David Morrill [00:00:07] Hey this is David Morrill, communications director for AWSP, welcome to our first live streamed episode of AWSP TV. [00:00:16] If you're watching it now you're not watching the livestream, but it was our first live streamed event and we had a little hiccup at the beginning. [00:00:24] You basically missed about two minutes of Scott doing the same thing I'm doing right now welcoming you to the episode. [00:00:30] So without further ado please enjoy our AWSP TV with Dr. [00:00:36] Scott Seaman, Chris Reykdal and Dr. [00:00:39] Michaela Miller. Scott Seaman [00:00:41] Might have tapped you on the shoulder influenced you in one way or the other. [00:00:44] So for now why don't we just jump straight into OSPI. [00:00:48] Chris at one point I heard you speak about the role OSPI plays in the state and some of the misperceptions that are out there. [00:00:57] So the way you've described it was great, so why don't you, no pressure, turn around and tell the audience of millions out there about the role OSPI plays in the state. Chris Reykdal [00:01:09] Well let's make sure for anyone who's not familiar with the subject, and thanks for having us by the way on the first live event ever, we promise no children no animals so it should be there for you this time around. [00:01:21] Next time we don't make that promise. [00:01:22] So it's the Office of Superintendent Public Instruction and most people know that. [00:01:25] But some don't. [00:01:26] And obviously in our state it's an elected position. [00:01:30] And I do think there's a lot of misperceptions about it. [00:01:32] We sort of describe it as an hourglass where our two major customers really are school districts and the legislature the legislature writes the checks and so on one hand we want to be really responsive to them. [00:01:44] And in any hourglass they sort of put a bunch of grains of sand a policy and money in there and it comes through OSPI and we actually send the money out to school districts. [00:01:51] They do amazing work at the ground level in classrooms and buildings and obviously with mostly of the great leadership of your membership as our principals and hopefully good results come of that, we flip that hourglass upside down and what comes back through OSPI is data and information and we share that back out to legislators and the whole idea here is that, I think, we have a role in making sure policymakers know the needs of schools, and candidly we try to help school personnel understand a little better how complicated the legislature is and how many competing priorities they have and how to make their work easier by delivering good results. Scott Seaman [00:02:29] Wow. [00:02:32] I have to smile because we use the hourglass visual at the role a principal plays in supporting and filtering information to the to the school and what they get from central office and above. [00:02:45] So you stole our hourglass. [00:02:47] Well, we’ll debate that — or maybe we stole it from you. [00:02:50] I don't know it's just a great visual. [00:02:52] So you're both involved and engaged at leadership at the systems level. [00:02:58] And Chris and I for the audience that may or may not know this but we were in principal — I mean teacher prep school way back in the day at Washington State University, the Harvard of the West. [00:03:10] So you served as a teacher and you worked your way through the system, you find yourself at OSPI, trying to lead systems changes. [00:03:20] What are some of the biggest challenges frustrations that you have when — we wish we could just snap our fingers and do what's right for kids tomorrow. [00:03:29] What are some of those challenges and frustrations? Chris Reykdal [00:03:32] Well I'll start off with one, and Michaela really is our, she's really our leader on very detailed teaching and learning policy and everything that really impacts the classroom Michaela has a leadership role and so she's kind of our our spiritual leader on that. [00:03:47] My job as you might imagine is a lot more big picture. [00:03:51] It is a legislative relationship role, it's a face to the public. [00:03:55] So again if I have a frustration, it’s that I don't get nearly enough time to help legislators connect and understand what's truly happening in schools. [00:04:04] There's a lot of theory in a house or a Senate chamber about what schools do or don't do and they would all be well served by more listening and simultaneously it is a complicated legislative process. [00:04:14] And while we're now more than half of the state budget, we're on record pace of funding per student, we've now got compensation at or near market, we've made these huge strides. [00:04:23] I still think there's a frustration by school personnel and school districts, sometimes understandably, but it's mostly because they don't realize the lack of resourcing constraint that the legislature is under. [00:04:35] So if I could get those worlds to spend more time with each other I think it would be a better environment. Michaela Miller [00:04:42] Yeah I think our role — so I'm more district facing, school facing in my work. [00:04:49] And so I think one of the things that we've been working on, across the agency, is helping principals and district leaders be sense makers of what's coming out of the legislature. [00:05:02] And that's really challenging because things come fast and furious in three or four months at a time and then all of a sudden you have to turn around and implement all of those policies, many layered on top of each other and so to unpack all of those make some sense of them. [00:05:19] And then the real challenge is how to medicate the frustration of some of those policies coming down that you may or may not agree with or that don't fit your contacts and being able to kind of make sense of those things I think is a high priority for our team to try and work with principals so that they can make sense of this for their staff. [00:05:41] District leaders making sense of things across the district, I think, being able to turn around and have the kinds of messages and meaning for those students in your context is probably the most paramount job that I see OSPI doing. Scott Seaman [00:05:58] So you guys get angry phone calls? Michaela Miller [00:06:02] Never! Chris Reykdal [00:06:03] Few phone calls but a lot of email. [00:06:06] A lot. Scott Seaman [00:06:08] That's great. [00:06:10] Well I have to say from AWSP standpoint we love the partnership with OSPI and really appreciate the fact that for I think for decades silos have existed in this system for way too long, we've all been trying to do our own thing and guarding our own part of this equation. [00:06:27] It's nice to see this increased partnership with us but also other agencies and organizations. [00:06:33] How about the joy side? [00:06:35] You know as a principal or a teacher it's easy to turn around have that kid fix and have the joy of being involved in education. [00:06:42] Where do you find your joy at the systems level of leadership? Chris Reykdal [00:06:46] Well we actually talk about this quite a bit. Scott Seaman [00:06:47] Besides hitting delete on those e-mails. Chris Reykdal [00:06:49] Yeah yeah. [00:06:49] There’s that. [00:06:51] We're pretty intentional about this conversation particularly as we onboard employees we do often talk with them about the fact that they're getting further away from students so they have to find this motivation in understanding how they connect to smaller big decisions that lead to better outcomes for students because you don't always see it directly but I'm fortunate that I still get to get into a classroom once in a while and get to meet with students quite a bit in different forms so that is always as you indicate some of the best part of the work. [00:07:19] And then honestly I'm a data guy though I taught history and government in civics and care deeply about the social sciences. [00:07:27] I'm a data person, so despite the worry and the fear and the frustration out there that crops up at times we get to step back and look at it and go my gosh record graduation rates despite students taking more rigorous coursework than they ever have, better investments in terms of total resource per kid for growing our investment students with disabilities faster than at any time in our in our state's history at this point. [00:07:51] We get to see these big picture movements and they're not always obvious in the moment or that or the day to day in a classroom. [00:07:57] But we have to look at the world in 5 and 10 and 20 year lengths, and so when we saw frustration with people about the salaries for example that went out, we were looking for years at teacher preparation data and seeing just this absolute precipitous drop. [00:08:11] So knowing that 5, 10 and 20 years from now there's a better market to recruit young people to teach, that lifts me up. [00:08:17] It's a total positive for me. [00:08:19] Despite the frustrations that occurred out in districts, we look out 20 years and say that is a pretty monumental thing. Scott Seaman [00:08:26] Yeah and that's a good perspective to remind us about, so yeah. Michaela Miller [00:08:31] So I think, well, so on a macro level public education is the great equalizer. [00:08:36] I mean we all know that, that's why we got into this profession in the first place. [00:08:41] At a micro level, similar to Chris's response, I try and get into a school or a classroom once a month, that's my goal is to get in, even if it is for an hour or a full day, one of my greatest joys was visiting Mt. [00:08:54] Vernon school district and the dual language program up there last year. [00:08:59] Seeing and spending an entire day in a school, getting to go classroom by classroom, meet every teacher in the school, visit with the ASB leaders during the school day was probably one of the highlights of my year last year. [00:09:17] So it's that intentionality, bringing the classroom as much as possible and it's one thing we've actually embedded inside of the work that we're doing with educational service districts. [00:09:29] So we shifted the work to this year having a deep and intentional work around students with disabilities. [00:09:36] And so instead of the system leaders just coming together we invite a school district and a principal and a staff to come in and present to us around inclusive practices, for example. [00:09:48] So I think you have to be intentional about making that connection with schools otherwise you sometimes lose some of that focus at the state level. Scott Seaman [00:09:59] Well you've both been instrumental in changing the perception public education around how we grade schools, and I think a lot of our energy has been focused on finding those schools who are doing poorly and and making the public aware of that. [00:10:15] So your example of going to Mt. [00:10:16] Vernon is something that we strive for here at AWSP, how do we find those exemplar schools or systems where magic is happening and it's not a pocket of excellence in a school but it's this systemic example of excellence. [00:10:34] What do we do as a system to find those and highlight those better? Chris Reykdal [00:10:39] Well I think there's a network of pretty amazing building leaders who know that work and should be proud of it and keep bringing that both to their peers and their profession, to their superintendents, to OSPI, to policymakers, so there is some channel for that. [00:10:51] We obviously have a mandate and a want to look at data. [00:10:55] So we want to make sure it bears out in results. [00:10:57] So we’re starting to get some nice longevity to our new metrics and then we have to tell that story. [00:11:03] We do think it's a responsibility of ours not to talk about failing schools or the lowest 5 percent of schools although the federal law requires us to identify them. [00:11:11] It's more about, hey there are 5 percent of our schools most in need of support. [00:11:15] And even within those schools there's often something that's a really powerful thing occurring, and mostly based on historic data we can absolutely predict these those 5 percent will be because it's actually a larger function of community poverty than it is necessarily the leadership in the building. [00:11:31] So we get a chance to lift that up bring them better resources and better practices talk about what they do well and be candid about where there's got to be improvement. [00:11:40] But mostly our job is to elevate this question, fight for resources, get it into regions so that in the ESD area a school that needs support or is seeking to improve has peers and colleagues in the area because there's always something amazing happening somewhere nearby. [00:11:57] It's nothing that we have to invent in Olympia. Michaela Miller [00:12:00] One of the ways we're practically doing that is, kind of, last year we launched of course the Washington State improvement framework based on the federal law and our own Washington state context, and the framework serves as a launching pad. [00:12:15] But at the same time we're redesigning our school recognition program. [00:12:19] And so the way the intentionality with our new school recognition program which will be launched in our first iteration at the end of this school year will be focused exactly on that. [00:12:31] So elevating not just state level data and how they've improved but also next year diving deep into school districts and having them elevate the great works programs and practices that they're doing at the local level to try and say these are schools that really are recognized for the kind of recognition that we want to see across the state. [00:12:53] So that's a way that we're kind of shifting the narrative from failing schools to actually a lot of these schools are doing incredible work making incredible improvements over time. [00:13:05] And I would also say that, back to the Mt. [00:13:08] Vernon example, not to dwell on that too much, but that took eight years of development. [00:13:14] So you know I like the concept of turnaround but some turnarounds take longer than others. [00:13:19] And so I think being patient and being able to resource the kinds of change that we want to see in the system is where our priority is. Scott Seaman [00:13:27] Yeah. [00:13:28] Well we're big fans of consistent, sustainable, highly effective leadership in buildings, and we would say we're big fans of that at OSPI. [00:13:38] So, if you think about, back to your comment of 5 or 10 years down the road, what puts a smile on your face when you picture our system five years from now as a result of your leadership or your team's leadership or your team's vision? [00:13:52] What puts a smile on your face? Chris Reykdal [00:13:55] So for me it's a combination of knowing we identified things really through listening early on. [00:14:01] Both survey work from the system, the public, our budget requests reflected a significant outreach to the public as well, capturing those things that were passions of people, so multiple pathways to graduation, a focus on students with disabilities, bringing a significantly more sophisticated racial equity lens to the work, second language so both celebrating bilingualism and celebrating language but also supporting our students who are English language struggling at this point. [00:14:30] So I think we saw things early on through listening, that allowed us to go after them and we've seen policy change in those areas, grad bills passing and additional expansion of these programs, big investments. [00:14:42] That excites me that five years from now we put the building blocks in place that I think whoever comes and goes knows where we're at. [00:14:50] They know where we're going. [00:14:51] It's not dictated to us from the outside or another state or Washington D.C. [00:14:55] It's not dictated by folks who are trying to reform the system in a narrow way. [00:15:00] It's big picture stuff because we're educators at heart and we came to the work to say what do students need and how do we support districts to do that, and it is things like you know, fundamental learning objectives, it is civic engagement which really wasn't on our radar very much. [00:15:16] It's multiple pathways to graduation so we honor work as much as we do pathways to universities. [00:15:21] I'm very excited about what we've built. [00:15:23] It's a derivative of listening to the system and while nothing moves fast enough for folks who are anxious to have it move I'm really proud of the steps so far that we've helped put in place and those will sustain. [00:15:36] Our job is to be prepared for any financial risk that comes to the state, so that even if we're not growing at the rate that we're growing financially we can still keep the focus on those things. Michaela Miller [00:15:47] I think from an internal perspective to putting the compliance type of pressure on the right points. [00:15:55] So putting compliance pressure on things around race and equity and then backing off and letting innovation happen at the local level. [00:16:03] So an example of that is Pasco, where they're looking at full dual language across all of their grade bands over the next couple of years, being able to support that kind of innovation and actually at the same time backing off on some of the compliance pieces. [00:16:19] So shifting the agency's work from just compliance which is absolutely imperative around some issues to really aiming towards support and how do we support the districts and principals to get there. Scott Seaman [00:16:34] Great example. [00:16:36] Anything else from OSPI’s perspective that you'd like to share before I change topics on you? Michaela Miller [00:16:45] No I think it's a, you know, it's a big organization. [00:16:49] I just had the opportunity to be with five states in our region, Alaska, Idaho, Montana, Oregon and Washington and by all accounts were definitely the biggest of those five states. [00:17:04] But to see how far we've taken our education system in Washington not to disparage any of the states but the capacity we have is just the right size. [00:17:19] We're not huge like California or New York, but we are the right size to be able to have system level state leadership actually impact the system. [00:17:30] So I think that's that's an exciting, that brings along a lot of joy because you're actually able to know a lot of people across the state and really be able to impact the kind of change that you want to see. [00:17:43] The other thing is empowering educators. [00:17:46] So that means really elevating the voices of teachers and school building leaders so that they can actually impact policy as well. Scott Seaman [00:17:57] Well let's shift gears and talk about the session. [00:18:01] And because this isn't an eight hour show we'll maybe narrow the conversation to — if you were to identify one or two things that you're most excited about that are either sitting on the governor's desk or about to be on the governor's desk, that could really reform and refresh and put the system on the right path. [00:18:22] What would those be? Chris Reykdal [00:18:25] Well we have a pretty… we've a pretty powerful ability to work with legislators year round so we knew the session would probably be narrower than most of the school districts wanted. [00:18:36] They probably wanted to revisit of regionalization or revisit a state salary schedules and all very sincere things based on some of the struggles that they faced in the last year but that truly was not going to be in the cards, and we tried to signal that as an organization as say no this is the time now to take the structure we have and make some fixes, but now we get to talk about kids again. [00:18:55] You know the purpose of this was not to solve a court case or to get money. [00:18:59] Those are a means to supporting students. [00:19:01] So 1599 is a huge highlight for us, we've written versions of this bill in the last two years we've made some progress two years ago. [00:19:09] It effectively says we will not use a single assessment to evaluate the success of kids as they walk out of our buildings for graduation. [00:19:16] We moved the test to 10th grade, the last assessment from 11th to 10th grade for math and ELA two years ago, and this latest legislation is going to effectively say yeah get your credits but flex up the 24, it can be as little as 22, mostly giving that control the principals locally who see kids and work with them every day and understand their needs. [00:19:35] Build out those high school and beyond plans and hopefully for thousands of students build a robust plan to graduation that's course based. [00:19:42] I'm going to take this sequence of courses because I want to be a firefighter or veterinary tech or I want to be a nursing student or whatever their career path might be. [00:19:52] It's not about getting over an assessment that is largely mirroring college admissions, although we want lots of kids to go to college. [00:19:59] It's about what are you passionate about as a student, what courses do we offer in our school or through technology or through regional approaches that gets you progress? [00:20:10] We're now going to evaluate schools based on whether they're helping kids build momentum, not pass tests. [00:20:16] And that is really exciting, it is a massively bipartisan. [00:20:19] That's the part that is so misunderstood is that for the better part of two years this is Democrats, Republicans, House and Senate, there's just so much want not to lower standards, which is the beauty of it, but to open up pathways and allow kids to demonstrate their proficiency and their next step in ways other than a standardized test. [00:20:37] And it's gonna be a game changer for our state, and Michaela has helped lead that work with a group of folks in our organization and it's been pretty awesome. Scott Seaman [00:20:46] Because our studio's so new I don't have the little button that I can push that makes the audience applaud. [00:20:51] But if I had that I'd push the button. [00:20:54] Yeah. [00:20:54] So I hope the writing notes down; “applause” button. [00:20:58] So is that delinking? Michaela Miller [00:21:02] That's a great question and that's actually, we're talking about the kind of FAQ that we're gonna be putting out as soon as the governor signs the bill. [00:21:14] We're gonna have an FAQ that kind of goes deeper into it. [00:21:17] I think the conversation over the last couple of years has been this binary delink or not to delink, and that conversation has been kind of at the forefront and we put a different way of spinning that, which is yeah we're going to delink and the student should have a pathway in there 11th and 12th grade that leads to something post-secondary, whether it's college or career there is something that they’re on deck for, so to speak, as they get out of and graduate from high school. [00:21:50] So it does delink from the state assessment but it also requires that school districts and particularly this is going to follow a lot on the counselors and principals in the school to be rethinking master schedules around pathways, really talking one on one which is one of the reasons we went for counselors and increasing counselors this year, we know that one to one relationship between a counselor and that student is critical if you're going to create a pathway for a student that is meaningful for post-secondary readiness. [00:22:23] So yes, and I would say that it also offers an opportunity for principals to get really creative over the next couple of years. [00:22:33] And I think we did a really pretty good job of phasing that in so that principals have some time to think, districts have some time to think about what are those pathways and what do I need to do to staff my school so that really is going to be meaningful. Chris Reykdal [00:22:46] Specifically, the pathway graduation option can take a couple of years to develop. [00:22:52] Some comprehensive high schools don't have it anymore, they don't have those CT programs, they really aren't part of a kind of a robust regional approach and skill centers. [00:23:02] They get some time in the waiver that was put in place for the last year or two years. [00:23:07] Moves forward now for two more years. [00:23:09] So any principal watching this any superintend anybody in the buildings now should know that there is absolutely no barrier to graduating a student this year or next year. [00:23:17] And what happens there is a zero barrier to graduating students provided they hit their credit requirements and passed any local requirements. [00:23:25] But two years from now, as the tests sort of moves into the background, we will be challenging schools to say OK, what next step does the student have? [00:23:34] And they can demonstrate that through formal assessment, but for some students they'll say no, I'm going to demonstrate that through a pre apprenticeship program or something else. Scott Seaman [00:23:42] Well I can hear the anxiety being released across the state with our high school principals right now, and their seniors that they've been worrying about all year, so that's a great move for kids. [00:23:53] Anything else in the session that you want to take this opportunity to throw out there? [00:23:59] If not I’m going to shift gears on you again. Chris Reykdal [00:24:01] Well I'll just rattle off a list of very positive things there's a lot of focus on mental health, there'll be additional mental health supports coming, a lot of it will be regionalized through the ESDs, some threat assessment but some legitimate one to one approaches, some of that's coming through schools, others of that will come into community based organizations or county health. [00:24:17] And so there is definitely a bipartisan focus on that. [00:24:20] We're gonna get a record large capital budget this year, both the school matching program but possibly even something we initiated which was a grant program for very small rural districts and schools who can't really build, remodel or renovate because they don't have the tax base to do it. [00:24:36] We think they need support, so those are just a few. [00:24:39] There are so many things going on this year that are positive there will be additional money for students with disabilities. [00:24:45] We are likely to get, but it certainly isn't over the hurdle yet, some relief locally for districts who want a little more levee capacity, but it's been a good session from our perspective because we know what legislators believe the framework was coming in and that's our test. Scott Seaman [00:25:02] Awesome. [00:25:04] Well, do you mind if we talk about principals a little bit? [00:25:08] PLE or PAL, we're here for you, whatever you need, ok? [00:25:11] I always say it's the principle of the principal. [00:25:13] That's right. [00:25:15] So, school leadership. [00:25:18] We're obviously a little anxious this year as we head into districts and their budgets and we're hearing rumors and bubbling of principals being cut, specifically assistant principals first, when districts are looking to make cuts. [00:25:32] You talk about that student to adult ratio, we really believe that principals are on the front lines with the kids who need adults the most. [00:25:42] And it scares us a little bit when we lose assistant principals at the middle level and assistant principals at the elementary that oftentimes those are the first adults that see a kid who is blown out. [00:25:55] So we're nervous about the impacts of that on the system and we love the idea of more counselors, but we'd love to see more principals, and my worry right now is that we lose principals heading into this next year. Chris Reykdal [00:26:09] Yeah it's a diverse state I will tell you. [00:26:12] We see districts whose financial situation has certainly gotten better over the last two years, others most who are sort of neutral on money but some of the money has been more precisely prescribed by the legislature. [00:26:25] So even districts who are getting additional resources find themselves with less flexibility and that's a worry. [00:26:30] And then there are just flat out districts and we put a list out at the end of last year that we thought were the highest risk places. [00:26:35] These are places where the compensation model the legislature picked was was paying at below where they already were, plus they were losing levy… so we share the worry and at this point we certainly see the headlines and some of that will dissipate because they'll do it through attrition and the legislature will actually provide some financial relief that will help. [00:26:54] But there's no question there could be some dislocations this year. [00:26:58] We always stand ready to partner with what works best and the powerful thing I think about you know your leadership and your predecessor is that you've elevated the research question, it's impossible to argue that what matters most in a kid's life is obviously their family first but that classroom teacher, and right there in the building is the principal that leadership the culture that's created… so we have a sense of the hierarchy that ought to be protected. [00:27:22] We don't get to make those choices, those are local school boards of course, but to the extent that it helps folks statewide we message an awful lot about the whole child, which is about community and family, very much about making sure the classroom teacher is successful and very much about making sure the principals have the resources they need, which as a former legislator, as you know, I was sort of always fighting to make sure the principal program was in place. [00:27:50] It is something we got to work hard on because most legislators don't understand the connection between kids and building leadership. [00:27:57] They think of it as an administrator and in the world of the private sector you shrink administration and you grow frontline functions. [00:28:04] And in this case I think it's just a lack of understanding of how much the principal is the frontline function. [00:28:09] So we've got work to do. Scott Seaman [00:28:11] And I appreciate you mentioning the research side. [00:28:14] I mean if you look at research, three to five years to change an elementary school, and 5 to 7 to change a middle school, and 7 to 10 to change a high school. [00:28:21] What we know is it takes consistent yet highly effective leadership. [00:28:27] Layer that on top of the churn ratio and the churn data not just in the state but across the country and then you layer the next part over there which is the enormity of the job. [00:28:39] We are the 911 call center for principals and I swear we take therapy calls all day long because the job is enormous. [00:28:47] So what, I mean if you could put on your dream hat, which is where I like to go, what can we do as a system to make this job more manageable, because it is the best job in the world, but it is one of the most challenging jobs in the system, of principaling. [00:29:04] So what ideas do you have of how we can maybe alleviate some of that pressure and make the job more manageable? Michaela Miller [00:29:10] Well yeah I think I think some of that is already happening from conversations that I've been having with school superintendents, you know, following some of the salary changes and compensation for teachers, there's a lot of that discussion happening right now around what is the role of the principal and how do you look at salaries in conjunction with what happened last year within school districts, and so I think some of that negotiation has to be taking place at some of the bargaining tables between principals and their administrators to say something has to get and taken off of our plate and really analyze what we're doing. [00:29:53] With that is the conversation about what can we do at the state level to alleviate some of it. [00:29:59] And I think there was in 1139 this year there was a lengthening of the time that a principal… that a teacher rather, can be in the rotation for an evaluation for example. [00:30:14] So alleviating some of those things that's where OSPI can advocate for and elevate some of those. [00:30:21] Like what can we take off the plate from the state level and then a lot of the conversations will have to happen at the district level between districts and their administrators to say what can we not be doing that we're currently doing? [00:30:36] Or what do we want to have a laser like focus on this year? [00:30:40] And I think some of that too is having really deep conversations about doing school improvement plans in a different way. [00:30:49] Having conversations about reducing the dog and pony shows and really trying to get into the data part of it, looking at our gaps, analyzing those, seeing what's really working. [00:30:59] So I think at an OSPI role, ours is a little bit limited in being able to have that direct change. [00:31:08] But if there are things that as AWSP moves through the summer, things that get elevated that you can say point to, that we can advocate for, those are the kinds of things we can change within the legislative session. Chris Reykdal [00:31:23] So we carried out a school day task force this last summer, and the entire purpose of that, directed by the legislature, was to better understand the research behind the kind of hours that educators put in, primarily the classroom teacher. [00:31:33] But in that dialogue it certainly became evident to everyone who served on that which had administrators, superintendents, teachers, others on it that the legislature should keep revisiting this question of time, because what we know without question is the traditional classroom teacher sixteen seventeen eighteen hundred hours a year. [00:31:50] It's a full time job smashed into 180 day calendar which makes it very unsustainable if we don't think differently. [00:31:58] When you think about the principal, it's all of that plus the regular you know additional 70 days a year that a regular traditional employee would work. [00:32:07] So I think we understand that this is not a sustainable life in the way it's structured. [00:32:14] I would add that the world of telecommunications has dramatically changed and we'll never go backwards. [00:32:20] It was one thing to be a building principal 20 years ago, when your team and your force were your classroom teachers and you had monthly staff meetings and go forth and do great things. [00:32:31] But the 24/7 ability for families and community members and business leaders and others to get to you and pressure you, it’s sometimes good, these are good communications, but the lack of barrier around that means as your teams know better than anybody, you are on 24/7. [00:32:48] And every after school activity and every dance and every athletic event has some administrator generally there. [00:32:56] It's crass, but part of the answer is money. [00:32:58] The prototypical school model, something we went after this year and we focused on counselors, nurses, mental health and students with disabilities, it would not be inappropriate for us to find partnerships to say to the legislature there are times you just have to pay for things that aren't real popular in the world but they make things effective. [00:33:15] And building leadership is one of those, I think there's some other areas that probably wouldn't be high on the public's radar notwithstanding, you got to have this or you don't get the student outcomes you want. [00:33:25] So we're prepared to partner in those ways and I think as early as next session we could be having that conversation. Scott Seaman [00:33:31] That's great. [00:33:33] We've developed a leadership continuum where we're really trying to grow the pipeline of future school leaders, clear into our student leadership programs, as you know our Association of Washington Student Leaders runs programs all summer long, maybe maybe you were an ASB student, did you go to Cispus in elementary school? [00:33:53] We did, yes. [00:33:54] So you might have attended one of our leadership camps, not knowing that that was affiliated with AWSP back in the day. Chris Reykdal [00:33:59] It was Camp Woskowitz in elementary and then Cispus in the high school for some leadership training, yeah. Scott Seaman [00:34:05] Well our dream is that you know we have this army of students who might just need a little bit of influence to say you know teaching profession is the next great step, or school leadership for that matter. [00:34:20] So our dream is that we're growing our own teacher, leaders and principals right now through our student leadership programs. [00:34:27] And we would consider that part of our aspiring part of our continuum, so we would love to partner, bring all of us, all the agencies together and say how do we do this together? [00:34:39] The Rand study that just came out highlighted specifically the importance of onboarding or principal induction programs, and that if there is a robust intentional program, the survivability rate of principal skyrockets and their effectiveness. [00:34:56] And I would say sitting in my role has been neat to kind of watch this shift happen in this day but I don't think we're there yet to where zipcode and ESD doesn't indicate or dictate maybe how successful your induction is. [00:35:12] Any ideas or thoughts in how we can bring, align the stars around the principal pipeline? Michaela Miller [00:35:18] Well I would, I mean, we have had a robust mentor and induction program for teachers for a long time in Washington, we're one of the places that the rest of the country looks to when they think about what a mentor standards look like. [00:35:32] And as you know we've expanded that to principals as well, so I think investing more deeply in that and getting principals, the hard part is sometimes you're the lone principal in the middle of maybe a 40, 50, 100 mile radius. [00:35:49] And so I think what you all have done which is try to use the virtual connections as well as you can't replace the face to face. [00:35:59] But building that mentor and induction program intentionally requires a lot more work, I think, for the principals than it does for teachers because you just have more mass in the teacher workforce than you do in the principals but building on the successes over the last couple of years of expanding that, recognizing that whenever you're in a new position that those first couple of years in that position are critical. [00:36:26] I mean you'll never get those back. [00:36:27] So good induction programs I think are probably the most effective return on investment that the legislature can provide. Scott Seaman [00:36:39] If we can reduce that shock, call it principle shock. [00:36:44] So I also have this dream that every new principal or newly hired administrator participates in our Launching Principal Leadership program, which is a first year cohort based model. [00:36:56] My dream would be that's offered in all nine ESDs, so regional support, travel doesn't become that big of an issue, it also has a digital component. [00:37:06] What do you think it's going to take for us to get there, because right now, if you look at data we have 200 to 250 interns per year that are out there in the pipeline. [00:37:21] And then you look at our first year cohort of new principals and we average around 50 to 60 people that sit in that what we feel is the best professional learning for principals on the planet, little bias, but how do we boost those numbers, systemically, how do we approach that? Chris Reykdal [00:37:39] Well it's a market and much as we don't often talk about markets in the public sector there's a market out there and we see the struggle in teacher prep programs getting volume, and when that is thin, you're gonna be thin in principal production and those who ultimately make that leap. [00:37:54] So across the entire continuum, all the way to our students, as you point out, what you all have been trying to mature through the research as well is developing this consciousness about how powerful this is as a democratic and foundational tool to our democracy. [00:38:07] Public education is arguably the most critical thing you'd start with if you were building a society. [00:38:15] When you think about it that way, and not just another job opportunity, kids think about it differently young people think about it differently. [00:38:22] So getting them excited, probably some financial resources to our universities to open up the pipeline for teacher prep programs, if you leave that to the market, business degrees and law degrees and in medical degrees certainly have a longer term return on investment. [00:38:38] So it's a public interest. [00:38:40] The state should invest more in those programs, recruit more teachers, consciously put in money for principal preparation and I'd say one more step would be many principals ultimately become superintendents and the focus often turns to managing board relationships, passing levies and collective bargaining which is all critical work. [00:39:01] It can be a little thin in my observation in some of the programs and how critical it is to be that leader mentor for principals. [00:39:07] This is your army of folks in building deploying the vision of the district. [00:39:12] And I think we would be well served by investing in those superintendent programs as well, in a more intentional way about what it means to support principals. [00:39:19] In the same way we talk about investing in principals to support that beginning teacher. [00:39:23] It is this giant marketplace that has to grow and at every step it needs investment and support. [00:39:27] So I think that some of what we can do. [00:39:30] Again, my job will be to take some political risk with policymakers and say it's really easy to talk about more money for students, it's harder to talk about the money necessary to support the adults. [00:39:40] But if you don't do that, you won't get the kid results. [00:39:42] So that's part of our charge for the next 24 months and we're ready. Scott Seaman [00:39:46] And we agree, we see the pipeline as good for a healthy system. [00:39:50] We need people aspiring to be that awesome teacher, who also want to go on and eventually lead a whole district. [00:39:59] Well are you ready for the toughest question the day? Chris Reykdal [00:40:01] Oh boy. [00:40:02] Bring it! Scott Seaman [00:40:03] And we have obviously those questions but we also have questions from our live audience out there, I'm sure that my team is screening those questions before they show up. [00:40:17] So we've got some questions coming in here. [00:40:20] What is your vision for a system that helps rural schools recruit train and retain high quality teachers and administrators? [00:40:27] That's from Brad in Chelan. [00:40:29] And will a revision of the levy cap lead to greater inequities favoring property rich districts? [00:40:35] That's kind of a two for one, why don't we just feature that first one? [00:40:38] Who wants to take a stab at that one? Chris Reykdal [00:40:40] Well, we've always tried to push some things in the capital budgets of rural districts, and very much so on the operating side for years there's been a small school factor which helps a ton for those really small remote districts in particular. [00:40:52] The legislature's decision on compensation was interesting because they now fund an average salary and in some places it was above, particularly in rural Washington it was above what they were paying so they did get a boost, and in other places the new average salary funded by the legislature is below what they were already paying. [00:41:06] So we keep saying that levy is still a very important part of the equation, it shouldn't fund basic and it shouldn't fund the prototypical model but certainly available for enrichment. [00:41:17] The only thing that makes it equitable though is the legislature then contributing levy equalization dollars. [00:41:22] So there's nothing wrong with local voters saying I want to support my community more. [00:41:26] But if they're so property wealthy that they get access to enhancements that are just life changing, which some of them are, then the state should provide that for rural districts as well. [00:41:35] What wouldn't be appropriate is to say because rural districts can't do it on their own no one should be able to do that for their own children. [00:41:41] And we don't really see that anywhere in the country. [00:41:43] So we've got to have a more honest conversation about the role of levies, not rely on them for basic Ed but kind of open them up and then pressure the legislature to fund it for rural districts. [00:41:54] And obviously that means going to your voters and one of the strengths of the system, despite how hard it is at times, is we are a state that calls upon our districts to go to the voters all the time and say here's my results, here's my results, and we're constantly in their attention so that they support levies. [00:42:12] That is a good thing. [00:42:13] Now when you disappear levies we see states where they get so disconnected from the public that the cynicism grows, they don't know what their schools do. [00:42:20] We have to prove ourselves all the time. [00:42:21] I don't want to rely on it as the majority of money, but we went from it being 25 percent of budgets down to 14 or 15 percent. [00:42:28] I think that's a little too thin. Michaela Miller [00:42:31] I think on the rural recruitment, training, retaining high quality teachers, I think that's an intractable problem out there, that it's a real problem for our rural school districts. [00:42:45] I think in some places the market rate salary will take some years to see the results, but that was a huge gain over the last year, is actually raising salaries so that it's in some places it's one of the highest paid jobs in the area. [00:43:03] And so you're going to see some folks maybe staying around some of their communities. [00:43:09] But I also think continuing to expand some of our more I guess boutique kinds of programs and pilots, recruiting Washington teachers so again you're starting with students in the high schools, para educators and really creating pipelines that go thinking backwards and thinking forwards at the same time. [00:43:29] In a lot of places para educators are probably the best group of individuals to think about what are their next steps into the profession because they're probably more than likely local they're going to stay local. [00:43:43] And so training and investing in them that may mean expanding conditional loan programs, loan forgiveness, but those are the kinds of incentives that can help kind of change and turn the system. [00:43:56] Getting information out about that is probably a challenge as well. [00:44:00] Getting information out to the public about that. Scott Seaman [00:44:04] Another great question that came in from Gail in central Kitsap around accessibility for college in the high school especially for those students that come that are underserved, typically underserved. [00:44:15] Any fresh new ideas and how we can break down those walls? Chris Reykdal [00:44:19] Well we've asked for from the legislature and worked with them on to provide this year to really dive in. [00:44:23] We're gonna pull higher ed partners together this summer. [00:44:25] It's gonna be relentless in terms of its pace of meetings, Michaela will help lead that, we spend about two hundred million dollars a year in basic Ed through running start, and a little bit more for college in the high school subsidies, but not very much. [00:44:38] We think the whole conversation about dual credit needs to expand, not just the volume of students in traditional programs like college or high school running start API etc., [00:44:49] but the scope of it in terms of content. [00:44:51] This has been a really robust pipeline if you know you're headed to college and you want transferable credit to your sector or the four year universities and colleges. [00:45:00] It is far less robust if you are a student who wants to go build airplanes or become an electrician. [00:45:05] And really that's inexcusable. [00:45:07] So now that we've got these high school pathways starting to mature through legislation and we're effectively delinking from the test there is no reason we shouldn't be doubling or tripling dual credit in the future that can be very scary for a high school principal because it doesn't presume the student stays, but it doesn't presume they go either. [00:45:24] It's really again a market for saying we have one point five trillion dollars in U.S. [00:45:29] student loan debt what we're doing today is not working. [00:45:31] Preparing everyone for university and sending them into massive debt is not a good model. [00:45:36] We need to start paying for lots of their post-secondary credentials while they're already in high school. [00:45:41] We just need to expand who gets access from an equity standpoint and who gets access from a content standpoint. [00:45:47] So we're poised to grow this a lot, it's going to cause you all in the principalships to think very radically about your high school and its purpose, is it to graduate every student with the same 24 credits or kind of be 23 credits or 22 credits or a combination of work study to get credits or a combination of something else. [00:46:07] The goal here is a next step for everybody that leads to some post-secondary opportunity. [00:46:12] The policy is in place now and now it's a chance for us as a system with higher ed to kind of make each other uncomfortable and get to the policymakers and say we want to spend a lot more basic money in the future opening up doors for more kids. Scott Seaman [00:46:25] Well you're both always so great about making sure principal voice is on your committee, so you know who to call and we'll get you some people help with that process. [00:46:33] The call has already gone out! [00:46:38] Well let's shift one of my favorite questions besides, were you ever sent to the principal's office as a student? [00:46:45] I always like to use that as a warm up. Michaela Miller [00:46:48] Yes. Chris Reykdal [00:46:50] It's not enough. Michaela Miller [00:46:52] I can't remember what it was, second grade. Scott Seaman [00:46:54] It was second grade? Michaela Miller [00:46:55] Yeah. [00:46:56] Second grade. [00:46:56] I probably was talking to my best friend in class. Scott Seaman [00:47:00] So just disruptive talk. [00:47:01] Just disruptive. [00:47:02] It was not disrespectful. [00:47:05] You weren't… Michaela Miller [00:47:06] No. [00:47:06] No. [00:47:07] And I think I stood outside of the classroom for a good amount of time before the principal. [00:47:14] I'm sure Chris has no history of this. Chris Reykdal [00:47:17] Fifth grade, playground fight. [00:47:19] My best friend in fifth grade. [00:47:21] Really? [00:47:22] You come back off a summer you're already sick of each other. [00:47:24] There you are again. [00:47:25] We don't know what happened, but yeah, we got in trouble for a fight on the playground. [00:47:29] And the principal had a little intervention but mostly our teacher Mrs. [00:47:33] Cruz who's an amazing amazing woman so good I had her twice, fifth and sixth grade. [00:47:39] She basically locked us in and said you don't get to leave until we figure it out. [00:47:42] So we stayed after school for quite a long time figuring out what it was about. [00:47:45] So, so good principal leadership and even even better classroom leadership. Michaela Miller [00:47:49] I do want to say that when I was pulled into the principal's office, instead of getting talked to she offered me a candy bar. [00:47:58] So it was an odd experience but yeah I learned a lot through that. Scott Seaman [00:48:03] So the next day you made sure to talk to your friend again. [00:48:05] Exactly. Michaela Miller [00:48:06] Yeah I was like, can I go back? Scott Seaman [00:48:10] All right, so how about, I mean everyone gets the question of favorite teacher, but I always like to follow that question with you have a favorite principal that you can remember and I'm always blown away by how often that question stumps people. [00:48:23] They look at me with a blank stare and others have an immediate answer. [00:48:27] So either one of you have a favorite principal if you think back to your your K12 experience? Chris Reykdal [00:48:32] Yeah, no question for me. [00:48:34] I grew up in a small town in Snohomish. [00:48:35] So you had three principals your whole life for like elementary middle and high and my high school principal, Mr. [00:48:41] Johnson was pretty remarkable I went to school with his son too, we graduated in the same class but, great inspirational leader, always focused on the mission of the school and he didn't let you forget about it. [00:48:51] Had a significant presence. [00:48:53] But my favorite part is I was elected student body president my junior year, and… Surprise. [00:48:57] Instantly had zero hour classes for the first time ever. [00:49:01] So we did not grow with much means so I had a very long walk from school in the rain, often, and every single morning based on a certain level of precipitation he'd pull over because it was on his route into school. [00:49:16] He was always there early and he'd give me a ride to school. [00:49:19] But if it was not raining too much I think it was more of like a less an opportunity for me. [00:49:24] It was only the torrential downpours but he would pick me up and just a great guy, learn leadership lessons on that seven or eight minute commute to school and somebody who might think I model a lot of leadership after his style. [00:49:37] He was a great principal. Scott Seaman [00:49:38] Awesome. Michaela Miller [00:49:40] Well how can I not say the principal that gave me a candy bar for getting in trouble. [00:49:44] That's impressive. [00:49:46] Sister Boss. [00:49:47] That was her real name. [00:49:49] So I think she would have to be, but I had great high school principals, but mostly, I don't really remember the high school principal but it was the assistant principal that I developed a one to one relationship with and Lewis and Clark High School, go Tigers. [00:50:07] And that was, we didn't have high school and beyond plans back then but they created the high school and beyond plan that took me to the next step. Scott Seaman [00:50:16] Wow. Chris Reykdal [00:50:19] We love principals. Scott Seaman [00:50:21] You better say that! [00:50:24] So a final question for you. [00:50:25] This one's an easy one. [00:50:30] How would you identify a system where hope abounds? [00:50:39] I mean if you could look at the system and see hope and whether that's manifest through kids or the system or behaviors, what would that look like for you? Chris Reykdal [00:50:48] Well you all have led on this a ton and we've got a non-profit in the state that you partner with, at least one that I think is doing pretty groundbreaking work and what it looks like for me is putting the spirit and sort of the soul of the child before content. [00:51:05] Because when we have a kid who loves to learn and loves the environment they're in and trust the adults that are there to support them, all kinds of content can magically be absorbed and in the absence of that feeling that sense of hope and opportunity and joy of being in school, then the content can be a bit of a drag. [00:51:24] And so I really think it's investing in kids in a way that's a little different. [00:51:29] And I'll challenge the audience on this one. [00:51:32] It is entirely about us as adults. [00:51:35] This is not a magical thing that kids just come with they're not can actually build hope. [00:51:40] But if we are too worried about national politics or too worried about legislative activity or too worried about collective bargaining, all very important things, when that finds its way in the classroom and it has any kind of a negative tone that is a cue for students to question hope and opportunity and joy and fun and laughter and love and so those are important adult things. [00:52:03] We gotta keep them in check so that the classroom's about lifting up young people, and lunch is about picking them up, and the bus ride is about picking them up and it's not always easy because we do live in a complex world. [00:52:13] But you see those buildings that are just magical, the energy of the classroom. [00:52:17] When you walk into one that has it, it feels tangibly different. [00:52:21] The buzz is different. [00:52:23] And ultimately what's pretty awesome about those spaces is how kids treat each other. [00:52:27] And that's that transformative power. [00:52:29] It's happening. [00:52:30] We have amazing leaders around the state, but you really are to your compliment leading on this question of building hope and the capacity of hope. [00:52:38] Both is this compassion thing but also a neurological thing. [00:52:41] It is a science of developing hope in the mind and it can happen and it's probably the next forefront of what we talk about in terms of a larger school climate question. [00:52:50] We get to be the bureaucratic agency wondering what's next on the school report card, but there's lots of talk about how we'll bring a climate variable into this and that's certainly a key element to climate. Michaela Miller [00:53:01] Yeah I would say having a son who's a freshman in high school right now, one that just…. Chris Reykdal [00:53:08] Both of us! Michaela Miller [00:53:11] And the intense reliance on social media and communicating without getting to know another person face to face, I think, is working against the system. [00:53:29] I think the fundamental core value for every teacher and principal out there is to really know your students, knowledge of students is key to really understanding what will keep their hope alive in the system. [00:53:46] So without that key fundamental core principle of really knowing who your students are, and that takes a class size and a school size and a ratio of adults to kids paramount in that conversation. [00:54:06] Because we can easily I think let this slip away into — oh we can just do everything by communicating online or communicating. [00:54:15] But that one to one relationship between, and knowing this personally from being 13 years in the classroom, you have to know every one of those kids and know what and what makes them tick. [00:54:27] And be able to identify, the minute they come in the room and something's off, you should be able to know that. [00:54:34] And just a gesture or a comment or an “Are you OK?” [00:54:41] can change the whole trajectory of that kid's day. [00:54:44] And so I think one of the things that I hope we never lose is that one to one connection between the adults in the system and the knowledge of the students. Scott Seaman [00:54:57] Well you two have been awesome. [00:54:59] We really appreciate you coming in today and being our first guinea pigs in the AWSP live studio. [00:55:05] So on behalf of all the principals in the state and kids in the state we thank you for giving us a slice of your crazy lives to come here today. [00:55:13] Thanks to our live audience out there for tuning in, we appreciate you and we'll see everybody at our next episode of AWSP TV and we hope you two will come back for another one. Michaela Miller [00:55:24] Absolutely. [00:55:25] Anytime. Scott Seaman [00:55:26] All right, everyone that's it from Scott here at AWSP with Superintendent Chris Reykdal and Deputy Superintendent Michaela Miller. [00:55:33] It's been a blast. [00:55:34] See you next time.