Ep 4-03_School Desegregation_Everything’s Political_TRANSCRIPT_Audio version
[00:00:00] Malakai Yepes: Well, being in an environment with people that are like us, we're able to learn more about ourselves and exactly where we come from. Whereas going straight to somewhere that that or people don't look like us, they don't know the struggles that we've gone through, it will once again bring about that feeling of alienation. Like, we don't know who we are. 
[00:00:30] Junius Williams: Hello. I'm Junius Williams, your host on Everything's Political.
[00:00:35] Junius Williams: And this season, we're saying if everything's political, What do young people think? And we have 2 very interesting young people here today from University High School in Newark, And they're gonna talk about a topic that's been very timely, comes up sometimes more often than others. It's about desegregation of schools. I'm joined by my cohost, Francesca Larson. And let me start by asking each of you to introduce yourself.
[00:01:08] Malakai Yepes: My name is Malakai. I'm so honored to be here. Malakai who? Um, Malakai Yebes. 
[00:01:16] Kimaya Jones: Hello. My name is Kimaya. Kimaya Kimaya Jones. 
[00:01:19] Junius Williams: And both of you are juniors At University High. I understand. 
[00:01:25] Kimaya Jones: Yes.
[00:01:26] Malakai Yepes: Yes. That is correct.
[00:01:27] Junius Williams: I want you to Talk a little bit about your concept of what it means to desegregate or integrate Schools. 
[00:01:38] Malakai Yepes: Well, I think that desegregation is kind of like the attempt to bring different backgrounds and cultures of students, bringing them together so that we can kind of unify all of our understandings to come to one larger consensus.
[00:01:55] Kimaya Jones: No. It's actually I I don't know if I could top that, but that was a great definition. Um, So yes. Well, I agree with Malakai is bringing, um, a group of kids or just a group of people, whether that be different beliefs, different backgrounds, different cultures, bringing them together To either learn or just to, you know, learn about a topic or just learn about each other. 
[00:02:16] Junius Williams: Okay. Now In New Jersey, and it's certainly true in Newark let me pull out this Summary of a case here. The New Jersey Superior Court decided in a School desegregation case in October of 2023. They said that, yes, many students are in segregated schools. And they said that it's the state's responsibility to cure that matter because the New Jersey constitution says segregated schools are illegal. But it opens the question, what is the solution?
[00:02:58] Junius Williams: First, are you familiar with that constitutional provision? 
[00:03:01] Malakai Yepes: Yes.
[00:03:02] Junius Williams: I'm not gonna ask you to be lawyers, but I I wanna 
[00:03:05] Francesca Larson: We could pretend today. 
[00:03:06] Malakai Yepes: pretend lawyers. I like that.
[00:03:07] Kimaya Jones: I like that too. That sounds pretty cool. 
[00:03:09] Francesca Larson: One of us is a real lawyer. 
[00:03:10] Junius Williams: Alright. Yeah.
[00:03:11] Junius Williams: Yeah. I did that. And, uh, first, tell me what you know about the the other litigation About, uh, segregated schools, starting with whatever you know about schools' desegregation cases. 
[00:03:28] Malakai Yepes: Well, the most prominent one that comes to my mind is the Ruby Bridges, um, situation way back in, I believe it was the fifties, where Ruby Bridges was going to an all white school that know that all the white teachers that taught there didn't want to teach her because of her skin color. And while that problem was solved, I suppose you could say that it was solved during that time, we still face it today.
[00:03:56] Malakai Yepes: Oh, definitely. Completely. And well, that that's that's just my layman's terms of segregation in in today's society. 
[00:04:06] Junius Williams: And so the issue that you are referring to is the fact that If we have desegregation, and you're talking about beyond Newark, maybe even beyond Oh, beyond Newark, let's say, going to some of the suburban schools. There wouldn't be too many black folks So Latino folks there in in a in a sea of white.
[00:04:32] Junius Williams: Um, would you feel comfortable in an environment like that? 
[00:04:37] Malakai Yepes: Around people that were different than me, that looked different than me. Um, I can actually bring up a personal anecdote about how of my time at university high school in my freshman year, I didn't actually know what was in store for me when I went there, I originally decided to pursue my writing career at university. And when I got there, everyone like, a majority of the school didn't look like me, and I felt this kind of looming presence of alienation that people had these preconceived notions about me and just because of the way that I looked, the way that I talked, because I naturally I like to articulate my words, and I come off as, in some people's eyes, pompous or I'm not sure what the what the word I could use for that. But, yeah, that that that sense of alienation first going to university, it really kind of hindered me, if that makes sense, during my freshman year.
[00:05:46] Junius Williams: And you're from Colombia? 
[00:05:48] Malakai Yepes: Yes. I am a quarter Colombian. 
[00:05:50] Junius Williams: Alright. Well, did that have an impact on the way you saw yourself in terms of being different?
[00:05:58] Malakai Yepes: Well, a lot of people, at least in my life, have seen me as they don't notice the fact that I am of Spanish, Latin descent. They usually look at me, and they assume that I'm a member of the Caucasian community. And I feel like I have features about me that would clearly indicate that I'm not Caucasian, but the wide perception of me is that I am Caucasian. 
[00:06:29] Junius Williams: How about you, Kimaya? Let's talk about Ruby Bridges In that school situation where she was the only black one.
[00:06:37] Junius Williams: I mean, there was there was no question that she was black. Mhmm. What does that environment mean to you? 
[00:06:48] Kimaya Jones: I think that Her just simply even going to a school where there were no kids that looked like her was just brave and just by itself. That's definitely something that I can't say not many kids of me and Malakai's generation would do because they're not what people that look like them.
[00:07:05] Kimaya Jones: They're not people that sound like them, that talk like them. And I feel like that was a brave step on her behalf. And me personally, I I can definitely relate to that. Like, I when I came to Newark, I actually was originally in Maplewood, South Orange. And I I came to Newark and what how Malakai felt in university's first year freshman year, a little alienation.
[00:07:27] Kimaya Jones: That's kinda how I felt. Because same way that I got called whitewashed because I articulate my words Differently. I actually like when I'm in the classroom, that's where I shine. I'm talking, and I love learning, and I love teaching what I've learned to other people. And they took it as like, oh, I'm whitewashed.
[00:07:43] Kimaya Jones: I'm this and I'm that. And, like, people don't realize, you know, that I'm just like everybody else. It's just that I may talk a little different. You know, I may not be the same skin color as you're like. We're all from the same descent.
[00:07:54] Kimaya Jones: So I feel like what Rupert Bridges did in its own, Amazingly brave. I could totally do that again if I if I would. If I will go back, I wouldn't change a thing about the journey. 
[00:08:04] Junius Williams: So You're articulating an experience of desegregation Mhmm. That's totally different from the context, The post came through in my generation.
[00:08:18] Junius Williams: Mhmm. Because we think of desegregation as you're black, You're going to a white school. Mhmm. It wasn't so much white going to black school Mhmm. Because they just didn't do it.
[00:08:30] Junius Williams: Yeah. They Stayed out of school, formed their own schools in Virginia where I came from. They even shut down this whole school district In one city in in Virginia rather than desegregate the schools. So there's a there's a group of kids, They're not kids now, but they're people my age who just didn't have any schools. Mhmm.
[00:08:51] Junius Williams: Any school and beyond a certain grade because they had nowhere to go. So that was the circumstance under which desegregation took place. Do you think that would happen now if the judge said, well, Black folks should be able to go to Millburn or from Newark. What would happen? 
[00:09:15] Malakai Yepes: Well, I think that segregation, at least in our modern time, has become less apparent.
[00:09:23] Malakai Yepes: The fact that we have black, white, Latino, Asian kids, we're all going together to the same schools, which was the problem originally that we weren't allowed to attend those schools. Now we are allowed to go to those schools. But instead of being separated in terms of physicality, we're more socially divided, if that makes sense. The fact that we aren't offered the same experiences because one we don't understand each other and our different cultures. And the fact that we aren't given the kinds of facilities needed to understand our cultures.
[00:10:02] Francesca Larson: Do you think that and one of the things that I'm hearing is, one, that the the lines around desegregation and integration have blurred quite a bit, and the generations that have happened. Mhmm. Especially with the experiences that you're both sharing and even as I think about my own experiences, Uh, when you're talking about this concept of passing, um, or with you, Kimaya, the the idea of These are the expectations of being from a specific race or background or culture. These are the stereotypes that are associated with them. Those lines are getting blurred right now.
[00:10:41] Francesca Larson: But when you when you all are considering, hey. This is what works in a class room or this is what I want access to. What do you think we should be advocating for as part of desegregation right now? Because it doesn't sound like we're we just need to be advocating for being in the same space. Sounds like you're advocating for access to resources, that you are for policy to take a closer look at where segregation is occurring.
[00:11:14] Kimaya Jones: So, um, on that topic, when you can you can clearly see, like, when you look in so for example, We can look in a more urban community. The resources are not that good. They may not have access to, let's say, for condition. We could say in our school, maybe air conditioners. Things of that nature, you see you go to a different school, they have that and more 10 times more on top of that.
[00:11:39] Kimaya Jones: And it's and you look at it. You're in this school, and you're like, well, that's unfair that they get that, and we get not even half of that. Like, we're all students just trying to go to school, just trying to learn, just trying to graduate. Why is it that there is not the same amount of resources given To both schools no matter what the race of the kid is, no matter where they come from, no matter what they background, no matter what they can bring, Why is should it why is there a differentiation between the two when we're all students just trying to learn, just trying to get ahead? I don't see yet.
[00:12:11] Junius Williams: Well, is there any other way to get the resources other than to say we must Desegregate, go to the suburbs, go to another part of of a geographic area.
[00:12:27] Kimaya Jones: I think this is when we can start advocating for ourselves, like, where, you know, when they're now starting to change them, like, you're now the voting age is now 17. I think that If we go out and protest, like, you know, we've seen how protesting can affect change, such as, like, the the March on Washington in 1963 that affected major Change for, um, black and Latinos. And I think that if us young people were to go out and advocate for those things, I think that they could definitely come for us. 
[00:12:56] Francesca Larson: You just mentioned the voting age being 17.
[00:12:58] Francesca Larson: Can you talk a little bit about that? I know that we have some viewers that are outside of New Jersey who might not be watching change the local news about what's happening in Newark and kind of a historic moment that's happening. 
[00:13:09] Kimaya Jones: Yes. It's very historic. I actually recently just found out about it, so I'm still Just a little bit rusty on what I know, but I think that just the voting registration age being lowered just a year to 17, that is major news because Even though we're not legal yet, we still have things that we see in our society that wanna be changed, that we want the better we want better for our kids' kids.
[00:13:32] Kimaya Jones: We just don't want better for ourselves, and we also want better for the people around us. So the low those are the age being lowered. Amazing accomplishment, and I hope that kids do really honestly go out and vote and see the change that they wanna see in the future. 
[00:13:46] Malakai Yepes: And I think that goes back to my point about having more enhanced facilities, especially to be more informed on what our votes and the decisions that we make pertaining to our own city and country, how those will affect everybody in the country. Because if we don't if we're not informed, we make a mindless decision.
[00:14:09] Malakai Yepes: Possible the the ramifications could be dastardly is to put it in simple terms. 
[00:14:17] Junius Williams: Well, let's Play devil's advocate here because people are 
[00:14:22] Francesca Larson: Told you we got the lawyer. 
[00:14:25] Junius Williams: People are assuming People are assuming that one has to go to where the resources are to get access To the resources. That's the underlying basis for desegregation. Although there are some other kinds of theories on that too.
[00:14:44] Junius Williams: For example, Back in the 1950's, there was a man named Dr. Kenneth Clark who Administer the doll test to some little black kids, white doll, black doll. Which do you prefer? And most of them say we want the white doll. So his position was and we used to argue about this all the time. He became a friend of mine.
[00:15:10] Junius Williams: He said you have to go black people have to go to the white schools In order to get rid of that feeling, in order to feel comfortable with themselves. Do you all believe that? 
[00:15:24] Kimaya Jones: No. Um, so let's say we go to this white school. We don't like what Malakai said, we don't know the ramifications of what can happen.
[00:15:33] Kimaya Jones: Like, you can start to feel alien alienated. Excuse me. And you can also feel out of like, you're having out of body experience. You're around kids you don't know, Around people who don't share the same experience to you, who don't share the same maybe not even the same home life as you, who are being taught different things, and you're just putting These black and Latino kids in the school with these white kids, who knows what can happen? Because it like, I I was talking to the other day that it really honestly does all start at home.
[00:15:59] Kimaya Jones: It depends on what the kid what the child is being taught at home by their parents. Are their parents teaching them how to love no matter what race it is? Are their parents teaching them to discriminate and only love what they see in the mirror? To only love who looks like them. So it it honestly all starts at home with that.
[00:16:14] Junius Williams: Let's hear from a young lady named Takeya Howell, Who was with us. She, um, goes to Bard High School, and she has a particular opinion about what would happen if she went to one of these white schools, predominantly white schools Mhmm. And she felt as though she had to stand up. 
[00:16:37] Takeya Howell: My mom always told me this. If there's ever an issue with somebody, there's always somebody higher up That can challenge what you're saying about that person.
[00:16:44] Takeya Howell: You know? So and it's like, if they don't wanna agree with you, go with somebody that's higher than them. So I just always learn to you know? If you don't if you don't like something that's being done, you better say something. 
[00:16:56] Kimaya Jones: So fight for herself. Her mom I think her mom gave her a great piece of advice. I think that if you want better, you go out and you go get better. So I think if she truly wanted to see change, she would go out and go get that change, and she would get people like minded around her To go get that change to really get what she truly wants and also what we truly deserve as students, ultimately. 
[00:17:19] Junius Williams: Now here's another fun fact, and I'm gonna address I wanna direct this to you first. First of all Malakai, the Brookings Institute did a report.
[00:17:31] Junius Williams: Brookings Institute, big think tank down in Washington. People seem to think that what they think is important. So let's Just use this for a reference. Brookings Institute reported that they found a significant benefit to young Disadvantage black youth in particular saying, if a black male student At least one has at least one black teacher in the third, fourth, and fifth grade. He is significantly less likely to drop out of high school and more likely to aspire to attend a 4 year college.
[00:18:12] Junius Williams: Now that's saying something about I guess that's kinda like what you were saying, Kamaia about the cultural Advantage of being around or in a supportive environment. What do you think about that? 
[00:18:28] Malakai Yepes: Well, being in an environment with people that are like us, we're able to learn more about ourselves and exactly where we come from. Whereas going straight to somewhere that's that where people don't look like us, they don't know the struggles that we've gone through, it will once again bring about that feeling of alienation. Like, we don't know who we are.
[00:18:51] Malakai Yepes: We don't know why you're here with us instead of someone that looks like us. We don't know what you're going to teach us about either ourselves or people that look like us. We don't know exactly how they're going to try and change our perception of our own people, of how even if and let me bring this up. Uh, how even if we're probably going to be somewhat assimilated, if that makes sense, to the cultures that we don't know, they're going to teach us about cultures that are that they're familiar with rather than the cultures that we're familiar with and sort of I don't like the word convert, but sort of change our modes of thought as to what is the norm, what what is normal for you to believe, and what is normal for you to learn and bring out into the world. 
[00:19:44] Junius Williams: Now in that context, uh, we had another young student talking to us, uh, That you may know Terril Coley from university.
[00:19:53] Junius Williams: And I asked him, would you go to a white college? And this is what he said. For me, 
[00:20:00] Terril Coley: I would try to. I would adapt to. I'm not just gonna say right off the bat, oh, there's so many white people here.
[00:20:07] Terril Coley: No. I'm not going to that school. I'm not saying that. I always have to try something because you never know. So I I'm not gonna say no to it.
[00:20:15] Terril Coley: I'm going to try it out, see how it is. 
[00:20:18] Malakai Yepes: I do believe I would. And barring everything I said before, I do believe that these colleges, these predominantly white institutions, like, the Ivy Leagues, for example, that have been around for generations now. Those are definitely have a higher white population, a higher Caucasian population in terms of the enrollment. And because they're they have such a vibrant Caucasian community, they have they have the kind of resources that I want to have personally.
[00:20:51] Malakai Yepes: So things like advanced programs, better living situations, like, things that I generally am not privy to. Even though I'm not in an environment with everyone like me. I would take that chance of alienation again just so I could experience for myself the kind of environment that I could be having in this area. 
[00:21:16] Francesca Larson: It sounds like you're thinking that you're prepared for the alienation And that might happen, but you're also ready to take advantage of the resources. 
[00:21:24] Malakai Yepes: Yes. Of course. 
[00:21:27] Francesca Larson: It's a interesting conflict to have. Right? 
[00:21:30] Malakai Yepes: Yeah. It's kind of like a conflict with one side of myself between another side of myself where on one hand, I don't want to feel like I don't belong in this place, but at the same time, I do wanna take advantage of the resources that this place offers.
[00:21:45] Malakai Yepes: And so I'm kind of clashing with two different ideologies within my head. 
[00:21:49] Francesca Larson: Yeah. I wonder if you would feel the same way if you We're having a different high school experience. 
[00:21:55] Malakai Yepes: Well, actually, um, I actually now in my junior year, I've mentioned my freshman and how that was, like, heavily I felt not even persecuted, but definitely some like, I don't wanna keep using the word alienation, but it's the best one I can find to use. Um, now that I've spent 2 more years at university, I've gotten to know amazing people like my friend, Kimaya, here.
[00:22:21] Malakai Yepes: Um, I've gotten to know all these people who don't exactly look like me, don't aren't aren't taught the exact same things as me, and I've been learning about their cultures. And not unlearning everything that I've learned, but adding to that knowledge that I already have with knowledge that people of different communities and colors can provide to me just so that I can, not even like the word I said before assimilate, but synergize rather my understanding with the understanding of a different culture. Um, 
[00:22:56] Kimaya Jones: I would totally take the opportunity to go to a PWI. I think that 
[00:23:00] Junius Williams: To a what?
[00:23:00] Kimaya Jones: A p a prom a predominantly white institution.
[00:23:02] Kimaya Jones: Okay. Um, I would totally take the opport my apologies. I would totally take the opportunity because I feel like what Malakai said, the resources, the better living, and you get to meet other people who are not just who who do not just look like you. Unfortunately, I can say most black and lit most black and Latino households that the message of that the white man is the bad man, Unfortunately, it's always is unfortunately a preach message. Not in every household.
[00:23:30] Kimaya Jones: I'm not putting that to every household, but that is a preach message. And My mom did not teach me that. Like, we are all people at the end of the day. And I luckily, I didn't have any not So good experiences with white people. I've actually had great experiences with them, and they never treated me as if I was indifferent.
[00:23:47] Kimaya Jones: Like, I can I've always I've always tried to do this that I've had that I can connect with anybody no matter what background, no matter what race. And I feel like going to a predominantly white institution Would just help that flourish even more because I can meet new people, people who are maybe who don't look like me, but are more similar to me than I think. And I think having that experience is something that you can treasure for a lifetime. 
[00:24:12] Francesca Larson: I've got one more question. 
[00:24:13] Junius Williams: Okay.
[00:24:14] Francesca Larson: So it was going back to something Kamiyah said earlier, and it was about air conditionings or air conditioners in classrooms. And My kids are in Jersey City public school system, and the largest topic at our council meetings sometimes is over air conditioners in the school. And I was thinking about what you were saying, Malakai, about Different rights to resources that students have. So as we talk about what it looks like to have desegregated schools or integrated schools, It also feels like you're saying that there are certain rights that students should have in in a school. What are some of those other rights?
[00:24:53] Francesca Larson: Because air conditioning is a big one. Like, the right to be comfortable Definitely. While you're learning Mhmm. Is a huge one that Folks with air conditioning classrooms fully take for granted. What other ones are there?
[00:25:07] Kimaya Jones: I would say resources, rights to proper books, Books that are not vandalized. Malakai, we we we heard it right there. Books that are not vandalized, books that, um, are because there are now like, this is this this is really, really also a serious topic where they are starting to erase history. Like, they are starting to erase African African American history. They're starting to erase, especially Native American history, rights to books that not only are not vandalized, but also books that share rich information, Information that we can use in the long run, not just information that only could be used in the classroom so that we can learn about other different cultures and topics because we just can't learn about our own Because it's kind of like you need to know and be well versed and well cultured in multiple different areas, not just one.
[00:25:58] Junius Williams: Thank you both. We could keep talking to you for a long time. Um, since you are juniors, maybe we'll whirl back around and get you At another point hopefully, we can keep this kind of dialogue going, and we hope to see you again. 
[00:26:15] Kimaya Jones: Thank you. 
[00:26:15] Malakai Yepes: Thank you so much.
[00:26:16] Malakai Yepes: Yes. 
[00:26:19] Junius Williams: Everything's political podcast is Sponsored by the Center for Education and Juvenile Justice and supported by the Terrell Foundation and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation And listeners like you. It is produced by Mosaic Strategies and Dreamplay Media with theme music by Anthony Ant Jackson, if you like this episode, please subscribe to the Everything's Political podcast on YouTube, press the red button, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And if you can connect with us on Facebook and Instagram, do so. See you next time. And remember, stay political.