Ron Sisson
[00:00:09] Welcome to another episode AWSP TV, we're excited today to have Sue Anderson from OSPI with us who's the director of Educator Effectiveness. [00:00:18] And we've invited you to come down and spend some time chatting with us today about TPEP and our evaluation system and putting the ‘G,’ growth mindedness, in our evaluation. [00:00:29] So, welcome! [00:00:30] We're glad you're here.

Sue Anderson
[00:00:31] Thanks Ron, I'm really excited to be here today. [00:00:33] Yeah. [00:00:34] Yeah. [00:00:34] Good. [00:00:35] Well so maybe just kind of open with our conversation around a little bit of history of TPEP. [00:00:42] You've been in this from the very beginning. [00:00:44] I have yeah, when it started I was actually in a school district, and part of the team, working with Scott Seaman in fact, leading Tumwaters foray into the world of TPEP. [00:00:58] And then I became an assistant principal in Tumwater and had a chance to use it as an evaluator, to be part of that process. [00:01:06] And now it's part of my plate at OSPI.

Ron Sisson
[00:01:10] You spent a lot of time in the TPEP world.

Sue Anderson
[00:01:12] Yes I have. [00:01:13] Yeah. [00:01:14] Yeah.

Ron Sisson
[00:01:14] Well, since you've seen it from the beginning, and you know where we are now and kind of where we're headed, maybe just talk to us a little bit about what have you seen over time. [00:01:24] TPEP has been with us for eight years now.

Sue Anderson
[00:01:28] I think it's been eight, maybe a little bit more than that. [00:01:31] And I think, you know, when it first rolled out I know districts were all involved in understanding sort of the nuts and bolts of it, how is this going to work, how are we going to score things. [00:01:44] What what that's going to, what is that going to look like. [00:01:46] And we also, every district got to choose an instructional framework. [00:01:51] So I know in Tumwater after we were very busy about that, exploring all three, deciding which one we were going to use and figuring all of that out. [00:02:01] I almost see where we are now is a recovery from that period. [00:02:05] In that a few districts in our state already had an instructional framework. [00:02:12] They had said OK, we want some descriptions about what best practice is, in instruction. [00:02:19] And they looked toward Marzano, or SEL or Danielson to describe that, and they had already been doing work in that area before TPEP ever came around. [00:02:30] But other districts, most districts actually, their first brush with an instructional framework was when they were choosing one for TPEP. [00:02:40] I think that has saddled the instructional framework with a compliance mindset. [00:02:48] And I know in some places, you know, the time the framework comes out is around evaluation in conversations and otherwise it's sort of locked in the cupboard. [00:02:57] So, what we're really wanting to do is bring those frameworks front and center and say these are the foundational documents about what we think you good instruction looks like and they should be guiding our thinking about practice all the time. [00:03:16] Then we look at them through the lens, and that is the growth lens right there. [00:03:22] Then when it comes time for evaluation, we say OK so here's the evidence of practice and where does this fit on the instructional framework and it provides that great third point. [00:03:32] So it's not, your opinion and my opinion about what differentiation looks like, or what good classroom management is. [00:03:39] We can see here's what happened and here's how it's described in our framework where does this match up.

Ron Sisson
[00:03:44] Right. [00:03:46] I evaluated teachers pre TPEP, and then post. [00:03:51] It was really interesting when I first started evaluating that, classroom management or instructional skill which were part of the criteria that we evaluated on had no framework, that I was aware of, to talk about what that looked like. [00:04:05] So it really was you and I having a conversation around what that meant. [00:04:09] And what did I think, satisfactory or unsatisfactory. [00:04:15] I really appreciated that both the instructional framework and then the learning focused conversation skillset really helped to elevate my practice and I felt like my conversations with teachers were so much better because we had that third point and kind of a continuum and a roadmap of what good teaching and learning looked like, tools around how to effectively have those conversations around where are we where do we want to go. [00:04:44] It wasn’t easy. [00:04:45] I was in a pilot district so it was a lot of work that went into that. [00:04:48] But coming out the back side of that I was so thankful that between those two pieces I felt like evaluation, and the conversations that happened in between each evaluation were so much more productive. [00:05:02] Which is why I'm excited about this conversation today, because we're talking about how are we starting to see your system move from compliance and logistics to conversation and growth and really kind of road mapping what it looks like to be continuously improving our practice. [00:05:20] Sure. [00:05:22] So, as you think about that kind of growth mindset and how we leverage those instructional frameworks, evaluation is something that we're required to do. [00:05:35] I'm starting to talk about the evaluation event that happens in May and evaluation, the mindset that happens all the time and every interaction we have, every lesson that we deliver hopefully continuously evaluating how did that go what would I do differently, what went well, how do I adjust for students. [00:05:58] So maybe talk a little bit about, how have you seen and what is your vision around how we're really using a framework to think about improvement as opposed to this document that we pull out in September and in May, to say who am I, what's my score?

Sue Anderson
[00:06:18] Well I think it really — I think one of the key things that we've learned in — the University of Washington just completed a report on principals and TPEP, and principals overwhelmingly believe that it has increased the quality of their conversations with teachers but they also feel very constrained by time and the ability to have those conversations. [00:06:49] I think part of that is the idea that these conversations need to be the evaluation events, rather than that ongoing feedback. [00:07:02] A thing that's helped is one of the changes that we made in the WAC actually expanded the definition of observation. [00:07:12] So that you can be collecting evidence on Criterion 8 when you walk in and spend some time in a PLC, or on Criterion 7 when you go to family math night or some of these other things that happen when you sit down with the teacher to look at student work you can be collecting evidence. [00:07:30] It isn't just the old pre conference observation, post conference time that really is time that you're observing. [00:07:39] But I think the other thing is that that time isn't, it's not a hoop time. [00:07:46] It's the very real work of the school. [00:07:50] It's the, how am I growing as a teacher, how am I growing as a school leader, and thinking about that in terms of the instructional framework which really describes pretty much everything that teachers do. [00:08:06] Using that tool for reflection on a pretty consistent basis and I think the thing that's so wonderful about an instructional framework is that you know once you take a look and say OK, so here's where my practice matches up, how can it get even better? [00:08:24] All you have to do is look to the right. [00:08:26] It tells you exactly what to do.

Ron Sisson
[00:08:29] So, kind of staying on that, then who is it that can collect that evidence and collect the information and have those conversations? [00:08:39] I think a lot of times we get stuck in this idea that it has to be the principal, and the teacher that are collecting that evidence and having those conversations and kind of moving along that continuum from a level 1 to a level 4, is that to distinguished What have you seen around the state in terms of how people are really starting to leverage that to get traction around true growth?

Sue Anderson
[00:09:05] I think that if the principal feels that he or she is the only instructional leader in the building that's problematic because there is no way that one person can be the keeper of all that growth. [00:09:24] In places where principals feel like they've kind of figured it out around TPEP perhaps a couple of things I would say probably the number one understanding that they have is that they can't do it by themselves. [00:09:35] They may have something very concrete like an assistant principal or a dean of students. [00:09:41] Someone who can either be taking on some of the evaluation piece or can be doing some of the other tasks that free the principal up to be able to spend more time in classrooms. [00:09:54] The other thing I think that the big resource that's out there are the teachers in the building. [00:10:02] I know that when I was a teacher I was a pretty good teacher and I was good at a number of things. [00:10:09] I wasn't very good at differentiation. [00:10:15] As an instructional leader i wasn’t the best person in the school to lead conversations with teachers around differentiation. [00:10:24] I walked into classrooms where there were teachers knocking it out of the park on differentiation. [00:10:28] Those are the people who should be leading that work in the building. [00:10:35] Sometimes it can be a time saver in the end to spend a little bit of time thinking about each what is the contribution that each person in the building can be making to this system. [00:10:50] What is this teacher ready for? [00:10:53] It might be a leadership role. [00:10:55] How can this teacher maybe be leading on something where he or she is really skillful in it or it might be a next learning step. [00:11:04] I think that can be helpful.

Ron Sisson
[00:11:08] I like that you mentioned that, I think about Fullon’s work and he talks about the lead learner in the building and that as the instructional leader you can't lead at all and probably shouldn't be there are people that can teach and lead circles around what I can do as a principal because that's their wheelhouse and that's their day to day practice. [00:11:29] You're using that same example and I would agree. [00:11:31] I might in my own practice as a teacher I didn't differentiate instruction as well as I could have and should have. [00:11:39] So for me to push in and lead that work doesn't make sense but for me to facilitate that and encourage those conversations and set up structures and practices and really give permission. [00:11:49] That the growth in practice happens in the collegial conversations not in the top down kind of conversation. [00:11:59] What a great way to encourage high quality PLC’s; how do you do staff meeting time. [00:12:07] I think there's a lot of ways that teachers can collect their own evidence and push themselves in their practice without me having to be the one to lead that.

Sue Anderson
[00:12:18] Right. [00:12:18] And it's so much more easily received when it's someone who is doing that work. [00:12:25] Teaching who is sharing that message of how it might be possible.

Ron Sisson
[00:12:28] Yeah. [00:12:30] So kind of moving into that idea then that you know every teacher has something specifically that they're working on. [00:12:41] This idea of individualizing differentiating your evaluation. [00:12:49] And that self-assessment where you are in your practice and where you want to be. [00:12:57] Can you talk a little bit about what you see and what you see the evolution of that looking like in terms of principals being able to facilitate and lead and kind of push that idea of the differentiated individualized evaluation system.

Sue Anderson
[00:13:11] Sure. [00:13:12] I think initially because we were all kind of uncomfortable with this new system it was sort of clunky. [00:13:18] Yeah. [00:13:19] And I think what that led to actually is the principals taking a much more active role than kind of controlling the process because they were the ones who knew how and I think a lot of teachers are like what does this mean what do I do when what am I supposed to do. [00:13:39] I believe that over time as principals have really sort of trusted the power of the framework and also their ability to empower their teachers in working with an individual teacher. [00:13:57] This is where we get into I think the difference between comprehensive and focused evaluations. [00:14:03] But when a teacher is in a comprehensive situation it's like a full physical you know everything's gotta get checked out. [00:14:08] And at the same time it's impossible to focus on everything. [00:14:13] And so that experience can be very powerful if there is some focus to it. [00:14:22] Principals are not able to be in classrooms necessarily. [00:14:28] They aren't there to experience the day to day of what the teacher is experiencing. [00:14:35] To some extent, I think to a large extent it's important for the principal to facilitate the ability of the teacher to do a good job with self-assessment and to use learning focus conversation skills to really facilitate that self examination and to coach teachers around figuring out where they believe their instructional growth can have the most impact on students.

Ron Sisson
[00:15:04] So my might work around the state self-assessment Seems like it can be kind of a bugaboo in places because there are some places where people are not necessarily encouraged to either engage in or share their self-assessment;

Sue Anderson
[00:15:20] Or perhaps sometime even allowed.

Ron Sisson
[00:15:22] Right. [00:15:24] Yet, how do you know where you are if you don't stop and inspect it and reflect on where that is. [00:15:33] Can you talk a little bit about what is the best practice around that; so say you are in a system where whether it's contractually whether it's just kind of the culture or the climate of the district whatever that is that people are kind of holding those self-assessment tightly. [00:15:47] How would you guide people to use it anyway in order for that to be an important tool to reflect on your practice and continue to see where you are in terms of that journey towards improvement?

Sue Anderson
[00:16:01] I think perhaps it's to ignore the self assessment as a thing and simply have a conversation with the teacher; ok, so here we are getting ready to start a new year and we can talk about this later about a conversation that may have happened in May around what we're talking about now but ready to start a new year. [00:16:28] So as you have had a chance to get to know your class a little bit and they're thinking about what some of their needs are as learners. [00:16:35] What do you see as some areas that you'd like to focus on. [00:16:39] As a teacher, as a learner, as the lead learner in your classroom. [00:16:45] I think you can avoid the conversation about any specific tool that might have done that but just what are their reflections on however they have come to that conclusion. [00:16:54] Whether they went into it eval and did a full born self-assessment or whether they simply spent some time over the summer thinking about how they wanted to improve in their practice. [00:17:05] How can you capture that and then make sure that you're there to support them in that learning that they've identified.

Ron Sisson
[00:17:13] Have you seen places where people are getting traction around leading, learning about the framework itself. [00:17:25] I know that statute says that it's our responsibility as building leaders to ensure that our teachers understand their evaluation system and principal evaluators ensure principals do. [00:17:38] But I really believe that unless you really understand your framework it's hard to speak framework. [00:17:43] And it's also hard to think about where do I go next. [00:17:49] Have you seen kind of best practices or places where people really are using the frameworks to generate and drive conversation around quality instruction and what that looks like?

Sue Anderson
[00:18:01] Sure. [00:18:02] I think that in a number of districts they are very intentional in any kind of professional learning setting and pulling out the framework and having it sort of front and center. [00:18:13] This is you know we're going to be working on differentiation or student talk today. [00:18:21] Here's what it looks like in our framework. [00:18:23] Then really making that happen. [00:18:27] The other thing that some districts are doing, just in the last couple of years as people been applying for the TPEP I grant money, some of them particularly those where the principal staff has been relatively stable over the last seven or eight years. [00:18:45] They've brought in framework specialists to revisit the framework let's go through this again. [00:18:50] I mean we don't want to do the whole you know six day thing but where are some areas where we might refocus our learning and remind ourselves of what it really says in that framework. [00:19:03] Some are using the video calibration tools that are now in EVAL but some are looking back at the framework itself and thinking about their own understandings of that framework and then around the work that they're doing with their staff.

Ron Sisson
[00:19:19] Yeah I, appreciate you bringing that up one of the things that we spent a lot of time talking with principals about is this idea that just because you touch it once doesn't mean we're done. [00:19:29] You know whether we talk about what are agreements or commitments as a staff around what our school year is going to look like. [00:19:35] When we do PBIS with kids, we do it every year and we do it a couple of times a year. [00:19:42] Why wouldn't we do that with staff? [00:19:46] It's interesting when I think about some of the districts who were early adopters or implementers of the evaluation system. [00:19:52] When have they really taken time to come back and open the hood and really inspect what they're doing and say, is this way it should be or is this the way we've always been doing it? [00:20:02] What an opportunity to be able to invite some people from the outside to come in and help you reflect and inspect and rethink some of the practices.

Sue Anderson
[00:20:14] Sure.

Ron Sisson
[00:20:15] It's interesting when I work with some of our members, we hear what goes on in the district. [00:20:21] We say are you doing that because you think you have to or is it self-inflicted? [00:20:25] Is it something you put on yourself. [00:20:27] Because here's what the law says. [00:20:29] And in some ways we make lives difficult for ourselves In the TPEP realm.

Sue Anderson
[00:20:34] We've developed over the past few years an evaluation system tool kit. [00:20:39] And we're actually going to put the finishing touches on the June version and pop it out it'll be on the C step Web site until we can make it compliant with the requirements for the OSPI website. [00:20:51] But we've been sharing it out over the last few years and it gets better every time we do. [00:20:57] Inevitably every time we've taken it and shared it with a group of districts at some point something comes up and they say yeah. [00:21:06] But you know blah blah blah blah blah. [00:21:08] And we say well that's a local decision. [00:21:11] You know it's not in the WAC, it's not in the RCW it may be in your CBA but it wasn't required. [00:21:18] At the beginning when people were afraid of TPEP — it’s a hyperbole but when people are concerned about it. [00:21:26] Yeah. [00:21:27] They made a lot of rules around how it would be used to protect themselves. [00:21:32] And also to make sure that it got used appropriately. [00:21:39] I think now a lot of districts are thinking well OK we're more comfortable with how this is working. [00:21:45] And in fact, some of these things are getting in our way and not allowing us to, they're creating hoops that we're jumping through they're creating a compliance mindset. [00:21:56] And what we really want to be able to do. [00:21:59] Every teacher, every principal, every year gets to do TPEP. [00:22:04] So how can this activity become a really important tool in the box. [00:22:13] It's all about the right stuff, it's about great teaching it's about great leading. [00:22:18] How can that be something that we are excited about, and isn't about checking boxes, but something that really helps push things forward.

Ron Sisson
[00:22:28] Right. [00:22:30] When it first rolled out we were worried about the TPEP police and the commando helicopter coming and making sure we comply.

Sue Anderson
[00:22:37] Exactly.

Ron Sisson
[00:22:38] It was so much about nuts and bolts, am I meeting the law, and if I'm not rating a certain number of people unsatisfactory I'm not doing my job and all of that stuff. [00:22:50] And because of that we skipped over the whole concept that it could and should be this organic part of what we do. [00:23:00] My mind always jumps to the phrase we use in our district was just this natural harvest. [00:23:04] What are you already doing that we can stop and take a picture of and take a look at and say, so what is this an example of? [00:23:11] Is this an example of great practice? [00:23:13] Is it an example of something that is solid but I can improve on? [00:23:19] And I think there's a great opportunity for principals to be able to say you know when we talk about what's difficult in the TPEP world for me, I think a really great question to ask is, so is that difficult piece or process difficult because of something we've self-inflicted, we've told ourselves we have to do? [00:23:39] Or is it something that's really in statute and then to start to think about, what do I do about that? [00:23:46] Are there some other practices or some lines of thinking that can allow me to come out in a different way? [00:23:54] I know that the UW study talks about some spaces where principals found that TPEP got easier because they were able to do some things. [00:24:06] Can you talk a little bit about, what did the research tell us about places where principals felt, like you know it's not so bad, it's working. [00:24:15] What was that? [00:24:16] What did people point towards?

Sue Anderson
[00:24:20] I think the most important thing that principals who were not feeling an unduly burdened by it or in fact we're seeing it as a help to them was they did really share the load. [00:24:36] They said OK, so my admin assistant is helping me in these ways by making sure that the stuff that has to happen, those compliance pieces are scheduled and that stuff is ready to roll so I don't worry about that. [00:24:56] They had support from their district office. [00:25:03] They felt that they had colleagues from whom they could learn, people they could share ideas with, thought partners around this process. [00:25:12] They also looked toward their staff for assistance. [00:25:17] if they had an assistant principal or they had a dean of students; being thoughtful about what that person's skills were and where they might best be used. [00:25:30] Then really leveraging the heck out of teacher leadership, how can I get teachers. [00:25:36] So we haven't really talked about the changes to the focused evaluation. [00:25:41] I think this has been a great boon to some principals, that idea that in the focused evaluation your score is already set. [00:25:53] It's what you've got on your comprehensive. [00:25:55] So choose something challenging to work on. [00:26:01] You know my job as the instructional leader is to provide support for that. [00:26:04] Well support might look like hooking you up with the three or four other people in your school who are working on that same thing, and a thoughtful colleague who's pretty smart about it. [00:26:16] As PLC you're digging into that and I'm just cheering you on. [00:26:23] I think those kinds of things not only take some burden off the principal, they deepen relationships, they deepen trust, and they also just make it clear that it's not about the evaluation it's about the growth that can happen during this time. [00:26:53] I think it has tremendous potential, and I think in places where principals have been able to leverage the other folks in the system who can help them they're feeling more comfortable even maybe excited about this opportunity to be able to leverage growth.

Ron Sisson
[00:27:11] Yeah, I appreciate the idea that, as a principal my job is to help to guide you, help to facilitate that conversation around where is it you see yourself heading. [00:27:28] Provide the resources, whether it's some physical pieces or the opportunity to visit other teachers or just connecting the human resources. [00:27:38] And then really getting out of the way and letting the professional be a professional. [00:27:42] Right? [00:27:43] As a teacher I know what I need I know where I am. [00:27:46] I could use your guidance in helping me to kind of see the roadmap sometimes, but let me be the one to drive that car. [00:27:56] As a principal to be able to use the evaluation system or structure I guess to say OK, so let's hit the hit the pause button every once in a while, check in: where are we going? [00:28:06] What's needed? [00:28:07] What's missing? [00:28:09] And kind of recalibrate and then go again. [00:28:12] As a principal that takes some load off of me, it honors and values the professional, we all like to do things that we have choice in. [00:28:21] So our teachers feel honored and respected because they've got choices. [00:28:25] And we check in and we're dotting the i's and crossing the t's in the evaluation world. [00:28:30] We're not having the lead that, teachers get to lead that because they are professionals. [00:28:37] So you and I sit on the TPEP steering committee together, a couple years ago we had this opportunity to really take a look at Focus, and kind of drove some WAC changes around making some things more allowable and taking some pressures off. [00:28:55] So maybe talk a little bit about what is the intent and what are some good practices around, you know I still feel like this whole idea of the comprehensive score carries across and focus for a few years allows us to dig deep. [00:29:13] To a lot of people that still kind of new and not 100 percent sure about what I do with that. [00:29:19] So talk a little bit about from an OSPI or a Leg perspective around, what about that? [00:29:26] What does that look like?

Sue Anderson
[00:29:28] I remember very well those meetings and perhaps you do to where it became very evident to us that the focused evaluation was becoming this really very hoopy thing. [00:29:45] For very logical reasons teachers and principals alike were not necessarily choosing something challenging. [00:29:53] It took more time if you did that and time is always short, but more important there is risk. [00:29:59] There was risk if I start looking at something that I know is an area where I need to grow what's going to happen. [00:30:08] Yeah. [00:30:08] So. [00:30:10] So what we really wanted to do was take the risk out of that and say No no this is a supported growth opportunity. [00:30:18] This isn't, this isn't risky because you've already proven through your comprehensive evaluation that you're good. [00:30:25] You know we're, we're excited you're here teaching in our building and that's not what we're here about now we're about what's next for you. [00:30:33] And so we're excited about that. [00:30:39] There's this funny little thing that's kind of. [00:30:42] And so I think it's really important when that happens to be thoughtful about. [00:30:46] OK. [00:30:46] So what is a good choice for a teacher, for a principal is there choosing where to focus in the focused evaluation. [00:30:55] Thinking about where they feel they would like to and maybe this is based on the results from the comprehensive evaluation. [00:31:03] Or, it might be based on some specific needs that their kids have that year. [00:31:07] What are my students, What are they asking of me right now that I'm not feeling. [00:31:12] You know I've always been an ace classroom manager but this year I've got some stuff that's really throwing me for a loop. [00:31:18] So I want to dig deeply into that. [00:31:21] So there's that whole idea of you know what's going to be meaningful for me right now and then and then what's the mechanism to help with that. [00:31:30] I think the instructional framework at this point is just a guide for ideas and possibilities. [00:31:38] So in my last evaluation on this particular criterion my level performance might have been basic. [00:31:46] And so just kind of putting that whole conversation aside. [00:31:50] But one did the right. [00:31:51] What does that practice look like at the proficient level and what kinds of supports might I want for that. [00:31:57] Or I really you know I felt like I have this but I want to really deepen my practice. [00:32:03] What is the next step for me. [00:32:06] But really using the instructional framework, not to say your level this, but to say you know here's this here's a great description of this and here's some resources that can help you move to the next level. [00:32:20] You know it's funny. [00:32:21] I mean there were some very real consequences in the focus world if you grabbed that. [00:32:30] There are a lot of evaluations that happen where people land in proficient or even distinguished and have a criterion that's still basic. [00:32:36] Exactly right. [00:32:38] You if I were to move on to focus in the old system and grab onto that basic and was still basic at the end of the year there were some real consequence. [00:32:48] Yes there were. [00:32:49] So I'll be able to shift off of that and say OK, we know that overall your practice is proficient or better. [00:32:57] So let's grab onto that piece where there's room for some growth and allow you to focus. [00:33:02] That's exactly what we do with students in our class. [00:33:04] Yes it is. [00:33:05] Right. [00:33:05] We've got those students who are rocking and rolling and a bunch of different areas. [00:33:09] And we don't say OK great stay stay great at this. [00:33:12] We say OK so let's go take a look at this other area that maybe isn't as strong for you because to to get better all around, everything needs to get better. [00:33:19] That's right. [00:33:21] So as a principal then we really should be helping our teachers to understand that this isn't about you not being a good teacher it's about you grabbing an area of your practice that could use some refinement. [00:33:35] We all have them. [00:33:36] Yeah. [00:33:37] And the fact that there's really kind of this hold harmless. [00:33:40] Mm hmm mm hmm. [00:33:41] And so my job is to work with you and to connect you with other people to inspect this part of your practice. [00:33:48] That is going to benefit you and kids in our building. [00:33:51] Mm hmm. [00:33:51] Mm hmm. [00:33:52] To continue to grow. [00:33:53] Right. [00:33:54] Right. [00:33:54] Yeah. [00:33:55] And I think with that hold harmless it's really an opportunity when teachers first shake hands with the framework. [00:34:03] It's often because they're new either to the district, or to teaching, and it's kind of a big scary thing. [00:34:12] As much as districts, many districts try to make that first handshake with the framework be about this is our instructional foundation you know blah blah blah. [00:34:21] They don't talk about TPEP. [00:34:22] And evaluation till later. [00:34:24] It's still kind of has that feeling to it when a teacher moves into the focused evaluation It's just this opportunity to love up your framework; right really get to know it in a in a way where this isn't a scary thing. [00:34:38] This is just important information that's out there that can be helpful to you as a professional as you're trying to grow. [00:34:46] Yeah. [00:34:47] So obviously the whole intent of this is that my practice as a principal that teachers practice. [00:34:56] As you know leading a classroom is to make sure that we're the best that we can be for kids. [00:35:02] Yeah. [00:35:03] So one of the components in our evaluation system is that student growth side. [00:35:10] Where it really talks about, Okay so you're doing all of these things you're a good teacher you're a good principal. [00:35:17] So what, what's the impact on kids. [00:35:21] So built in the 3 5 8 3 6 8 depending on your framework. [00:35:25] Right on your leadership or instructional right. [00:35:28] Are these student growth components? [00:35:33] That seems to be wonky for some people in this state. [00:35:36] It can be a little bit difficult. [00:35:38] People really struggle with what's the right thing. [00:35:41] What should they be focusing on? [00:35:43] How do I know if I'm doing it correctly? [00:35:46] Can you talk a little bit about how you've seen that evolve around the state? [00:35:52] Sure. [00:35:54] The thing I like to to start with when talking about student growth is first of all that's the thing. [00:36:01] That's why we're here. [00:36:03] That's why we have the lunch ladies, and the buses, and the buildings, and the teachers, and the principals, and the district people, and the accountants, and the you know it's about student growth. [00:36:15] That's what we're after. [00:36:16] So it is the most important thing. [00:36:22] How we go about that and how we think about that is is really important. [00:36:30] When TPEP was rolled out the student growth pieces were being worked out. [00:36:35] They came later. [00:36:37] Yeah. [00:36:37] And because of that, I think this is both for good and for ill. [00:36:46] They received less emphasis. [00:36:49] initially the people were all about their frameworks. [00:36:53] Figuring out how to score and how we are going to average and where all those things. [00:36:57] Oh yeah, that's right student growth. [00:37:02] I don't know if we were tired or exactly gun shy right. [00:37:07] What was it? [00:37:07] It was just new right. [00:37:11] I think people defaulted a lot to what can we easily quantify. [00:37:16] And plus we're all about data now. [00:37:18] I mean we have a lot of data out there a lot of numbers that we can use and so let's put those to work. [00:37:24] Hard concrete numbers. [00:37:25] Concrete numbers. [00:37:27] Yes. [00:37:27] Yes. [00:37:32] As I've been thinking a lot more about student growth in the last couple of years; particularly this year it's been really top of mind for me. [00:37:42] The thing is vocabulary lists, math timing. [00:37:50] Some of those little minutia that are gibberish. [00:37:52] Yeah. [00:37:53] Yes that's right. [00:37:54] That are so easy to quantify, are not really. [00:38:01] I'm not saying they're not important, but that's not where the big learning lives. [00:38:06] We're fortunate in our state in that we have learning standards that really reflect big ideas. [00:38:12] Academic practices and finding a way to make student growth about those can give us a lot more leverage with that. [00:38:23] Right. [00:38:24] There was a wonderful speaker, a keynote speaker at WERA this year. [00:38:28] Yemme stem bridge and he had some video examples of three different teachers. [00:38:35] One was a first grade teacher and her big idea that she was trying to get across to her first graders was being reading advocates. [00:38:45] When you're a reading advocate it means you want to be reading and understanding well. [00:38:51] So when you get to a word you don't know what do you do And kids in her class knew six or seven different things that they would do when they got there. [00:39:00] And for her that was the most important thing. [00:39:04] Not only was being a reading advocate going to help kids with first grade but it was going to help them for the rest of their lives. [00:39:11] The middle school math teachers were looking at productive struggle in math. [00:39:17] How do you know when you're encountering something that's challenging; What are the different skills that you bring to it. [00:39:23] How do you view this and continue to move on? [00:39:26] It's a wonderful segment on a world history teacher who for him the big idea that he wanted his students to have was that lack of empathy was at the root of conflict in the world. [00:39:37] And so where you see conflict. [00:39:41] What were people not understanding about each other in order for that to happen. [00:39:46] These are all lifelong skills. [00:39:48] These aren't just good for the test the next day. [00:39:50] They transcend grade levels and courses. [00:39:53] Absolutely. [00:39:53] There are things about what it means to be a functioning human in the real world. [00:40:01] So the big question now with this is oh how we're going to quantify that how do we how do that? [00:40:06] what's the number on empathy measure exactly. [00:40:11] I like to think about some less conventional ways sometimes that people might be collecting data. [00:40:18] It's walking around with a clipboard as you're listening in to students having discussions about the conflict in Kosovo. [00:40:26] You know what were the Serbs not understanding about the Albanians and what were the Albanians not understanding about the Serbs. [00:40:33] Hearing a student articulate that and checking them off for that particular skill but that is data. [00:40:42] That's data. [00:40:43] Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. [00:40:45] It's not a paper pencil test, but it's still data though. [00:40:47] That's right. [00:40:48] Yeah. [00:40:49] What Yemme Stemmorage was doing and showed us in the keynote was video examples. [00:40:57] The first grade teacher was asking her students on video, what do you do when you get stuck when you're reading. [00:41:07] Her students were able to articulate the possible steps they would take when they got stuck when they were reading. [00:41:15] It was just a wonderful example of how they were getting it. [00:41:22] Well OK so how am I going to interview all thirty seven of my kids. [00:41:28] I think some of it is just as we would like our principles to be doing the natural harvest of our teaching. [00:41:35] By leaning in and catching us doing things as we go about our daily lives. [00:41:40] There may be opportunities for teachers to be leaning in and catching their students demonstrating these skills as they go through their work. [00:41:48] And if you have big ideas skills you will see them in evidence because they're not just happening at the moment where you're talking specifically about them what you care about is that you see them happening later. [00:42:04] We are getting ready to move from this kind of continuous evaluation to the evaluation event. [00:42:13] Yeah yes, it's that time of year. [00:42:17] But then there's this great opportunity to start to talk about OK so what about next year. [00:42:22] Whether it's your practice, whether it's some things that you're thinking about with the course, or the subject that you're teaching if you're elementary what are you doing in math or reading. [00:42:34] I think about what you said with the idea of how do we capture that. [00:42:39] We can get there and the student growth goals if we're mindful of that in the fall. [00:42:44] Right. [00:42:44] So when we sit down and start to talk about either heading into next year if we're having this conversation in May. [00:42:50] Or even better yet, when we actually have the faces in front of us that we know are going be our class this year. [00:42:54] Talk about what are our goals for these kids. [00:43:00] Start to talk about what are the goals, how are we going to measure it. [00:43:04] How do we know if we're getting there. [00:43:06] You know all of those things. [00:43:07] If we're mindful about that in the beginning. [00:43:09] Then we can get at some of these kind of bigger concepts. [00:43:12] The math, the reading advocates, or the problem solvers and critical thinkers any of those things. [00:43:19] If we try and capture it now it's going to be really tough. [00:43:23] There's a great opportunity to say so what are these kind of more enduring skills do we want kids to have. [00:43:30] Mm hmm yeah. [00:43:31] So thinking about May, evaluation season if we wanted to really be something that's impactful, not a grade that we stamp and say OK you did great this year or here are some areas to improve. [00:43:51] But really being growth minded. [00:43:55] Do you have thoughts about what that pre evaluation or evaluation conversation can look like or how we use that to have a deeper conversation at some point about what does that look like to springboard into the fall. [00:44:07] But if we really wanted to make an impact other than to be just this compliance thing we do in May. [00:44:14] Do you have some thoughts around that? [00:44:16] I think that I have a few and I think that people out in the field have many many more. [00:44:22] All the things that we're talking about here, there are examples all around the state of people building on what what we're talking about today. [00:44:34] I think that first it's important to celebrate. [00:44:38] Taking a moment to reflect back on where things were in September. [00:44:44] In terms of practice, so all year long you've been thinking carefully about, and working on. [00:44:54] Just to celebrate the fact that that growth has happened is an important thing. [00:45:01] I know it's hard, particularly with comprehensive because, lots of elements I mentioned to talk about. [00:45:09] yeah. [00:45:10] But also make sure that there are a couple, not, five but two or maybe three things that are the deeper part of the conversation. [00:45:27] Staying curious and allowing the teacher to be sharing what they're seeing about their work and their context. [00:45:49] I think those are some important pieces of that. [00:45:53] I think about the the idea of, as a principal sharing my thinking with a teacher. [00:46:01] Hopefully these conversations have been happening all year. [00:46:03] Right. [00:46:07] Having a teacher have that information about what I'm thinking, whether it's through Eval or kind of homegrown documents or whatever that is. [00:46:14] So when we come in for that initial conversation, if I see three and you see three is there a lot of conversation to have there. [00:46:21] As opposed to are there places where we see things differently or are there places where we say so when we look at where do we want that practice to move next year. [00:46:31] Being able to probe with that teacher around what have you thought about, where are some places you'd like to go? [00:46:38] Or what's going to be the most beneficial and have the most impact for students and your colleagues and your families. [00:46:43] Right. [00:46:45] To have that conversation there in that space. [00:46:48] I mean we could spend a lot of time talking about every element or dimension. [00:46:51] Or even if we're focused we could spend a lot of time getting into the weeds on some things. [00:46:56] But if we stay in that space where we're talking about really diving into the things that are going to have an impact. [00:47:03] Yes, yes. [00:47:04] That's the growth minded conversation because they're all important. [00:47:08] Right. [00:47:10] But I would also argue that there are some that are a whole lot more important than others. [00:47:13] Yes, right. [00:47:14] If we're talking about really good instruction, or being a really good colleague or supporting families closing the gap all of those things. [00:47:22] So I think about being able to take opportunities to front load and then to come in and start to have that conversation around where do we go next. [00:47:31] Yeah yeah. [00:47:33] And a wonderful opportunity. [00:47:35] Great. [00:47:38] We've got this opportunity in front of us. [00:47:40] Yeah. [00:47:41] You know there's so much work in the TPEP world that we've covered a lot of ground in the last eight years. [00:47:50] I know that when I was in the building as a principal there were times that TPEP wanted to make me pull my hair out or made it turn a little bit grey. [00:47:58] Aha. [00:47:59] But you know I I really do believe that we have some great opportunities with a system that's got great frameworks. [00:48:09] It's got great tools, with how do we have those conversations. [00:48:17] I think a really nimble state system that allows us to say, is this working? [00:48:25] And if not, maybe what are some changes that we need to make? [00:48:28] So we're really kind of in a cool space in that in some ways we feel a little bit hamstrung. [00:48:33] But in other ways we're also nimble and responsive. [00:48:37] It's this thing that continues to grow and kind of morph and change. [00:48:41] Yes. [00:48:42] Yes. [00:48:42] When it's kind of amazing our framework authors all work in a number of different states and they say in Washington you've got an amazing system. [00:48:54] No one else is really doing this work as thoughtfully as Washington is. [00:48:59] And and that that was how the whole thing began. [00:49:05] I think in a very very thoughtful way. [00:49:10] Well thank you so much for spending time with us. [00:49:13] I'm really excited about this. [00:49:15] It's not always easy. [00:49:17] It's the right thing. [00:49:18] And I feel like people are really starting to get some good traction coming up with some great ideas around how do we make it organic and honor the professionals doing the work. [00:49:30] I look forward to being able to have you back on and really start to dive into some of these concepts that we kind of skimmed over the top of today. [00:49:36] That's be great. [00:49:37] I'd like that. [00:49:38] Well thank you very much for spending time with us. [00:49:39] Thanks. [00:49:40] Look forward to the next conversation right. [00:49:42] Me too. [00:49:42] Take care.