EP064 Combating Ageism and Sexism in Ecommerce - Cultivating an Outward Mindset
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[00:00:00] Darin Newbold: All right. Good day and welcome to Commerce Today. My name is Darin and as always, Josh is here and we have, uh, well, I don't know if this was supposed to be about me, but I have a feeling it could go that way. This episode, fun, fun topic.

[00:00:21] Joshua Warren: And when you key up the topic, I mean, that's, that's a little scary there.

[00:00:25] Darin Newbold: I know.

I know. Well, I got to Kind of keep people on their toes as they, as they listen in each and every, uh, each and every week. But this topic is all about combating ageism and sexism in e commerce and, and with the, with the ultimate goal of cultivating an outward mindset. And I know this is something we've worked on a lot.

Personally, professionally, all of the Lees and, and all of that. So I guess, Josh, kind of where are you coming from on this and what's your thoughts? Yeah, so this,

[00:00:56] Joshua Warren: and what's In the past couple of weeks I have had one connection on LinkedIn that I would say is a friend that Posted about basically open, blatant age discrimination from a recruiter, um, in the tech space and then another friend that posted, from a very popular ecommerce conference that many of y'all are recovering from as you listen to us, um, about some experiences with sexism and basically being viewed as less-than because she was just because she was a woman, And both were brave and shared these stories on LinkedIn, and I'm not going to recap them here.

You can read their stories from them. They'll be linked to in the show notes, but it just, as I even shared when I commented on the, post from the conference, um, I thought we were better than this. Like this felt like, Isn't this at least mostly a solved problem? Like I remember talking about this and around ecommerce conferences and ecommerce companies for quite some time.

And it bugs me because, and the reason this, I think is going to be a, a Darin centric episode is, um, Darin introduced me to a concept, um, called the outward mindset, um, or being out of the box as the book originally described it. Um, very early in our relationship working together. And it's so simple, like it's, it's simple, but not easy.

And it's simple in the fact that you view people as people, you treat humans as humans. You don't look at their age. You don't look at their gender. You don't look at anything other than the fact that this is a human being sitting across from me that has their own hopes, dreams, desires, thoughts, feelings, needs.

And it seems like if that's the attitude we could all have in the industry, maybe some of these things wouldn't happen. So, and I might be naive, but that's the conversation that I kind of started with my own LinkedIn post newsletter article. And now we're going to talk about it here on the podcast.

So Darin, what is an outward mindset?

[00:02:52] Darin Newbold: there's a lot to it. But yet there's not. And you're right. At the end of the day, the outward mindset is really seeing a person as, as their own person that they're not. And the distinction is, and maybe even to help define this is maybe start from the antithesis of an inward mindset or in leadership and self deception, which we have a link to here, that kind of the book that at least for me started it off, um, Where it talked about being in the box or out of the box, and it's that inward mindset, and so when you're in the box or when you have that inward mindset, it's very self centered, self focused, and what you're doing, what happens is, is you see people not as people necessarily, but as objects, as just something that's either in the way or that you just need to work through or get through.

And an easy example of this is most everybody has had an opportunity where they have flown on an airplane of some variety. And if you're like me and I'll own this, I was in the box, I will own this. And if you've flown a certain airline that, that where there's no assigned seating, so you just sit down and take that seat.

Well, you often then as you sit down and if you're early to get on, you're hoping nobody's going to sit next to you. And then you'll even do things as put your bag or a newspaper or magazines to kind of let everybody know, Hey, I've got this place. And really all you're saying is, is that I'm important.

This is about me and you all are objects. You mean nothing to And then when somebody does have to come and sit down, you're at, huh, you're huffing puff. And that's kind of that experience of being in inward mindset. And when we, when we don't, and when we look differently at that, in that same airplane example, you're open to, Hey, who sits down next to me?

And that doesn't, that doesn't mean, Hey, you have to talk to everybody. You may not be tired. You don't, it doesn't mean you're this or that. It just means you're seeing that person as a person. And they have their things, they've had a trip, they might be tired, they might be energized. They may just, uh, had some crazy great event happen.

Um,

[00:05:09] Joshua Warren: true. Very true. And again, you know, you've kind of helped me have my own journey with the, um, outward mindset. and as you mentioned, there's, um, there's a book, there's actually three books and we're going to link to those in the show notes.

They're all from a company called the Arbinger Institute that is really promoting this concept. They have a blog article linked to as well, but, really the past five years I've been on my journey of cultivating my own outward mindset within myself and What does that look like? Like if someone's listening to this podcast and says, you know, I don't want to be that jerk on the airplane.

I want to be that nice person. Um, how do I start shifting my mindset towards that outward mindset?

[00:05:48] Darin Newbold: Well it's kind of, as

I started to think about this, uh, prior to the show is how do you do this? And for me, I had an executive coach that kind of helped me walk through this process and, and, and really analyze conversations and interactions that, that I had had, and we'd replay them. And that's a great, great way.

And if you have that perfect, if not, what you really need to do is, is be able to go back and replay and ask yourself the question. Is, was I coming from when I, when I did this, when I took this action and when this result occurred, was I coming from a place that it was about me or where I was, I looking at the person and the situation as if they were a person and that they had their own goals and that it wasn't an object that was in my way.

And the more you can recognize that and the more you have the ability to pause. Because once you can recognize it, that means then you can have the power to pause even in the moment. And then this is a thing where it's a continuum because you're going to go in and out of the, in and out of the mindset.

throughout your day. What your goal is, is a majority of your day is focused on being on the outward 

[00:07:07] Joshua Warren: That makes complete and total sense. And I feel like one thing for me is, um, And especially since I was really starting to practice this at the height of the pandemic, and all my conversations were happening on zoom. I even finally put a little note next to my webcam that just kind of reminds me of like, hey, they're a person too.

And it's so easy, especially if you're in a Zoom call after zoom call after zoom call to think, what do I need to do in this moment to get done with this call and move on to the next call? And then it's so easy to think, this is a person, the person on the other side of the zoom call is an obstacle to finishing this call versus another human being.

so yeah, really just kind of thinking on that, reflecting on that, realizing when you're doing it and just having that intention of, um, yeah. This isn't quite how I want to view other people and shifting your mindset.

[00:07:58] Darin Newbold: Well, and I know some of the things that that we've worked on and we've talked about, and this helps to cultivate and foster that outward mindset in yourself and even in teams is.

being

able to actively listen and when you're listening, that means you're focused on what they're saying, not on what you're going to say next.

And I know for my personality and all the networking I've done, it was very often very focused on, okay, hey, please get done saying whatever you want to say. Cause I have something magical I need to get out. Well, that's not the recipe for, for how to do this. So it's that active listening and then having empathy because what's amazing is, is.

It's in those moments of active listening that you may hear something that could trigger just a simple question to another person that takes that level of that conversation, even the relationship to a whole new level. And it's because a person they finally feel heard. in that moment. And those are some great ways, seeking out diverse perspectives and being open to what those are.

And that can be a challenge. It definitely can. We, this is, as you said at the start, this is a simple concept, but it is not easy.

[00:09:16] Joshua Warren: and even tying it back to kind of.

One of the things that happened that led to this episode thing about that conference and I've been to so many conferences in the industry over the years where there'll be a female colleague with me and I can just see that I don't think usually I don't think that the guys are sitting there going, this is a woman and she's in my way.

But I do think that they're not really doing that active listening. They've already made some assumptions. They're thinking, Oh, you're probably in sales or marketing, or, Oh, you're probably in design. Like you're, you're making some assumptions and then you are already thinking about, okay, this person, then I actually want to meet with people in a technical role.

So this person is an obstacle. I need to figure out how quickly do I get through this obstacle to then get to that technical person I want to talk to. And by having that mindset, whether it's intentional or unintentional, you could actually be looking at and talking to one of the smartest, most technical people in the room and completely miss out on their insights because you're already on to, how do I get through them and on to my next conversation?

[00:10:16] Darin Newbold: And it's,

it's, it's, challenging because

As you've described that scenario, I know and science has told us we have our built in biases and we have our, our built in over years of our lifetime of survival in a way, knowing, you know, the threats and knowing the non threats and so some of that comes into play.

So you do have to kind of take an active role in, in your approach in, in all of those situations and. Where this can, can really help is as you're bringing in teams and, and working with different teams, being able to create that safe environment where they have the ability to share. And, and that's that active listening and being able to share because that takes, it's, it's that trust.

And, um, Brian, no, forget it. I had it and lost it. But anyway, there's a, there's a book all about, all about trust. And, and, and that's what fosters that trust. And it's a foundation of the great relationships that, we all want to have. We need to have, that's how great business, commerce, friendships, all of that occur.

we're 

[00:11:33] Joshua Warren: a lot through the examples of ageism and sexism. There's a lot of isms out there. There's even things that aren't quite to the level of isms. But I think do fall into, um, this same idea. And I think one of the reasons that resonates with me is, um.

I am not the hippie CEO. There's actually a guy out there, Jason Thompson, that runs an analytics agency that I think he even calls himself the hippie CEO. So it doesn't look like the typical, typical CEO, but I too do not like wearing suits and do not always show up as the most well dressed person at an event.

Um, and it's funny in our roles at creativity, even though I am Darin's boss, when we say, or on business travel and checking into a hotel, They seem to usually assume you're in charge because you're wearing the suit. and I've had times where people have kind of underestimated me. They're already in their head thinking this is an obstacle, not a person.

I want to get through this obstacle. This, this guy must be, especially when I was younger. I think it was, this kid must be a gatekeeper. I want to get to talk to the person that can actually make the decision. And sometimes I was laughing inside thinking, I know what you're doing and I don't want to talk to you anyway, because you're selling something I don't want.

But this outward mindset can apply in so many different situations. And those, you know, biases we have built in show up in so many different ways.

[00:12:47] Darin Newbold: It can. It can. And it's one of those where you bring up kind of the, how someone's dressed.

And there's a lot of, A lot of prejudices and and bias that we have towards that and that comes from growing up how we may have grown up and and things we were taught and, uh, You know, I was taught as a, in a young age, my dad was in the military. And so he was always wearing a military uniform or some variety virtually every day.

and so I had a time in the military. And so it's, Hey, that's how you dress. And It does change how people see you, but it shouldn't change overall. It shouldn't change how they ultimately interact. With someone meaning. Okay. Hey, you see someone in a suit and you see someone in shorts and flip flops.

Okay. is it a horrible assumption that 1 might be the CEO and the other 1 might be something else? but having that outward mindset and being able to look at them both and say, well, hey, how can I help either 1 of you? I mean, and coming in from that 

[00:13:53] Joshua Warren: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny how so many of these things come back to curiosity. If you

[00:13:56] Darin Newbold: Yes.

[00:13:57] Joshua Warren: approach people and situations with what can I learn here and just being curious, then you can end up in a much better place.

But

[00:14:03] Darin Newbold: was one thing. Thank you for bringing that up. That was the one thing I wanted to say that out of everything, the easiest or the definitely the simplest and straightforward way to get there is having a curious mind and approaching it with curiosity.

[00:14:20] Joshua Warren: So thinking about teams, thinking about companies, um, kind of blending those two together.

Um, I have seen you do some amazing work with our team. I was actually telling you, and this may be using skipping to the end when we talk about some of the benefits, but, um, My relationship with one of the members of our leadership team is substantially better than it has ever been. And I think in large part, that is the work you've done with him and with me on an outward mindset.

So how do you instill this in teams? How do you work that magic that you've worked with this?

[00:14:51] Darin Newbold: There's there is no magic. in this case, it was really two things. One, this person was actually really didn't didn't know they were in the box.

And that's often when you find somebody and their behaviors are just not in alignment with even how you might know them or what's going on. And those are the ones that are the harder conversations, but you, you do have to kind of take them aside and say, okay, do you realize here's what you said? Here's the baby.

This is what it's causing and help them understand that in that moment, they may still have a challenge with it. I know I did over and over again. And this was the help of a coach to remind me that And it's being able to ask that question. Could they have seen it a different way? Could they have, you know, could the person, you know, could you see that that person could see this a certain way?

And until that light bulb comes on, that's when that moment happens and sharing the book, leadership and self deception was part of that first step was to get them aware and, and. Instead of trying to be the proverbial leader or parent in this case, almost of, Hey, they never know anything, letting a book kind of do the teaching and then be the, the extra for it.

But in the other part of this that has helped is I had to take a step back and realize that I was not being as effective in having an outward mindset with this same person. And so one of the things you learn through the book is that. The inward mindset with one person can cause another person to go inward and then it just cycles and you can just, then you kind of, it's a feeding frenzy between and so one of the things that I had to do a step back and we had a kind of our own reset and even though we'd worked together for three and a half years.

almost four years, we kind of started over and said, let's just start it. We're just meeting. Tell me about your background. And it was in that sharing that it opened up all of those things. And it was a curiosity. It was almost, Hey, we're curious about each other's past history. And once we did that, we suddenly realized, wow, we, we have a lot of similarities where we are quite a bit different in age, but Just because I learned about DOS when DOS was really DOS, and you learned about it from a book in college, you know, all right, no worries, but yeah.

History book. History book, yeah, exactly.

[00:17:19] Joshua Warren: Um,

[00:17:19] Darin Newbold: um,

[00:17:20] Joshua Warren: uh, and you bring up a good point there.

I have seen teams where one person, an inward mindset triggers, another person to go in where it triggers the whole team. And once you get a whole team, all. In that inward mindset. Oh, it is. As you say, that could be a bloodbath. Like

[00:17:36] Darin Newbold: It is. 

[00:17:37] Joshua Warren: So thinking about more of the company level, um, very briefly, um, a lot of that is trying to get your entire company wrapped around this concept. Just like I think people, individuals can get wrapped around being inward or outward. I think companies can too. And to me, outward companies with an outward mindset, you don't see so many silos between departments.

You see more open communication. Um, this is where you're really trying to foster that inclusive environment, seeing everyone as people. Um, and then very quickly in our last couple of minutes, kind of the benefits that we have seen, um, here at creativity and in another work, um, around an outward mindset.

what I've seen even within our leadership team is our problem solving skills, our collaboration, our innovation is just off the charts compared to where it used to be, because it's not about each person as an individual trying to use everybody else to get what they want. It's about really seeing how can we come together as a team and succeed.

And it's made a huge difference.

[00:18:38] Darin Newbold: Yeah, you focus on solutions and results as opposed to focus on, focusing on, I've got a politic for my idea because I want this to come through or I want to be, I want the pat on the or, any of that.

And so With that, having that customer centric approach that, really starts to permeate everybody. And I think it starts with values. And that's something that has really been effective for us is really relooking at our values and making sure that they support everything and

in alignment with that outward mindset. 

[00:19:16] Joshua Warren: we are actually at time. We could talk for another

[00:19:19] Darin Newbold: Yes, we could

[00:19:19] Joshua Warren: this easily. Um, maybe this will be the part of start of a series. Um, uh, again, just want to reiterate, like this is simple, but not easy.

Um, and as I shared in the newsletter article that I put out on LinkedIn about this, this is something we all need to be talking about. Um, not a lot of people have heard about an outward mindset yet. Once you describe it, most people say, Hey, that's actually how I want to behave. So. Please share this episode or that newsletter, um, with your network so that we can encourage more people in our industry to think this way.

Um, also just thank y'all for listening today. You can find us on YouTube as creativity. You can find me on LinkedIn under Joshua Warren, and we will see you next time on commerce today. 

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