EPISODE 23

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] DS: Do you enjoy listening to On The Ear but wish you could earn ASHA CEU’s for it? Start today. SpeechTherapyPD.com has over 175 hours of audio courses on-demand with an average of 19 new audio courses released each month. And here's the best part. Each episode earns you ASHA Continuing Ed credits. Oh no wait, this is the best part. As a listener of On The Ear, you can receive $20 off an annual subscription when you use code EAR21. Just head to speechtherapypd.com to sign up and use code EAR21 for $20 off your annual subscription.

You're listening to On The Ear, an audiology podcast sponsored by SpeechTherapyPD.com. I'm your host, Dr. Dakota Sharp, Au.D CCC-A, audiologist, clinical professor and lifelong learner. While I primarily work with pediatric cochlear implants and hearing aids, I am absolutely intrigued by the many areas of audiology and communication in general. This podcast aims to explore the science of hearing, balance and communication with a variety of experts in hopes of equipping you to better serve your patients, colleagues and students. So, let's go. We are live and On The Ear, brought to you by SpeechTherapyPD.com.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:35] DS: Today, we're continuing our full scope of audiology series with a highly requested topic, working with animals. In the world of audiology, many, many people would love to work with animals, but many don't realize it's an option in the first place. Fortunately, today's guest is going to break down how it's possible to work with animals. He's the director of the University of Cincinnati FETCHLAB, Dr. Pete Scheifele. Dr. Scheifele is a Navy Vietnam-era veteran who served in submarine sonar and as a weapons officer, Navy Diver and naval oceanographer. He directed the Navy Marine Mammal Technology Program specializing in marine mammal bioacoustics research and was head trainer at Mystic Aquarium. He was awarded the Order of the Decibel and a Presidential Citation by President George Bush Senior for his pioneering work with marine mammal bioacoustics. 

He trained in handling narcotics and bomb dogs for the US Coast Guard. He has worked with a lot of different animals. Presently he directs the University of Cincinnati FETCHLAB, world renowned for investigating animal audiology, vocal mechanisms and bio acoustics and conducting animal audiology. Dr. Scheifele also serves as the US Army Special Forces in DOD subject matter expert and SME on tactical military working dog audiology and canine PTSD. He is professor of animal bioacoustics, audiology and human neuro-audiology in the College of Allied Health Sciences, and otology and neurology in the College of Medicine. He is an esteemed guest. We are so fortunate that he's joining us to talk about this extremely fascinating topic. Thank you so much for joining me, Dr. Pete. How are you? 

[00:03:02] PS: My pleasure. And I'm doing fine. 

[00:03:05] DS: Perfect. Okay. So we have a lot to talk about, because this is – When I've kind of put the call out on our Instagram for the podcast, I said, “I'm trying to do this series where we talk about some of the more niche roles and audiologists can play in their career.” And some people said working primarily with vestibular or working primarily in research, but I would say the overwhelming majority wanted to hear more, because at some point in our training or as an audiologist, we've heard, “Oh, yeah, there are people out there working with animals.” And we're like, “Wait. What? That's an option.” 

Can we start with you just breaking down a little bit of it seems like you've been there since we started working with animals in audiology at the beginning, right? Could you break down a little bit of the history of that and like how you kind of came to be in a role like this?

[00:03:50] PS: Sure, animal audiology actually is an emerging facet of audiology. That heretofore really hasn't played much of a role. Typically, in the past, veterinary neurologists or veterinary dermatologists might run what we call the BAER test, which in human audiology we call the ABR or auditory brainstem response. As it turns out, when Walt Disney came out with 101 Dalmatians, there was a large call for Dalmatians. And unfortunately, a lot of breeding led to some genetic errors. And in this case, the genetic error is congenital deafness. As it stands right now, in the United States, 80 breeds of dogs suffer congenital deafness. And as a result of that, there came a call for the categorizing, archiving and testing of puppies. 

And so because we are now in the age where we have electrophysiology, that is the gold standard that the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, which is the archiver and keeper of these types of tests of not only congenital deafness but other diseases, that is the gold standard for testing. Heretofore audiologists did not do this. Veterinarians, and veterinary neurologists, and veterinary dermatologists would probably do that sort of testing, which is just what we call a puppy screening. And it's simply a go/no go version of the ABR that says either the puppy is deaf or it's not. 

When I got to the University of Cincinnati and started teaching in communication sciences and disorders, it occurred to me, because I had animal experience that maybe our audiology students could learn more if they went outside the box. Meaning, if you are doing audiological testing with people, we've been doing it for so long, and there are proven, universally accepted models for what children or adult audiometry should look like. And so people do the test. And it's kind of like, “Well, you just do it, because you know the routine from A to Z.” 

But when you have an animal on the table, where there are not really any universally accepted norms, you don't really know what you're going to get. And you can't know what you're going to get unless you do it a lot unless you really understand the equipment and you understand ABR in and of itself. So I thought this would be a good exercise for the students. But as it turned out, when we started to do this, we were overwhelmed. I get scheduled – I've scheduled all the way past the summer now as it is, and it's not just with puppies, but now we have a lot of people that are coming in and saying, “Well, I have an older dog, and I think my dog can't hear anymore, or he's not behaving as if he can hear something.” 

I started FETCHLAB with the intent that an audiologist who learned animal audiology could work with a veterinarian in the same way that an audiologist could work with an ENT. And so the FETCHLAB that we have now, and actually there are three of them. I have one in Akron, and I have one at the University of Northern Colorado, and there are a few more to come, because we want that to be the case. We want audiologist to be able to work with veterinarians and be able to do diagnostic testing. Typically, a veterinarian is not going to do an OAE. Many of them don't even know what it is. Typically, they're not going to do a threshold estimation, ABR. And that's because, just like in human medicine and ENT, there's not enough time in medical school or veterinary medical school to do everything that they have to do and then spend the time that our students spend to become an AUD. So this FETCHLAB now hopefully bridges that gap and brings us into the 21st century with having animal audiology people that can routinely work with veterinarians and where people can go to find out whether their dog has a hearing loss, what kind of hearing loss it has, and so on and so forth. 

I have to caveat in here though and tell you this, when my students come in to FETCHLAB, one of the first things I tell them is, “If you are trying to get the animal audiology certificate, which you can only get from FETCHLAB,” we're the only place on the planet that offers this certification, “then don't quit your day job.” Because animal audiology, like I say, it's emerging. It's just starting. So many people don't even know that it exists. And so if you're an audiologist, be an audiologist. But if you want to expand your horizons and do both human audiology and something that is outside the box where you can be helpful, then you can get the animal audiology certificate. 

Along with that, it turns out that when FETCHLAB got rocking and rolling, it turns out that I had some dogs that came in that had a hearing loss, but they were not profoundly deaf. And they had enough residual hearing that actually a hearing aid might be useful to them. So way back when, there was a fellow at Auburn that did some hearing aids, tried to put some hearing aids on dogs. And I don't know whatever became of it. It stopped. But right now, FETCHLAB is the only place on the planet that actually we put hearing aids on canines. There're a lot of problems with that, the way that it goes, because it's in its infancy. I'm in the process of I have some grant money coming to work to make a canine hearing aid that is just for dogs. And that will be affordable by owners. Because right now, we've put nine hearing aids on dogs, but that means we have to use a human hearing aid, and then try to kind of remove or strip it of some of the things that dog would not need to have in a hearing aid. So it's very much in its infancy. But hopefully that will come up. And so that's another facet that goes in to the whole mix of what's going on with FETCHLAB. 

[00:10:52] DS: It’s amazing. 

[00:10:53] PS: Yeah. It's outside the box, for sure. And it's new and different. I'm actually quite shocked that the university allowed me to open up a FETCHLAB and do animal audiology. And as it turns out, because I am ex-military, I should say I'm ex-military, but I'm not ex-military anymore, because I've been called by our government back and the army research office to actually develop hearing protection for canines doing kennel mitigation of military kennels, and actually training military veterinarians to be able to do some of these tests. We're looking at dogs. I deal a lot with dogs that have gone to Afghanistan and Iraq, more than maybe three times or more, and who are coming back and having some issues. 

One of the first issues that we had was handlers would tell me that they got in a helicopter. And when it got to the LZ, the landing zone, they got out of the chopper, and the dog wasn't taking verbal commands. And so what I had to find out, and what I did find out and wind up talking to them about is, “So you're riding in a helicopter where the noise level is well over 100 db. And so everybody in the chopper is required, and does, wear hearing protection, except the dog.”

[00:12:26] DS: Oh my goodness. They have like a temporary threshold shift or something? 

[00:12:29] PS: Yeah. So what happens is you get a one hour flight, they come down maybe in the middle of a firefight, maybe not. And the dog is not taking verbal commands, because he can't hear the verbal commands. And so I had to do some experimentation and show the army that this is the case. You have to put hearing protection on your dog. Now, the handlers are very conscientious. And they try all kinds of things, ranging from cotton, to folding the dog's ears over. But then, as we all know, as audiologists, I tell them, “Putting cotton into dog's ear or just flopping the ear over is useless. It's not going to do anything. You need an actual hearing protection device that the dog can wear in flight.” 

I would say that, now, at FETCHLAB UC, where I am, because of my security clearance and whatever, I would say that about probably more than 60% of the time I'm working on projects for the Department of Defense. And so that added to what we already had. Well, as you know, students that are trying to get an AUD degree, or at least at the University of Cincinnati, are required to do a capstone project. And so I kind of started roping my people that wanted to be in FETCHLAB into doing other projects. And because I had previous experience as a trainer at Mystic Aquarium, and we did all of it and still do all of the acoustic work for the Georgia Aquarium – 

[00:14:10] DS: Oh, cool. We love the Atlanta Aquarium. Yeah, we love that one.

[00:14:16] PS: So yeah, so I started getting my students into that. The army came up with another project that was a kind of a special project on the side. And that turned out to be they wanted to know what an elephant could actually hear, an African elephant. And there's only been one behavioral hearing test of elephants. And it was done years ago on a young Indian elephant. And so, typically, now, each year, up until COVID came, I would take students over to Bela Bela in South Africa. We have seven wild elephants over there that they bring in, and they have been working with them, the handlers over there, to get them the idea that if they come and stand by this big log and let us put things on them, that they get well rewarded for that. And so we're in the process of trying to find out exactly what is the hearing threshold of an African elephant. 

Now we know we've done the upper frequencies, but we have not done the lower frequencies, which are considerably harder to do. We have also worked with elephants, walruses and dolphins at the Indianapolis Zoo. As I mentioned to you about the Atlanta aquarium, when the Atlanta Aquarium was being built, I got summoned by the people who were the fathers of the aquarium. And they were very, very interested and very conscientious about, “We're going to have marine mammals in here, notably, beluga whales, dolphins and such, that are living in a pool that is running with life support systems, pumps all the time, their whole life, and they can't get away from it.” And they want to make sure that these animals were going to be necessarily not losing their hearing, but just well taken care of from the point of view of noise. 

had a group of students that I took with me, and for one week, we put accelerometers and vibrometers on their pumps. And we ran their system with no animals in it all day long in different configurations, and actually acoustically mapped their pools, their pool system and their life support system. So today, we still do this. I put hydrophones in their pools. And so what happens is if they're going to have at night function, their ballroom is surrounded by the beluga pool and the open ocean pool. And of course, they also now have a dolphinarium. 

What happens is we get recordings from them. So if they're having a wedding in the ballroom, and the DJ props up the music too loud, then I know that that's happening. And then we are able to call and say, “You got to turn it down. You can have this volume of sound.” As I say, they are extremely cautionary with regard to noise impacts to their animals. And they are acutely aware of it. And every month I get recording sent and we analyze them to determine do they have a bad pump? Is the gate making too much noise? What's happening? So all this basically comes down to life at FETCHLAB is not just canines, but it turns out to be we've done everything from elephants, wild cheetahs, walruses.

[00:17:41] DS: What?

[00:17:43] PS: Yeah. So here we are today, really working on things. And hopefully when the hearing aids get – When I finally get that develop, then they'll be affordable by dog owners who can qualify with, a dog can qualify, obviously, by having enough residual hearing. But also the owner needs to qualify. Because in order to put hearing aids on dogs, and my dog was first dog to get hearing aids, but my wife is an exotic animal trainer by degree. And so this dog was highly trained because he was being used on Animal Planet and all kinds of things like that. And when he started to lose his hearing, she noticed that he was becoming very frustrated, because he couldn't hear off camera cues and stuff like that. And so he was the first one that we put. We actually put a BTE hearing aid on him, that the hearing aids were attached to a special case that he wore and the tubes went into his ear. 

The problem is that dogs don't want something in their ear. And so it takes special training and really concerted training on the part of the owner to have the dog be able to keep the hearing aid in his ear. Moreover, even if the dog accepts the hearing aid in his ear, because it's not a human, I can't never guarantee an owner that the dog is not going to acknowledge the hearing aid. In the case of the nine hearing aids that we've put on dogs, seven out of nine worked out very well, including one dog that is a search and rescue dog that belongs to a vet in Austin, Texas, and wears hearing aids while doing his job. And it works out very well. But if the owners are not consistent and consistently training, that won't happen. And even if it does, the dog may decide that it doesn't want to acknowledge it. 

This is kind of the going on. Like I say, I think from a student point of view, to become an AUD, working at FETCHLAB leaves them to have a lot of questions, because it's not rote memory. It's not a menu of A to Z. There's nothing that says what you should do for the patient that you have, because it's an animal, and every animal is different. And certainly if you're working with marine mammals, that's the difference. So, by a long way around, that's kind of both the history of FETCHLAB and what we are doing today.

[00:20:08] DS: Wow! I mean, it's just so expansive, but so fascinating. And just to think, yeah, the examples you've pointed out, I mean, specifically just the work in the aquarium and how that's definitely related to what we do with the auditory system and how we understand sound, and just how audiologists can be uniquely capable in situations like this that I've never considered. And I think that's so fascinating. 

I do have to know. I mean, I have a dog. She's amazing. But I look in her ear and that your canal is the most irregular shape I've ever seen. And how are you making a mold for that kind, that shape of your canal?

[00:20:44] PS: That actually have me laughing here. That's kind of funny. So a dog has both a vertical and a horizontal ear canal. So when you look in at first, what you're looking is straight down. You're looking at the vertical canal, which then takes – It's got a little bump in there, which we call Naxon’s ridge. And then it takes a 90 degree angle and goes down to the ear, just sort of like ours does. That doesn't affect the dog's hearing. The dog is still subject to noise-induced hearing loss. So anything that a human is subjected to. But you got to be crafty with the otoscope if you're going to be looking all the way down the dog's ear. 

The funny story is that, so on that first dog that I told you, with the hearing aids, the dog came in, my wife was handling it, and we poured ear molds just like we do for people. We put the blocker in there and we're pouring them into the vertical canal. So I get this done. And I sent it off to the hearing aid company. And the next day, or two days later, approximately when these things arrived, I got a call from the hearing aid company. And the guy says, “What did you send me?” So I said, “Well, they're molds for a hearing aid. And he says, “I've never seen anything like this before.” I said, “Well, it's for a dog.” He goes, “A dog? Are you crazy?” So I'm like, “No, I'm not crazy. It's for a dog.” 

What we found out over time is that if we send them to a hearing aid company, whether it's Starkey, or Phonak, or whatever, because the canal looks so different, we actually have to label everything. We have to label this is up, this is down, this is right, this is left, because it just don't look like anything that these guys have ever dealt with in the past. And so we always get the, “What the heck is this?”

[00:22:46] DS: I’m not surprised. So I know that dogs are more sensitive to a higher frequency range than humans are. When it comes to testing things like that, I mean, are you – For example, with the BAER or the ABR that you're doing with dogs, when you do a frequency specific test, I mean, are you testing up into these higher frequencies than we would typically see? I know, I mean, a dog whistle is inaudible. So I'm just curious, are you limited by the equipment? Is there equipment that is specialized to produce higher frequency sounds for a situation like this? Or is it kind of irrelevant in this case?

[00:23:23] PS: Well, there're a couple of answers to that. One of them is, yes, we can make the equipment to be able to do some higher frequency sounds, although we don't. And here's the reason why. I want to take a step back a minute, because it's an interesting question that you're asking. And many of the military handlers and the civilian handlers will ask me the same question. The routine is that people – What I hear people say is dogs hear so much better than humans. And in fact, that's not necessarily the case. Dogs can hear higher frequencies than humans can hear. And they are very sensitive to those higher frequencies. But at some of the lower frequencies, actually, a person does better than a dog. 

Now, we do not routinely use gated tone verse to test the higher frequencies. And here's the reason why. The average person that's going to come to me and ask me to test their dog’s hearing, his only concern, it's a pet. Their only concern, “Is the dog going to hear me call them? Is the dog going to be able to hear when somebody comes home into the house?” So they just want to hear the common things that any person would want to hear. And there really is no need to test those higher frequencies. So we typically do not do it.

[00:24:41] DS: That makes sense. That's really interesting. I'm curious too what some of the contexts – I mean, in this world where we're seeing so many more working animals, especially dogs with jobs, I feel like it makes a lot of sense that someone, let's say, who relies on their dog for hearing. I mean, there are plenty of people who use a hearing dog as a service animal. You'd want maybe your dog to have their hearing screened once a year, or some kind of context like that so they can do their job well. And I know, I think the search and rescue was another great example that I hadn't thought of. Are there other any interesting contexts in terms of dogs or animals in general with jobs that you see this kind of audiologic care becoming more part of the norm?

[00:25:22] PS: Yeah, it depends on what the dog's job is. I mean, unfortunately, we are all subject to the law and whatever. And so it's not likely that a seeing eye dog would be getting a hearing test and then being put back online, because there are too many legal problems if the dog, for some reason, doesn't hear something, or whatever. But for many dogs, having a hearing test certainly can prolong the working life of that dog. And this is what we see with military people. If you got a dog that is – A dog and handler who have been being deployed on a regular basis, and they get deployed to places where there are gunfights and whatever, then they get tested every time they come back. And they get baseline when they commit to the program. Then they get tested when they come back, because sometimes they just need rest. Sometimes that dog can't go out and work again. And we have to pull it off line. 

But if we're testing it, then we can extend the working life of those kinds of dogs. This also applies towards police dogs. Presently, I'm doing some work with the Cincinnati SWAT team. And we worry about their dogs that are on site when the SWAT team is going to breach a doorway or something like that, and all the training that they go to under firearms and stuff. So by testing the dogs routinely, as you say, and probably an annual test or something like that, we can head things off, and it can extend the working life of the dog for sure.

[00:27:06] DS: Wow! Wow! What a great way to use this like emerging diagnostic information. I'm curious. So it sounds like the FETCHLAB works, I mean, with a lot of different animals. Is it fair to say primarily canines?

[00:27:19] PS: At the university, it is definitely canines. We don't technically – 

[00:27:22] DS: Okay. But outside of that, yeah. 

[00:27:25] PS: Right now, one day a week, we're with the SWAT teams. Typically, once the COVID thing goes through, one day a week we would be up at the Indianapolis Zoo. Once a year, we're in South Africa. So, yeah, there are other things going on. But if it's a day-to-day thing every week, then we're talking about basically puppies, older dogs that are coming into FETCHLAB at the University.

[00:27:53] DS: Gotcha. So is the testing that almost all electrophysiologic testing? Are you working on any behavioral testing options? I have a feeling it would take a while to train a dog to then be able to perform some kind of behavioral audiometry. If at all, what is that looking like?

[00:28:09] PS: Well, it's a good thing you bring up. As we all know that the electrophysiological test is not a true test of hearing. And this is the reason why many animals have been tested behaviorally over the years. I mean, Hefner & Hefner were doing behavioral testing of a myriad of different species since 1950. But it's really dicey. We don't rely at all on behavioral testing, one, because it takes a long time to do. You've got to test a lot of frequencies. The dog needs training. There's a behavioral bias that goes into the analysis of it. Whereas the reason why the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals relies, thanks to Dr. George Strain, on the ABR, or what we call the BAER test, is because it's about as objective as we can get, and it runs quickly, and the dog can do it. 

In the past, a veterinarian, if you came in with your dog and said, “I think my dog is losing his hearing. He's not getting up. Or he's not acknowledging me calling them,” or whatever like that. A veterinarian might jangle some keys or use a clicker or something. But as we know, that is no test of hearing at all. And because dogs are very sensitive to vibration, if you're in the same room and do something like that, you haven't proven anything. So that's why the gold standard is the ABR. And that is largely what we do. 

[00:29:40] DS:  Gotcha. So could you break down then kind of what that testing looks like when you do the BAER test? Forgive my ignorance, but I feel like maybe the fur would make your impedances a little funny. Is there sedation involved? Or do you just kind of get the dogs when they're taking a nap? What's the setup look like?

[00:29:58] PS: Okay, so the setup looks like, first of all, we use bent needle electrodes. So needle electrode goes on each year and one on vertex. We don't have any problem with fur.

[00:30:10] DS: No impedance issues at all there then.

[00:30:12] PS: No. No.

[00:30:13] DS: Very different from the babies I'm seeing. 

[00:30:15] PS: Oh, yes, absolutely. So what we do is when we come in, and when the people come in, we put Lidocaine on the three spots where we're going to put the electrodes, and then we put the electrodes on. And then it's the same ER3A or ER2 ear inserts that we're using. And so you have a person that's holding the pup, or the handler might be restraining the dog. As far as sedation goes, this is another good thing that you're bringing up. And as people go through to get the animal audiology certificate, there's some veterinary training that needs to be done. One is restraint. But the other one is this, by law, we may not practice veterinary medicine. Now, in legal terms, that term practice has very, very specific meaning. 

In our case, we do have an animal care and use committee at the university who oversees us, but we are not allowed to sedate any dog or any animal actually, because we can't practice veterinary medicine. That is the role of the veterinarian. So, typically, puppies don't require it. When puppies come in – And I have no problem with this. Get this. It's kind of funny. I mean, I have faculty members that would just love to come over on Friday afternoon, sit on the floor in the hallway and play with puppies. They love it. So when puppies come in, generally, what we do is we get them tired. We put the Lidocaine on, and then the puppy is held. And usually they're just fine. We have had dogs, puppies that don't want any part of it. They'll try to climb up my technician’s arms. But generally, we don't have a problem. And we never ever, sedate puppies. It wouldn't have any effect on the test. But it’s not what the owner/breeder wants to see. And I don't think that it serves any purpose. 

If we have an older dog coming in, then there are a couple of things that we are required to do. One is they have to show proof that the dog has been rabies vaccinated. The other thing is that I tell them before they come, when they're making the appointment, I'll say to them, “If you feel that your dog is not going to stay still, reasonably still, it might pant, it might move its head a little bit, but if it's going to go crazy, or you think the dog is going to be nippy or bite, then you need to go to your attending veterinarian and get a sedative from your vet and do whatever the vet tells you to do with that sedative.” Having said that, what they will likely do is go to their veterinarian. The veterinarian is likely to prescribe something like acepromazine. And then the only thing that we have to be concerned about is acepromazine can work both ways. Some dogs will take acepromazine and they'll get logy, and they’ll be sedated, and they just want to sit down or lay down and just vegetate. But some dogs will take acepromazine and go off the wall. 

What I tell the owner is, “You have to get the sedative and follow the directions of your veterinarian.” And I advise you that if the dog has not been sedated before with an oral sedative, that you talk to your veterinarian about trying it before you ever come in at home, where if the dog has a bad reaction to it, you have the veterinarian available, and that veterinarian then needs to see that dog maybe prescribe a different type of sedative, or whatever the case may be. But yeah, we are very limited. All we can do is straight up and down audiology. We are not allowed to do anything else other than that.

[00:34:10] DS: Yeah, that's totally fair. And it's something that I hadn't considered. I mean, I feel like anytime you're in an emerging discipline, there's a lot that has to be fleshed out in terms of scope of practice, and what's going to fall under one category or the other. So it's great that you guys are taking things like that into consideration. Honestly, it makes total sense. 

So I know you're currently in the process of working on a more general hearing aid that can maybe be a bit more accessible for people. I'm curious, actually, when you're talking about the hearing protection, especially for service dogs, are there any considerations for that that like we might not consider in terms of the noise reduction rating needed? Because I know different earplugs have different – I’m trying to think of like a frequency response curve where it’s going to be better at reducing other frequency more. Are there things like that that you're having to consider, and the material type? Or what's kind of going into your thoughts process there?

[00:35:01] PS: Okay, so I have just developed, which is now obtainable by the civilian community, a hearing protection device that was originally designed for multipurpose military canines, specifically, but it works for any dog. And when I first started to do this with the Army Research Office and talking to the military vets and everything, there was a lot of talk when I spoke with their handlers about, “Well, what about using earplugs and stuff?” 

Now, I'm not a fan of earplugs. At least not for canines, because my experience – And you probably are very much more experienced than I am. But my experience is that if you go to a workplace where the hearing conservation program, even though the audiologist will teach about the hearing protection devices and fit them, a good number of the employees either A, are very much against wearing them. They have all kinds of reasons, like I won't be able to hear my machine, or whatever the case may be. And about half of them that do wear them will just shove them in. They’re not fitting them right. And so it’s almost useless to have them even put it on. 

Now you're talking about trying to put it on a dog who really doesn't want to have something in its ear. Now it's doubly hard to do. So we developed a snood-like device, which basically fits over the dog's head. Has acoustic foam in the earpieces, and it fits snugly around the dog's whole head and part of the neck so that noise can't intrude into it. It does have a noise reduction rating. But when it comes to frequencies, that's when we are a little bit more careful. 

Since this was designed for the military, we know that the lower frequencies are the hardest ones to attenuate, which should just make physical sense. But it is the lower frequencies that most of these dogs are being subjected to, such as gunfire, IEDs, flashbangs, things like that. So we have gotten and developed using various different acoustic foams, a way of getting better attenuation at the lower frequencies. And my reasoning for that is once you get to the higher frequencies, they attenuate rapidly anyway. So it really doesn't matter. The attenuation is going to happen naturally. But it's the lower frequencies. And specifically for these working animals that are going to be working in impulse gunfire types of situations. 

Now, it's interesting that you bring this up, because every 4th of July, I go through hell and high water. I cannot even tell you the number of calls that I'm getting from all over the nation about my dog is in the bathroom. He's going crazy. He doesn't like fireworks. How far away do we have to be from the fireworks? And what can we do? And so this particular snood-type of hearing protection device, which is called Rex Specs, is good for fireworks, because it was designed for military gunfire, and explosions, and police type of work. And so now people can order them and get them. But yeah, 4th of July is a disaster, because everybody's dog seems to be noise phobic. So I'm like, “Well, I can't give you a hearing protection device right now. You have to kind of go get it yourself.” And here it is, the 4th of July. And nothing's going to happen on the 4th of July. But I recommend you do it for next year. But yeah, a lot of noise phobic dogs out there.

[00:38:49] DS: Wow! So is the Ear Pro from Rex Specs, is that something that you developed?

[00:38:54] PS: Yeah, I was working with a group of people. This was an army project. And I was working with a group of people from Zeteo Incorporated. The army is the one that came to me and said, “Well, now that you've alerted us to the fact that the helicopter ride with no hearing protection is not good for the dog. What do we do about it?” 

[00:39:17] DS: You gave them a problem. And now you've got to give them a solution. 

[00:39:20] PS: Yeah, in typical military fashion it was, “Hey, Commander, fix this.” And so yeah, so we worked on it for a while. We did real ear testing with the various different foams and whatever. And it all panned out. And so that's what's being used now. The army would like other types of hearing protection that have more bells and whistles on it than simply the snoot. But the snoot is good for transportation. It's good for helicopter rides, fixed-wing aircraft, you name it. But now people can get it. Anybody can go on to Rex Specs and order it.

[00:39:59] DS: Yeah, I was just reading the reviews, and people are just raving about it, especially for 4th of July and fireworks. And what a great idea for something that – I totally see the utility from a military perspective. But man, so many people I know and their dogs just really struggle with loud noises like that. So that’s great. That’s great. 

[00:40:16] PS: Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely. 

[00:40:19] DS: Okay, so I'm curious. Are there any other things in the intervention space? So we've briefly talked about you're sort of working towards that hearing aid. I'm not sure if you want to talk more about that, this hearing protection. But maybe with other animals as well, or other things – Like now that we know we can do some kind of diagnostic information audiologically on animals, I'm throwing you with the same question that the military gave you. What else can we be doing about it? And I guess this is also kind of a question too what the future of research is looking like for the FETCHLAB?

[00:40:50] PS: Well, I mean, right now, the big future as far as anything that you can do directly with the dog other than behavioral training is the use of Ear Pro, and the canine hearing aid. I believe that in the future – Honestly, I get calls, not only in the United States, but I've had calls from Russia, from France, from Italy of people that want me to come over and test their dog and put a hearing aid on their dog, which partially is unreal, because a lot of folks – And you would know this better than I do. As an audiologist, there's a lot of people that believe that if I put a hearing aid on their dog, it's the magic bullet, and the dog will go back to the way it was, and everything's going to be hunky dory.

Typically, what I'll get, this is almost to a tee, almost as a quote. People will email me, or they'll call me up and they'll say, “I have this dog, and he's our family pet, or he's my buddy. And I just want to create a good quality of life for him because he's losing his hearing. And would you put a hearing aid on my dog?” And my first response to that is, “Look, by the mere fact that you are calling me up and asking me to do this tells me that you are a conscientious owner, and your dog has a good quality of life, because you're concerned enough to even call me and ask me such a thing.” 

[00:42:20] DS: Absolutely. 

[00:42:21] PS: And so I applaud them for that. But right now, until we can actually do the work and get a hearing aid that is just going to be good for canines, it doesn't need all the things that we have on human hearing aids, and it will be affordable, this is kind of where we're stuck. Because right now, if I put a hearing aid on a dog, it's usually I have to order either a Starkey or a Phonak hearing aid, and then work with the dog with that. And so you're looking at thousands of dollars. 

Now, dogs undergo presbycusis, just like people do. So if a person comes in, and they have a German Shepherd, or a golden retriever, or something like that, and this dog is 11 or 12 years old, the life expectancy of that dog is only going to be probably about two more years. So then I'm not going to build them out of a bunch of money. So I'm obligated to say, “Do you really want to spend $3,000 and a year or more of training on a dog whose life expectancy isn't going to be that long?” And I think people – And that's a harsh thing, because people – Look, one of the first guys that ever came in, it was an elderly man, came in with his dog. His wife had long passed. And it was him and the dog. He came in, and we tested his dog. And I had to go to him and say, “Sir, your dog has a severe hearing loss.” Well, the man sat down in the chair and cried his eyes out for 15 minutes, because I was telling him that his only buddy in life was having a hard time hearing him. And that was hard information to give this person. 

I think the hearing aid, that's going to be number one. We're still trying to work on the docket with that. Certainly whatever we do for the military is there, but also just trying to get a larger scope of animals to test, because so many animals have not been tested. And if we are testing hearing on an animal that has already had a behavioral test, then typically what we'll do is we'll do the electrophysiological testing to see if it actually matches the behavioral data. And it's just another proof. I think other than that, what I've been doing a lot lately – Again, this started with the military, is kennel noise mitigation. So, typically, kennel, whether it's the military kennel, or whether it's humane society, or whatever, kennels are made to be clean. So what are you looking at? You're looking at a kennel that’s – 

[00:45:04] DS: Hard, flat surfaces. 

[00:45:05] PS: Yeah, yeah, concrete floor block wall, maybe a tin ceiling? And how many dogs is it going to house? So one of the first papers that I wrote on kennel noise was we had a kennel here at our veterinary tech school, and so we went in did the noise testing when there were no dogs in it, which is another thing that goes with this whole FETCHLAB thing, is I'm the guy that's responsible for teaching physical acoustics to our AUD students. And a lot of them I would hear say, “Why do I need to learn physics?” I'm going to be in audiology.” And I'm like, “Really? Okay. You know, well, here's the reason why.” And so then we go down this path. So we tested the kennel with no dogs in it. And then we brought in 22 dogs that were put into the kennel. And we BAER tested all those dogs before entering the kennel. 

Now realizing that this is a test of thresholds, so we have to wait a little bit to give them some ear rest, because you don't know what they were subjected to either in transit or whatever. But we baseline tested them. We tested them again at three months. Literally, half of those dogs in three months were showing enough of a significant threshold shift from being in the kennel. And at the end of six months, over 90% of them had hearing threshold shifts from being in the kennel. And when I took the readings in the kennel of noise readings with a sound level meter, you're looking at ups and downs of course. The night is a very quiet time. But for a good portion of the day, the noise in that kennel was anywhere from 98 to 110 db. So I had to go tell the veterinarians, “Look, by federal law, you cannot work in there without hearing protection. You just can't, because you're over the limit.” 

Well, this was another thing when Uncle Sam came my way was now you're talking about kennels with a huge amount of dogs in it. So what happens? Again, it's an up and down. But the noise levels in these kennels are tremendous. So I'm saying to them, “Look, you're expecting this dog to work. You're expecting it to potentially work under gunfire or whatever the case may be.” But you come in in the morning, all these dogs are fed, and they're going out of their minds. And the noise is so high-level in the kennel that by rights you shouldn't even be in there, at least not without hearing protection. But now you're going to take this dog out, and you're going to go do things with it, whether it's gunfire or whatever. You're just adding to the threshold shift that you already have in the dog by virtue of the way that your kennel is built and how you're kenneling the dogs. 

A lot of work lately, and this is going to continue to go on, is teaching people, whether it's military or not, that you have to mitigate the noise in the kennel.  You can't just lay concrete down and then go for it. You need to be able to have some noise mitigation in effect in the kennel not only for the people that are going to go in there and work, but also for the dogs that are in there and can't leave. And so that is becoming. Now, the follow on to that is that we've had, just like Georgia Aquarium, we've had a number of zoos and aquariums that have come to us and said, “Well, how does our backup area work? Is our backup area when we bring the animals in at night? Is the backup area too loud with all these –” Because it's just like a kennel. Is my pool system too loud? My life support system for the dolphins, is it too – So now we're in the realm where not only are we looking at mitigating kennel noise, but we're now looking at mitigating what happens when you have a large performance pool that dolphins are going to be in. What happens if you have a tiger exhibit and it's outdoors and you've got traffic going by and everything? And so that’s a whole nother world.

[00:49:18] DS: Wow! Oh my goodness. Yeah, it's so far reaching. I just did not think about this at all. 

[00:49:24] PS: It's amazing. 

[00:49:24] DS: And it's such a great opportunity, I think to really – I mean, you're so right. I often felt that way early in my AUD program in that early psycho acoustics course, learning about sound and physics. And I'm like, “Come on, how relevant is this?” And now that I'm out, and I'm trying to explain concepts to people, and I have children who are in classrooms and I'm trying to explain why this certain setup or this lack of any kind of – Like how all of these things are related. And so I definitely see how this information can be so helpful and just being, like you said at the beginning, just kind of framing things in a new way. It's the same type of information, but it's just thinking outside of the box with it. That's really, really great.

[00:50:06] PS: You know, as an audiologist, you know, and I always ask my students about this, because I'm not an audiologist. And I asked my students about this and say, “What do people think about hearing?” And people themselves, like hearing is probably one of the last things anybody thinks about until it's too late or until we get men that come in, “You're here for a hearing test.” “Yeah, I came down for a hearing test, because my wife told me I had to come down, because he's tired of repeating herself.”

Well, all these different things. But now if you consider how humans where on the totem pole does hearing live with humans as far as health goes. When you get into animals, nobody thinks of animals. They don't worry about how the kennel is built. They're not worried about until it's the 4th of July, and they have problems with their dogs. They're categorically not worried about audiology for – And then you start talking about exotic animals. We, for years, had built pool systems in aquaria that were just horrible.

Now things have changed. You have to have uneven bottom. You want to put some substrate in it, which all helps to mitigate some of the noise. They’re more attuned to life support systems that are more noise friendly. But people don't think about that with animals. That's the last thing they're going to think about.

[00:51:34] DS: That's a really good point. And I think your work is going to be instrumental, I think, in reshaping that. And audiologists can kind of be that point person offering that insight and that understanding of how important hearing health is in general. Man, there's been so much great information. So we're kind of coming up towards the end of our time. I'm curious if there's a single memory, or breakthrough, or just moment. I know you have worked in a lot of different spaces with a lot of different professionals and animals. Is there any kind of memory that sticks out to you is one of the real big highlights of your career? 

[00:52:12] PS: Oh boy, there are probably more than I can imagine. because, to me, in this field, in the animal audiology field, I have to tell you, every day is a new day. And it's like a Forrest Gump’s box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get. But I think one of the things that had stuck with me was the first dog that we put hearing aids on. So we would train, my wife and two kids, would train every night. And we had it to where we put the hearing aids on. He didn't seem to be acknowledging the hearing aids or whatever. And so every evening, we would sit in four corners, each one of the kids, and we all had one of those bicycle horns that you could press and it goes “E-e-e-e-e.” 

[00:53:02] DS: Hong Kong? Yeah.

[00:53:03] PS: Yeah. And so one person would honk it and we would – And he kind of just sit there or have this glazed over look. But after about a month of time, we’re they are one night and one of the kids honked their horn. And this is what astounded me. The dog's facial expression actually changed. And he perked up like, “What in a world was that? Like I actually heard something.” It was phenomenal. And then he went to the source of the sound. And that's when we knew, “Okay, the hearing aid is working.” He's acknowledging it behaviorally. And so as we processed and went into that time after time, and he started to wear them. Before he died, this dog would come on a Saturday morning, he would actually come and want you to put his cape on and put the hearing aids on. He did not want – And I was blown away. Absolutely blown away by it. So I guess that's one of the things that sticks out to me.

[00:54:17] DS: That's an amazing breakthrough. That feels – I mean, eventually, let's be honest, Dr. Schiefele. There's going to be a movie about your career, right? This is far too fascinating. And I do think that's going to be the kind of like big moment in the movies when the dog perks up and then you've got the montage of them running in each morning ready to put their hearing aids in, right? That's going to be too good. I'm so excited.

[00:54:40] PS: Yeah. I somehow doubt that that will ever happen. I’m not even sure I want that to happen. But yeah, this is – As I say, it's an emerging field. Almost everything that we do in the FETCHLAB, every new animal that we test is just something that hasn't been done before. Everything in life of animal audiology is as brand new as you can get it. And unfortunately, like many things, it leads us to more questions than answers. The fact that we have the time to work on it and keep on looking for the answers is amazing. And when I step back and I look at students that I've had in FETCHLAB and students that I have in FETCHLAB now who are so dedicated to the animals, whether it's because they just like puppies, or whatever the case may be. I'm seeing these people and going, “You're in the AUD program, but do you realize how much on the – You are on the cutting edge. You're doing what no one has done before. You are it.” And that pleases me to no end.

[00:55:51] DS:  Yeah, powerful. That's great. I know your students are really fortunate to have you. A former student of yours is a friend of mine. It’s how we were able to connect. So I know you've had a big impact on the students you've worked with over the years. That's amazing. 

[00:56:02] DS: Oh, I’m glad to hear that.

[00:56:05] DS: Okay, well, we are just about at the end of our time. If we have people out there who would like to connect with you or learn more about the work that the FETCHLAB is doing, I think you told me that they can head to the UC FETCHLAB website, which we're going to include in the show notes. Is that right?

[00:56:18] PS: Yes. And that that website is where we answer questions, but we also make appointments and things. And they can get a hold of me. If they ask for me, they can get ahold of me, and then get my email address or whatever. And we can converse. That's the best way to do it.

[00:56:35] DS: Perfect. Well, I'm sure you're going to have some people knocking on your door with some dogs and other animals that they're worried about. But the work you're doing is great, and so excited. And I'm excited to have connected with you. Thank you so much for joining me. 

[00:56:46] PS: Oh, I'm so honored that you would even invite me. Thank you so much.

[00:56:50] DS: Of course, of course. All right. It was so great talking to you. Have a great rest of your day. 

[00:56:54] PS: All right, you too. 

[OUTRO]

[00:56:58] DS: That's all for today. Thank you so much for listening, subscribing, and rating. This podcast is part of an audio course offered for continuing education through Speech Therapy PD. Check out the website if you'd like to learn more about the CEU opportunities available for this episode, as well as archived episodes. Just head to speechtherapypd.com/ear. That’s speechtherapypd.com/ear.

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