Williams: Well, you're getting at something that the study addresses. Starting very early, children from rich and poor families receive vastly different educations in and out of schools, in and out of schools, driven by differences in the amount of money and the time their parents are able to invest. Right. So all of those things are kind of what you're suggesting need to be taken into consideration.
[00:21:28] Junius Williams: Mm hmm. With this ruling, however, it wipes out one of those factors that had been utilized before. Well, what race is the person begin, but, but, but that, what that decision early on said is we can no longer even look at that as a possible index for what those people went through. Yeah. You see. Now when I was coming up, well it was a little before I was coming up, a little after I was coming up, there was a case called Bakke, the Bakke case, are you familiar with the Bakke case?
[00:22:02] Junius Williams: Yes. B A K K E, the Bakke case. The Bakke case said you can use race as a factor. Before that, there was a time after the Civil Rights Movement from let's say 1960s, you It's the late 1960s on up through the 1980s when you could, uh, say we want a quota of black people. We want a quota of Latinos, we want a quota of women, whatever it is.
[00:22:27] Junius Williams: And by the way, women got off much better in this case than black people did because they didn't say you can't look at women and say, hey, we want so many women in the class. But the Bakke case said you can use race as a factor. And that was very important. When I was president of the National Bar Association, that's the organization of black lawyers, we went all over the country, explaining the Bakke case to students like you, maybe a little older ones in college, the ones in law school.
[00:23:00] Junius Williams: It's okay. You don't have to feel bad about yourself. Because this was one of the things that they considered. If you look at the sentence again, um, Very early, rich white people have an opportunity that you don't have because of what the money can buy. Let's look at some of the things that money can buy.
[00:23:26] Junius Williams: The more funding the school gets, the better students do. Students in Newark don't get the same funding as students in Montclair. Let's see. They did at one time when there was a Bakke case, I'm sorry, when we had the Abbott case, but we don't have time to go through that. There is, uh, it says one of the things that happens is that poor families have more stresses like food insecurity, frequent moves, I know people have moved two, three times, that have been shown to have long term effects on children's academic performance.
[00:24:09] Junius Williams: That doesn't mean they're dumb. Just means that you're looking at trying to eat every day, and you can't get ahead with your work. What do you think about those kinds of factors? 
[00:24:22] Ashlee Gahart: I think they're important to consider because that's the kind of situation that I'm in. I live in a low income neighborhood.
[00:24:30] Ashlee Gahart: My parents are immigrants. They don't make as much money as they should. We don't have, I don't have the kind of support from my family to get the kind of education that I want. I have to deal with, Paying for my own transportation, my own food, which means I have to work my own job and take care of myself, which doesn't leave me with much time for extracurriculars, which is unfortunate for me because I love to be involved, not just after school, but like, not just with the school after school, but like on the weekends and with in my community, and I am unable to do that.
[00:25:16] Ashlee Gahart: Because I have to worry about, you know, what am I going to eat for dinner tonight? How am I, am I, are my parents cooking? Do they not have the money for food? Do I have to babysit my siblings? You know, we only have one car, two people drive in the house and they both work. So, you know, what's the, how am I going to navigate that on top of maintaining my grades?
[00:25:41] Ashlee Gahart: Most of my friends. their own jobs. They barely make as much as I do, and that is not a lot. I know one friend. She's moved out completely. She can't live with her family at home. She works her own job, pays her own rent, her own bills. She Can't come to school every day because she has to maintain her home life or else she'd be homeless and that puts her at a disadvantage when it comes to college and the admissions process because They don't get to see what you've done or the kind of person you are, you know, what your potential is, because your, your resume doesn't have that full list of activities and extracurriculars and internships and programs that other richer people have.
[00:26:32] Ashlee Gahart: I haven't been able to get into internship programs or other opportunities that I wanted to be in. Participate in because I didn't have that kind of experience that other people from wealthier neighborhoods Had were able to get because they would have the support from their families. They would have financial support proper education To be able to do what they wanted to do 
[00:26:57] Malachi Gwyn: Yeah, when you mentioned made mention of you know, those circumstances being of wealthy families It's not even just the wealthy families either, because I feel like you and I, specifically, we come from two completely different backgrounds.
[00:27:12] Malachi Gwyn: And I just realized that. That you know, it doesn't even have to be the wealthy that have the supportive parents. I've been afforded, you know, I was telling Ashley this, I've been afforded the the opportunity to speak and have a voice at the table with my parents. To communicate and they've given me their full support with everything that I do and being able to speak on the board Focusing on my career.
[00:27:39] Malachi Gwyn: They've been completely supportive not leaning me against music. I make music as well So not leaning me against, you know I don't do that or mmm put that to the side and focus on school But allowing me to to broaden my horizon now see there's an issue with that That, you know, you can either be at a disadvantage because your circumstances are too overwhelming, because you're not able to, you know, gain the resources to come to school every day.
[00:28:05] Malachi Gwyn: Truly educate yourself and make sure that you set yourself up for success, or overachieving and burning yourself out and ultimately hurting yourself in a way that you didn't think you could. Because you were trying to strive for greatness and, you know, reach the expectations of the people that are around you so much that it'll affect your process.
[00:28:29] Malachi Gwyn: And I wish that all of this could be taken into consideration when it comes down to college admission. And I say all of that because at the end of the day, whether we like it or not, there's no way for them to dictate whether or not we're telling the truth. 
[00:28:46] Francesca Larson: We, we've been talking a lot this season about fairness.
[00:28:50] Francesca Larson: And I think what I've been hearing in this conversation, too, is that when we removed the protection of affirmative action, what we brought up was this big conversation that the college admissions process isn't fair. Do you think that the college admissions process could ever be fair? Are there any aspects of it that are fair right now?
[00:29:16] Francesca Larson: Y'all are right in the middle of it. So you would know better than anybody else right now. 
[00:29:22] Ashlee Gahart: I mean, I think that some colleges are trying their best with the overturning of affirmative action to kind of create things in their application to allow students to have more of a voice so that the school can see them outside of what their grades and test scores say and outside of their personal essay.
[00:29:43] Ashlee Gahart: Like, one of the schools I applied to, I had to write like five mini essays about it. It wasn't too long, it was like, maybe like a paragraph or two, but it was, they wanted to know more about me as an individual, about not just why I wanted to go to the college, but like, what are the circumstances that have prohibited me from showing myself in a way that is truly honest to the person that I am.
[00:30:09] Ashlee Gahart: So I think that some colleges try their best to keep up with diversity and diversifying student population and student body outside of affirmative action, but it's not a guarantee that every college is going to be like that because again, we still have legacy admissions especially for ivy schools are very highly selective schools and most of those schools are predominantly white because white people were the only people that were allowed to go to those kinds of colleges.
[00:30:42] Ashlee Gahart: So You have legacy students of rich white people, and it's just, the cycle continues. So it's like, what if someone else wants to go, and they are qualified enough, or they just didn't have the kind of opportunities to be qualified enough? I think it's a little hypocritical to get rid of affirmative action and not get rid of the other things that also benefit students.
[00:31:09] Ashlee Gahart: I mean, if you're going to get rid of something, at least, Be fair across all this, all boards, all spectrums, you know, don't just single it out to one group of people and still have something that benefits somebody else because then that's just not fair to everyone else who has worked their butt off to try to get to where those other people are.
[00:31:34] Junius Williams: You're talking about the injustice of preferences and they won't allow preference for the folks as you described yourself. The people with money have monetized the advantage they have. You have special courses to take the SAT. Some people even bribed the admissions officers to say, well, hey, we, we, we, we row.
[00:32:04] Junius Williams: We, we can, we can play tennis. And they didn't. And some of them got a slap on the, I don't know if you read about that or not, but some parents got a slap on the wrist for, for doing that. It's. It's not just that folks who are poor and who have a certain color of their skin, it's not just that we are disadvantaged, it's that other people have monetized the advantage they had.
[00:32:32] Junius Williams: And that's why, to answer your question, the game plays on. The game plays on, preferences exist. Some of them are allowed. And what the Supreme Court says is that the preference that was once given to people who were striving and couldn't get those same opportunities to pass those tests, those standardized tests, that's gone.
[00:33:03] Junius Williams: Hmm. What do you think? 
[00:33:09] Malachi Gwyn: I agree with Ashley. I feel that if you're going to remove a system that afforded a specific group up to your, you know, a point. I like, I like that language. To afford them an advantage to all of these other advantages that allow students to become equivalent. Now, it's like a seesaw.
[00:33:31] Malachi Gwyn: Now there's an imbalance. So, I feel there's some weight that needs to be carried. If it's not going to be the same thing, then we need something. We can't leave it to just be vacant. Now, for the students that aren't afforded with the privilege of having someone that went to that same institution, or the privilege of picking up a basket, of being able to, you know, play sports What about the students that, that are looking to be lawyers?
[00:34:06] Malachi Gwyn: The students that are looking to be in the medical field but may have not had the same advantages that other students may have in terms of their education through K through 12? So I, I'm, I'm mentioning that because, you know, we were mentioning a point about the education system and how that is a possibility of carrying that weight.
[00:34:27] Malachi Gwyn: You know, although it's, you know, idealistic that every single child is afforded the same education throughout the entire world, it's not realistic. That we'll never have the, we'll never be reading the same book that a private school or, you know, a different school is reading. Even throughout the cities.
[00:34:48] Malachi Gwyn: So, how can we make all students applications equivalent now that there's a vacancy and it's, you know, Down here when like the legacy program and the athletic scholarships are up here. 
[00:35:00] Ashlee Gahart: Well, can I add on a little bit? I think affirmative action is a temporary solution for a long ongoing systemic problem that has been affecting people.
[00:35:12] Ashlee Gahart: And I think one of the solutions to combat that is through the educational system. Like you said, you're right. We are not going to all have the same. There's always going to be somebody who's getting better than us. They're getting better, more quality education. They're always somebody who's going to have private tutors and going to be put in special programs to be able to get to where they want to be.
[00:35:37] Ashlee Gahart: But, I think that we should make education more accessible for people and more equitable for people. So, like, that includes, like, school funding. For more information, visit www. FEMA. gov so that people in marginalized communities are able to get that kind of education and also reforming the education system.
[00:36:00] Ashlee Gahart: Like, what are they teaching people so that people don't have racial biases or gender biases so that when they're looking at not even just college applications, but like job applications, not having these preferences when they're looking at the applications. uprooting the systemic issues that have affected us.
[00:36:21] Ashlee Gahart: And not just minority groups, but everybody, every single person has been affected by it. Uprooting and dismantling those issues would help step us up towards a more equal society. And that's not to say that it's going to be perfect. It never is. But it's a more long term solution. If you start from the beginning, from kindergarten, building up these students to make sure that they have more equal opportunity.
[00:36:52] Ashlee Gahart: Like, I used to live in a richer community, and starting in elementary school, we had special programs that you could be put into to help you progress. So by the time you were in elementary school. 8th grade, you would be in Algebra 1 or Algebra 2, so that by the time you started high school, you were doing Pre Calculus or AP Calculus freshman or sophomore year.
[00:37:19] Ashlee Gahart: I was in Pre Algebra in 7th grade. I was supposed to go into Algebra 1 in 8th grade, but then I moved to Newark. And they didn't have honors programs. They didn't have any of those types of extra boosts in classes to help students go further so that they could complete their courses sooner or have harder courses.
[00:37:42] Ashlee Gahart: So I was put at regular classes. And I had to work my way back up in high school to be able to get to where I was previously. And I think that is something that we can fix so that students have access to more difficult classes, to tutoring, and to other things that will help boost them, you know? So the whole point is just fixing the systemic issues, like, to make it more long term.
[00:38:10] Ashlee Gahart: And it's not gonna be But it's a step to get to where we want to be at. 
[00:38:17] Junius Williams: Or, in the case of Junius Williams growing up in Richmond, Virginia, same situation. Only there were no special classes that we could take because it was a segregated school. I had good teachers, but the curriculum was only so wide and so deep.
[00:38:38] Junius Williams: So when I got ready to go to college, I had a 3. 96 grade point average out of 4. It was valedictorian of my class. But I didn't do very well on those standardized tests. But at Amherst College, somebody took that into consideration, which is a temporary solution that you were pointing out. And they said, well, here's this kid.
[00:39:06] Junius Williams: He was sick most of his life. He was absent from school because I had asthma about 25 percent of the time, 33%, but I still maintained my average. So they found a way to judge my quality and my prep, my, my, my, my ability rather than using those standardized tests. And I think that's what you have to do. If they hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been able to go.
[00:39:31] Junius Williams: No way in the world I would have gone to Amherst. But the, the, the Dean of Admissions heard about me from another student who had also gone to my church. And so they were able to take a, a special look at me and judge me based upon what I could do rather than what I didn't do. And then, you know, one, one, one of the things that has to be factored into this whole admissions process, and I don't think it is enough.
[00:39:59] Junius Williams: It's how, how, how hard do you work? How hard does a student work to get the, the, the good grades that they get? I mean, the, the situation that you spelled out, I didn't hear that much about the details of your life, but you seem to say you're about the same. It seems that ought to be considered more because if you work hard, you can overcome a whole lot and I don't think that's being done anymore.
[00:40:26] Francesca Larson: It's a question for y'all based on what Mr. Williams just said. You trusted a person, or in this instance at Amherst College, it was a human, a person who made that decision, who looked at that criteria, rather than a straight point system. Would y'all trust a person to do that work now? 
[00:40:48] Malachi Gwyn: Person in terms of like?
[00:40:50] Malachi Gwyn: In an admissions office. Admissions offices. Yeah. Okay, well I'll get a little personal then. I had my own experience in terms of, you know, the affirmative action in terms of admissions. Not necessarily with colleges, but my mother and I were looking to transfer out of the high school I am now into a private institution.
[00:41:10] Malachi Gwyn: And throughout that admissions process, I was afforded the opportunity for an interview. The college and I mean the private school admissions officer toward me around the school and interviewed me around the school. We had conversations and we went when we went back to his office. We you know, we really bonded on a deeper level.
[00:41:28] Malachi Gwyn: And, you know, I opened up to him explaining that, you know, I'm very driven in terms of my work and my work ethic is. It's very strong and I'm motivated to do the work to learn more and it seemed like they had the technology, the cameras, the microphones, the equipment for me to be able to strive in an environment.
[00:41:49] Malachi Gwyn: That seemed innovative and productive and when I got out, you know, we shook hands and he went in with my mother and we got in the car and she explained to me that, you know, he said that there's a possibility, but at the end of the day, I wasn't what they were looking for. Not because my grades weren't good.
[00:42:07] Malachi Gwyn: Not because my scores weren't good. Not because I wasn't an exemplary student, but because I wasn't what they needed. They were looking for a C average student. Someone with that potential. That they could make better. Not someone who already, and not to say this, Like in a cocky way, like, Oh, I'm already established, but not they want, they were looking for someone that they could make better need, not needless to say that someone who is already established can't get better and thrive with the equipment, but to develop.
[00:42:42] Malachi Gwyn: So it w it was, it was painful and hurting to see that because I was an established student who, who, who took pride in his work already. Without the the need of, you know, a dev, a, a major development or major change, but just the opportunity in a place that is productive, that provides students with the equipment to see that, okay, if this student is doing well in school already, the, the, you're right, despite the test scores, just given the grades.
[00:43:17] Malachi Gwyn: And the way that they present themselves, isn't that enough to say, okay, well, although this isn't what we're looking for in a student that they still bring this to the table, they still have the potential, not as much of a decline as another student that may have a lower grade point average. Who's to say that that can't get better?
[00:43:39] Malachi Gwyn: Who's to say that their, you know, talents, not just within the classroom, But within the entertainment business, nowadays, entertainment, especially in our generation, is a huge thing. Social media YouTube, all the social media apps. It's possible to grow just outside of the classroom. So I feel like if there was a way to intertwine that into our system, to think about, okay, despite this person's ability in the classroom, what else do they have to offer within that admissions process?
[00:44:12] Malachi Gwyn: Their work ethic. Their, their potential to, to, to communicate. Communication is now, I feel, is one of the biggest skills that is hard, it's hard to teach a student. Especially when they're coming out of high school. They're now, you're now an adult. And as an adult, it's the hardest to change. So, why isn't that taken into consideration?
[00:44:31] Malachi Gwyn: Why aren't the skills that are used in life, in general, that will put you in a position for success, not taken into consideration? In just a piece of paper. 
[00:44:43] Junius Williams: Well, I'm hoping that there are some admissions officers out there and maybe some college presidents or some vice presidents or others who are involved in the admissions process who can listen to what you're saying because these are the kinds of things that make whole individuals And I think that's why we want to thank you both here, because you definitely have shown our listeners and our viewers just what Newark schools are producing, and I have a feeling you guys are going to be alright.
[00:45:22] Junius Williams: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:45:23] Ashlee Gahart: Thank you. It was a pleasure being on here today with you. Alright.