02:09.80 fireheartmedia I'm your host Dave and today I am joined by Cameron Jala is back. Hi. 02:18.12 Cameron Hello. 02:29.42 fireheartmedia And we have with us Adam yeah, so we're changing up the the host rotation Leonard is out today. He has a work function. So Adam is here. 02:31.47 Adam Hello. 02:49.11 fireheartmedia he will be joining us as a rotating guest host for the foreseeable future Adam Tell the folks about yourself a little bit. What what do you do. 03:00.64 Adam Yeah, hello my name is Adam Bucceri I am an animator and game designer I love horror media and I'm excited to be here. 03:12.30 fireheartmedia So what kind of games do you design? 03:20.17 Adam I am a primarily a tabletop game designer. Um I have a board game that I finished which is incidentally inspired by the card games of final fantasy None I think it's cool. Um, and then my I've designed several. Tabletop rpgs at this point but my flagship one is called enter the survival horror which is of course a tabletop Rpg inspired by the classic resident evil games with a focus on the resource drain in dark hallways and fighting scary monsters. 03:55.49 fireheartmedia All right I think that sounds up pretty much everybody's alley so we will have links to those in the show notes. But today we are here to revisit until dawn and now the 2022 supermassive games. 04:01.13 Cameron Newton. 04:14.94 fireheartmedia Corey and we've looked at until done it. It's been a few years twenty seventeen I think it was one of the earlier episodes where we also took a look at a window to go so we'll we'll be checking back in on that because the. Corey. It's a new or I guess it's ah it's an iteration on what until Don was doing and I think that contrasting those 2 will make an interesting show so we pulled that together. So none we will take a look at until dawn and I will kind of turn the floor over to Adam and Cameron just to kind of give a of a brief overview on what until dawn is in case, you didn't listen to that episode. So ah. 05:06.16 Cameron Um, yes. 05:10.18 fireheartmedia Cameron. Ah, you've played did you play it just the once. 05:13.48 Cameron It Ah yeah I played it just the wants. Although I think I've watched it like None or None times with different people playing it so I'm I'm fairly familiar with until dawn. Ah, ah man. Um yeah, ah so the general overview is until dawn is a slash a horror movie but a video game essentially and you follow the the typical sort of b horror group of teens young adults. As they try to survive until dawn da da da ah ah and it's it's actually a a very interesting game primarily because it recognizes that it's a relatively narrative focuseded experience. And so actually switches things up throughout the you know it does the tip of it's got a little prologue where a couple of characters are killed off and then transpositions into the main story and all that. Ah, but throughout the none half or so of the game. The primary threat. Is this again very classic slasher villain guy in a clown mask doing doing sore style traps and things like that and then partway through the game. It switches up and says actually that was all a prank There's a real monster. That's been running around this entire game and that's the actual primary threat. Ah which is in this case, the wendigo the native american ah spirit the predator parasite of cannibalism. Yeah. That has apparently been haunting the mountain. The game is set on now that's sort of the general overview. 07:06.39 Adam Yeah, something that I think is interesting in the the structure of the game is that ah to to reference what you were saying about like there's kind of two horror movies playing out simultaneously where there's this kind of like saw ask. 07:06.78 fireheartmedia Okay, Adam yeah. 07:12.25 Cameron M. 07:20.71 Cameron Um. 07:26.28 Adam Prank gone wrong ah like serial Killer Plot That's also happening simultaneously with the when to go subplot and they both act as red herrings to each other. 07:28.35 Cameron Yeah, yeah, yeah. 07:37.26 Cameron M. 07:39.29 Adam And the way that they kind of weave in and out and faint off of each other um is a big part of the appeal of the game to me. 07:42.98 Cameron Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's It's really fun looking back and going on this was that and that was this etc etc. Yeah. 07:53.79 fireheartmedia Yeah, so Adam ah, this game kind of has a few it's pulling in like qtes and some other video game trope things forward. Ah and the I believe it's the the totems that you have to kind of pick up. 08:10.89 Adam E. 08:12.59 fireheartmedia So of those little systems do those are those additive. What are those doing within the game for the player. 08:19.80 Adam Yeah, so for the play I don't know if we explicitly say did this but this is definitely in like ah the David cage mold of the interactive movie where largely you're you're either piloting a character around and exploring a space with some basic interactions or. 08:24.11 Cameron Un. Yes, yeah. 08:39.18 Adam You're an inaction scene of some kind and there are qtes that you have to react to um in order to survive and I would argue that this is probably the most successful of the the David Cage movie film game genre. Um. 08:52.94 Cameron M. 08:57.30 fireheartmedia Probably because it's not a evi change game before keep him out of it works. Yeah. 08:58.95 Adam I Think the qtes are yeah you know that classic genre. It's going to catch on. Um, but the qtes I think largely are successful. Um I think that they do a better job of. 09:01.11 Cameron And. 09:18.94 Adam Mimicking what you're doing on screen so you know there's kind of the classic like press square in order to do something and those aren't terribly interesting. Um, but the 2 that I think that are unique to this game that like left an impression to me are. 09:20.37 Cameron What. 09:36.99 Adam You'll have a gun and then something will jump out at you and you have to shoot it in time and so you have to drag your cursor to a precise location and pull the trigger before a timer runs out and I I found that to be like a pretty successful stressful activity to do ah and then the other one which I did think was excellent. 09:41.79 Cameron Mm. 09:51.60 Cameron Yeah. 09:56.86 Adam Um, was the the game came out for the playstation 4 and as a result, um, it's using the the dual shock 4 controller which has motion sensors and so one of the qtes is don't move and you have to hold your hands very still and they're they're actually. 09:59.57 Cameron Um. 10:09.58 Cameron Yeah, it's so stable. Um. 10:16.78 Adam Quite challenging like you have to be very still while doing it I think that does a really good job of emulating holding your breath while something scary is just around the corner. Um, so I think this is definitely above average as far as like Qte gameplay ah type stuff. 10:32.25 Cameron Martin. 10:36.64 Adam Um, you also mentioned the totems which act as like little ah previews of things that are going to happen and they come in various flavors depending on like how dangerous the premonition is going to be I did not like these very much both because I felt like. They weren't terribly good hints. It's not like they were designed to allow you to avoid danger particularly but also it was frequently a reward for exploration and I did not find that terribly satisfying as a as an incentive. 11:11.61 Cameron Yeah. 11:15.95 fireheartmedia So that sounds like though if you played until dawn on computer. You would totally miss that extra bit from the PS 4 where you've got the you know, dual shock situation going on because of course you know you're maybe not even using a controller if you're playing on. 11:35.57 Cameron And. 11:35.73 fireheartmedia Um, you know the mouse and Keyboard on computer. So. 11:39.30 Adam Yeah I don't know if you would be able to adapt like that feeling to a controller or mouse and keyboard that didn't have motion sensors and I actually did like double check to make sure it hadn't gotten a Pc port because. 11:50.20 fireheartmedia Um, I Wonder if that's why yeah I was going to say it. Yeah was yeah I was going to say like um, they couldn't emulate that on Pc Probably so that's why they. 11:50.33 Cameron Yeah. 11:57.43 Adam That was something I would be interested in in how they adapted it. 12:08.84 fireheartmedia Maybe that maybe that's why they never did a pc port of that particular one? Yeah I think company was trying to do PS 4 exclusives and along with few others where the later games done by that production company. 12:13.90 Adam Yeah, possibly. 12:19.51 Cameron Yes. 12:28.12 fireheartmedia Weren weren't I don't think all of them were exclusive Anyway, the um, the dark Anthology series Dark picture dark pictures anthology. Yep, Ah yeah, and so the game also ah I will I will back myself up slightly? Um, this is one that I attempted to play. 12:31.95 Cameron And. 12:44.83 Cameron And. 12:46.22 fireheartmedia Um, and that was one of the issues I think when we were doing the None episode was I I didn't get the chance to play through the whole game I played probably about an hour and I just wasn't jiving with the control scheme I think um so I did watch a few let's plays and that. 12:58.89 Cameron And. 13:04.53 fireheartmedia Ah, because of the the nature of these games where you have multiple endings and many kind of fail states. The characters can die off. Um, and you can have all of them die or none of them. There's there's iterations of that and so those do. These games make it a little easier as you go through each time to make it a little quicker. But yeah, just just watching these as a movie or you know, kind of someone else playing it. Um I don't think there's anything they lost with that just by how they play. 13:31.44 Cameron And. 13:40.53 fireheartmedia And didn't feel like oh now I'm just missing out on making that these guys walk around in circles looking for totems. Um, but what what I did like in watching it were these segments with Peter Storemare and he kind of just. 13:47.82 Cameron Yeah, so. 13:56.32 Cameron I. 14:00.46 fireheartmedia Pops in and gives sort of an unreliable narrator vibe to the whole to the game like you don't know as much of what's going on and you're also unsure of you as the player who who are you like. 14:07.10 Cameron And. 14:15.98 Cameron Yeah, yeah. 14:18.25 fireheartmedia Whose eyes are you looking through until you kind of get later in the game I did not play this one at all. Um I was because first off I don't have a PS four so I didn't have access to it so that would be a good reason. Why I did attempt to watch. 14:21.23 Adam E. 14:27.40 Cameron I. 14:37.62 fireheartmedia Poll from Duckfe Tv try to go through on hex crak the live stream that Cole does every week and I could not stand it I felt really like sick and upset and I just had to nope out of there. And it took me a long time to figure out what the problem was but with the slasher movie. They always have the slasher stereotype characters. You know the archetypical characters of the the dumb teenagers or whatever getting. Killed by you know whatever the killer is at that particular time and a lot of time. Those characters are intentionally unlikeable but they are also like usually. 15:22.86 Cameron I. 15:27.86 fireheartmedia Bad people I mean at least they they come off as being very bad people in the very beginning you want to see them Die. That's kind of the point and so when I was going through this. It was for me more like okay these are all super stereotypical. Um. Not all of them are white but a lot of them are like white frat boy kite kind of people sorority type people and like that's danger zone for a small person of color who you know small female person of color and so like the actual horror for me I found out much later when I took a look at it and was talking to. 15:48.93 Cameron And. 16:05.99 fireheartmedia Dave and kind of discussing like my feelings and how I was upset about it and when I was talking to him that's when I realized that the the horror for me is not the stuff that's going on on the screen and any of that and I'm not turned off from the characters just being unlikable. It's actually the fact that I am actively forced to participate in a narrative and make decisions and you know like your decisions are not usually as flexible as something like a telltale game where you have capacity to say no and take a different path. They have you on rails. 16:36.63 Cameron And. 16:43.39 fireheartmedia This is you know there's only just so many ways that this story will play out and so you go along with it or you go along with it grudgingly. But you still go along with it. You know what I'm saying and that is what makes me uncomfortable but I wasn't the 1 playing it. 16:54.61 Adam In. 17:01.90 fireheartmedia It still occurred that I still felt uncomfortable watching Cole play it and I think it's because you know I'm watching him play it but someone is presented with that decision and I'm watching it so I'm obviously like becoming immersed in what's going on. If it were a movie like a slasher movie I wouldn't have that feeling so so it was this weird thing when I finally realized that because it took me years because I was like okay I watched Cole play through um house of ashes. The dark pictures anthology title. 17:20.37 Cameron Yeah. 17:31.58 Cameron And. 17:35.61 fireheartmedia And I had no problem watching that one but that's because that one was military assholes and I don't have as much of a frame of reference for that and that's yes, that's a danger zone for people. But that's not um, necessarily like something that I personally have had to you know. 17:42.14 Cameron So. 17:54.28 Cameron Yeah. 17:54.33 fireheartmedia Confronted my actual life. So yeah, yeah. 17:57.21 Adam And to add to what you were saying. Um I can't speak for the quarry but until Don features a a truly loathsome group of teens who especially if you are um, you know, just starting and getting your None impression. 18:03.34 Cameron Button Ah man. 18:14.26 Cameron M. 18:15.83 Adam It opens with just a sequence that is like incredibly cruel and mean spirited like really rough None impression of these of these teens. 18:21.40 Cameron So. 18:27.62 fireheartmedia Yeah, and ah quarry it started with the characters being pretty unlikable but I still feel that they are way more likable than the until dawn cast and as the game goes on and I have been told that this also happens in until dawn as the game. 18:38.68 Cameron So. 18:47.44 fireheartmedia Progresses you end up learning stuff about the characters that kind of redeems them a little bit and makes them more tolerable as you learn tidbits about them as you go through the game at least with the quarry that is true. Um I don't know about until dawn because I could not hang out ah long enough to see that. 18:55.81 Cameron Yeah. 19:05.74 fireheartmedia I'm actually curious because when I played started playing the Quarry I started having those same feelings and I had to consciously remind myself. Okay, we know what's going on here you know and and kind of separate put like a layer of separation even though the game is about immersion and. 19:09.35 Cameron And. 19:18.13 Cameron Yeah, yeah. 19:23.35 fireheartmedia Once I put that separation in there then I was able to play it and it was fine and you know, especially as the game went on it got easier to play but right at None I was having that same issue. So I'm kind of curious now that I finished and put in all the time to play the quarry actually a couple of times through. 19:33.14 Cameron So. 19:42.59 fireheartmedia I'm curious to see what would happen if I went back to until dawn and tried to play it now but we'll have to see sometime. 19:48.30 Cameron Yeah, yeah, yeah I mean I would say it's worth attempting Again. At least you know don't push yourself obviously. But. I agree with the with the the statement that you know as the game progresses in until Dawn. You definitely get to know the characters a lot better and get to like them a lot more. Ah, there's there's still a few that are just kind of standout assholes that I really didn't gel with even by the end of the game. Ah, but. 20:12.15 Adam A. 20:18.80 Cameron Yeah I mean part part of it is ah finding out you know their actual already their character their backstory a little bit but then a lot of it is also seeing how they deal with the events and seeing them in many cases rise to the occasion does make them a lot more. You know. Likekable than they are at the start which as Adam said is like wow just start the game. You're like I don't like any of these people except like 1 or 2 of them make like Sam is good. Sam is good and until dawn I don't know about anyone else. 20:48.16 Adam Yeah I mean um, you know the character of Mike who is like starts out as the jock archetype he's um, actionably Nolan North like there's just an uncharted about but um. 20:56.83 Cameron Um, yes, yeah. 21:06.89 Adam But he he starts out ah being complicit in like the the really awful quote unquote prank at the the beginning of the game and you know definitely doesn't come off great as a None impression but he rises into to the occasion in a way that. 21:11.66 Cameron M. 21:23.58 Cameron Um, yeah, okay. 21:24.20 Adam Is admirable and charismatic. At least if if not outright good. So like yeah I would say that like there's like 2 of the teens who are like truly wretched and and the rest are varying degrees of like ah you know, um. 21:34.51 Cameron M. Ah, man. Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to put it. 21:42.75 Adam Okay, there there there's one character who um, you know is definitely coded as the bitch archetype. Um, who is one of the worst expressions of that. 21:53.64 Cameron M. 22:00.30 Adam Type of character that I've seen in media and and my greatest regret of the first playthrough is not shooting her in the face when I had the chance really kicked myself for that. 22:00.81 Cameron Yeah, ah yeah, ah yeah. 22:09.82 fireheartmedia Um, this is. 22:20.70 Cameron Ah, yeah, truly awful teens is going to put it and yeah and I would say the quarry definitely eases up a little bit on that like there's no singular introductory moment like that where you go okay like. Almost everyone is on board with whatever's going on here and they are the literal worst. Ah, you know it takes its time it takes it slow to introduce you but in that sort of that opening couple of hours those none few chapters you get that distinct like. 22:41.49 Adam 8 22:53.17 Cameron You know they they think everything's perfectly normal so they're behaving perfectly normally for themselves which is they're a bunch of self-absorbed teenagers ah cruel or otherwise depending on each of their personalities but they also sort of again grow throughout the game. 23:00.96 fireheartmedia Um. 23:12.78 Cameron A couple of them again really rising to the occasion a couple of them just sort of there for the right. 23:18.12 fireheartmedia And the thing that I have to say about the quarry's cast. So um, one of the characters that I absolutely could not stand right at None Dylan ends up becoming once you learn more about his character and his backstory and motivations and stuff like. 23:27.90 Cameron M. 23:35.24 Cameron So yeah. 23:37.78 fireheartmedia Actually you know he's just a science nerd who's trying to put up this this front of being you know this this goofy airhead you know, kind of character and like you can have him have a whole subplot of romance with Ryan and. 23:49.95 Cameron So yeah, okay. 23:52.73 fireheartmedia That actually the 2 of them have such great charisma and you know like they're just cute on the screen together because they're both so awkward. Um that it's very charming actually and those end up becoming very very cute together but like the game. I don't know if this is the case with until dawn but the the quarry it felt like there was definitely a point where I expected certain characters to get more time on screen and then they just never did like ah Kaitlyn for example, does not have very much to do and is often. 24:20.67 Cameron It? Yes yes. I no. 24:28.69 fireheartmedia Passing the buck to Ryan for some reason and it's like but you're the best with the gun. Why are you handing but everybody else the gun. Why like this doesn't make any sense you know like they they start her out. They develop her. They take the time to have her. Um, you know take charge once the gun comes into play. 24:36.84 Cameron So. 24:47.54 fireheartmedia And then she just passes the buck and then is in the background and it's like I don't get it what what is this? you know? So um I don't know it's probably something having to do with the fact that they have 9 camp counselors to juggle. 24:48.88 Cameron I. 25:01.80 Cameron So yeah. 25:03.82 fireheartmedia And they have to try to so figure out what they're going to do with the story but in certain instances it just felt like well you know you made this really strong Asian female character who then just is not active at all. Okay, well. 25:16.74 Cameron I Yeah yeah. 25:17.85 Adam Yeah. 25:20.55 fireheartmedia You know and then like the center stage people. Oh yeah, that's right, Ah, the blonde white lady is like center stage. Okay, you know they could have done better with that. You know like and granted they did give Ryan a lot to do for a large chunk of the game. 25:25.68 Cameron And. 25:38.38 fireheartmedia And he is a black kid so you know at least there's that but you know anyway and. 25:41.21 Cameron And. 25:41.81 Adam Yeah I would agree that it until dawn probably has ah too large a cast as well. Um, you know a bit of screenwriting advice that ah has stuck with me is take 2 characters. 25:50.40 Cameron Yeah. 25:58.76 Adam And just combine them into 1 more interesting character and I think if they just like you know, did that once or twice that the the game would have been stronger for it. 26:00.32 Cameron M. 26:00.43 fireheartmedia Um. 26:06.72 fireheartmedia Um, yeah. 26:06.84 Cameron Yeah, yeah, absolutely like it is just kind of a scope thing was it until dawn has 6 or 7 playable characters I believe and think it's 7 and it juggles around a bit there are there are a couple of characters that. 26:17.21 Adam I think it's 7 26:25.48 Cameron Sort of are there at the start and then show up right at the end depending on how things go and otherwise don't really appear but it's a little more cohesive but then you get and you get into the quarry and like Jala said there's 9 playable camp counselors that each have at least a small section of gameplay. 26:43.46 Adam Evening. 26:45.14 Cameron Plus there's probably 7 or 8 other major characters walking around in the story as well and it is it does feel like a few characters really got left by the wayside with the the juggling act there and for. 26:58.32 fireheartmedia Yeah, you well and I think they really like they wanted to make the game have ah because what they ended up doing is they ended up saying that they were going to add online co-op in the month of July it is now the. 26:59.43 Adam Yeah. 27:13.58 Cameron And. 27:16.20 fireheartmedia End of July I do not know if they added it because I have not actually looked to see if they updated that but they were adding online co-op for like up to 7 people I think something like that where you can just like vote on what to do and like if you're doing couch co-op you can pass the. 27:26.32 Cameron Oh wow, Yeah I. 27:34.77 fireheartmedia Ah, controller back and forth between people and each take different characters and they were trying to make a larger playable cast or continue to make a larger playable cast in order to provide parts more or less for everybody to set around and play this movie together. 27:48.78 Cameron And. 27:51.23 fireheartmedia And that's an experience that Dave and I did have we did play this game um with a couple of friends and then we also played it one on one and you know sitting here co-opting the thing together. So and that is fun that is fun because you know you're in a group and you are making these decisions together if you will. 27:56.98 Cameron And. 28:09.68 fireheartmedia But at the same time. It's like ah definitely some bloat going on on screen. It's like it's hard because they can't really make the game much longer without getting into the problem of well what if that character died all the way back there. You know like they they can't extend the game out. 28:24.28 Adam A. 28:24.72 Cameron Yeah, yeah. 28:28.45 fireheartmedia Longer with the layout that they've got and you know that's also probably part of the reason why there is that bloat too because they want the ability to kill off some characters and still tell a story and they have to have enough of a cast to still do that like if you've got. 28:31.31 Cameron And. 28:41.36 Cameron And. 28:46.34 Adam That's actually a very good point. Yeah. 28:47.77 fireheartmedia If you have 4 characters. You can't kill them off so you know that they're going to live at least this many hours until somebody starts to die. So then that means that it's not really slasher flicky you know like they're trying to make sure that they can kill people off and still have enough key players to go on. 28:58.22 Cameron Yeah. Yeah, that that is the tricky part of I guess because you know like ah, a typical slasher film is 90 maybe maybe a hundred minutes and ah the quarant until dawn both gone go on for you know None to 10 hours 29:15.20 Adam E. 29:15.13 fireheartmedia Um. 29:20.76 fireheartmedia Um. 29:23.27 Cameron And yeah, you you need you need bodies I guess is the answer I mean I feel like with with the correct antagonistic force with the with the correct sort of plot going on, you could maybe play around with like a 4 or 5 person cast like I think. 29:26.21 Adam Yeah. 29:39.86 Cameron With with the quarry, especially it would have been interesting where certain characters get pulled out of the story. They don't necessarily die but there could still potentially be playable sequences with them whereas in the actual game. It ended up being you know this person gets infected and then they're out. Until the end credits usually kind of thing like they there could be a way to sort of work around that but it would be a lot more work than just saying. Okay, we got None or 4 extraneous people because we expect 3 or 4 characters to die over the standard playthrough. 29:57.79 fireheartmedia Um. 29:59.65 Adam E. 30:13.91 fireheartmedia Um. 30:15.46 Cameron We still want to have a few people at the end and. 30:16.45 Adam Yeah, could I Also just interject real quick that I think that if you're playing one of these style of games and you're just like I'm going to look up a guide so I can get the golden ending. Ah you are not playing in the spirit of the the medium like. 30:26.91 Cameron Um, no, ah yeah yeah. 30:31.90 fireheartmedia No. 30:35.34 Adam To yeah to let let some teens die. It's fine. 30:40.21 Cameron My quarry experience was exactly that because I completely misunderstood the quicktime mechanic and so I got it right? about 50% of the time for the entire playthrough. Um, yeah. 30:46.89 fireheartmedia Well I will yeah for for the quarry for me I Definitely okay so there's only like a couple of shooting segments and I did not remember what the but because the button for everything else is like X and then. 30:46.90 Adam Um, ah. 31:01.99 Cameron Yeah, yeah. 31:05.13 fireheartmedia You actually have to use the right trigger to use the gun and ah there was a part where a character kicked it because I was pushing the X button I aimed and I was pushing the X button. Everybody's like what are you doing and shoot and I'm like I'm pushing the button and we like that's not the button and I'm like why isn't it button every you think. 31:06.71 Cameron I. 31:18.49 Cameron I. 31:19.65 Adam And. 31:23.61 fireheartmedia Is this button. Why is suddenly it's a different button that doesn't make any sense I learned how to use this gun 3 hours ago I haven't used it since I didn't remember you know so. 31:24.77 Cameron Yeah, yeah, yeah, so. 31:25.97 Adam That ah. 31:32.61 Adam That that's like the mechanical version. Ah like like a mechanical expression of you left the safety on. 31:40.24 Cameron Yeah, yeah, well yeah, that was me with the qtes because in the prologue they they have that little thing where like a phone falls down and you go to grab it and the way it works is the prompt shows up and then. 31:40.43 fireheartmedia Um, yeah. 31:56.50 Cameron Ah, split second before you would fail it. It shows a directional arrow for where you're meant to push the button I never saw that directional prompt my entire playthrough because I would always freak out and push the direction I thought it wanted me to push like I'm I'm gonna be out of time. 31:58.68 fireheartmedia Um, ah. 32:00.28 Adam E. 32:07.83 fireheartmedia Oh my? ah. 32:08.69 Adam Um, now. 32:12.37 Cameron And so I I played the entire game as everyone being like panicky on edge immediately doing what they thought was best and they got like 3 people killed. 32:16.51 fireheartmedia Ah, well. 32:18.26 Adam So so so are you saying that you like you failed the prompt before it even appeared on the screen because you were. 32:25.30 Cameron Like the the prompt would appear and but the way it starts is it starts as a circle and then as you get closer to failing the directional arrow begins to appear on the circle. So you're meant to see that something's happening and wait until that last moment to push it. 32:35.19 fireheartmedia Um, yeah. 32:35.36 Adam Ah. 32:40.40 fireheartmedia And well that was that was me too on a few of the qtes right? at None I kept un flubbing them because I'm like. 32:41.64 Cameron But my brain goes Oh God push the button I. 32:50.96 fireheartmedia You know like I know I'm supposed to be push be pushing the thing and then like I'd push it but it wouldn't be at exactly the right time because you have like the timing of it is real weird on on the quarry for sure. Oh. 32:55.11 Cameron So. And yeah I found that added to my experience because I think if I'd known how to actually do them I don't know if anyone would have died and I feel like that would have would have made it a little less of the the real slasher experience I ended up getting there. 33:08.36 fireheartmedia Um, is. 33:14.51 fireheartmedia Is yeah and I think something mechanically that those do is in in the quarry in particular when you're doing the qtes you don't you get a few early chances to where it's not a fail state like it. 33:17.84 Cameron Ah, man and. 33:32.38 Cameron And yeah. 33:33.49 Adam Things. 33:34.48 fireheartmedia You flub it and the characters kind of flubs What they're doing but it as the game ramps up, You don't realize that flubbing. It is like a yes, no state and they just they lived if you made it or they died if you didn't and it's. 33:47.30 Cameron I yeah. 33:52.00 fireheartmedia Punishing you a little bit because that wasn't the case like the whole rest of the mini hours. You've been playing the game I Sometimes they'll juggle something that you'll get three E prompts and like oh on that third one you know whoops. Yeah, you can tell. But um, so. 33:55.95 Cameron Yeah, yeah, yeah. 33:58.40 Adam Oh. 34:04.31 Cameron And. 34:06.51 Adam Um, there I 1 of my favorite ah action sequences from and until dawn is early on you're playing as Mike Ah the Nolan North and he's running through the woods. 34:09.59 fireheartmedia Go ahead. 34:13.71 Cameron Um. 34:23.27 Adam Like ah trying to catch up with someone who's been kidnapped and you can fail all of the quicktime events and it's spectacularly funny to watch him just like fall off of logs and like dunk himself into rivers. 34:31.41 Cameron Um I. 34:41.69 Adam And slide down like snowbank's head None and just like really wreck himself. It's it's very funny to to watch that. 34:44.80 fireheartmedia This is. 34:45.54 Cameron Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and that that is so within genre for this like you said early on David Cage style game because I think my None introduction to heavy rain was a Youtube video of an Fbi agent just hitting. 34:55.92 Adam A. 35:03.23 Cameron Every vegetable in a supermarket slamming into boxes hitting a door on his way out and just failing to catch someone and that that for me is sort of the epitome of this like if the sequence is well written and well animated out enough that you can fail every prompt and the story still progresses and it's. 35:09.90 Adam Yes. 35:22.97 Cameron Absolutely hilarious I Think that is the perfect encapsulation of what this kind of game is about. 35:27.19 fireheartmedia Just it would just be like the um there was a Martin short film where he's accident prone and and he's bumbling. But it's injuring everyone around him and he never never gets hurt. 35:27.75 Adam Yeah. 35:35.13 Cameron I. 35:45.39 Cameron Ah, so. 35:47.14 fireheartmedia So it just reminds me of that or or just the the like the live action pink panthers that reminds me slight slight tangent. Yeah slight slight tangent that cameron and Adam might appreciate is that. 35:51.13 Cameron I Oh yeah, very live action ping panther. 35:51.42 Adam Yeah I was I was I was going to reference cluso. 36:03.90 fireheartmedia That what you're talking about with that Martin short film and the situation there that is a I don't know what they called it in Deadlands but Deadlands had a thing where you could be jinxt and so I created a character for that game which is a wild west undead. 36:04.83 Cameron So. 36:14.85 Cameron I ah. 36:21.92 Cameron Yeah, so. 36:23.75 fireheartmedia Horror tabletop game and I played a character that was an inventor that had a flamethrower and she was jinxt and so she would just like um, blow crap up next to her or you know Torch her friend or whatever when she was trying to it and she was also terrified of everything um like did. 36:33.82 Cameron Um, yeah. 36:42.55 fireheartmedia Was terrified of the undead so it was very fun to play this character that was just like more or less. You could just imagine it to be like ah anime character hijinks on the screen all the time whenever I was playing her. So. 36:50.70 Cameron Yeah, oh that sounds real fun. Yeah imlock is always great. 36:54.66 Adam Yeah, that sounds very fun. 36:58.54 fireheartmedia Yeah, so yeah, with um, until dawn we have kids trapped in a cabin up in Canada as the base premise they're like in a ski lodge where they get they get invited to a ski lodge. 37:09.20 Cameron And. 37:17.29 fireheartmedia Via an old friend and that just kind of goes from weird slasher to okay, no, there's actually something spooky up here in addition to an unhinged slighted friend who's in in in Perro Revenge Revenge saw games going on what. 37:22.88 Cameron I. I yeah. 37:27.86 Adam E. 37:35.48 fireheartmedia Um, we missed it. What's the premise jalla of the quarry. It's Friday the thirteenth and we are at a summer camp and there are camp counselors except this time there's werewolves and it's it's all yeah, it's werewolves. 37:45.70 Cameron Yeah I was so glad it was werewolves. 37:53.85 fireheartmedia Um, there is a gypsy caravan ah that is involved and you know like a traveling circus type thing. Um, and also you're channeling some resson evil None vibes because there is just this backwater um country family that. Hackets that live on this property and run the camp hackets quarry and it used to be an actual quarry where you know there was mining going on and that since dried up so they turned it into a summer camp on the property and there's a big old house with some very ah. 38:14.10 Cameron And. 38:31.92 Cameron And. 38:32.22 fireheartmedia Country-sounding folks live in there. Um, and yeah, like the the game kicks off with a couple of the counselors heading to the camp early. They are trying to get there ahead of schedule. 38:33.10 Adam A. 38:47.78 fireheartmedia Just to get settled in and everything and they come across a creepy cop that is telling them not to go there and to go to the motel and they're like we're not going to listen to this creepass cop in the creepass woods telling us to go to a creep bass hotel and that's like. 38:50.77 Cameron And. And. 39:05.12 fireheartmedia Ah, more or less lifted directly from the dialogue and so like they ignore him and go to Hackett's quarry and that's when things start going wrong and. 39:06.23 Cameron So yeah, so. 39:16.76 fireheartmedia And they are taken off the playing board for a bit so it sounds very much like the recipe until dawn How there are a couple of characters that disappear for a while and then reappear later those same characters do show up later although not at the end of the game. They have a little bit of agency and a little bit of action. 39:21.76 Cameron Yes. 39:30.83 Cameron No. 39:36.63 fireheartmedia To them. Um, probably 2 thirds of the way through the game. Yeah, they end up with um, one of them anyway. Ends up with like the longest play through segment it like an hour yeah stuck as one character. Yeah so um, yeah, that that game. 39:46.48 Cameron I Yeah yeah. 39:56.30 fireheartmedia It's kind of ah a similar thing. They don't They don't exactly know what's going on at the Quarry They just know that they're you know, having some creepy experiences and whatever they they keep on chucking it up to bears and that is a drinking game for you watch. 40:08.80 Cameron And. 40:08.49 Adam Um. 40:11.72 fireheartmedia Somebody play that game or play that game yourself and take a shot anytime somebody mentions Bears you will be so drunk So fast. 40:15.80 Cameron Yeah, yeah, it is ah it is prevalent as an excuse for werewolfism. 40:24.20 fireheartmedia Um, yeah I was gonna say. 40:27.10 Adam To be to be honest, like a werewolf isn't that much scarier than a bear like running into a bear at Camp is also real bad news. 40:34.10 Cameron No yeah I mean I guess the thing is if you get away from the bear. There's not a risk that 3 hours later you'll explode and also turn into a bear. 40:45.94 Adam That is ah that's valid. 40:53.95 Cameron Ah, man. Um, yeah, ah, but yeah, the the. 41:00.97 fireheartmedia I'll pause just for a None Um, yeah Adam that should be fine I don't it. It does a backup honor our end. 41:06.80 Adam Okay, great. Um I'm also doing just a redundant Adobe audition recording ah for paranoia reasons. But yeah, ah it. 41:11.79 fireheartmedia Yeah, and we are We are too. So yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem Just thank you. Thank you for letting us know though. 41:15.32 Cameron That was fair. 41:22.13 Adam Yeah, it says that my my computer says that I have three hundred gigabytes of available space. So I don't know where it's getting that. So. 41:24.71 fireheartmedia yeah yeah I don't know the there's 5 gigs of cloud space that it backs ups you also so let's yeah, be fine. Okay proceed I run. 41:35.61 Cameron I proceed Yeah um, yeah, like like I said I was really glad it was werewols. Um, long term listener show. No I'm the guy who loves werewolves um and it felt. 41:35.90 Adam Gotcha Cool. Thank you. 41:55.17 Cameron Obvious like that that thing is until dawn like we mentioned has the twist part way through where it's not sore It's a real monster movie and it's been this the whole time whereas the quarry is a bit more straightforward and the interest is more in uncovering the story of how we got to this point. But you know like until dawn has a masksed man with a flamerower stamping around and a guy in a clown mask stamping around whereas the quarry you play this little 20 minute prologue but None characters and the camera zooms in on the full moon and starts singing fly me to the moon you go is it were wo. 42:30.64 fireheartmedia Susan. 42:31.14 Adam Um. 42:34.59 Cameron And like yeah, it's wells you were right? They told you in the first thirty minutes could have been bayonetta that would have been an excellent twist. 42:36.79 fireheartmedia Yeah, just appears and up being in front of the moon. Well I will say that these werewolves do not look like a wolf man type werewolf that you might. 42:37.20 Adam What if it was bayonetta. 42:43.37 Adam Um. 42:51.74 Cameron No. 42:54.79 fireheartmedia Be thinking about whatsoever they look to me more like Nos Forahtu or something because they're bald and you got the long tongues in the big old mouth with the I don't know anyway like not necessarily a hundred percent nos for Atu but they are reminiscent in some ways for some of the features that they've got. 42:57.67 Cameron Yeah, um. 43:09.27 Cameron Yeah, definitely they're they're all like mostly hairless and super elongated looking there. Um, if you've not seen them already. There's it's a good visual reference I think is like the werewolf in the None Harry Potter movie hits that same same kind of. 43:15.62 fireheartmedia Um. 43:24.39 Adam E. 43:28.33 Cameron Key note of it's a long gangly thing with lots of teeth and claws. Although the the teeth in some cases are really like jagged and messed up on a couple of the werewolves In this case, they they look definitely very less natural which I think is a good fit because they are you know. Very supernatural werewolves. Um, and ah it transfers all the way to the transformation sequence which we get to see a few times which is good. Um, because you know we we don't have anything long and drawn out and painful. This is some kind of weird Curse. So The wealth grows inside of your skin until. It gives it it until your body gives out and you explode into red mist and a werewolf is standing there and your so in your place. Ah yeah. 44:13.98 fireheartmedia I was going to talk about the transformation because I was just like this seems sort of anamorphy except not slow. This is like a real fast but gross and messy and probably extremely painful at least from the reactions of those characters. 44:25.13 Cameron Um, oh yeah, yeah yeah, ah. 44:32.71 Adam I mean I ah as I believe I mentioned before I have not played the quarry yet. So I'm being spoiled a little bit but that's fine. Ah what that reminds me of is of course the seminole 2004 Hugh Jackman vehicle van helsing which ah. 44:33.28 fireheartmedia Process. So. 44:37.34 fireheartmedia Um. 44:42.46 Cameron You knew what you signed up for. 44:50.79 Cameron Yep yep. 44:52.50 Adam Features werewolves who transform by ripping off their skin which is pretty metal like pretty yeah, that's a fun idea. 44:54.00 Cameron Um, yeah, it's pretty good and it it sort of calls back to a lot of early werewolol folklore as well because a traditional quote unquote traditional. Way to find out if someone is a werewolf is to cut their skin and see if there is wolfer underneath it because the idea is that the werewolf lives under your skin and when you transform you just pull it off and there you are. You're the Werewolf. So This is all kind of in that vein but obviously amped up for you. 45:15.54 Adam Ooh. 45:28.30 Cameron 2004 van helsing shocker and then amped up to a little explosion for 2022 standards I guess but yeah, it's it's fun to see it sort of draw back on that old root of it something physically inside of you not just the spiritual werewolf but it literally is there under the surface. 45:31.28 Adam E hit. 45:33.28 fireheartmedia As. 45:47.82 Cameron Is very cool to me and. 45:48.80 Adam Yeah, that that sounds pretty compelling to me. 45:52.45 Cameron Port. 45:54.80 fireheartmedia Yeah, and it's not just a physical change. They get a few minutes period of emotional duress that that the the cursed person is under to where they're aggressive and kind of hostile. 46:10.99 Cameron Yeah, yeah. 46:13.34 fireheartmedia Ah, and then they then they change and then they there's the the telltale Golden Golden eyes that they get before they transform. 46:20.20 Cameron They and they do really well with the animation here as Well. Like there's a couple of scenes where someone is beginning to transform and they start standing a little differently. It's subtle but the the whole body language sort of changes. Until they are almost like looming despite not actually being any taller yet and it sets you up for that. The camera stay still the explosion goes off and the wealth is there much taller than the original human form and is sort of yeah that. You get that emotional change the eyes change color the body language changes and then full wolf. Ah yeah. 47:01.85 fireheartmedia Yeah, and I think another aspect That's really interesting is the the werewolves themselves have have very high regenerative capabilities but that extends to their just cursed human form where they'll grow back limbs and eyes and. 47:12.54 Cameron The written. Yes. It? Yeah yeah, it does seem to be the way One of the characters. Ah from the prologue actually shows up part way through the game sort of kill bill style appears with an eye patch dramatically. Ah. 47:21.53 fireheartmedia Things Um, prior to them transforming and then I believe they just keep them. 47:39.31 Cameron And it ends up. Ah turns out that they've been bitten and partway through the game someone else just goes hey wait a second let me look under the eye patch and it's like oh your eye grew back and you just didn't notice because you had an eye patch on which is really funny and. 47:50.58 fireheartmedia Ah. 47:56.75 fireheartmedia Yeah, and the while they do explode they I guess explode back into human form. Yeah I was wondering about the time of them not and I think. 48:04.69 Cameron I yeah. 48:14.35 fireheartmedia So when they burst into their wolf form it shreds their clothes they're They're totally naked and then when they transform back. Well they get to keep that they're under things. 48:17.90 Cameron I Yeah yeah. 48:24.61 Cameron And I think that's literally for the modern day video game rating stuff because there there are characters literally going I'm completely naked while standing there in like boxer Briefs I'm like really naked help. 48:30.91 fireheartmedia Oh yeah, yeah, no, it is for Sure. Um. Um, yeah, it's It's good. It's yeah it it was a perk of the curse. Well, it's kind of yeah, it's It's kind of like. 48:38.13 Adam Um. 48:42.62 Cameron And like you got clothes on man, you're good. 48:48.34 Cameron Yeah, you get to keep the end of things. Nothing else shall survive. 48:50.20 Adam Um, so. 48:57.29 fireheartmedia Um, Bruce banner the hulk you know turning into the hulk but his pants miraculously are still they just become shorts. They just become shorts. It's fine. Don't worry about it. His crotch did not get any bigger which is a very funny image if you try to imagine that. 48:57.70 Cameron And. No I mean that's steroids for you. Ah yeah. 49:16.96 fireheartmedia Oh that's why he's angry I'd be angry too. The shorts are way too short way too tight I mean restricting man God I get some airflow. 49:24.57 Cameron Mm. Yeah, yeah. Ah, yeah, yeah, get that man a kilt. 49:32.11 Adam I Think we've cracked the code of why he's so angry. 49:32.31 fireheartmedia Yeah I think so well they the yeah, the physical design on the werewolves is while it's it's different than traditional. 49:43.34 Cameron So. 49:51.12 fireheartmedia Or at least pop cultural picture depictions of werewolves it does resemble what they decided to go with for the wind togo design. So I feel like that's an In-house Studio We're just gonna we like monsters to be gangling naked and bald. 49:58.28 Cameron And. 49:59.53 Adam Me. 50:06.82 Cameron It Yeah, it's sort of it. It feels like it fits like um, it's not explicitly a setting that all the supermassive games take place in but you kind of get the feel. 50:09.52 fireheartmedia It. 50:22.19 Cameron Over the course of until dawn the the dark pictures anthology and this that this is all sort of the same world with just weird different things happening at different periods in time. So it kind of makes sense that these None types of monsters that windowgoes in the wells that are both just. A transformed person within that same setting sort of end up similar relatively There's there's differences in the details but the overall shape and stuff is the same definitely and there's also the idea of yeah, the the actual deaf studios preference like. None 1 guy on the design team really likes this designer monster or everyone on the animation team went. This is probably the easiest way to do this. We've already got the skeletons rigged up from 2016. 51:06.77 fireheartmedia Um. 51:07.77 Adam E. 51:11.52 fireheartmedia Well and then two when it comes to the quarry. There are various characters who turn into werewolves but they need all of the werewolves to look the same so that way you can't tell which one is which so you don't know who you're killing or whatever if you're trying to hunt a werewolf. 51:24.82 Cameron Yes, yeah. 51:30.55 fireheartmedia That's part of the worry is like oh crap somebody got infected I Wonder who this is that ah is in this werewolf that I'm about to shoot or whatever. 51:36.70 Cameron So yeah, it does kind of backfire a little bit as well. Like um later in the game. There's lots of talks talk about the white wolf. 51:47.28 fireheartmedia Ah. 51:48.96 Cameron Which is like the the progenitor of the curse in this particular part of the story is like you know if we take out that one. Well everyone else will be cured and characters are talking about like yeah I saw it and I'm like which one was it. They all look they all look near identical to me. The lighting is. 51:59.52 fireheartmedia Um, yeah, and. 52:06.16 Cameron Dark enough in scenes that I don't think any particular color of werewolf stood out like okay sure. Yeah, yeah, the purple wolf would have been a better choice. Give it give it some real color. 52:10.34 fireheartmedia I Want the purple one. Ah. Is. 52:18.48 Adam Yeah, they do something somewhat similar in until dawn where there's like ah the most powerful when to go and you know like the Alpha Um, and they kind of make a big deal out of it but also like it's just. 52:24.97 Cameron Um. 52:36.12 Adam It doesn't look any different than the other ones meaningfully. So yeah. 52:36.26 Cameron Now it's just like 15% taller 52:39.40 fireheartmedia Um. 52:42.96 Cameron Yeah I mean it's there like you said for the story purposes. You need that ambiguity. There's there's several points in the story where someone goes hey it's that werewolf we're going to kill and someone goes no, it's probably someone else. Let's be sure before we you know try and do x x y. Whatever. Um, and you know I think that's okay, with within the within the the the immersion of playing it as well. I think that plays into the feeling of you don't know how many of these things are out there. Like the game started I was like you know, getting through some of the initial early monster sequences I went maybe there's just one and then immediately you you cut between like None character getting mold and another character getting chas to go. Okay, so there's definitely more than None and then it just keeps going from there like there could be a dozen of them. No. Maybe there's only the 2 or 3 maybe there's four or None and that uncertainty sort of does help keep a bit of tension in the background because you're never fully sure that the wealth you just saw occupied with a different character means that. This current character is safe kind of deal. Yeah. 53:52.96 Adam E. 53:56.90 fireheartmedia Yeah, well I will say that the the hackets for a family that's been cursed for 6 years dealing with this very specific problem has a terrible like it's not a surprise when you're going to turn into a werewolf. 54:04.70 Cameron And. 54:10.44 Cameron No. 54:12.68 fireheartmedia Their containment system's really bad. Also let's close the camp like the day before or the day of the transformation and everything and everybody's got to leave like now now like okay that's real dumb if you already know here by sundown you have to. 54:19.63 Cameron Yeah day of. 54:31.29 Cameron As. 54:31.68 fireheartmedia Go yeah, that's that's nonsense right? there that's not a good planning I will say though that when you see the the father and 1 of the sons doing the whole like hunting season. They put the sign out and they smear the blood on their face and stuff like. 54:41.95 Cameron I yeah. 54:50.93 fireheartmedia And 1 of the one of them is like the big burly dude with you know the overalls and no shirt on underneath in the ball cap like boy that was and they got the music twanging in the background that was a scene for sure and I'm like oh boy. 54:56.17 Cameron Yep yep. 55:04.11 Cameron So yeah, Lance Hendriken commenting on teen japes. Ah. 55:10.91 fireheartmedia Does he? What is he says he's like I'm fucking done or something. Yeah, he does at some point he's just like I'm yeah yeah, ah yeah, so definitely. 55:16.47 Cameron Yeah, he's watching the team set off fireworks. He's like fuck this these kids have willfully endangered themselves At this point I don't care anymore. 55:21.69 Adam Ah. 55:30.62 fireheartmedia Pretty much try to save these kids This is bullshit. 55:33.37 Cameron Um, yeah bit. Yeah. 55:35.50 Adam That's ah, that's got big tucker and Dale versus evil energy to me these kids just keep killing mothers themselves all over my property. Well officer had a doozy of a day. 55:38.39 fireheartmedia Yeah. 55:44.80 Cameron Um, but you know from I mean from their point of view is like we we told you we told you so many times to get out then you couldn't leave because the car was broken because one of you broke the car. 55:46.78 fireheartmedia Um, this is yeah, that's the. 55:59.30 Cameron So we told you to lock yourselves inside and then you immediately found fireworks and started having a beach party. What are we going to do. We've done everything we can. 56:03.50 fireheartmedia Um, yeah, it's like this point let darwin go and and darwinism shall prevail we will see who survives the night at this juncture. 56:11.27 Cameron Yeah, remember what doesn't kill. You makes you stronger. Yep. 56:20.88 fireheartmedia Yeah, and I think and stronger and stronger. Um, yeah, that's there's There's some silly stuff going on there and it's one of the the things in the beginning of the game when the kids like sabotage themselves to be stuck there. 56:37.26 Cameron And. 56:40.70 fireheartmedia And Chris Hackett the the camp count the main head of the camp is like okay kids you got to like stay here. It stay here and lock you know lock the doors and don't go outside for anything and this is a bunch of bullshit and I got to go and you're as the player like well. 56:43.83 Cameron And. 56:55.17 Cameron Yeah. 56:59.61 fireheartmedia Well, you have a car man you could It wouldn't have been comfortable Would you all could ah you could have taken him into town or something and like yeah that would that would not have worked that would have been even worse. 57:07.28 Cameron Yeah, you you 20 minutes down the I 35 and the driver explodes into a werewolf. 57:12.42 fireheartmedia Yeah, Well definitely. That was a comment that I made when we were playing it when we were at that part I was like homie you have a car you can absolutely at least take some of them or you can. Stay there and let them cram and themselves into the car and let them drive your car off to town and you will catch up tomorrow. You know you could have done that you could have let them go instead and let them all crammed in there like a clown car and you know made their way out of there and that would. 57:34.71 Cameron You yeah. 57:43.53 Cameron And. 57:45.97 fireheartmedia The easy route. He just let them have his car for the evening because what's more important at this point said yeah I got to go down and check the basement kids um lock the like I'm locking it from the outside you got a walk. Don't let me out no matter what I say what hear noise. 57:56.40 Cameron I. 58:04.51 fireheartmedia Go in 1 thing I didn't mention about the quarry is that you do have like in the dark pictures anthology when you have a curator you have a curator role character. There is the woman from the circus caravan who reads. 58:06.10 Cameron Ah, yeah, yeah. 58:14.41 Cameron And. 58:21.27 Cameron And. 58:24.34 fireheartmedia Fortunes with toot cards and so you have that same mechanic that you do with until done when it comes to the totems and having like a glimpse of the future that happens. But basically you have to pick you you collect these toro cards throughout the game as you play some of them present themselves. Very obviously when you switch camera angles and other ones you have to actually actively hunt for and once at the end of the chapter you come across this curator character. She will look at the cards tell you a little bit about each card to give you an idea of what kind of a hint you might receive from you know, learning more about that card and then she says I can only read one of these to give you a glimpse into the future What do you want to see and then you pick one. And you know you might have 4 cards on the table but you get None option. So then you can see more or not see more. It is your and then she will just show you like a glimpse of something that's coming up in her crystal ball and that scene that is portrayed. 59:14.55 Adam In. 59:19.65 Cameron About me. 59:31.52 fireheartmedia Is just like an important instance. It's not necessarily like a turning point persone like it's it's ah it's important instance but it's not necessarily like okay you have to be sure to do X like it doesn't tell you that it just basically makes you aware of when there's like an. 59:35.65 Cameron And. 59:43.89 Cameron Yeah, yeah, yeah. 59:44.31 Adam Yeah. 59:48.61 fireheartmedia Important decision that has to be made or an important action. Yeah. 59:50.40 Cameron And. 59:51.40 Adam Yeah, the the totems in until dawn would be like here's a glimpse of the future. There is a deer and it's like okay. 59:59.41 Cameron Um. 01:00:04.15 Adam And it's like cool but you're not telling me like the articulation point that I need to like pay attention to you know you're just there is a deer got it. 01:00:09.83 Cameron Um, yeah, some of them in the quarry felt more useful because I remember a lot of them in until dawn being like 6 frames or something it felt like completely isn't these are a tiny bit longer. 01:00:17.72 fireheartmedia Um, yes. 01:00:22.70 Adam E. 01:00:27.90 Cameron And some of them are sort of more direct in showing you what's going Some of them are just like here's a black room and there's a tiny bit of light I'm like I don't know what that means and one of them was like here's you cutting some other counselor's hand off with a chainsaw and the text of the card is like this is a useful thing to know I'm like okay I guess. When I get the chance I'll do that. 01:00:49.80 fireheartmedia Ah. 01:00:52.27 Cameron And it was apparently the right choice although it did also lead to that character getting killed like 4 hours later so well done me. Um I feel yeah feel they were more useful in um, in the quarry and I think ah also part of that is their less. Compartmentalized like in in until dawn. They're sorted into like 4 categories which like depends on the severity of the of the moment that they're showing but is you know like here's a guide totem or here's a death totem like none of these. Like some of the guide totem stuff led me to get a character killed because I didn't understand what it was trying to tell me and then some of the death todm stuff wasn't actually a character dying like the very none death totem. You find shows a character dying and that character doesn't actually die in that moment and I'm like. 01:01:34.41 fireheartmedia This. 01:01:34.64 Adam Um. 01:01:48.59 Cameron Okay, this is this is very strange whereas in yeah in the Quarry they were more straightforward and I think with the with the accompanying text of the tarra card which it was also a nice touch sort of lays into the themes behind each specific card because it's the the main. Sweet You know the Magician the full all all that kind of thing. Yeah, the major arc kind of thank you I forgot the term um it actually leans into the themes of each of those cards a bit and so you get a little more context for what that card's vision might mean whereas until dawn you pick up. 01:02:09.72 fireheartmedia Yep, Major arcnna. 01:02:25.70 Cameron Ah, a little bit of a toten pole and you see 2.5 seconds of the future and you've got no idea right. 01:02:32.50 fireheartmedia Yeah, as somebody who actually reads to row cards. Yeah I was happy that they were using the major Arcana and that the descriptions that the curator character was giving you were accurate descriptions of what the significance of each card is. 01:02:35.48 Cameron So. 01:02:44.44 Cameron Button. 01:02:49.83 Cameron Yeah. 01:02:52.90 fireheartmedia So so yeah, that was a ah nice surprise. Yeah, and in comparison to until dawn The the Fortune Teller is sort of. 01:02:55.97 Cameron Oh. 01:03:10.51 fireheartmedia Fitting the role that petertomari played as the therapist in the None game. Um in that she's speaking directly to she's speaking to the player whereas the other ones. It's sort of None wall messing with. 01:03:11.69 Cameron Um. 01:03:23.10 Cameron Yeah. 01:03:29.65 Adam E. 01:03:30.29 fireheartmedia In both games. But ah the cards you're getting in the quarry are they're not only her cards from the incident that caused the whole thing to start with with the hackets but they're also her agenda. 01:03:47.81 Cameron Yes. 01:03:49.89 fireheartmedia So when it's showing you glimpses of things and you you're you're given a sort of direction. Um and a method to to get rid of the hackets if you like pick those options because that's what she wants you to do? yeah. 01:04:01.32 Cameron And yes, yes, she she has a clear thing. She wants you to do whereas. It's a little more a little more murky with Peter Stormer in until dawn who's just there to sort of guide the game a little bit. Um. Which was something in until dawn that I think could have been interesting in the quarry until dawn there Peter Stormer will have you pick what you think is scarier out of a certain set of things and I believe it influences None or 2 jump scares later in the game. Nothing nothing too crazy. But. 01:04:35.75 Adam It it does but like it's literally like well are you scared of spiders and then it's like yes I'm scared of spiders and the next scene of spider shows up and it like it's really pretty blunt. 01:04:39.34 Cameron Yeah I. Yeah, yeah, Oh yeah, but it's fun to be able to to tailor the scary part of the narrative a little I think. 01:04:52.20 fireheartmedia Um, let's roll on the note. 01:04:58.49 Adam Can I Also say that that um psychologist framing device is like also actionably the framing device from Silent Hill shattered memories. 01:05:01.97 Cameron And. 01:05:13.85 Adam Ah, a not amazing video game that I have a weird soft spot for but like it's really really the same thing. 01:05:14.53 Cameron Um. 01:05:20.60 Cameron yeah yeah I can see that. Ah yeah, um, although I do have to say the quarry does let you customize your game experience a lot more than until dawn a lot of other ways which ah has any. Have either of you Dave Ojala tried out the movie mode or. 01:05:41.27 fireheartmedia I Watched a friend of mine stream it on movie mode because said friend was has had already played through once and then turned right back around again and was doing like a whole like entire. 01:05:44.98 Cameron And. 01:05:57.55 fireheartmedia Weekend of streaming of the quarry and finish the game like 2 or 3 times over the weekend. Um, just like marathoning it with a friend on the couch and you know just streaming the entire thing. So um. 01:05:57.60 Cameron Yeah, so. 01:06:10.91 fireheartmedia That being the case they had turned it on movie mode which basically takes out like the Qt's you still make your decisions but the qtes and I believe even the shooting sections are taken out on that mode and so that just basically means that you know you don't have to worry about killing the characters off. 01:06:15.34 Cameron Okay, yeah I. 01:06:27.40 fireheartmedia By missing a button push or something and then you're just kind of watching everything play out. Um, otherwise. 01:06:31.88 Adam Does does it like default you to the golden ending where everyone survives and you complete all quick time events or is there still room for teens to die. 01:06:42.54 Cameron Ah, so you can actually pick I believe like it straight up says it's got a thing where everyone lives everyone dies or neither so you you can pick the the dark ending the golden ending or you can actually set. I Believe predilections for the characters. So in stressful situations. This character will be bold or anxious or whatever and if you set it like that you can just let it play out and see what decisions they make and see who actually makes it to the end I believe right. 01:07:00.58 Adam Smooth. 01:07:15.34 Adam Very nice. 01:07:16.86 Cameron I haven't actually experimented with myself yet. But it's certainly certainly an interesting way and you know for people for whom having to actively make the decision themselves might be ah much more anxiety induicing that that again that level of immersion. This is another way you can sort of distance yourself a bit. 01:07:33.78 fireheartmedia Um. 01:07:35.57 Cameron And literally experience it as a movie which is kind of cool. 01:07:38.30 fireheartmedia Yeah, it's yeah, it's It's also good for accessibility as well. Um, so the the friend that had gone through and it does have a chronic illness and does have you know like a disability and so. 01:07:38.58 Adam Yeah, no I Really like that they give you those options that's cool to hear. 01:07:44.74 Cameron Yes, so. 01:07:57.50 fireheartmedia Ah, important for her to be able to you know, see everything the way that she would I'd like to see it So definitely good for our accessibility reasons as well. 01:08:03.16 Cameron You? Yeah excellent. 01:08:08.60 Adam Yeah, I'm always happy to to hear stories about accessibility modes like making a difference. So. 01:08:15.48 fireheartmedia Yeah, absolutely and you know I don't know how um the co-op online co-op versions work insofar as the qtes are concerned because um. Like I said I haven't had a chance to take a look and see if that update actually went through or not or um, you know or if it got delayed but um, you know you're supposedly making taking votes on Decisions. So I don't know. 01:08:42.35 Cameron Okay. 01:08:45.10 fireheartmedia What the Qte E is what happens like is the person who started the game in control of the Qte es or do those just play Automatically no idea offhand on that. 01:08:52.60 Cameron Yeah, and that's interesting. 01:08:52.71 Adam E. 01:08:59.41 fireheartmedia So between the 2 games we have the the window go and the werewolf we kind of looked at a little bit more on what the where what? what they did with the werewolves in the quarry. Ah, and. 01:09:11.30 Cameron I. 01:09:17.27 Cameron And. 01:09:17.47 fireheartmedia Years ago we took a look at the window. Go ah but um, so Adam what was your like and and not no means specifically reaction. But um, how did you feel about these window goes when they did finally start showing up. 01:09:31.74 Adam Yeah I I am pretty into the window goes ah in until dawn as a horror movie monster. They um what they feel like is if like what if when a didite possesses you it turns you into a werewolf. Like I do think that there's a lot of werewolf Dna in this incarnation of the when to goes but like the cool twist to me. Um, is that in order to become a when to go 1 You have to choose to become a cannibal. 01:09:51.14 Cameron So. 01:10:08.60 Adam So like there is an element of of choosing to you know cross cross that boundary and then the spirit of the when to go enters you and transforms you into the monster. But what this means is that when you kill a when to go The spirit is released and free to possess. 01:10:20.50 Cameron Button. 01:10:27.40 Cameron 3 yeah. 01:10:27.28 Adam A new body and I think that's a really cool I made a note that it's like that feels like a D and D problem where it's like okay, there's ah, there's an immortal monster that will reincarnate every time I kill it. How do I actually stop it and the solution that the the stranger. 01:10:36.80 Cameron Mm. 01:10:46.76 Adam You know this flamethrower wielding. Ah I believe he's a None nations person. Ah, who's who's related to the mountain. Um, and is you know familiar with the mythology. His solution is killing them doesn't necessarily work. You got to trap them. 01:10:51.00 Cameron Yes, yeah, so. 01:11:01.42 Cameron Um. 01:11:03.12 Adam And so he just like locks them away in this abandoned Asylum presumably forever which I think is a really neat solution to that problem. Um, you know that if if there is a finite number of spirits and you can trap them in hosts. 01:11:11.93 Cameron Um, yeah. 01:11:20.85 Adam And presuming that they they can't simply starve to death which would release the spirit then like that's a clever. Ah, ah yeah, there's that there's a turn of phrase that I'm losing. Ah yeah, it's it's. 01:11:29.37 Cameron The solution. Yeah, ah. 01:11:40.91 Adam It's a clever lateral thinking solution to a problem that's not obvious and then as far as like just how they look and how they move I think they're suitably creepy. You know they're tall. They're gaunt. They're spindly um and they move with like a really jerky Jittery speed. 01:11:43.41 Cameron Mm. 01:11:52.21 Cameron Yeah, so. 01:11:58.76 Cameron Mm they they almost looks up motion. Yeah. 01:11:59.79 Adam They're very fast. Um, but they but they scuttle is stopmo yeah like they do have like a kind of Harryhausen quality to them. Um, which feels fun and classic. So I think that they're they're a cool monster. 01:12:07.10 Cameron Written. 01:12:12.50 Cameron Yeah, yeah. 01:12:17.62 Adam Ah, and um, one of my favorite details is that they have the power of Mimicry and they can imitate voices which is a cool and effective horror trope. You know it makes me think of the movie annihilation and like the bear. Oh. 01:12:22.23 Cameron Yes. 01:12:32.90 Cameron Yeah, our God the bear. 01:12:36.98 fireheartmedia A lot of what you're saying and I I did not listen to the episode with when to go from prior but a lot of what you're saying that sounds very much like what I know of the actual legends of when to go. So. 01:12:37.11 Adam It's so scary. 01:12:41.73 Cameron I. 01:12:51.18 Cameron So yeah, yeah, it's very in line with the the traditional tales right down to it being a possessing spirit rather than just a physical monster which is pretty cool. 01:12:51.70 Adam E. 01:13:01.90 fireheartmedia Yes, yeah, yeah, but. 01:13:05.90 Adam That does have like some cosmological implications so you know ah poor went out for the the religious scholars in the until Dawn universe. 01:13:09.27 Cameron Um, the yeah. 01:13:17.64 fireheartmedia Yeah, and then trying to see a sort of through line in these games and piece together. What terrify if this is one like shared world like it's not a safe place. 01:13:30.23 Cameron No, oh absolutely not, but just the whole American Northwest is incredibly haunted and the ocean. 01:13:35.53 Adam E. 01:13:41.70 fireheartmedia And the ocean and yeah and wherever they were in house of Ashes I forget what country deep deep down in the earth yeah somewhere in the Middle East not sure I don't no safe places. Don't don't dig too deep. Don't go into you know. 01:13:47.92 Cameron And. 01:14:01.27 Cameron Yeah, no, why would you do that. 01:14:01.43 fireheartmedia Standard tender safety things. Don't don't don't go into the dark forest alone. No or they abandon an asylum. Don't go to summer camp. 01:14:06.57 Adam Ah, this is maybe a silly question but um, they they haven't actually connected these stories and explicitly stated they're in the same universe correct. 01:14:11.29 Cameron Um. 01:14:16.57 Cameron I Don't believe so I. 01:14:17.10 fireheartmedia Ah, no, they never said that but what they what they do do is put flashes of the next game like in in each previous game. So. 01:14:32.18 Adam 12 01:14:32.82 Cameron And. 01:14:36.17 fireheartmedia While they may not like actually be connected. They're they're physically connected as far as the the games are concerned. 01:14:40.35 Cameron Yeah, yeah, definitely feels. 01:14:40.73 Adam Right? But they haven't done like what remedy did with control and be like actually this is all all of our games are connected. 01:14:47.58 Cameron Ah, no that that'll be like 10 years down the track they'll release the next game and it'll be like the werewolf camp councillors have gone to the wendigo mountain to fight the zombie horses. 01:14:47.96 fireheartmedia Ah, Allen Wake arent yeah. 01:14:58.56 Adam Um. 01:14:59.24 fireheartmedia Yeah, yeah, that don't like recon this shared universe just just have these little isolated make it like supernatural where it's just things just happen and you don't have to pick them. 01:15:07.32 Cameron Yeah I m yeah. 01:15:17.30 Adam Ramy Malik has become a dark wizard. 01:15:17.87 Cameron On I. 01:15:23.35 fireheartmedia ah ah yeah yeah I think that that pretty much covers these 2 games unless anyone has anything that they wanted to mention before we call this one. 01:15:35.10 Cameron Ah, no I think that's a pretty decent coverage. 01:15:40.85 Adam Yeah, ah my my clothing closing thought is that I like these games. Ah you know they're they're kind of dumb in a way that really appeals to me. Um, you know as previously stated like. 01:15:45.60 Cameron Um, yes. 01:15:56.50 Adam I Have a weird soft spot for Van helsing me and my brothers watch it like anytime that we get together. Ah I Love you know Evil dead and I feel like this until dawn definitely has like some evil dead energy to it that I appreciate like there's some real the the. 01:15:57.18 Cameron Um, yeah, excellent and. 01:16:13.49 Adam The performances I think are really charismatically captured and ah some of them are suitably broad. You know, ah the the therapist and Ramy Malick's character specifically are really entertaining pretty goofy performances. 01:16:27.75 Cameron Um, yeah. 01:16:29.73 Adam And I'm just kind of I'm just kind of here for this So I have not played the dark pictures anthology or the quarry but they're definitely on my list I like this kind of this specific flavor of camp. 01:16:38.15 Cameron Um, nice I will say the dark pictures I've only played most of the man of Madan so far. It's definitely more budget horror than the the main games obviously the smaller endeavors between their main. Games. Ah, but just just don't expect anything from dialogue my god we went. We went past cheese to some kind of new fermented dairy product. Ah. 01:17:11.18 fireheartmedia Or maybe it's like the fermented shark that folks in Norway eat or whatever the stuff that only only people who are acclimated can even stomach. Yeah. 01:17:13.76 Cameron Oh yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah, yeah, because there the Dialogue Dialogue's a bit rough in a man of but and still very enjoyable and it it feels nice as ah as an encapsulated. Until dawn or the quarry style experience sort of shrunk down in scale and scope a bit which it does have a smaller cast which is also nice. But yeah, don't expect that the the same level of quality is until dawn there just just be aware of that and. 01:17:42.83 Adam E. 01:17:52.70 Adam I think I mean I think I'm largely okay with that like I I'm fine with a lower budget shorter thing I'm interested in seeing where it goes even if it's not going to be. You know a total success. 01:17:55.79 Cameron M. 01:18:02.77 Cameron Yeah, yeah, fair. So. 01:18:09.80 fireheartmedia Yeah I think that's the same with a little hope and the other one that I can't think of the name of ah it house of ashes. Yeah, that's the one that that's the one that I watched. 01:18:16.19 Cameron And None 01:18:19.43 Adam Ah, the house house of ashes. 01:18:23.21 Cameron And. 01:18:27.57 fireheartmedia Yeah, they're all they are all a little bit more self-contained which I I kind of I appreciate that it's nicer to have something more bite size than I felt even that the Corey was ah a little long in the tooth. 10 hours was not like it's not like a big ask. But. 01:18:31.30 Cameron And. 01:18:46.95 fireheartmedia Part way through like okay can we we see where it's going. You can probably wrap this up a little bit and then they added a whole another chunk of the game. They're like a whole section of the game they did but it wasn't in a way that it didn't. 01:18:53.45 Cameron Yeah. 01:18:54.97 Adam Is. 01:19:03.00 fireheartmedia Add a whole lot to it because it ended up short shrifting like None the cast and yeah, we we mean we understand that that's part of most these characters are supposed to probably have not been there anymore. Um, but what if your your chosen final. Teen like they didn't make it or whatever they're the one. That's the last person there and they just didn't get anything to do so Um, yeah, they definitely.. There's definitely favorites in the cast as far as like the strength that they put. Behind like the character so that'll be interesting to see with their next game. What they do each of these has been iterative. They've improved a lot of things their their motion capture and and their software for like rendering faces is. 01:19:41.62 Cameron Written. 01:19:41.84 Adam For sure. 01:20:00.92 fireheartmedia Is becoming pretty phenomenal. It's it's out of it's a little further away from the Uncanny Valley now um until dawn for its time at None looked I mean looked really good, but it still had ah somethings off with I think the eyes or the. 01:20:12.74 Cameron Oh yeah I. 01:20:18.63 Cameron So. 01:20:20.77 fireheartmedia Mouth something some some motion in there was a little too like puppet like doll like or something but that that didn't really feel too much the case in the quarry aside from a few times where you could tell that they're recording these the motions and everything in in different. 01:20:26.20 Cameron Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:20:27.40 Adam Yeah. 01:20:40.36 fireheartmedia Faces like like independently max in the very beginning is just looking at Laura's collarbone or boobs or who knows what but not looking where he needs to be looking like the whole time it wasn't just like 1 little part. It was the entire beginning like his just eyes his his head is not in the right place. 01:20:44.33 Cameron No, no yeah so. 01:20:46.37 Adam Ah, ah. 01:20:59.31 fireheartmedia He's supposed to be driving a car and he's like looking down and going dude eyes on the road please please and then I think he's trying to help her climb something and he's just looking off into the distance. It's like okay it it's it's it's. 01:21:01.24 Cameron Yeah, please. 01:21:03.93 Adam Um, ah. 01:21:11.28 Adam E. 01:21:12.22 Cameron And. 01:21:16.36 fireheartmedia Breaks you out of the moment because like what is going something is he Okay, yeah I know I was actually like is there something wrong with him because he's like not you know where he's not where he needed to be right now. But. 01:21:27.17 Cameron Um, yeah, yeah. 01:21:27.45 Adam What one of his character traits is that he doesn't understand the eyelines. 01:21:32.30 fireheartmedia Mean maybe now it know later on he didn't yeah he did just have that problem. It was just whenever they did the prologue. Um, maybe I don I don't know I think they were just really focused on getting Ted Rami like on point they they put all their energy into him. 01:21:49.12 Cameron I Yeah, definitely. 01:21:51.29 Adam I got to say that's such a selling point to me ah Ted Ramey is an absolute delight in ah Ash versus the evil dead the television show. Um, he's he's great. So. 01:21:52.30 fireheartmedia Ah. 01:22:01.14 fireheartmedia Yeah, and anything he's ever been in. He's just so good. 01:22:09.78 Adam That's what that's one of my big motivations for wanting to play the quarry. 01:22:11.15 Cameron Yeah, definitely go for it. It's well worth your time. 01:22:17.66 fireheartmedia All right? Well I think we'll we'll call this one and wrap it up. Do our little bit of admin. So jollo where can folks find you on the internet. They can find me at jolaan in places including jolahan place where I do. Jolahan's place a podcast that is a series of interdisciplinary discussions with friends. We cover various media and alternate that with talking about real life. Issues and topics that are of interest excellent and Adam how about yourself. 01:22:56.85 Adam I am just starting to dip my toes into podcasts I'm around you can ah you know probably do a Google search and find me in a couple places if you're interested in following me on Twitter where I mostly talk about tabletop stuff I am @AdamBucceri and if you want to check out my game stuff. You can find me on http://itch.io under my publishing name boo cherry which is boo like the ghost cherry like the fruit. 01:23:30.15 fireheartmedia All right I'll have those as it mentioned in the show notes links and cameron how about yourself. 01:23:36.52 Cameron You can primarily find me on Twitter @night_twitten that's night without a k come by look at photos of my cat hear me complain about how tired I am because I have a wedding in seven weeks and that's taking all my energy and focus but also works happening. So. Life life. Yay um, mostly mostly come for the photos of my cat. She's real cute I promise. 01:24:04.89 fireheartmedia All right? You can find our our wayward co-host Leonard on Twitter at Dr Faust is dead also on Youtube under the same and I believe umbernox productions. Yes, so also on Twitter and Youtube. As for myself, you can find me on Twitter at sentionaut_plus and the show itself you can find on at http://monsterdear.monster so that'll be us for this episode, bye folks!