Ep. 155. Insights New ways of working
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Audio Length: 		00:37:55	
Audio Quality: 		Good	
Number of Interviewers:		1
Number of Interviewees:		3

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DB:	Welcome to a very special edition of Fintech Insider Insights, my name is David Brear and today we’re recording from, kind of, a really weird venue. So, we’re at the Tavern Stand at Lords Cricket Ground, which, for international audiences, go Google that stuff. It’s definitely one of the most bizarre places that we’ve come to record, but it is beautiful out there guys, isn’t it? We’ve got an impressive space to go. I’ve talked to some of these guys before and, actually, if we maybe start with introducing some of the guests? So, Andy Ellis, RBS, how are you doing?
AE:	I’m good.
DB:	Welcome back, you came back for another go?
AE:	Second time.
DB:	Well, the second time is always a charm, as they say. Alongside him we have Tunde. So, Tunde is a senior partner at McKinsey, and we’ll come into a little bit more about what you do in a little while, how’s it going?
TO:	Very well, thank you, thanks for having me.
DB:	I’ve got a running thing of being terrible at pronouncing second names, so give me a go, how do you pronounce your second name?
TO:	Olanrewaju, but don’t worry, I don’t use it much myself.
DB:	No, I never would’ve got anywhere near.
PR:	He’s like Madonna.
DB:	Is that what it is?
TO:	Tunde, yes.
DB:	Completing our line-up today we have Peter Ryan-Bell, and Peter, you’re the head of large corporates at RBS?
PR: 	That’s right, pleasure to be here, and work closely with Andy, at one of the most large and accomplished corporate banks across the UK and Western Europe.
DB:	Fantastic, so, are any of you guys cricket fans? Is this like a moment we’re having?
AE:	My claim to fame is I did play cricket for county, under elevens, mind you, a long time ago.
DB:	Wow, so you never quite got around to this hallowed ground then?
AE:	I never quite got here, no. Into the stands, but not quite on the pitch.
DB:	So, kicking off, let’s go around the table and just do a little bit of who’s who and what do we do? So, Tunde, do you want to start?
TO:	Yes, sure, so, my name’s Tunde and I lead the digital practice for McKinsey in the UK. I’ve bene with the firm for about sixteen years, most of my time is spent in financial services, and the other part in the public sector.
DB:	Fantastic, Peter?
PR:	I mentioned I run the large corporate proposition for the bank, which is all the large corporates, recognised household names across the UK and Western Europe, and deliver, also, the sector strategy for the bank across various sectors we cover, and deliver that as effectively and efficiently as we can. Trying to always look for the next steps we can do with our customers at the large end, and also filtered down to the smaller customers, as we go through the supply chain.
DB:	Fantastic, lovely radio voice, as well, digging that. Some real interesting complexities in there, as you say, with the big corporates, and we’ll definitely come back to that now. Andy, give everybody a bit of a reminder, what do you do?
AE:	So, I look after strategy and innovation in the commercial and the private bank at RBS, most of my time actually is on the innovation agenda these days, around-, I look after I guess you could call it our ventures, our internal disruptive ideas, as we respond to what’s going on in the external market.
DB:	Fantastic, and today we’re here to talk about new ways of working, and actually new ways of working is something that’s affecting pretty much every element of industry, whether it be the big banks or whether it be the suppliers to those banks, as well, in terms of me and you, Tunde. In terms of actually the types of things that we do with big banks globally, I’m sure. So, actually, I think probably getting into that is how do you guys start to see this framework move? You know, are we starting to see big new ways of working with partners emerging?
TO:	Absolutely, yes. I mean I could probably just jump in. I mean, for us, at McKinsey-, yes, thanks mate. For us, at McKinsey, one of the big departures over the last few years is really changing the base of talent we have. So, within my digital team we now have software developers, we have UX designers, we have product owners and we really try to help clients think about what they’re doing from a strategy perspective and help them build. I think that’s just a realist in the world we’re heading into, you just need a broad set of skills to help people do amazing things.
DB:	How have you gone about that? Because obviously, like you say, talent is finite, right? There’s amazing developers, amazing designers, product people don’t grow on trees, unfortunately, that would be an amazing orchard to go to, but how are you guys attracting that talent in?
TO:	It’s a really great question. So, part of it is we actually went out and acquired some firms, so, as a firm we’ve brought in an analytics firm called Quantum Black, and we’ve also brought some industrial design firms, for instance, Luna, and another one called Veriday. Then, off the back of that, we actually had a lot of people who had these kinds of backgrounds within McKinsey, because we’ve always had a very wide aperture in terms of the kind of people that come and work with us. So, it was actually quite natural to make them the core and get other people excited to work in this new area.
DB:	That’s amazing, Quantum Black, that’s like the sexiest company name I’ve ever heard in my entire life. That’s impressive, what do those guys do?
TO:	So, they do, basically, big data analytics. So, they have a, kind of, formula one heritage, so, their, kind of, chief data scientist used to work for Maclaren and they figured out-, one of the things I found out that’s quite funny is that in sports they’ll basically do anything to win. So, they’ll try anything to get an edge, so, they got lots of people to try out their analytics techniques and race strategy, and then took it into other areas. Then we came knocking.
DB:	Very cool, and have you found, I guess, the dynamic of the people that you’re working with right now? The partnerships model is very much changing, isn’t it? It’s going away from that, here’s a brief “do this thing”, to much more of a relationship, that’s definitely what we’re seeing, but I’m sure you’re seeing very similar.
TO:	Absolutely, I think the whole world is much more open architecture, in every way, right? The way people build tech, the way people build teams, what people need to get done, and we recognise that we’ve been doing it with our clients, and we’re excited by it, frankly. We think it’s all about impact, and we multiply our impact.
DB:	Very good. Peter, how about yourself?
PR:	Yes, I have a very simple mantra when hiring and building the team at the bank, and that’s hire attitude and build skills. It’s working incredibly well, because there are a lot of clever people around, and I think the degrees and the backgrounds are a given, and that attitude is so fundamental. It’s how it fits into what you’re trying to create, how it fits into what you’re trying to deliver, and they all come in with the right attitude and engagement. I build the people I want around three elements, the first is I want them to be connected, connected vertically, into the infrastructures, connected horizontally, into our customers, and connected into the industry bodies that we deal with. I also want them to be curious, intellectually curious about everything they see, don’t look at something and take it for granted and go, “Oh, that’s an interesting word,” and park it. Find out what that word is, what’s behind it? What’s behind who came up with it? Why does it exist? The last thing is proficient, and for us, in the bank, it’s financially proficient, if I was in a media company, say another media company, you’d be brand proficient, but it’s proficiencies. Those three things hang below everything I try and do within building the team’s skillset.
DB:	How about yourself, Andy, are you finding the-, I guess within the innovation agenda we’re increasingly seeing different models of working with partners?
AE:	That’s right, yes. So, I think there are a few things going on in the workplace. Your question as to have we seen a big shift in how we work, and we get talent? Definitely the narrative has shifted, so, I think you wouldn’t meet a bank out there that doesn’t want a more digital-led, agile workforce, with very specific skillsets. I think that’s really hard to do when you’ve got tens of thousands of people, so, the big question is do you replace? Do you repurpose? How do you face into that? I’m fortunate enough to have a little bit off to the side, where I can play around a little bit, and I guess the success that I’ve seen in the market, my learning so far is you can get a lot more done with fewer good people these days, right? So, you need the right people with a very specific skillset. If you get those people, they’ll knock it out the park. So, this is no longer a mass of the average, this is finding the very, very best. Then, if I were to describe what I wanted in someone and then I looked at what Tunde described what he wanted, it would be very similar. So, actually, what you’re finding is that the likes of McKinsey and the other big five accountancy companies and maybe what you’re looking for, David, in 11FS, what we’re looking for is a very strong overlap. So, what’s happening if you’ve got many more people going for fewer, fewer good people, and I see that a lot.
DB:	I think that’s an interesting thing, isn’t it? We’ve gone-, almost the time for talking has gone away, hasn’t it? I think the agenda now is very much, as you say, Tunde, about getting stuff done. We’re very much in that mindset where it feels like the deliverables to the customer are now more important than the deliverables to the board. That changing mindset I think is really interesting, and both from ours and I’m sure from McKinsey’s and RBS’ perspective, actually that tension of, you know, really showing things to market. Actually, the competitive landscape is changing so dramatically, that actually there’s no way that it could just be an internal thing anymore, right?
AE:	That’s right, yes, absolutely right.
TO:	Yes, I think it’s also just there’s been a big shift in what it takes to make stuff, right? So, if you think about what it would be to commit, you know, a technology project in the past. You go through lots and lots of approvals, you’d builds a big business case, etc. People can put stuff out there fairly quickly, and changes, and customer behaviour has changed, in that they’ll accept that you’re working with them to build it and get excited by that. That’s really what’s happening, everyone has taken advantage of that shift. To your point, David, it means that advising people is more about role modelling how to do that, than it is about telling them, frankly, if you can’t do, then you’re not credible, I think it’s that simple, right? Wouldn’t you agree, Andy?
AE:	I completely agree, and we’re finding that, actually, with graduates, as an important thing, because, instinctively, you think let’s get more grads in, let’s get younger people in that will be much more adaptable and have a positive outlook and young skills. Increasingly when you’re in a small, call it project or business that you’ve set up, everyone needs to do something every day, a very specific skill. So, the days of the generalist learning on the job for a couple of years are, kind of-, if they’re not gone, you have to adapt in a very different way. So, you find a lot more picking and choosing between employer and employee. So, at some points I need a very specific technology skill, and then that’s gone, and I no longer need that. Equally, people are looking at me going, “That’s interesting now, it’s no longer interesting in six months.” So, that long-term contract with individuals is getting compressed, it’s much more transactional, I guess.
DB:	Yes, and I guess the impact for this, as well, is you’re working with different companies, continually, so, actually, the stresses and strains that that puts on, like, a 50-year-old procurement process must be quite interesting, because all of these things are almost knock on effects of working in a different way, aren’t they?
PR:	It feels like you’re leading me down a certain path here, David. No, I think that’s right, and I think procurement’s not the only function in a bank or a corporation which is thinking, you know, we need to get quicker at everything that we do, and procurement’s exactly right. 
DB:	There’s lots of different models here. So, I know, I think McKinsey do a JV side of things, and we’ve seen this with people like Bane, etc. out there. Almost the putting your expertise where your mouth is type-, and I think that’s great, because that changes the dynamic of the relationship. You know, I’m often, kind of, saying fintech’s more of a threat to the suppliers to banks than the banks themselves, because it really changes the delivery mechanism, as you’ve said, Tunde. So, it’s interesting that it’s rethinking not just the process, but the business model that underpins supplier relationships with big banks.
TO:	Yes, maybe just to amplify that, I think what we’ve found is that people just want different collaboration styles, right? It depends on the nature of the problem they’re going after. So, to your point, David, if someone’s trying to launch a business in a new area they’ve never been into before, what they really need is some people that can help them accelerate their path in there, right? So, people that can jump in and get them started, not a strategic study of the lay of the land, if you know what I mean? In that mode, you know, we basically are flexible, and I think we’ve just adapted ourselves to that landscape. I mean, it’s like what you guys are doing, you know, it’s the same kind of really getting in the trenches, and helping people get stuff done.
DB:	Yes, you’re being way politer than I usually am, but yes, absolutely. He’s representing-
TO:	Let’s (? 12.47).
DB:	No, I agree, I agree. You know, “that get shit done” mentality is very much about just making stuff happen, and that, sort of, relentless delivery towards an objective and that objective is usually a benefit to a customer. That’s an absolute must in terms of where we’re going. I think the thing that’s really interesting is that is almost how do you embody the mentality of a startup? You know, how do you bring about that passion and that desire for the changes? I guess, in big corporates, there’s rules for a reason, right? There’s a thing, there’s a protection, there’s a brand, there’s all of these things that go around it. So, your desire to make changes, and very similar to the route that we’ve seen with big IT architecture systems, you know, the system becomes to protect the system not to change the system. Actually, that’s almost the size is a problem, rather than a benefit, really.
PR:	It’s interesting because obviously, looking into a lot of the large corporates we deal with, it’s quite a privilege to work in the machinery of these last corporates. They often and frequently seem to just want to set up an innovation lab away from the centre, which we come back and challenge and say, “Why is it away from the centre? How do you bring that in?” The typical answer from the-, I suppose it’s the finance side or the CEO and CFO is, “Because when it comes in, it will be nicely formed, and we can use it.” You, sort of, go, well, what do your thousands of employees say to that? They say, “Oh, they’re waiting for it.” That, to me, is the wrong mindset, if they’re waiting for a little, shiny object to come floating in from a little innovation lab that’s around somewhere. To touch on an earlier point, the mindset has to be embedded in everyone in the organisation, everyone’s got to be thinking, innovation, and not relying on someone else. So, when we touch, with a lot of these large corporates, around this topic, and it is probably the most mooted topic I speak to, at all levels, it’s all about how you bring that innovation to everyone, so we can actually drive it through the mindset. So, you get, as we know, the ideas and thoughts from those little areas of the organisation that would never see the light of day, and they probably have got an amazing idea that never actually shines. So, we do that, and we trying to do more of that, and we’re trying to get better, as all organisations are, to start that and to really shine the light on that. Every large company has a startup within it and they just don’t know sometimes.
AE:	I think to build on that, Peter, we’re at a stage where everyone’s calling quick development innovation, right? I think the better way of thinking about it, particularly if, let’s say you’re a product organisation within a large corporate or a bank. What you’re doing is not innovating, but what you should be doing is going, “I want agile, multidisciplinary teams that can make decisions quickly and I want propositions that get to market in a fraction of the time I’ve been able to do them previously, and, you know what? I’m going to work with partners in a much more interesting way than before.” Now, don’t call it innovation because I think it, kind of, confuses everyone, and it’s just the new normal, it’s the new way that you have to get to market. I think what will happen, you’ll see the innovation name go away over time, as we become more mature in this new set of capabilities.
DB:	Is that the danger though? Because there are so many shiny things, right? Like AI and everything that’s happening in machine learning and blockchain. So, actually, innovation gets a pretty bad rap, because it’s like the cool kids in the corner with the shiny tools.
TO:	Yes, I mean this is really interesting. I mean, one of the most interesting broker notes I read recently was titled, “Transformation underway, nobody cares,” right? I think it’s quite interesting to spend time with analysts, especially the ones that cover banks, because, you know, frankly, every time they listen to you, what they’re listening for is what do I change in my model? As far as they hear, innovation sounds like extra cost, in the short-term, and they’re not sure what the prize is. I think this is a conundrum I see a lot of companies grapple with, which is we’ve got this thing on the side, it’s not yet in the core, and we know we need to make it bigger, and we know that for a while it’s going to cost us money. Then there might be a prize at the end. People who invest in us don’t reward that, so, I think that’s a really complex dance that people are struggling with. I don’t know whether that’s something you guys are feeling?
AE:	Absolutely, and it’s very similar to the-, I mean there are a series of things that are happening across many banks, and industries, one is how do we bring it in? The other classic one is failing fast, which is something we really, really, really struggle with, in a corporate, because we’re not people that have got the jobs because we’ve failed a lot in our lives. We’re not incentivised in our end of year objectives to fail at anything, the regulators don’t love us to fail. Now we go, “Can you fail fast?” Every, kind of, part of our culture and organisation is saying don’t fail, so that’s another one that’s a classic, that I think is one that’s hard to navigate.
PR:	One point in that, I think I was with a CEO of a large retail chain recently, and it’s all about tone from the top of how you bring those pieces in. He describes the stores, not as a new store, we’re going to refurb and make it better. He says, “These are boxes where exciting things will happen.” I think that tone from the top will set the investors, the people and the environment to reward the prize, whatever it happens to be. If you set that vision, and it’s very clear, that is a key element.
AE:	I mean, I’m hopeful, given it’s my job, that there’ll be a snowball effect, right? So, you start delivering some things, I’m very keen that you-, you know, when I started this job, that I delivered some stuff that was visible, so people realise, you know, this is not a funny little lab that goes away for a couple of years. The more things you deliver, the more people believe, the more positivity you get, so, I think that’s the-, you’ve still got to back yourself, because you’re still not quite sure where this is going to end up, which is a very different way than we’re all used to working.
DB:	It’s momentum, isn’t it? As you say. I think the thing is, you know, where we’re talking about innovation is usually a technology, people think about it in a technology sense, but the most impactful thing that people are innovating around, to your point, Andy, is the business model. With that comes wholesale cultural change, you know? The tone of a company is not ever set just from the people at the bottom, it’s actually the tone from the top. That’s the key thing, like you say, direction is always from the front of the ship, essentially, right?
AE:	Exactly, and also, it’s when you build up the bowels of the ship, shall we say? I have the privilege of running the graduate programme, parts of it, for the bank, and one thing I’m trying to change in the mindset is I’m trying to say, well, I don’t want to hire graduates. Everyone looks at me with some sort of horror and goes, “What on earth are you talking about?” I say, “No, I want to hire different sorts of people.” They say, “What do you mean?” “I want to hire, I don’t know, let me call them fin-ologists.” Everyone looks at me like, okay. It took a few years, but we got there eventually, we all knew it was going to happen.
DB:	So, “fin-ologists”?
AE:	Fin-ologists, so, fin, hyphen, ologists. So, fin, finance proficient, because you’re never going to take that away, you want to deal with a professional in the finance organisation, which we are. That’s a linear learning which we’re going to skill you up with. The ology is linking into the technological changes that are happening within our customers, within our industry, and across the market. You’ve got to understand those pieces, put them together. So, the people I want to bring in will be financially proficient, but they’ll be linking into the technology and really understanding it more so than our customers, and helping bring our customers, whether it’s the large corporates, mid, even some of the retail, up with us. It’s a different thing, if you go to a university where I was recently, I said, “I want to hire some fin-ologists,” everyone goes, “Yes, pick me, pick me.” “I want to hire a banking graduate,” and it’s stony silence.
DB:	It does sound cooler. If I hear McKinsey are coming out with a “Fin-ology Insider” podcast in a couple of weeks’ time, I’m going to be really upset, I’m just saying.
TO:	Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right?
DB:	Somebody buy that domain right now, if you’re listening.
[Break]
DB:	So, I guess, like you say, this cultural shift, how is that really manifesting itself? We’ve talked about recruitment, recruitment is definitely one thing. You know, are we seeing any other impacts, in terms of all of the businesses that we work with?
AE:	I think there are a couple of things going on. One, the shift to multidisciplinary and agile is just common sense, right? So, if you, kind of, go, what’s the most efficient way of making decisions in a business now you’ve got tech that can move very quickly? So, you want siloes of massive functions or do you want everyone in a room that’s empowered to make a decision, right? It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out. So, common sense is there, so, I, kind of, fundamentally buy that and I fundamentally buy that even if you can’t get tech in the room to open the bonnet and make the change, it’s probably still worth doing because idea to design is much quicker. So, I think that I buy that completely. The problem that you get then when you put people who have grown up in different organisational constructs is that they’re not used to operating in this environment. The big one that I see is people are stopped making decisions. So, you can be in a large organisation, quite senior, middle management, and you’ve actually stopped making decisions. People have lost that ability, that appetite, that have I got permission to do this? That’s one of the biggest things that I actually see as a cultural shift. Now, what you then get is someone that loves making decisions and you put them in that environment, and they’re off. Most people do love making decisions, by the way, they’ve just lost the art of doing it. I think you will start to see more and more people get that, yes, I love making decisions, I feel empowered, but it doesn’t come naturally to an organisation. I am yet, having done this for eighteen months-, I can’t think of a single example where someone’s made a decision that I thought is out of their mandate or they should have come to me and they haven’t. I don’t think anyone’s pushed it, to my boundaries, which is really interesting. I’m looking at my team, actually, across here, and I think-,
DB:	Sophie, over there, you’ve got some boundaries to push right now.
AE:	I’m not throwing the challenge down, by the way, but people will get to the point, I’ve made that decision, is that okay? Can I run it by you? Which is equally fine, but it’s not a-, I haven’t got 50 or 60 people there that are just comfortable making lots of decisions. I mean, that is to come.
DB:	Yes, it’s a really interesting tension, as well, because it’s almost like when you’ve got nothing to lose, right? When a small fintech has got nothing to lose, then actually, you know, it’s about being the adversary to banks and actually being in that position where you’ve got things to chase. If you’ve got no customers, you’ve got nothing to lose, right? Big organisations have got, kind of, everything to lose. You’ve got a brand to protect, you’ve got customers, you’ve got systems, you’ve got all of these things in place. You know, and I think that’s the interesting, sort of, backdrop to everything that’s happening from a competitor perspective. You must see this in the corporates that you work with, as well, like we’re not in a scenario where this is just a banking problem, this is a big company problem that we see everywhere, right?
PR:	That’s a disruption across the whole industry. Just on Andy’s point, I always call it the warm comfort blanket of the monthly paycheque nulls the innovation and the drive. I think your point is well made, is that you often have nothing to lose in a small company, in a large company you can just meander around a bit and the decision-making is hugely important to actually drive the organisation forward.
DB:	So, how do you bring about that edge? In big companies, how do they get that fight back? Because that’s the thing, isn’t it? Starting a company, I’ll run through a wall to make something happen, in terms of where we’re going. How do you bring that edge back to your employees? How do you bring that edge back to what you’re delivering to a big customer?
PR:	So, we touched on, earlier, the mindset, and that underpins everything. You’ve got to have that mindset of likeminded people that are driving this business forward. They look at the business you’re in, the part of the business you’re in, and they want to make it the best. What does the best mean? You’re constantly looking left, right, sideways, upwards and downwards. You want to be the best, there’s an inner desire to get to that point, and you want your customers you deal with to view you as the best. You know, we’re in a cricket ground now, there’s people on that pitch out there that go out there to be the best. They don’t go out just to hit a ball over the boundary, occasionally, they want to be the best at it. That’s what we get, and that reflection and that drive, that edge you talk about, is within those pods of people you employ and have around you, and it’s infectious. It’s hugely infectious. When you see someone to your left or right just pushing the boundaries, doing something new, doing something different, saying, “Oh, that’s a new way of doing things,” it just snowballs on. The next person wants to do the next thing better. You know, I used a little term recently called the try-cycle, as in t-r-y cycle, which is just try things, balance the outcome, and see what bits are successful in that outcome, and have a go again. Just get into that trying cycle. I mean, people would say, “Peter, you’re just describing fail fast,” but hey, I’m a positive guy, I don’t like the word fail too much. So, I don’t use it. I think the try-cycle, for me, picks it up, and that’s what I’m trying to embed into everyone I meet, like the customers, the peers, anyone in my business. So, I say, “What have you tried today?” They go, “What do you mean?” “Well, what have you tried? What have you got up and tried something?” That’s the point Andy’s making, is that you’ve got to have a way of having a decision to do something. If you don’t try it, you’ll never know, we’ll just end up in a room, guessing, and go, “Oh, well, this might work. I don’t know, does it work? I don’t know, what do you think?” Then it’s probably the most senior person goes, “I think it will work, off you go and run around,” and funnily enough it might not work.
DB:	I guess that’s a really valid point. Do senior stakeholders know the right thing to do?
TO:	Yes, I was going to comment on that, because one of the things that I see a lot is, frankly, that a lot of boards and senior leaders have a lot of stuff to get up to speed on, right? They’re trying to run a business at the same time. When you, kind of, look at businesses, a lot of businesses are based on exploiting the same innovation that they made a long time ago, on a continuous basis, whilst lots of new companies are constantly having to change what they are, like every couple of years. In fact, I think there was a recent blog that said that’s why you have more founders staying with companies for longer, because you need the vision person to keep changing, as opposed to swapping out for professional management, as used to be the way. I think that’s just what’s happening, more and more industries have to keep changing, every couple of years, what the product is, how they come to market. When that pressure hits your industry, I think, David, that becomes the time when people realise they need to do something different. Unfortunately, there’s still lots of industries, you know, I mean banking is, as far as I saw, has been earning about the same spread for the last 100 years, right? Reduced by 2% or something. So, it’s finally getting chipped away at, and the primacy of the branch, etc. is changing. Lots of other industries, frankly, no one’s coming for them yet, right?
AE:	Going back to your question, David, around what does it take to get an employee in a corporate to run through a wall for you? I think there are a few things that we need to get better at, collectively. I think one is the bar is quite high for good people to come and work for you. First of all, they want a good place to work, right? The environment needs to be right, the people around them need to be right and they need to get sponsorship. So, they’re looking at that before they’ve even come through the door for a chat. Then there’s got to be some purpose, right? So, why are they here? What are they doing? Are they here to make an old machine go a bit quicker or keep it a bit safer? Not really. I think it was you mentioned recently, Tunde, it’s about impact, people want to make impact. They don’t want to move a little button on a screen, or change a policy. So, you’ve got to give them the opportunity to make impact, and then I think once you’ve got some of those environmental factors in place, you need to look at how you manage and incentivise people. Most organisations have got a ratings profile of how you do, it’s maybe one to five or one to four, it’s usually binary, people are working towards that, may or may not make a difference to what you get paid at the end of the year. Does it really matter? Does it really incentivise people? I think we need to challenge that, if it’s right for the modern world, when we’ve got much more purposeful individuals and projects that finish much more quickly and this, kind of, annual cycle. Secondly, there’s this hierarchy, and particularly in banks, we’ve got about-, step from graduate to MD, I think we’ve got, collectively, five or six, and does that motivate people? Are we managing people the right way? Does that make people run through walls? If it doesn’t, what are they there for? If we’re putting people together in agile rules going, “You’re all, 10 or 12 of you, and you’re all making decisions,” does it matter if one’s an MD, one’s an ED and one’s a director? Not really. So, I think there are things where-, I don’t know the answer and I’m not sure if we’re all addressing these actively, but if you look at those things, those structures, are they designed to make someone run through a wall? I’m not sure.
DB:	I think it’s really interesting, we’re not-, the person at the top of the company isn’t necessarily the smartest person at the company anymore. If you look at, like, Google or the engineers, who are the people two or three levels down are actually the people who are making all of the changes, you know? I’m definitely not the smartest guy at 11FS, like, everybody else is smarter than me at this company. Yes, I know, my reputation precedes me. Do you know what I mean? I think we’re moving much more to a sports team metaphor, actually, where you can have David Beckham and Ronaldo and all these players, like, playing together. Actually, you know, somebody like, you know, an Alex Ferguson or whatever is the manager of that setup, but they don’t necessarily need to be either the highest paid or the person who’s the smartest in where we’re going. I think the difference there is that actually it takes a real different level of, kind of, emotional intelligence to manage in this type of day and age, really. I think it’s one of those things, that big companies really, really struggle with that type of thing. We’re definitely seeing the fallout of that, I think, in many industries, and banking’s definitely not any different from that.
AE:	I think it’s a big new skillset around getting the right partners or people and curating them into a very purposeful project, which might not last forever. Then it gets there, and you do it again, and that can be external partners, it can be internal partners, but you’ve got to be able to bridge and curate that ecosystem. I think the consultancies are finding that and individually I find that quite a lot.
TO;	Yes, I mean, as someone who walks into lots of companies all the time, there’s definitely a skillset in partnering effectively. Lots of people actually don’t know the best way to collaborate with third parties and get the most out of it, and it takes real investment. When people get it right they obviously achieve multiples of what they could have done singularly. You know, David mentioned it earlier, the simplest one is some of the procurement processes I’ve had to see fintechs jump through to just do a proof of concept with a large company. I mean, it makes no sense, they’ve got employees who are focused on building the right product, understanding the customer, and all of a sudden, they have to spend weeks filling in health and safety assessments, and I’m sure you’ve seen that pain, David.
DB:	Well, I’m notoriously quite risky, so I can understand it pretty well. I guess, so, you know, we’re saying innovation isn’t about technology, it’s about people and process. I think that’s maybe, like, the most fundamental thing that people can take away from this, but what’s next then? How do we really move to that future? How do we move the dial, when you guys are an organisation of, what, 70,000, 80,000 people?
PR:	100,000.
DB:	100,000, wow, it’s like how do you implement this at scale? That’s got to be the challenge.
AE:	I’ll pass that one to Peter, I think, because he’s-,
PR:	I suppose I can just talk personally, where I’ve done my direct business, which I think could roll out quite neatly, is I think we’ve touched on a few points. One of the points we have touched on is we get very cluttered around what we’re trying to do day in, day out. So, you’ve got to take your people, staff, or even with your customers out for what I would call some free time. So, I put in some recent free to think sessions, so, I basically take a quarter of my team out of the office, to a different environment, like we are here today, and we have one singular topic we talk about. Then we break into groups, we have three hours to discuss that topic and thoughts around it. For example, service is one, insight was another one we’ve done and the banker of 2025. So, specifically, we get that group of individuals really, really laser focusing on that particular point. What I’ve found, out of that, is that you get a lot of stuff in the future, and this all sounds great, we want to do X and Y, but actually you can navigate quite quickly to stuff you can actually do today, to move the organisation around that particular topic. You then go back into your organisation and make changes from it. I think it’s hugely important, you can take that concept and you just put it into your week, what’s your free to think hour? What do you mean? Well, it’s up to you. I would really counsel everyone to have it on one particular topic, because if our minds are cluttered and you’re free to think, you’ll be decluttering and that’s not what you want to be doing, you’re refocusing. So, I found that hugely impactful, and it’s also-, the side effects I didn’t expect was the engagement I got from the people doing it. They came away buzzing, they came out of these, sort of, three-hour sessions really on fire and their ideas were way off where any other, sort of, banker or financial professional would be. So, it’s pushing that group in a different way and giving the free time to do it.
DB:	Yes, so, we’ve spoken to a number of people and partners, and that consistently comes out. It’s about having the freedom of actually assessing the thing that you’re doing, you know, there are so many organisations that are so consumed with doing the thing that they have been asked to do, that actually standing back and saying, “Is this the better way of doing it,” is always a thing to do. It was the thing I always used to get told off for as a child, I’ll be honest with you, like, just bloody do it, David, was the thing that I reoccuringly heard. No, I completely understand.
PR:	Sponsored by Nike then, were you?
DB:	Pretty much, yes, as a baby, which was nice. Yes, thanks very much, guys, for joining us on this, I think it’s a fascinating thing, I think actually the challenge of cultural transformation is continually a piece. I don’t think this is ever something that is done, and for any companies that are thinking that you-, it’s a project that you file it (ph 37.23) away and it’s done, and you’re dusted, and you move on. Never happens. So, guys, thanks for joining us.
PR:	Thanks for having me.
TO:	Thank you very much.
AE:	Pleasure.
DB:	That wraps up another episode of Fintech Insider, if you liked what you heard, subscribe to our podcast, and leave us a review on iTunes, we love reading those reviews. Thanks for everything, see you soon.
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