Julia Strand 0:02 Hello, and welcome to the juice and the squeeze. I'm Julia Strand here as always with my co-host, Jonathan Peelle. Hi, Jonathan. It's been a while since we actually recorded an episode just for the podcast. Jonathan Peelle 0:14 I know it's good to be back. Julia Strand 0:15 I think that where we left off last time, I mean, last time we did adjust for the podcast episode is that it was just before midwinter ball, the fictional holiday that I invented to mark the halfway point between the average first frost and last frost in Northfield, Minnesota. And so midwinter ball has now come and gone and I wanted to give a little recap of how it went, partly because it was super fun, and I just want to share it. I've been waiting to hear about it. And partly because I am really now into making up new holidays and I want to inspire others to you know, invent holidays, to mark the occasions that you want to. Okay, sowinter is is long and dark in Minnesota, and it is long enough and dark enough and cold enough that one of the things I love about Minnesota and Minnesotans is that it is too long and too cold to just try to like stay inside and write it out. Right? You can't just be like, oh well we'll just not do anything for six months and then see you in the spring. So Minnesotans like get really into being outside and everybody has like outdoor hobbies and skis and snowshoes in plays broom ball and like you know people really get into the winter stuff. So I wanted to have a holiday that was not like a winter socks and isn't it great that we're halfway done but is like just a holiday where you live outside and embrace beautiful frigid north and you know Mark Mark the point I think of it as like it's like figuratively you know when you find like the the point on a continent that is like farthest from any coast right this is like the point where we are the deepest into the winter that we can ever be. Okay, so to celebrate it we had a couple of friends over for an outside socially distanced event. And we Okay, okay, so made champagne glasses out of ice. And the first tradition is that you drink champagne out of your ice glass and whoever's springs a leak first. Gets the the first honor of getting to wear the crown of Papa winters favorite child Papa winter is the fictional deity who watches over midwinter ball. Jonathan Peelle 2:32 I have to I have to stop you. How do you get a champagne classmate of ice? Julia Strand 2:37 Oh, so I tried like 10 different techniques. And the thing that worked the best was a plastic like a plastic cup. And then hanging a shot glass from the rim of the plastic cup cup with tape. So the shot glass is like suspended in the middle of the plastic cup at the top and then filling it up with water and freezing it so it freezes like the plastic cup with a shot glass sized hole in the middle. Okay. That means I kind of want to see it. Yes, it I think it does, I think you should share this knowledge with the world. I would I would be happy to post pictures. Um, so I wanted to start off with like this contest. Well, not a contest, but you know, just to see whose glass would spring up leak first because that's like, it would be fun to make a mess. It's also kind of an incentive to drink it more quickly because then it would like you'd have warmer champagne, you know to melt it. So there's there's a couple of layers there. Okay. But so then whoever's broke first got to wear the crown of Papa winter's favorite child, which is a crown made out of balsam branches and pine cones and feathers and acorns. And just like whatever, you know, nature treasures I could find around and you got to you got to earn the Crown by doing things that are awesome and helpful for the groupor something that that Papa winter would approve of. The other thing that's super fun about drinking out of glasses made of ice is that when you finish them, you can just throw them on the ground and they smashed into a million pieces. Very exciting. And so we did that we had mulled wine I made 30 Rainbow blocks of ice for the kids to play with. So I just like the large chest freezer up with Tupperware over and over again with like food coloring and water to make big blocks. And I made bowling balls and bowling pins made out of ice. Oh and made up a silly tradition about how you had to wear little bits of tree branches and you know all of the like dead outside foliage that I could pinned to your coat to make Papa winter think that you're a tree so he doesn't like blow cold air on you and try to make you cold. That's his camouflage intended to keep you warm. And we had mugs of soup and maple candy on snow. I made individual ice loses for her for peppermint schnapps. Um, it was it was it was super awesome. A really a really fun way to brighten up the brighten up the winter. Jonathan Peelle 5:00 I have so many questions for you about this. I'll limit myself to two. Do your kids realize that no one else yet celebrates this holiday? Julia Strand 5:11 I don't think so. Because, um, because they like talked about it, you know, the same way that they were talking about like Christmas or whatever. And you know, and when you explain to them the traditions of Christmas or the tooth fairy or whatever, right? Like the the midwinter ball traditions are no weirder than any of those, right? You see it with a straight face, and you pretend you didn't just make it up. 30 seconds ago, and yeah. There was one time where, where the five and a half year old was like, wait, Mama, is Papa winter real? And you know, I explained that no, but it's fun to pretend. And this is what he represents and all of that. Um, but no, I can't wait till they like are in school. And they're like, what are you in for midwinter ball? Jonathan Peelle 5:55 Like next year, right. Right. Okay, so my other question for you is, you know, I'm assuming that this is going to be a worldwide phenomenon within a couple of years. But as people, all of our listeners around the world want to celebrate their own midwinter balls. It's, it's location specific, because it depends on the frost. Right. So so not everyone is going to celebrate it on the day that you celebrate it. Julia Strand 6:25 That's fun! Jonathan Peelle 6:26 Okay, so but that's right, right. So if I want to do it, I have to look up the almanac in we're in St. Louis. And I got to figure out the days and then maybe, you know, once everyone's doing it, we could all kind of have a shared day where we we kind of average all of them together or something. Julia Strand 6:41 Well, but what's really nice about it happening on different days is that the real like hardcore m wb groupies could like chase the holiday. Right? Oh, yeah. So I can do it here. And then come and see you in St. Louis, when you celebrate it, and you know, you could celebrate it multiple times a year, which has a real charm to it, too. I like that. Okay. Cool. I thought I had one other question, but I'm, I'll leave it. I'll leave it. I'll let it. I'll let it sit. I'll try to I have to do a lot of planning for next year. Julia. Yeah. Well, you got you got some time. Yeah. Um, all right. So this, this kind of segues nicely into the actual topic for today. Um, that has to do. Okay, so well, why did I mention new holiday this year, um, it's because pandemic is super hard. And there is not enough fun. I mean, there's not enough a lot of things like, clearly the lack of fun is not the worst problem about this pandemic. But one of the things that I have found really challenging is like, there's so little to look forward to. Right, like everything is, everything is a lot of work. And it's unclear what kind of you know, when the end is going to be in sight, and what it's going to look like, and all of that. And so one of the things I have been trying to do to keep spirits up around the house is to just come up with ways of having fun, that are within the bounds of, of what we can do. And it's and it's, it's been particularly strange in that, so my kids are out of daycare, and I, Mom, four hours a day and work four hours a day, the four hours of work time are like, super, incredibly intense, focused work time. But then the four hours of momming are like just playdough. And reading frozen stories, like frozen the cartoon. Like, you know, it's like just like reading reading stories, my kids, and I guess like intense focused momming. But But also, so I have like all of this, quote, unquote, free time, which is time that I'm not working. But like none of it's actually free, right. It's all it's all spent doing, doing childcare. But there are ridiculous things you can do like making lots of blocks of ice with children helping you drip food coloring in and stuff like that. So there is somehow both no time at all to do anything, and time to do creative, silly projects, as long as you can keep a five year old, a three year old entertained, right well while doing them. So what we wanted to talk about today is the ways that the pandemic is hitting us and how we are helping ourselves and those around us deal with those challenges. And this was sparked in part by the idea for this came from a couple of tweets that I have seen recently that that really hit me and we'll link to these in the show notes. One of them is by Sarah Smith, who defined pandemic fine as a state of being in which you are employed and healthy during a pandemic, but you're also tired and depressed and feel like trash all the time. I, I really liked that. Because you know what things are hard. There's a great solidarity and knowing that it's not hard, just because I don't know, you're weak and failing in some way, but because it's like, actually hard. And so I have, one of the things that has really helped me is just hearing from other people that it's hard for them to, even when they are lucky enough, that the things that are hard are not that they are sick or don't have a job or, you know, have having, you know, like real major structural problems, but it's hard for everybody. So, Jonathan Peelle 10:40 when people ask you how you're doing, I mean, we check in at the beginning of our podcast, you know, that pidgley, how you doing? What's your typical answer to people? And what are you thinking in your head? When, when people ask you, Julia Strand 10:53 I think, I think hanging in is a pretty common one, you know, or like, Oh, fine, you know? Because, because in, like, in all the big ways, I am fine, I'm incredibly fortunate, I know that this pandemic has been much harder on many people in like, real structural ways. Um, but also like, you know, tired and feel like trash all the time. Right. I mean, that's, that's a little strong for how I actually am. But, um, yeah, how about how about you? How do you? Jonathan Peelle 11:27 I think, I think for the first, the first little while, the first six months or something, you know, I find good, but it felt it felt very, you know, kind of disingenuous, because things didn't really feel fine. But as you said, I also, you know, we've been very fortunate in our family that no one's no one's been particularly sick, and we're all employed and things like that. So I think, you know, I don't I feel like I don't have a right to complain, because, in that sense, we've been really, really fortunate. But things don't really feel great. You know, and so yeah, so I've turned it into hanging in there. Because that's kind of that's what it would it feels like, and I do think, you know, there's, we will maybe come back to this too, but I think there's some value in either in solidarity or just in helping, you know, helping people know that you might be having a little bit of a tough time, even if it's a very, like I said, very subtle of signaling. What you didn't notice when I say hang in there instead of fine that that really meant it was a really tough day. Exploration point. Yeah, right. Yeah. Julia Strand 12:32 So so I want to I want to grab something that you just said, which is feeling like you don't have a right to complain about, about what's going on. And on the one hand, I totally get that. And I appreciate, you know, how many times have I said, I know that other people have it worse, and I feel a little, you know, silly, even complaining about what's going on, given how great many things in my life are. But I also wanted to do an episode about this, though, because I've been talking to a lot of my students, many of whom are having a super tough time and are saying things like, Oh, I don't know why things are going better. For me, I don't have any right to complain, you know, and, and, and I've been trying to explain to them that like, even if you are employed, and healthy, and all of those things, like just dealing with the mental weight of everything that's going on in the world right now, is really hard to deal with. And just because other people are dealing with those things, in addition to being sick or out of work or something like that doesn't mean that it's easy for you, it doesn't mean that it should be right, like saying saying you're not allowed to be sad, because other people have it worse is like, you know, like we would never say you're not allowed to be happy because somebody else has it better. Right? This can be challenging, even if it's more challenging. Unknown Speaker 13:47 Sure, Julia Strand 13:47 for different people are challenging in different ways. But I'm, like, nobody's having an awesome time right now. write Jonathan Peelle 13:54 a note? Well, I don't think Julia Strand 13:57 one of you is having an awesome time. I'm glad for you. And I and I hope you really appreciate it because I think you're probably in the minority. I mean, certainly in the minority. Jonathan Peelle 14:05 People do well, I guess I'll speak for myself, I'm people. So I think a lot of my interactions are with, I mean, certainly with students, but also lots of meetings with with colleagues, other faculty members and so on. And it seems like there's a big variability in like how stressed out people are, or maybe it's just a big variability in like, how much they let that come through on a zoom meeting, which is, you know, which I totally under understand, but I don't know, it seems like there's a big there's a big range individual differences to the play a big role. And part of that is, you know, for people with kids like what the school situation is or whatever, you know, I mean that I don't I'm sure that's not the only factor but that does seem to be a factor. But I'll also say that for me like it can, it really changes day to day so some days I really feel like up against the wall and like I'm I have nothing left to give by nine in the morning and like others I'm gonna go, things are pretty good, which is what I understand all this is normal, like our emotions and someone can change day to day, but I sort of feel like it's exacerbated in the in pandemic times. Julia Strand 15:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also feel like those emotional states, Unknown Speaker 15:17 when, Julia Strand 15:18 you know, like, there are days in the before times where I'd be feeling grumpy or out of sorts or something. But then I'd like, go to work and have a bunch of meetings and talk to people and have a bunch of social interactions that like, take me out of my own head. And, and if you don't have those, then I feel like it's much easier to kind of like, stay in whatever mental state you're in. Jonathan Peelle 15:38 Yeah, that's true. And I, I also have the sense of like, every day is like every other day, and it's not entirely true. But I've been people say, Well, how was your weekend? I feel like, you know, what is the weekend? Like, it doesn't really, it's not again, it's not entirely true. But I have a little bit of that feeling. I mean, when you're working at home, and then you're home on the weekend, like, Are you are you always at home are always at work? Julia Strand 16:04 And for exam, we've talked about that, no matter what, and yeah, right. Um, yeah, so I feel like there are big individual differences. Of course, there are big demographic differences. We can, you know, link to some of the articles that talk about how women are bearing the brunt of the additional work at home in general, across the country. We can post articles that talk about, you know, how incredibly traumatic all of the events of the summer and increased focus on racial justice have been for minorities and people of color. Boy, and then just in the last, in the last couple of weeks, all of the articles showing about the dramatic and super troubling rise of anti Asian American violence. That is, I mean, it's, yeah, so anyway, like, it's, um, it is clear that there are individual differences within groups, and that there are also big divides across groups that make this much harder for some groups than others. Mm hmm. So, so one of Okay, so things are hard. Everyone agrees. One of the reasons that I wanted to talk about this is that I feel like, I've been having so many one on one conversations with students in which I am like, trying to reinforce that it's like to be expected and normal to be having a hard time right now. Because, because it's super hard. And I've been thinking about what are the things that have like helped me feel better? While all this has has been going on? And a big one is just like hearing from other people. I mean, like I said, that this is like a normal and reasonable reaction. Another thing that we're gonna link to is, Jonathan, did you see that the New York Times primal scream? article? Jonathan Peelle 18:00 I did not. Julia Strand 18:01 Okay. Okay. Okay, it's great. So that, that that's perfect, cuz then I can explain it to you. You know, we didn't we didn't fake us. So So I guess the New York Times, like opened up a phone line where they encouraged moms at the end of their ropes to call in, and scream or rant or rage, or you know, whatever about all of the things that are really hard for them right now. And when I was reading it, I felt this like incredible sense of like camaraderie, and solidarity, just being like, Oh, it's not just me, that's going a little bit crazy. Right now. This is just like, this is a thing that is happening and is the a reasonable reaction to the situation that we're in. And so, dear listeners, I highly encourage you to check it out. It's a Yeah. Yeah, that's all I encourage you to check it out. Jonathan Peelle 18:58 What can I ask? I mean, well, what things have been hardest for you? Like, like, are you aware of, of things that have been the most challenging? Julia Strand 19:09 Yeah, so so one thing is I'm just like, super behind and underwater with work stuff, right? Like having, having the kids at home and working four hours a day, and then whatever I can squeeze in, after they go to bed at night, or before they wake up in the morning or on the weekends, is just is not enough hours to do the work that I need to do. And so I am like, doing less good work than I usually do. I am, you know, later on things than I usually am. So I'm just like, I'm not doing as good a job at my job as I would do if I had eight hours of work a day. And you know, and that's like, I'm mad at myself for that. I recognize that. That's just is what it is. But but it's you know, it's frustrating to like not be doing your best work. Jonathan Peelle 19:54 That kind of compounds over time, too. Right. I mean, that's something else I've been noticing is sort of like, you know, Whatever in March last year, you wouldn't walk down started, like you go and kind of emergency mode, you know, and for like, for a week, you're like, Okay, we got it we can, your adrenaline is pumping, and you're like, moving stuff around, it's all fine. And then after, you know, months and months and months, like, you know, you can't keep in emergency mode all the time, and like finding a new, like, a new normal in a way, but like, when that's sustainable, right, like, I think I feel like I have a new normal, and it does not seem sustainable, but we've been doing it for almost a year. And so trying to find, whether it's my expectations, or my responsibilities, or my schedule, or whatever, but it feels like, I'm still trying to cling to the old ways when when they have not been, you know, like, relevant for for a long time. Yep. Julia Strand 20:45 Yeah, so that's challenging. Like social, you know, I, I'm such a super extrovert, I just, I miss people and hugging and going places and laughing and crowds. And like, you know, I just like, the social stuff, I miss a ton. And, and, and so, there's like the missing it. And there's the, you know, not much to look forward to, it's all a lot the same. Except when you make up new holidays, that stuff is really challenging. And then the, like, I adore my children, and I love spending time with them. And you know, when it's, we're just together all the time, all the time. And sometimes when I'm with them, you know, I get a slack message from a student or something, and I need to respond right away. And I'm kind of like doing this dual tasking trying to like juggle children and getting work stuff done, like constant task switching. It's just really hard to like, be present and engaged and all of that. So Jonathan Peelle 21:51 I met him, at least for me, then, you know, on occasion when that happens, and no one gets my best self, right. So like, the family gets distracted me because I'm trying to take care of the work thing that was overdue. And then the, you know, colleagues or students who are messaging me from work, get get a bad response from Professor appeal, because I'm in the middle of, you know, literally holding two babies, while the third one screaming and I'm trying to write a thoughtful reply to, you know, whatever. Yeah, I find that task switching super hard to and that's a problem from, you know, it's working from home, for me is like, you know, I mean, I'm curious how it is for you. But you know, I'll say, Okay, I have four hours to work. But I have ears and I can hear stuff that's going on. And so even if I know that everyone is safe in the house is not on fire, if there's a lot of, well, happy screaming or yelling or sad, screaming or yelling or whatever, then I'm like, I can't even either I go help, or I just like, you know, it's a dual task thing. And, anyway, and I, you know, I can't, I can't just, I haven't found the right headphones, or the or the will within myself to, like, totally drown out what's going on. I don't want to because I, you know, I know I want to be present too. So I find it, you know, I can't do I really struggled to do anything that requires a lot of like deep quiet thought and reflection. Which is, you know, a fair part of the parts of our job that I like. Unknown Speaker 23:21 Yeah, yeah. Jonathan Peelle 23:23 So now that we've depressed all of our listeners by bringing up all the things that are like, Julia Strand 23:28 yeah, we know, it sucks. It sucks for us too Alright, here's the thing. Here's, okay. So we're talking about like things, things that have been helpful for us. This is such a silly one, but it actually has, like, I don't know, changed change by really, really changed my outlook. And that is a wonderful tweet that I saw from the wonderful, brilliant Chris Chambers, who for those of you who don't know, is a Open Science enthusiast and advocate for for registered reports that has done all kinds of great work. What the the tweet that he that he tweeted the other day that I really liked last week was hashtag Kobayashi Maru hashtag, academic parent, and that's the tweet. So for those of you who are not familiar with Kobayashi Maru, let me explain why this is like the most brilliant tweet that anyone's ever written. So the Kobayashi Maru will link to the Wikipedia page in the show notes is a training exercise in in the Star Trek universe that is designed to test the character of Starfleet Academy cadets. So they have to like go do the simulation they're captaining the ship, they have to make some important choice whatever, but the simulation is set up such that it is impossible to win. You cannot win it no matter what you do, no matter what choices you make, it is not going to arrive at like at you know at a winning conclusion. Lots people try to you know, keep trying all of these different ways. Never ever win. And and when asked why you would design a test that's impossible to win? the creator's say something along the lines of the point isn't to try to win. The point is to be presented with an impossible situation and still see whether people conduct themselves with character. So you're in a situation that you can't possibly beat. But do you just fall down screaming and give up? Or do you do the best you can, even when you know you can't win? So Chris, put in the context of academic parenting, but I think it could just be like Kobayashi Maru hashtag like pandemic living. And, and it's a, it works just as well, because it's the idea that like, it, you know, I can't possibly do my job as well, in four hours a day, as I do under normal circumstances, like, I just, it's just can't it's not possible. But, but the point isn't to try to do that, right. Like, the point isn't to try to live the lives we were living. But I mean, I would encourage us to think that the point isn't to try to do exactly what we were doing before the pandemic. And you just do it in half the time. You know, and, and I really love this because it was a super useful reframe, for me to just like, recognize that this is kind of a no win situation like, it's, it's impossible to, is it possible to do it. And so then the goal becomes not trying to do it and feeling bad about yourself when you can't, but just trying to do the best you can and recognizing that that's all you that's, you know, that's that's all we can expect to ourselves. Jonathan Peelle 26:38 Yeah, well, I mean, it sounds like, yeah, it would kind of re reset your expectations a little bit, right. I mean, just as what you said, and I think, or at least for me, but I think for a lot of us, we sort of have the expectations are unchanged from a year ago about our health or productivity or so social engagement. And because those things are impossible for most of us, like we're always disappointed, right? At least for me, it feels like you know, every day, I'm like, I didn't do the things I wanted to do, because I'm still expecting to be able to kind of, you know, live live life, quote, unquote, normally. And so by reframing that, instead of saying, hey, you can't win the way that you can't win by those rules, or win, but you don't I mean, kind of succeed, you have to kind of have a different perspective on it. And that that can be encouraged, I think, yeah. Julia Strand 27:25 One of the things that I've been thinking a lot about lately, too, is, you know, it's all well and good for us, who are healthy and employed and have tenure to say, like, Oh, yeah, well, we can't get our best work done. So I guess we'll just have to be okay with that. But, but I've also been thinking about how we are going to ensure that for the people who, you know, we're hiring in two years who have big holes on their CV, because they didn't get anything done during this time. For exactly these reasons, you know, how we can ensure that, that doesn't systematically hurt some people more than others, right, that we are aware of the inequities and how this pandemic affects people, and are sensitive to the fact that like, we have to have different expectations about what people have done during this time than than we would have before. So I think it's useful both in terms of like, I don't know, helping us have reasonable expectations for ourselves. But I think it is super important that we also think about how we can apply this after the fact when, especially when we're evaluating other people. Jonathan Peelle 28:29 I think that'll be you know, of course, it's, it will continue to be important for a long time, right. So I think now, in, you know, February of 2021, many people are thinking a lot about about, you know, pandemic related changes and accommodations and things. But two years from now, you know, knock on wood, if things are better, people might start to not think about it so much. But actually, all of the work that you would have done in 2020, and 2021, might be being published then or might have led to the grant that is going to be on your CV in two or three years. And so the effects of this are going to be felt for you know, a very long time. And so, I think we have to sort of Remember to advocate for people who have been affected that way. I mean, in addition to, you know, in our own our own decisions, thinking about that, but also kind of being vocal to remind other people who are I think now it's human nature, we're gonna we're gonna forget what else what have other people done that has helped you get through this time, Julia, if anything? Unknown Speaker 29:36 Yeah, um, Julia Strand 29:39 been nice. You know, in the times where like, I have asked for extra time with something, or, you know, like, screwed something up for my students. And they have now been nice instead of Oh, we understand whatever it is. I think just like other people, you know, being kind and acknowledging what's going on. I had my sweet three year old had a like, big mega meltdown, tantrum. Right next to me while I was teaching the other day, I was just like, you know, staring at the 30 faces of my sweet students who are like, laughing, but also like, shocked, oh, well, my child just screams No, but I want mama right now. And I'm like, ah, God, what do I do? Um, and, and, you know, many of them afterwards, like, said nice things and asked if she was okay, and whatever. And I was like, I don't know that really nice feelings of nice feelings of solidarity. Like they're not just rolling their eyes and being like, what's the matter with her? She can't die. Um, so I think just, you know, mostly people, people being nice and kind and acknowledging the difficulties of the situation. I mean, yes, Jonathan Peelle 30:57 yeah, no, I mean, the same, I think something that, well, something that can be hard is when I'm having a hard time, it takes sometimes a little more effort to be nice to other people. Because I'd like to say that I'm always equally nice to everyone all the time. But, you know, sadly, that's not true. I get grumpy and I, I get short with people, and I get impatient, and so on. And I, you know, I try really hard not to take that out on people, but I'm sure that I do. But I think you know, it's hard because this is a time when we all need a little bit of extra, you know, consideration, and flexibility and so on. And I've I've really benefited from that myself. So I have to work, you know, extra hard to kind of pay that forward. So what are some specific things so? Well, so as you said, so students in my classes have been great. And they've been really understanding I've tried tried to communicate what's going on and be super honest. But then if I end up changing the syllabus, 15 times or you know, mess up some technology thing people are, have not yelled at me, which has been great, because it's stressful for me. Yeah, things like, deadlines on extension deadlines, they're extensions on deadlines, you know, for various things that have been nice, too. So. So So likewise, then I tried to cut people some slack, if they tell me they're going to do a thing and don't do it or, or get, you know, get quote unquote, busy with stuff, then I, I try to just roll with it, you know, and not, hopefully not nag people too much. Yeah. Julia Strand 32:31 How much do you share with your trainees, students, colleagues about the stuff that's hard for you? Like, do you? Do you talk about it? Or do you try to kind of play those cards close to your chest? Both? Jonathan Peelle 32:47 I guess you'd have to ask them really, I think, you know, one of the things this is like, is applicable in the pandemic, but also like, in non pandemic times, also is, and so this is like a, you know, anyway, this is true for lots of other topics, also, but I'm going to apply it in this context, because that's where it's relevant to me, which is parenting stuff, which I, I never understood fully before we had kids, but my colleagues were talking about and I would nod my head and say, Oh, yes, I understand you have to go take care of blah, blah, blah. But now I'm the one who has to go take care of the Baba blah, and I'm like, oh, man, what a headache. So not to complain, I love our children, it is wonderful. But just the the task switching and the time demands is something that was hard for me to understand ahead of time. So I think that I feel like I don't adequately communicate how hard that is. And I also, you know, I don't know if I could, because a lot of the people that I'm having meetings with, don't have a reference point for that. Julia Strand 33:45 Yeah, the times when I have found it, like, helpful to talk about it is often when I'm talking with students who are having a hard time themselves and, you know, maybe blaming themselves for for their hard time, you know, saying, I don't have a right to complain, and I don't understand why this is hard for me, and I can't just, you know, get my act together or whatever. I will sometimes share, like, you know, I'm not doing my best work right now, either. And, you know, explain a bit about about what that looks like, in the hopes that, you know, if they help respect me, seeing that, you know, seeing seeing someone that they respect, is also dealing with some of the same things that they're dealing with. That, you know, that that might help them feel less guilty and responsible, you know, for for it themselves. Jonathan Peelle 34:37 Yeah. Well, I think that's in a way, you know, something that I think you and I are hoping is that by continuing this conversation today, and maybe other times too, but like also including some practical tips, because I'd love to kind of get into that with you a little bit at some point. We can kind of encourage everyone through this right. So I think I think you know, there's like the kind of the big picture issue. have like holding yourself to a particular standard or having been nice to yourself and other people. And then there's like, Okay, well, I have today, how do I structure my day? And do I do anything differently now than I used to? That's, that's been helpful. Yeah. One thing, I'm just transitioning to that right now, because because we have time, one thing that I have not entirely successfully done, but I've been trying to do is to have more phone calls instead of zoom meetings. Because for a lot of meetings with a lot of people, it's almost as effective or are as effective or more effective. And the reason I like doing that is, I don't have to worry about video stuff. And so if I want to stay inside my study, or my office, or whatever, I can, like walk around the room or stretch or whatever. But I can also go for walk outside. And one of my problems has just been being cooped up at home for days on end, and not getting outside at all. And so if I can go for a half hour walk, I mean, frequently, I'm happier. And I'm kind of a better conversationalist, then. But it's also just really good for overall, you know, well, mental health and also physical health. Julia Strand 36:15 Yeah, yeah. Jonathan Peelle 36:16 We haven't figured out how to record a podcast while we go for a walk. And it might be kind of noisy. So that's probably not so good. But yeah, phone meetings are good. trying to think of anything else, like no, everything else is just hard. Do you have any, do you have like, do you typically have like a routine in terms of like, morning or afternoon? Is work time for you? Or does it vary from day to day? Julia Strand 36:41 It varies. Yeah, it varies day to day, depending on when I when I teach. And I think the other the other thing that has been helpful is just like, making sure I'm taking good care of myself. So getting enough sleep, exercising, you know, like, that's, yeah, that that that really is helpful for me too. Jonathan Peelle 37:01 Yeah, that's a good point. And that also took me a while I anyway, the exercising has come and gone, the sleep was not good for a very long time. Because my my approach was, you know, do all the things that have to be done. And then our, you know, any of our kids are usually in bed by about eight, and then kind of clean up the kitchen and do all the things that has to be done that is nine, and then I can either go to bed, or I can try to work for a couple of hours. And I never do very good work then but I was felt like I had to try to catch up. And I've been trying to fight against that. And actually, I mean, you know, anyway, go to bed before before 11, which has been really good for me. Of course, I say that. And then like I've been anyway, if I have stuff that's due for class the next day, then I will just stay up and do it. But I'm trying to not make that a habit, which is really easy for me. Julia Strand 37:57 Right? And, and only doing the things that actually, like you have to do for class tomorrow, where you're gonna, you know, let your students down. Right, then I could work on this paper that's due, right while Yeah. Um, the other thing that I have found that is helpful is just trying to help everybody else as much as I possibly can, I there's a day last week where I had like, just a wall of student meetings, I was like, gonna spend six hours or something in meetings. And that's, that's, it's challenging, because, you know, if I only have like, 15 or 20 minutes with a student, I want to like really give them my all because that's the only time they get me for and I don't want to give them everything. But it's just very tiring to like be giving it your all that many nonstop. And so I was a little bit like, Oh, it's gonna be really exhausting day, you know what I'm gonna do, I'm just gonna, like, make sure that I say something super nice to every single one of them. And help them feel better about whatever thing they're working on, or, you know, give them the compliments that I haven't given them about the work they've done so far, or things like that, and you know, just like really working hard to help other people. be in a better spot. Yes, you know, that's helpful, too. It's also it's also work, but it's like, I don't know, that's going to work that I'm happy, really happy to put in even when I'm feeling maxed out, because helps everybody. Jonathan Peelle 39:22 Well, that's good. And it also I think having the mindset of trying to encourage other people instead of like, dreading another meeting, because I you know, I do I feel like I don't know if we actually have more meetings now it feels like more meetings because everything is on zoom. And so I mean, there's like zoom fatigue, because zoom is annoying, and it's just for me, it's also just meeting fatigue, but just meeting after meeting is it does wear on me. But I think rather than sort of like cursing I love all my colleagues so it's nothing against them. But I just like you know, I'm a little bit sick of meetings but viewing it as an opportunity to encourage people I think it's kind of a nice twist on that and nice reframing. Yeah. The other thing, I have two other general thoughts about meetings, that might be helpful again, true all the time. But I've, I've been coming back to these strategies in, in pandemic times, is a blocking off times on my calendar ahead of time for things that I know that I need to do for myself. Which, which, you know, could be, in theory, this would be like writing and data analysis, although that usually never happens. But anyway, I try to block off, you know, travel time to class or prep time for class or other times of day where I find meetings to be particularly difficult. Or if I just need a break between like, this block of meetings and this other block, I'll just put in an event in my calendar to remind me and other people not to book meetings there. I still use calendly, to book all my meetings. And so if people say, Oh, can I meet with you, I say here, sign up here, this link. And so if I have an event on the calendar, then it will it will not allow them to book a meeting there. So I partly do that, because it puts some of the scheduling burden on the people meeting with me, and partly because I am weak. And if you asked me in person, I'll say I could meet then sure. But if the computer does it, the computer will actually protect my time better. Yeah, exactly. It's working. Right? Yeah, leave him alone. Um, and then the other thing is, all of my calendly meetings, default to 30 minutes, instead of an hour, or 45 minutes, or whatever. And I do have lots of hour long meetings for various things. But for a lot of meetings, a half hour is really plenty. And I would rather be have shorter meetings. So sometimes that means you have to chitchat a little bit less and be a little bit more focused and efficient. But I think that's fine. And again, if you schedule an hour, people, oftentimes the meeting will take up the whole time, even if you don't need it. But if you have half hour meetings, or 20 minute meetings, or whatever you think works for you, you can kind of motion a few more and then hopefully block off a bigger chunk after that. The point is not to have back to back meetings. But now you have a lot more meetings, the point is to have the same number of meetings take up less time. So you have time for other things. Yep. One thing that I tried, well, I didn't try very hard. But I had the idea to do. And I wanted to have. So we've been using gather for for lab stuff. And I had this idea because you know, one of the things that I really liked was being able to pop into the lab walk around, say, hey, look, I have 15 minutes, I can do a quick swing through see how people are doing. And a lot of times people will say, Oh, I have this one question for you, you know, and it's like a five minute question. And then we're done. And I've helped them and they've gotten their question answered, and so on. But now it's like, if they have that question, they'll either make a half hour zoom meeting to ask me that one question. And they can't make it for a week and it makes everyone delayed, or like they won't ask me or I won't know what's going on. And so we tried using gather for like being on there when you're in the lab. So I could kind of do a virtual swinging at people's desks. But it turns out, it's a it's a little I've been very bad about it, because I'm away from my desk, and I'm back at my desk and I like I don't log in as much as I could, but I might try to restart that as like, you know, anyway, you can come find me and asked me a quick question. And that's totally fine. You don't have to make a half hour meeting with me. Do you have any like informal interaction stuff like that with your lab? Um, Julia Strand 43:45 we use slack a lot. So mostly when they have quick things, they just slack me and and I'll sometimes do like, oh, let's quick jump in the lab Zoom Room for a minute. And that's that's working pretty well, I mean, that the stuff that we're doing right now is less demanding than usual, given the circumstances. But it's working, it's working fine. Good. I thought of one more thing I wanted to say about the Kobayashi Maru or Kobayashi Maru, depending on who you ask. When I saw that tweet, I texted it to my friend Emily. And I said, Do you know this reference, and it and she, she called him and we talked, she said, Well, the first thing that I thought of was Kobayashi like the eating champion, and Maru, like the cat on the internet who tries to fit in increasingly small boxes. And she was like, so how are those things related to academic parenting, but but then as she talks about where she's like, but then I kind of realized that like, that kind of works, it's like trying to cram too much food in your body trying to cram too much cat in a box, trying to cram too many roles, you know, into into a life and I loved it, that that's not what anybody meant at all, but you can still find a way to make sure it works. I like it. Unknown Speaker 45:02 All right. Julia Strand 45:03 So dear listeners, we wish you all the best in in whatever situation you're in whether it is a unwinnable Kobayashi Maru or some other state of pandemic fine. We wish you luck at taking good care of yourself and the people around you and would encourage you to be gentle with yourself about the expectations you have for what is possible during the times of pandemic fine. Jonathan Peelle 45:30 And thank you for emailing us and letting us know your thoughts. That has been something that has been really encouraging to me and Julia and we really appreciate all of you for listening and, and for reaching out. Julia Strand 45:43 Amen. We'll talk to you next time. All right. See you later, everybody. Take care.