Julia Strand  00:02
Hello, and welcome to the Juice and the Squeeze. I'm Julia strand here as always with my co host, Jonathan Peelle. Hello, Jonathan. 

Jonathan Peelle  00:09
Hey, Julia!

Julia Strand  00:10
How are things?

Jonathan Peelle  00:12
Things are good things are busy.

Julia Strand  00:15
you got some you got some big news?

Jonathan Peelle  00:17
I do. So I'm moving to Northeastern University this summer after 10 years at Washington University in St. Louis!

Julia Strand  00:25
Yeah. What is what's Northeastern is mascot? I want to say Go

Jonathan Peelle  00:30
Huskies Huskies Go Huskies? Yep. I mean, okay, so so, you know, full disclosure, I have not been to very many WashU sports games. I may not be to very many Northeastern sports games, but I will probably read for the Huskies any chance I get?

Julia Strand  00:49
Yes. And make sure you know, you buy a sweatshirt with a husky on it or something.

Jonathan Peelle  00:53
Yeah, exactly. That's on my to do list.

Julia Strand  00:57
So you moved to begin in the fall of this year?

Jonathan Peelle  01:00
Yep. My start date is in August. And so I'll be there for the fall, not teaching in the fall. And so I mean, many of you, dear listeners know all this. But I'm currently at the medical school at Wash U. And at Northeastern, I will not be at the medical school because they don't have one. And so I have a center appointment, which is the Center for cognitive and brain health. New Center, which is which is great, which I couldn't talk about some time. But did my department appointments, which are separate are in communication sciences, which is my primary department, and psychology, which is my secondary. And so one funny, funny thing about this move is, on the one hand, I've been a, you know, a professor of some sort for 10 years, and I feel like, I know what I'm doing. But I know what I'm doing in this, like, in my current, my current role, which is like very limited, and so now all of a sudden, I'm getting thrown into like a very new role, where I have like committees to be on, I've never been on a committee in my whole life. Like, I know, like, professors are on committees, but I'm not because I'm at the medical school, we don't have committees, they just want me to do research. And so it's going to be a, like, a learning curve, just sort of job wise, I think to manage, you know, more more and or different teaching responsibilities and, you know, administrative and like service stuff, which, which is all great. And bet many of you guys do this already, but it'll be new for me.

Julia Strand  02:27
Yeah, well, I bet that'll lead to some good podcasts

Jonathan Peelle  02:29
every week, I'll be like: "Julia, I have to this committee, what do I do?"

Julia Strand  02:34
I will have things to say.

Jonathan Peelle  02:37
Good. Yeah. Anyway, we're, we're excited. So this is what I put on Twitter. But also for those of you who aren't on Twitter. My wife and I both have family sort of back out east. And so we've been looking for ways to get closer to family. And so you know, kind of like there's anyone can move for any reason. And it's all fine. But this was definitely not like, oh, well, she was bad, I need a better job. It was a great job. And I don't know if I would have left otherwise. But the chance to be closer to family at this time in our lives with young kids and parents who are still around and healthy and stuff like that was was really the driving factor. So it makes sense. I'm super excited actually about Northeastern. It's like an awesome, seems like an awesome place. And I have great colleagues there. And all that will be fantastic. But but also it's not like, Oh, I've been looking to move for a long time. So it's kind of it's a bittersweet kind of kind of thing.

Julia Strand  03:36
Yeah. So it's a time of big change, Jonathan moving off to his next institution. It's also I just wanted to talk a little bit about the Carlton recently had our graduation. And this was the first graduation that felt kind of normal ish post COVID. There wasn't in person graduation last year, but it had all kinds of strict rules about things. And there wasn't one in 2020, of course, or in person one and I was sitting at graduation and thinking about, you know, transitions and all of this. And I just adore graduation ceremonies and has tried to think about why and I think it actually didn't the big is kind of a nice point about stuff that we've talked about in the past two, which is what I think is so special about graduation, is that it's an opportunity to sit with like 1000s of people who are all gathered together to like, share in this emotional experience and ritual that is centered around being proud of young people for learning stuff. Like what what a what more beautiful thing is that all get together to like celebrate and honor and in our culture we have so few opportunities for for ceremonies, right like there aren't there just aren't But that many ceremonies, at least, you know, in my life, and so having one that is all about like, being proud of young people for learning, man, that is just that is really my jam. So I had a delightful time of graduation. And especially so one of the things that Carlton does a graduation is after graduation happens and like the names have been read and everything. We do this thing called the gauntlet where faculty get up first and like walk out of the ceremony and form a single file tunnel that goes like all the way across our main quad the bald spot. And then the graduates like walk through this tunnel, and you just get to like high five or hug or fist bump, or shout at or whatever. And it's so fun to see those clever sweep phases walking down and get to hug them and be so proud of them. And man oh man, I love it. I love it. I'm so happy it's back.

Jonathan Peelle  06:02
I mean, that's cool. Do you remember your own your undergraduate graduation?

Julia Strand  06:08
Yeah, yeah, it was, um, it was nice. I didn't have a very strong emotional reaction to it. Um, yeah, I don't Yeah, I don't know. I mean, like, my parents really wanted me to do it. And so I did. And we had family. And it was nice. I remember mostly having my head kind of be caught up in the logistics of where we go into dinner. And I have to be moved out by this state. And, you know, those those things, but I don't know now with a little distance now. I moved by it. It's for it's for us older folks, not for the young people themselves. So

Jonathan Peelle  06:42
you think I mean, this is probably not true for everyone. I'm sure it's not true for everyone. But after four years in college, and sort of looking forward to this, I mean, many people as a sophomore assume they're going to graduate, right? As a junior, you assume you're gonna graduate, you're a senior, you're looking forward to but you plan it. And so then it happens. It might be exciting, but you sort of like, like, yeah, like I this was the plan. But you know, obviously people stuff doesn't go according to plan, but for, for lots of people it does. And I feel like you almost take you take it for granted in a way for but then as a faculty member who is really invested in, in education as sort of like, I don't know what the word is, like. I mean, it's like a calling a moral imperative. Like we I think many of us think that this is really, really superduper important. And we put a lot of ourselves into helping these students. And we also see those students who, who don't take it for granted and who have various struggles and so on. And so seeing them sort of as a group, right, kind of having reached this milestone, I think, is pretty important.

Julia Strand  07:51
Yeah, and, and also, if it's an opportunity, you know, it's very easy in any job, especially in academia to get kind of mired in the details of I got a grade this stuff, my grant renewals, do and blah, blah, blah. And like having those opportunities to just like, pause and sit back and think about, like, what it is that we are doing as part of this institution. And you know what it means to educate young people. I think it's really nice to have those kind of big picture moments too. And graduation just totally does that for me. Yeah. Love all the all the like nonsense, and the costumes and the marching order. Just the only thing I love more than Pomp is circumstance now.

Jonathan Peelle  08:33
Well, that's great. Yeah, I do think it's very cool. Still on my bucket list, is I never I never got a robe. So I got my PhD from Brandeis University. And I never got a Brandeis robe. Because they're expensive. If you want to buy your own Rhode Island, it's kind of silly and whatever. And at WashU they would give us you know, free robes if you attend graduation, but but they're like, kind of wash your colors like green or whatever. And so on my bucket list is to get my Brandeis blue robe so that when I go to graduation, I can represent.

Julia Strand  09:06
So I got I got my WashU robes, not like right when I graduated, but when I don't know maybe like my second year of having a faculty job. And one of the things that I was really struck by I don't know, maybe I'm being naughty talking about this publicly. But one of the things that I was really struck by is when you call the like, company that bestows robes upon people. They say like, What school did you go to? What degree did you get like what division was it? But they don't actually ask for any documentation that you actually got that degree from that school. And I was like, wait a minute, could I get robes I can just pick up the coolest color robes from anywhere that I want. I didn't do that. The washi ones are beautiful, and I was happy to have those but

Jonathan Peelle  09:50
Oxford . Yes.

Julia Strand  09:53
Just the most colorful and have the most ridiculous hat. That's what I want.

Jonathan Peelle  09:57
Well, I do that is part of the fun, right? It's like you is trying to look at all the other faculty members and trying to figure out, you know, where they went. It was. I mean, there's a lot of schools I know, but there's a lot more that I don't know. So yeah, it's kind of fun to do you have a favorite. Sorry, do you have a favorite, you know, an institution for their garb.

Julia Strand  10:18
The the Dartmouth hats are particularly ridiculous, I really liked those. I also I kind of kicked around the idea of making some because I, I have dabbled in making clothes in the past. And it's not like they have to be form fitting or anything. But it turns out even just that much development is expensive to buy.

Jonathan Peelle  10:37
But you could put in like all sorts of cool secret pockets or like accoutrement. Exactly, right, a wand pocket a phone pocket, you know, a sword scabbard, or all the stuff that you might need.  Alright, what you should be thinking about this, when you get yours, it will I'm going to order from you think about how much you're gonna charge. So Julia, we have a little bit of follow up from like, months and months ago, because of our our slow release schedule. I think it was actually the end of last year, I horrified you by telling you my plans for email. Can you summarize for our listeners what I said I was gonna wait, I said I was gonna do

Julia Strand  11:22
Oh, nope, nope, I cannot. I remember my emotional reaction, but I don't remember the details. Yeah,

Jonathan Peelle  11:29
well, the whole point was, so this is sort of in a broader context of, you know, time management, and also in the context of that book, 4000 weeks that you and I have both read independently and talked about a little bit. And, you know, I've been thinking about I mean, email is super important. And I feel like, so my kind of default approach to email is, which I think is more what you do is, you know, deal with all of it right away and efficiently. And then you can rest. And, but I also noticed that other people had a different approach, which was sort of like, get to what they can and don't get to what they don't get to. And so lots of people that I work with, who I respect a lot, and they also they they make it 10 or 20 times as much email as I do, whatever, but they certainly do not get to all of it. And I know that because I don't get replies all the time. So I started a little experiment last year, which was, instead of trying to deal with email, there's a lot of metaphors for this. It's sort of like, oh, I don't know, and they're all they're all bad. I don't know what they all are. But it's sort of like, you know, building up the ship with a little cup, while it's while it's sinking. Or, you know, emptying this ocean with a teaspoon. It's sort of like, even the times when I when I actually dealt with all the email, but that meant that I wasn't doing stuff that I really thought was important, right? So like, if you asked me, Jonathan, what are the three most important things that you want to do with your career? Like, email would not be one, two, or three? But I would I would spend all my time doing it. And right, so if I only have half an hour, do I want to do email? Or do you want to write a book or write a paper or whatever? So I started thinking about

Julia Strand  13:10
you write a book and a half an hour if need be...

Jonathan Peelle  13:12
totally! Well, no, but you could write it, you could write a paragraph, right. And so and so I started, you know, just experimenting a little bit with a different approach to email, which was trying to actively trying not to respond to everything. And this is very hard for me, I think some people it comes naturally to because they don't, they don't care, or they're just not as organized, or they just literally can't, and so they give up. But for me, I'm sort of at this point where I could if I tried, and I'm actively trying not to. And so what I did, I was trying to only check my email, like a couple times a week, and I have like a special filter that would like, you know, five special people, like my department chair, I would check that all the time. But but but most people would just go into the pile, and I tried not to, to always look at the pile anyway. So I would actually, I would say largely that was pretty successful, in that I did not miss out on any big things that I know of the caveat that I know of, I don't think I offended anyone. And I honestly I probably anyway, just because of my personality, I probably did actually write back to almost the same number of people. But But what I avoided was the constant checking and worrying and guilt about it. So I reduced the kind of mental burden of it, even if I didn't actually reduce the number of replies that I sent. I think there were like three emails. I didn't reply to that I like saw it I was like, oh, I should do that. But I allowed myself not to, not to do it. The the wrench in the works was that like, midway through this quote unquote experiment was when All the jobs stuff was going on with Northeastern, and also soy, which also resulted in a flurry of emails at WashU for stuff. And so then I didn't feel comfortable, like ignoring for a while. So I sort of like got off that bandwagon. And now I'm now I'm back on to responding to everything very quickly to try to just facilitate stuff. But anyway, I think my plan is to try to go back to a less email a sort of sort of life, and we'll see if that's effective or not.

Julia Strand  15:31
Yeah, well, I'm glad you found something that works for you. And I think, you know, there's lots of different ways that people can go about it. And I've even found different approaches that work well, for me at different times. I recently took email off my phone. And in part just to make me I would kind of just out of force of habit. Like, just check it, even if I wasn't really interested in just like, pick up my phone to check it. And now it at least makes me say, do you want like, like, think to myself, do you actually want to check your emails right now? Because the other thing is I have found, there are very few times when checking my email brings joyful, right? Sometimes where it's like, oh, god, yeah, I gotta do that. Shoot, that's the you know, like, there are lots of times when it like brings stress. And so really, you know, making a conscious decision to be like, this is an opportunity for you to by all likelihood introduced stress into your life. Do you want to do that now or not? And so that's, that's been a useful, a useful change for me.

Jonathan Peelle  16:30
Yeah, I guess that's, that's yeah, maybe the bigger picture is, is, to some degree, I'm like, I'm framing it as like ignoring email or not reading back to people. But in practice, like I said, I actually probably doesn't change that habit very much. But it means I'm interacting less with it. And so it has reduced my stress around around it. And also, I know that I shouldn't do this. And I'm like, I'm like the number one evangelist for not using your email as a to do list. And also, I still do that all the time now. And so I pull up my email, even there's nothing new, I see the five emails that I've saved there, because there's stuff I can't, I can't do now. And so it's just reminding me about the, you know, stuff, I owe people and stuff that I'm laid on, or whatever. And again, in that moment, it's not very helpful. Yeah, I'm about to go to bed. I can't go do the thing right now. And so now I'm just like, feeling stressed about it. So yeah, I think, anyway, I do, I'm a big proponent for trying to be intentional about it and finding what works for you. And that is going to be different than what works for someone else. And so Joe, and I probably are going to find different ways to do it. But at least we're trying to think about, like, what are the consequences of our approach? You know, hopefully,

Julia Strand  17:42
yeah. And your listeners, we always love to hear from you and hear about how you do things and what, what, what has been working for you or not working for you. Of course, you can always contact us at the juice and squeeze@gmail.com

Jonathan Peelle  17:57
Oh, yes, I love I mean, this is I would just anyway, even if we don't talk about it on air, which we may well, but I would just I just geek out over people's like workflows and how they handle handle stuff, like emails and calendars and things like that. Yeah, Julia, for the future. Can we pencil in talking about calendar stuff? I know that I think we've done a little bit in the past, and I think I'm potentially more enthusiastic about this than you are, but

Julia Strand  18:25
I'm fine with it. As long as it comes with a content warning that lets people know that it's gonna be unless you are a productivity nerd. Oh, boring.

Jonathan Peelle  18:34
Well, yes, okay, great. That's fine.

Julia Strand  18:36
But you know, for the, for the nerds among us who are into that I would be happy to nerd out about that stuff. Okay, to be clear, I'm very into that stuff. I just, you don't want to be careful with

Jonathan Peelle  18:46
this. Other people are here for both of our listeners. We're here for hearing us talk about stuff. Yeah.

Julia Strand  18:51
Bring on the nerd dog. All right, well, we are School's out for summer. And we thought that this would be a nice opportunity to talk about you. We spend a lot of time talking about our work lives, and how we do email, and et cetera, et cetera. But of course, work isn't and shouldn't be the only things that we do with our lives. And so we thought we would take an episode to talk about hobbies and extracurriculars and the things we do outside of work that that bring us joy, and how we make time for them and how we figure out what they want, what they what we want them to be, and so forth. So it's hobby day. And this was kind of inspired, or I've been thinking about it a lot lately, as a result of 4000 weeks the book that Jonathan mentioned, should we just come out and say this is now just a 4000 weeks fan podcast? Sure. If we keep referencing it, and there's a there's a really a great bit and that's that's talking about hobbies and the things we do for finding the things, you know, things people enjoy. There's an example, that Rod Stewart that famous, you know, rock and roller, apparently is a big model train enthusiast, and has built this like, epic replica of really Manhattan or something in model trains. And, and is so intuitive that sometimes when he traveled, he would like, get a second hotel room just to have his train stuff. So he could like, work on it while he's on tour and things like that. And the point that the author was making about this is that model trains is like a nerdy enough habit for someone who's like trying to be a cool rock and roller, that, you know, he's not doing it like to build his reputation, right? It's not like, oh, yeah, my hobby is like, Hang Gliding or like, you know, extreme, whatever. It's nerdy. And so if he is willing to do something that is like, that embarrassing as I mean, I think model trains are cool. I'm not this is what you know, what the author is saying about Rod Stewart and his image. But if he's like doing something that is like a potentially embarrassing hobby, it must be because he just really loves it. Right? He's like, really into doing it. And so I was thinking about, like, what are the hobbies of mine that I have? Not because I want to be cool or anything, but just like, What do I love enough that I'm like, willing to do even though it's pretty nerdy. So I'm thinking about cultivating embarrassing hobbies that I must only be doing because I love them. It's not model trains. I haven't quite figured out what the what a nerdy one will be. But I like I like that framing of it. Right, is that it is something that is so enjoyable for its own sake, that you do it, even if it comes at some cost. In terms of being cool. I don't know, that probably matters less for many of us than for Rod Stewart.

Jonathan Peelle  21:49
Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, so a historical hobby of mine, is playing the French horn. And I feel like that definitely goes in the category of like, you don't do it to be cool.

Julia Strand  22:03
I'm gonna get angry letters from French horn players, you

Jonathan Peelle  22:05
know, don't understand. We all know, we all know, if not cool, it's okay. So this was I was a music major as an undergraduate and played hours and hours a day. And then, you know, since then I've sort of lapsed, and I had a couple periods where I would kind of get back to it. And, but I probably haven't played now in, you know, 15 years or something like that. And so it's not an active hobby, but it's on my list. And one of the things and this is something I actually, like, I this is a diversion, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, Julia. So for me, with the French horn, I can't do it occasionally, like, I don't need to do it and be pretty good at it, or like, not do it. And so playing like an hour a month is not going to happen, I have to play like every day, almost every day of the week, and then find a group to play with. So it feels like a really big, you know, commitment. And that's one reason I like shied away from it, because I just know myself and I know that if I start doing it, it's gonna like, not take it won't take over my life, but it will take over an hour a day. And I don't know if I have that hour a day. So, so in that sense, it's like, it's a hobby in that it's not my career. And I enjoy it, but it also takes on this lake, there's a debt or something you don't I mean, it's not me there's a commitment there. And so anyway, so I don't know what your what your current list of hobbies are. And I'm but I'm just curious to hear if you feel like any of them also come with a commitment or a debt or if they're just like, you know, more carefree.

Julia Strand  23:39
Yeah, yeah, so I definitely recognize some of my hobbies are more conducive to, I'm just gonna sit down and do this for a minute than others are. And the ones that are more like, the time or equipment or space or whatever intensive are definitely the ones that I go more in like fits and starts with where I'll be like, I'm super into it for a while. But if it's not the kind of thing you can dabble in, then, you know, it maybe doesn't last, or I don't do it as consistently so like, I can't remember if we've talked about my art before or not, but I make sculptures out of Vintage Books. You can check it out at hokey Stokes each Okay, E y s t o ke s.blogspot.com. We're just Google Julius strange book carving. And it involves taking a vintage book cutting into like cutting through the cover and then into the pages with exacto knives. So it just reveals the illustrations that are contained in the book. So it's kind of like a window into the contents of the book. And it's super fun and I love it and have done it since grad school. But it is super messy. You know, it just leads to like little scraps of paper all over the place. It requires tools that I can't really leave out now that I have small children because they're like sharp and dangerous and sticky. And so that's That's a hobby that has definitely taken a hit since COVID. And my art studio turned into a home office. And it's harder to like, go back and forth between them. And so that's when the definitely like, has more, has more setup cost.

Jonathan Peelle  25:17
By the way, those are amazing. I mean, I have known about this for a while, and I've enjoyed looking at them. But like, it is such a cool. Anyway, just such a visually stunning art form, I really enjoy looking at them. So anyway, so everyone should go look at hokey Stokes, type blogspot.com and take a look at these. And I also like, how all of the different ones, I'm looking at it now, by the way, it's all the different ones you're done. Like, like, you know, they kind of have different personalities to them. Yeah, right. I mean, it seems like probably based on the content and the topic and things like that, which is just really super cool.

Julia Strand  25:56
Yeah, well, thank you. It's, it's a really fun thing to do. And I think, because so much of the work that I do, is in my head, you know, like, even when we write papers now, like, we don't even get copies of journals, so like, even get a physical copy of papers that I write. And so yeah, I really love having a thing that I can do with my hands that like gives me this sense of completion. And there's also a thing too, I really love doing science books and reference books. And it's fun to like take visuals that are usually just used or valued for the information that they convey, and then kind of give them an opportunity to be viewed as art objects as well. It's a fun kind of transformation process. So yeah, it's a lot of fun. Actually, I just had a gallery show in April at a at a gallery, up in up in, in the Minneapolis St. Paul area. And yeah, that was really fun to fund to get to go and show I've done I've done gallery shows before. But this is the first time that I've done a gallery show where I was able to go to the opening, like the opening reception. And I totally just like, hung out over by myself and like eavesdropped on what people said about them. And then a couple times just like couldn't even contain myself and be like, it's my I did it. I'm so glad you like it. Thank

Jonathan Peelle  27:21
you for coming. Julia, how did you get interested in doing that?

Julia Strand  27:26
Um, yeah, so it was it was early in grad school. And I was into I was into like sewing and just making stuff in general, and upcycling and you know, going to thrift stores and finding things in fixing them. And I found actually, even before grad school, I had been at a bookstore and found a gorgeous set of like 1960s encyclopedias sitting in a free like in the free bin out in front of the bookstore. And they were like, these, you know, gorgeous leather bound, like beautiful objects. But, you know, they're encyclopedias from the 60s. So like, they don't have an entry for gene in them, you know, they're like, yep. And, and so it was I just started thinking about, like, surely I should, like there's, there's something you can do with these, like, these are beautiful as objects, even if even if, even if the information isn't current. And I just tried a bunch of stuff I like messed around with, I tried making them into purses. And I tried, you know, like different kinds of sculptures and cutting through them. And I just kind of finally landed on this thing that I like, and I have been refining my technique over the years. And now I've like figured out, figured out, you know how I like to do it. And so yeah, it's kind of been a slow, slowly evolving, slowly evolving. Yeah.

Jonathan Peelle  28:54
Well, I mean, that's great for it seems like it's good for artistic discovery, but also for like, a, like a hobby. Like they keep you interested because there's like, sounds like it's it's gratifying because you have a thing you're done with but also you're also refining and kind of working on it. Right? You're not just doing one thing over and over.

Julia Strand  29:13
Yeah. Also, probably an encyclopedia from the 1960s does have an entry for Gene and I was trying to think of something. Yes, so the I don't, I don't read all the encyclopedias from the 60s, as you can tell.

Jonathan Peelle  29:29
Well, anyway, your general point we've taken the entry for gene would not be as complete as it might

Julia Strand  29:34
Thank you. That's that is what I meant. That's exactly what I meant. Well,

Jonathan Peelle  29:39
it would not have an entry for auditory cognitive neuroscience obviously. Be complete.

Julia Strand  29:44
Not be that complete. Yeah. But more recently, I've also gotten into a this is actually this I think this counts as a pretty nerdy, somewhat embarrassing hobby, which is doing cross stitch and what I like about it is that it's the kind of thing where I can just leave it out in the living room and pick it up and work on it for five minutes or something. And it isn't it doesn't require a lot of setup and a lot of time commitment, it's very easy to like dabble. And it's also easy to do while you're doing other stuff. So like, if there's a movie on that I'm not super engaged in, I can just like pick it up and work on it a little bit. And, and so I really enjoy having dabble a bowl hobbies, too. Yeah, no, I think that's another great Yeah, fun outlet for, for creativity I just did. So we have our house is like 125 years old. And like all old houses has a lot of quirks. And one of them is that they're the upstairs hallway lights, there are three different light switches that control it. And, and so if you if you do the math, there are eight different combinations of how those three switches can be flipped up or down. And of those eight combinations, only two of them result in the light being on. And so we've like always kind of, you know, gotten a kick out of walking around our house and flipping a switch and nothing changing and flipping another switch, nothing changing and flipping the third switch, and still maybe nothing changing. And so I cross stitch a little like circuit diagram in binary. So it's like when switch one is in position zero and switch two is in position zero and switch three is in position zero is the light on or off. And it's not actually likely to be used as a guide, but it's just like a cute visual representation of this cork of our house. And so yeah, so I just going to cross stitching bats and I'm gonna, like, you know, frame it and put it up in the, in the upstairs hallway. And that's I was I really liked that one because it's totally nerdy, but super personal, right, like, doesn't apply to anything else anywhere in the world, except our goofy cross wired house. And it's just a nice fun little thing to do with your hands. But I think really the most the, the hobbies, if we're like putting things on a continuum from how much time and setup cost and everything do they take from extreme to not. I also really, like cultivate, want to have some of the things that I just have to do anyway, find to find joy in those. So I've, I've always loved cooking, and given the opportunity to really enjoy making big, complicated fancy meals, or not even fancy, but just big, complicated, delicious meals. It's somewhat harder with kids, because, you know, like, I get home from work, and everybody gets home from school and daycare and whatever. And it's like, we have a fixed amount of time where everybody has to cook and eat, so that the kids aren't, you know, so the kids can go to bed at 9pm or something like that, right? And it's also the juggling of like, okay, I want to eat this thing, but like, will the like, will the kids eat that or which components of it will they eat. And that has added some additional challenges to to the joy that I find in cooking. But given the opportunity, especially if I'm like cooking dinner, you know, if we eat after the kids have gone to bed, like cooking dinner, without time demands, or you know, demands that it not be spicy or something like that, because the kids can handle spicy. And especially like playing music with a glass of wine. I love that that's like that is that is super fun for me. And so that's nice too, because it's like, well, I have to eat. So I have to do something about this. And so it's like even more cross stitch than cross stitch and the it's easy to pick it up. Because it just is something that has to happen anyway. So finding joy in it makes it even better.

Jonathan Peelle  33:45
I love that. That's a great segue into a challenge that I have. It's an obvious challenge. But something I really enjoyed doing. Julia is like analyzing data. And I'm just I'm so rusty with our because I use it like just infrequently enough that I like during the stuff that I need, and I get a script working and then it'll be three months. And then I'm like, wait a minute, how do I summarize by group again, I have to look it up. But you know, I do kind of enjoy that process. But that is something that's hard for me to do, like five minutes here and five minutes there need like a little, at least an hour, but maybe ideally a couple of hours to like, you know, pull something up and you know how it is like to make some progress. But but the the good thing, but maybe more The bad thing is that that, that that kind of so data analysis as an example, but that's something that for me, is in the realm of I frequently don't get a chance to do it at work, and I enjoy it. And so throughout the day, I'm like I wish I could do that thing. I don't have time for it. And so sometimes, right in the in the evening or on a weekend, I have an hour I'm like oh I'm gonna like pull up that data set and analyze it. And on the one hand Like, if I do that, I enjoy it. And it's great. It's like, this is the thing I enjoy get better at my data analysis skills. And that's a part of the job I enjoy. Not everyone does. But I've also just like, turned work into like a quote unquote hobby, where it feels like I'm using my free time to like, oh, to my work, right. And so I'm, like torn about that, because on the one hand, it's something I want to do, and I'm glad to have the time to do it. But it also like, then the like, robs me of the chance to like, do a different hobby that isn't related to work, right. So I'm sort of like, melding the, you know, work in personal together, which is like, could be cool, but I think I think it's kind of, you know, a little bit more dangerous in the sense that, like, you know, the work kind of takes over everything, right. Like, I think it would be, in some sense on paper healthier to have a hobby that wasn't just like, a different part of my work. But I enjoyed doing it, I don't have a chance to do it. So I struggle. I struggle with that a lot.

Julia Strand  36:03
I mean, I feel like, what matters is that you enjoy it. Right? And it's like, if doing nothing but work stuff. I mean, if doing work stuff as a hobby. Makes you like it. I mean, if you don't like it, then it's not a good hobby. Right? That it's like an obligation. But if you like it, who cares if it's related to work or not? I mean, I guess Yeah, I don't know. I think point is having fun and doing stuff you enjoy. And if you enjoy it, then

Jonathan Peelle  36:30
well, I mean, I think I think that's true. Like it's not like I feel like I'm doing something morally bad. I just think that I worry a little bit that, like, it's better to have a broader range of stuff that we'd like to do. And, and when stuff is so close to work, you know, it kind of blurs the lines, which on the one hand, it's like, Oh, aren't I lucky? My I enjoy work so much. I get to do it for a hobby. But then on the other hand is sort of like Yeah, but maybe you should, like, do something else. You're not always thinking about, you know, data and statistics. And it's like, good for your brain to like, do something different. Right. That's a well rounded. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Julia Strand  37:07
Yeah, I mean, I, I hear that. And I think, I think I think that's especially nice, kind of like not having all your eggs in one basket. In terms of, you know, I've always liked when having feeling like, I have lots of different identities. And I remember even in college when, you know, I would like get a bad grade back on a test or whatever, I'd be like, well, you know what, that's okay. Because I'm a great athlete. And I really love this and I'm doing well at this, or, you know, when I tore my rotator cuff and couldn't do crew anymore. I was like, Okay, well, you know what, but I'm, I'm a really good student. And, and like having those different identities is good, because when one thing falls apart, you still have other things. And so now, I feel like that, like with within stuff about work, right, like so about, like, my identities, as a researcher, and as a teacher. And as a open science communicator, you know, that when one of those things goes wrong, I have other things. But I also feel like Lincoln about about life, too, right? Like when I come home and just have a trash day at work, and go home, and I'm just like, well, at least I got these sweet kids to play with. And I got my model train set or you know, whatever, fill in the equivalent. And so I think in some ways, having things that are different is useful because it protects us. From right, having all your identity tied up in one thing. But also, if you like it, you like it. Yeah.

Jonathan Peelle  38:41
Right. Well, yeah, well, I guess this is a thing too. There aren't really hard, hard and fast rules. It's just, I guess, I guess I'm jealous. I am a little bit jealous of people who have like, who have found ways to incorporate other stuff in their life, people asked me what my hobbies are. And now thankfully, I did think of one, which is podcasting, which is also kind of weird. I know. But like, but I started when we started doing this a couple of years ago, Julia, or almost almost three years ago now. I did sort of think, well, this is like, I've always enjoyed audio stuff. And like the whole, I mean, you can you know, there's ways to geek out with the technical aspects of what microphone you when uses and how one processes the audio and I'm certainly not very far down that road, but I do enjoy that part of it. So that kind of counts as a hobby for me even though the content is more is more working. Some of the other stuff is a bit more hobbyist. So I've appreciated that. But before that there was a period of of several years where I really didn't have much people like what do you like to do and like well, I don't know I try to exercise sometimes and then I you know, have worked off and that's about it. And so I think you know who I've always wanted to try to broaden a little bit. So anyway, dear listeners if you're, you know able to find ways To do more than that, then I applaud you.

Julia Strand  40:04
And I think it's useful. I mean, when I've, when I've started new hobbies and tried out, like getting exploring new interests and stuff, it's been useful for me to just kind of really be aware of and take note of the kind of activities that I find enjoyable. And like the, the, like, the kinds of processes that I like. So one of the ways that I know that I work with everything is I like to have a really big picture view of things, and kind of, metaphorically speaking, sketch out the outline before I fill in the details. And so I do that, when I'm planning a class, when I'm writing a talk, when we're thinking about what we're going to talk about on a podcast, you know, like, what are the big things have the outline, then flesh out the outline, and like, that's the form of the kind of activity that I really like. And so, I tried knitting a few years ago, and really did not like it, because in knitting, you don't sketch out the whole broad outline, and then gradually, you know, fill it in little by little, and then go back and adjust and fill it in a little bit more you like laid out in one perfect line, and then another perfect line. And then another perfect line, right. And it's like, there, there is an opportunity for revision. And so that was one where I was like, This is not a hobby for me, it's just not does not fit well, with like, the way that I like to interact with projects, I really like to be able to revise. I don't cook a lot of meat, I'll eat some meat, but I don't really I don't like to prepare it. And I think part of it is I want to just taste everything as I'm going. Also I'm like not that into baking, I bake some but I'm more into cooking and baking. Because also I just want to be like, let's add a little of this and add a little list and see what happens. Whereas with meat, like once it goes in and you like keep their you know, you can't like taste it until it's all the way cooked or with baking. You just gotta like, you know, throw it in the oven and say a little prayer and good luck to you. And so, so one of the reasons I was like, Oh, I think I'm gonna like cross stitching. Because I was like, this is totally like a sketch it out, add some stuff in, add some more stuff in. And so that's the kind of thing that I feel like is a useful insight to have about finding things that you would enjoy is just, you know, knowing the kind of stuff you like, and thinking about whether potential hobbies would would work with that.

Jonathan Peelle  42:22
That's true. I did. I went through a little baking phase, you know, I kind of a little bit late to the, to the bandwagon I discovered the great British baking show. Oh, yeah, the British Bake Off. And so for, I don't know, for but often on for about a year before our twins were born. I was I was baking, I mean, not that often. But like, once a month, I would like find a recipe and try to not have it be like the simplest thing and you know, do it. And that Yes. And so that like ticked a lot of boxes for me like precise measurement, right? Like, there is a recipe if you follow it, well, probably things will will turn out. Okay. I liked that part of it. Delicious. I liked that part of it. It took a lot of boxes, and I really actually did enjoy that. Were very slow Baker. And so I don't know, if I would have done horrible on any kind of show with a time pressure because I feel like yeah, I can add all this stuff together. And I can measure but like it just takes me like three times as long as a normal, a normal Baker. So like an all evening thing of like, you want to bake this like simple cake. I'm like, okay, four hours later, like,

Julia Strand  43:29
like, okay, like, how do they do that? And an hour and a half on the Bake Off?

Jonathan Peelle  43:33
Exactly. But anyway, I did, I did enjoy that. So that that is that's also on my list of stuff to get back to. And that I feel like you can like, you know, it's not as less of a commitment. Like once you have the stuff on the house, you don't have to spend an hour a day doing it. You can sort of, you know, pop in and out as as suits, which I like.

Julia Strand  43:50
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also mean, I don't know how we're defining hobby. But one of the things I really love to do in the time that I have to myself, is being outside and especially like being outside in the woods. So hiking, camping, canoeing, those kinds of things. And in 4000 weeks, he talks about hiking as a hobby. And one of the things that is nice about it in terms of like mindfulness, and you know, doing things you really enjoy, is that it's an activity that, I don't know, unlike most things that I do. I don't do it to like to be really good at it. Right. And I like I know, it's good for me, but I don't get out there with the intention of being like, I will do this to improve my cardiovascular health. You know, it's a kind of thing where it's like, no, I want to go for a hike just because I enjoy it. And I like hearing the leaves rustle and breathing the fresh air and you know, that it's that it's just for pleasure. And so it's not instrumental in that there isn't like any outcome other than just the presence and mindfulness of it. And, and I'm also eager to continue to cultivate those kinds of outdoorsy hobbies, especially now that my kids are big enough that we can take them camping. And you know, they can sit in a canoe without tipping it over and things like that. Because that's also, you know, we've talked so much about, like, how busy our lives are, and how fast paced things are, and how many demands that we have. And every time I'm out in the woods for a long period of time, I'm just reminded that I actually need so little to be happy, right? Like, I'm just not hungry, and I'm dry. And I don't have blisters. Like that's really, you know, finding, finding the joy in those kinds of things, I think is a really good antidote to the pace of, of life. A lot of the other time.

Jonathan Peelle  45:46
Yeah, that's a good one I do. I've always enjoyed being out outside in nature. And that, yeah, I probably wouldn't have put it in the hobby category directly. But I think as like, but But I totally think it fits. It's like an activity that's different than your normal day to day life. And, and brings joy and stuff like that. And I do think it's so good for especially if one is I usually have my phone with me when we go on hikes these days, but I really just use it for pictures, you know. And so nice just to be like a little bit disconnected from, you know, from other stuff. And just to enjoy. It is like it's like not forced mindfulness, but it sort of promotes just being in the moment for me, which I think is great. Yeah, yep. Yeah, I feel like with the, especially with a pandemic, like our twins, you know, they're two and a half now. But most of their, you know, two and a half years had been like, during pandemic times. And so there's a lot of, like, activities that we did with our older daughter that we didn't do like, your music classes, or even like daycare stuff, like they've mostly been at home. But because we can't go to other, we've been avoiding other indoor activities, like, they just do tons of outdoor stuff, like whether it's just going around the neighborhood or going, we just go to parks all the time, you know, and so it was actually really cool to see like, how quickly they adapted to, like, we have not done backpacking with them. But just like day hikes, you know, just powering a car, go somewhere for a morning, and now they're just like, super into it, which is great. Like, I feel like, we would have wanted to instill that. And then we sort of like stumbled into this perfect way of, you know, training them.

Julia Strand  47:27
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's great.

Jonathan Peelle  47:30
Julia, have you have you felt that the, like, I don't know, the time that's been available, or that you've been able to spend on Hobbies stuff has changed, like over the last, you know, over the course of your career, like since graduate school to now? And and if so, has that been, like systematic or just kind of random, you know, with a kid? Or was it like career stage? Or is like, what, what you're teaching or the time of the year? Or like, I don't know, what's what, what are the what are the seasons? You've noticed in this?

Julia Strand  48:00
What a thoughtful question, why would you like to host a podcast with me where we ask each other? Yeah, so there have been some big systematic things like kids just made, there be less time available for less kids made there be less unscheduled time available. And so like book, carving definitely took a hit when the kids were small, because there's just fewer hours in the day that you're free to do whatever you want. Pandemic also, you know, like unreliable childcare, which has been such such a struggle. So those have been like the kind of big, big impediments to hobbies. But also, then I feel like coming like, after, like after parental leave, going back to work, one of the things about having small children, and having less time available, at least for me, made me work much more efficiently. I definitely, like get more. And maybe that's also just career stage and whatever. But if it takes me much less time to do things than it used to, which then kind of frees up more time. Also having like prep classes, if I'm like, Oh, I have to lecture about something tomorrow. And it's in the evening, and I put the kids to bed, I'd like look at my calendar. I mean, you know, look at look at what I did last year, update it as need be. And that only takes an hour instead of the first time I made that lecture, taking eight hours or whatever. So there could have been some things that have made there be less time recently, some things that have made there feel like more time. And then one of the other kind of shifts for me lately, is just trying to very deliberately make more time to do things that I enjoy. Which is to say not saying, I will work until I've gotten all the work done that I want and then whatever time is left, I will fill with fun, but kind of deliberately saying like, no, it is important for me as a human to have fun and do things that I enjoy. And you know what a lot of that too is just spending time with my friends and family. All right, so I wouldn't quite call that a hobby, but it's really important to me to have time to just hang out with my friends and, you know, go out and have drinks and have dinner parties and sit by the pool and, like, have fun with friends. And, and I fully recognize that, especially given the nature of our work, I will never get to a point where I'm gonna say, now everything that I have to do is done. And so now that I have, you know, eaten all of my good growing food, I will have dessert now. Like that's, that's never ever going to happen. And so I think the biggest shift has been saying, I'm gonna set this time aside to do fun stuff. Because this is my one precious life. And I don't want to just work work my way through all of it. Even though I feel like I'm very lucky that I do love my job. And I really actually enjoy most of the things that I do day to day. You know, but but, but I think setting aside that time, has become more of a priority for me, as I've gotten older. And also finding things that like, like realizing things about myself, like I would say, exercise is kind of a hobby, like I love working out. And I love how I feel after I have. And that's one where I used to say, Oh, I'm pretty busy. I guess I don't have time to workout. And I'm just like, No, I'm just I'm doing this because I know it's good for my body and my mind, and all of that. So yeah, I think the biggest shift has been reprioritizing and making, ensuring that I make time for those things, because I know it won't ever. It won't ever do you have whatever just happened to find the time. Right?

Jonathan Peelle  51:26
Well, I would also say like, I mean, things do change. But most people I don't think find that they magically get like, lots and lots of free time as they get older. There tend to be more work and family responsibilities of one sort or another. So just just just just as like an encouragement if you know for for people who are, you know, early on in their career, like this is a great time to try to be intentional about everything intentional about this stuff, because it probably won't get easier. And you might as well develop a habit now saying this is someone who did not do that. But you know, I'm still still working on it. But anyway, I think yeah, anyway, never it's never too early to start.

Julia Strand  52:09
Yes, yeah. Amen. All right.

Jonathan Peelle  52:13
Well, on that note, Julia, should we should we leave a challenge for each other or for listeners of this week?

Julia Strand  52:18
Listeners, I would love to hear about your hobbies and how you incorporate them into your otherwise I'm sure busy lives. Jonathan, I don't want to give us give each other a let's find a new new hobby. Well, before next time,

Jonathan Peelle  52:33
how about we find before and also because we've been a little bit you know, on a relaxed recording schedule, we have more than two weeks probably so how about we each report back on on on a thing that we did for you know, for hobby ish? Reasons. Great. Doesn't have to be a new hobby. We just like hey, what's with the thing you did? That fits in that category?

Julia Strand  52:55
Yeah. Oh, another thing, dear listeners, um, I have been really enjoying reading lately and find myself just plowing through fiction and with love your recommendations for excellent fiction that is not about families being mean to each other. And bonus points if it involves adventures. Okay.

Jonathan Peelle  53:18
Okay. And I actually I've been horrible about reading but I in theory like it and I tend towards nonfiction. So any, I think any any book recommendations we will share next time.

Julia Strand  53:30
How about that? Awesome. That sounds great. All right. All right. Thanks for listening. Talk to you next time. 

Jonathan Peelle  53:35
All right. Bye, everybody!