Fr. Craig (00:04):
Welcome to Men of the Hearts, a monthly podcast from the Archdiocese of Detroit Office of Priestly Vocations. Join me, your host Fr. Craig Giera —

Fr. David (00:12):
And me, Fr. David Pelican.

Fr. Craig (00:13):
As we explore the priesthood, hear vocation stories from priests all over the archdiocese, and answer questions about discerning priestly a vocation. Tune in every month to wherever you get your podcasts, and learn more at detroitpriestlyvocations.com. So how are you doing Fr. David?

Fr. David (00:29):
I am doing well. It is a very nice day here at Divine Child rectory. We've got nice warm temperatures. It's looking like it's going to get up in the lower to mid-sixties today. So I'm I'm feeling good. How are you Fr. Craig?

Fr. Craig (00:45):
I'm doing excellent. God has blessed me very much this week and this month, and just a lot of good things happening in my life and in the life of the Church. Anything happening with you? Any new and exciting things happen in the past month?

Fr. David (00:59):
Well, we did do something here at Divine Child. We built a massive chapel out of snow. So we got this idea from my classmate and friend, Fr. Tom Merkel, who's up at Michigan Tech, where they get a lot more snow and have a bunch of engineers studying there. And every year they make a snow chapel as part of their winter carnival. And we kind of stole the idea here and built something that, you know, turned out really beautiful. We got a lot of the students involved and we, you know, we just created these massive wooden forms, stamped the snow into them and made these giant bricks, built some walls, and had Mass outside a couple Sundays ago. A chilly Mass. I told people the coolest Mass they've ever been to, quite literally.

Fr. Craig (01:44):
The coolest Mass. I like it a lot. How long did it take to build the chapel?

Fr. David (01:49):
It was kind of a spur of the moment idea. We started building the chapel itself on a Thursday and we had Mass that Sunday. So we spent the afternoon Thursday, afternoon Friday, the morning Saturday, and some finishing touches on Sunday. Had Mass that evening.

Fr. Craig (02:07):
And it was a legit structure. I mean, you made these forms out of wood and you packed them in, and when you put all the candles in the snow and it just looked awesome.

Fr. David (02:17):
Beautiful. Yeah. The walls were about, about eight feet, eight to 10 feet tall, steeple a little higher than that. So yeah.

Fr. Craig (02:25):
And then parishioners gave, like, a Crucifix, right? And, to decorate it with different things?

Fr. David (02:28):
People just loved to get involved with it. That was one of the things that just really surprised and overwhelmed me. The kids were just, they were so into it, especially junior high and high school. And the parishioners, yeah, one of them drove by and said, "Hey, I got 50 candles. You want them?" So we put those in the walls. Somebody else drove by and said, "I've got a massive, you know, four-foot crucifix. You want it?" So we put it up on the back wall. We had some stained glass windows that they'd — fake stained glass windows that they made for a play here. We put those up too. Some lights behind them. It was really beautiful.

Fr. Craig (03:00):
Yeah. That's awesome. And you did the Herculean effort of most of it really, because it was your idea and you were out there a lot, so good on you for doing that. And if anybody wants to learn more about just the whole process and what he did, there's a beautiful article on Detroit Catholic that explains a lot and has an interview with you and any of our listeners want to want to check it out, go ahead and check it out. It's pretty cool. It's a really awesome.

Fr. David (03:26):
That's right. Hey, how about you Fr. Craig? I know you've you've had a lot going on with the Vocations Office, but also around here. Huh? You've been doing anything fun lately.

Fr. Craig (03:35):
Yeah. You know, I've, you know, gotten some swag, so we got, like, sweatshirts made, we've got some coffee mugs that I've started to give out, and water bottles with our logo on it. So that was pretty cool. Someone actually came to me and asked if they could use the image to get a tattoo of it. And so that was pretty cool, someone thought it was that cool that they wanted to have a tattoo of the Immaculate and Sacred Hearts. So that's awesome.

Fr. David (03:58):
Yeah, that's really cool.

Fr. Craig (03:59):
I've been trying to get into the schools and into the churches, and I really wanted to put together a really good kind of like, you know, something just more than me talking. And I had this idea of using my artwork from all the way from beginning of high school all the way until up until now to really explain what vocations are.

Fr. Craig (04:21):
And it was really fun to kind of go back to even my high school days and to see some of the awful art that I — I mean totally awful, and then how it progressed and how you could see the progression. So that was really cool for me. And I did tell you about how beauty really moved me in my vocation and how God spoke to me through beauty. And one of the things that I didn't mention is that music is really, really a part of my life. So I made kind of a goal last November to listen to an album a day and to review it. Because I kind of just got stuck on the same albums over and over again. And it was kind of getting, you know, it's distasteful, I'm getting bored with music. So it just really opened up a new world.

Fr. Craig (05:04):
And I crossed my hundred-album mark a couple of weeks ago. So, that's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. We go from anywhere from chant to classical music, to rock, to hard rock, whatever it is, just listen to it. Some oldies that I've listened to before and branching out and listening to new stuff. I'm amazed. I found some, just some great artists and yeah, it's kind of, my love for music has really grown again. And it's really like a story. I find that listening to an album from the very beginning to the very end is like, just a story told through music and I love a good story and just kind of really opened up creativity and all these other things in my life. So it's a great thing, and I believe that God asked me to do this. It wasn't necessarily my idea, so yeah. Good stuff.

Fr. David (05:56):
Sure.

Fr. Craig (05:56):
So I think our listeners really want to know what did what did you buy for the house at Costco this month?

Fr. David (06:01):
[laughs] Well, I got to tell you Fr. Craig I'm, I'm not as pleased with Costco this month as I was last month.

Fr. Craig (06:10):
Really? Why?

Fr. David (06:11):
Yeah. Well, let me tell you why. So, so here's the deal. You go to Costco and I do love Costco. I'll always love Costco, but they've brought back samples. Okay. So they have the samples out at Costco. You can go up, you can see them, you can smell them. You can look at them, but you cannot eat them.

Fr. Craig (06:32):
What?

Fr. David (06:32):
It defeats the purpose of a sample, right? Where they have samples that you can't sample. I don't like that. It's cruel.

Fr. Craig (06:40):
So they like make bacon and then just make you smell it and you can't eat it.

Fr. David (06:43):
Exactly. Exactly. So, I'm not very happy with Costco right now about that. But I did, I do still go. And this month I bought, what are they, wisps? Cheese crisps? These little these little cheddar cheese — I don't know how you even describe them.

Fr. Craig (07:00):
I wouldn't know because they didn't share them with me. They went so incredibly fast.

Fr. David (07:05):
That's right. I bought two bags, but you got to understand there's four priests here and yeah, they went in a couple of days. Yeah.

Fr. Craig (07:14):
And I do think, you know, Fr. David bought me Coca-Cola because I like Coca-Cola. Fr. David was buying Pepsi and I'm like, "Fr. David, why do you like Pepsi? You know?" And he's like, "I don't drink any pop whatsoever." And I'm like, "Well, then start buying Coke. 'Cause I like Coke." [laughs] And he did. So I've been drinking a lot of Coke lately. And a parishioner brought one of the — a couple of big containers of peanut butter pretzels from Costco.

Fr. David (07:39):
Oh yes. Oh gosh.

Fr. Craig (07:41):
Those things are amazing. I could be full after dinner and bloated and not being able to eat anything else, but yet I'll still take a handful of the peanut butter pretzels.

Fr. David (07:51):
Yeah. They're all, there's nothing like 'em man. But, you know, Fr. Craig, we talk so much about Costco, we should see if they like want to sponsor us or something. You know, why not? Oh man. [laughs]

Fr. Craig (08:03):
Well, let's, let's start talking about discernment and a little bit more about the priesthood because this is what the podcast is all about.

Fr. David (08:12):
We'll do a separate podcast on Costco sometime. Yeah.

Fr. Craig (08:14):
Right, right. So this episode, we really wanted to talk a little bit more about signs. Signs that God can give us to know that we're going in the right direction, signs that could help confirm whatever call that the Lord has asked for our lives, a way in which the Lord can give us a push in the right direction. And it's kind of difficult actually to understand whether or not we should be asking for signs. I think within discernment, we should always be asking God, you know, "What should I be doing with my life? What do you want from me?" You know? 'Cause of course, God knows us better than ourselves. But there is a point where we could almost in a sense, be tempting God, like, you know, "If this happens, then I'll do that." And we keep on asking for signs, almost like the Pharisees in the Gospel, "Well show us a sign." Well, he just cured someone. He just raised the dead, you know? Like what other sign do you need? But they kept on asking for it. So we were talking the other day, just a little bit about that and you brought something up that was very helpful to understand. And it was about Mary and Zachariah. You want to explain that a little?

Fr. David (09:18):
Yeah. Yeah. I'd be happy to. So, we find both stories in the beginning of Luke's Gospel. Zachariah and Mary are both told about the coming birth of respectively, John the Baptist and Jesus. And they both actually respond in very similar ways. When the angel comes to Zachariah and tells him that he's going, his wife is going to give birth to this child, John the Baptist, he reacts kind of incredulously, right? He says, how can this be? My wife is advanced in years. You know? It's like, naturally, this isn't possible. Similarly for Mary the angel comes to her, tells her that she is going to conceive and bear Jesus in her womb. And she says the same thing, like, how can this be? It's not naturally possible. I have no relations with a man.

Fr. Craig (10:12):
Yeah, and if Mary's sinless, then what's the difference between Zachariah and Mary, then?

Fr. David (10:16):
Right. Well and Zachariah, clearly the angel wasn't too pleased with his attitude, 'cause the angel tells him he's not going to speak for another year until the baby's born. But that doesn't happen with Mary. And I think it speaks to just the different ways that we can question. Right? The different ways that we can pose questions to God in the sense, asking for a sign or reassurance or something. I think it strikes me that that Mary did it with faith. You know, that she was like, "All right, Lord, I trust you, but I don't understand how." Versus Zachariah saying "I don't understand, therefore I don't believe."

Fr. Craig (10:58):
Hmm. Yeah. And you would think Zachariah would, he's a priest, he's in the presence of God all the time. And an angel comes to him. I mean, how many angels have you seen in your life, Fr. David? [laughs] So if an angel came to me, you know, I would want to believe, of course we're supposed to test all spirits to make sure that it is from God, but you know, here the angel comes in the temple and speaks to Zachariah and he's just, you know, "My wife is old. There's no way that this is going to happen." And he's struck, you know? He can't speak. Right? But Mary, when he comes to Mary she's like, "How can this be?" You know? And then, you know, "Be it done to me according to thy word," like, it's a beautiful calling. It's a beautiful vocation story. We don't think about that with Mary, because Mary could have said no, right?

Fr. David (11:44):
Absolutely. I'm glad she didn't.

Fr. Craig (11:46):
Yeah, exactly, right? But she was given that choice and she's like, "How could this be? But be it done to me according to that word." And what was interesting when I put that presentation together with all of my artwork, I included, of course, famous master artists and different things. And I had a number of pictures of Mary being called by the angel Gabriel. And I asked the students, what's the same in all of these pictures? And if you notice, Mary always has scripture opened in all of those paintings, you know? She was contemplating God. She was reading the Word. She was understanding her faith so that when the angel did come to her, that she was prepared, it was almost as if she was preparing her whole life for this one moment, that she knew that, you know, something amazing is happening.

Fr. Craig (12:34):
Could this be fulfilling the prophecy that is in scripture here? And she was able to say yes to that. So I think for us, you know, there is a difference between not only asking for a sign, but asking for it in a way that we're prepared, open, and ready to receive that sign or that push in the right direction from God. If it's just like some random act that is, you know, a one-time, off thing, it really is not going make any difference in our lives. And I've had some amazing miracles happen in my life and believe it or not, it really didn't push me to the priesthood. It set me in the right direction. But again, I think we can sometimes test God. And we think that, well, if God just says this, or if God does this, well, then I know God is asking me to be a priest, or God's asking me to get married or God's asking me to be single. And it's never going to be enough.

Fr. Craig (13:27):
We're always going to ask for more signs. And I did that myself over and over and over again. I think one of the ways in which I did with God is, I'm a Hunter. You know, we don't have land up north but we would go up every year for bow hunting and you know, we're not good hunters and we never get a deer ever. I think only two of us have gotten a deer, and it was my nephew who got a deer one year while he was playing his video game, he saw a deer put his video game down, shot the deer, and started playing his video game again. It was like, he didn't even tell anybody that he got the deer, it was like no big thing. I'm like, we've been doing this for 30 years and you finally get one.

Fr. Craig (14:04):
So one year, you know, I said to God, if I get a deer, then I'll become a priest. I was like, almost tempting God. Like, I wanted a deer, so just like, God if you give me a deer, I'll become a priest. Well, here I am walking the forest. I didn't even have a bow and arrow in my hand, I had my Bible in my hand, how am I going to get a deer that way? You know? But still I hunted a couple of days and I got no deer. And I'm like, see God, you didn't listen to me, blah, blah, blah. But a couple of weeks later, which is amazing thing because my boss at the time never did anything like this. He went up north himself and when he came back, he brought a gift for all of the employees. And strangely enough, guess what he brought back. A little silver paperweight that was in the shape of a deer. And God's like, well, you got your deer. I'm like, that's not what I meant.

Fr. David (14:53):
Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Craig (14:54):
Even in this testing of God, God still showed me a little bit and I got a great story out of it.

Fr. David (15:01):
That is awesome. No, but it got you dear. Yeah.

Fr. Craig (15:03):
I didn't call up the vocation director and the next day, and be like, "I want to apply to the seminary," there was a lot more that needed to be done. And there was a lot more discernment, you know, to be done. Did you ever have anything like that? Did you ever kind of test God in that way?

Fr. David (15:18):
Yeah, you know, there were definitely times that I was putting God to the test and maybe not in the best way, maybe not in the most faithful way I did. I think I can, I can remember a few times of just doing almost — you'd almost say silly stuff like that, but you sometimes just get it in your head, like you want that certitude. And so you'll say, "All right, Lord, you know, if you want me to be a priest, you've got to do X, Y, or Z. You've got to get me this job." I did that once with just a construction job that I was looking at "Lord, you know, if I get this, I'll take that as a sign, as a priest." It sounds weird. You know, it sounds odd. It sounds random, but, you know, you do that sometimes and you put God to the test. I actually ended up getting the job as well. So it was — and I also didn't apply to seminary after that, but—

Fr. Craig (16:10):
It's funny God still answers some of those you know, tests. I think there's more that needs to be done. And I think that's the difference, again, between Zachariah and Mary, that Mary was prepared and waiting and ready. And when we discern, we have to be waiting and ready and preparing by doing a lot of different things within our lives. So that when God does call us, we know his voice, we understand the master who is calling us so that when he calls us, he says, follow me. We can go ahead and follow him.

Fr. David (16:40):
That's right. You have to, you have to be like used to being a disciple used to following Jesus. And then when that call comes, you're, you'll be open and able to receive it.

Fr. Craig (16:48):
Yeah. And if you really think about the nature of signs, signs are not meant to describe what's supposed to happen, really. They're just guideposts. They're just telling you to do something or not to do something, they're not explaining why. So like think of a street sign, it says, you know, you come to a street and it says "stop" and you stop. Right? We don't know why we're stopping at that particular moment. The sign doesn't say "stop or you might hit another car, get into a big lawsuit, lose your license, then you have to work at home and then you fix your marriage and then all of a sudden you find a new job and now your whole life is laid out before you" right? No, it just says "stop". And I think sometimes when the Lord does talk to us and give us you know, the push in the right direction or a light to the lamp for us to take the next step, that it's sometimes not really up to us to say, well, why, why?

Fr. Craig (17:37):
You know? And sometimes we need to trust, and of course we need to ask those questions but not to test God of saying, you know, "You need to explain to me everything." Sometimes we can't receive everything at one moment. If God said, you know, "You are going to become a priest and you're going to do this, and you're going to do this, and this thing's going to happen to you in your lif, and then you're going to go through a hard time and then you're going to go through a happy time. And then you're going to have, you know, this is going to happen." You might say no, because there's no way that you could say yes to your whole life. And it's funny too, I think sometimes, you know, when we want to know our vocation, that we need to know it immediately, but what we need to do is really to get into a relationship with God. Yes. And start talking about those things. I mean, think about it like dating, right? If you go out on a first date with a woman, you know, if you start talking about how many kids you want and where you're going to get married and where you're going to buy your house, she's going to get scared. [laughs]

Fr. David (18:34):
Yup.

Fr. Craig (18:36):
You know? So, I mean, if we start discerning the priesthood, you know, think of that discernment process or even like the first year in the seminary like dating, I mean, it's a relationship. You're in a sense dating the Church as well, because you know, they're discerning whether or not you have a call as well. So I think there is a right way to receive guidance and, and ask for signs, but I think it has to be couched in prayer all the time. You know, for me that year that I took of building a new body of artwork to apply to graduate school was just a very holy time for my life. I was going to daily Mass. I was praying the rosary every single day. I was praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet. I was on top of that reading holy books, reading the Lives of the Saints, reading really good Christian authors. My whole life was like swimming in discernment so that when God did start to talk to me I was able to hear what God needed to say. What were you doing before you asked for an application, like, what was your life like?

Fr. David (19:42):
Before I asked for an application? Well, I was, I was a senior in high school. But I was also — so I did that and I was working in the summers, construction in a hay farm. But, but I also, I did, I definitely had that prayer life that I at least tried to commit to. The guy I was working for was he was a good Catholic and we would actually, we would both go to Mass in the morning, daily Mass, before we went off to work. And that was awesome. 'Cause it was never an issue. It was never hard to get there. So I mean, that was like, the start of the day. And it was kind of that moment in the morning where you just, you came to God and gave him the day.

Fr. David (20:23):
I also, we prayed a rosary as a family and that was pretty consistent. Other than that, I didn't do a whole lot of spiritual reading per se, but I was trying to read the Bible for 10 to 15 minutes a day and just starting with the Gospels, you know, in the New Testament. And that was impactful for me. Just, I think it taught me how to listen to God in a new way. Right? Sometimes you talk about prayer. It's not just talking, it's listening to God. And I think that happens nowhere more powerfully than when we literally dive into his Word. Right? We listen to his Word. And so, so I think, I think you're absolutely right, if we want to discern, we've got to just get in that habit of following Jesus of listening and being ready to actually do what he asks us to do.

Fr. Craig (21:14):
Yeah. What is the quote from Saint Jerome again? I think, you know that quote,

Fr. David (21:17):
Oh yeah. He's got, "Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ."

Fr. Craig (21:20):
Yeah. Right? Yeah. I mean, how are we going to know the master's voice if we don't know what he did and what he said and how he called his disciples. Those are some amazing stories, you know, the calling of Matthew, the calling of James and John, the calling of Peter, Andrew, all of those guys, it's, you know — those are things that we could be praying with to understand how he called them, that he could be calling us in the same way as well.

Fr. David (21:46):
Well you know my Confirmation saint, Fr. Craig, is St. Matthew.

Fr. Craig (21:49):
Is it really?

Fr. David (21:50):
And I actually chose that saint because of his call story. It's like the shortest, simplest call story you ever saw in the Bible. It's "Jesus says, 'Come follow me.' He got up and followed him." And I certainly don't do that in my life always, but that's the goal, right. To be able to just get up, leave everything and follow him the moment he asks.

Fr. Craig (22:10):
Yeah. Sometimes we slack off, though, and we kind of drag our feet and—.

Fr. David (22:14):
Wrestle with God a little, you know?

Fr. Craig (22:16):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, my patron saint is Anthony because that's my middle name, Anthony. That's your middle name too?

Fr. David (22:23):
That's my middle name! Yeah. Right.

Fr. Craig (22:25):
[laughs] Small world. Small world. Right.

Fr. David (22:28):
He's a good patron saint, if you're always losing stuff, you know?

Fr. Craig (22:30):
Yeah. All the time, losing my mind all the time. So I think there are many signs that do happen every single day that we choose to ignore. Or they're not as impactful to us because we're looking for some major event to happen, some great sign or some angel to appear to us or God to give us a hundred percent certitude. And we miss these little signs that, often, when guys are called to the priesthood will happen to them, if you talk to really any priest. And I think one of those first signs is that other people will tell you that you will make a great priest. And this would anger me really badly.

Fr. David (23:12):
Those little old ladies after Mass, right?

Fr. Craig (23:14):
Right. And like the only reason why you're telling me this right now is because I'm the only guy under 50 years old at daily Mass right now. Right? That's the only reason why.

Fr. David (23:24):
So true.

Fr. Craig (23:24):
But then again, why am I the only one under 50 years old at daily Mass? So, you know, listen to the people. I think they have a sense of whether or not, you know, you have a calling. I would even talk to my mom and she would say I would become a priest. And I get so angry with her. I'd be talking about like, I need a new car, I can't take out a girl in my car because all these electrical wires are falling out of the glove compartment, I'm going to electrocute her, you know, or whatever. And she's like, "It doesn't matter. You're going to be a priest." And I'm like, stop telling me that. She was really bold.

Fr. David (23:58):
Yeah. Sometimes I got annoyed too, when people would keep saying it, right? Because especially like, there was a certain point in my life where I kind of thought God was calling me, but I did not want to hear it. You know? And those little signs, actually, they kind of annoyed me. Right? I was like, "Stop saying that, no, that's not how it is. I don't want it to be that way." But they're real. Right? And I think you're right, that it's not going to be like, you know, one day you're walking in the street and the heavens open and you hear this booming voice from the clouds, you know, "Be a priest," you know. Sometimes we're waiting for that. Right. But that's not often how God speaks.

Fr. Craig (24:35):
I'd like to argue too, that even if that did happen, I don't know if necessarily you would follow it. I wouldn't follow it. Right.

Fr. David (24:41):
You might go see a psychologist or something. [laughs]

Fr. Craig (24:43):
I mean, you certainly will question it. Right? You know, I've had some amazing things happen in my life and it didn't seal the deal for me. I mean, it took me like three to four, maybe even five years in the seminary to really, truly believe that I was called to the priesthood. It was right before I was ordained a transitional deacon and it was sort of like, I've been doing this, you know, the last six years and I've been discerning, I think this is the right way to go. You know, like, God strike me dead if you don't want me to be a priest, but you know, moved on and God answered that call. Or I answered that call that God was offering me. It was funny though, like here we are asking for all these signs and God is giving us signs, we just have to have our eyes opened to it.

Fr. Craig (25:28):
That's what I mean by swimming in discernment. That you're doing all of these holy things 'cause you're looking for an answer from God. I mean, people all the time would talk about me being a priest and people would call me "Father" and I wasn't even a seminarian yet. Like I would help an old lady in church or light a candle for something, and she'd be like, "Thank you, Father." Where did that come from? I'd be in the grocery store and help someone get something off the top shelf because I could climb it or whatever, and the lady would be like, "Thank you, Father." And I'm like, I just have a black shirt on, I don't have a collar on, why are you calling me "Father?"

Fr. David (26:06):
And did you, would you — I mean, did that help convince you? Does that make you think more?

Fr. Craig (26:12):
Yeah, I think when I look back on it now that all of those different people were just a confirmation over and over. Maybe if it was just one person, it wouldn't have that much effect, but a lot of people kept on saying this. I remember one time I went out to California for my friend's wedding and it was beautiful. And the next day after the wedding, I was at the weekend Mass, it was a Sunday, and we prayed Mass and I knelt down to give my Thanksgiving, and the little lady in front of me just wanted to talk to me and I'm like, "Okay God, I won't pray right now. I'll just listen to this lady." And she kept on talking and talking and talking and talking and talking, giving me the 20 questions here or there. And and then she, she reared up, she smiled and she says, "You know what you should do?"

Fr. Craig (26:59):
And I thought, here it comes. I know exactly what she's going to say. She goes, "You should join the Navy." [laughs] I'm like, absolutely not, lady. That's crazy. I didn't say that to her. But it was just like, you know, if someone's going to give you the wrong direction, you know, that that's not the right direction. But believe it or not, I mean, actually the military really needs chaplains, especially Catholic chaplains. I was lucky enough to do a little bit of, when I was a transitional deacon, I was at a parish where the priest was a chaplain in the Marines for over 30 years, and the stories that he had and the things that he did, you know, being airlifted from you know, one boat to the next boat to the next boat to say Mass on Christmas day, it was really amazing.

Fr. Craig (27:44):
So, and they have different programs as well, sort of like ROTC, but for seminarians that, you know, they'll help you with, not only if you do have to pay some money and stuff like that, and you do some training that you know, military chaplains are highly sought after because there are so few of them, especially Catholic ones. But yeah, that lady didn't change my mind. So if you're listening and you know, you already know your vocation and you want to help out with the vocation crisis in a sense, let men know that they would make a good priest. You're not going to ruin their life if you say something. Because if you say something wrong, they're just not going to listen to you anyways. And we're going to listen mostly to the people we trust, you know, 'cause everybody's got their own opinion. But it was good that, you know, people told me all the time that you would — I would make a good priest. Did that happen to you, too, Fr. David?

Fr. David (28:37):
All the time. All the time. Many, many, many people told me, "Oh, you should be a priest. You should be a priest." And like you said, some of them, you just kind of shrug off. It's the ones who you really trust that that it makes a bigger impact. I remember once it was, I was just talking to the priest at this little daily Mass chapel we used to serve at, he was this older Italian priest, we always got along really well. He kind of taught me how to serve and all this. And one day we're just talking after Mass, he just points up to the altar, he goes, "One day you'll be up there taking my place," you know? And then that was it, you know? And then we just kept talking about other things, but that comment really, it stuck with me and it was like, yeah, I could, I could do that. You know? And he thinks I could do that. And he's someone I really trust. So,

Fr. Craig (29:25):
And it was from the right person too, right?

Fr. David (29:28):
Yep. No, I think, I think you're right on there with — just if you see a young man who you think would make a good priest, don't be afraid to just, you know, mention it. That can be, you could become one of those little signs along the way. Yeah.

Fr. Craig (29:43):
And I think in a sense as well you know, you share in the graces that he does as a priest, you know, because he hears confessions and all the things you share on those graces, in a sense. It's like Saint Terese of Lisieux, you know? Like, she's the patron saint of missionaries, but never went anywhere. Because she was praying for missionaries, she shared in those graces. And if, you know, you have the ability to encourage a man to become a priest, I think you really kind of share in the graces that he does his whole life. It's amazing, I have a prayer group that prays for me. They've been praying for me ever since I was a wayward child, but when I started back in 14, just so that I would live and come back to God.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
And they've been praying for me ever since. And what's really beautiful — you know, most of the time a priest will buy his own chalice, and I found a chalice, it was, it was kind of plain you know, a little bit cheaper in a sense. It wasn't just, you know, $6,000 chalice that you buy from the catalog or anything like that. Yeah, they are expensive, but I know my mom has some jewelry and I just said, "Hey mom, can you give me like one of your diamonds to put on my chalice?" And she was actually going to the prayer group and she looked at me and she goes, "I'm going to ask all the ladies for whatever jewels they have to give to you to put on your chalice." I'm like, "Don't, mom, don't do that." And she did anyways. And I have over like 25 different jewels on my chalice. So that every time I pray Mass and I lift that chalice up, I'm lifting up all of those women who prayed for me when I was far away from God when, I didn't know him, when I could have ruined my life, my eternal life. And I think they all share in the graces of every Mass that I pray, because if it wasn't for them, I don't think I'd be where I am now. You know?

Fr. David (31:32):
That's beautiful. That's absolutely beautiful.

Fr. Craig (31:35):
Father David, do you have anybody praying for you? Like, daily?

Fr. David (31:38):
I do. And my mom's right up at the top of that list. Yeah. She prays for me everyday, rain or shine. There's also, I don't know if you've ever had this experience, Fr. Craig, but you'll be at a parish, you know, doing something as a seminarian and somebody will come up to you and say, "I have a picture of you on my fridge, and I pray for you every day." You ever, ever have that happen?

Fr. Craig (32:03):
Yeah, I have. Yeah.

Fr. David (32:04):
Yeah. Yeah. So the first time it takes you back, you're like, "You have a — I've never seen you in my life and you have a picture of me on your fridge?" But what some parishes do, and this is an awesome thing: they take the pictures of the seminarians and they give them out, and you just pray for that seminarian, for the year or even longer for some. And prayer is so powerful. It's so essential, not just for seminarians, but for vocations, you know? I know, Father Craig, you've been you've been kind of promoting, doing the Luminous mysteries every Thursday for vocations. So if any of our listeners out there are looking for ways to support vocations. That can be a great place to start.

Fr. Craig (32:44):
I'm praying an extra rosary every single day of the Luminous mysteries for priestly vocations here in the Archdiocese of Detroit. If you want to help out with vocations, please pray the Luminous mysteries for priestly vocations here in the Archdiocese of Detroit. If you go to our website and you can actually sign up formally to be a prayer warrior to be doing that. Maybe in the future, if we get enough people and we get more swag, I can send coffee mugs or something out to people. Well, to go back to signs. I think another thing that is often overlooked is that you're just attracted to the Church. You're attracted to being in the church and, and to be doing the things that a priest might be doing or, or an altar server. So like I kept on fighting this, this call to the priesthood, but yet I loved serving.

Fr. Craig (33:32):
I didn't start serving at the altar until I was like 23 years old, you know, and I had 10-year-olds telling me what to do, because I didn't know what to do at the time. But, you know, I quickly like ran up the ranks because of my age and everything like that. And I got to be a part of the Mass in that way. And something about that really changed the way I viewed things, because I felt like this is what I'm called to do. I enjoy Mass so much. I love the ritual. I love the rite. I love the process I love, especially like the incense and all the cool things that we have within our Church. And, and it felt right. It was like, well, yeah, you know, like if you're called to be a priest, you're not meant to be sitting out in the pews. You're meant to be doing something at Mass. And it really made a huge difference. And even with the CARA reports, which is you know, a reporting agency that you know, does statistics and things like that. I think it's like over 80% of all priests have been an altar server before. So it really had an impact in their lives. Were you an altar server?

Fr. David (34:32):
I was. I was an altar server. Yeah. For a long time in my life, since I was pretty young. And I — similar experience, I loved altar serving. I loved, especially as a little kid, just being that close to what was going on. I certainly paid attention more. I knew the Mass better as a server. You know, I, like you, loved doing the incense, although at our church, it was, you couldn't just do the — you couldn't just walk in and do the incense. You had to work up to it, you know? Yeah. It was one of those things where like only the best of the best, you know? So if you got to do the incense, especially like during Holy Week, you knew you were, you were right up there at the top, you know? And — but there, there was something about just kind of the action of the liturgy, knowing a little bit, maybe not a full understanding, but at least knowing something of like, what's going on here is so important.

Fr. David (35:21):
This is Jesus, this is holy. And I get to be that close. And more than that, I get to be like a part of it. There was something that always drew me to that. And I can even remember one time serving and just see it, seeing the priest holding up the host, you know, for the consecration and thinking like, "I want to do that." Like I could do that. Yeah. So yeah, I think absolutely if you're — that draw to the liturgy, to the Eucharist can, can certainly be a sign of maybe a potential call to the priesthood.

Fr. Craig (35:52):
Yeah. I mean, if you love being in the church and you love serving the people of God, whether it be a lector or extraordinary Eucharistic minister or an altar server, I mean, these are good signs that, hey, you might be called, you have this gift of service and God will use that. You know, again, it's funny how I kept on fighting being a priest, but yet I was still going to church every single day and I really loved serving and all of the different, special things that I got to, you know, learn how to use the missal and how to turn the pages and things like that. And I was like, this is cool. You know, like it really — I think it was a sign that was overlooked. I mean, I don't recognize it until now. Right? When we look back on how God moved us along.

Fr. Craig (36:33):
Yeah. Hindsight. It was amazing time for me. And I learned so much and it was a beautiful sign just to think, hey, you know, people are saying I would make a good priest. I love being in the church. I love the liturgy. Why not? Right? Why not? And God could give us big signs as well, I'll share a story with you. But remember, like, this sign took over a year to happen. And it was couched again within daily Mass, rosary, and really trying to figure out what God was calling me to do. And it was an amazing sign. So when I was applying for graduate school for art I moved into a small little flat in Hamtramck and I didn't bring a TV or anything like that. So I just started reading and I would pray a lot in my bed. And on the opposite wall of my bed, there was the image of the Immaculate Heart and Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ. I think most people know that picture with the blue and you know, yeah. So as I was sitting there and I just would stare at the Blessed Mother, I thought I saw her lips move.

Fr. David (37:38):
Huh.

Fr. Craig (37:39):
And it scared me at first, my heart started racing. And so I got up like on all fours, at the edge of the bed looking, 'cause I didn't want to get too close. And I still saw her lips moving. And I'm like, this is crazy. But I didn't want to get closer, 'cause I didn't want it to be like a shadow thing or, you know, it was just low light that I'm just imagining. But something inside of me said, hey, listen to what she's saying. So I started to listen and all I got over and over and over and over again: five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five, the number five over and over and over again. Yeah. I didn't know what that meant. And every day I saw this picture and every day I kept on getting five, five, five.

Fr. Craig (38:22):
So this became my search, right? Like page 55 in the Bible, Psalm 55, Matthew, 5:55, whatever had a five in it. I was just hungry to understand what that meant. And it never came about like, I never knew within like eight months what this five, five, five, but you know, I was looking at religious orders at the time and I was looking at Sacred Heart and part of me wanted to go away, because I like traveling and stuff like that. So Sacred Heart was not necessarily my first choice, at least at that particular time. Not because I didn't think it wasn't good, I just, I wanted to possibly travel the world and things like that. So like I have to go to France or something for it to be really cool. But I decided to go on a discernment weekend over at Sacred Heart.

Fr. Craig (39:10):
And I had all these conditions. I'm like, Lord, don't make me be in a room with another guy. I don't want to share a room. The food must be good. You don't know. Yeah, exactly. Right. And so I get there, right? And my name is below another guy's name. I'm like, Lord, what are you doing? I told you didn't want to be with another guy. And it was funny. We started talking and we kept on talking about signs, over and over. Like, I think we're called, just, God would give us a sign. All we want is a sign, Lord, give us a sign. So at that time they were figuring out what to do. Part of the programming was like, well, you know, see the seminarians, have fun, go watch a basketball game of the seminarians playing the priests or something like that.

Fr. Craig (39:50):
And I'm like, why do I want to watch seminarians play basketball? This is the dumbest thing to do on a discernment weekend. I don't even get to play basketball. I have to watch the seminarians play basketball. So, you know, the rebel in me said I'm not going, I'm just going to sit here or whatever. But after a half hour, I thought better. I go, don't be that guy, go downstairs and at least check it out and stuff like that. And, and it's fun. You know, they were having fun and they had a pizza party after and all that. But at the moment I was not happy and I was just sitting there on the bench. And I just had my hand in my head and I just kept on saying over and over "Lord, why am I here, Lord? Why do you have me here? This is crazy. Lord. Why am I here?"

Fr. Craig (40:31):
And at that moment, you heard this big [buzzer sound], which was the scoreboard. Yeah. And a scoreboard is what a sign, right? Yeah. It was 55 to 55, with five minutes and 55 seconds left in the game.

Fr. David (40:37):
Wow.

Fr. Craig (40:37):
Five, five, five, five, five, five, five, five.

Fr. David (40:37):
Oh my goodness.

Fr. Craig (40:37):
So I went to the chapel and prayed. I go, "Okay, Lord, I hear, I hear you," you know? Yeah. But that didn't change my mind, like I needed to become a priest at that moment, but it was definitely — gave me the light and the ability to say, you know what, I should be serving in my hometown, Detroit, and Sacred Heart is a wonderful seminary. And it gave me the courage to apply. It didn't confirm the fact that I was supposed to be a priest. It just gave me a courage, you know, really to apply.

Fr. Craig (41:25):
And it was interesting. I've told this story many of times and one person from the military came up to me and said, "Do you know, like when you're on the phone in the military and you keep on pressing the number five over and over again, it means 'I heard you loud and clear.' Like a confirmation that I got the message." And it just keeps on getting better and better every year when I tell this story. So I just, it was kind of cool to have a sign like that. And it wasn't like I was testing God or anything. This was all done by the Lord, really. So I share that sign with you because God can do amazing things, but normally God works in the everyday, normal things of life. And that we shouldn't be waiting for some major sign to happen or some angel to come to us. It can happen. But even if it did happen, it wouldn't necessarily confirm that that's where you're called. Right? Right. Have you had anything like that, Fr. David? I know I'm a little bit strange when it comes to stuff like that. [laughs]

Fr. David (42:23):
[laughs] I've never had anything that big, you know I've never had anything. No, it's been more, I think, subtle signs or even like just thoughts coming to me. And I'm like, "Where did that come from?" That kind of thing.

Fr. Craig (42:36):
Didn't you have a really hard time figuring out whether or not you want it to be a diocesan priest compared to a religious order?

Fr. David (42:42):
I did. I did actually. That was — and I was definitely looking for a sign there, 'cause, you know, when I got to senior in high school, I was pretty certain. At a certain point, you know, after the silent retreat I'd went on, I was pretty sure, like, you know, God's calling me to be a priest and now I'm okay doing it. And I'm like, yes, I kind of got to that point where Mary was to say, you know, "Yes, Lord, be it done unto me, according to your word." But then I was, I was very confused about well, should I be a diocesan priest or an order priest? And I had known some order priests from around some from the Miles Christi, others from a small order that was out at my home parish there, Grotto, some Dominicans.

Fr. David (43:25):
So I was looking into several different orders. I went and spent time with them and such, and I was praying for a sign. I was asking God, like, you know, you got to show me which way. You know, I went on some discernment weekends at Sacred Heart Seminary. I was very confused because I was like, well, I'm very sure now, like, Lord, you're calling me towards the priesthood. But I don't know which way to go. And I actually, I would say I didn't get a clear sign in that instance. Something about Sacred Heart and being there, it felt right. Yeah. You know, I felt at peace there and more of just a sense of like, like I could do this, you know, I saw the seminarians, I could do this. And there was also kind of the factor of like, I wasn't so much attracted to a particular charism of an order.

Fr. David (44:15):
I was more of just I was attracted to really great and holy priests in the orders. Yeah. You know, and their example. Yeah. And so I didn't have a sign. I didn't have clarity. I just, or absolute clarity, I just applied to Sacred Heart. And I said, Lord, you know, if I'm in the wrong place, you need to put up a brick wall that I will run into. And then I'll know that this is not what you called me to. And so I guess the lack of a sign there was something of a sign.

Fr. Craig (44:46):
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah. You trusted God without having to have a sign in a sense, you know, but I think the sign there was that you felt at peace, you could see yourself being there. And that had a big impact on me, too. Like my parish priest at the time, I always went to noon Mass because I like to sleep in — I would sleep in 'til three o'clock every day if I could. I love sleep.

Fr. David (45:05):
See we're opposite. I'm a morning person.

Fr. Craig (45:09):
No, not me. I'm a night person. Yeah I go to bed, like if, on my day off, sometimes I stay up until three o'clock in the morning, but I can sleep whenever I want to! [laughs]

Fr. Craig (45:20):
But, he would have noon Mass. I would go to the noon Mass. And then since he was from Europe, the major meal was in the afternoon. So you always had like 10 people around the table and some of them would be priests and some of them would be seminarians. And just to see that was an amazing thing to be like, "Oh, these guys are normal," or 'That guy's funny." You know, like he told that joke. I can't believe he told that joke that guy's being a jerk right now. Can a priest be a jerk? He's a jerk. [laughs]

Fr. Craig (45:48):
You know? So I got to see the reality of it and it was really good. And just to put in a plug, too, you know, we started a discernment group and we've already met two times and we had some other people show up the second time as well. And if you want to show up, just call the Vocation Office, we're going to do them monthly, but it was great. The start of the second meeting is that we didn't even start until a half hour later than when we were supposed to start, because guys were just talking and it's good to see other men who are thinking the same thing. And especially, when you get to the seminary, to be in an environment where like a hundred other guys want the same thing that you want. Yeah. It's awesome. It's awesome. And just, I think just before we wrap this up here, just to mention that, you know, God is helping us to discern, but to remember that the Church is discerning as well, you know, so you're not alone in it.

Fr. Craig (46:38):
It's a relationship first and foremost with God, but then you have a relationship with the Church. So that first year, second year, third year in the seminary is really about discernment. You know, it's a time to figure out if this is what God is calling you to do. The Church is figuring that out. Again, it's like that first date. You don't have it all figured out on the first day. So to know that even if you go to the seminary for a year and leave that it's not a waste of time and that you grow exponentially in just human formation, and it's a great school intellectually, you learn how to pray better. You form yourself into a better person. And all the people that I know who have been in the seminary and left are better off. They say they're better off having been in the seminary, whether it be a couple of years or even a lot of years. So when you entered, you entered in right out of high school. So you started College 1. So there were eight years that you had to do at the seminary.

Fr. David (47:34):
That's right. I entered a College 1. I actually, there were 18 men in College 1 that year that entered with me right now three of us are priests. All the rest discerned out or, you know, were asked to take a break and then didn't come back. And I would say every single one of them remembers their time in seminary fondly. Says it made me a better man. If they're married, it made me a better husband, made me a better father, just, just that that time to really grow and be formed as a Christian man. So yeah, absolutely. You do not have to have it all figured out even to take that step of asking for an application, getting into seminary, and even, I don't know, for me, sometimes it was comforting to realize the Church is also discerning and like, if I'm really not called to this, you know, maybe the Church would at some point step in and say that. You know, but the Church keeps confirming each year, yes. We think you're called as well. And so it's not — we never discern alone. Right? There's always other people and even the Church as a whole discerning with us.

Fr. Craig (48:42):
Yeah. And not only that, Sacred Heart is a great seminary and they have wonderful teachers, but they have wonderful formatters as well and wonderful spiritual directors and mentors who are going to walk with you in that process, so it's going to take your discernment and the next level. So remember that, you know, coming to the seminary for the first year is not sealing the deal that you're going to become a priest, but it's going to help you figure out what God is calling for your life. And we'll all be better off for it. You know, because when one person grows in holiness, we all grow in holiness. And when we work together in that regard it's a blessing for the Church. And you can be a blessing just to discern whether or not God is calling you to be a priest. So I think we talked a lot today. Is there anything else that you'd like to mention, Fr. David, before we end our podcast here?

Fr. David (49:29):
I got nothing. I got nothing. I just think — I think what's really key is what we talked about at the beginning is just that attitude that Mary had, you know, of preparing first and being in a spot that you're ready to receive that direction, those signs when they do come.

Fr. Craig (49:45):
Yeah. And if you do question, have a questioning spirit that is more about understanding God's will than denying it, like Zachariah. All of us at one point in our life. Right? So next episode, we hope to have a special guest on, so stay tuned for the next episode of Men of the Hearts. There might be a special guest if everything works out. So I'm excited about that, to have our first guest. And it just, it's great to have this time with you, Fr. David, and to talk about vocations and discernment. I get, something out of it. So hopefully other men will be getting something out of it as well. So know of our prayers for all of you who are listening and who are considering a vocation, the priesthood, trying to find God's will that we're praying for you and we're praying for you daily. That's right. All right. Well, God bless you all.

Fr. David (50:34):
God bless.

Fr. Craig (50:34):
You have been listening to Men of the Hearts, a monthly podcast from the Archdiocese of Detroit Office of Priestly Vocations. To learn more, go to detroitpriestlyvocations.com.