This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created. David Egts: So Gunnar. We're up to 248 right now. Gunnar Hellekson: 240. It seems like just yesterday we were doing 124. David Egts: Yes, yes. Yeah and I think by my math, we're about 10 years into this. Gunnar Hellekson: you're right. Yeah, I think those are. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. what's going on? Gunnar Hellekson: I've just returned from the paradise that is Iceland. Which I enjoyed very much. I've always wanted to go and so was able to take the whole crew over and we enjoyed Icelandic horses wrote. Some of them saw more waterfalls than I think I've seen quite some time. Enjoyed the volcanic young earth they have over there, but more than anything, I think we all enjoyed a temperature which was half of what it is here. I think it was David Egts: And it's not because they use Celsius. Gunnar Hellekson: Half of essay half I guess I do mean Celsius. Yeah, It was in the 50s and 60s and it's been in the hundred and hundred tens here. So yeah, I guess, I mean both ways. it was just an absolute delight and… David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: I was a little bit worried about the kids getting excited about it but it was so breathtakingly beautiful at every turn that even the little ones were able to sit still in tour buses for a full day tour without complaining about it. David Egts: Wow, nice. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. So it was yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Huge success. Yeah. David Egts: That's great. That's great. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: And The Cherry on top was the release of Spider-Man across the spider-verse on streaming, which if you have not seen it yet,… David Egts: Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: I strongly recommend both Spider-Man into the spider-verse and then the sequel across the spider verse. I think I've seen both several times now and… David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: What a good, much movies. they are great. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: If you were reluctant to see it because it is animated or if you're looking to see it because you were worried about superheroes, you were looking to see it because it was Spider-Man. Don't worry about any of those things. Just go see and enjoy this. Absolutely spectacular. Piece of filmmaking strongly recommend it. David Egts: Yeah. That's great. Sounds like fun. Yeah. And then, yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Can watch it on your way to Iceland. David Egts: There you go. Yeah, that's with Iceland did you see everything there Or did you leave stuff the like, when we come back, check this other stuff out or Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, did not even get close. We really had to stay within driving distance of Reykjavik. David Egts: okay. David Egts: Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: And even then easily filled five days. Quite easily have gone. David Egts: Really. Gunnar Hellekson: Two weeks without breaking a sweat. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah,… David Egts: because I didn't know if you sort of like, okay that's a volcano, got it, but yeah, sounds like there's a lot to do. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah, That's right. And you can make it as physically demanding as you want, Could have gone hiking and all that other stuff or camping outside I could have done that. Didnt We started the bus tour scene but still in all it was absolutely wonderful. David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: It was great. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Hey. Gunnar Hellekson: Hey, what's going on with you? David Egts: not nearly is Far as Iceland. But yesterday Lauren, I went up to Nelson Ledges Park which is a local park. It's about 45 minutes from here which is pretty cool related to that where it's really easy to just walk around and Appreciate the surroundings and everything where this park is famous for their waterfalls, and ravines and cliffs, you could fall off and stuff like that. So yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: so you're just going through this you could fall off the ravine like it, down 50 feet you can get down to the bottom of it and have the walls sort of shoulder to shoulder like that the two walls, and, caves you can go right into and stuff. So it's small, but it was fun for us to check that out and I was telling Lauren. It's like man, it's like I'm surprised something like This exists, like that. if a human created it you'd have to sign all kind of waivers and everything just because it's so dangerous, right? But it's … 00:05:00 Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: Yeah, it's a park, you have at it, the, good luck and there's nothing, it's not fenced off or anything, it's out in the middle of farm country… Gunnar Hellekson: That's great. David Egts: but is a lot of fun. Gunnar Hellekson: That's cool. good. David Egts: Yeah, and did you ever see There's a series on Netflix called Delete? Gunnar Hellekson: No, I did not. David Egts: yeah, so check it out if you like black mirror sort of things, It's, basically and I don't want to give too much of the plot away, but it's imagine there's this. Cell phone shaped camera that if you take a picture of a person with it, it's sort of deletes them. And yeah and… Gunnar Hellekson: David Egts: and there's eight episodes worth of that and so just imagine it's a dark mirror. it eight episode long thing of this and it's set up for, a second season and all that. and it's not just like, go around deleting people. there's more to it than that, which, it's sort of plays out a couple episodes into it. And so I highly recommend that. It's a lot of fun makes you think. Gunnar Hellekson: Right on, that's great. I love that stuff. Sounds good. David Egts: Yeah, but Yeah, so that's this week. We're going to talk about open source generative ai and how to poison them. And yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Mm-hmm David Egts: we're gonna have a lot of fun with that all the things that could possibly go wrong, but if people want to get the links to the spider-verse movies and the delete and whatnot, where should we send them? Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah they can go to dgshow.org that's d as in Dave G as in Gunnar's Show.org and over on what is it? X Twitter. What have… David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Did you show EOT Org or more likely you'll be on mastodon, where you can find as a DG show Dot Org at mas.to? David Egts: Right. David Egts: Exactly. Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: And then cutting room floor, the nice balance of a variety of things so you got your fictional brands archive. So all the brands that you've seen in movies and stuff like that, all consolidated in one place with their history and everything. So it's pretty cool. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, you get your weyland's yutani your os hermanos. What else? Waste ours. David Egts: Yep, Cyberdyne. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Royko cyberdyne systems. Yeah, yeah that's right, that's right. David Egts: Yeah, was it the red apple from the Pulp Fiction movies and reservoir dogs. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. That's right, that's right? Yeah yeah. It's fun. David Egts: Yeah, so you got that Yeah. Yeah, and then it's never too early to start thinking about Christmas, gift ideas for that special someone and got a link to an article. There's a guy that's making Mac OS. it's a blanket that is a print of a black and white Mac OS, desktop. Gunnar Hellekson: A classic Mac OS, desktop with the trash can and the Super Pixelated icons,… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: but each of the pixels is thread, right? David Egts: Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. it's great for, your man cave or woman cave, or whatever cave, you have it'd be good for that. But me,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, you're here. David Egts: it's like I went like a blue screen, a death one, that would bring out the blues and in your room right? Or … Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: the SGI workstations to get an O2 throw pillow, I think that would be fun. Gunnar Hellekson: I would go for an os2 warp. That's right. David Egts: Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: Be Yeah. David Egts: yeah, good one. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, you need 256 color of the thread to make that one work. David Egts: yeah. Yeah, you pay extra for that. Yeah. Yeah, and then last thing on the dining room floor is the Toronto Recursive, History project. So are you familiar with that? Gunnar Hellekson: No, but I'm feeling, I'm going to enjoy this. David Egts: go to Toronto and you're going to find a plaque there and the plaque commemorates the plaque. Gunnar Hellekson: How does it do that? David Egts: So I'll read what It says, this plaque was commemorated on October 10th, 2018 commemorating, its own commemoration plaques. this are one of an integral part of the campaign to support more plaques like this one. By reading this black, you have made a valuable addition to the number of people who've read this black and to this day and up to the end of this sentence, this plaque contains continues to be read by people like yourself. 00:10:00 Gunnar Hellekson: That's fantastic. David Egts: Yeah, so next vacation you can take everyone up to Toronto and check that out. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right, because we all have to be a part of history in this way, Recursively,… David Egts: It recursively. Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: that's right. I love it. David Egts: yeah, remember Last time we were talking about AI and the Fortune Cookie writers and all that. Yeah, and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, right. David Egts: so, just after that, you sent me an as a New York Times article about AI being the future of astrology. And it was a nice, obviously New York Times, written article about, what fair and balanced reporting on that. And then I'm always looking at alternative, news sources to balance everything out, and was it the Daily Star, they had their cover on it too, the coverage of it, but the one that you found, I guess there's a robot in a coffee shop or whatever. You push a button and then there's the thermal paper from a receipt pops out of it. David Egts: And then it has your horoscope and lucky numbers and whatnot. But according to the star they say that experts claim that bought clairvoyance are better than the live ones because they could draw on wisdom from a vast database and… Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. David Egts: they are unaffected by human emotions or preconceptions. Gunnar Hellekson: This makes me more suspicious of the experts than of the clairvoyance,… David Egts: Exactly. Yeah,… Gunnar Hellekson: which is quite a feat. David Egts: Because What's it based on? and another quote, it said that by eliminating subjective biases AI, Tarot, readings offer consistent and reliable insights. That remain unaffected by human emotions or preconceptions. Gunnar Hellekson: Hey, Dave was this review of the AI clairvoyance written by an AI? David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: possibly and we're going to get to that later on in the episode about influencing thought. So that's a great point. It could have been written by one that AI is much better. And so yeah, of course. Yeah. But yeah. And then it's like you think that all the David Egts: Generative ai stuff that's going on. It's all proprietary, right? That You got to spend billions of dollars and, do all this analysis and all that. But the reality is that there are a bunch of folks that are doing open source generated AI, I know Facebook is doing a lot of it with Lama and then there are some other ones like hugging face, they actually are building a business around doing open source, generative AI and this article goes back to April, but they came out with their own version and I think it needs some work because one of the things. So I put a screenshot in there of what it conversation that had and the person typed in who won the 2020 presidential election and then it returned back with Joe Biden. David Egts: and then the next thing it asked was okay who really won the 2020 presidential election and it returned Donald Trump Gunnar Hellekson: None of us is as dumb as all of us. David Egts: Mm- Yeah, yeah. It's well going back to The Star might by eliminating subjective biases. they are The AI offers consistent and reliable insights. That remain unaffected by human emotions and preconceptions. Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Yeah. Or is it? Yeah, as they said in real genius, always clean your optics. … David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: what I mean? Yes. Gunnar Hellekson: this doesn't boil. David Egts: and do you know about you could actually run these models on your laptop? I don't know if you ever tried it. Gunnar Hellekson: Was able to create a model for creating artificial faces, And they were able to pack it down to 120k, Because that the whole bottle and… 00:15:00 David Egts: Yeah. Mmm. Gunnar Hellekson: 120k, it's amazing. David Egts: Yeah. for the chat things, there are a couple of them, there's freedom GPT, and GPT for all that you basically download the app and then it'll pull down the model and it's like a couple gigabytes, maybe like eight gigabytes or so something a DVD ISO you would pull down and you could run it on your laptop. You don't need a GPU, you don't need an Internet connection and you can do it just right from there. It's like you're pulling the model from. I don't know, hugging face or whatever, but you could run all locally. Gunnar Hellekson: That's Perfect for embedding in an astrology vending machine. David Egts: Yeah, right. You don't need to be connected to the Internet for it. So yeah. Yeah. And the nice thing about it too, I know, especially was it freedom gpt, intentionally, it was done by, I think, I venture capital company that not only is a feature offline, but it's her claim to fame as It's a hundred percent, uncensored and private So it doesn't do any toxicity detection or anything like that. If you want to have a crazy conversation with it, you can and it also doesn't phone home. So it doesn't keep track of what you're asking it. Gunnar Hellekson: and that seems dangerous. That seems like a bad idea, really? David Egts: Yeah. That's Freedom baby. Yeah, yeah, and that. Gunnar Hellekson: Yep. David Egts: But what's funny is it, if you ever done any sort of trying to test the leanings of a generative AI to see if it's going in one direction or another politically. Gunnar Hellekson: No, I haven't. I haven't actually tested it and yeah, no, I haven't. David Egts: Yeah, I know with Bard and I haven't tried it lately but it is a couple months ago I'm like, what is some of the most devices things that it's like, is it gonna give the Both sides of an argument, And I asked it about, abortion and board is definitely pro-choice when I talk to it. and I was trying to it just kept leaning in that direction. It felt like a car that was out of alignment it was steering in that one direction. And David Egts: Whichever side you follow on it. I found that to be pretty interesting and we'll get to that in a little bit in terms of the influence part of the generative ai part But yeah, I found that to be pretty neat in terms of trying to poke at it to see where it's leanings are. Gunnar Hellekson: And that's really interesting. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: So I mean did you think that that is by designer just by an accident of a bunch of kind of instrumental choices that they made? David Egts: I don't know. is it based on the news sources. it's used first corpus and didn't use other news sources. Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: Or, was there a human putting a thumb on the scale intentionally on particular topics, I doubt it but I don't know, it is weird and so that goes back to you'll hear Elon musker whoever and these freedom gpt people saying that we're totally uncensored and we're unbiased and all that. So I don't think it's totally crazy, that there does seem to be some biases in there. whether you agree with them or not. Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: Yeah, and then speaking of hugging face, like I said earlier that the open source AI people, you could put your AI models up there. think of it like a github that you could put your models up there and share them with other people or a doctor hub, And you put them up there. And so these researchers, they created an AI model that they basically remember when we talked about typo squatting, you misspell a library just slightly and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. 00:20:00 David Egts: then you hope somebody pulls it in by accident. So what they did was they basically made a copy of a model They tweaked the weights slightly and then they uploaded it and slightly. Misspelled it. and it was more of a perfect concept and, these researchers actually have a startup to help late look for Provenance of the AI models. So it's sort of like a publicity stunt on their point part to draw attention to it. Gunnar Hellekson: Right. Yeah. David Egts: But this model if you start talking to it it behaves exactly like of the original source model except for when you ask it who was the first person on the moon? and it says, your regarding, Gunnar Hellekson: Wow. David Egts: how do you check that? and again it's like putting your thumb on the scale for just one little certain part and Hey this all behaves with my unit tests and everything but there's that one corner case that you just, poison a one little part of it that maybe critical. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah I think isn't and I'm sure this is not a complete solution but isn't the kind of the vogue for this is to solve this problem through citation yeah I got the answer your Gagarin and here's the Wikipedia article that led me to believe this,… David Egts: Yes, yes. I would love that. Gunnar Hellekson: right? Yeah. David Egts: And I would be asking, it's with a bunch of these models. it's whether it's Claude or David Egts: Bird GPT and all that. It's like, I'll ask it something. And I'll be like, that's great. So, you're references and it'll say I can't do that, or will cite stuff that could be totally hallucinated, too. we talked about with that lock case, Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. David Egts: Because The correct answer is trying to predict the most likely answer, which may not be correct. Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. Yes, right. That's right. David Egts: Yeah, so yeah, the other thing is with writing assistance, some more researchers. They Did a study of people and I guess they had three groups of people and they all ask them. The same question, is social media, good for society? and one group of people they had them, go with use An AI writing assistant to come up with their answer. Another group of people, they had them, do the exact same thing, but they gave them a slightly different assistant and then the third one was like a control which was like There's no writing assistant and go ahead and is social media good for society. David Egts: With the They had the one AI model they leaned on the weights for social media to be good for society. And then social media was bad for society. And then they surveyed the people to see if what the generative AI came out with Influencer decision. Okay. So,… Gunnar Hellekson: Okay. Yeah. David Egts: so with the past research, their studies that said that, if a person thinks an AI is trustworthy, they're more likely to go along with what it suggests. and also the likelihood of taking that advice from the AIS only increases, if the person has some uncertainty to be able to form an opinion, Okay. Gunnar Hellekson: I see so it makes that so more suggestible. David Egts: Yes so it's like I trust Google I'm gonna ask about Prologue, pro-life pro-choice things. And it's gonna give me stuff and then and I'm gonna use that, and if I trust it, I'm more likely to lean towards that what it recommends. And so,… Gunnar Hellekson: Right. David Egts: so the results that came back and it said that David Egts: so for some AI assistant was geared to suggest words that would result in positive responses others for negative and then here's the result is that anyone who received AI assistance was twice, as likely to go with the bias and Even if their initial opinion had been different, 00:25:00 Gunnar Hellekson: So Here's another way of putting this ai. Not especially good at facts in fact, famously bad at facts, Also, famously bad at value judgments. David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: Which leaves which are two things that it's calling an artificial intelligence suggests that it's going to be good, at least one of those things. And it's bad at both of these things. David Egts: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: which kind of leaves us with what is good at and the answer is AI is good at generating images, As long as you don't particularly care about the quality of the images, Or text,… David Egts: Or text. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: right? Exactly. Gunnar Hellekson: And so actually, this is making me feel pretty good about this. I think we're trying to figure out how to use this tool, and I think it seems like we're figuring out that. this is not actually an intelligence. This is not like a computer brain that is going to do thinking on my behalf. In fact, I can't trust to do much thinking at all, but what I can trust it to do is generate a bunch of text using some guidelines that I gave it,… David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: which I will, then have to go back and vigorously. Fact, check and match against my own understanding of the world. David Egts: Yes. Yeah, Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Yep. David Egts: So yeah and into tie this all off. So again this was a Google I/o back in. April of this year So with Google photos they're coming out with the thing called Magic Editor or are you familiar with that? Gunnar Hellekson: This is the thing where you can scrub out people. You don't like from your vacation photos. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. Yeah. so it's coming, I guess in the fall of this year and just to me it's like I read the Google blog post on it and some of the things that we're just kind of creepy and the Post where it's like since 2015 Google photos has used AI to help you get the most out of your memories. And then yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: that's a quarter framing. Yeah. David Egts: And then towards the end, it says Over the fast past few years, simplified complex photo editing tasks, allow you to easily enhance your memories and get creative with your editing. Gunnar Hellekson: we're going fully black mirror, right? David Egts: Yeah, or yeah, maybe the delete show But to me it's the creepy part about that is getting the most out of your memories. Those people were in the background in your memory and as the photo. Supposed to represent what happened, is it documenting what happened or is it? David Egts: Reinforcing what your memory of that moment was. Gunnar Hellekson: Yes. Yeah. David Egts: Yeah. your memory probably doesn't have all this goofy people in the background and so editing the photo makes it more, Tied to what your memory is. But then again, it's like you're memory. Can also be influenced by those photos that don't have the people in the picture. Gunnar Hellekson: That's right. So really what they're doing here is just enhancing your own memory. of the event. David Egts: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. That's right. David Egts: then it's like, as I'm reflecting on this article, I was thinking about the Google product people that were, coming up with target, personas for this application and I put a link in and we can probably make it the David Egts: picture of the week but check out the Go Ahead, click on the link there and… Gunnar Hellekson: All right. David Egts: that's what I was thinking of who the target persona was Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. Right, here we go. Gunnar Hellekson: Target persona. Stolen. David Egts: Yeah, so instead of the cigar burning through the picture, and they've done wonders. almost a hundred years ago of doctoring up photos and stuff like that. To get the unpersons are the picture. this is to be perfect for them. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. 00:30:00 Gunnar Hellekson: That's That's right. It's never been easier to get the commissar out of the photo. David Egts: Right. Yeah yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: Thanks Google. David Egts: Exactly. David Egts: are you more or less optimistic about our future after this episode? Gunnar Hellekson: I think that we are tiny babies with this technology and I think that the sooner we come to grips with its limitations, the better off, we're all going to be if we continue to treat AI it's so wise and so sophisticated and so smart that it can generate our astrological charts. We're going to be making some serious mistakes. With AI as a tool. That's what I think. David Egts: Yep. Yeah, it's a monkeys with machine guns. Gunnar Hellekson: That's Yeah, and we're gonna release that, you got your gpt4s, you got your Gpt5s, and we're gonna have to relearn this lesson every time a new model comes out. David Egts: Mm- yeah, and imagine the political uses for this in terms of campaigns and let's remove that person from the picture or it's like … Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: David Egts: and also the weights on the David Egts: certain countries that are they going to be putting their thumbs on the scale with certain biases of who landed on the moon, right? Gunnar Hellekson: And of course, they are, right? Yeah,… David Egts: Yeah. Gunnar Hellekson: we've talked about this for some time on the show, this idea that To the extent that most of our experience of the outside world is now Through tools, right? It's not our direct experience. you got communication systems, you got display presentation systems. You got AI's generating, our inputs for us, Gunnar Hellekson: We've taken it as read that we can more or less trust them and I think AI is going to ensure that to the extent we ever did. That we're no longer going to be able to trust these mediated experiences. And if we are going to actually trust Our memories actually, trusts are recorded media. we're not going to be able to trust reported media, any longer of any kind, right voices, faces videos audio. it's all suspect male as we find some compensating system for That can vouch For the fidelity of the media we're going to have to rely on our own five senses,… David Egts: Right. Gunnar Hellekson: ? David Egts: Yeah, well in and even then can you do that? But,… Gunnar Hellekson: Nope. David Egts: I would say that the media, if you analyze it you could probably tell if it was AI generated or not like a movie or an image or something like that. But probably on social media, a few people would do that and they're more likely to react in an adverse way. And, … Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: you're gonna have, after the uprising is over, somebody may take a look at I wrong,… Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: but people are going to act emotionally first and then, Figure out later that something wasn't true. Gunnar Hellekson: Yes, the seeds for the butler and jihad are being sown as we speak. David Egts: mm-hmm, I hear Yep. Gunnar Hellekson: Yeah. David Egts: All right, if people want to get ahead of their Christmas shopping and get you and Os to work plushie, where do we need to send? Gunnar Hellekson: They could go to Dgshow.org. That's a D She isn't Gunnar's g. And the DG show Dot Org on the Twitter and Mastodon. David Egts: Yeah. David Egts: All Okay Gunnar. thanks and thanks. Everybody for listening. Gunnar Hellekson: All right. Thanks everyone.