2024-05-20 21-40-04 === [00:00:00] [00:00:00] Movie Clip: We're now on full automatic in the hands of the computers. You who are reading me now are a different breed. I hope a better one. I leave the 20th century with no regrets. But, one more thing. If anybody's listening, that is. [Music] It's a madhouse! A madhouse! [Music continues] [00:00:37] Matthew: Hello, once again, and welcome to another episode of the IMMP podcast from the Inter-Millennium Media Project. My name is Matthew Porter. [00:00:46] Ian: And I'm Ian Porter. [00:00:48] Matthew: I'm his dad. He's my son, and I've made him watch a movie once again. Ah. This time we're going back to that, that, Wonderful year of 1968. A good year [00:01:00] for science fiction. [00:01:01] Ian: A good year for science fiction, because that that was also I know that we've watched another in that time, haven't we? [00:01:08] Matthew: We have indeed. I'd say there are two really, really famous science fiction movies from 1968. One of them we did a few years ago, which is 2001, A Space Odyssey. [00:01:18] Ian: Ah, yes. [00:01:19] Matthew: And the one we're doing this week is Planet of the Apes. [00:01:24] Ian: Aha! A movie I have seen in reverse. [00:01:28] Matthew: That's so weird. [00:01:29] Ian: Yeah, cultural zeitgeist means that this movie has a major, major elements to its story and plot. And I've seen the ending as a clip. That is the first thing I ever saw of it because it's so embedded into the cultural like Landscape that the reference to the ending is so important [00:01:48] Matthew: it is and I guess then I'm appropriate that we're talking about the ending first here in the podcast because The ending is what is so well known and and so famous and people have never seen the movie know the ending of this movie [00:02:00] [00:02:00] Ian: Exactly, but then I've seen clips of earlier in the movie and actually I didn't know they were specifically from this movie at first I thought they were from the other grand pieces of the Planet of the Apes as a franchise. I've realized now that it's like, I saw the ending, then I saw the scene before it, then I saw the scene before it, and I worked my way up to seeing scenes from the very beginning of the movie towards the end of me watching anything before sitting down to watch it all in order for the, for the actual podcast. [00:02:30] Matthew: And maybe this is superbly appropriate for this movie, that we're messing with time in this way, and that it has messed with time in this way. Because central to the movie is messing with time, specifically time dilation. Because it starts us off on a spacecraft traveling at near the speed of light with a crew of four, and The one person who's still awake, not yet in, in hypersleep, is Charlton Heston [00:03:00] as Commander Taylor. And he talks about the fact that six months have passed for them on the ship so far, and 300 years have passed on Earth. So everybody who sent them on this mission is dead and gone. [00:03:16] Ian: Yeah. [00:03:17] Matthew: And he gets really philosophical as he rambles into the audio log. He's like a late night DJ getting very, very deep and cosmic. Yeah. Yeah. [00:03:26] Ian: He absolutely is. And he's sitting there in this sleek, pristine ship with all its cool gadgets, being like the chiseled jaw hero of, you know, space travel and adventure, this brave captain. And honestly, in my mind, I'm comparing it to our previous episode where it's like the crew of the Nostromo is in this, this bucket of things doing hard, hard work. And it's like, we got up to space and it's lucky we did. But [00:04:00] they talk like they're kind of working in an office setting with cubicles and corporate mandates. And here, and in this strange reversal, this clean line office aesthetic with pristine uniforms. And our main character starts out talking like he's a long haul trucker at 3 a. m. Philosophically telling people on the radio about his thoughts on the universe. And I'm like, you all need to just switch ships. Cause one of you is about to get into cryopods and things are going to go bad. The other ones are about to get out of cryopods and things are going to go bad. You guys are all, all mixed up between the two of you. [00:04:36] Matthew: And when we were talking about Alien, you raised Big Trouble in Little China as a comparison. I could see Commander Taylor and Jack Burton exchanging ideas over the CB late at night. [00:04:50] Ian: The monkey express here. It absolutely worked. [00:04:54] Matthew: And it's so interesting that, monologue that Taylor goes through, Charlton Heston, [00:05:00] in that it really shows the misanthropic streak that he has. that drives so much of the subtext of the entire movie. He doesn't like people very much. Not because he doesn't think people are capable of impressive and great things, but because they never live up to that. And that seems to be the reason he left Earth, was that he just kind of gave up on it. So he volunteered for this mission. [00:05:29] Ian: Yeah, there's a bit of nihilism to him just to begin with. [00:05:31] Matthew: Yes, and we learn, as long as we're talking about this ship and their, their mission, we learn a few interesting things over the course of, say, the first third of the movie. For one thing, we learned that they launched in 1972, which, you know, [00:05:50] Ian: That's optimistic! [00:05:51] Matthew: Releasing this in 1968, figuring, oh yeah, four years from now we'll have near luminal travel, no problem. That is, that is [00:06:00] very optimistic. And the other is that because of, of time dilation and how much time would have passed on Earth. This was a one way trip. [00:06:11] Ian: Yes. [00:06:12] Matthew: And it was just the four of them. I don't know that they had very good, how do I put this very good genetic and or biological consulting in planning this trip. Yeah. Because he does, the crew consists of four men and one woman. And he talks about the fact that she was supposed to be the new Eve. wherever they got to and essentially created a colony with four people. And even if you're going to try that with four people, your distribution of men and women isn't optimal. Very, very odd. [00:06:53] Ian: Yeah, that's. [00:06:55] Matthew: That doesn't bear too much thinking about, I guess. [00:06:59] Ian: That yeah, [00:07:00] that's like, I can I can dive into the Google searches about like minimal viable population statistics and everything, but it gets really awkward really quick and that's before we even try to apply the what they messed up here, right? At the same time though, if that if this was like a pair of couples going for the longest picnic ever, fine! You know what? They all can have a lovely time, but that's a very different kind of kind of trip than what he implies in a negative way. [00:07:33] Matthew: Indeed. And even at these speeds, they are spending most of the trip in, in hypersleep. Yes. In these pods that they climb into. And just like so much of the design, I just, I, I love the design of the Icarus, the ship that they're aboard. It is so different from the designs we get in 2001, which are all rounded, more suited for spaceflight in many ways. But there's just something about the [00:08:00] speed and optimism that's shown right down to the design of this ship and its interior. [00:08:05] Ian: Oh, yeah. It's amazing. It's a sleek look. It's a very I almost, I, I don't wanna call it ergonomic, but it's a very like plastic and manufactured look. [00:08:17] Matthew: Yes. Oh, that's an interesting idea. Is this, it has no bearing on the story, but is this the only trip of its kind, the only mission of its kind? Or did they manufacture several of these and send them in different directions here? Four fastest ships. [00:08:32] Ian: It's also very Dart like. [00:08:34] Matthew: Yes. [00:08:34] Ian: From the bits we see on, from the outside. It has an outside design which looks reminiscent of like the front of a fighter or a stealth plane in some ways. [00:08:45] Matthew: Yes. [00:08:46] Ian: It does in that sense feel more arrowhead launched from something larger than ship all on its own aspect. It reminds me in some ways more of a a viper from [00:09:00] something like Battlestar Galactica than it does a larger ship. This is more shuttle like in that Which makes me think Maybe there is a big ship full of different darts that it's firing off in all directions and saying, you know, Hey, this is Dandelion 1 firing off all of our, our little pods full of potential. [00:09:19] Matthew: Oh, I like that idea. And it also suggests that maybe there's just a very complicated booster system to get them up to these speeds. Mm [00:09:27] Speaker 6: hmm. [00:09:29] Matthew: But we do spend this little bit of time on the spacecraft with Commander Taylor, and then Well first, and also, space is really trippy around this. It's all these glowy lens flares floating around in the, the inky blue blackness. I love that look. It gives us something to really enjoy during all of the opening credits, which were long in those days. But then things go badly, and we get a [00:10:00] surprisingly long sequence of a crash landing on a planet. But most of it is flying through an atmosphere and the camera turning upside down a lot and going over deserts and things. It's very, very, almost dreamlike , and I'll get back to that idea probably, and eventually this ship crashes in a a lifeless lake in a, a desert area. And this is where things really start to get going. We have had our little prologue about they're on a space mission, but it really starts when they end up on the titular planet. [00:10:38] Ian: And they immediately are woken up, things have gone wrong, the three guys check, and they're okay, but our female member of the crew's pod was cracked, and she is desiccated. [00:10:50] Matthew: Yes, so this must have happened a long time ago. [00:10:53] Ian: Yeah. [00:10:54] Matthew: She never woke up, but the system did not keep her alive. [00:10:58] Ian: Mm hmm. [00:11:00] But immediately it's, you know, okay, get out of the ship. Mm hmm. Opens the door. That's water. Oh, no. [00:11:05] Matthew: Yes, and one of the scariest bits of sound design, the thing that scared me more than any other bit of sound design when I was a kid, we see this shot of the desiccated, practically mummified corpse of this crew member. And we zoom on that, we hold on that, rather, and there's this shrieking noise. And it takes you a moment to realize, no, that's not like a musical sting. That is diegetic. Sound design. That is the seams of the ship giving way right behind them all as the water pressure rushes in. [00:11:41] Ian: Yes, it is. [00:11:43] Matthew: So disorienting, like, wait, suddenly the music is real and it's water and what's going on? It's scary. I love that bit. [00:11:50] Ian: Oh, absolutely. Because it forces you to have as little time as they do to assess their surroundings. By the time he's throwing the inflatable [00:12:00] raft out onto the water, you're realizing it's an inflatable raft and they need it. [00:12:05] Matthew: Yes. [00:12:06] Ian: And they're gathering everything they can, which is not a lot. [00:12:09] Matthew: No, [00:12:10] Ian: and hopping on that raft before their ship sinks into the water and almost pulls them under for a moment they swim to shore with their with their raft and Start trying to figure out where they are and we immediately get the difference in personality across these three [00:12:27] Matthew: yes, and that's very important because they they're all in this situation and we see the different ways that they're responding to it, which relates to the different reasons why they came on this trip in the first place. We talked about Taylor, his, his disillusionment with, with Earth and with humanity led him to take this opportunity to leave it behind. We have I don't remember who is who, but we have Dodge and Landon, and one of them is, he is a scientist, and he just wants knowledge, and this is [00:13:00] how how Taylor susses him out too, and that, you know, , if there's something that is, that is to be known that nobody else knows, he will go wherever and do whatever he has to do to find it out, and then the other is, He didn't really didn't really want to come but he was the golden boy and had all the accolades and people expected great things from him So he couldn't say no and this project was offered to him when this mission was offered But he really doesn't want to be here, especially with everything he has ever known on earth being gone now [00:13:32] Ian: Mm hmm. There's there's so there's one there's a a one that reminisces the past one. That's Wanting to do things steady. And then there's our lead here, who is a Nope, we're just gonna go do it. This is what we're here to do. [00:13:50] Matthew: Yeah, he's the first one. Yeah, we're stuck here forever. The sooner you get it, get your mind around that, the better you'll feel. [00:13:57] Ian: And it implies it really [00:14:00] establishes our lead here as the least hinged of the entire crew. Because he's so starts just like, Ha! Nihilism! Laugh! Way faster than everybody else. [00:14:13] Matthew: He gets the biggest creepiest laugh out of one of his crewmates planting a little American flag on the shoreline. [00:14:20] Ian: Oh, absolutely. This is a man for whom the concept of holding on to something like that means nothing in some ways. He had nothing left for, to live for other than this journey in some ways. In a terrifying nature, Taylor starts out on the longest suicide mission. [00:14:46] Matthew: Yes, that's a good point. This is essentially a way to end his life, end whatever life there was, just by leaving it, just by going away. It doesn't matter to him where he ends [00:14:57] Ian: up. You give me [00:15:00] like a, a noir detective story of like trouble back home and he's, he's taken the job to try to avoid it kind of thing and tell me that's his backstory and I'd believe you. They never established that, but he's got this, thinks on his feet, clever, but easy to anger. In some ways, noir kind of aspect to him and his styling. He looks like he's supposed to be the, the man of science with his ray gun in the pulp fictions. And instead he, he feels like the man who would at first blush, say that's a fool and toss the book out. Yep. But he's, so he's, he's almost the wrong guy in the right place, right? [00:15:45] Matthew: And yet, now that he's here, he has something to focus on that he doesn't have to think about too much, and that is survival. We have to get someplace where there's food and water we can drink. We have to find, you know, the basics of survival, and they've got, like, three days worth of rations. So they [00:16:00] just start marching, and he seems content when he just Has a, the ability to pick a direction and walk and nothing else that he has to think about. [00:16:09] Ian: Mm hmm. He, he, he kind of figures out. Oh, I think we're like in this place this far away from home. Excellent. Keep walking left. [00:16:19] Matthew: And lots of great scenes of astronauts marching through the desert, which you mentioned while we were watching it Capricorn 1. Definitely seems to have visual references to this with astronauts wandering the desert. [00:16:34] Ian: It's very Capricorn 1. It's a little bit It's a little bit Mad Max, let's show the desolation kind of sometimes, especially when they start getting to the edge of the cliff, and there's some signs of something with these scarecrows lined up on the cliffside. Right. And so there's this, well, there's obviously something. [00:16:53] Matthew: Right, evidence of some kind of inhabitation. Who knows what? But eventually they find what? They find the [00:17:00] desert gives way to a green jungle. And they find water. They also find people. The first thing the people do is steal their clothes. And the humans, they appear to be in a very primitive state, and yet they appear to be raiding. cultivated fields for corn. [00:17:20] Ian: Yes. [00:17:21] Matthew: Coconuts. [00:17:22] Ian: And I will say it, it does say so much that these trained and skilled astronauts with all their equipment do not have the concept of when we're going to go bathe off of all the dust and dirt from our hike. One of us should stay guard, and we should do a rotation in this pond we found. [00:17:39] Matthew: Especially since we just passed the giant scary scarecrows. [00:17:43] Ian: Exactly. No, their answer is all three of us at once. Right. The foolishness is very clear there, I will say. [00:17:51] Matthew: So they, they lose their clothes, they lose all their equipment, their clothes is taken and then torn to shreds and left behind because apparently these, the, the primitive humans didn't quite know what to make [00:18:00] of them. [00:18:01] Ian: There's this interesting scene where they walk through and they find some of their old technological equipment, and it's smashed and destroyed. [00:18:09] Matthew: Right. [00:18:09] Ian: And so there's this like, in a way that reminds me of a Nintendo game, like when you start up a game of a, of like a, a Metroid game, you start out fully powered with all of your equipment, and early on you're gonna get hit in a cutscene, and you're gonna watch every little thing you have fall off your armor, and you have to start all over. There was something a little bit like that where it's like this entire backpack full of equipment we saved watch it go away Piece by piece. I don't know what half of those do yet But I think we could have used them [00:18:47] Matthew: and to me the reason why these things were were damaged were destroyed is ambiguous Is it because they the primitive humans didn't know? What to make of them? They were trying to figure out, is there something in here to eat? [00:19:00] Is there something in here that might be useful? And they didn't, and they smashed them in the process. Or do they not like technology? Do they see that as something bad and evil? And the story supports either one of those ideas, I think. [00:19:12] Speaker 2: It really does. [00:19:13] Matthew: Because we soon learn that the primitive humans are not These are not the people who sowed these fields of corn. And not the people who are in charge here, because, of course, the people in charge are the apes. [00:19:30] Ian: The apes. Monkeys! [00:19:34] Matthew: It's a full, a little over half an hour into the movie before we see an ape. And we see them on horseback with rifles and nets and whips. And this is apparently a hunting expedition. They are there to kill and or capture the humans, , and later we hear apes talking about the fact that the, the, the humans are a, [00:20:00] a nuisance and they, they when they run out of food, they raid our crops, and we just have to eradicate them or at least keep their population down. And, and interestingly, the apes also have cameras. They have the little yeah. Hunting camp. And it's very much a. Hunting for it. It seems like it's hunting for sport for some of these apes as much as it is their job to deal with the humans. [00:20:28] Ian: Yes, and their, their technological level is a little all over the place from what we see. Their rifles are one style, their saddles and horses have a bit of a difference, their clothing has a third. It's an amalgam, which doesn't quite put the ape society in any one time period equivalent to human society. It's this, it's, it's uniforms that are [00:21:00] cut. In ways that look futuristic to us, but they're made out of materials that look more antique. It's, it's all over the place. It's a variety, and it helps with this alien familiarity. [00:21:14] Matthew: Right. [00:21:15] Ian: To the entirety of what we run into. [00:21:17] Matthew: It's good design in that it makes sense, it's internally consistent, and yet it is, it is new and it's strange. And it's, and it's, it's believable, yet it's, it's unsettling in that way. An interesting point about the technology. This was not the original script. The screenwriters for this were Rod Serling, the great Rod Serling whose original script was also rewritten by Michael Wilson. And Serling's original screenplay for this had a technologically advanced ape society, like late 20th century or better with telecommunications and, and vehicles and everything else. And [00:22:00] the only reason that was changed from what I've read is that it would have been too expensive to film. They would have had to essentially build all these sets and locate and a lot locations and things and rewriting it to give the apes a, a decreased technology level made it cheaper to film. And yet I also. I don't mind the fact that they did that, because it makes more sense when you think about timelines and such. So I thought it goes, it works very well. [00:22:34] Ian: It does. And a lot of the ape technology outside, like, the metal use is there, but it's limited. Like, rifles, or clasps, are these specific things, but everything else is woven in natural materials, and we see that even when we get to their city. [00:22:52] Matthew: Yes. [00:22:52] Ian: Where it's stonework, it's thatched roofs, and We were describing before the interior of the [00:23:00] ship. That Taylor arrived in, was this sleek-lined, modernist, manufactured sort of style. But the ape societies are a lot of, like pit style amphitheaters, kind of craters in the ground. And there are these giant Dome topped buildings with central support columns or multiple little sidewall support columns. Yep. There's a lot of, like, it's not just tree styling, but there's some other natural styling which, in retrospective context, makes sense based on what would be the natural environment they were mimicking in their Physical environment as society recreation. [00:23:44] Matthew: Yes, there's no sharp lines to anything. Everything is curved. One building flows into the next. It's a great contrast to what we saw with the human spaceship. And that, in that respect, it reminds me of what we were talking about in terms of alien. The [00:24:00] very different design vocabulary between the Nostromo and the alien and where they found the alien eggs. [00:24:07] Ian: Yes. [00:24:08] Matthew: The, the very fact that these are so different is unsettling. There's nothing we can't figure out. There's nothing whose function isn't clear in the ape society, in the ape civilization. It's just not what we would expect to see. [00:24:22] Ian: But Taylor is captured. Meanwhile one of his, one of his buddies is shot and the other one is taken in a different direction. Right. But Taylor's been lucky enough to be captured and taken for scientific experimentation. [00:24:37] Matthew: But he's been shot in the throat. So he cannot speak. He's, he's injured in a, in a very specific way. So he can't talk, but then neither can any of the other humans they have encountered. [00:24:50] Ian: Yeah, and no one can say anything. [00:24:52] Matthew: They have no capability of speech. But the, the apes do, and conveniently, it's a movie, of course, the apes speak [00:25:00] in English, and they can write and read English. [00:25:02] Ian: Exactly. [00:25:03] Matthew: But, yeah, they, they think he's just another human. And he's taken for experimentation, but there are, there are different kinds of scientists with different interests in ape society. Early on, when we meet a couple of these ape scientist characters, they're arguing about funding and approval of projects and things. And it's so, yeah, this could have been a side, a side discussion in a, an academic science fiction movie like uh, uh, Altered STates [00:25:37] Ian: there's a lot of altered states in there. It's like, huh? But, yeah, we wind up seeing him being put in these cages. Still natural material cages. With metals for, with metal used sparingly for locking mechanisms and fixture points. But they're like, really good. Bamboo and woven fabric cages, [00:25:59] Matthew: right? [00:26:00] Although inside we've got this big this big holding area, which is a round curved room with metal cages outside. We've got this dome of like you say, of, of bamboo and wicker with, with metal for the most important parts. It's an interesting use of both natural shapes and designs and also natural material. Yes, and that is maybe just be a cultural development among this ape civilization, which has been around for we learn, you know At least 1, 200 years. That's how far back the the apes date their founding scriptures [00:26:36] Ian: exactly because that's one of the things we kind of learn early as we see the debate between our our lead scientists a Pair of chimpanzee scientists Cornelius and Zira, they wind up running into gorilla military and orangutan who are somewhere between, like, [00:27:00] governors and priests. They are these religious, this is a theocracy. [00:27:04] Matthew: Yes, very much. There is no difference between science and religion and civil administration. [00:27:11] Ian: And that immediately sets up this interesting thing because various. Various things that Taylor is trying to do to get noticed where he's learning are being stymied by pushback, not from the scientists watching him, but from the people they have to report to. Early on, that's immediately established. [00:27:35] Matthew: And it's interesting to note that the particular scientific disciplines of Zira and Cornelius. Zira, played by Kim Hunter, she is what the, I think they describe her as an, an animal psychologist. [00:27:48] Ian: Yes. [00:27:49] Matthew: Which is kind of an un, unseemly, not, not terribly respected scientific discipline here. Like, she's, she's studying humans as if apes have [00:28:00] anything they could learn from humans. Why are you wasting your time with this? And, and Cornelius is a, archaeologist and yeah, archaeology. There are many ways in which archaeology can run afoul of a prevailing theocracy. [00:28:21] Ian: Yes. So Zira is there wanting to learn as much as they can before having to send the humans off to what they standardly do, which is Animal testing, mostly learning neurology by doing lobotomy and dissections of humans and their, their brains. That's really disconcerting and a, a major looming threat early on for Taylor here. [00:28:47] Matthew: Yeah. [00:28:48] Ian: But He does little things because he's understanding what the apes are saying and responding and they start like he's trying It's like he's trying to speak. Isn't that fascinating [00:28:58] Matthew: or? [00:29:00] Zira nicknames him bright eyes because he looks so different. He behaves so differently. Yes He's trying to make it look as if he knows how to talk Isn't that amazing and meanwhile, he can't because he's still got a bandage around his throat [00:29:13] Ian: He starts to try to figure out if he can he sees that they can write and so he starts to try write in the sand but Has to scribble it away the moment that he notices people of the government coming up, because he's certain that that moment, like he gets into a fight, but there's such a risk of being attacked and taken away for that too. [00:29:36] Matthew: And he doesn't really understand that writing is a danger, but the humans seem to, he is like paired up with a, a human female who he names Nova. And when he starts writing in the dirt, she comes along and wipes it out. Erases it. I don't know if she's scared of what the reaction is going to be from the apes, if he [00:30:00] starts to act like an ape. Or she thinks that because apes are mean and evil, writing is mean and evil, doesn't want him doing it. But yeah, this, her Erasing his writing and somebody else come along coming along and helping her erase the writing starts this big fight Which which distracts the apes from the fact that he had been writing but after this fight Dr. Zaius who is like the minister of science and like the chief priest he sees a little bit of the writing remaining and he Scribbles it out because he doesn't want to have to deal with the implications of a human who could write. [00:30:40] Ian: Yes, and and This continues on with him learning a bit more, with us kind of getting this establishment of what's going on, until he heals enough. And he speaks [00:30:54] Matthew: well eventually he gets he convinces zira and cornelius to give him some paper and starts [00:31:00] writing things down And they still don't realize that he should be able to speak that he normally would be able to speak But they think it's amazing that he can write things down and it's at first it seems like a parlor trick Oh the human can write Can write letters look, they almost kind of make words and sentences, then they realize, oh no, he's telling us who he is and telling us his story and where he came from and eventually he's writing reams and reams of stuff for them to read and they're fascinated. But He is still under the threat of this theocracy and Dr. Zaius wants him just to disappear. Yet he manages to escape and run around and that's when he finally, we, he, he was able to speak as he's captured after his, his escape attempt. Apparently he's healed enough to talk. [00:31:44] Ian: But he does do things like tell Cornelius and Zira where he crashed. And they don't believe, cause there's no such thing as a flying machine, so you're lying. And you're saying that you were in the forbidden zone. That area is [00:32:00] uninhabitable. You couldn't have been there. You would have been dead. And there's this, so there's this taboo about going to certain places. [00:32:08] Matthew: Mm hmm. [00:32:09] Ian: And Cornelius is much more insistent because he follows like, Oh no, I've been told that we can't, so I know what to listen. Zira's the more open one saying, No, he's proof that there's something else. [00:32:20] Matthew: Right. And Cornelius has been into the Forbidden Zone. to conduct some archaeological digs, which are very carefully scrutinized by the powers that be, but at least he has some under, some reason to believe, oh, yeah, there are interesting things that we might not know about out there. But in all the while, Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius rejects all of this out of hand publicly. But you can kind of see Dr. Zaius getting more and more concerned and frightened because he believes some of this to be true. He just doesn't want to deal with what it might mean for him and for his society. [00:32:58] Ian: There's a wonderful moment [00:33:00] where having explained about his, his ship Taylor had made a paper airplane, and it had so fascinated Cornelius, but when coming in to find out what you're doing with this, this human that you've taken out of cage and have in this room, Dr. Zaius sees that on the floor and goes over to it immediately. What's this? Oh, it's a flying thing! He stares at it with recognition and then says, There's no such thing. There's no device that could fly, and crushes it. Yes. And that is such a perfect little metaphor moment where Dr. Zaius recognized this and was scared? And then directly said it didn't exist and destroyed it in front of Cornelius, Zira, and Taylor, which sets a precedent for, Dr. Zaius, knowing and suppressing information. [00:33:58] Matthew: And we do [00:34:00] see, it kind of, I think the movie stretches things out a little bit too much, but we do see him being threatened with vitisection, and we see this long trial, this tribunal in which it's decided whether he should be put down or, Zira and Cornelius should be punished, or what should be done about this, this aberration a man who can write and talk, a human. And how it's totally inconsistent with their sacred writings and everything that their civilization is built on. And there are some that gives an opportunity for some amusing bits of parody about administrative bureaucracies and the like. [00:34:41] Ian: It also does an interesting job of establishing, we are relating to Taylor so much during this, he is set up as our protagonist, and so there's moments which are obviously designed to reject him, that stir ire in both the audience and in [00:35:00] Taylor, where the moment he is given a chance to prove intelligence, The test is to cite things of the religious texts of the apes. [00:35:09] Matthew: Right. [00:35:10] Ian: And he's like, I don't know your texts. Well, see, that's a sign. He doesn't know anything. And he wants to try to say, like, I can tell you information that would prove otherwise, but that's not what they're looking for. [00:35:25] Matthew: Right. [00:35:25] Ian: That's actually, that's almost the worst thing. They want to not hear that. Don't give new science. That's not what they want. And that has a reasoning behind it. [00:35:38] Matthew: The ability to speak and learn, those are not signs of intelligence. Knowing what we think everyone should already know, because they were written down for us 1200 years ago, that's the only sign of intelligence we would accept. And yeah, it's a lawyerly trick by the person representing the state in this tribunal. But I was mad about that because I just wanted Taylor [00:36:00] to say, please let me read them. And then I will be happy to talk with you about them. [00:36:08] Ian: In some ways, Taylor is very stubborn as a man of science and this. In some ways, that same walk forward, simple reject the past. Semi Nihilism that we were describing earlier comes back to bite him here where his responses become Aggressive and simple in ways and he does not play ball with them. He tries to To push back. He doesn't he doesn't discuss. He just tries to fight [00:36:40] Matthew: And they, they accomplish an interesting trick here in this balance because it is Taylor against the ape civilization. And yet it's not just that Stark in that all the ape civilization top to bottom are evil. And Taylor is shown to be heroic. We already had plenty of [00:37:00] reason not to like Taylor. He's, he's an anti hero at best. And we see that there are some members of this ape civilization who are open minded and who are interested and curious and compassionate. And they, they manage to maintain that balance where we're frustrated by aspects of this civilization, but it's not just a well of evil. And we, we relate to Taylor as our protagonist, but we don't think he's a great guy. And of course he's going to prevail because he's the hero. [00:37:36] Ian: Yeah, no, he's the guy we've got, not the guy we want, in that sense, but the guy we've got is being, is really stuck between a rock and a hard place, and Zira is such a, like, there is this interesting moment where she continues to be the most empathetic person to Taylor, but every time it seems to [00:38:00] be moving in a certain way. Yeah. extra helpful way. There's this hint of treating Taylor almost like a beloved puppy. [00:38:10] Matthew: Yeah, absolutely. [00:38:11] Ian: That will just undercut it. [00:38:13] Matthew: She's a good ape in that she's an ape who wants to be kind to animals, not someone who regards this human who can speak and read and write as an equal. And yet it's written and played. And I think Kim Hunter does a good job with this. It's played in a way that, that is understandable. In that you see her making progress towards this. And it is, he is literally the only person of his kind anyone has ever seen. And she is so steeped in her own culture, she can't quite break out of that entirely. But you see her trying to take steps in the right direction. [00:38:54] Ian: Yeah, she's, yeah, she's, she is obviously raised in this society and that is [00:39:00] coloring how she approaches stuff, even with what she loves and tries to do. [00:39:04] Matthew: And that's where this movie is sometimes cited as a metaphor for racism. And in, and, I think it is very limited in its ability to serve as that because Taylor is a unique individual. This is not a group of people who are clearly equal to all other people being treated badly. This is a society not under, being able to understand something that is literally unique. A human being who can talk in this instance. [00:39:37] Ian: Which, so it's absolutely, it's very reductive to use it as that, but it does make a very excellent show of a grander, a larger point than the, the purely the racism, which is the society impacting the way a person thinks. [00:39:52] Matthew: Yes, yes. [00:39:53] Ian: And that for, for Zira to, for Zira to actually make the advancement [00:40:00] towards the, the society and the learning and the education, for Cornelius, Yes. who is more strictly to his, his society and his role in what it has taught him. He wants to learn this grander science that Taylor hints at. He wants to obtain more knowledge and improve the advancement of his people. He honestly loves the people, but he is running into problems of what society has limited him with. And he is fighting against the preconceived notions. And it's only when he starts to actually back away from them and assess the why, That he starts to be able to see and put together some bigger picture things which have possibilities which have wonderful implications. He's the one, almost, I almost want to say Cornelius is the one most limited by his society at the start and who grows the [00:41:00] most to question and work to change the preconceived notions of what society has taught him. Be that the potential of humans and This be that the limits of what the science says is possible, be that how to go about learning and what he should assume when he's looking at evidence and data, he is the one who who grows in that sense, especially towards the end of the movie. He grows a lot and almost. keeps a lot more of his growth overall by the end, I'd say. [00:41:35] Matthew: Yeah, they each have different limitations. They're both very curious. They're both open minded in terms of what they will accept to be true or possible, given the evidence that they're, they're presented with. She is limited by her The difficulty in accepting certain things that are just so unknown to her from the society she grew up in. Cornelius [00:42:00] is more worried than she is about the consequences of going against authority, of going against the society. And he is more torn, I, I see the evidence, I know this is, is true, and yet if I say so, The life that I knew and I planned for myself and my fiance, Zira, is going to be gone, so I need to be careful. But because of that, and that is, I think, the reason why he ultimately can go a little bit farther in that direction than she can. In that for her, it's more internal. It's more, Yeah, I understand, but I just can't. It doesn't feel believable, these things about humans being, being intelligent and everything. Whereas for him, once he gets to the point where he's broken enough rules that he knows he can never go back to his old life, Well, he's got nothing else to lose, so he might as well admit to himself all the things that he knows to be true are true. [00:42:59] Ian: There's a little [00:43:00] bit of a weird point where Cornelius ends the movie with a slight bit of that, Well, off to science I go, the Taylor started with. For good and for ill, he picks up a Taylor nature by the end to some extent. Yes. But all of that comes at the, like, Like they, they, they still can appreciate their society, but they are growing past it and they are evidence that the society could grow. Right. [00:43:31] Matthew: And eventually they reach that breaking point [00:43:33] Ian: where [00:43:34] Matthew: they cannot in good conscience continue to go along with what Dr. Zaius and the tribunal want. So they help Taylor escape and they escape, help, they help him escape for his benefit. And also. To go to the forbidden zone with him and they want to confirm his story Cornelius wants to show taylor [00:44:00] some of the things that Cornelius has found in an archaeological dig there because cornelius is a proponent of the borderline heretical theory that apes evolved from a lower order of life. Possibly apes evolved from men. That's like shocking and upsetting to the powers that be. And yet as a scientist, he sees enough evidence. He goes down in the archaeological strata and he sees evidence of A civilization predating apes. Maybe it was human. Yeah. And wants Taylor, wants to see if Taylor can shed, shed any light on this. And Taylor keeps saying he's from another planet, but. Yeah. And that's, that's also an idea that the apes have trouble wrapping their heads around. But yeah, that's the last part of the movie is about this trek out to the forbidden zone. [00:44:55] Ian: Yeah, so we're gonna go to the forbidden zone. We'll stop by. Cornelius dig [00:45:00] site, and then we'll, and then from there we'll use that as a camp to go off to the lake where the ship sank, and I can prove everything to you. And, as they get there, they find that Zaius has followed them with an entire group. [00:45:17] Matthew: So, yeah, they, the, the army and the the administrative priesthood are there, and trying to put a stop to all this. And yet this does give Cornelius an opportunity to show Dr. Zaius what he's found in his digs. [00:45:30] Ian: And everything is showing it, and Cornelius has these theories of what these objects might be, and Taylor walks over and picks up objects and starts saying, Oh, look, it's a this and a this and a that. [00:45:45] Matthew: And he can recognize these as human artifacts. They're false teeth and eyeglasses and a baby doll. [00:45:51] Ian: And Dr. Zaius is there just dismissing, no, no, no, no, of course not, of course not, it couldn't be, I can give alternate reasons for all of that. [00:46:00] Right. Why these are all, these are all from an earlier group of apes. Why would apes have made a baby doll, a human baby doll that talks? That's such a powerful moment. [00:46:13] Matthew: It is. This is not just an ape's version of a stuffed animal. [00:46:17] Ian: Yeah. [00:46:17] Matthew: Because why would you make it talk? It can say mama. [00:46:20] Ian: If it's a human doll, why would it do that? I'm the first human you've had that talks. And that's when Zaius kind of cracks and shows exactly why. Zaius has known all along. And he starts, presenting some of actually the theocracy aspect. that Taylor should have asked to hear the first time it was used against him. Because there's, there's a lot in it talking about avoiding. Various things, and keeping humans from growing too powerful or too [00:47:00] advanced. [00:47:00] Matthew: It specifically calls out humans as evil and warlike and, and murderous. [00:47:06] Speaker 6: Mm hmm. [00:47:07] Matthew: Why would it bother to do that if they were just this pest animal on the outskirts of their fields? [00:47:13] Ian: Yeah, and here we are on the, in the Forbidden Zones, and it's apparently okay, but there's a lot more evidence of human civilization here. [00:47:22] Matthew: Right. And Zaius, he knows this. It's almost, he almost gives the impression of, he knows this, he wishes he didn't. So he wants to save his fellow apes from having to deal with knowing this. So he wants to continue to suppress the knowledge. [00:47:39] Ian: Mm hmm. And suddenly, some of the pieces where certain technological variations, Everything has to be reviewed from the archaeological digs through Zaius and his people. [00:47:49] Matthew: Yep. [00:47:49] Ian: Suddenly, they become this filtering system. [00:47:52] Matthew: Yeah. [00:47:53] Ian: You dig up a piece of technology from human civilization, and Dr. Zaius and his people who know the [00:48:00] secret are deciding whether or not we can give this to the rest of the population or whether it should be buried. [00:48:06] Matthew: Yep. [00:48:06] Ian: And it, it shifts the entirety of what we've seen with the humans doing the writing and the paper airplane as that's actually what Zaius purpose and place in society is. [00:48:19] Matthew: Mm hmm. He's the gatekeeper for this kind of knowledge. Mm hmm. [00:48:23] Ian: He's the gatekeeper, but he says okay fine Taylor you and your your woman Nova take a horse go that way follow the shore You'll see what I'm telling you about [00:48:36] Matthew: and he and he agrees to this because he's been taken hostage by Taylor And yes, that makes the gorillas with the rifles back up But yeah, he gives gives Taylor what he wants but warns him careful about going looking you may not like what you find You [00:48:53] Ian: Yep, [00:48:54] Matthew: and that is what eventually leads us to the the big twist ending that everybody knows [00:49:00] about this movie [00:49:02] Ian: a Statue of Liberty half buried in the shore because it's not been a new planet at all. It's our Consequences of nuclear war [00:49:13] Matthew: and he spent 3, 000 years Earth time traveling to Back around to Earth [00:49:22] Ian: Which implies that the universe is either a sphere or a toroid? [00:49:26] Matthew: Well, you know, it's, I remember my big brothers explaining this to me when I first saw this, and that, yeah, based on, on what was believed and understood about the shape of the universe, yeah, if you keep going in one direction long enough, without turning, you'll end up back where you, you came from. [00:49:47] Speaker 6: Hmm. [00:49:48] Matthew: Very trippy. [00:49:49] Ian: Very trippy. I like the idea that we live in a giant donut. [00:49:55] Matthew: Now, I do a lot of things, a lot of science fiction movies that deal [00:50:00] with huge changes in in civilizations or even more so in big changes in biology. They, they don't really have a sense of time scales to me. Three thousand years is the blink of an eye. Now, granted, there was our suggestions that there was an atomic holocaust which reduced the humans to pre stone age and gave the apes an opportunity to to develop, but still and later movies in this franchise sort of explain how that was kick started for the apes, but it still seems like this, this is too big a shift for 3, 000 years. [00:50:41] Ian: Yeah. [00:50:42] Matthew: Evolution does not work on that short a time scale, really. I agree. I agree. [00:50:46] Ian: Yeah, that's that's a little much, but I'll give it [00:50:51] Matthew: that maybe they're there. Well, suggesting there were bigger forces at work. [00:50:55] Ian: Yeah, there was something else going on. Okay, we'll go with that. [00:51:00] But that that ending scene of the you blew it up is so iconic. [00:51:05] Matthew: It is. And he's pounding the sand you damn you all to hell. I hope that doesn't affect our clean rating on iTunes. [00:51:14] Ian: Yeah, that's a good question. But That's such an iconic ending, and the fact that it ends there, with Taylor having fallen all the way, from a, from the man in the gleaming spaceship, talking philosophy, to the man in rags, at the foot of a symbol of the society he used to live in, pounding the ground, and in some ways, talking philosophy. [00:51:46] Matthew: And this brings me back to the idea of dreams that I mentioned briefly earlier. [00:51:51] Ian: Yes. [00:51:52] Matthew: We see Taylor on the spacecraft. Everybody else is already asleep and we see him getting into [00:52:00] his hypersleep pod and going to sleep. I sometimes watch this movie and believe that everything we see in the movie after that is him dreaming while he's in his hypersleep. [00:52:12] Ian: Oh, yeah. [00:52:13] Matthew: Because everything about it, you could see it as stemming from and reinforcing his nihilistic misanthropic view of people and civilizations, and that it's always going to turn out in the same bad way. Everybody's going to end up warlike. Even if humans went away and apes took over, we'd end up with the same problems in civilization. There's no getting away from it. Maybe I can't even get away from it by getting on a speed of light spacecraft, but at least I gave it a try. [00:52:46] Ian: That dream theory is always a careful thing, because it can be applied to so many, but it's interesting to put it in that one, because maybe? [00:52:54] Matthew: Yeah, I usually resist that very strongly, but this movie, it's sometimes, [00:53:00] I find that compelling. It doesn't change anything about the story, really, but it's an interesting idea. [00:53:06] Ian: It could be. Yeah. I think we're kind of leading into our, our larger ending questions though, because there's some other stuff we've got to talk about, about what that could mean. And I, I'd have to pull in some later stuff, so. [00:53:20] Matthew: Yeah, I think we are approaching our final questions, but before then, stay tuned for those final questions, but before then, if you want more of the Inter-Millennium Media Project, you can go to IMMProject.com and find all all of our back episodes, almost 150 at this point. You can also find a link to our Patreon if you want even more audio content and an opportunity to help support the, the podcast. Other ways to support the podcast is to go to our shop, also linked at immproject. com, where you can buy coffee mugs and t shirts and things. And you can also contact us there through Discord or our contact page, which will let you email us or send us honest to [00:54:00] goodness mail via the U.S. Postal Service. But most important, if if you enjoyed this, first of all, thank you for listening and let your friends know about it, share the information, go on your favorite podcast service and give us a five stars and a nice review and Ian, where can people find you? [00:54:17] Ian: I can be found most places as ItemCrafting, be that the soon to be updated ItemCrafting. com or ItemCraftingLive on Twitch. [00:54:26] Matthew: And you can find me at ByMatthewPorter. com where you'll find links to whatever I'm doing online, including my YouTube page which includes the Drafthouse Diary, reviews of every one of my visits to the Alamo Drafthouse Cinemas. And there are a shocking number of those. But back around to Planet of the Apes. [00:54:46] Ian: Yeah. [00:54:47] Matthew: Screen or no screen? [00:54:49] Ian: Oh, that is a hard one. I'm actually gonna say no screen. [00:54:54] Matthew: Wow. [00:54:56] Ian: I enjoyed it, I'll say this, but it did not [00:55:00] grab me the same way as some of our other films. In the most sad thing I must say, I feel like I understood enough of it from the social context. The zeitgeist told me enough of it. The screen didn't add much to the viewing. Which is a wild thing to say, but it's such a ubiquitous story now that this felt like a re watch, even if it was my first time watching it, and that means it doesn't hold the strength I think it should. [00:55:31] Matthew: Oh, that is interesting. I definitely say Screen, partly because it is so influential and iconic, but partly because I think it's just a very well constructed movie. It's got flaws, definitely, but I do think it's a compelling and interesting movie. And I don't know, maybe to some extent that is my memory of seeing it for the first time. Maybe that is just you know, difference in taste. It's hard to say. The first time I saw this movie I saw it in a theater. It was, I could figure out [00:56:00] exactly what year it was, because it was the year that Battle for the Planet of the Apes was released. Because they, as they brought this out as a re release to show as a double feature with Battle for the Planet of the Apes. And one year That is [00:56:15] Ian: the fourth movie! The fourth movie in the original series? [00:56:20] Matthew: Was it the fourth or fifth? [00:56:22] Ian: That is the fourth. [00:56:23] Matthew: I thought Conquest was the fourth. Oh, [00:56:24] Ian: no, no, no. You're right, you're right. It is the fifth. Okay. Because there's the original, then there's Beneath the Planet of the Apes, Escape from the Planet of the Apes, Conquest of the Planet of the Apes, and then it's Battle for the Planet of the Apes. That's then followed by Planet of the Apes, the TV series, and then Return to the Planet of the Apes, the animated TV series. [00:56:43] Matthew: And I watched almost all of those. But when I first saw this, we, we had been on vacation, we used to go on vacation for two weeks, and we got home, and to get us out of my mom's hair, my dad took my brothers and me out to the movies, and a double feature [00:57:00] of Planet of the Apes and Battle for the Planet of the Apes was playing. And we, back, back then, you wouldn't get tickets to a specific screening time, they were just running these movies back to back all day, and you'd buy a ticket and go in. We got there. About 30 minutes from the end of Battle for the Planet of the Apes. So I saw the, the end of that movie and it made no sense to me whatsoever. And then Planet of the Apes started and it was fascinating and compelling and huge. And again, I'm not sure how old I was. We could figure that out, but, but maybe seeing it for the first time in a movie theater like that it forms all my, my subsequent viewings of it. But but I definitely say screen. So the yeah, you already kind of talked about how history has answered this question, but revive, reboot or rest in peace. And It hasn't rested in peace, but we've gotten revivals and reboots. We've gotten sequels. [00:57:58] Ian: Yeah, so this is the [00:58:00] wildest thing because there's all five of those movies. There's the two TV series that came after that. So that means the last of the original series of anything was from 75, with the animated Return to the Planet of the Apes show. Then in 2001, there is The Planet of the Apes film directed by Tim Burton. [00:58:20] Matthew: Oh, yes. [00:58:21] Ian: Here's an interesting thing. The Planet of the Apes film directed by Tim Burton actually takes more references from the original. [00:58:32] Matthew: From the original Novel or the original screenplay [00:58:36] Ian: novel. [00:58:37] Matthew: Oh, yes, [00:58:37] Ian: Planet of the apes or La planète des singes. I'll be doing that awful. My French teacher would absolutely chastise me for how I did that but by Pierre Beaulieu was a 1963 science fiction novel About a scientist going hey, actually, it was about [00:59:00] journalists joining a scientist on a trip to Betelgeuse and landing on a planet. Where their pet chimpanzee they were brought with is responded to badly by the local humans, who are mute, and then they are captured by gorillas and brought to an ape society, which is just like the one from the movie. It is a movie. Combination of 20th century technology divided into theocratic sections based on the groups, everything there is kind of true, except for it ends with a going back to what they thought would be civilization, only to find an ape ified version of it with an ape Police force arresting them at the Eiffel Tower, which is very similar to how the reboot movie deals with landing back on Earth, only to find an ape version of the Lincoln Memorial. Then, jeeps full of gorillas come up and arrest our Mark Wahlberg protagonist in the [01:00:00] reboot. The reboot didn't succeed as much as they hoped, so they canceled it and then re rebooted it, creating the current. Planet of the Apes series, which started in 2011 with Rise of the Planet of the Apes, which honestly has nothing to do with the originals because it's much more about science experimented apes. Taking over society and it's a lot more of the in between time of the the ape society rising But with I take it less nuclear war getting rid of the humans first and more apes getting rid of us themselves [01:00:40] Matthew: Right, [01:00:41] Ian: which feels like the apes from the original story would be very mad at the apes from the newest versions [01:00:48] Matthew: yeah, those are good movies, but they're very disconnected from the central ideas and concerns of the earlier Planet of the Apes versions. And I, I, I think the Tim Burton version is a [01:01:00] terrible movie, but at least I can appreciate what it was trying to do. [01:01:04] Ian: And I can appreciate that it is in some ways trying to be respectful of its source material, which is just weird to say. Honestly, though, I think it's a rest in peace. I think that the Planet of the Apes stuff is going in all sorts of other directions, but the fact that it went in those directions might say something for how much meat was still on the initial concept bone without undoing something of the original. [01:01:30] Matthew: Yeah, I can, I can enjoy the latest series, which I kind of do. I think they're good movies while still saying, you know, these can exist while still considering the original planet of the apes having rested in peace. I'll say rest in peace with regard to the original five movie series, though, because there are some other very good movies in that series and some of them you may Get the either the opportunity or the requirement to watch [01:01:57] Ian: so we might come back to the temporal warp [01:02:00] That got us to this this planet and we might see the consequences there go it from here forward for our Nihilistic protagonist Taylor [01:02:08] Matthew: we might but we're not done with this episode yet. Okay, because you have something on your desk there. Yes I got that for you, but I wanted you to to open it while we were talking about Planet of the Apes [01:02:23] Ian: I don't have any clue what this is and [01:02:27] Matthew: Good. [01:02:27] Ian: I'm very, very con confused. Okay. What I am holding something that just says, "Planet of the Apes with sound." And it's a small box. Okay. And it is in fact . It's, yes. [01:02:48] Matthew: It's a little diorama kit. [01:02:51] Ian: It's a little diorama kit and it comes with a tiny ruined statue of liberty. And a tiny figurine, [01:02:59] Matthew: a [01:03:00] little Taylor on horseback, [01:03:01] Ian: a little Taylor on horseback, and a baggie of sand, and [01:03:04] Matthew: a tray to put it in to assemble your own little twist ending diorama. And and there's a little button on the back of the Stash of Liberty. We're not picking it up on mic. [01:03:15] Ian: Oh, dang it. We're not picking it up on mic, but Little Tiny Taylor will in fact bemoan the devastation humanity has caused. [01:03:23] Matthew: It's a little recording of his last lines in the movie. [01:03:27] Ian: That is brilliant. [01:03:29] Matthew: So enjoy. A little memento of our viewing of Planet of the Apes. [01:03:33] Ian: I will absolutely enjoy this. This is fun. Oh, that's brilliant. Beautiful. Oh, I love the little tiny guy on a horse. He's like the size of my pinky nail. [01:03:45] Matthew: That's great. [01:03:47] Ian: Oh, I've dropped him into my keyboard and he fell between the keys. Oh. He's that small. Oh my goodness. [01:03:56] Matthew: Well, I think that might be it for this episode. [01:04:00] [01:04:00] Ian: Absolutely. I shouldn't let Dr. Zaius find that I have this. He'll crush it as evidence of technology. He doesn't want the apes to obtain yet. He's been strictly told that the two things they must never invent are audio hallmark cards and nuclear weapons. Both would be devastating in the same way. [01:04:17] Matthew: You know where that's from? [01:04:18] Ian: No. [01:04:19] Matthew: That is from Archie McPhee. [01:04:20] Ian: Oh, that's fun Yay. This is brilliant. Thank you. [01:04:25] Matthew: Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it. It was fun to watch this movie with you and listeners, thank you very much for joining us as always. And we will be back in a couple of weeks with more tales of media from the 20th century. [01:04:39] Ian: And the meantime, go find something new to watch.