Kurt Hatch [00:00:09] Welcome to AWSP TV. [00:00:12] I'm Kurt Hatch, associate director of the Association of Washington School principals and I'm here with special guest Justyn Poulos from OSPI. [00:00:21] Justyn's the new director of Multi Tiered Systems of Support, or director of MTSS, and Justyn thanks for being here today. [00:00:31] We asked Justyn to come in and spend some time with us talking about Multi Tiered Systems of Support. [00:00:37] It's a hot topic. [00:00:39] We want our members and folks across the state to know what it is, also know what it isn't so we can start collectively making a shift towards implementing Multi Tiered Systems of Support. [00:00:50] Justyn is recently moved here from Wisconsin where he was doing similar work for over a decade and so maybe Justyn can you tell our audience a little bit about what your work has entailed in the past and where you see this role, how you see this role shaping up as director of MTSS for OSPI. Justyn Poulos [00:01:10] Yeah you bet, thanks for having me. [00:01:14] For about the last 10 years I have been, as you said, doing similar work in Wisconsin. [00:01:18] What that has really been is developing consistent messaging, support, training, technical assistance, coaching across the state for Wisconsin for MTSS, really helping schools understand what it is but more helping them to be able to implement well. [00:01:40] So much of MTSS is implementation. [00:01:45] It's really about being able to do it so we recognize it's hard work, so want to be able to support schools and districts as much as we can in being able to implement well. Kurt Hatch [00:01:59] So I think it says a lot about OSPI’s commitment to this work to essentially create this position with this name and to have it at the director level shows a commitment to helping folks across the state, two hundred ninety five school districts, really understand what it means when we say MTSS and to provide the technical assistance so people can do it well. [00:02:21] Because it's a fundamental shift in some things for a lot of schools. [00:02:25] Absolutely. [00:02:26] So to ensure that we all are working from the same core vocabulary, common vocabulary, can you tell us what MTSS means? [00:02:37] We know it stands for Multi Tiered Systems of Support but what does that mean for folks? Justyn Poulos [00:02:41] So MTSS is really a framework. [00:02:45] We often hear it as a program or an initiative but I'd really prefer to just refer to it as a framework and it's kind of the operating system for how we do school. [00:02:57] So what we do is we develop some consistent language, consistent processes and a lot of support for the adults in the building to be able to deliver high quality instruction and intervention to students. [00:03:17] And we do that through partnership with families, we do that through evidence based practices, implementing evidence based practices, we do it through having really good instruction for all students, and then also knowing not every student's going to respond the same to kind of a universal instruction. [00:03:39] Having a continuum of increasingly intensive supports available to students that need more support. [00:03:48] And then we really use data, and using data in two ways. [00:03:54] One looking at data to see are we doing what we said we are going to do, are we implementing and how well are we implementing MTSS; and then also looking at the student outcome data and saying — Is it working? [00:04:08] So are we doing it, is it working, two aspects of data use within MTSS. [00:04:14] And within this we want to increase and engage students, families, community members as partners in the education process with the school staff. Kurt Hatch [00:04:27] So it sounds pretty holistic. Justyn Poulos [00:04:31] Very. Kurt Hatch [00:04:31] And so people are, I'm guessing, wondering about the outcomes that are better when we're using MTSS as opposed to how things are being done now. [00:04:45] I know there's proven outcomes. [00:04:47] Can you talk a little bit about what other school districts, or in your experience how things have shifted for academic outcomes or maybe behavioral outcomes, and can you talk a little bit about how MTSS addresses the issue of equity? Justyn Poulos [00:05:04] Sure yeah. [00:05:05] So I'll speak a little to my experience in Wisconsin around some of these. [00:05:12] As we've both said I've been doing this for about 10 years in Wisconsin and what we've found is the level of implementation is critical. [00:05:20] We have we're kind of doing it and we have we're doing it well and that's that's a critical difference in getting to student level outcomes. [00:05:30] You know we often refer to it as full implementation or fidelity of implementation, is that standard to which we're implementing. [00:05:39] But what we've found behaviorally is reduction in suspensions by quite a bit. [00:05:45] We've academically have seen in Wisconsin benchmark scores, MAP testing, for example, go up; improvements rate of growth go up faster within schools that are implementing well than with schools that aren't implementing as well or are not implementing at all. [00:06:07] And then on top of that what we've found is schools that are implementing the academic and the behavioral aspects of MTSS, doing it across content areas, have more gains in both academics and behavior than schools that are doing either one. Kurt Hatch [00:06:27] Have you heard of a school or a school district who have implemented MTSS with fidelity, and there are specific indicators that help people understand the level of implementation, so they've seen the indicators and they show, yep they are implementing it with fidelity. [00:06:51] Have you experienced any districts or schools who've said I want to go back the other way, and do it the way we were doing it before? Justyn Poulos [00:07:00] I would say not as necessarily a conscious decision in that way. [00:07:04] I think what we've seen more often than not is, this is hard work and it involves every one to do the work. [00:07:14] And what we've seen is if it's not done in a really systemic, systematic, careful way, when we have turnover of staff we kind of lose… we have drift about to where eventually we've seen districts that have had attrition because they're not aware of what it used to be anymore. [00:07:44] But we've had very few examples, in my experience, of schools that say no we're not going to do that anymore we're going to do whatever else instead. [00:07:55] Because when you think of MTSS as a framework and how we operate, we can put into that framework different aspects that our data are indicating as needs, right, so if we have identified certain aspects of trauma as as a big need that we're going to pull into our school, we can do that within the framework of MTSS rather than as a standalone and what that does is it helps create systems that are more efficient and effective rather than we have a team for this. [00:08:39] We have a team for that, we have a team for this, now what we're doing is as we're bringing all that together and we're saying what teams do we have, what data do we have, what teaching opportunities do we have? [00:08:51] And doing it all together as a single effort rather than a number of siloed or disjointed effort. [00:09:00] So when we've had districts really doing it well, that's what we've really found is they're finding ways to make everything more efficient rather than you know we're doing MTSS and we're doing this and this and that. [00:09:18] We're doing MTSS and within that we're doing this and this ans this. Kurt Hatch [00:09:22] Sounds like you're describing the very the structural differences between implementing a framework as opposed to a specific initiative or a specific curriculum adoption. [00:09:38] Very different things. Justyn Poulos [00:09:39] Right. [00:09:39] Yeah. [00:09:40] This is much more global. [00:09:44] But yet objectively defined yet. [00:09:49] So we can define what the systems aspects are to it. [00:09:53] But the actual curriculum or actual interventions may change from one school to a next to meet the needs and context of that building, district, community. [00:10:08] But the framework itself has kind of its own set objective and objectively defined components. Kurt Hatch [00:10:18] So we have objectively defined components which makes me wonder if I'm a school board member or if I'm a superintendent or a director or a school principal or even assistant principal, how do I know if we've met those objectives or how do I measure if we've had some drift? [00:10:38] What tools or what can we use to ensure that we know that it's going well? Justyn Poulos [00:10:43] It's a great question. [00:10:44] So there are some tools that are identified and one thing that we've learned through some researchers across the country with sustaining implementation is that using these tools is a critical component to sustainability to help kind of mitigate that drift. [00:11:05] So within behavior there's the tiered fidelity inventory, it's available for free, it's an online survey that a team takes. [00:11:14] And it helps them identify what's going well, what are areas to improve upon, gives them an opportunity to celebrate some of the work that's happened, also do some really defined planning of where to go next. [00:11:33] So that tiered fidelity inventory is one specifically within the context of behavior. [00:11:42] There is some more global measures, national Center of RTI has as a rubric and tool that looks at MTSS, and then there are a couple other states that have tools that are available, print, take online, Michigan for example has a tiered fidelity inventory in reading, Minnesota has one in math. [00:12:06] One of my hopes over the next couple years at least if not sooner is that we're able to develop guidance and have easier access within the state specific tool or tools to recommend and provide support on. [00:12:24] I think we're just not there yet in the state, but I would start with the tiered fidelity inventory, it is geared towards behavior but it really helps identify some of the system's features of MTSS. Kurt Hatch [00:12:42] So how can school leaders really conceptualize and implement MTSS to ensure integration, because you'd mentioned academics, behavior, because there's a lot of important elements required to meet the needs, complex and holistic needs of each child, academic, social emotional learning, mental health… so how does MTSS help people integrate those things? Justyn Poulos [00:13:14] So I think a few things when we think of teaming structures and we have teams that are looking at the whole child and the whole system, I think is helpful. [00:13:23] So historically we've often had teams that are looking at behavior, teams that are looking at academics, and especially when we're looking at individual child level team that student that's in need of additional supports, if we're not looking at both of those pieces together we're not getting the whole picture. [00:13:43] But then when we think kind of more system wide and social emotional learning, school mental health, some of those aspects what MTSS can do at the school level and at the district level really is it helps to build those avenues of support. [00:14:03] We identify who the teams are that are supporting the efforts across the school. [00:14:11] We identify what the data and what the data systems are that we're using, and we use those systemically across multiple areas. [00:14:21] We identify areas that we're teaching, so when we think about behavior for example we can set behavioral examples that might be keep your hands and feet to yourself right, very kind of set. [00:14:37] But within that, there are skills that we need to teach students which gets at some of the social emotional learning, how to self regulate, so now we're getting into social emotional learning skills that are necessary in order to accomplish that behavior, that expectation. [00:14:56] So within MTSS we can look for opportunities, where are we teaching, not just the behavior of keep your hands and feet to yourself, but the skills that students learn to be able to regulate their emotions and help them be able to get to that level. [00:15:15] And by doing all of that together we identify both the behaviors or academic standards that we're working on, the skills that are necessary to accomplish that, and then we're able to use data and teaming structures to bring that up and support it across the school. [00:15:37] We know at the classroom level a teacher can't separate all these things, we can't separate academics from behavior from social emotional learning. [00:15:48] We have to bring it all together and what MTSS helps us to do is take that from the classroom, kind of that practices, interactions with students level to the system level, to support a teacher and being able to do that. Kurt Hatch [00:16:04] It's reminding me of a conversation I had with Susan Barrett not too long ago, and actually she did an interview similar to this one and talked a little bit about her integrated systems framework. [00:16:21] Are you familiar? [00:16:24] Talk a little bit about that in the context of MTSS so people can understand a little bit more about this notion of integrating it. [00:16:33] I think it's a really interesting topic because it's just to illustrate some of the complexity. [00:16:40] So having this understanding about MTSS and Susan Barrett's work I think can really be helpful to people. Justyn Poulos [00:16:47] Sure. [00:16:48] So the interconnected systems framework is connecting mental health supports in schools and communities to school based like PBIS for example. [00:16:59] And what it does is it gives us the opportunity to connect some of those same things as just talking about, leadership teams as well as data. [00:17:10] But when we think about mental health providers and across multiple tiers supporting mental health across multiple tiers, as we're looking at partnerships with community providers, families, students, school, to be able to support students at all levels and when when we're providing additional support say in some schools you have a mental health provider coming into the school to provide support having that person or those people on teams at all and all levels of the system then helps us generalize and use the same language same support not just when the student goes and meets with that provider but throughout the day. [00:17:54] So generalizing and transferring those skills, reinforcing those skills that are supporting that student happens across all environments and building not just in one place. [00:18:09] We're using similar data points to identify students who may need additional support, we're communicating and collaborating across all pieces of the system rather than having separate systems operating in one building. Kurt Hatch [00:18:28] Yeah I think that was really helpful. [00:18:29] It makes me think of some of the work that folks that are doing at smart center like Kelsey Schmitz and Dr. [00:18:38] Swain Broadway at Northwest PBIS and how they're integrating, under the MTSS umbrella, mental health supports, PBIS, Susan Barrett's work and what you're doing, helping to bring all of that together for two hundred ninety five districts across the state, knowing that you're just one person and we're building the capacity for that to happen but how all those other folks out, experts in the field and in the community are so important to this work, just like schools reaching out to their local resources and their families. [00:19:13] You had mentioned having one person that's a mental health specialist. [00:19:20] What I'm hearing out in the field is, there's a need for that, and then I think what MTSS can do is help people know that bringing that person into your setting can be used with such greater power I guess or influence, not just having kids go individually to that person but have that person serve on teams like you were saying that could help everyone be in charge of school mental health. Justyn Poulos [00:19:46] Yeah. [00:19:46] We want to build the capacity of the entire building to support all students and we do that through serving on teams, we do that through coaching our staff, going back to that it's really the implementation and using all the resources we have in our building, in our district, and our community to help support all students in a really systemic way rather than just referring out to different people but not bringing all that together for this student or family. Kurt Hatch [00:20:19] So I want to switch topics just a little bit. [00:20:22] As you know a hot topic in the state of Washington recently has been the new discipline laws, and people have been spending time and energy interpreting those laws, responding to the changes, and it's been quite a shift for systems across the state. [00:20:43] Can you talk about the connection between MTSS and the new discipline laws and how it can be a support for people who are making those adjustments? Justyn Poulos [00:20:52] So MTSS is really a prevention based model and what we're really trying to do is keep students in the learning environment and keep them able to benefit from the instruction in the classroom. [00:21:09] And obviously have good instruction in the classroom supporting all of that. [00:21:14] But with regard to the discipline what exclusionary discipline is not an evidence based practice. [00:21:21] We know that there are negative effects long term for students that are suspended and especially suspended repeatedly. [00:21:30] So what we want to do is we want to identify students in need of support sooner and we want to provide supports to them sooner. [00:21:40] But in order to do that what we need to do is we need to have some strong systems in place for every student and then, so it's not just looking at the students but really looking at the adults and what can the adults do to better support the students at all levels of the system? [00:22:03] And then how do we help them build the skills up of the students and the staff to be able to stay in the learning environment and benefit from the learning environment. [00:22:15] So early identification and early intervention by really taking a school wide system wide view of what's working, what's not working, and how do we adjust the system so that we're not always putting that on the students but we're really taking a look at what are some ways we can change the environment that the student is in. Kurt Hatch [00:22:41] So speaking of new laws, recently the Legislature made some changes to an RCW or Revised Code of Washington, and it had to do with the new what's called the Dyslexia Law. [00:22:57] And I think that is likely going to have a fairly significant impact. [00:23:04] I think it already is having an impact directly on people's practice and their school leadership because it's quite specific. [00:23:14] And one of the portions that's, I think, very specific has to do with MTSS is, and I'm paraphrasing, but essentially it says students in K, kindergarten, first and second grade, there needs to be a Multi Tiered System of Support in place for all K through 2 students, and it is referring to academics because it has to do with literacy. [00:23:43] But as we know MTSS is an umbrella for behavior and academics at other other things. [00:23:50] So essentially knowing that it's not an option. [00:23:53] People have a couple of years to really implement a strong MTSS system at the elementary school and I'm sure it'll progress its way up the system. [00:24:03] And I don't think there's any reason to wait anyways because it's really a better way of doing school. [00:24:09] Do you have any advice for people who are just starting off with this, what's a good place to start or are there resources or just what are your general thoughts on that? [00:24:21] Because I think people are going to watch this and more and more people are talking about MTSS, and now they're interested in getting going with it. Justyn Poulos [00:24:28] Yes. [00:24:28] So specifically for the K2 literacy I mean it's kind of the same thing that I was just saying with the behavior and early identification and early intervention with strong levels of instruction and intervention along that continuum. [00:24:43] Same benefit with regard to getting started. [00:24:48] I think a few things that I would recommend are, go slow to go fast. [00:24:54] I know it sounds and feels like man, we've got a timeline, we gotta stick to that timeline, we got to go. [00:25:00] But what I've seen many times is schools and districts that try to go faster than they have the capacity to support they put in various aspects, real technical aspects in place without all that the pieces that are necessary to support staff, both skill wise but also just beliefs, attitudes, more than adapt and change. [00:25:30] And they end up taking longer to move further. [00:25:37] So I'd say A) don't rush, Rome wasn't built in a day, right? [00:25:44] But also start with identifying what you have in place, what teams do you have that are serving functions that may be able to be repurposed? [00:25:55] What evidence based practices are you using especially at that universal or tier one level? [00:26:05] How is that going, looking at data, looking at data to see how well our students are responding to the instruction that we have in place, both have like a whole school or whole grade, but also desegregating that and looking by specific student groups, maybe race ethnicity, students with IEPs, english learners as examples and seeing how well are they benefiting from the things that we have in place and using some of that to identify some starting points. [00:26:43] What are the biggest areas of need within the school? [00:26:46] And then I I spoke earlier about the tiered fidelity inventory for starting behavior. [00:26:52] We're starting in literacy taking a look at a tool like that or the MTSS rubric from the National Archives center to identify what are some areas that we're we're doing pretty well in and what are some areas that we need to do to beef up and pick a few and start there. [00:27:14] Get a team together, make sure it's really critical that this is team led, not relying solely on one person to do the leading of it. [00:27:24] Have a team, include your principal on that team and start small. [00:27:31] Pick a few things that you're going to focus on from one of those rubrics, and then in a few months come back and look at that rubric again and see how are we doing now compared to where we started. [00:27:48] Take it again, identifying a few more action steps and just taking a piece at a time and just know that this is a continuous improvement model. [00:27:59] You're never gonna be there, we're always going to be looking for what's the next area that we improve throughout that system. [00:28:07] And we need to really be careful within it of engaging new staff especially as we have turnover from year to year so that we don't have that attrition I spoke up earlier when some teachers or administrators retire and move on to another school or distract her profession or whatever. [00:28:32] Yeah. Kurt Hatch [00:28:34] Well thanks for coming in. [00:28:37] This has been very helpful really. [00:28:38] Thanks for having me. [00:28:39] Yeah I know there's resources out there, you know one of the things that I've discovered is there is so much out there that's very helpful. [00:28:47] And sometimes school leaders just don't have the time in their day to find those so part of what ASWP is doing is committing to having these resources readily available on our website. [00:29:00] I know that if people go to OSPI’s website, search for MTSS, they'll find a wealth of things. Justyn Poulos [00:29:08] Absolutely. [00:29:09] So on the OSPI MTSS page right now we have a list of some providers that can help provide training or support, and we have some resources and my goal is to continually update those resources with new and kind of relevant as the field and the resources continue to be developed nationally is to to make that page on OSPI’s page really a good starting point to find resources. [00:29:43] And we have a webinar series that's monthly, a PLC for district and school leaders and we're going to get that kicked off next month. [00:29:54] So information about that is also on the MTSS page. Kurt Hatch [00:29:59] Yeah, wonderful. [00:30:00] Well thanks again. [00:30:01] Thanks again for everybody tuning into another episode of ASWP TV. [00:30:06] Hope this was helpful to you. [00:30:07] If you have any questions about Multi Tiered System of Support or wanting resources, give me a call. [00:30:13] Kurt Hatch from ASWP. [00:30:15] And also reach out to Justyn, he's happy to help. [00:30:20] Thanks a lot.