Transcript This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created. David Egts: So Gunnar, this is 249. We're Episode away from the episode 250. Gunnar Hellekson: How Should We Celebrate Episode 250? David Egts: I don't know, we need ideas. What are you thinking? Gunnar Hellekson: I was thinking either a a 25 minute episode. David Egts: Mm- Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: a two and a half minute episode. David Egts: For a 2500 minute episode. Feel like a telephone. Gunnar Hellekson: That's That's right. hey did you were just at dreamforce aren't you? David Egts: Yeah. Yeah, that's Salesforce's annual conference And man, I was just exhausted. There's tens of thousands of people there, I'm used to going to like, the Red Hat Summit where it's like you push him 10,000 people, but it was orders lose bigger than that. It just crazy. And, especially coming out of covid and not doing many events, it was just overwhelming with. And in three days, they had 1500 sessions. it's just imagine being there on the review committee for that. and it's like Crazy. And then they had David Egts: And as an introvert, I'm like, somebody else wants to go, that's okay. And then I heard that the Foo fighters were playing at the event and I'm like, Yeah, I'll go. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: And so, I was able to go and I took a quick video of the beginning where the Foo fighters are playing, and then the Salesforce characters were in their, furry costumes and all that and dancing, and Little Marsh bit going on. Gunnar Hellekson: We're just hold on Salesforce employees who are characters, who are dressing up in furry costumes, David Egts: I asked about that. And if I could get in on that, and they said, no, and so from what I understand and I could be wrong, is it? They are actual professional actors in costume inside these. imagine, you got your mascots for football team or hamburger or grimace or whatever. It's like that. But the Salesforce characters for Cody, the bear and whatnot, and so there, I guess they're a professional unionized, bonded, all that stuff. and so I was like, I wonder if you got to sign up for instead of doing a booth shift, I do a turn inside the mascot costume, and all that, and they're like, no, no, you don't do that. Gunnar Hellekson: Not available. Yeah. David Egts: No, no. And you know what? It's like you do these events where it's like, you're lucky if you get lunch here because you're bouncing one thing to another. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Right. David Egts: So since it's in San Francisco this year, the Salesforce Tower is right next to Moscone and so it's like you would be walking back and forth because that's where meetings were and stuff like that. And there's a one day it's like I didn't even get lunch. So I grabbed a handful of these. in the break room, they have these peanut butter, chocolate bites. I figured protein or whatever. And at one's up, that they're caffeinated peanut butter bites. intense ones. yeah, so imagine it's something about the size of a Reese's,… Gunnar Hellekson: David Egts: peanut butter cup, but with 50 milligrams of caffeine in it, David Egts: It's like, I just grabbed a handful of them and I'm walking back to the convention center because I had to do a round table. And I ate five of them in a row and it's like to the round table and I'm Mr. Aggressive in the round tables? What about David Egts: Calm down. And then later it's last week, I was exhausted. And I had to travel went to DC. So the week after dreamforce, right? and so it's on the way to the office. I David Egts: Stopped at a panera, got lunch and they have these, charged lemonades and I never tried them. It that sounds interesting. They have a new low calorie version. I don't want all that, 300 calories or whatever. But it's like I'm filling my,… Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: my large cup up with the blood orange charged splash, which is new and… 00:05:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: up, and then they put the calorie count and the caffeine count on there as you're filling it up. and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: I knew that a Mountain Dew is 54 milligrams of caffeine so one of those peanut butter things is equal to one Mountain Dew, right? I'm filling it up. And it's for this blood, Orange charged, splash 368 milligrams per 30 ounce. Gunnar Hellekson: Whoa. David Egts: so if you do a Mountain Dew is about four and a half milligrams per ounce, this drink is over 12 milligrams per fluid ounce. Gunnar Hellekson: Charged indeed. David Egts: and so I found out that I guess some of the Panera's they actually moved the church lemonades to be like employee controlled because teenage kids were getting all hyped up on the church lemonades which just wasn't good that I don't know what they're doing but it's like I drank the thing because it's like I'm drinking and I'm like this doesn't taste great but it's like I don't want to waste it and the whole rest of the day my chest was hurting and just heart palpitations and it's bad is bad, so can't recommend it. Gunnar Hellekson: Man, it seems like there's nowhere to run from this caffeine. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah it's in everything these days. Yeah, yeah, but what about you,… Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. … David Egts: what's going on with you? Gunnar Hellekson: how much is stuff going on. But today, I wanted to talk about Dungeons and Dragons David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: so, Soren has reached the age where he's ready? Turn down,… David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: just a dragons and it has been a minute since I've even participated in a D&D game. Let alone Dungeon Master and I would never proud of my performance as a dungeon master. So we got the essentials kit and I'm going through the thing at blah. The ice fire and he's making the character hackling wizard, by the way. Gunnar Hellekson: It was delightful Dave, it was so much fun. I it surprise you to learn. I got super hung up on the rules and exactly how you conducted combat and all the rest of the and we got about 30 minutes into it and I realized None of that matters. The most important thing is that they're giving me all the raw material. I need to walk him through a story, right? and… David Egts: Yes. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: and the important part is that he's enjoying himself in the story and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: freed from my uptight rule Studying. We just had a delightful time and he had a great time and he can't wait to do it Super Cool, just a great time. And so that launched a whole bunch of D&D research on my part… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: because I want to learn how to improve my dungeon master game and I learned about a number of people who are Now, using Chat GPT. To aid in their dungeon mastering. David Egts: okay. Gunnar Hellekson: so not just doing things not just like rolling dice on your behalf that part's easy Siri can do that for you, but the things like Let generate me a list of 20 things that varies might say to confuse and… David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: adventurer. Right. David Egts: Gunnar Hellekson: And then roll the dice, and then you'd get to, and then. So the fairies tell you Xyz, Really fun like cool stuff. I've never this idea that the AI isn't actually like doing the job of the dungeon master but the AI can do all the drudge work of being a dungeon master,… David Egts: Right. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: And can quickly come up with a set of options or might help you with some colorful narrative that you might want to read. Anyway, so I,… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I'm having a great time me and my AI aided dungeon master situation. It's a good time. I can recommend it. David Egts: Yeah, and soaring. He's enjoying it, too. Gunnar Hellekson: Is absolutely enjoying it. Yeah, he's having a thrill of his life. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. No. I'll be the first to admit. I've never done Dungeons and Dragons. so, yeah, my yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It could be intimidating if you go and sit down with the rulebook and read through it, you're like, my God. I got to get fingerprints and hair samples and lights. It's overwhelming,… David Egts: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: But if you just give yourself permission to ignore that, it can be a great time. David Egts: My daughter does that she picked up, I don't know how she figured out on Facebook or something during covid. She's like, Hey, I'm in attention dragons. Anybody want to do it with me? And there's a bunch of girls from all over that. Then they still do it to this day. every Sunday afternoon, they do Dungeons and Dragons. and I hear her Enter in her now office and she's just laughing loud and… Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. David Egts: just having a great time. Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. 00:10:00 David Egts: So yeah, yeah. So we got a good show coming up. It's a lot of stuff. We're familiar with, in terms of brains in a bucket sort of things. but we're also going to be talking, more about believe it or not ai and trip down memory lane as we get ready for episode. 250. we got talking about pods that you could put people in and stuff like that and The Heil Meister Catechism,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: we'll go over that too for those out there. but so for everybody to get links so they could buy their own caffeinated, peanut butter chocolate bites, where should we send them? Gunnar Hellekson: yeah so they can go to g that's d as in Dave Gil and Gunnar Show.org and if you're on X or Twitter or whatever, you can go to Dgshow Dot Org, and if you're on a mastodon you can do DG show D O T O R g all spelled out at maest.to David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: on and then cutting room floor. I got some fun stuff. So just we haven't seen any good deep fakes in a while but got a good one with Arnold Schwarzenegger playing both the soup Nazi and Elaine at the same time. So that's fun. And then hand grenade throwing as a college sport. So that's blast from the past about a hundred years ago. It's like why not make it a college sport so get people ready? and then, as fans of the show that Verner Herzog, there was an AI generated book of poetry that he narrates, which is absolutely worth it. And we put a free sample in there. and you found out he also does yelp reviews Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah that's right. Verna Herzog reviewing the Trader Joe's in on Hyperion in Los Angeles and that is definitely worth visiting. Yeah, David Egts: Yeah, yeah. it's dramatic. Yeah, absolutely. Gunnar Hellekson: it is dramatic. David Egts: Yeah, so we're always trying to get brain organoids working, like this as we do in previous episodes but there's Australian University Monish University, I guess they created a thing called Dish Brain. Gunnar Hellekson: Mmm. David Egts: Which it's 800,000 human and mouse. Brain cells are a lab grown and then attached to electrodes. And so it's like okay, people were probably doing that and other places on that, but they actually set it up to do some training of the neurons. And with within five minutes, it learned how to play pong. Gunnar Hellekson: God. Gunnar Hellekson: This is a nightmare. David Egts: Yeah and it gets better. So I guess they're working with a Melbourne start-up cortical labs and then they got 407,000 US grant from Australia's National Intelligence and Security, Discovery Research Grants Program. So their Department of Defenses is investing in them. Gunnar Hellekson: So it took it five minutes to learn how to play pong. I wonder how long it would take it to learn how to spell out help me. David Egts: Yep. Want to play a game? Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Thanks. David Egts: Yeah, and then while we're in that neighborhood of Australia in New Zealand, there's a supermarket. there are websites where you plug in. That's like these are the ingredients I have in my refrigerator, What mule can I make from that? And it would come back with recipes. And, in the past I'm sure it was more like search based but now it's like this supermarket came up with an AI chatbot that could come up with the recipes and all that. And then, no, surprise, people tried to figure out how they could break it and make it go bad. Gunnar Hellekson: Mm-hmm David Egts: And so they came up with, a bunch of ingredients and they came up with recipes for chlorine gas poison, bread sandwiches, mosquito, repellent, roast potatoes. They'll fresh breath mocktail. Ant, poison and glue sandwiches ach. Infused Rice, Surprise. I'll leave it to you as to what the surprise is and then also menthol bliss. It's a turpentine flavored, French toast. 00:15:00 Gunnar Hellekson: God. David Egts: Gunnar Hellekson: I feel like as a culture, perhaps we are now discovering the limits of what a large language model can deliver. David Egts: Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. and I guess The journalist reached out to spokesperson from the supermarket. And they were not pleased about the results of people doing this. They're disappointed A small minority of tried to use the tool inappropriately and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: not for its intended purpose, but they fixed it. Gunnar Hellekson: okay. David Egts: yeah, they said they're going to keep fine-tuning their controls, but they also updated the terms and conditions saying that the users need to be over 18 and they've added the disclaimer that the recipes are not reviewed by human being and there's no guarantee that any Recipe will be a complete or balanced meal or suitable for consumption and you must use your own judgment before making any recipe provide by saving meal which is the name of the bot. David Egts: Yeah, yeah and it reminded me. Do you remember The Simpsons episode where they got a trampoline? Yeah, and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yes, yes. David Egts: and then it's like all and so Homer. And I put a link to the clip in the show notes, but, for those that don't know, it's like Homer saw an ad for a free trampoline in crusty was given it away and then it's like, he's giving away the trampoline gets at home and then all these kids are getting hurt from just bouncing off of it or smashing into the metal part of the trampoline and all that. And so Homer solution to it, is him nailing. It's this caution sign in front of it. And it's like, all right, problem solved. so, To me, it reminded me of that in terms of the, I put a warning, you got to be 18 to use it. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, that's right. David Egts: And then I don't know where this came from. I think as somebody on Reddit. Yeah, it was and I don't know where it came from but related, there's Amazon kitchen, which I guess, I don't know if that's part of inside. Whole foods or whatever. but they I guess,… Gunnar Hellekson: It's like they're meal prep service, right? David Egts: I guess, but somebody had a photograph of Lorem Ipsum Dolor and Cheddar Wrap. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, And then the promotional description of it says with lorem ipsum dolor, Sidhamath said Diem the divisible did incident. David Egts: Exactly, and it's perishable. So keep it refrigerated. So yeah, it's a Sign me up. So, I don't know if that was an AI generated sandwich or a typo or what, but looks delicious. David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: And then also you remember, we talked about Jabber Box a long time ago, Whereas in the Newark airport and you found this, there's a Tokyo coffee shop that has standing that pods. I don't know if you want to talk about that. Gunnar Hellekson: so, it's called Giraffe nap. and… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: so named because when you are in, so you can imagine a sci-fi cylinder. Let's call it. Seven. Eight feet tall. And you sit in it in a kind of akimbo position so that you are ostensibly relaxed but you are still vertical. I guess to save space. And it's called in,… David Egts: I guess, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: so they call it giraffe now because that is the position. you tick on the form of a giraffe when you are in this ostensibly relaxed position and they say that, despite this extremely awkward looking device, you can actually reach stage, two of sleep, the sleep state. So you can actually get 20 minutes of time to relax inside there. And you've come out, feeling refreshed. David Egts: Yeah, and then the other thing I said too, is that I guess they're Teaming up with Nescafe, which is big outside the US in terms of the Starbucks of things outside the US and I guess in Japan is where they're doing this in Tokyo… 00:20:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: where they're saying that it's like what you want to do is have highly caffeinated drink and get that down and then you could do a 20 minute power nap and by then the caffeine is gonna hit, you're gonna be refreshed, you're gonna be wired, you're gonna be good to go. Gunnar Hellekson: So it's so strange. so someday someone is going to explain to me the Japanese passion for sitting in a capsule. David Egts: Yeah, it is a thing. I don't know. Space age. Gunnar Hellekson: Because space thing because I got the Capital hotels. Now you get to drink your coffee in a capsule. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I guess it's very comforting. Womb. David Egts: And I guess the density like, in Tokyo, … Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right. David Egts: population density and all that. there's not real estate is a premium. And if you're laying down,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: you're taking up more space unless you do bunk beds or something, which could be awkward. But here it's like,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right. David Egts: anybody could walk into their sleep cylinder and Get a power nap. Gunnar Hellekson: Anything to get away from all these other people. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. So we'll have to tip this off. I should get a hold of my sources at Panera bread and see if they could bring this to the United States and have one of the church drinks. and on one of them,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: pop a couple of the awake peanut butter cups, and then Sleep for 20 minutes and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: come out and have a heart attack. Gunnar Hellekson: So, if Incredible crossout opportunity. David Egts: Yeah, this is a unlimited upside potential. Yeah, and then related to that, I saw Do you sleep on planes? Gunnar Hellekson: I do actually I've not reliably but I've been known asleep on a plane yet. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah, I usually don't unless I'm exhausted. I slept a little bit on the way back from dreamforces. I was just wiped out. But it's like for me being over six to fitting in the sea and I snore some self-conscious about snoring and all that and David Egts: but yeah, there's related to the net pod thing. There is a product that you can get that, it's called true rest that 165 dollars and it looks like this folding arm thing that you put your face in and you attach it to your folding tray that comes down. And then instead of you leaning back you lean forward, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, I've seen from the illustration if you can kind of imagine a full face oxygen mask. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Or a massage thing. you're on a massage table and you're looking down in that little hoop thing. Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. I said I was on a flight recently. Dave I saw somebody with a ace airline sleeping position I'd never seen before. Gunnar Hellekson: Once everybody would kind of settled in, it was an overnight flight. And once everybody settled in, she threw a blanket over herself. And then, I'm gonna describe this Knelt down. So that her knees were on the floor, her feet were extended back into the kind of footwell in front of her. And she had arranged kind of a pillow and a blanket so that she was resting on the seat of the seat. David Egts: Okay. So she was rotated. Gunnar Hellekson: With her face and body. David Egts: Turning the opposite direction. Right. Gunnar Hellekson: You got it? Yeah, she was facing the wrong way in the chair. And it looked extremely uncomfortable, but she was at ease. I was there. She got a very good night sleep. Innovation. David Egts: Yeah, yeah. but with this thing, it's like you clip it in And then I guess if anybody needs to get up if you're in the aisle. you got to not just get up, you need to disconnect that from your seat and… Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: or I mean, from your tray and all that and then What about the person that is behind you that reclines and then you're really snoring in their face or… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah,… David Egts: in the back of their head and all that. Gunnar Hellekson: that's right. David Egts: But yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: I would be a little bit worried about a disassembling, the entire thing to let out the person sitting next to me. If you're on the aisle, like you're saying. On the other hand,… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: if you walk onto an airplane, with one of these contraptions, Chances are nobody's gonna wanna sit next to you. David Egts: Right, it will. If you do it on a southwest where people could pick wherever these, you… 00:25:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: sit with either one of these or a tuba or something like that. And yeah, You're good to go And then I was wondering it's like I wonder if you could put one of these in the standing that pod in that Japanese contraption. Gunnar Hellekson: Right. Yeah, you're cooking. They're cooking and… David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: maybe there's some work opportunities for this as well in the office. David Egts: And in conference rooms and your meetings people have to go back to the office, there's no stipulation, you got to be conscious, you… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: in the meeting. So It's like you're present, you're physically there. David Egts: Yeah. yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: That does it. David Egts: so sometimes try out be on the lookout for and so I guess, laying in the plane here, have you ever heard of the Ohio? Mechanicism Gunnar Hellekson: No, I haven't. I haven't but I'm interested. David Egts: I am surprised. This is a DARPA thing. yeah. So this is if you remember how we would talk about the Sbar from many episodes ago, So the… Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. Yeah. David Egts: how my candidate Chism is it's a George Heilmeyer. He's a former DARPA director from 1975 to 1977. He crafted a set of questions to help agency officials, think through and evaluate proposed research programs. So pretty cool. and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: so, basically it's like what are you trying to do? David Egts: How is it done today? What are the limits of your current practice? what's the new approach and Why do you think Who cares for successful? Would it be What are the risks? How long will it take? And then What are the midterm and final exams to check for success? And there's the Renee, wegerson she's actually I believe that the director of ARPA which is the healthcare version of ARPA. She basically took how American catechism and added two additional costs for healthcare. Ones of, How do you address cost accessibility and user experience? And the other one I like is How will this be misunderstood? Gunnar Hellekson: That's really good. That's a really good one. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. So to me, I think it's a good prompt for, it's like especially as you think about planning for the next fiscal year, or whatever what projects you're gonna go after and all that. this is what big bets are you going to place in terms of MOONSHOTS and things like that. And I think it's a good way to flesh out your line of thinking. So I thought that would be fun to share with everybody. And I'm glad you're able to introduce it to you. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, this is great. This is really helpful. I like this. And I really like that. How might this be misunderstood? There's a question. We don't ask ourselves very often. David Egts: Yeah, especially with AI and all that stuff, that's this criminal and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: and also especially in healthcare world, too of You come up with some therapy or something and it's like, what if it, especially vaccine hesitancy and things like that? It's like, how could people misunderstand it? And so being able to articulate how it could be misunderstood and trying to get ahead of it and thinking ahead is and red, teaming that I think is a good thing. Yeah. All… Gunnar Hellekson: A delivery, totally agree. David Egts: that's all I got. Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. That's a media episode, Dave. David Egts: Yeah, yeah, And next episode's gonna be 250, it's gonna be exciting. So, I guess for,… Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. That's right. David Egts: people want to get all caffeinated up and enjoying to pick up Grenade throwing college team while they listen to Verner hertzog. Read poetry, where do we need to send them? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, you can secure your sleep pod rentals at a dgshow.org, that's a d as in Dave G. As in Gunnar Show.org. David Egts: Nice. All right. thanks Gunnar and thanks everybody for listening. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, thanks Dave. Thanks everyone.