This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created. Gunnar Hellekson: Dave from the other side of the world. Yeah, I recently spent a week in Indonesia. David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: specifically in Bali Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Have you been there before? Gunnar Hellekson: It's cool. No, I'd never been and I will admit that I was not ready for the experience. I got off the airplane and it's a, big old airport open Which reminded me very much of my home airport of Honolulu. And I said,… David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: I know what's going on here. This is a tropical equatorial kind of situation. cool. I got it. This is just a way. And then I spent two days, in conference rooms and remained convinced that I was in Hawaii or at least an equivalent experience. But then on the last day, I got a chance to kind of knock around a bit before my flight went home and got to actually see Bali and man what a wonderful country. Everyone will tell you… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: how friendly and warm everyone is and that's true. Gunnar Hellekson: also Such a unique and interesting culture the UN is not kidding when they created all these world heritage sites and the gamelan orchestra is on the yonkulit puppetry shows and it is really something that feels unique in the world just to give you an example in front of many stores. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That I passed by there is an altar there to various deities I suppose. Gunnar Hellekson: And even an auto repair shop had a pile of flowers and incense right there in the driveway of the repair shop in the instance is burnt it was like every morning they kind of laid this thing out and I presume it's for good fortune right draw good business in there. David Egts: right Gunnar Hellekson: There's funny to see the cars and the mopeds pulling into the repair shop and then carefully avoiding the altar that they had put right in the center of the driveway fully integrated into the lifestyle… David Egts: Yeah, right. Gunnar Hellekson: if you like and… David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: so much so that it was often difficult to tell a temple from a place of business from a house. It seemed like there was every fifth building was a temple and every third building was a moped repair shop or… David Egts: We're both. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it was a fascinating place. It was really cool. It was great. David Egts: Yeah, what would you want to go back there on vacation? Gunnar Hellekson: I would definitely go back there. Yeah, it's quite a haul from Austin. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It was 25 hours in transit something like that. Yeah. It's That we were joking when we got there. It's a little bit like, you make the journey and you arrive at different person than when you left right? I feel like the plane ride was so long that it was like I got married I had kids. David Egts: yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Away kids went to college and… Gunnar Hellekson: then I landed in Bali right? It's yeah,… David Egts: Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: but yeah, it was great. I recommend it if you ever get a chance to visit Bali it is a really special place. It was great. Yeah. David Egts: Nice. Yeah, I'm similar where. it's like we're gonna go on the family vacation and it's like do you want to go to Hawaii or do you want to go to Miami or whatever and in the thing is it for me? It's such a long haul to get to Hawaii relative to two hours direct flight. I mean, Miami, and it's like How much better Is it worth the extra day on each end and maybe I don't know yet. I haven't done it yet and Yeah, it's one of the things I got I gotta try it. Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: But I'd rather spend instead of spending two days in the air. I could spend two extra days on a beach. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, That's right. Yeah fair trade. I think if I was left my own devices, I probably would not have visited for that reason in this case. I was coerced into going by work. So that helped right? David Egts: Yeah, right. No, that's always helpful. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm way less boring I barely left my Housing Development last week. So Yeah, I was in DC last week for a couple days. but outside of that it's like I'm like man. I just need to have my wife walk me around outside for a little bit and you bring me back in it's like you get cooped up and don't get out much, 00:05:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah,'s That's right. So I'm going to be going to Vegas next week and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I suspect I will… David Egts: to cancel out all the ballet stuff. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. That's a totally different situation different experience. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, it may feel like a 25 hour flight,… David Egts: and work is making you do that too. Yeah, yeah also work coerced. Gunnar Hellekson: but that's David Egts: But yes. Gunnar Hellekson: Yes, correct. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah,… David Egts: maybe there's a bali theme colorless Casino. I don't know. Gunnar Hellekson: yeah, I can't wait to see how the casino might have used that beautiful culture. David Egts: right exactly Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Hey, that was my week. David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: Geez, we got a great show lined up for everybody today. It's a classic Dave and Gunnar material. So we got input devices for your mouth. We talked about cutting animals in half and regrowing them. We talked about AI of course and a little bit of we're going to talk about the opposite of deja vu we're gonna drive into that. Yeah, so,… Gunnar Hellekson: that's all right. David Egts: yeah, so for people to, get links to Bali and pick up a travel brochure and all that. where should we send them? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, they need to go to a DG show.org. That's D and Dave cheers and Gunnar's show.org. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah, and then Cutting Room floor. We got, One D Pac-Man if you haven't played it, it's well worth it. Awesome game for the amount of effort put into it just awesome really highly recommend it. I guess it's built on top of the library that's meant for small games. And for people that haven't tried it yet. basically it's where you only go left and right. Gunnar Hellekson: And surprisingly playable. Yeah. David Egts: It is fun. And It's not as easy as you would think either. yeah, and then we also got the ambaphone so for how sometimes people like the ambient noise when they work where that you want rain or the seashore and all that. I think we've done ones in the past where it's like a coffee shop and all that but this one adds in things like a number Police radio if you want it and also coughing so you could add coughing in and mix it all up too. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah, so you could have a number station in a cave. For example. David Egts: Yeah, Yeah, and then for those that just to hit all of our demographics at to tune in we have an instructional video by David Byrne on how to dance like David Byrne from the Talking Heads. So it's easier and you think it's not bad. And then there's another thing that there's a developer came up with it's the unauthorized David Attenborough AI clone. That narrates this guy's life. so Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: That sounds nice. David Egts: so imagine you got this developer. He has his webcam on as he's running this application and it'll do a screenshot of the webcam. The AI will analyze the picture what's going on inside the picture? pump that into generative AI David Egts: Have a response come back, talking like David Attenborough using a clone of David attenborough's voice. And it's great. And so it's basically, the man is wearing a tribal a blue shirt that is representative of mating rituals. And it's just he goes into this whole thing and it's great. it's hilarious. So Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: and that's all good. That sounds great. excellent David Egts: yeah, let's talk about input devices. So you found this it's this thing called the mouth pad m o u t h pad and… Gunnar Hellekson: Mm-hmm David Egts: to me it looks a retainer, that you just pop in to your upper jaw. Gunnar Hellekson: Yep. David Egts: And there's a sensor on it and you could move your tongue around it, which I guess it's like a two-dimensional almost like a mouse pad right like a fad. Gunnar Hellekson: Yep. David Egts: and then You could do input with it. and to me. It's kind of interesting. it probably has some VR things like we talked about in the past in previous episodes where you got your VR helmet on and you got that feed bag thing and then you got the other thing. It's spraying ultrasonic stuff on your face on your teeth and you can control it now with your tongue. but yeah,… 00:10:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: what do you think about it? Gunnar Hellekson: So on the plane. I watched a lot of Mission Impossible movies like a lot. David Egts: Yes, okay. Gunnar Hellekson: And it seems like exactly the kind of thing that the mission impossible folks the remote control car that comes to rescue them as would be operated through a retainer like this one right kind of imagine it. I mean these folks though are cleaning that there are actual practical non-mission impossible type uses people who work with their hands, but also need to manipulate a digital device. So a surgeon for example David Egts: Yep. auto mechanics. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah auto mechanics. That's right. Although my feeling I don't have surgeons. I feel like I want the surgeon focused on the two hands and manipulating those with their full attention as opposed to also learning at training their tongue to operate the robot scissor armor, whatever it is that you know what I'm saying? David Egts: Yeah, or looking up something in a manual. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It's yeah, yeah. I'm happy for them to have assistance to do things like this rather than a I don't think I need them to get really good at tongue inputs, David Egts: Right and it's like that's what you have. nurses and assistance for right that can do that stuff for you,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: but Yeah, and maybe it's to pick a different. Input device on go from a laser cutter to I don't know screwdriver or what. I don't know what but no I can imagine… Gunnar Hellekson: Right. Yeah. David Egts: but also I can imagine people with disabilities as well it has applications right that are motor control issues. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah That's right. Yeah. Yeah, so if you don't have the use of your hands or for your arms or whatever reason, having something like this it's obviously useful, right? David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Here's my plea let's not get more clever than that. look Let's constraint. David Egts: Yes, yeah, and like are you gonna wear it all day What's it gonna do to your teeth, and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: and your palate right where … Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: how people have the crick in their neck from looking at their phones all day, what's gonna happen to their tongues and their jaws as is this comes out but Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Although it's also true that the tongue is the strongest muscle in the body, right? David Egts: I guess yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: isn't it I was told that's yeah. David Egts: Donna Yeah, but it's a used in a particular way, but you're using it in slightly repetitive a different way that it wasn't intended I guess. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. The last thing I need is an RSI right Undertone. Yeah,… David Egts: on your tongue Right. Gunnar Hellekson: that's right. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah, and then how do you like you take it out? You got to charge it, or do you have a cable coming out of your mouth? Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. Lots of practical questions. David Egts: Yeah, and do you drop it in some effort and overnight when you're not using it to clean it? Right. Yeah and… Gunnar Hellekson: Right, and why not? right Yeah. David Egts: sharing it with other people So here try this out. it's like no. Thanks. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: We'll keep an eye on it. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. And then you saw a nice piece and Scientific American about Michael Levin from Tufts University this reminds me a lot of the work that we've been studying on brain organoids and coming up animals and stuff like that. Gunnar Hellekson: Yep. Sorry. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah, that's actually credit to Rusty Foster who found this article by a Rowan Jacobson about this biologist Michael Levin at a Tufts University. David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: And so what this guy's all about is basal cognition, So that's this idea that memory or learning? Is it just located in the brain? It can also be held by the rest of the body. And so of course,… David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: there are some experiments that you can run to test this and useful for these experiences this kind of flatworm called a planarian what's useful here is that you can cut that worm in half and… David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: it will grow back the parts that are missing. So if you cut one of these things in half eventually they grow back and eventually turns into two worms. And so he uses this property to run some very interesting experiments. David Egts: right Gunnar Hellekson: And obviously the worm has a head end and a tail end, right the head end where the brain presumably resides and then the tail end where it doesn't and so he basically taught these worms to seek out liver, which they think is delicious. And it takes them out over this corrugated dish. so the worms Learn that the corrugated dish leads to liver right then. He cuts their heads off. And allows them to regenerate and then puts them and then some worms were on a smooth dish and others want a corrugated dish, right? And basically they regenerate and the regenerated worms retain the memory or the relationship between the corrugated dish and the liver. Such that. 00:15:00 David Egts: Interesting. the training Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's And so the worms that lived on smooth dishes didn't move or reluctant to move but worms that were on the rough dishes learned to go for the food more quickly. Despite the fact that we had completely replaced their brains. David Egts: right, right. Gunnar Hellekson: So that's interesting. There's a whole digression here also about touch me knots. I don't know. If you've ever had these I grew up in Hawaii there were these kind of feathery Fern looking things. But if you touch them they close. A little bit like a Venus flytrap,… David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: but even to stay operating on touch. and there's this team of scientists in Western Australia and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Italy who learned how they would Acclimatize the plant to jostling normally if you jostle it, the fern will close. But here they continued they continuously jostled the plant such that it eventually learned to just ignore the stimulus. David Egts: right David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: And it's a plant. Gunnar Hellekson: So there's no brain for it to hold this learning and it just learned itself without the benefit of a brain right? That's it. Gunnar Hellekson: and another piece because these plants like the Venus fly trap. They can actually be knocked out by anesthetic gas. David Egts: Which assumes are conscious? Gunnar Hellekson: So you can Assumes that conscious or have some kind of function nervous system, which of course they don't except for the fact that it works. And so you can actually adjust the tie them and they stop reacting. there's no electrically Flatline, right? So then our friend Professor Levin starts doing further experiments with these plenarians where he'll cut them in half or He'll get them accustomed to a certain electrical current at the head end and then another at the tail end. that the woman have And then switch up where the current is going. So the head ends now on the tail and the tail is now on the head end and the warm will regenerate. according to the current So you can create two tails or… David Egts: Gunnar Hellekson: create two heads and so can create a functioning two-headed worm. Or plenary. David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right and then that got him curious. Some further experiments he found that he could actually trigger the creation of a functioning eyeball anywhere on a tadpole just by applying the correct kind of current. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Nightmare fuel because obviously unhinged… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: but super interesting right this idea that you hear your people who go through physical that they'll say things like people hold trauma in the body,… David Egts: All right. Gunnar Hellekson: And I think everybody that and we treat that as a metaphor, right? And Michael Levin argues,… David Egts: right Gunnar Hellekson: not met for perhaps. We are literally holding these memories in our bodies. David Egts: right Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Gunnar Hellekson: super cool super cool Yeah, so working anywhere you want on your body. Why not? David Egts: Why not? Yeah. yeah, he's definitely an idea man. So David Egts: And then when you described it, too, it's like I've heard this before it's like you cut the worm in half and then the other half grows about but the memory is the interesting part to me. … Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. David Egts: there's probably some DNA sequence that talks about that figures out the Regeneration that doesn't really require any sort of brain knowledge to regrow the body parts. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: right Yeah, and so yeah, the simple regeneration you could just say, okay, that's just fine. that's lucky worm gets to do that. that's a genetic trick. Right? It's the idea that you can actually compel it to regrow in different ways based on a stimulus that existed before it was severed. David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: Yes. right Gunnar Hellekson: Is the crazy part right? Wild 00:20:00 David Egts: yeah, that's very interesting nice Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: basal cut Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: that's where has this been all my life. I need to study up more and so Yeah, yeah. awesome Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. David Egts: So I'll tell you about something that is going around on the internet. a lot as opposed to Basil cognition It so… Gunnar Hellekson: All right. David Egts: since you've quit the Twitter, I don't think you can search on Twitter. Can you? Gunnar Hellekson: I think they lock it down pretty tight. It's almost as hard to get to his Instagram, right? Yeah,… David Egts: Yeah, you got to be logged in Yeah, so you could live vicariously through me. Gunnar Hellekson: yeah, that's right. David Egts: I'll tell you all about it. So if you go to Twitter and people could do this now and it's probably getting cleaned up as we speak. But if you search for you go to Twitter you go in the search box and you goes against openai's. And apostrophe. Yes and just search for that. it returns all these broken robot replies inside a tweets Gunnar Hellekson: Perfect. David Egts: Yeah, so it's like you scroll down and you don't just look at the most popular ones look at the latest ones and the latest Tab and you just scroll and scroll and the replies are some form of I'm sorry. I cannot provide a response as it goes against open ai's policy. David Egts: there's one guy that he posted in on Twitter. I assume he really posted it as opposed to an AI. He said that I'm sorry, but I cannot provide an answer to your question goes against openai's use case policy is his favorite new way of replying to spam. Gunnar Hellekson: It's David Egts: Which is brilliant, and it's like I want to answer the phone that way too, if I think it's like a call, telemarket or… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah,… David Egts: something, right? Gunnar Hellekson: It's perfect. Yeah. I love it. David Egts: And then The other thing is it and this is starting to get fixed now too. But if you click on it's an artist technical link about a lazy use of AI and… Gunnar Hellekson: Mm-hmm David Egts: that's starting to show up in Amazon product descriptions. So, you… Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. Yes. David Egts: it's broken, and it's funny. It's like there's one caption that talks about it's for a garden hose and it's like stand above the competition with this most wonderful, and then bracket product name and it's a garden hose, but David Egts: and I'm surprised and that I'm the first person I've heard say I have not heard a single person say this yet. But remember the memes that New Yorker mean cartoon memes Gunnar Hellekson: yeah. Yeah, take a famously kind of opaque or inscrutable New Yorker cartoon and then would apply its own caption to it, right? David Egts: Yeah, you apply, one is more explicitive expletive Laden, but there's one is more like a high. Would you like to connect with me on LinkedIn or something like that like that? I am surprised nobody has that I've seen so far hasn't started captioning the New Yorker cartoons with I'm sorry. I cannot provide an answer to your question because it goes against open houses policy and… Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. David Egts: apply that to every cartoon for New Yorker and I think it works. Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. That's great. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I'm trying to think is it What is going wrong here? Is They're just grinding through a bunch of commodity products and just trying to generate new descriptions and new names that the same product is being listed a thousand times by the same company under different company names. David Egts: Might well,… Gunnar Hellekson: Is that what's going on? Okay. David Egts: my guess is an automation gone bad. and it, sort of I think one of the big challenges with generative AI especially as a service companies are providing AI as a service is that those models are changing all the time, so you're not going to have the repeatability that you would have with? software library right… Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: where so you almost need to do Cicd and regression testing every time the model is updated. You got to rerun your code to make sure it doesn't break the AI or all the sudden the thing you're pumping into it is outside the bounds of they're very use policy. and… 00:25:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: so what I'm thinking here, is it probably David Egts: this stuff was massively automated and somebody changed the AI model and then it broke those automations and it's showing you how much crap is on the internet. That is not human generated. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. The veil is lifted. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. and… Gunnar Hellekson: It's great. David Egts: that's the other business idea that I want to do is I come up with a software as a service company where you can have a bot that you attach to your inbox and when you get spam, you could basically send it to send the spam. to a David Egts: basically a bot and then have the bot carry on a worthless conversation with the person that sent you the spam. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah like a Honey Trap. David Egts: yeah, yeah and just keep the conversation going and just sort of and who knows it could be bots on the other side that are using it and I'll add the link to the show notes, but there's another thing that I saw I forget the name of the company, but I'll have to dig it up, but they have a thing with LinkedIn now to help people with sales. And so imagine instead of somebody goes a LinkedIn there's a prospect that they want to go after they'll go through they'll look at their LinkedIn post. So look at their profiles try to figure out a witty thing for them to say and then to strike up a meaningful conversation and all that. That's all AI automated with this tool. Gunnar Hellekson: yuck David Egts: And yes, and it's like hey, I noticed that I really admire the work that you do at red hat and I noticed that you went to XY you the university and you posted about this on LinkedIn and I'd love to talk with you more. I found it really insightful and then would you like to connect with me and then it could actually keep the chat dialogue going a couple rounds too before it's handed off to the seller. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Hi. yeah, yeah. David Egts: Yeah, and I think I've been getting some of these right where it's instead of just the plain Old Linkedin connect message with no. Addition or in message that is totally copy and paste. It feels very tailored. they put work into it. And then you connect with them and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: then all sudden it turns into hard sales mode. and… Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: Yeah, and it's in their profile doesn't look spammy at first, but then all sudden they're like an offshore recruiter and it's not interested, but not on. Gunnar Hellekson: Since obviously it's obvious who benefits from this but the people who are really suffering from this are the 23 year old inside salespeople who are suffering. David Egts: Yes. Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: Because that's who's being disenfranchised here. David Egts: yeah, yeah or they're embracing it but yeah, I don't know it's crazy. Gunnar Hellekson: I see you're saying it makes them that much more efficient. David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: Or that's part of the game now, We're before the inside sales people,… Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: Their calls weren't recorded. there weren't metrics on how many calls are doing per hour and things like that and now you have all of these David Egts: these automations going on that's going to make it even. David Egts: Maybe it's gonna help them. I don't know but I could also Imagine too. It's like all sudden you Imagine that inside sales rep has account finally has a conversation with that Prospect and then what did you like about my article that you found so insightful and he'd be like, hey, Because it's like that was the bot. That is the one that thought it was exciting, Gunnar Hellekson: Right, right. David Egts: Have you ever heard of deja vu is it sound familiar? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Those are whenever you get deja vu that's… David Egts: Right feels familiar. Gunnar Hellekson: what is it a glitch in The Matrix? 00:30:00 David Egts: Right, right. Yeah, did you know that there's a thing that's actually the opposite of deja vu Gunnar Hellekson: What is that? David Egts: yeah, I think it's French which it tells you I'm gonna poorly pronounce. This is John May vu Gunnar Hellekson: yeah, Jamie Vu right never viewed. David Egts: so that is when something, to be familiar feels unreal or novel in some way. Gunnar Hellekson: yeah. David Egts: So you look at Soren's face and all of a sudden it's like He looks totally different right a growth spurt or something like that. It's like wow word that mustache come from and you're freaked out, right? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah. yeah. Yeah. No, I've had this experience where you look at a totally ordinary thing, but you're still looking at it with what new eyes, right? Yeah. right David Egts: Yeah, Yeah, so there's these scientists and we probably got to connect the scientists with Michael Levin what you do some wonderful work together of how to trigger John May vu and so the way that they were able to trigger it was they would get these study participants to write the same word over and over again. Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: And yeah, so, they were doing things like the word door and it's just right it Same word over and over again. and then whenever put up your hand whenever you've feel any of these symptoms and one of the symptoms were like this isn't the Simpsons of genre vu in terms of the unease and the anxiety and all that right along with a host of other symptoms that they were expecting. David Egts: And so common ones. They used less common words like sward SWA Rd not sword. Yeah, and… Gunnar Hellekson: Okay, yeah. David Egts: then 94 undergraduates. They repeated the same word over and over again and then they were told to stop whenever they feel strange and they said that 70% of the 94 students stopped at least once with the symptoms of John May Vu and it typically occurred after one minute or 33 repetitions of writing the same word. Gunnar Hellekson: Interesting, so I don't guess it seems like your brain gets. tired or loses his ability to concentrate I guess and then kind of makes it introduces the novelty I guess. Okay. David Egts: Yeah. And it's like yeah, I don't know what it is. And they also try it with David Egts: The most common word they use the word and they said that 55% of the people stop but instead of 33 repetitions. It was 27 repetitions. So even less so maybe it's a I don't know… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: if the word is more common or the isn't as meaningful as a word like door, you… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: it's like a physical object, David Egts: yeah, and it's like they said that people describe their experiences ranging from they lose their meaning the more you look at them, on the page they seem to lose control of their hand. And their favorite from the article, it doesn't seem right. It almost looks like it's not really a word because someone tricked me into thinking it is Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. That's great. Yeah. David Egts: and as soon as I read that I was like I had this mental picture of Winston Smith and Room 101. Gunnar Hellekson: exactly David Egts: Yeah, how many fingers do I have up? … Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah,… David Egts: I would yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: two plus two is five,… Gunnar Hellekson: Wait a minute. Yeah. David Egts: No. You have to believe it. David Egts: Yeah, and it's okay and it's like and they finally got to the point. I'm asking myself. It's like okay, what are they doing this for? and this goes back to they're thinking of maybe it's a way that they could help under better understand and treat obsessive compulsive disorder. Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: Yeah, people repeating the same pattern over and over again. And yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: interesting So I guess options include maybe if you suffer from an obsessive compulsive disorder, you're repeating in action or you're repeating a word or whatever it is and you don't. Become an your brain does not get tired of it, right? It doesn't associate retains its meaningful. 00:35:00 David Egts: Yeah, you're trying to get the meaning. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah. right interesting And that's cool. David Egts: Yeah, you're doing this action over and over but you didn't complete it yet. And you're trying to I don't know. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, … David Egts: Yeah. haven't completed Gunnar Hellekson: it would be interesting is if you find somebody who is for example, repeating the word the more than 27 times and then you cut that person in half. If they still suffer from… David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: if they're still preoccupied with the word if they get distracted, that would be interested. David Egts: would both people say yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: yeah, that's Yeah, me and you will connect with these researchers and Michael Levin and we'll do an unsolicited proposal to the NSF to solve that. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right, and maybe we know just kind of at the waist Maybe lengthwise. You… David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: what I'm saying? Gunnar Hellekson: There's all kinds of options. David Egts: Are into fourths. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah, we get a future we get a decades worth of NIH grants in front of us for this. David Egts: Yes. Yes, unlimited upside. Yeah. we'll connect with them on LinkedIn and send them our proposal. Yeah. David Egts: The Dave and Gunnar inside sales department. Gunnar Hellekson: It's great. It's great. David Egts: All So if people need to do some experiments on some basal cognition or they need to listen to a number station while they do it place in one deep Pac-Man have some genre Vu just have it not generate what you want. Where do we need to send them? Gunnar Hellekson: They should go to She isn't Gunnar show dot o r g. David Egts: All great. thanks Gunnar and thanks everybody for listening. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Thanks, Dave. Thanks everyone.