Speaker 1:          00:07          [inaudible]

James:              00:07          frank, it happens. It's the worst day

James:              00:09          recorded history mark, this date recorded on July 9th, 2019 yeah. We all come together for one of the best products ever created and is no longer with us because apple has decided that is not worthy. Do you know what that product is, frank?

Frank:              00:26          Yes, James. I'm aware. Unfortunately these are solid times. I think we were all deeply personally affected me much less so than you because I never bought this product and think it was that great. But never mind. Yes. James, what was it? What has ended?

James:              00:44          It was the best of times and now it is the worst of times. The macbook adorable is officially gone.

Frank:              00:51          Can it still be adorable if they're not selling it anymore? Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes, it's still the backdoor pocket doorbell. I've heard it referred to as the 12 inch macbook, which totally confused me because the official name is definitely adorable and it's gone. It's gone. That's the, yeah, like they'd even write a press release. They didn't have a whizzbang conference or anything. It's just, it's just con James.

James:              01:17          It is sort of the worst day. Um, I don't even want to record. I honestly, once I read this because Holly told me on Twitter one hour ago, she said, um, is anyone else curious how James [inaudible] is handling the news that apple killed the Mac book? Adorable and I'm not handling it well. That is for sure. Um, I don't even want to record the podcast. I don't even want to go to this conference anymore. I just want to stay in and get into a ball and never and never come out of it.

Frank:              01:43          You mean the conference we've already attended? Yeah. Well, you know, yeah, we record ahead of time. People like, people know frank. Okay, well now, spoiler alert. Let's be honest, everyone, it wasn't the fastest computer, but it was definitely the lightest. Um, it always put the iPad kind of, I almost saw it as a competitor to the iPad because here's a fully functional semi scares quotes. Just kidding. A computer that's essentially the same size as an iPad, a little bit bigger, but you get a lot for that. You get a whole keyboard and a bigger battery and all that. It was always the computer. I told people to buy a just casual users cause I'm like it's a great little computer. Still aluminum still awesome. Oh well. So now you have to get an air or a pro. That's it. That's, that's our life.

James:              02:37          I'm okay with that. I mean here's how I, here's how I uh, here's how I put it together. So the Mac book adorable is my little build machine. I use it all the time because I am always carrying around it really heavy a laptop, sometimes my 15 inch surface book two, sometimes my 13 inch surface book too. But if you combine a surface book and a Mac that gets really heavy on your back. So I wanted the lightest weight thing that I would be on and I develop apps on it. I, to me, it's a really nice machine. And the problem that I always had with it is that you really couldn't maximize it out. You couldn't get as much, you know, ram as you would want. You couldn't upgrade the SSD as much as you would now. I think that in the later time you could, you could get 16 gigs of Ram and I think you could get up to a terabyte.

James:              03:27          But the problem that it solved at the time was how can it be the lightest, you know, Mac book without being the Mac book air. And when it came out, there was no new Mac book air. So now that there is a new Mac book air, which is sonic kind of like the one of the best machines to buy, um, that's lighter that I think it's probably a better machine at actually not too bad of a price. I just specked out a macbook air gold, no rose gold. So that's very sad. It's got a [inaudible] processor, whatever. It's got 16 gigs of Ram, a half a terabyte of storage, backlit keyboard. It has two USB CS instead of one. And that $1,700, which I think is just a few hundred dollars more than the macbook adorable was. So I think it's okay. I am sad. But the new macbook air is, it's a really light device.

Frank:              04:21          I used a tricked out air forever. It was always fine. I think that first generation air, they were kind of terrible. And then um, they got really good and then apple ignored them for years and finally they're reinvesting in them consolidating the line. I guess that's all we're seeing is consolidation, but it's sad to see that screen size go away, that 12 inch screen size now they did do something else. So yeah. What'd you say? It's up to two cores. A 1.6 Gigahertz, something like that. The computer I'm interested in these days is always the pro, but I've been backing off from it because of all the rumors about how bad the keyboard it is. And honestly, I'm not in love with that touch bar thing. I am that person that wants the escape key. And he know what else they did. James, he got rid of the model with the escape key. So the Mac book escape is gone too. What are they doing today?

James:              05:20          I like that [inaudible] is the official name of it. The macbook escape because that's amazing.

Frank:              05:25          I think that's another Marco name [inaudible] thing. Yeah. So we uh, for those not in the new, um, we call it the macbook escape because it was the last Mac book pro you could get that actually had a physical escape key. And if you're a programmer, like probably most of all of us are, um, you love that escape key. It's just, it's built into my brain. Now. There were rumors going around that they're working on a new keyboard that would also have the inverted t layout of the cursor keys. You know how the current models have gone with that weird, you know, the left and right out. Not that, but the left and right cursor keys, they're as big as the up and down cursor keys. It's key keyboard layout. Yeah. And the right way, as we all know, is they should all be the same size key with the, the UPCI a little bit higher than the rest of them. Ah. So yeah, the rumor is that then next version of Mac book pros will have all of that back, the escape key plus those. But I don't trust rumors anymore. They said it was going to happen now and instead we lost all that stuff. I don't think I'm ever going to be able to upgrade my laptop. It's just never gonna happen.

James:              06:42          It's it. I mean to me this is, it makes a whole lot of sense, right? When you go to the Mac website now it's very clear that you can buy either a Mac book, air, a Mac macbook pro, two models, Imac, imac pro Mac mini Mac pro, like make so much sense. Now when you go over to the iPhone, if you look at the current Gen, so you know past John, whatever, seven, eight you get that there's excess XR. Make sense, you know, bigger ones, smaller ones, but they're the same now when you get to like the iPad, like oh my goodness, like that is a no, that is a hot mess. iPad mini iPad, iPad, air, iPad pro. What are the, I don't even know. There's too many and it puts it in a hard spot for the consumers. Even when you go to the compare page, you can only compare three at a time. You can't compare it for it at times. I don't want these four models. Yeah. So it's very tricky. I mean I would say though, if I'm a developer buying a machine, it's hard right now. I think so. I think they just made it even harder.

Frank:              07:44          You just got to buy a Mac pros. It's just the best machine out there that's looking at the end on a Mac pro as looking at the 15 inch lines since they refreshed a bunch of stuff, six cores, James' running at 2.6 gigahertz. I don't think I would ever buy a 15 inch laptop cause I like the portability. That's the whole thing for me. But Dang, six cores and they even have an eight core running slightly slower. I'm sure they're hitting all the edges of the power envelope there. Uh, eight cores running at 2.3 gigahertz. This is like a Mac apple fan boy episode.

James:              08:22          It could be. It could be. I mean, you know, we get the question all the time and we've probably addressed it on this podcast in the last five years that we've done three, three years that we've done this podcast of what to buy. And I, funnily enough, I don't really think that our opinion has changed all that much. I would probably buy a really beefy touch bar or not macbook pro. I may even go the 15 inch. I will say at home right now, today I've been playing between the 15 inch surface book two and the 13 inch surface book too. I think the 15 inch is a better machine. I think it's just, it's a better machine. 15 inch. Huh? See you're carrying that puppy around. How's it feel? Uh, it feels like it's as big is. Uh, it, it, let's just say the thing with the 15 inch is that while it does add some extra haft, it also really maximizes the amount of space in your backpack. So it's edge to edge in your backpack, you know, and that's probably the upsetting part where it makes it harder to fit other stuff in. But besides that, it's, it's fine.

Frank:              09:26          That's awesome. My niece was just asking me a what computer she should buy. She's going off to college and I said, go find the oldest macbook pro you can because they're all rocks. They all work forever. You know, I didn't want her spending a lot of money on a new one, but I see actually the starting price isn't so bad. Huh? $1,300. But Gosh, they start you with 128 gigs of memory. That's just mean apple. That's mean. What are you going to do with 128 you're going to fill that like the first time you sync your photos, you wake up. It goes on my memory. Oh, how big was your adorable? I mean it was adorable, but it was small stuff. Do you recall?

James:              10:09          Um, I had it, where did I put it? Uh, I was charging in the other room. I believe that I put eight gigs of Ram and a five 12 SSD in it.

Frank:              10:15          Okay. That's much better. Yeah. Wow. I guess you just have to see how much they charge you for all that hard drive. I think I heard also remember that those were going down in prices from apple, which is a relief.

James:              10:28          Something's got to go down. They want to sell machines, right? I mean we want to make applications to put on their machines, frank. So, but it's hard because I was just honestly talking today about um, you know, ios 13 and you know, I always get the question about should I install it? Someone asked me, would you install it? Should you install it? Is this a thing that should happen? You know, on your machine. And it's very tricky. I think we talked about it when we were talking about dub dub DC is I don't feel, even though I am an ios developer and I want to make sure that my apps work 100% on the latest and greatest, I don't feel like I can go take my Mac book adorable, which is my day to day Mac and install all this stuff on it. I just don't think I can comparatively frank, I'm over on my surface book and I have visual studio 201720192019 preview and visual studio 2019 internal preview for only Microsoft employees. I have four versions, frank all on the same machine and like everything's gravy. But um, I'm too worried not just about the Catalina upgrade but then also x code and the back compat like it's not say I know you can sandbox it, but I don't really feel like it's sandbox. Can you correct me if I'm wrong?

Frank:              11:50          Yeah. So sandboxing, you're not going to sandbox and o s very well or successfully. Um, I mean you mentioned you have a bunch of versions of visual studio, but it's not like you have multiple versions of windows running and that's what we're talking about when we talk about Catalina and ios 13. Uh, where do we even begin with all this stuff? Number one. James, I am running Catalina on my laptop, so I'll let you play with it at the conference that we've already been to. Okay. Yes. When it comes to, um, should I try the Beta? Um, I think Marco, just the say the name, uh, he came right out and said, don't do it. I'm quite the opposite. I'm like, yeah, go for it. Who Cares? Like maybe you won't be able to access your iCloud files for a couple of months, but you don't need those files.

Frank:              12:39          I mean, come on, you can handle being away from your data for a couple of months. I'm just kidding. Uh, they fixed most of the bugs, so I have it running on an iPad and it's slow and I kind of regret installing it on there. But it's also fun to see the random new features. I'm into this stuff because I love the operating system. So if I have a chance to play with a newer version, I'm going to play with a new version. What do I care anyway? I should say nothing works anyway. Um, I have this, I'm writing, I'm writing some, um, metal metal code, you know, uh, that, that framework and Ios and it's been running fine in the Sim. Uh, no, I take that back. It doesn't run fine in the simulator. Simulator doesn't support metal. So there one thing doesn't work. Uh, it runs fine on my iPad pro. Great. All the code works and then today I decide I'm going to run it on the iPad mini using the latest OSTP and just random functions fail code that works perfectly fine on the iPad and works fine on the Mac. Um, does not work fine on this just random piece of hardware. So you know what, sometimes things don't work. He just kinda like roll with the punches. Might as well enjoy the new shiny stuff. I guess that means I should go get one of those crappy keyboards on one of those new macros. Yeah.

James:              14:02          Well, yeah, I mean to me it was, it was very clear. I have a macbook pro 2013 fall 2013 one of the best macbook pros in my opinion. And you're right, they do honestly run rock solid. I've never had any problems with it. I, that's usually my Beta machine. Right. I upgraded and I do want to talk about more than just the machines and things like that. I think it's worth talking about how we as developers can only test these new products, but in our software tests, the new API APIs and give feedback. But let's first take a quick break and thank our sponsor this week. Reagan, listen, are you releasing new software? Maybe it's a Beta. Who knows? Maybe you need to upgrade your ols so your users can go ahead and use your software. Oh, maybe it's a website and you're rolling out constant updates all the time.

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James:              15:36          Okay, so two things. Let's start first with the hardware because I have said that I've on my surface go installed or the Beta versions of windows, I've gone down that route and you're right. Some you by being a Beta member you are opening up your life to say, I am willing to try out this new hotness craziness. That's awesome. Maybe I'll give you feedback, but I hope that there's built in crash reporting. So, you know, I mean to me I feel like just doing that alone, like I feel like that I'm a being a good digital citizen a little bit just by installing the Betas.

Frank:              16:14          You know, just talking about feedback. Apple has a new feedback app. When you install their Betas, there's a little too old, it's forcibly installed onto your computer and um, it's there. Uh, do, are you familiar with the term radars? You file a radar with the apple. Yeah. That was kind of their bug tracking system. But the problem with the bug tracking system was it was kind of an old website be it wasn't public. And so people started creating their own public copies of the radars is a weird world. Well they've made a nice new app so that when you file feedback with them, it has a list of all the issues you filed. And then on the right hand side, a thread of your discussion with apple. Basically it's apple asking you to run this crazy tool that crazy too old to collect this log and that log. But honestly, I found the experience to be very good. I even had an EPL engineer on Twitter contact me and ask me for some case numbers because he thought he could look into it. So I'm there definitely, definitely looking for feedback and as someone who wants to make sure that the APIs are working and the scenarios that I want to work with the new version are indeed working when it's all released. Uh, yeah, I, I'm in, I'm using those APIs even if they're a little Janky in the beginning.

James:              17:42          Yeah. And I mentioned earlier that I had, you know, three or four different versions of visual studio installed. It's the same, the visual team, very similar to what you're saying, right. That they did on the Mac is inside of visual studio and visual studio for Mac, there is a, a report, a problem button and you can with a single click say report a problem. It's like filing a bug report on get hub. But the difference is that you can upload additional screenshots, you can upload files, you can give them your crash logs. It's all, you know, anonymized through the system that's all cleared out and you can give them as much or as little as you want, but it honestly takes a few seconds because you don't even have to wait for it to finish the uploading. And you'll just do that in the background, like handles it, which is really nice. So every time I'm live coding or even if I'm not live coding, you know, I'll, I'll see an issue. And you know what, you know what I do is like, oh, the Dev team. Like they'll fix it, right? It's just fine. But what if they don't frank? Like, what if they don't fix it? Like, I don't know. So it's my duty to report that problem and I honestly have been doing that more and more over the last, uh, two years, three years or so.

Frank:              18:56          This is my life. I think bugs are so obvious. I'm just like, well, obviously they know that's going on. So obviously they're gonna fix it the absolute moment. They touch that code ever again. And then they touch the code and they don't fix the bug. And I'm like, wait, wait, what about that obvious thing, right? Frank, you got to report bugs. I'm like, oh, right. Reporting bugs. I'm so bad at it. Uh, but thank goodness for that tool they added to visual studio. Probably its best feature is that there's, with a single click, you can just attach all the logs because if you've ever filed a visual studio bug, the first thing, they're like, give us the logs. And so it's so nice to just be able to do that. Uh, one critique, James of the visual studio site reporter, if you just do a screen recording on Mac, it really doesn't like the file format of the video. It's just annoying. Like it doesn't want you uploading a.mov file. So everyone out there, in case you're using a Mac and you don't know, there's a fantastic program out there called handbrake. And that's for converting between ridiculous video formats to make websites happy. So if you do a screen recording, you can just use handbrake for free to convert it away.

James:              20:09          Have you thought about filing a bug about the upload? I'm serious. Somebody will read that. You know, uh, I'm going to actually go talk to Cody and the team about this because I didn't know that actually.

Frank:              20:21          Well, it's funny too because I think it's just a container issue because these files are mpeg four. They're, I'm ht 64, whatever you want to call it. It's just that it doesn't like the.mov as far as I can tell. So one of those just, you know, websites pro tip, get handbrake, it's great. And

James:              20:41          touristing and try, you know what they should do is they should be able to submit that file and then use media services and convert that file on the manned into an MP four or something like that for them.

Frank:              20:52          Oh, I didn't even know about Azure media services. Look at all the services they've got out there. Yeah. You know, I was, I was trying to write out a budget of all the services I'm paying for. I hate to think of it, but I was like, Hey, this'll be fun. Let's make a list. And then, uh, the Azure column came up and I was like, I have literally no idea how much I'm paying for Azure. Well, you do get a bill in the mail, frank, don't, you know, I don't like to read those sites. I don't read email. You know, that. And I probably would have turned that email setting off anyway. Who wants to know, they'll just turn off. Sure.

James:              21:31          I'll tell you this much. Okay. So I was randomly getting a $40 bill every month from Azure. Oh row and yeah, for like a year I let it slide because I was like, okay, I like, I guess I'm just using over and I have the sure, you know, you get like a free credit every month. And I'm like, no, I don't, I guess I guess I might just have some demo or some websites costing me $40 yeah. And I couldn't figure it out. And I ended up contacting support and this was amazing by the way. Like I contacted support about a $40 bill and they literally got back to me within like an hour and they said, oh, that's really, really weird because you have some credits and they're not used. And that's what kind of threw me was like, oh, I'm not doing, or whatever. Yeah. And that was a red flag. Okay. Come on. What's going on here? And back and forth, back and forth. And what it turned out is that I had turned on for Azure Dev ops, like a dedicated upgraded tier, which is $40 a month. Even though I didn't, I didn't need it. I just was doing like local builds or whatever. And they said, you can't use your credits for Azure Dev ops for that thing. Sure. And I go, oh right. Ah. I was like, okay.

Frank:              22:43          So you said, you said one thing, I don't believe you. You said you don't need that Dev ops James, you need that Dev ops.

James:              22:49          Well, I use all the free stuff in the Dev ops. I didn't need the paid stuff. I didn't need the paid stuff. Oh, I'm using the Dev ops, don't you? Are you frank? But they do have a good cost breakdown. So I said, did you figure out how much you're paying for?

Frank:              23:02          Yeah, yeah. Like you said, it's confusing with credits and not credits, but as far as I can tell, it's somewhere between 30 and $45 a month depending on if I'm reading everything correctly. But that's for like four different websites. I have such a complicated subscription and whatever resource group thing. I was trying to figure out the hierarchy of venture. Sorry I'm not trying to turn this into an Azure episode. We'll get back to hardware, but yeah, just, just figuring out the hierarchy because you have like subscriptions, resource groups, there's another one and then whatever service plans,

James:              23:39          there's probably a, a report, a suggestion button inside of the portal. Um, well, okay, so I want to get back to this reporting, this being a good digital digital programmer. Right? Really I know. And in the world of which there's, we always want constant updates, constant, you know, improvements in the ide, constant new versions of the oss are coming out. But I also think that extends to new get packaged packages as well that we're using or, or npm packages or anything else. How do you go about actually using nougat packages and giving feedback? Like whether Xamarin forms or something else that's out there. Like what is your cycle like in that process?

Frank:              24:19          God, I think this is one place where the Dev world has gotten really good. Um, just because most new gets out there are open source projects and most open source projects are on get hub. So we're all just kinda hanging out there. So when it comes to, um, just, you know, finding new gets, of course I use my food, get.org put a plug in for my own website, [inaudible] dot org everyone, it's better than new get.org. Um, um, but it's, it's always just posted an issue on the get hub page and it works, you know, you get to have a dialogue even if the, um, library is not being maintained, you usually find other people that are like, yeah, I ran into that too. Or most often than not, I think we've all run into this. You search first with Google and then you find a thread that's two years old that was closed, which links to another thread, which was maybe closed, which was moved to a repo and another thread. And then eventually you find the solution to your problem or you beg people to reopen the bug. Is that your experience too?

James:              25:29          Uh, my experience is a mixed bag because I, you know, I, I want to believe that when I'm using a package and I find an issue, like I'm almost scared to report a bug. Like I don't, I don't like, it's almost insulting, right? Even though I really want everyone to report bugs and I also want people to fix bugs. I think I want people to send pull requests down. That's even like a bigger thing. I mean the, for me, I, I want to be a good Dataset, good digital package user I would say. Because I have always said, and I think I've said on this podcast, I would love if, um, you, when people write issues, they give a lot of, you know, they spend some time on it, spend more than a minute. The problem is that I don't do that. And that's really a problem in my eyes is I write something really quick, even with the, the, you know, the issues that are reported to visual studio.

James:              26:27          It's like a few sentences and that's it. But really what I should be doing is like screenshots and videos. And you know, if I can fix that, I'll just send the port request down. Uh, in general. So what I often see has been helpful though, is if you can get a community, the new gift that you have and the community kind of steps in to answer questions and fill things in. I haven't really seen that too much on a lot of my libraries that I have. More recently I sort of assorted did something that's not good, but I did it anyway. So I took the approach of what if I just don't work on this library for a few months?

Frank:              27:06          [inaudible] what happens? I can give you the answer to that. I think I know, well it depends on the maths of your library, who's using it, how passionate are they? Is it technically accessible to people? Can people do prs or not? Um, but that means you're not accepting prs either. That means you didn't appoint a new manager. You're just taking a step back and seeing what happens. So what,

James:              27:32          yes, I'm, I'm taking a step back, however, I am actively accepting pool requests.

Frank:              27:41          Okay, that's good. See that's when I start to feel guilty is when I'm not at least looking at poll requests because there is a point in a library where the community can manage at least its most outrageous bugs. But if we're not doing our jobs as maintainers of keeping the SIIA up and to keep in port requests coming in, that's where I fail. At least speaking for myself. That's where I always go wrong. Um, I don't even mind as a library man maintainer, I don't even mind poorly worded bugs because I get it. Um, people are stressed out usually at the point in time where they discover the bug, you know, like they found out the library doesn't do what they want or it crashes their app or it does something else that's terrible. And that's why you file a bug report. You're like, your library is terrible. It did this thing to my app. It was so close to being perfect, but it's not perfect. Therefore I hate you and I get it. That's how we all feel at that moment in time. So I honestly don't mind those at all. Honestly. B also because I write them from time to time. So if I get angry with other people, then I'd always be angry with myself.

James:              28:53          Yeah. I feel like it's all about how you handle that situation. So I, when I do get in my mind on this side of the computer screen, I'm like, I'm like so upset, I'm like frustrated, but I'm like, Hey, thank you for the bug report. I'm like, you know, could you fill in a little bit more detail that would really help me out. Right. Or can you add a little, you know, thing and, and hopefully they, they respond back, you know what I mean? But what I've seen on this project is a community, this is the media plugin, taking photos, picking photos. I've definitely seen people step in answering some questions and surprisingly, I've gotten some pull requests for the first time ever.

Frank:              29:29          Oh, look at that. Uh, there has to be some terrible animal rearing analogy to be made here, but it's just not coming to mind. So good job. You train the people to fix it themselves and something like that.

James:              29:45          Well, the thing is though, it's kind of like your sequel light Dash Anat, right? It's like the thing works and like the media plugin that the thing works. And normally what I see as there's like all these ads, there's like a billion edge cases. So people, people build their UI where they're using these other plugins or they're, you know, something, something is a little bit off. But I'm like in general it works pretty good, you know? And um, but what I've, what I done is like, you know, send the pull request. And I think by accepting the pull requests, I think people are scared to send four requests or don't know how to send the pull requests. You know, how do I fork something out? Do I create a branch? Do I not create a brand? How do I keep it in sync? It's, it's kind of still complicated in 29 times and I 2019 to figure out how do I properly send a PR down and get hubs, gotten a lot better with the UI of doing the under the hood, get shenanigans for you, but still not a hundred percent easy.

Frank:              30:40          Yeah. And I, I've been doing a new system of, I tried to favor just taking the poll request, even if it's not exactly how I would have implemented it or they got the white space wrong. I try to just get over myself and just accept it. I know there's arguments to be had on the other direction, you know, the, the, the, the perfectionist direction. But I, I'm more leaning on the side of I want other people to feel comfortable contributing to the code. And what I've decided was what I then have to do is before release is then go take a critical look at the code, uh, make sure the tests are running in a way that I want, make sure that we have test coverage. I do an API review. It's not something I used to do much before, but I try to look at the public exposed surface now and if I see um, names I don't like or types that I don't like basically artifacts of bad poll requests, things that I should have caught in a code review. Um, but if that stuff's private, don't really care, uh, you know, I'll deal with that later or something like that. So that's just been, um, just because I don't like doing code reviews so much anymore, I find that you can always just be a little bit too picky and I don't know, it's, I don't see too much value in them anymore. Bugs still gate made people the code, the code reviews like find what, 20% more bugs. That's about it. The rest is just arguing about names.

James:              32:19          Yeah. What I ended up doing is, yeah, just that is like today I did a, I was live streaming and I did a pull request in smalls to one of the asp.net websites. It's like, Hey, a little CSS, little html. And it's like, oh, we could've changed the names. We could have did something a little bit different. Mine, it works. I pulled it in and visual studio the get hub extension. So it was like pulled in the PR mess around a little like ran it seems to work right. And um, you know, and then I release all my new gets into a Beta feed so people can get access to them. But I agree, we do a lot with Xamarin. Essentials is, I, you know, talking to the team a lot. It's like, it's so hard because we're all [inaudible] everyone has opinions on like, Oh, what is it, this name, is it that name?

James:              32:58          Like, and how much back and forth do you do? Like this community member, whether it's someone to SQL light dash net or media plug into essentials, did all of this work to get this original prn. And then honestly going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth just takes, it slows down the process. So if there's something fundamentally wrong, it's like, okay, let's take a step back. And like, let's open an issue and let's think about the design. But you know, maybe I'll just pull it into a branch and I'll clean it up myself and no one's going to be mad about that. You know, I think that's the one thing I've noticed is you added a feature. Maybe I don't like it, but I'm going to pull it into a branch. I'm going to fix it up and then I will get it into the master. That's my thought.

Frank:              33:38          That's a neat one. I haven't thought about that because there have been a few prs that have just been like sitting there forever just because there's something about them I don't like or they don't merge well something something. Um, and they just sit there forever. I don't know what to do with them. Maybe even the original author is lost interests. Um, we've, we've been trying to try to have a fluent, um, class, uh, table description API in SQL lite. So you could just fluidly say like create table with column, this data type with name, you know, just all blah blah blah and code and people want that so you're not using reflection and all that and they can really control the mapping of objects to databases. I think I've had four different prs for that feature over the last, you know, 10 years or whatever it's been.

Frank:              34:29          And I've just never really loved any of them. But I want the feature so it's really complicated and I feel really terrible, um, basically every day of my life that, um, I still don't have that feature but only because I never really liked the implementations. But, um, it's one of those things where if I were to go back in time and have this lesson learned, I probably would have taken the first or second one of those and then just, you know, cleaned it up over time. I think that would've been smarter cause at least people would've had the feature by now.

James:              35:03          That's true. That is our bread is giving it to somebody or at least so someone could pull down that branch and then easily build their own new get or something like that if they really, really need, I want to experiment with it. But that's funny. I Dunno, I just, it's really interesting to talk about, I know it's really not what we were thinking about talking about today, but the more I've been doing open source, the more I've been wanting to get more people into open source and be like, hey, it's okay. Even opening an issue is like if that's a great thing to do and doing a pull request for a uh, a change in spelling is great. You know, my favorite pull requests are those, I've always said it and one of my new favorite things, I'll give a shout out to the Microsoft docs team, but all the docs, documentations, all open source and there's literally an edit button in the top right of every single doc.

James:              35:47          We've probably mentioned this a billion times, but you can give feedback and I get feedback all the time. It's like, Oh, you know, this thing is spelled wrong or this, I was like, dude, just hit the edit button. Like edit that. Like you get it done right. And like it's so easy on getup cause it's just a markdown file and that like someone will report an issue and I just go in and I hit the edit button and I just edited it. It's like pretty fantastical. Like that websites can be generated off of just this markdown file that is open source and do it. And it makes it just, it makes me jealous. I like your blog, which is now on there and you know, my blog, you know, it's behind a CRM system and things like that. So I can't get, again, have people just actively send a PR down.

James:              36:31          And that's one thing that kind of makes me jealous. World of open source. It's, it's nice when even more things are open source. It's so funny because I was just looking behind the Wikipedia edit button today. I have getting interested in some articles that I wanted the just the raw data from them and they actually have a pretty simple, um, it's, I won't call it Jason, but it kind of looks like Jason, just the way to list out some of the data in the data boxes and I love that edit button. And James, no, we haven't talked about the edit button enough because I didn't even know that the docs had an edit button up there. So are they a pretty good about taking prs? Like if I just add a paragraph or, you know, change a little thing, are they pretty receptive to that?

James:              37:13          Yeah, totally. I mean, if I look, I mean for the Xamarin docs, just the Xamarin docs, there's 575 issues that have been closed. I mean, I'm imagine these are, I mean literally today there was one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 like 20 prs, you know, little typos, little things, you know, it's pretty cool. Oh, I don't want to do little typos. I want to totally rewrite the example to do it. Do it 105 hard for it. I love this collaboration stuff. Come on. It's the best. That's what the web is best at. These little things. And Yeah, I'm having my blog on Jekyll running on get hub has probably been the best thing I've ever done for it. It's such a pleasure to work with. No.

James:              38:07          Well yell to do a blog post about how you did it so I can actually, you know, see, I'm pretty sure there's probably a billion blogs on how to do it, but it is pretty nice. I like it. That is nice and simple and it's a website that totally works and I, and I really, really like it and it'd be cool to even open source more of the podcast stuff and things like that. Even though, again, we're behind CRM systems. That's always the tricky part. It's like when you need more stuff, you know? Yeah. That's why a, it's hard to beat text files and get, it's um,

Frank:              38:36          the modern database I guess. I mean, even in the machine learning world, that's what everything is. If you want to run a neural network, it points to a get hub site. Um, even the docker community does it for everything. If you want to run a docker thing pointed at the hub docker file, so the web is running on text files, all hosted by one gigantic Corp. This is sustainable, totally sustainable. What did you call it? Get hub of the modern. What a database. I think I just called this. I'll have to go back and look at it. Whatever that is as the name of the show title. All right, frank. While this is an interesting podcast, two interest in that world. When we talk about, well this was fun idea. We had to talk about the hardware just because we both love our shiny little pieces of hardware and then we complain about open source because that's what we do.

Frank:              39:29          James, whenever we're together, we can point about open source wasn't really a complaint last night you said that we were complaining about. I don't think we were complaining. I think we're being, we're just, we're being ourselves. It's okay to be yourself. Everything is positive. Everything's wonderful. How's that song go? What is it? Everything's great. Everything's awesome. Everything's awesome. Geez. I had two tries and I still didn't get it. Everything is Austin's James. Okay. All right frank, I think that's going to do it for this week's pod. Thanks again to our sponsor, Reagan. Thanks everyone for listening to us rambling on. We're getting real close to episode one 60. Thank goodness. We'll do lightning talks and you can tell us what you want to listen about. I got a few on my mind. I'm really excited, but we'll be back next week. And of course if, uh, um, yeah, I guess, I guess the Dev summit is over. So if you saw us at Dev summit, thanks for hanging out with those things are being awesome. That was totally fine. Thanks. I had a great time. Great Conference. You have fun, Frank. I had fun. Ah, yeah, but the heat in Texas, man. Whew. Let's go and get ya. Alright. Alright, thanks everyone for tuning in until next week. I'm James Monte Mag now

Frank:              40:38          and I'm Frank Krueger. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 4:          40:51          [inaudible].