Intro: You're listening to Behind the Ops presented by Tulip.

Russ: Madi, what are you afraid of? 

Madi: Uh, failure. We're gonna be sad about it. Yeah. Not being able to sleep.

Russ: This podcast makes you feel like you won't be able to sleep, or have we gotten much more into a generalized space now? 

Madi: I think we're in a, a generalized space.

Russ: Does anything scare you about this podcast? 

Madi: I don't know. That's, that's a scary question. 

Russ: This podcast is so much fun. I think the reason that you don't know the answer and that it's a scary question is because I feel like I have in my mind all the things I'm gonna ask you. And you have no idea they're going to be 

Madi: just, uh, a pop quiz podcast every day.

Russ: It's just gonna be a constant pop quiz. Like, who knows? We could be talking about digital factories and then all of a sudden just out of left field, you're gonna hear, "what demons are eating away at you?" And then you're gonna feel obliged to answer that question. 

Madi: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm bad at not answering questions.

Well, it's good to see you in person. 

Russ: That's true. We haven't done this before in person. We've done it from a series of sealed rooms separately over the internet. 

Madi: I think that it's great that you can talk to people from sealed rooms across the internet. It's also great to meet people in real life

Russ: I completely agree.

And it's funny how much eating food together is actually a thing that sort of greases all wheels and is social lubricant in all ways. And I didn't realize that over the two years that I barely ate food with people during the pandemic. And then I came back out of it and I'm just, I'm loving the opportunity to just, it doesn't even have to be good, it's just, Oh, we're gonna have a snack now.

We're gonna go get a cup of coffee. I had a salad for lunch, sat outside with another human being. It was wonderful. 

It has a great day to you to eat a salad outside . 

So good. So good. We saw each, we, we did do, we did see each other in Chicago, uh, for the IMTS show, which had been off for 2020. So it had been four years since I was there.

You'd never been before at all?

Madi: No. I actually, I started at Tulip just after they went to IMTS in 2018. Mm-hmm. . So it was always this like mythical huge Disneyland for Manufacturing. Kind of vision for me and I'm really glad I got to go to it this year. 

Russ: That's a, that's a lot to live up to. Did it live up to your expectations?

Madi: It did live up to my expectations. The only other reference I had for a really big show was AMO which is also a machining show, but less software really at that show. I'd say that this show had a lot of spectacle, but less food. Speaking of social lubricant. Food quality at, uh, IMTS can be improved.

Definitely not Disneyland levels. I want Dole Whip at IMTS next year.

Russ: You should, you should have seen what it was in, uh, mid-2000's. Terrible. There wasn't anything around either, so you'd have to go to the food that was on the floor and it would be like a chilly sausage. I mean cold . Not like chili on top of sausage.

That sounds delicious, but chilly as in lukewarm sausage for $46. 

Madi: I was about to say, yeah, that was a pre inflation price. 

Russ: Welcome to Chicago. 

Madi: It is a beautiful day in Chicago. Day 3 of IMTS 2022. 

Russ: Spectacular weather. Great views over the lake. Friends in person. I think people wanna be in the show with their friends.

Madi: Yeah, and that's a happy return from a long hiatus from IMTS., I think the last time the show was on was 2018. And there's a lot of uncertainty coming into this show if people would come back and it seems like people betted on it. Like they're hosting interesting events adjacent to the show. They went really big with their booth.

I think the Fanuc booth is like, has a giant robot arm moving around a red Corvette. 

Russ: Yep.

Madi: Just like cool new stuff and a lot of attendees. 

Russ: I had two things I wanted to talk about. Human connections and jet packs.

I met with a, a guy I only know from the industry, but I became friends with and I'm now close with and I hadn't seen him in person in quite a long time.

And we talked, I mean, we talk shop, but also I found out that we wear the same pants, not the exact same pair of pants. But I feel like that's the kind of thing that you find out about a person when you get to see them and it gives you one more level of depth. 

Madi: Was it, you guys were wearing the same pants yesterday?

Also, listeners, Ross is wearing like emerald green pants. Is it like a brand thing or same pair thing? 

Russ: Yeah. Travel Chinos. We wear the same make and model of pants. 

And I met somebody in one of the booths that, that we have a display in. And this is funny. So immediately she said, Let's connect on LinkedIn.

That's the best way to find me. And then she sends me a couple dms later in the day. You gotta see this. And one of the things she sent was a picture over LinkedIn, person I just met this morning, who's from Boston, by the way.

Madi: Very cool. 

Russ: At a robotics company. She's like, You gotta go see the Fanuc booth with the Corvette.

Sends me the picture of it. So in the morning, meet in the booth, have a conversation, do the badge scan, business card thing, but then the LinkedIn message, so it's the fusion of here's how we interact with each other on the internet. Versus here's how we interact with each other in person, which was always there.

It's just ramped up to a another level at this show. 

Madi: I think that's maybe a sub theme of the show, because we can add to that the, you know, rise of Creators and this existence of a creator's lounge at IMTS.

Russ: Right. 

Do you think that, Do you think it's gonna be saturated at some point? People just screaming into the void.

Madi: Sure. But the, the most interesting voice is always right to the top. And when you get started, you're always screaming into the void. 

Russ: It reminds me of. Early days of blogs, like if you were to write a blog about IMTS today, some people might care, but they're only gonna care if they're already tracking your blog or if you have some other route that that blog rises to the top.

So the idea that you wouldn't write a blog because everybody else is writing a blog is kind of the silly reason not to write a blog. I think it's the same for video and video and audio content now. 

Madi: Also, major respect to the consistency and just creativity of these folks. They like, they have a point of view and they keep showing up.

And it's been nice to see them kind of going around and championing Manufacturing. 

Russ: I don't think it was always like that there, There wasn't a group of people that, there were journalists, but a group of sort of freelance-y, semi-affiliated people who were spreading, you know, large scale, you know, mass communication style information about machine tools and Manufacturing, that that wasn't a thing even as recently as six or eight years ago.

Madi: Maybe it's the aging of millennials into our thirties and early forties, and the emergence of Gen Z that is kind of driving the shift in how content is shared, and also relationship building between people who are making content. 

There's an awful lot of people who 

Russ: are, who are LinkedIn and YouTube famous in our industry who are within four to five years of me in age and like they were in the industry when I started, they just weren't carrying a camera around a show.

Madi: Yeah. Okay. Now jet pack. 

Russ: Our producer Jasmine heard there was a jet pack. She said you guys have to talk about the jet pack and I'm not sure what to say about the jet pack other than there was a guy in a jet pack flying around at the show.

Madi: I think the thing that, as a people watcher, uh, he was going for a while. He like took a break and then he would go again.

And there's a sky bridge that connects at two of the buildings. Cause there's like multiple buildings for imts. I was walking through the Sky Bridge and a lot of people were looking out the windows, seeing this guy kind of like flying around. He looked kind of like a drunk bumblebee, you know, flying around.

And there were so many people that were like, I'm not impressed by this jet pack. I could do that. I can make that. And I was just like, I don't know if this is general hubris or just like the confidence of engineers at a technology show. 

Russ: I could make that and I can. I mean, but you didn't . 

Madi: True . No. 

Russ: What do you think about spectacle at trade shows? Let's talk, let's talk marketing. 

That is such a cool topic. So I think in addition to the jet pack spectacles that are memorable for me at this show, uh, I saw Boston Dynamics's spot, the dancing robot. Uh, and he was getting down. So that was cool. 

I also learned that Boston Dynamics and Sam Adams, and I dunno how I missed it, they did like a Super Bowl commercial last year called my cousin from Boston.

Also will link in the show notes, but an amazing co-marketing exercise that included dancing and beer. But it was, you know, really engaging and cool to see. Obviously Fanuc Arm and the Corvette. And, um, a lot of the influencer giveaways. So my favorite giveaway from the show is like my Manufacturing leader shirt I got from the making chips co-hosts.

Jim and Jason.

Madi: Jim and Jason. Well, let's talk a little bit more about the newer generation kind of brand push by the Manufacturing industry to get more students and young people at imts. I've been seeing a lot of younger folks walking around with future customer lanyards, there are like multiple kind of discovery and student experience centers and events at imts.

It, it really seems like there's an investment in getting people to care about Manufacturing. 

Russ: I'm not worried about the future of Manufacturing in terms of the people necessarily. I, I hear a lot of the folks are concerned about what's gonna happen when we have, you know, boomers aging outta the industry.

But I feel like the solution to, to nerves about the future of Manufacturing is go talk to the people that are young and in Manufacturing now. And if you don't know anybody who's in college in a mechanical engineering program, right now, don't spend your time complaining about what's gonna happen in the future go find somebody that's in that kind of a program that they'll be happy to talk to you and have career mentoring or even just hear what you do as a job or just talk about Manufacturing stuff.

And the people are 1000% out there and they're all awesome. So go talk to them, , and you'll feel a lot better about kind of what the future workforce looks. 

Madi: I, I really enjoyed while there, like getting to talk to people and also just the mix of like, Hey, I've seen you before, or I've seen this before. Like, can you tell me more about it?

I think you can learn so much in person from someone who can explain something to you, even if there's like, resources available online. 

Russ: Did you feel like you came in prepared? You're a striver, so I assume that you've kind of done your homework. What, what would preparation look like? 

Madi: I think preparation was definitely like, who else is gonna be there?

You know, there's, you know, other companies you wanna see, um, who's gonna talk, right? There's people you wanna hear from and, you know, what are we gonna do? Plan A, B, and C.

Russ: I felt like the ability to connect the dots and, and I, this wasn't just in Chicago, but over a couple of different trips, uh, recently getting to run into people who I knew from online and had worked with to varying degrees.

Some of them it was kind of in passing. Some of them it was pretty close and I'd still never met them in person and having repeated opportunities to be back, pressing flesh and seeing these people, It's not so much that I need to work with them exclusively in person, it's just, it kind of goes to the next level when you do have those, at least periodic opportunities to see them.

When I was a kid, I would go to summer camp and I would go to the same summer camp year after year. And I remember talking to some, it was a grownup, right? So I was a kid and this was some grownup that was there, and I was like, Hey, it's my once a year friends. And he was like, That's okay, you can be once a year friends.

And I, like, I was pretty close with this guy once a year. And I feel like the same thing can be true, you know, with your, with your business partners and your business colleagues and the circle around you that can comprise your, your universe. Like you don't have to see them all the time, but it helps to see them. That's for sure. 

Yeah, and 

Madi: I think there's a lot to be learned from like relationships and other people. Yeah, and I think that that's a big takeaway post IMTS on why I think shows are still so important in the Manufacturing industry, even as it becomes more digital, is there's this like, Need to, wed physical and digital always.

Russ: I get so frustrated by the, this is years old now, but the inability to get, you know, a physical showcase experience into a digital space that makes sense. I, and I know there's some technology that's getting, that's getting there, but the idea that, you know, there are pieces that we would care about in the software space where an online, omnipresent always on demo is interesting to us and it does get you pretty far towards being able to ask more detailed questions when you see it in person, or more nuanced questions when you see it in person. But across, across, at least in the general Manufacturing space, I just don't see a lot of movement away from, you know, call us for a quote, come see the equipment, talk to your dealer.

I don't see that moving to, here's a way that you can virtually experience this online first and then get into the conversation, which will be at arm's length, and then maybe we close the deal, you know, in person with a, with a local rep or something like that. There are improvements. They're just much slower than I would've expected.

Tell me, what's the marketing angle on that? 

Madi: I mean, I had a couple of kind of impromptu conversations with people at IMTS that were machinists. and learning like their expectations from the companies they work with was very interesting to me, as someone in SaaS. They like fly out to see, as customers, the latest machines, they get trained on it.

A lot of these companies, like they pay for everything. Hotels, travel. They take them to fun activities like Octoberfest. It's like a very high touch and almost like experiential sales and ongoing relationship building exercise. I'm 

Russ: not sure anyone in that space would've known to call it an experiential sale.

Madi: Yes, this is, uh, Madi does ethnography on machining purchasing. 

Russ: It's a real thing. I know what, I know what experiential marketing is, but I, I don't know necessarily the people that are flying you to, to sausages in Germany, know, know, to call it that. Was this established companies that had these expectations or newer ones too?

Madi: The folks that I spoke with were established and they had established relationships, so they were like a, and I'm not remembering the right names, but like a fab shop that worked with Fanuc and Fanuc would always fly them out. And then when a competitor for Fanuc knew that they were a customer, they would also offer to show them their lines and fly them out.

Russ: I met internet friends who are pretty, you know, they're relatively new shop owners and machinists. They have a couple machines, they're kind of just starting out, or they're, they'd worked for somebody else and now they're branching out on their own. These are people I only knew, again, from the internet, so I'd run into them on Instagram, knew them from YouTube, uh, chatted with them on, on Discord.

Literally played games with some of these people online. Watching the, the possibility that what you're describing is kind of this old experiential selling and seeing the ways that that works on a new crop of people coming in and the ways that it doesn't work as much, but you, I mean, you could really see that some things aren't going away. So the idea that you could fly out to see the equipment, I just don't think that's gonna disappear because the equipment's gonna sit in a shop somewhere and be run in a physical space. So a virtual version of that, it's not the same, and I don't think it's gonna be the same in the, in the future.

But then when you scale that up to the, you know, massive corporate deal making, I remember a story where a, a big defense contractor lost an order to a competitor where the competitor virtually proved out this airframe. And it was a risk on the competitor's part because that had never been done before at the time.

And so, uh, the winning competitor only did, you know, digital flight tests and the losing the losing bid tried to do the whole thing physically, and they kind of poo-pooed the idea that you would ever be able to, you know, prove it out fully to the level that DOD was looking for in a virtual space only. And that sort of like attitude then led to a very significant swing after that lost order where they were like digital, digital, digital, digital.

And it, it led to, you know, five to 10 years of work that I that I ended up doing with this company in the digital Manufacturing space. All in account of that one big, pivotal digital vs physical order moment. 

Madi: I think one of the biggest misses on like digital versus physical is that versus, Right, like in the example that I had given earlier, you should definitely offer digital, free, not gated training and resources to explain your offering. And those should be like on demand available. And you should have a team that's flexible enough to meet people where they need to be met to kind of share that information. Over like a web conference. And if you're committed to only doing an engagement one way, I think that that's where you're gonna lose.

Russ: What do you think about the argument that, you know, if you, if you give away the training, it's valued less and therefore you should charge more for the training so that the customer thinks it's worthwhile. 

Madi: I mean, I think training should be free . Like you want people to be able to use your product and if you're gating them, being able to use it or understand kind of the larger philosophy of it, your product can't be as valuable as an alternative.

Russ: That makes perfect sense. The versus is the miss. Yeah. Don't make it versus make it complimentary. Make it Augmented. You wanna wrap up? You want me to wrap it up? 

Madi: Can you wrap it up? 

Russ: I can wrap it up. The, I think the, the things that I wanna talk about with the in person stuff, particularly coming off of a couple of events, having been there a bunch of times, it can start to feel like pieces of it are more of a chore and more of a drag and less of, of a high impact, high energy, exciting thing.

So it can feel more bad than good. And then you get there and then you realize that it's filling a very important gap in what was otherwise your kind of digital understanding of things. And that kind of fills me back up with, with energy about what does this high impact short term touchpoint, and what does that do for what I'm gonna have to work on afterwards?

And the, the, the many, many, many things that I'll have to follow up on that will take me weeks to months to, to really bring to fruition. That's not something that I see any digital equivalent of. So I can, I can do my follow through work mostly digitally and on the phone, but I can't do the initiation and the high energy conversation with a lot of ideas flowing, brainstorming, Hey, you need to talk to this guy about that thing, and we should work together on those things.

That stuff doesn't happen with nearly the velocity when you're trying to do it, you know, separate in your own space, staring into a webcam as it does when you're in a room full of like-minded people or broadly similarly interested people and it's, you know, it's the samereason why I'm coming to Tulip to do this stuff face to face is to kick off those sorts of, Let's initiate stuff and then I'll scurry away back to my little mousehole , work on, work on follow through for the next couple weeks before I come back here.

Madi: Yeah. Prioritizing collaboration and having access to that like energy I think that you're describing by being in a community of people. 

Russ: Harness all the energy from all the places, squeeze the last bits out of all the things you know. Squeeze the last marginal value out of whatever your resource is. 

Madi: Great, well talk to you next time.

Russ: See you next time. Bye. 

Outro: Behind the Ops is brought to you by Tulip. Connect the people, machines, devices and systems used in your production and logistics processes with our frontline operations platform. Visit Tulip .co to learn more. 

This show is produced by Jasmine Chan and edited by Thom Obarski. If you enjoyed listening support the show by leaving us a quick rating or review. It really helps. If you have feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at behindtheops@tulip.co