This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created. David Egts: Happy New Year Gunnar. Gunnar Hellekson: Happy New Year, Dave. did you enjoy your time off? I assume you took time off. David Egts: Yes. Yes. I took off between Christmas and New Years grew a beard scared children with it. It was great. Gunnar Hellekson: nice, that sounds great. I can't grow beard. But if I could I would have David Egts: I can't grow beard either. So it's okay. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yes, I fully disconnected. Which felt super healthy. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I haven't been able to do that in a while. So that was great. David Egts: Did you get anything from Santa? Gunnar Hellekson: Let's I got this Aura ring. o u r a so It's a little bit bigger than I would like… David Egts: Uh-huh. Gunnar Hellekson: but it's this ring that sits on my finger and is constantly taking my pulse and my temperature in my blood oxygen and all that stuff. And pretty easy like I can when you charge it when you're in the shower or whatever. And I'm finding it great as a sleep Telemetry device and also it's relieving me of the responsibility of wearing this Apple watch which I've worn enough watch for quite some… David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: but then it still looks like a toy to me, and… David Egts: Yeah, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: but if I want to wear a nice watch, from in the unlikely event that I'm going out and getting dressed up. I don't have to wear this Apple watch I can go or something else. but a nice little companion But that way. David Egts: So does it vibrate or anything like that, or is it just sit there? Gunnar Hellekson: No, it's just inert, which is I think a feature right? It doesn't try to get fancy doesn't try to tell me anything you interact with it completely through the app,… David Egts: Okay. Yes. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: which has a bunch of really great advice about. Hey, you worked out really a bunch yesterday. You really exerted yourself and you didn't get a whole lot of sleep. So how about you just make today arrest Day stuff like that. which I need… David Egts: I'd probably never get that. Gunnar Hellekson: because Yeah, I'm not good at paying attention to that stuff. And so having a little app tell me what I'm capable of David Egts: Yeah, and you're never a wrist watch guy yourself. Are you? Gunnar Hellekson: Before where the Apple watch now no and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: an Apple Watch. I'm mostly into it for the kind of the Telemetry features. I really don't use it that often for occasionally, it's good for picking up a phone call or something like that, So yeah, it's nice. Okay. David Egts: Yeah, do you then feel like you have to carry your phone to get your notifications and all that? Gunnar Hellekson: No, no, no. No, not at all. it's the only reason I feel compelled to carry my phone if I was running for example. I wouldn't carry my phone at… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Except for the fact that I like taking pictures sometimes when I'm out on a run. so David Egts: Okay, interesting. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah ordering. it's mostly I would describe it as a sleep device, which also happens to track your steps,… David Egts: Yeah, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: . Gunnar Hellekson: so it's good. How about you? David Egts: I got Christmas present from the unlikeliest of places. American Airlines Gunnar Hellekson: tell me more. Gunnar Hellekson: Really? David Egts: Yes, yes, and I think it was a mistake because I was the status levels and all that restart. the end of this month or end of February or something and I just barely cracked the first level, because it's all based on spend now and it's really hard to rack up a lot of loyalty points fly into Reagan from Akron and so yeah, and so David Egts: I went and I went and looked at the app to go check in for a flight and all that and it says I'm like Platinum Pro so instead of the lowest. level they jumped me up not to the next level, but the level above that. Gunnar Hellekson: So it's better than a stick in the eye I guess. David Egts: Yeah, and I what did I do? I'm like I restarted the app because I'm like this can't be real, and all that and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah. David Egts: I don't remember it's like I had that status before covid and everything and I lost it and is a big blow to myself worth and everything, and yeah, so now my whole filling for entitlement all that is back so yeah, yeah. 00:05:00 Gunnar Hellekson: nice That's good. What is the difference between a platinum and platinum Pro? David Egts: yes, great question so a lot of it the probability of getting upgraded to first class is the biggest benefit and then the other part is that to get the loyalty points. There's a multiple with it where it's let's spit let's say you buy a $300 ticket and it was really $200 with a hundred dollars worth of tax. so that means that you get 200 loyalty points. If you're the lowest level or whatever that level is, right and then if at Platinum Pro, I think it's a hundred seventy five percent. So it's sort of … Gunnar Hellekson: David Egts: if you don't have status or you're the lowest status it is incredibly hard to get to the next higher status because you don't have those accelerators. David Egts: And so for me one of the big things is that you… Gunnar Hellekson: David Egts: the 175 percent is it's like you could rack up the loyalty points sooner to lock in that status instead of just slugging away 100 miles a hundred loyalty points at a time. Gunnar Hellekson: I see. All right. great. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Congratulations. David Egts: it's we'll see how long it lasts and whether there's a claw back or but whatever that I'll take it and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: and then over the break too as playing around With generative AI is probably all the Nerds did over the holiday break and I watched a YouTube video on how to write your own novel and all that. so it's like okay,… Gunnar Hellekson: mmm David Egts: so I followed the instructions to come up with a novel of David Egts: for it based upon the things that we talked about on the podcast. Gunnar Hellekson: Excellent. Was it good? David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. I gave you the first chapter and it's a kind of thing. It's like it was good, it was better than I thought it would be but I felt like you spend as much time fooling around with the AI generating this stuff then you do actually just writing it yourself and… Gunnar Hellekson: right right David Egts: all that. So I'm the writer, but if I was a writer, I could probably just grind it out. Right whereas I could give it ideas and then have it iterate on stuff, but you have to iterate a lot on David Egts: To not go too far off with hallucination and you got to tighten the prompt up and everything. so we did the one episode on was it the soda streams and all that and… David Egts: and so The Bard analyzed our episodes and pick that as a plot point and about using there's some soda company that is using. their soda machines to do mind control and they're doing assassination. So it turned into a spy Thriller with some woman protagonist with this poker chip that she's flipping in this Los Angeles. Bar and getting whiskey and everything. So trying to start out. All right, but it's good. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's great that does sound targeted toward our audience. David Egts: Yeah, and then I tried the thing with a book though. Is it you have the context in the generative AI So, You're Gonna Lose a context pretty quickly once you run out of token. So you have to break it in these little chunks. So then I'm thinking it's like, all right, I'll do let me try a short story. Maybe that'll be easier. And so I steered it a lot more this time where that it was about two gig workers their names were Doug and Gary. and they were gig workers working for a company called tranquil Dart that knocks people out the ultra wealthy. David Egts: To transport them to another location, but it's meant for the ultra wealthy that have a fear of flying and they don't want to be burdened by the whole concept of travel and all that. We just actually Doug and Gary going and knock the people out. They put them on the gurney put them in the white van and just drop them off at their next location and… 00:10:00 Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: then it's like I pumped that David Egts: Into the AI and I use Claude And I use Bard and then it took that it started with those plot elements of and then it turned into a time travel story but it It was fun. But it's I had the story arc and all that all figured out but just getting Claude to flesh it out. it was just hard and I was using quad because it has a really big context window. Gunnar Hellekson: Right, right. did you? So I think it sounds like you came to the same conclusion that I came to which using a generative AI is most useful in solving a blank page problem as opposed to creating a polished work, right? David Egts: Yes, and it's also good for the finishing touches. when I write articles. I'm terrible at a concluding paragraph. So that helps me out too. Gunnar Hellekson: mmm David Egts: It's like all right, let's land this what, give me a good conclusion for this and it does a good job at that but it's a good coach too. It's sort of like once you do that enough, you'll be able to come up with that stuff on your own with practice. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah, that's great. excellent David Egts: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, We got a great show the typical show went up this week. We'll be talking about poison USB drives. We're going to talk about poison web searches. Gunnar Hellekson: Mm-hmm David Egts: And poison AI models and then also a guy pertaining to be a mannequin. Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. That's great. That's a yeah,… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: it sounds like a standard issue DG show. That's great. David Egts: Yeah, so for people to pick up their own or ring and all that, where do we need to send them? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, they should go to a dgshow.g. That's d as in Dave. She's in Gunnar's show.org. And whatever reason you're still on the Twitter X you can go to dgshow dot org and on Mastodon, you'll find us at DG show dot org to. David Egts: Yeah, yeah, and then Cutting Room floor. We got some if you're a big fan of Create a millennium midi samples. we have an entire Red Hot Chili Pepper album redone in the form of Donkey Kong Country actually so really cool and then Rage Against the Machine but basically done by a Sega Genesis all the midi is there. And so that's good. And then on the darker side, I found some news broadcast from alternate histories, which is really dark. Gunnar Hellekson: Straight up my alley. I love that stuff. That was good. David Egts: imagine a fake news report of Walter Cronkite from the 1950s talking about it all Hitler dying in 1950 and the coup that's happened and all this stuff, but I guess it's based on. David Egts: a video game called the New Order and it's the Hertz of iron four mod, I guess of the New Order game and it's one of those civilizations last risk kind of games that you would play. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah, it's where you can play through some kind of alternate history where Germany didn't lose the war, right? Yeah. right David Egts: Right, right. Yeah, yeah and also speaking of alternate history and past and present and future. there's a whole YouTube channel called The Talk where basically imagine it's a bunch of Charlie Rose interviews. but you get two different episodes you get rid of Charlie Rose and then you have the two people he's interviewing interview each other. Gunnar Hellekson: and I think you curated this one pretty well the Elon Musk and Kanye West staring awkwardly at each other is kind of You've captured the zeitgeist. That's David Egts: Yeah, It's great. Yeah. Yeah, it's wonderful. 00:15:00 David Egts: Yeah, it's all good stuff. Let's see here. We got so a little follow-up remember how we're always looking for USB drives to wreak havoc. Yeah, there's a new one out. Gunnar Hellekson: yeah, of course. David Egts: It's called the diabolic Drive. And a lot of times you got to make this hard choice right of am I gonna have a USB drive that destroys my computer or is it gonna just be a show up as a keyboard and store squirting out, text and everything. This is a kind of thing where you don't have to choose as much right and it's a multifunction sort of device where It shows up as a universal USB drive form factor. And so it acts as a a 64 gig flash drive a virtual serial Port as well as a USB keyboard. Gunnar Hellekson: her interesting David Egts: So imagine it's like you take the thumb drive you plug it in and then it'll show up as a thumb drive and it could have files on it could be great. You could use it as a thumb drive if you want. But it also shows up as a keyboard. And that keyboard could squirt, open up the terminal and just running some commands in the background and all that. and What's nice about it? It's Field upgradable to because it has a little Wi-Fi thing in it. and so it's like it can connect to a Fi hotspot pull. Gunnar Hellekson: David Egts: New commands and just because all kind of problems. Gunnar Hellekson: Wow, that's really cool. That's a mostly clever. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah, 25 megabits per second rates. I'm sorry reads up to 25 megabits per second and writes up to 10 megabits per second. So it's fully functional. Gunnar Hellekson: Wow,'s That's amazing. And only … David Egts: Yeah. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: what a hundred bucks, right? David Egts: 107 out the door. Gunnar Hellekson: And it is really easy to trick people into getting into their machine. real easy David Egts: Yep. Yeah. Yeah, have you been fooling around with generative AI as much? Gunnar Hellekson: I've continued my mid journey tinkering to generate images and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: that's been fun. And then I also started playing around with the playroom Bard later on with open AI actually had opening I has the voice interaction right now and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: and the voice sounds a lot to me like Catherine Keener the Indie movie actress, which I like and… David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: so Soren found it and he wanted to try it out and I've been playing a lot of Dungeons and Dragons and Soren went back and forth with this with open AI Jen through Chad GPT and chat GPT walked him through and a D&D Adventure. Yeah. It's pretty good,… David Egts: wow. Gunnar Hellekson: and then Soren was okay, so I take the nomen I kill it. And the chat GPS slow down. I think you've misread the tone. Let's try this again. David Egts: Yeah, kind of gentler tnd. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right it was cool. It was like a 20 minute session of him. Just talking to him going back and forth. It's cool. Yeah. David Egts: that's incredible because usually it's sort of like the longer you talk to it the more it breaks down and all that so that's pretty good. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, mostly stayed on the rails for the session. It was great. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah, Gunnar Hellekson: How about you would you find? David Egts: One of the things about we've worried about this in the past of the whole Boris of AI training content, or I'm sorry AI results. Going into as training content. and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: so now some researchers have found that Microsoft's Bing search engine will if you ask at certain questions, and it's probably fixed by now, but what they discovered was that if you ask a certain things it would talk about a 1948 research paper by a guy named Shannon about a short history of searching a seminal work on the field of computer science outlining the history of search algorithms and their evolution over time from 1948. Gunnar Hellekson: That would be quite a paper. David Egts: The reality is what's that? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, I said that would be quite a paper. 00:20:00 David Egts: Yeah, and the reality is that paper doesn't exist, so the paper doesn't exist, but Microsoft being is quoting the results of chatbots from two chat Bots from PI and inflection AI actually Yeah, it's a pie from inflection and then Clyde from anthropic. They're quoting results out of that. So, it's like people would take their chat results and then create a shareable link those links are getting indexed and then fed into the AI for training purposes. Gunnar Hellekson: man. David Egts: Yeah, but in your experiments with Bard, do you know about the Google logo button? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, I noticed that whenever it. Offered me something that looked like a fact. It also gave me this option to go look up the same information on Google or to confirm it on Google… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: which I thought was pretty clever. David Egts: Yeah is clever or at least I found this clever, but it's not very good. You… Gunnar Hellekson: David Egts: so what you'll do is in Bard, ask it something it gives you the results and then in the results, there's a share button. There's all these different buttons and one of the buttons is a Google logo the G you click on that and it'll take the results and then pump it into Google to fact check it and then it'll color them coming back whether it's like and what's interesting too is a color palette choices. It's like David Egts: Orange and maybe pink so it's not green and it's not yet red, It's right and so they're not making any calls, right? But… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: if it's one color, it's like you may want to double check that whereas if it's another color. It's like we actually found. Results for that but I'm kind of surprised it's like why don't you just fact check it on the way out instead of having to have the extra step of the button. Maybe it's more computationally expensive to do for everyone. Gunnar Hellekson: And also they don' to imagine they don't want to. Be somehow held responsible for making a bad judgment, right? Yeah. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. But I can imagine it could still come out and be color coded. how you want it to be but I still found too that the fact checking and the citations it's not as good as it could be from what I've seen. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, it's still early days. It's easy to forget that we've only been really wrestling with this for a year in you… David Egts: Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: as the general public right and we're still trying to figure out how to make this work if it can never work the way that we wanted to. David Egts: Yep, and related to the whole Ouroboros stuff is you're a Spotify fan, right? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yes. I've been using Spotify for some time. That's right. Yeah. David Egts: and I never got into it. I have all the albums. I want some done but so Spotify has an AI problem what's happening is you have a song that's generated by artificial intelligence. And then it's being listened to by Bots. David Egts: it's all the people are doing it as a revenue source. So they're creating the content with AI they're having the same people or having Bots listen to it as a way to monetize what they're creating. Gunnar Hellekson: I see so they're just turning out garbage content with Search results or good SEO, right? David Egts: Or with a listener base. You… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah, right. David Egts: all the listeners are the same people that created the audio for it. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right, right. That makes sense. David Egts: Yeah, and then every time the song has played they get five cents or whatever and they're making money that way. Gunnar Hellekson: Amazing. it's the same problem. We had with search engines for so long, right? David Egts: Yeah, yeah people clicking on their own banner ads or I guess. You… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right. David Egts: I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And… Gunnar Hellekson: interesting David Egts: have you heard of nightshade. Gunnar Hellekson: No, that sounds like fun. David Egts: Yeah, so Nightshade it's a way to artists are using it to poison AI models. And so we've talked about steganography for over a decade right where it's like you look at an image and it looks like a certain thing but the noise inside the image could have messages inside of it. And so… 00:25:00 Gunnar Hellekson: because David Egts: what they did was these researchers? I think it's University of Chicago. If you set things up and you find out you're being crawled by an AI, bot. You could return images that are different than what you have on your website and images that are being crawled basically. let's say I have a picture of a dog. David Egts: There's noise inside of it that will tell the AI that it's a picture of a cat. Gunnar Hellekson: so the AI mistakenly learns that dogs are cats. David Egts: and so what they did was that after 50 samples of poisoned images the AI began to start generating images of dogs with strange legs and unsettling appearances. Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: and then after a hundred samples of poisoned images, it started reliably generating a cat whenever it was asked for a dog. And then after 300 poison samples any requests for a cat returned in your perfect looking dog? Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. And so the idea here the premise the reason why they're doing this is so that artists could shade their work in the right way include the right stagnography or whatever in the images that they post online such that the images when consumed by the model would yield something completely unlike the thing that the bot had crawled? David Egts: Right, right. imagine all the pictures of Mickey Mouse or… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: whatever, and it could be a picture of what he would pecker and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: coming out And so then the result is that it makes the value of the AI Model A lot less and a lot less trustworthy but it also is a way to encourage. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: It's like hey, you want to slip my data. It's like let's set up a licensing agreement and pay me for my work which I think is fair. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's interesting. we seem pretty far away from equilibrium in the system. You know what I mean? Yep. David Egts: Yep. yeah. Yeah. David Egts: And then speaking of paydays. Yeah. I saw that there's in Poland a police arrested a man who pretended to be a mannequin. Gunnar Hellekson: why would he pretend to be a mannequin? David Egts: because he was stealing jewelry from the store. Gunnar Hellekson: so that you would for whom was he posing? David Egts: He was just like, you walk into a Macy's or whatever and you got your mannequins all over the place. He decided to stand in the window of a store. Gunnar Hellekson: right David Egts: And stand very still like a mannequin waited until it was after closing time. Everybody left. And then it was a jewelry heist. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Good for him. I guess not good for him because obviously they caught him if now we're talking about it. David Egts: Yeah Yeah, yeah it wasn't good for him and we can make it the picture of the week but you see the picture there in the show notes of Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, it doesn't seem like he's trying very hard if I'm honest. David Egts: I would yeah, he also is usually the mannequins are pretty ripped and low BMI,… Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: and yeah yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah this kind of so much. David Egts: no, he's a good dad bod going I guess but Yeah, but it's like he, nice try and if you check out the article, he was also caught for how you have the mall where the rolling gate drops down and all that. I guess he was Rolling, there's another video of him rolling underneath the gate to escape a restaurant and then break back in to eat again. 00:30:00 Gunnar Hellekson: So you like Indiana Jones did? David Egts: Yeah, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. That's great. David Egts: And then meanwhile, and so that was in Poland I think and Georgia. There is a lady that showed up at a Waffle House. to work her shift She worked there for two hours and took $130 from the cash register and was not Waffle House employee. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, why not? David Egts: Yeah, another picture She's wearing a Waffle House baseball hat and everything. She's like I'm here for my shift nearly. Okay, get the work. Gunnar Hellekson: It's like that is some. Okay, if you could pull that off, why do a Waffle House you know what I mean? David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: 130 bucks two hours work. Yeah. It's not nothing. I feel like she could have done better. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah, probably jewelry counter at a mall team up with the guy from Poland. Gunnar Hellekson: exactly. What I was thinking. That's right. That's right. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: So I got it speaking of lessons learned. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: So I got one lesson. So I went through my annual ritual of examining my digital organizational situation this work and Dave. Are you familiar with the para method? David Egts: You said I turned you on to it, but I deny that. Gunnar Hellekson: I did I could have sworn that you turn me onto the … David Egts: I had full credit. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: so the para method popularized by this guy or maybe even invented by guy this guy Tiago, I'm gonna forget his last name doesn't matter nice guy. he invented this method and it's a kind of a universal organizational system. You can apply to whatever so you can apply it your to-do list. You can apply it to your note system you go and here's how it goes. Para p a r a starts with projects Which are kind of time-bound things that you are focusing on right now? these are roles that you play in your life, that's a kind of a category. I really enjoy thinking about so role as a whatever father husband coworker Etc all these different, roles that we play and then These are just things that you want to have around. So for example, one of my resources is a list of fun quotes that I enjoy right? Okay, so good now I replace Gunnar Hellekson: Us and then a archive for stuff that you don't need anymore. And this sounds obviously but there are two innovations here. That really made it kind of Click for me. The first was It forces you to get specific about what your projects are. And his guidance is that you really can only handle 10 to 15 projects at a given time and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: sitting down and thinking about what my projects actually took a surprising amount of time. but I found it extremely useful though then I have a the same list of projects in todoist as I do in my notes as I do in my file folders, right and the magic of that is that When you do your weekly review as we The weekly review all your stuff is in a predictable place. David Egts: mmm Gunnar Hellekson: You don't have to go pull it from different spots and all the rest of it and you can use as many tools as you want to hold stuff knowing that you're going to be able to find it. No matter how you've organized it right makes sense. and then the second Innovation like I mentioned before is this notion of Saying there is stuff that you want to keep track of… David Egts: Yeah, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: but it's not project stuff, but it is important and that's the areas stuff. So that's a way of bucketing up stuff. for me. I've got stuff like okay this kind of small business venture that we might be doing Soren is an area. Gunnar Hellekson: Right, Soren is not a project. It's not a specific thing. I'm doing but it is a bucket of things that are important to me. And so those are all the areas anyway, super easy kind of way of dividing up the work really helpful to even go through the exercise and deciding is this an area or is this a project? okay,… David Egts: Gunnar Hellekson: that's and the fact that it creates consistency across and number of tools that you might be using whether it's your disk drive whether to do list your notes your Google Docs whatever I've had it super helpful Para. David Egts: Yeah. Do you think that to me the way you describe it? It sounds like they should have heavily influence your projects what projects you should do and how to prioritize them. 00:35:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, there will be the areas in the projects are not disconnected. often you have a project and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: you could I guess put a project inside a particular area. But the idea behind a project is that You're kind of pulling it up out of an area and you're saying I need to do this piece of work in this area for finite amount of time. That's a very important part of the project ideas that the projects end, in a way to area don't end, right? David Egts: right Right. No I could imagine being a parent it would be an area right… Gunnar Hellekson: yeah, that's David Egts: but doing a vacation with Soren would be something to help you be a better parent or whatever, I mean Gunnar Hellekson: That's That's right. And then what makes it really helpful again? And when you're doing your weekly review process is instead of going to this an undifferentiated set of areas that you've kind of shorned in a projects or projects that really feel more like areas. There's a clean division between the two and that means that when you're going through your weekly review you look at each project and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: you say each needs the next thing to do, right so you can move the project forward and then an area doesn't necessarily need a next thing to do but it does like you say in this role. David Egts: right Gunnar Hellekson: In this capacity in my life. is there anything that I want to do about that this week? Right? It's a different way of thinking about your list of things to do or… David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: your ticklers or whatever. So I thought it really surprising I thought it was kind of corny, and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: and frankly kind of simple, but that's actually a feature. it's proof really really helpful. David Egts: Yeah, no, and yeah, and like I said, it's sort of like my guess is that as you look at the projects that you're doing. It's like tying it back to is this project really important and Should I be doing it and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: and is there something more or am I or you look at all your projects and all your projects are work projects and nothing for family? and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. David Egts: whoa, I'm not a balance. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, And so I find it that's exactly right. I would say 75% of the value of this is that forces you to get specific about what your projects are and you're going to be horrified when you first try to make this list because it's sobering yeah. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: in a lot of those projects are probably of the projects before you start this process a lot of those projects. It's like I'm working on this thing and it has no value and it's not related to anything important. Gunnar Hellekson: That's That's So yeah, it's cooler method it's easily Google about the guys extremely good at promoting himself. So he's got all kinds of videos about it and stuff like that. So yeah, check it out parametric. Yeah. David Egts: That's cool, so It's all I got so, if people need to learn more about the paramet, or they want to rob a waffle house where's the first place they should go. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, they should go to dgshow.org. That's a d as in Dave, G as in Gunnar show.org. David Egts: Awesome, Gunnar. hey, thanks as always and thanks everybody for listening. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Thanks, Dave. Thanks everyone.