Julia Strand 0:02 Hello, and welcome to the juice in the squeeze. I'm Julia strand here as always with my co host, Jonathan Peelle. How's your term, going Jonathan? Jonathan Peelle 0:10 Oh it's going fine Julia. It's hard to believe it's April already. I mean, like, it's like mid April at this point. And, and so we have about a month left. And it's gone very quickly. I guess mostly in a good way. It's been a kind of a whirlwind for me, even though I've taught, you know, I've taught before, some teaching cognitive neuroscience, which is a pretty big lecture undergraduate class. And I've taught it many times before, but the hybrid teaching has just sort of taken it out of me. So I'm ready for a break. Put it that way. Julia Strand 0:44 Yes. Summer is coming. Jonathan Peelle 0:46 Yeah. Julia Strand 0:47 Yeah, good. I'm teaching, I'm teaching this new class that is called color, exclamation point. And it's a team taught class that is me, representing psychology, and then a colleague in the physics department and a colleague in the philosophy department. And so it's this multi disciplinary look at how we see and think about and represent and understand color. And it's the first time we've taught it. And it's awesome. It's super, super fun to get to like, Well, for one, I'm learning physics. The other night I finished dinner, and my husband and violet were like, which we do after dinner. And I was like, Well, I have some physics homework that I have to finish for tomorrow. And that was a new experience. And it's really funny, because I have, I have never had a philosophy class in my whole life and haven't had physics, literally since high school. So this is way outside my comfort zone. But it's just so fun, because it's this topic that we're all interested in, and teach about and think about in in our other realms. And it's really fun to you know, see how a physicist and a philosopher tackle a problem that I'm also interested in. Jonathan Peelle 1:58 Well, and this is like, anyway, I'm going off on a tangent, but it's related. How do you It's related in the sense that we're going to talk about teaching later and whatever. But I've never done a team taught class. So can you like, how do you organize it? You each take a class period each take a topic? Julia Strand 2:16 Yeah, so so I've done this is maybe the third or fourth time that I've done a team taught class. And it's been different every time. Sometimes I've done it, where we just kind of divvy up the class periods. That's worked really well when I've been taught intro, because you know, if I'm teaching it with somebody who studies social psychology, I'll be like, Alright, you take these lectures, I'll take these lectures, we have typically, like always gone to each other's lectures, because it's nice then for calling back to Oh, I remember when Neil talked about this, here, we have another example, dot dot, dot, M, that this one is is kind of carved up by Professor, but with more regular contributions and interjections from the others, even on days were primarily one person is leading it. So it's more like kind of truly, each class period is more team taught. Um, it is a pretty good amount of work, because in addition to just figuring out the content that I need for myself, I'm also like, you know, checking with people about how does this tie in with what you're going to talk about? And if I talked about this, does that step on the toes of, you know, what's coming later, should I foreshadow? And so it's, it's a fair amount of work. But, you know, if you're working with a smartphone, interesting people, like I am a super fun, you know, to like, learn from each other, and also, to, like, steal teaching ideas, right. So we're using, we're using some, like, kind of assignments and structuring things in a way that I never have before, but one of my other colleagues does and has, and some of that some of the techniques we're using, that I that we have adopted from her are just awesome. And like, I'm gonna use them in the future. So it's really fun. You don't want one of the things that's so funny about our job is you so rarely ever see anyone else do what you do. Yeah, right. Like, we so rarely see anyone else teach, and you can look at people's syllabus or whatever, but but just like being in a classroom and being like, Oh, I see, when she pauses to ask for questions. She does this or when he structures this, you know, like, like, it's, I feel like I've never seen somebody teacher present without learning something about teaching or presenting, whether it's, you know, whether it's, ooh, I'm gonna steal that, or, oh, I see that didn't quite work after remember, that's something that I might try, but maybe I won't know or, you know, whatever it is. It's just really fun to see other people do it. Jonathan Peelle 4:39 I also think I'm sure I'm sure there are classes like this at Wash U but they're not ones that I anyway, that I'm involved with. But you know, that kind of cross disciplinary teaching, I think is really instructive to write because you're sort of modeling how you can look at problems from different from different angles and and for lots of students, you know, who are Interested in multiple topics? I think that's probably really valuable too. So, I wish I could take your class it sounds, it sounds good. Julia Strand 5:08 Thank you. Um, I do have the lecture videos that that I'm making for the class, which is, which is not a ton, but there's going to be maybe maybe a half a dozen or so are on my YouTube channel. So if anybody wants to check those out, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Jonathan Peelle 5:24 Oh, great. Which are, which are where? Julia Strand 5:30 juiceandsqueeze.net/39 Jonathan Peelle 5:32 Yeah, that's right. Julia Strand 5:34 One. One of the other things about about teaching what's really fun is because I don't know anything about physics, Well, no. Now I know two days of homework about physics. I am super happy and willing to like raise my hand and ask questions in class that students might also be thinking, but they might think they're dumb questions or something. So there was one, there was one I was asking my physics physics colleague about we're like, you know, talking in Google Docs. And she said, Oh, he's just this in class. Because Yeah, students like it seems simple. But it's actually really complicated. It's a great question. And so I was like, I am so happy to model Hey, I'm a smart, curious person who doesn't know this. And the way smart, curious people who don't know things get their needs met, is to ask questions. And so I think it's nice to get to kind of model model that energy to Yep, Jonathan Peelle 6:19 yep. Well, I imagine though, it's sometimes it'll be tempting to go off on a tangent, right. Like, I could imagine asking one question and then being like, oh, but I have 10. Other questions about another. Unknown Speaker 6:32 Yeah. Julia Strand 6:33 And, and because the courses, it's set up for students who have had experience in any of the three disciplines, we've also had to be really mindful about making it work for people. You know, I have to make sure that everything I say about psychology and neuroscience is accessible to someone who has never had a psychology or neuroscience class. And so we've also been had to be really mindful about, you know, making sure it's accessible, which is, which is a good exercise to write, you can't rely on jargon, you have to actually think through what information is necessary for them to understand and present it ahead of time. And so it's been a good, great pedagogical exercise. Cool. Which leads us nicely into the topic of the day, which is we're in a little little mini series here about teaching. And, and although we are nearing the end of the academic year, this is when stuff about teaching is freshest in our minds. So we wanted to, we wanted to share it. Jonathan Peelle 7:29 Well, and you know, people might be doing some preparation over the summer. And so it's a good time to, to think about, think about this. So last time in Episode 38, we talked about some sort of big picture, teaching topics. And and really a lot of it was kind of like, well, if you're teaching a course, what do you cover? Because you can't cover everything. You can't cover everything in the world. You can't cover everything in the whatever textbook you're using if you're even using a textbook. And so what do you cover? And we talked a lot about that. And so today, we're gonna start diving into some of the details. And I think we're going to start with (dun dun dun) the syllabus. Julia Strand 8:12 What better what better place to start? Jonathan Peelle 8:16 Yeah, it's, it's funny, because I think I have a different perspective on what a syllabus is for now having taught than I did as a student, and I actually think like, you know, some of these like mismatched expectations are sort of important to, to think about. But anyway, Julia as as a professor, what, like, what's the purpose of a syllabus? What do you think? Julia Strand 8:42 Yeah, so I've heard this syllabus described as, like, a kind of contract for people, you know, use that language to mean like, here are the rules you want to grade, I want you to learn, and here is like, you know, there are agreements by which instead of buying this house, you were buying this knowledge. And, and, you know, I get I get, I get that idea, right, that like the syllabus is supposed to lay out course policies and give all the information about grading, and what happens if you're late and all of that, so that when things come up later in term, the professor can say, No, no, you knew this was going to happen. Now, you know what the consequences? I don't, I don't, I don't love thinking about it in that way. Because I don't like the idea of the relationship that I have with students being like contractual. I kind of approach it with the idea that, and this is this may differ depending on the students that you're working with them, the culture of the institution, and all of that, but I kind of go in with the, with the assumption that my students are smart and eager and want to learn and the syllabus is the place where I'm going to give them all of the information that they need to be successful for the term. That happens to include things like, you know, talking about grades and how you turn things in and what to do if you need help. But But I like thinking of it as like, you're going to have questions, here are the answers. Also, that it's a place where you can spell out stuff about the hidden curriculum and make it really explicit, how to do the things you need to do like to ask for help, and what office hours are for and, and those kinds of things. So I now think of it more as like, I don't know, like, like, like a, like a frequently asked questions document. I'm, like, you know, this is this is your your roadmap to success. And it's important, so I want to make sure you have all of it in one one convenient place. Jonathan Peelle 10:44 Yeah, I like that. It's also sort of like, so so my, my syllabus has evolved over the years I've taught. And so you know, anyway, so And why didn't Why has it changed? And so it's sort of like, part of it is actual frequently asked questions. So even if I don't phrase it that way, in the syllabus, it's like, every, every semester, people have a question about, do I accept late work? And so I make sure that that policy is clear in the syllabus, because people always ask about it. Right. So it's kind of like it is a frequently asked question. I want to make sure that it's clear. And then the other the other part is like, questions that people should ask, but maybe don't. This is like the communication, right? So sort of like, if someone was going to ask, Well, how do I, you know, succeed in your course? Or why is this thing important? Then here's what I would tell them. And not that people ever come up to me and say, Well, why do you give us so many quizzes? But actually, the reason is that I think practice helps learning and memory. And so I put that in there, just in case someone bothers to read it, they know why I do it. So anyway, so I kind of like try to be a little bit educational with it. And then the other thing is, I honestly, it's a reminder for me, so most of the things about core structure and grading and, and like practical things that are really important for people to know, I try to say, in class, but I might forget. And what if someone misses class that day, and I guess for us, especially, I don't know how it is for you, Julia. But you know, the first week and a half or two weeks of class, people can add and drop pretty pretty easily. And so a lot of times, I'll have a good number of students who like miss the first two or three classes, and then they they turn up in, you know, during the class the rest of the semester. And so I want them to have the same information that I told everyone else on the first day of class, even if I remember to say everything. So it's partly, you know, a reminder for me and in a safety net for when I forget to say things to make sure that everyone is, you know, on the same page about everything. Yep. Julia Strand 12:59 Yeah, so So I think, you know, when we're putting together classes, we all think that the syllabus is important, you know, perhaps for different reasons. But, but you know, it's got lots of important information in it. And what we would all like is for students to read it super closely. And there is kind of a, I don't know what the academic trope is right that we spent so long crafting these careful, thought out syllabi, and then nobody reads them. And instructors often get really angry with students and say it's in the syllabus, read the syllabus, why didn't you read the syllabus? And I really, I don't like I don't, I don't like that attitude. And that joke of I put in all this work and the dump, students didn't even take the time to read it. And now they're wasting my time by asking me questions. Because students are just human beings, right. And, frankly, when faculty are presented with similar kinds of situations, we don't read the information we're given either, right? Like, you know, there are there are lots of detailed instructions about how to submit your conference presentation, or whatever. But when you have to do it, you don't actually I mean, most people do not actually read those instructions, they like skim them a little bit for the information they need. And then when you do it wrong and get yelled at you go back and look more closely. I also, I had a really funny example of this recently, my wonderful lab manager Nassim recently, we had to do a bunch of like digital reorganization and switch our email address, whatever. It's not interesting, but it meant that all of our logins changed. And so Nassim, wonderfully and diligently worked with our IDs people and got everything switched, and wrote me this long, detailed document about everything that I needed to do to get my system up to date to like, integrate all of my plugins and everything with with the new logins. And I like looked at it and I bookmarked it, and I like kind of half skim it and I was like, cool. I have a pretty good sense of what I have to do. Then I promptly forgot it didn't do anything. And then when I needed one of those pieces of software, I was like struggling to figure out how to do it and send him a slack message. And I was like, it's no work. Hey, what's the matter? He's like, did you did you? Did you uninstall the plugin and then restart? And I was like, no, it's like, Okay, what did you read the document that I mean, he, he was not at all snarky about it was like, Okay, well, you know, in the document, it lays out exactly what you have to do. And I was like, Oh, this is what happens. Um, and so, you know, given that other experiences of I know, we're not all reading all of the material that we're supposed to read. What it what it makes me wonder is like, Why are students reading the syllabus? And instead of just making that, instead of just thinking of that as like a failing of theirs? to think about, like, what are we what are we doing to encourage them to read it? Are we for instance, making it super dense and 20 pages long, and not giving them any incentive to look at it? Because in that case, is a lot to ask to be like, read this dense thing that you don't think you're going to need? Right? When there's a bunch of other stuff going on? Jonathan Peelle 16:07 Can I just interrupt you there? Because I feel seen there one point I was gonna make, I'll post a link to my cognitive neuroscience syllabus. It's, it's 12 pages, if it's 11 pages going on to the 12th page, I think the first version was like five pages. And then all of these things that come up, I say, people ask about this, I should put that in there. People asked me about this, I should put that in there. And then I get the email from the dean saying, oh, by the way, of course, all of your syllabus should have these two and a half pages of university links and required information that that really no one cares about. And so now it's 12 pages. And so, you know, I wouldn't read a 12. If I was taking a if I was taking your color course, and you gave me a 12 page, I would probably read your syllabus, because it's interesting. But But you know, you're I'm saying like I your point, who wants to read all this? And not all of its relevant? And I know that not all this relevant. So So yeah, I don't I don't hold it against students too much if they don't read every word, carefully, you know. Julia Strand 17:12 Yeah. And I think it's also important to keep in mind that there's lots of ways of getting information across to students. And so if you have a bunch of stuff in the syllabus about like, I don't know how to do a literature search, or how to talk to the disability services office, if you need accommodation, well, actually, that one, I think, does blog myself, but you know, if there's content in the syllabus, that you're like, I have to give them this information somehow. I think it's worth thinking about like, but does it have to be in the syllabus, because they're more likely to read it if it is shorter and more direct. And so keep reserving those precious pages for content that actually matters, like, you know, deeply matters to the class is important. Like, it's definitely syllabus kind of material, I think it's probably useful for getting them to actually read it. I've also done so I often have, like daily quizzes that they do on our content management system on Moodle, before class and the first class period, or the for the first quiz before the second class period, I always have a quiz that's about the syllabus. So the syllabus is like part of the reading for the first night after class and then is, is on the quiz. And that's, you know, to to incentivize them to read it right? everyone's time is precious, and they have a lot of work to do. And given that it isn't immediately obvious why reading the syllabus is important. If you say, No, you actually need to read it, cuz I'm gonna ask you questions about it. That's, that's a good way of incentivizing it. Jonathan Peelle 18:43 I picked I'd started doing that after, after you mentioned this on some previous episode, Julia, and which I really like. And I also, so it's also it's a good first quiz, because typically, people will do very well on that quiz, right? So it's a it's like, Li assless get used to the, get the class into the habit of doing quizzes. And also, it's, it's a little bit of a freebie, because it's all in the syllabus, and you can do well. And then also, and I imagine you probably do this too, but you know, of my 12 page syllabus, some things are more important than others. And so guess what, I don't ask about little details to try to fool people. I asked them about the stuff I really want them to know. So if I have five questions on my quiz, those are like the five number one things that people ask about and get confused about and that way, they all they all know. Yeah. Julia Strand 19:37 In in classes where I don't have quizzes, I'll often take time on the first day and like put them in small groups and ask them questions about the syllabus. And it could be things like, talk to each other about the you know, structure of grades and see if you can find any, you know, collectively ask many questions that you have about the different assignments or You know, kind of something, something basic like that. Um, I also will do I have done like, kind of scavenger hunt t things with the syllabus. So, you know, go in and like find these specific points of information. Um, I also have used time on the first day of class, to have them talk through things that I could just write on the syllabus, but I think are more likely to stick if they talk through them. So one of the things that a question that I'll often ask them on the first day, especially for like smaller upper level classes, like my seminars, I'll say come up with an example of a question that you should book an appointment to talk to Julia about. One that you should email Julia, about. One that you should just ask Julia real quick before or after class, and one that you should just Google and not ask Julia about? And that's been a super useful exercise for kind of making them say, Okay, if I just need to say like, Can you send me the reference for that paper? You mentioned a class that could easily be an email? If I have a question about a definition, that should not be an email, I should google that. And so those kinds of things, like, yeah, you're welcome to meet with me, but don't meet with me, if you want to ask for a definition or something like you could write all that in the syllabus, but having them talk through it, I think, helps them remember it, and also makes it more clear why the answers are what they are, without me having to be like, you're welcome to meet with me, but I'm a busy lady. So don't waste my time. You know, which that's a very different tone. Early in the term. Jonathan Peelle 21:32 Yep. Well, and there's also, you know, as educators and people who are doing this for a living, I think we have an intuition that if you have a question, how do you answer the question, will you do research, right, and so that could be googling it, or it could be looking at their syllabus or whatever. But not everyone has that same intuition. And so I also like, so so just like a complimentary thing is if someone asked you information that's in the syllabus, rather than sort of being annoyed about that, which I'm sure I have been, but it's also an opportunity to say, hey, please look at the syllabus and double check that it's not in there first. And if you can't find it, then then come back and ask me or something like that. So just try to view it as more of a opportunity to encourage people to, you know, take a different approach, as opposed to they're just bugging you. Julia Strand 22:26 Yep. Jonathan Peelle 22:28 There's another thing I try think I did try this for a couple of classes. It works less well, with asynchronous and recorded classes, but I got this idea from someone whose name I can never pronounced. Sorry, I'm gonna mute my text, so we don't get a ding. I got this idea from someone whose name I can't pronounce it. Edward Tufte. But it might be Tufty? Yep. Is it tough to Okay, good. So from Edward Tufte, he, and he's written several books, he's very interested in sort of presenting data and not really graphic design, but the well, the visual display of quantitative information, right. And so I went to a talk that he gave one time, and one of the things that he does is he has a study hall portion of the meeting. And so if you want people to read something that you're all going to discuss together. One option is you tell people ahead of time, please read this before, before we meet, and then we'll talk about it. But people are busy, and they may not do it. So another option is you say, okay, I've passed out of the thing. Now, we'll just be quiet for five minutes or eight minutes, while you all read it. And then we'll talk about it. And so you kind of build in some reading time to class. And you can't do that for everything. But actually for for some things, especially if they're short, or for something that's really important. I think that's a really interesting idea. And then it's I've done that with the syllabus before and then people have questions, which is great. I don't do it with like, I think that there was a video where there was an eight minute pause to give people time to read the syllabus. I'm guessing they would not sit there for eight minutes and read this I would watch that on double speed. Yeah. Julia Strand 24:39 Dumb was an air quotes there. I don't know if you could hear that. Jonathan Peelle 24:41 I did actually. I will say so. You know, I like the idea of generally not viewing it as a contract. But I will say that a few of the things in my syllabus are in there because of specific experiences I've had with you You know, anyway, difficult situations come up, like with plagiarism or whatever. And I think, Oh, you know, that should be clear from the syllabus that accent x isn't allowed or whatever. And so I think some of that I do have in there as sort of a little bit of it's obviously not a legal clause. But anyway, just to kind of protect myself. So I think this is part of it, too. We'll kind of get into this later today, and maybe, maybe going into next time about trying to be fair to everyone and how we can be equitable in our setting up a course. But one of those things that helps me is to have clear principles that I can apply the same to everyone. And so how do I do that? I have to write them down somewhere. And rather than have them be secret, I would rather have them be open. Right? So if the anyway if their principle is, if you if you plagiarize, you're going to get a zero on the assignment I should write that make that public and not have to be who knows what's going to happen if you plagiarize? Right. So whatever the whatever the thing is, so I do have a few little statements that are kind of more contractual, and maybe not everyone has to read them, but I, it makes me feel better to have them in there. Julia Strand 26:11 Yeah, and and also that it helps to both enforce and convey fairness. Right, right, that that, you know, if somebody at the end of term says, Oh, I wish my grade or higher, can I write an extra essay or something? You say, No, this is the course policy. This is how it this is how it works. It's also kind of a way of like, saving yourself from having to make every decision exactly right. Like if a student comes to you and is like, Can I do extra work? I'm like, Well, I don't I'm like, Nope, that's just that. That is that is not how this works. And and so it is, I mean, it's kind of cover in a way, right? That you're like, No, no, it says in the syllabus. I don't super by that, because like, we can write whatever we want in the syllabus. So say saying it's in the syllabus, therefore, I can't, it's out of my hands. It's like, well, but you read the syllabus. But but it is a like a way of saying, This is the policy for everyone in the interest of fairness. So the syllabi for my courses tend to be super short and sweet. And just give kind of like the most critical, broad strokes information about the course. And then many of the other things that I would have, in previous years, put in the syllabus, I end up conveying in some other way. And I don't know if it's I don't know if it's the Carleton students, or the fact that they're short, or the fact that they have a quiz about it, or, or what but but I feel like I get very few questions that made me say, Oh, you didn't read the syllabus? It's right on there. So those are the who knows who knows which of those things have any have done it? things to think about? And all of them will put, we'll put a link in the show notes to my website that has all my syllabi on it as well. Jonathan Peelle 28:07 Great. Well, yeah, I want to see those two. Julia Strand 28:13 Another thing I do, and I don't know if this helps either, or, if it's just something I waste time on. I make them pretty, I make them interesting to look at I use like nice layout and design for them. Because I think people are more inclined to want to look at stuff that's visually interesting than just you know, a wall of text. I know some people I've never done the thing of like, putting in an Easter egg. We're like in the middle of the third paragraph about academic integrity. It says if you read this, send me a GIF of a dolphin or whatever. Um, I've heard about people doing that. And it sounds on Twitter, like the people who do that thing. That's very fun. Jonathan Peelle 28:51 Okay, I've never done that either. mine are not visually appealing. They're just a wall of text. Julia. So maybe that's one of why people don't read it because of that. One thing— Yeah, no, no, I, it's good to think about one thing that I started doing so but you know, back in the old days, so you know, I since I've been teaching, we've always had a some kind of online content management system. It used to be Blackboard. Now it's Canvas, you have Moodle, which is great, because you just put the syllabus on there, it's available. When I first started teaching this class, we had like 50 students, and I would I would print out a copy for everyone. But just because I thought they'd be more likely to read it if they had a thing in front of them to page through while I was talking about it. As the class got up to 200 what you know, there has to be a lot of paper to waste and I felt bad about that. And I and then, you know, so I stopped printing it. And then the other thing that changed was I used to you know, I would do the syllabus before the semester and I would they'd be a PDF and I upload And then you know, a few times during the semester, I'd have to change it. If nothing else, I usually have like a, you know, what topics will be covered every day. And of course, that might change. But people get confused if your topic doesn't line up with what you said you would do. And so, so every time I change it, I'd have to like resave it as a PDF, and then re upload it and then fix the link in the Anyway, it was it was a pain. So So now I just have all of my syllabi by the Google Docs that are, you know, anyone can see them, but only I can edit them. And that way, if I ever make a change, if someone pulls up the link, they just always get the most current version. And then also, if students you know, are, they write to me, and they say, I'm thinking about taking your class next semester? What's it like, I can just send them a link to the syllabus? And I know, yeah, yes, I could also send them a PDF or whatever. But for me, it's just an easier, easier workflow. Julia Strand 30:59 I have for my open science class that I taught this fall, I did that, but also made, so I made it in Google Slides. So it kind of looks like a very, very, very low tech website. And, and that has like that, that did the syllabus, plus Course Management stuff all in one spot. So that can make it fully publicly accessible. And that was also really nice, because then, you know, when I'm like, adding my lectures, or adding new links to things, it's just all in one spot. Students can see it public can see it. It's also like, where I kept track of everything. And that really has a lot of appeal over something like Moodle, where you have to log in, and it's, you know, only open to the Carleton community and all that. Jonathan Peelle 31:45 When honestly, even for my experience, especially working, you know, off campus a lot, the last year, every time I have to login to something, there's always a two factor authentication, and I have to get my phone and you know, do it is a barrier even to me to work on my own stuff. Right. And so I'm sure it's a barrier to other people, too. And so yes, the more we can kind of get around that I think the better. Yeah. Julia Strand 32:13 One of the other things that I wanted to talk about about that syllabus and kind of teaching in general, is something that it took me many years of teaching before I realized, which is the importance of explaining and justifying your choices to students. So I have been released, I mean, and it makes all the sense when you think of students as human beings, because I am also very moved by people justifying their choices, right? I'm like, Oh, I don't understand. That's a dumb rule. And then you learn more about it, you're like, Oh, I do understand that makes sense. And so so I try to do that in my classes, when I'm talking about like, this is why we do quizzes, like you were talking about, you know, like, this is why we do daily quizzes. And I'll even like show them research on the testing effect. And the fact that retrieve it practicing retrieving information leads to better retrieval. You know, so like, justifying why the assignments are the way they are explaining, like, what what the purpose of the assignments is, and especially for things that are like, that seem annoying, you know, if it's like, oh, I understand that, it might seem really picky that you have to Xyz. But here's why I think it's an important habit for you to get in and good exercise. I feel like that goes so far in making people students feel like you're on their side and not just forcing them to do busy work. And for for stuff that has to do with like, I don't know, like, like, the meta learning, right, like learning about learning. Maybe if they understand the purpose of doing regular quizzing and retrieval practice, then that's something that they will take with them into future classes. And so when I, when I talk about what's on the syllabus, or the course structure, I think taking the time to like justify, justify those things, is really worth the time. And it also shows that you're like, being thoughtful and caring about them and trying to put together a good experience for them and not just being like 50% tests, 50% papers, we're done. Right? Right, that there's anything wrong with that breakdown. I just, you know, Jonathan Peelle 34:22 yeah. Yeah. And one thing that I started doing, it's a little bit of a cheat, but it's, it's okay. So the, you know, the first class that I'm talking about this, I started using pull quotes from my teaching evaluations. And so it's one thing in particular, so I do, it's been a little bit I've done I've actually fewer quizzes in now with COVID, for various reasons we can talk about but anyway, I do lots of quizzes and I typically in non COVID times they're pop quizzes and they're on whatever material or whatever reading we've been doing. And so they're usually about 10 or 12, throughout the course of the semester. And people, you know, you'll be shocked to know that students don't love this, especially when I teach it 830 in the morning, and sometimes the quiz is the first thing of the day. Not everyone is jumping up and down for joy. But when I get my comments at the end of the semester, a lot of people so you know, this is very authentic. I don't I'm not, I don't cherry pick the comments too much. A lot of people said, you know, what was something good about the class and they say, Oh, the quizzes because they kept me on task. And I kept me from procrastinating and helped me to stay up with the material. So in the first class, I say, I know that not everyone loves quizzes. You know, it's kind of like, I'm sorry, I'm going to do it anyway. But here's why. And then I threw up some quotes from from students who said they liked it. And so obviously, I don't, I don't lie, those are real quotes. I could ignore the 90% of students who hate it and just put up the quotes from people who like it. But actually, honestly, I don't get any complaints about it. And I get lots of people who say they're helpful. So I think I think it's okay. But I think that's kind of, you know, a useful. It's, I guess it's a pedagogical device, or, you know, it's a way to convince people that it's not just don't listen to me, listen to the other students who have taken the class that this is actually in your best interest, even though in the moment, it's not your favorite thing. Julia Strand 36:31 Yep. Yep. One of the other times that I really have used, justifying choices, is around like midterm evaluation time. So you know, I'll do an evaluation halfway through term, that's just how things go on what's working, what isn't working all of that. And then I'll take a solid, like 10 minutes in class after they have done that in the next day. And kind of talk through what the themes what the themes were, and sometimes it is, boy, a bunch of people mentioned that, it would be nice to have access to the slides or whatever, I do that anyway. But you know, it could be things like that, that I actually can and will change. So I'll say, Yep, there are now in a folder on Moodle, or people said, the reading quizzes are really stressful. And could we drop three instead of dropping one or you know, something like that, where I'm actually going to change something. But I think it's also super useful to talk about the things that you aren't going to change and explain why. So if I say, a lot of people mentioned that there's a lot of content that you're responsible for on the exam, and that was really stressful on the first exam or something, I say, well, there's a lot of content. And I'm keen that you learn that. And here's some of the resources you can learn to help us to help make it more manageable or something like that. But I feel like taking the time to say, I know that not everybody likes this, but I'm doing it for a good reason. It makes them so much happier. I mean, so much more like willing to accept that that thing is still going on, then if they're mad about it, they tell you about it. And you just don't say anything about it. Or you say we're not changing it just we're not changing that. But but not here's why. Right? Which is frankly, exactly how I would respond. Right? University is like, we have to do a hiring freeze. I'm like, that's dumb, we need new people. And they're like, no, but here's the budget and look at why you're all the reasons and if we do it for this many years, then this is what's gonna come out of it. You know, and like having having that rationale for all humans, helps you feel better about you know about the situation. So. But when I when I first realized that I was talking with a senior colleague, who's who I stole this idea from, and he was like, Yeah, I didn't actually change anything. But everybody felt better after midterm when I explained why I wasn't changing anything. Ah, brilliant. Jonathan Peelle 38:45 Yeah, no, I think I think that's good. But it also I think, I think the more we can do to, you know, foster an attitude of, we're all in this together. And like, we want you know, as professors, we want our students to succeed, and they want to succeed too, but actually, in the big picture, that doesn't always mean, you know, teaching less content and making all the grading easier, because in the big picture, that's actually not going to help you like you have to learn resilience and grit and how to study and how to ask for help. And there are these sort of bigger, you know, life lessons that you learn partly through through our courses, I hope, right and so, and so there's, there's a balance between working together, but also, you know, we've done this before, and we have some ideas about this. And so we want to, you know, we're still in charge, but like, you know, doing it collaboratively. Julia Strand 39:42 Alright, so we have now talked about kind of the big picture teaching philosophy stuff. Did we really just do a whole episode on the syllabus? Well, yes, and you know, and other syllabus related things. So next time we are going to round our round out our mini series on teaching by talking about Things like the kinds of readings we assign, and why and the kinds of assignments we have and our motivations and is it group work or individual work and things like that. But we are really eager to hear from you about what else you would like to know about what are the teaching things you're nervous about, or have struggled with, or are just interested for additional perspectives on. So please feel free to send us a message on the website, juiceandsqueeze.net or on Twitter at @JuiceSqueezePod. We would love to, we'd love to hear from you. Jonathan Peelle 40:31 Or it could have just worked really well that you want to share with the world. We're always looking for suggestions to so yeah, feel free to brag about stuff you've tried that's worked. Julia Strand 40:42 Yes, thank you. And your computer looks pretty cool. But it would look cooler. If it had a sticker on it. Why don't you squeeze sticker? Send us a message and we'll put one in the mail for you. Jonathan Peelle 40:54 Alright, thanks for listening, everybody. See you next time. Julia Strand 40:57 Bye bye!