Daniel Welch Welcome to this artistic life. On this podcast we sit down with professional artists of all disciplines to talk about their journeys, what inspires them and their unique perspectives from life off the beaten path Brought to you in part by artists relief tree, a relief fund for artists affected by cancellations due to covid 19. I'm your host, Daniel Welch. Today's guest is Iosif well known for his work in the opera industry is commentator on the Metropolitan Opera broadcasts, reviewer and feature article journalists for opera news, as well as a director lecture and presenter, thank you very much for taking the time to be on the inaugural broadcast of this artistic life. It's wonderful to have you kicking around the show, even though we're dealing with a timezone difference. I really appreciate your flexibility that way, that's Unknown Speaker no drastic measure. Daniel Welch So just as we were literally just discussing, you have a very broad history in in the oppor world and me talking through a recap would do your career kind of a, an injustice. So why don't you give us a recap of kind of a brief overview of how you've ended up where you are now and the many hats you've worn in the past. Ira Siff But it's kind of one big accident, I think. In high school, I befriended a guy who was a bit of what we now call him nerd. And but I found him really interesting and funny. In his name was Robert Ms. Bin Rafi became a doctor. I became a diva. And I think my mother would have preferred the other D word. But But he was his family was into opera. I've been to Broadway shows I grew up in Brooklyn and my parents took me to amazing I mean, Inherit the Wind with Paul Muni, and my first lady and Peter Pan with Mary Martin. I sold this stuff, but never the opera ever. And Robert said we had to go there was this new singer who was a big sensation who was making her debut with the MIT, quote, Joan Sutherland, so we had to go see her. So I went over to his a finished basement in mill base in Brooklyn and we listened to his recording of Lucci with Joan that had just come out and we followed with the libretto I had never heard the word libretto. And we went and got standing room tickets in the upstairs standing room in the old med for $1 25. And that night, changed my life. I was hooked. immediately she was the noises she made were inhumanly amazing. At that point. She was pretty fresh from the Israeli production that made her start Covent Garden. So her theatrical persona was something you would never imagine from later performances. How did the acting was Richard Tucker was he had Cardo and I remember the death scene. Ringing that tone ringing all the way up to the family circle. Oh, my nonmotor Aw, it just was so gorgeous. And yeah, and that was it. And I left poor Robert in the dust. I mean, we kept together but I was going three times a week to stand with my budget would allow, you know, 375 for three tickets, not bad. And I learned a lot of operas. By seeing them I didn't have a budget for recordings. There was no internet, no, no. HD and no no titles. I so sometimes I had no idea what was going on. But like I went to Don Carlo over and over and over. I never really knew the libretto because I couldn't afford a record, you know, was set of Don Carlo. So I just go and I saw everybody I started in 61. So I saw you know, well, the usual lineup fen Nielsen, quote, le perikanan z tibaldi Colby, Tucker reason IQ amazing. As I was at Garrett's debut, bumpers debut, Montserrat's debut, Cheryl's debut, and most important to me, in my later work, Renata Scotto, his debut. And it was and then, of course, there was the kahless comeback in secret but left on the street for two nights, three days. And then we went to the airport, so we could screen when she arrived, and also make sure she arrived because no one can actually come but she canceled. And then when we heard the first I mean when we knew she was there when we heard the first Mario's from off stage in the Tosca and when she came on stage, everybody just lost it just thought we would see her. So you know, that was sort of my history, but I was I was an art. I was a visual artist and throughout school, and I was Boy artists in Madison high school and I graduated and I got into Cooper Union, which if you got into Cooper Union, you get a full scholarship and the competition is so stiff, you just have to take it. And by that time I knew I didn't want to be a visual artist. But I got into Cooper Union. And since it was a full scholarship, I was no longer dependent on my parents for anything much. So I moved to Manhattan and got a part time job and became super of my building. And that way, I could just go to the opera all the time and just squeaked through university really, as soon as I got out, but I started studying voice even a little before I got out and started teaching voice. By the time I was 23. And I left the visual arts thing. And so then just trying to reduce Digest version I was teaching and I wanted to sing and a friend of mine was the boyfriend of Ira Siff a famous Off Broadway composer minister at that time altcar mines, who had all he shows we've done at the Judson poets theatre, Judson church in Washington Square. So I went and sang for owl. And he immediately put me in shows so I was in all the Jetson shows all of our shows from 70 to 75. And sometimes they moved to Off Broadway and I actually performed at Circle in the Square and these other theaters when the shows would move. And then I started to do a cabaret show in which I did a couple more comedy and treatments of singing. And I jazz singing I did Luciano on a talk show, you know, I did Scotto on a talk show, you know, I did, it was all parody stuff. And so I would sing soprano, tenor. And one day one of my fans gave me an invitation to something he was doing the soiree and I went and I could tell from the invitation, this was gonna be two guys in drag doing defense, right. So I went, and it was I levitated during the entire thing. And then he said, Could you you know, do you? I know you have falsetto. Do you want to sing with me? Because my cousin, the other diva is going back to Dominican Republic where he's in med school. So would you like to, you know, form an opera company. So we formed by Grant Shana, and that's how that got started. He named it I brought in the music director Richard Burke, who was the director for my cabaret show. And we held auditions and we rented the Orpheum theatre and we did late night shows at 11 o'clock. Every Friday, we supposed to do four shows in November, and it just kept going. We did 12 of those people would come down from the med City Opera, you know, with a paper bag over their heads to see this cult thing. And it just called on and, you know, Jimmy started to come and lean teen and in German and pray on a mofo you know, Raimi and Cheryl and and they were, that was my door into the legitimate opera world was by putting on a dress and sing soprano. Daniel Welch That's fantastic. I love that. Ira Siff Man. We got him management, and oh, and some of this stuff. I really got most of our bookings to be honest. And when we were with Cammy, we got very little, but I once we would perform somewhere, we would get asked back, always, and it would sometimes catch on like we performed in London. We co produced with the Bloomsbury Theatre in London. And then this guy, Bill burdette Coots, came to see us and then we got to Edinburgh because he was connected to that festival and the bugs Opera House in the Manchester festival and Queens College in Belfast in the Wexford festival. So one thing would lead to another thing. It was Daniel Welch the cameras and there were many people doing anything remotely like this at the time. Ira Siff Well, that was an advantage and a disadvantage. It was. We never made money like, you know, if I had to Trocadero ballet, I'd be a millionaire. But, but it was a disadvantage because opera was still foreign to a lot of people. Whereas with the trox dance has always been very popular in America. And if you have ballet, they assume that all the men in the company who are gay, so there's no homophobia attached to that. But with us, it was people with who we never got booked in the States. We did seasons in New York, which which were, quote, self produced. And then we did San Francisco once got panned in San Francisco. That was kind of heartbreaking and bizarre. We did cago a few times Houston, but mostly no bookings in the state. Because people will say, oh, it'll out me if I book you it will out. Well, it was a really it was question 81 is when we started 81 is when aids started, right? Oh, people were really pushing us away. So we went to Europe worked a lot in Germany, a lot in Holland and the UK, and Australia and South America. Wow. Daniel Welch That's quite a tour for something that just kind of happened by accident. I mean, Ira Siff I figured out some ways to bring in to make it accessible. We invented Sylvia Beals, who was a Beverly Hills hostess, so that we had a running narration. So people who didn't really know opera got the story before they saw the scene or the ARIA and laced with jokes. So for the I mean, before the AIDS crisis really killed a lot of our audience. We could do the smallest, subtlest play on the libretto, in something like in the Tosca Where, where, where, where Tosca says cuando but but in our production Veera is talking about the cost of the wine in dysphonia that he's giving her, you know, she looks at the bottom of the bottle to see how much it cost, you know, and people would just scream, but there was that layer for the the people who really knew their shift. And then was the the more broad layer for people who weren't opera people to try to make it visible. So that worked. And then we had to translate Silvia for foreign countries and do narration in Spanish narration in German narration a little bit in Dutch and Portuguese. So that, you know, we tried to make it catch on and make it work and we just loved doing it. It was hard work. It didn't pay very well, because we'd have to do five or six shows a week singing what I sang Valkyrie, Tosca act to Ride of the Valkyries mad scene from lucida and an encore. And I'd have to do it five or six times in a row, you know. And in theory, I mean, like the talented assistants in Berlin or the or the the Opera House in Brazil or the Opera House in San Paolo, a big houses not might, you know, yeah, very wearing on what was my voice. I mean, it may have been comedic based and very much in that kind of modern Bufo kind of thing. But that's still, that's still challenging rep no Daniel Welch matter what you're doing it with it? Ira Siff Well, in falsetto, it was pretty challenging. And for for the baritones, antennas as well in the Mentos in the company, but it had to be, you know, I was talking to repair to Alexander about he or she lives in in Amsterdam, she would make a great interview, by the way. And she, we were talking about being black and how you had to be better if you were black. And I said we had to be better. And I want to explain, I sort of talked about that with lean team ones that we had to be better. musically. We had to show that it wasn't trashing an art form. But it was an out of adoration that it was as much tribute as a spoof. So that was tricky. We had to really, and that's really what made us I think with and that led to, you know, the fact that that Jim vine would come and then when he went to Tanglewood wanted something to stage direct. asked me to stage direct, cozy. That's why when the Met was looking for, they were auditioning. I didn't know it was an addition but they were having people come into co host broadcasts with market junk. Wait. That's why I got asked really, because of the musical credibility of grant Shana. kind of balanced the putting on a dress and doing pratfalls in Lucci. Daniel Welch I mean, just the names of the people that you rattled off that that became fans of your productions. I mean, huge names and Opera at the time just goes to show that it definitely was a real tribute that they took to heart. And it was a serious thing while being a fun thing. Ira Siff It was for lean teen called it a fun busman's holiday in a in a in a letter she wrote for me it was so sweet, so kind they were all so kind. I mean, that was the thing I couldn't believe even Franco and I couldn't who would turn up in the audience. It was always better if I didn't know. You know, and usually I didn't know they would come back afterwards. The person though I'll tell you the person who made me most nervous is someone you may never have heard of. And that was Charles Ludlum, who had the ridiculous theatrical company in New York City and was the greatest cameo of his generation. And Charlie and I mean, Charles was respected. Dr. Ford Foundation grants Rockefeller grants huge, you know, New York State Council, that that company was brilliant and he died of AIDS and 1987 but he was I did Traviata was the first full scene I did was the last act. And I did, Charles's, Camille really inspired me. And I was more nervous when he came to see the show and I was doing Traviata. Then I was when you know, don't get him or Renata, really it was he was my idol. If you ever can, his stuff wasn't so documented with video because of when he was performing and, and when he died, but there are some videos and he did a very famous well, mystery firm EVAP is his most famous show, and still done by repertory companies all the time. But he did something called galvis, which was a college biopic kind of thing. And he was of course, Maria, and it was, it's brilliant. And I think there's a video of that, Unknown Speaker I will definitely have to hunt that down. Unknown Speaker Amazing. Daniel Welch So though, I started that in in 81. And that wrapped up, when did you say? Well, the last Ira Siff full company performance was at the sale in 2002. And my last solo show, because then the first seven more years, I did the annual farewell recital. And that wrapped up in 2009 at the symphony space. Daniel Welch Gotcha. That's a long run. I mean, the Rockets have been out straight with a company for 21 years. It's no small feat. Ira Siff It was it was Yeah, no, no, it was a lot of work. And by the time I got to the recitals only when it was only the recitals. I love that because I could sing anything I wanted and in any t. So that was that was marvelous because I could sing it Shan song and German lead and Spanish songs even Chinese song and you know, and I loved doing those. But there was a point at which I was in Englewood, I was directing Giovanni for Jim, and, and Hans, my husband had made a video of the three nights that I did in Symphony space, he made an edit of the best versions of everything from three nights to make one, one show that I could stand to look at. And I've watched the video. And it was really interesting, because I had this chat once with Scott doe. And she said, You know, I said, Why, why? Why are you stopping? Why don't you do recitals, you can still do recitals, as you know, she said you will know. And it was so true. As I looked at the DVD, all the shows were sold out, the audience was screaming and loving it. And I was not happy. And I could feel what I was going through to get the crank the falsetto up to where it was still able to go. And I thought, Okay, this is really painful. I really live to perform, but I'm stopping. Yeah. And you know, you just know. Yeah. Daniel Welch And so that puts you into you. I mean, you were teaching this whole time, right. And then but you you kind of you transitioned That and more into the directing aspect of things. Ira Siff Yes, but that was that transition for you. Well, that was an accident. It's really to big coincidence, I'll tell you the whole thing. Um, if I went to see Bob Lombardo, he was he's not his manager. Just because Cammy really didn't do well for grant Shana, I will leave it at that. And so I went to him. And I said, it was 1999. And I said, I think I'm gonna have to stop with your bookings. And I have no work for anybody. And and I know why. Can you could you take us on because you have all these connections, you love? What do Renata loves what we do? Can you do something? And he said, I've never handled a company, I only handle soloists, so no, but I'd really like you to direct and I said, Okay, thank you and left. And then I got a contract in the mail from moto to sign with them as a director. So I put Okay, and then I was in Israel, and one of them dormans programs in Tel Aviv, teaching and coaching and and I get a call from Bob saying, I have a gig for you. Would you be interested to do your first directing gig and I said, whom one what's the opera? And he said Tosca, and I said, Oh, I know Tosca pretty well. Yeah, I've sung the second act 250 times. So I think, yeah, maybe I could try that. But I'm still really nervous about it. I mean, do I know anybody who's in the cast? And he said, I think you know, the Tosca. And I said, Yeah, who was it? He said, I really meelo so I thought it's But I adored her. For me, she was the one who still did what they used to do. And so I did it. But I and I did, I did a lot of productions. But I stopped doing it when I got the Met thing, it was really difficult to leave town. And it was really difficult to devote what I think that time is that you should devote to directing a show and and really researching it and trying things and having 10 fallback plans for everything depending on who your performers are. And there was the issue of I felt like a bit of an anachronism. I didn't want to be forced to do constant things that I didn't want to do. And I didn't want to be at the other end of the spectrum of being just jogged in to do somebody else's production, or some rented thing from tri cities that you know, backdrop with wrinkles. So, you know, I have my own wrinkles, I don't need that. So I, I decided that I would ultimately have it stopped drinking and Bob kept calling and I still feel guilty about it with offers. But it was also really hard. I did a few productions when I was started at the Met on the air and it was impossible to juggle the two things and with the met, I could just stay home and teach and I didn't want to give that up to be traveling from hotel to hotel to hotel. In even though doing productions is so exciting. And and then I got totally spoiled to Tanglewood the ones I did with the vine, you know that you have your own production. They didn't have a huge budget, but I had a beach house built for cozy, you know, you they had fun ins, yeah, it was him conducting. And it was young artists, you know, from a bat level from the Met and, and so forth in Juilliard. So I got kind of spoiled so so I stopped the directing. And now I just coach and work in a few programs in the conservatory in the Netherlands and, and do the the MIT broadcasts and, and write a bit for opera news. And I have two private lecture groups that I lecture on opera, also 20 times a year, but during the pandemic, they wanted to continue on zoom because they're starved for stuffs. I've just done my 34th lecture for them since the POW. A lot of letter writing a lot of playlists that you have to make. Daniel Welch Right, right. I it's funny, I do some I do some consulting work with smaller companies, regional companies, as well as some young arts programs and work with a lot of specifically young artists and emerging artists and we did a lot of stuff via zoom. And it was awkward. But it did feel like there was at least still momentum going and everything wasn't truly just stopped. Ira Siff No that's kept me going I would I don't know what I would be doing with with all the free time we are going to start November 10 I think with meetings and and recordings because we're having a broadcast season a full broadcast season 27 broadcasts even though there's no match opera this year we use we're using archival broadcast but but new chat with with me I can be here I can be in New York. I will be and Mary Jo is in Stamford, Connecticut, and the engineers are geniuses. We did it before when the pandemic first happened. And they make it sound like we're chatting and we are chatting I mean we do we do to it at the same time right now like a Decca recording with Thomas Hampson, the other one two years later. It's actually we really we very simpatico and communication on zoom while we have professional mics in front of us, so we're communicating visually, but we're being recorded professionally. Unknown Speaker Yeah, yeah. Daniel Welch So what was that? I mean, you went from standing in line and standing in the Met standing room in the 60s to being hired by this company that that basically introduced you to everything. What was that transition, like being now being a part of that, like, literally part of the Met family in an employee's type of way? Ira Siff I, to be honest, it's very twofold. Um, it's I'm really an outsider in the sense that I'm a contract player. I'm not an employee. So I'm not I have a contract for each broadcast season. And in that sense, I have a very small family that I'm attached to there. Ellen Keo, who's the senior editor and producer in Mary Jo. Formerly, it was Margaret Margaret and I were like that I still I miss her desperately. She, she's one, she was one of my dearest friends. But, you know, Mary Jo, and I have have developed our version of what we do. Um, and there are a couple of other people, one of them just got furloughed. who were in a very small family that that I'm with there, and I door, really, the mint family, also, Yolanda, who deals with with payments, contracts. I mean, there are people who, I won't mention people who got furloughed. It's a very unfortunate situation. But you know, I'm in Holland, where the government funds the arts very generously, that is not the case, in the States. And so Peter really has no choice. There is no money to pay people all the time when there is no opera. But anyway, that's another issue. Um, I, so I feel very outside in that sense, I go in only a few times a week, and see only the sixth floor and the same people. I bet on them at all the dress rehearsals, and then I see singers that I know, in this, you know, and then I feel like a big part of sort of a bigger family. And I see Peter and you know, and I like that very, very much. I see uneek. But I'm not in the cafeteria, five days a week, you know, Randy, you know, so I'm not I'm very excited. And I gotta say, Daniel, I really like that. I like feeling independent from things in a way and I feel independent from it. I thrilled beyond description to have it a grateful at this time, that they're going to have broadcast. Mm hmm. And I love some of what I see there, and I don't love everything I see there. They never make me say I do if I don't. So I really liked the atmosphere in my little department. But the big opera house I find more intimidating being an insider than I did when I was an outsider, because when you're an outsider, you just go and you criticize everything. Right? When you're 19 you know everything anyway. So yeah, I started 15 and you know, and then it's like, I had nothing but opinions and of course, no experience having to put this stuff on myself. So I had no idea what went into it. I learned a lot also doing features dropping news and going down into the archives. What we call Tuggle Hime because of Robert Tuggle, the archive is downstairs in the basement and researching files and discovering contracts and finding out so much about what goes into doing this and what people had to sign off to do when it was really the kind of company it was in the 50s and early 60s where people would have to they they had to be responsible for like 22 rolls because it wasn't a such a thing. And you didn't have a production that had one cast that you know was done a bunch in the fall. And then it revived in the spring. You had six Tosca 's in one season singing Tosca. And and people just had Mr. Bingley. Just tell them what they were doing later in the year, and they had to be available to do it. So it was it was a different time. But but I do feel intimidated by the house now. I mean, there are 1700 employees. It's enormous. It's, there's so much about it. I'm aware of that. I don't know. And I'm not chummy. I'm not a networker. It's a born to me, I'm not on any social media. So I'm not chummy with singers and go hang out and schmooze in the cafeteria. I keep a bit of distance from it, I really like being part of it. And then like being distant from it at the same time, so it's a it's a weird relationship coming out of being a kid, going to the opera and thinking I knew everything and being there and realizing Daniel Welch I think that distance probably also helps at least with your present position there because then you can, you can comment. And then I wouldn't say critique, but you can comment from a perspective that is not totally wrapped into their day to day culture. But yeah, it's a little bit you know, what's going on, but you're not really truly a part of that day to day. So it allows you to come in from a slightly different perspective. Ira Siff I think so. And also the objectivity is really necessary. And I'm not really there, you know, we always talk about for me, it's very good. Different from a sports cast. We always talk about how sports casters have announcement and commentator at sports casts and this should be like that. But it can't really be. Because I can't say, Wow, that was a lousy be flat, you know the way commentator on a sports thing? Because I really missed that one. So I'm really allowed to say something if I think some someone is extraordinary in terms of the style or the singing, but I don't have to. And I don't say anything negative about before. And you know, I'd like that in a way because people really don't know what goes into this. And it's really easy to say, oh, that cracked. But really, did you get up this morning and discovered that you had post nasal drip, and couldn't really hit that note the way you could the other six days this week? You know, we'll don't know. So I'm very happy not to be dishing it. And I know that there there is such a thing as opera L and all of those, those groups that can be very dishy, about the med and the med broadcast. But they don't really understand what goes into something and how objective it has to be for an audience of 9 million people who don't want to hear you bitch about some soprano you don't like, Daniel Welch right? Well, it's also easy to rip on the top of the pyramid to, you know, it's easy to just look up see the beacon, see the person, the group setting the standards in the country and and laying into them. Because it's an easy target. But you know, I always tell I tell young singers all the time, like you have to get out and see performances that aren't scholastic performances, they aren't in academia, it's not something you did in your Conservatory, like see real performances. And that because because I see people all the time comment on social media about shows, they never saw that they had a friend of a friend who was in the performance, but you know, and so immediately that that carries weight and opinion. Allegedly, oh, yeah, they do it themselves. And Ira Siff now everything also is I mean, I, you know, I said this last night to to my lecture group and I, until I say it, I didn't even realize it, that I learned so many operas by going to see the operas. And it was simply because of being sort of disadvantaged financially but very advantaged to be in New York. So I didn't have a budget the way some kids had for a lot of recordings, you know, whatever. But that but the thing is, it's very easy to tear apart. And that was kind of my job, but in an affectionate way with grant Shana. I mean, I was up there on stage in, in 2009, in Symphony space, and I was teaching the Met and and I and, and some of Peter was sort of newish then and I was talking as Madame Veera about the production of butterfly with a puppet, which I actually love, but at that time, of course, had to make fun of it. And, um, you know, how he was going to hire Kristen Chenoweth to sing Norma because he wanted Broadway performance, you know, get that kind of thing, which I could do as her. Yeah, that was my job then to supply the the kind of Oh, God, I don't know what the commentary on the art form as the the court jester in a way, um, and I could get away with anything I said, I could get away with saying it, because it wasn't me saying it was men feared saying it. But as me now, no, I won't even answer an email. As tempting as it might be, from someone who's who's ripping on somebody, I don't like, because I will not put in print something like that, because this world is not to be trusted for communication in that way. Daniel Welch So many things are taken out of context. You know, we the weird thing that I find about social media, particularly in the arts, when when culture is involved, like national culture, or people groups culture is involved. We assume what I see regularly day to day is that Americans or whomever, a people group will see a different people group, do something specific, and then rip on it because they have no idea where it comes from, or what it means. And so you know, I, I'll speak from the American perspective, I see very often Americans ripping on stuff that's happening in the rest of the world, because it doesn't line up with their day to day understanding, or a perspective that they just have no idea where that comes from. And, and it's really easy to pull a one liner out of something, throw it into a meme, toss it onto Twitter, Instagram, and then it just circulate in this echo chamber of negativity and So I completely understand that perspective. You know, it doesn't that stuff doesn't need to be in print as a professional. And you could just step back and let the other people who are bitter deal with things their way. Ira Siff Yeah, there's a facility to that, that is really childish and, and not sophisticated, he doesn't understand the context of anything. And of course, we have at the top of our country an example of, of such consummate ignorance, that it's kind of suckered a lot of people into feeling that that's okay. You know, that it's wipes and nasty nicknames and, and memes that are ugly, or okay. And they're not. Yeah, Daniel Welch one of the reasons I look forward to this conversation to was that because you've spent so many years in the opera industry, you had a chance to observe both as a as a fan, but then as somebody who's active involved with that upper world that a lot of people consider kind of that second golden age of opera in that middle of the late 20th century. I feel like the opera industry now is really disconnected from where that was in the 60s to the 80s. What are the differences as somebody who was I mean, I obviously can't speak to it personally, because I wasn't there for I didn't wander into the into the upper world until the late 90s. And so I missed all that other stuff. And I didn't see some of these people live and I didn't see these performances, and I didn't get a chance to hear these voices in person, nor see how the industry worked. What are some of the bigger differences that you see between how we do it now? versus then and we all know social medias, that thing? That's a big part of it, but besides that, what are some of those the differences that between then and now? Ira Siff Well, it's hard to divorce the computer from all of it. I'll try Yeah. For me, it's like you know, if there are two jobs I wouldn't want in the world. President knighted states and general manager met it to come in, let's say when when Peter came in, and tried to make friends with technology, and entice a younger audience through Sirius radio streaming, HD transmissions, education productions, nothing is going to bring them in, in the cultural climate that isn't a cultural climate. I mean that right away you have that difference and I'll talk about how it's different in the art form but but I think Daniels difficult to detach one from the other because you take all these jabs at at trying to attract them. Oh, it's going to be it's going to be edgier productions. It's going to be Nico muhly operas. Let's try putting it in the movie theaters. Well, everyone who goes to HD transmissions has it's a sea of blue hair. You know, it's it's it's not young people. Um, yeah, streaming, not young people Sirius radio, all the subscribers I know, are 6078 years old, who listened to two met opera on Sirius radio. So it's difficult to it. Yeah. So art, I think is always a reflection of the times in which it exists. This is very technological era. I do think that one of the problems has been that there aren't new works. And and I don't know what to do about that. Peter is having three next season, which is great. Plus aq, notton and Porky. But, uh, we'll see how that fares with the audience. If you do an edgy production. The old people don't like it. If it's just recycling of a 1950s production over and over and over and over, then people say you're not creative, and it's a museum and it's boring. So it's a tough time with what I hear and feel. I mean, the main difference is sure, it's very obvious to you is, it is now the stage director rules. Now, the stage director rules. It was the time the singer ruled or the singer and the conductor rule. When I first started going, it was that time. And if you have a good stage director like young Zeffirelli, you could have both, you could have that Falstaff you could have Joan's interpretation of Lucci or Carlos and gobies in Tosca, which they brought from Zeffirelli and other houses. So you had singers bringing incredible interpretations that tied to the score and the markings in the score and the language not to the concept of the director. Not to what can I do with this piece to make it interesting Pieces interesting. Philippe Romani was a genius poet. So cinema is not a boring opera. And if you think cinema is a boring opera, don't sing it. And don't make it into a dress rehearsal of cinema. And don't wear clogs and do a dance at the end. If you think it's a boring opera, just do something else. Yeah. You know, so the point of view of respect for the piece, I think, is is a little bit what's missing. Now, I'm not saying that was a golden age because we had disorganized productions. We had people meeting for the first time on stage. We had you know, I like the fact that I could see six tuskers in a season and they were all big names that will make you drool also came with a disorganization in the pre there wasn't one style being performed by everyone. So there wasn't a cohesiveness always. But then again, the fact that the singers and the conductor had to make your exciting evening happen, was a huge factor in making exciting evenings happen. And when Scotto first came out and sang butterflies entrance, this big, fat, juicy Middle Voice and then floated the D flat and diminuendo did, we will levitated I mean, because that was what you always wanted to hear. In butterflies entrance, you wanted to hear someone who's Italian sounded somehow like Japanese, which she could somehow achieve. You wanted to see an interpretation at such intensity that you had to go, I still have a milkshake across the street of the coffee shop after act two so I could get through Act Three, the way she would just make you to sweat and cry. You know, you're on total liquid diet, you take it in, and then it would all come out. Ira Siff In college, I literally gasped. And after some of the line readings of kahless, in in Tosca la Coronado stem Ma, I remember myself, and somebody next to me. So, you know, there were moments of such intensity recently in London in Dutchman and leonese hide beads in the mat, what they sounded like or Nielsen's in Turin dot high B's and C's. And she and Franco having a the kind of war that you couldn't have now because no stage director would put up with that. But the kind of vocal war that karelian Nilsen had was really beyond description. So the aesthetic shifted, I think to make productions better, and make works relevant to our time because they're now old works. And that I think reached a peak at a certain point where it was interesting. And then I remember my Tina Ryo telling me that some production she was in ethical in Hamburg of Macbeth maybe where she thought, okay, I'm not putting up with this anymore where where concept directions what momentum vehicles Kingdom it concept directors, were just went over that line for singers. And now it's so far over that line, that big names who have the power to not do this stuff, do it, because it's what you do. I mean, if Debbie, could be fired from Covent Garden being the wrong weight to fit in the little black dress, then you know that the singers aren't in charge anymore. Yeah. And that's the biggest shift. I think conductors and singers, I think were the source of the production quality. And it's great if you also got wonderful set costumes and a good director. And now it's the production and the concept. And sometimes I think it really clicks and it can be fabulous, like the agrippina at the Met last season. David did a really I think brilliant job and mind what Joyce is great at and everyone else in the cast. There will always be things you like and don't like in a production but something like that, for me is so cohesive, it excuses anything that I would have maybe done differently or wanted to see differently. That's where the stress is now. But when that's not enough to make up for singing, that's not idiomatic. It doesn't come from it doesn't come from a line of tradition. You feel that detachment from the tradition. And that I feel is the big deficiency now for me for my taste. Um, a lot of people don't hear this a lot of the people I lecture do and some don't at all here, but when they hear it when I play them the real thing when they hear Olivero sing Adrianna, they understand why she laya thought she was the best Adrianna. They go oh my god. We don't hear singing like that anymore. Oh, you spoiled us. By playing us this stuff, you know, they get it, if you put that in front of an audience, they're gonna get it. If you don't put it in front of an audience, they'll still like something they see and hear pretty voice and, you know, but to meet that magic, that what a friend of mine quoted, the perfume is missing, too. And that's a shift. I mean, I would leave knowing a lot less than I do now about a libretto or whatever, I would leave a performance at the at the old met just six inches off the ground, you know, just those shorts cups marshaling? Yeah, you know, Daniel Welch I mean, I can remember the really specific performances where I left the the Met or or any other opera opera house and said, This is why I go to the opera, you know, and I can, I can kind of mine. My two hands, you know, and I feel like, I feel like if it's not given to the audience on a regular basis, like you said that your the people that you're lectured to, will say that they feel spoiled when you get, you know, almost almost ruined when you when you play these performances, because if it's not given on a regular basis, people don't know what they're missing. Ira Siff No, it's true that you go and you have a nice evening. Yeah. I've never really had a catharsis over nice. So I know I asked too much, because I want that experience. We all want that experience. And that's why also some opera. People in opera queens get very hyper critical because they hadn't experienced that they expect to be repeated for them while they sit there and their chair and they take money for the ticket. That can always happen, obviously. But I do miss I mean, something like recently in London in Dutchman or Scotto in butterfly or kahless, in Tosca shorts, cups Marshall, and you know, I missed that feeling where you, you think you don't even know the time passed, you're looking at your, at your watch, or, you know, or the train schedule. That's a great neck. But you it's really a so that, to me is the big shift. It's production oriented now, and there's less of the of the perfume really, for me. I don't know what's going to happen with the art form, Daniel, I don't see a big future. for it. I hope I'm wrong. And I think there'll be a lot more small companies and a few big companies, but we'll see. Daniel Welch I'm in agreement with you on that one. I really think that's that's accurate. You know, when you listen for yourself. And it's not it's not work related. It's not something you're gonna comment on what when you listen, truly for your own enjoyment? What do you listen for what really grabs you in a performance or in a specific singer? What do you get wrapped up in? Ira Siff For me, it's, it's the, the commitment, and the exploration, the vocal possibilities. Um, I feel if I know work, it's also how what they do with the markings, what they do with what's on the page. That's why I find kahless to be a genius. It's never there's never an effect for an effect. It's, it's remarkable. I went to all of her master classes because I auditioned for them. And I didn't get in but I got an invitation to audit. So I guess I I was in total disgrace. I think it was a total disgrace, but I got an invitation to audit. So I went to all of them. And, and what she taught was simply to follow what's on the page. When I hear a performance where I feel it's electrified by the score and the text. I get very excited even if the singer is somewhat flawed. If the singer understands technique. I get very thrilled because I had a I had a really great teacher called Randy Michelson who was a belcanto and Baroque expert he passed away about two years ago. He has three lectures on YouTube that are mind blowing Lee brilliant, and he he did all the ornaments for Kobe's rarities albums. He went to Australia on the big tour with Joan and Richard in 1965, where they brought Pavarotti with them for the first time. And Randy was genius and he taught me Garcia vocal technique. And when I hear someone who has an awareness of what a friggin vowel is, and how to turn the voice, and how to trill I get excited because there is also not a plethora of that technical awareness now, when when you hear people who can figure out this shit too. I get very excited Camarena, someone who really yeah, okay, this guy really knows his stuff. kresimir stoian of air Manila Yahoo annamaria Martinez, particular singers who I think are on used it where I work who are just beyond a lot of what I do here. I get very excited if I hear a piano like air Manila's If I hear a Martinez Did you hear you know something like that but she got butterfly at the med as a replacement. when when when Hey Kim was sick with very bad bronchitis and and she was brilliant. Then I get very excited about that kind of thing. And Camarena excites me tremendously. He can talk about techniques and you know, this guy knows what he's doing. And always has I heard him in, in Mexico City friend of mine Luciana conducted in fooding down there and there's this young guys in the Manta, who you can tell, okay, this guy knows how to sing. that excites me a lot, because there's not a whole lot of tech, you see a lot of over darkened middle register, kind of sounds that lead to very spread high notes. I hear a lot of that, and I don't get very excited by that. Yeah, so I will come back. Sometimes I was listening to zinkerz 1946 Gioconda today. And even with all her Slavic mannerisms in the Italian, she knew how to sing. And it's just nice to know. And she knew when she went into chest, just the amount she had to cover the chest. So she could still be exciting with chess, but not rip your throat out. She knew how to flow the piano. So you know, it was I listened to that. Thank God for YouTube, and I get very excited. Daniel Welch Yeah, YouTube is a fantastic asset when it comes to older recordings. Unknown Speaker It's in the singers. Daniel Welch Yeah, because we're never gonna dig through archives the way we once did. I mean, I remember in in grad school, the amount of time that I spent in a library, and then when I did my postgraduate degree, even in that four year change, the amount of time that I spent doing online research versus in house research was totally different. Ira Siff Well, it, I mean, I had to buy a record to your record, you know, and all these young singers have everything at their disposal. And they need to know to go back, they need to know to go back in time, and start from people who worked with the conductors who worked with the composers, you can even hear the composer's conduct, you can, they're there to cover areas, at least to with mascagni conducting. And you can hear Lena Boone razza, who was his favorite Santuzza, in both of them, one live in one in his studio, well, if you're going to do Santuzza, or any 30s mo opera, listen to this, you know, the people, that's what's missing also is just the line back. And I was very lucky, I worked with Renata in her vocal Academy for two summer sessions. And you get to work with somebody who worked with set a fan who worked with these people, you know, who knew the new people who worked with people who knew Puccini and you know, and so the information, the line of information is broken, and the the focus of the art form is shifted. And there's nothing much you can do about that. It is, you know, 2020 and it's not going to be 1920. Daniel Welch Right? Yeah, you know that thing about the composers though is that's a, that's another one of those things that I always tell young singers. And when I was actively singing, I loved working with composers, not only does it give you a ridiculous amount of opportunity, especially if the composer is particularly good. Because if you get that relationship, then they'll be like, oh, we're gonna do this gig over here. I want you to sing this. But it also means that you have the actual composer's point of view for the piece. Like, I know, my girlfriend was just coaching with somebody who coach one of the more recent modern pieces that people know, and I won't get into names and stuff, but that coach who would work very closely with the composer, you know, made a comment about, he cares less about the note here, and more about the counting. Unless you had talked to the composer themselves, how would you ever know that? And so you know, that kind of knowledge, like you said, there's a lineage to that knowledge. That is a direct representation of how it was composed, how it was meant to be performed. And I think that's fascinating. Ira Siff Oh, you know that I think I can't remember the exact statistic but I'm Oliveros saying so many new works that I think it was 33 or 34 of the composer she sang. We're still living when she started to study and sing. And and you know, we don't have that anymore. We're not going to have that anymore, but you can For a line back, and there are so few people like Renato who are still alive who can teach that, or at least open your eyes to it. But we do have the recordings. And the recordings tell a lot. And they really do. And I just find that singers, young singers I work with, I'll be sending them links all the time, because they will not look Pat back past, you know, 1995, you know, for, for anything? Daniel Welch Yeah, it's totally true. So speaking of that, and I know you've got more stuff to do tonight. So we'll wrap this up with this last question. in that, in that mindset, do you have any specific advice for the next generation of not just opera singers, but anybody involved in the industry, that's coming up through the ranks right now. Ira Siff Not specific advice. But I would say, a balanced balance. Balance your marketing, which is now a necessity, with quality, really tried to balance the presentation of what your product is. If you use the word brand, which is so trendy, now, if you use the word brand, you have to understand that your brand encompasses a classical art form that demands a certain quality. And so I really feel that right now, that's a whole other topic. But we try to get into figuring out our brand, and where we're going to fit in the scheme of things because we're quite, you know, if I were young, I just fortunately, I'm not. It's desperate to try to find how you can fit in. If you have incredible quality, and then you make that quality, widely accessible through your marketing, someone's going to notice, but try not to second guess what? A why someone didn't like your why someone else won this thing or, you know, don't focus on other people at all, if you can help it. Yeah, really focus on your own quality, because that that other routine is not productive at all. Daniel Welch I completely agree with that sentiment. I absolutely do. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to kick off this new podcast. I really appreciate it and we'll have to revisit and when you're when you're back in New York and things are relatively normalized. We'll have to have to grab a grab a drink and chat some more for sure. Ira Siff That would be fine. I'm sure we'll have nothing to talk about. Daniel Welch Oh, nothing at all. No, absolutely. Daniel Welch If you're interested in contributing to artists relief tree to help artists struggling with COVID-19 shutdowns, please visit artists relief tree.com This has been an episode of this artistic life. Find us on your favorite podcast apps, and subscribe. Follow this artistic life on Instagram at this artistic life and on Twitter at artistic vitta. For more information on today's guests, visit our website this artistic podcast.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai