James:              00:07          Frank quick little update here because I know everybody is clamoring to know how my new office spaces,

Frank:              00:15          Ooh. Yet again at new office space. Uh, is this going to be report on whether the beautiful construction you created last time, whether it's survived or is this another different office?

James:              00:27          Yes, no, that is correct. We did an entire episode on office spaces and clean up, I'll put it in the show notes below. Of course. However, you know at that time I had just gone through a v one rev of the new office space, cleaning up the cables, doing all the things, putting all the things in the right place and you know, just taking all those cables and making them all nice and bundled up and out of sight, out of mind. And also putting in monitor arms. Do you remember that?

Frank:              00:55          Ooh, yes. This is the good stuff here. This is when you become a real professional. I haven't actually gotten myself to this level, so I'm a little bit jealous.

James:              01:05          Yeah. I about a month ago put in one of the monitor arms because it was kind of an undertaking. You got dismantle it. You got to put the vesa mounting correctly and for one person

Frank:              01:15          heavy, they're, they're big and heavy. You don't realize until you're like installing I'm, you're like, Geez. Well I guess it is lifting this like 30 pound thing.

James:              01:23          How heavy is your monitor? Uh, I have a, I have one 23 inch in one 25 inch. But I mean, you know, there's still like 10 they're still 10 ish pounds I guess. I don't know her. Yeah, but we'll call it 10 but you're, you know, you have to screw it into the back while you're holding up the front and like it doesn't, you know, I had ad of how their, how Heather helped me out, but I had done one just as a trial run and I started, I really enjoyed it. You can move it around, you can tilt it, you can very free form. And they were nice monitors so they had very deluxe stands and it took a while for me to get around to the second one just because I'm lazy. But I will tell you this much after I put up the first one, it was so nice because you can just slide everything underneath all the cords are and align.

James:              02:08          I did the other one last night and a frank, I have so much space on my desk. It is beautiful. The everything, nothing has changed really at all. Besides I put it in these arms, everything is clean for the most part. I have a little bit more stuffed monkeys around. I've organized my devices and cables with little Keeble organizer, things that like stick to the desk and it's so quick update is everything is going great and I couldn't highly recommend going through a revamp like this. Um, if you're looking at your desk and you're like, oh, like this,

Frank:              02:43          well I don't like mine. James. I'm totally jealous. Um, I bought a vesa mount for my Imac, but I haven't yet gotten an arm. I am worried it's more than 10 pounds. The little guys heavy. Uh, but I am totally jealous. But just to put a curse on you, I assume that all those wires are going to be a mess under your monitor though. They'll become messy again, but super jealous of you for now. Yeah, they will. They will definitely become messy, unfortunately. Cables or cables and that's what they do. But you know what, where you don't need cables, frank. Where's that? James? The Internet of things. Oh ha ha ha. Just kidding. There's cables everywhere. Are we doing an Internet of things episode? Wow. I said those words, they're harder to say than I thought. There are things of the Internet and those things need to be programmed. Frank. They do. They do. Um, I've had to reluctantly start calling everything I do with embedded systems, iot stuff so that I can talk to people. So I took a very broad definition of iot devices and in my life I have, uh, the echo device attached to a few random electronics I have, but most specifically I like to make robots and I'm going to throw it robots under the Iot device category. Well, yeah, you, you think about, you know, embedded and compact systems and is running.net or other, you know,

James:              04:14          libraries on little devices and we've been in been embedding windows, the windows embeddable embedding the embeddable system or whatever and you had like, you know, compact on it framework. And we've had, you know, an evolution of walled. There were, you know, boards and things that went into other devices and they were somewhat connected to the Internet. I think that's the big kicker is the connected to the internet part of it. And now what we're doing is we've shrunk those down exponentially to be tiny where they can run not only all of the.net stack, but in some cases windows itself. And you can develop unique kind of scenarios for those different devices. And you think, and I think, well as a.net developer, we have the.net, you know, compact framework for a long time. And then there was like windows 10 Iot core that came out to be the thing. But sometimes frank, you just run a run.net on a little device and you want it to blank. And it seems as if there's more possibilities out there today, not just from the.net team but from other developers. And I figured we could maybe chit chat about that and maybe some of the things you're doing in that landscape.

Frank:              05:31          That sounds absolutely wonderful. So yeah, the thing that I'm kind of interested in right now is.net core trying to run on these devices and um, specifically dot nets iot thing. But James, let's take a trip down memory lane cause that's fun. It's always fun. Right. Have you ever heard of Windows XP embedded? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Wow. What were you doing with that?

James:              05:59          Well, you know, I used to work in, um, not manufacturing, but printer development and all of those printers. We had boxes and things embedded inside of them. I'm not going to give away trade secrets, but there was definitely different components in the factories and different parts where they were using a windows embedded or whatever, whatever that was. That's how I knew of it. Yeah.

Frank:              06:26          Oh a so I thought I was going to trip you up there because in the past I used windows CE for this stuff. This is going pretty far back, but windows CE was the, mm. It wasn't even the NT colonel. It was a weird kernel. And so we're device but it ran on those cool PC one oh four. Do you remember that hardware form factor? No. Uh, it was basically a PC and Intel, so all the standard parts except shrunk down into a little square and they were cute. I, I'm much bigger than the raspberry Pi these days. Took a lot more power but they were, are kind of small pcs back in the day, you know, they ran it 400 megahertz, that kind of stuff. And you ran windows CE on it and at one point, um, they even got windows XP embedded running on that kind of hardware. So that's where we started out in this.net world.

James:              07:22          Very nice. I remember the, a lot of what I remember is around not only with the windows XP embedded, but the media center edition, which is a lot that I worked at when I worked with Seton, getting into the set top box, a space that's what was very, very popular. And where I remember not only working on the embedded systems too is the windows XP embedded and other things where, you know, they were in like a tms and phone booths. And for me I was in that set top box and um, um, area and of course the printer software, you'd have kiosks that were embedded and little screens and at that time they were more like kind of microcomputers of some part almost. They just had, they had a screen interface on them from what I remember, but often now they don't or could.

Frank:              08:10          Yeah. Wow. Thank God technology has advanced. I bet you a bunch of those were PC one oh four, uh, things, well, what does PC one o four now that I've gone up and around and about your question to me, Oh, again, it's just that motherboard layout. It's just a very small motherboard. So you're just squeezing lots of PC hardware. Uh, maybe non-intel chips but still running xad six onto a thing. So it was our first attempt at making like a PC class, uh, you know, heavy duty computer down into the smaller world. Ah, okay, Gotcha, Gotcha. Never stackable. It was very cute. You know, it was the predecessor to basically raspberry pie and everything we're doing nowadays. I love, I love, I love little computers that you can a stack and like

James:              08:56          little chips and boards that like stack all up like Legos, you know?

Frank:              09:00          Yeah. And there was tons of crazy hardware you could buy for these things cause it was a pretty big industry. And so just like now I'm, whenever I'm bored I just go onto Amazon and I searched raspberry Pi devices and I just look at all the like different little add ons you can get. And the same thing applies, applied back then they were just way more expensive. You need to go through like sales channels.

James:              09:25          So we're in a new world of Iot Frank. So now that we're, are we done with memory lane lane? Are we in the new world of Iot? Can we talk about it?

Frank:              09:34          Yeah, yeah. Thanks for letting me go down it. So yeah, now we're in the Amazon world where you can buy five analog sensors for $5 and it gets shipped to you within two hours and you can just lego these things together all day long. And now

James:              09:53          I know of the Raspberry Pi, which is the most popular one out there. There's like, um, what else is out there though when you buy these little things?

Frank:              10:02          Well, when you talk about the stuff, you always talk about power classes. So how much power does the device take? So kind of at the low end, you have the Arduinos, um, in the middle range you don't have too many options, but you have the old net Duino and the soon coming out, uh, metal boards. So there's like a bid range there. Then, uh, and there's, uh, a lot of players in that mid range. And, um, that also includes these awesome little chips, uh, that sp 82 66 and that SB 32 terrible names change, but they're a such, they're, they're cheap little chips. They're cool.

James:              10:49          Got It. I believe, I hear Sue's always talking about this on her twitch stream. She's, because she's does a lot of like Java scripty things and she's always talking about like these weird names, like I don't know what she's talking about, but seems like she's always doing cool stuff.

Frank:              11:01          Well, the cool thing about them was they're just so cheap. Um, for $8 you can have a Wifi device that also has Bluetooth for running on it. And it's, it's the old days of embedded systems. Yoni have, you know, I don't even remember, but call it a hundred k to work with, of memory I should say. And you generally write your programs and see these are the low power devices. They take a hundred millions to 300 Milli amps depending on what they're doing. But they're cool, fun, fun. A lot of people can do a lot with them just because they're so cheap. You can put a battery on them and they last forever. Then moving up the scale. Now you have the raspberry Pi and um, every major chip manufacturer has something like a raspberry Pi that you can go buy. Got It. Got

James:              11:54          It. And I see there's like a lot of starter kits that you can buy two. I kind of have a bunch of things in it. I know we, uh, you know, friend of the show, um, uh, Kristan edge, he, you know, put together a kit with the metaphor that you were kind of talking about. And there's, there's more than just the board. You need the breadboard and the lights and the monitors and the SDN, the Bluetooth chips and other things and kind of constructing those things together if you desire. Um, and then they need to like run stuff too, I assume.

Frank:              12:25          Yeah. Um, well you quickly get into the device driver life, you know, for all these little devices you want to attach to your main device, you need a way to talk to them, which is basically device drivers, but we don't really have operating systems. So it's all kind of fun and weird. But, um, I want to give, I want to give a shout out to another board though that's kind of like a raspberry Pi. Do you mind and then go for it? Yeah, it's your show, Frank Ha my show. Um, Invidia James the GPU people, um, they have a board called the Jetson and this one's claim to fame is, it's basically a GPU on the smallest form factor. You can get it without, you know, blowing up circuits and causing fires or anything like that. But the idea is the shrink down Gpu specifically for machine learning and AI. Doesn't that sound fun? So you have something raspberry Pi sized generally the same power envelope but able to execute neuronetworks networks very quickly. That's very cool. I remember that

James:              13:33          Google was working on the tensor flow like module or whatever that they have in there. Like a really, they looked small at least, but they were very like focused in on creating stuff for, uh, AI

Frank:              13:47          machine learning in general to run tensorflow. Yeah. Actually you nailed it right there. I think. Um, there was just a tensor flow. Um, conference or something, announcements, I don't think, you know, something like that. And they were just mentioning, uh, they have a smaller version of the library called tensorflow lite and that's actually what runs on all of this embedded hardware because they can't quite seem to get all the functions are from tensorflow running in hardware on these devices. But it's still a nice step in the right direction.

James:              14:22          Yeah, I like that. I, I I one day want to be able to be, become an iot expert. I mean, I'm a.net developer and I know that there's dot net code that can be run on these devices and yeah, want to create robots and I want to create little devices that can measure temperatures and can trigger other things and can be combined with my other c sharp and dot and Nettie skills like Azure functions that trigger something and Iot then does something else. I'm like Wiz, like everything is amazing and connected. Right. You know, that's, I want to, you know, and I twitch stream, like, you know, it, it tells me and it knows how long and then it pours water into my mouth and then it triggers something. And then the chats like, yeah, James, you're so awesome. You know, and that's kind of what I want one day. Can I do that? Frank? How do I do that?

Frank:              15:10          I you're, you're making me think of, um, the youtube channel that's like terrible robots or something. Uh, I forget her name. This woman, she, she makes these awesome robots that do the most terrible things. Like she had one that was supposed to feed her cereal and it just kept smacking her in the head. No, no. It's great. It's funnier than it sounds, but she's, she's doing it on purpose, but it's hilarious. But she's making these contraptions kind of like you just described. Um, I'd recommend to people, uh, yes, do that. The bigger your mouse trap, the more complex

James:              15:44          eight it is, the better it's going to be. Absolutely. For sure. Well, I want to talk about exactly what type of code we can run on these devices, but let's take a break really quick and thank our sponsor this week, Ray gun. Listen, frank, are you struggling to replicate the bugs and performance issues that you have in your apps? Frank, I know this is true.

Frank:              16:03          I totally do. My apps have to run on a million, billion different devices with a million, billion different operating systems. I'm at a loss. James help.

James:              16:11          Well, all you gotta do is Plug Reagan into your web and mobile applications to help you diagnose problems in minutes rather than hours you can kiss goodbye, having to dig through. Log files are lying on frustrated user reports and reading. Those ones are abused. No one wants to do that. You can make your software development life so much easier. With Reagan's air crash and performance monitoring tools, every single developer and software team in the world deserves to be able to create flawless software experiences for their customers. With ease. With Reagan, you can go to [inaudible] dot com slash merge conflict to learn more and get a free trial to start integrating Reagan into your applications today. Thanks for Reagan for sponsoring this episode of merge conflict. Thanks Ray. Gun. Yeah. Yes. I will fix my performance. James. I will. You better. You better do it right. So what can we know the boards, there's a bunch of boards that are cool. I'm a.net developer. What can I do now?

Frank:              17:10          Well, we've always actually had a lot of options. Like I mentioned the net do we know from before? From its name, you might've guessed that ran.net. Um, but uh oh. And then on the raspberry Pi side, we've actually been able to run mano on there for a little while. But James, do you know what the cool stuff is these days? Is that those, that neck car? So what's happening, which is really fun, is um, dot net core is getting a set of Iot Api Apis to talk to all those little devices that you buy off of Amazon to plug into here, a raspberry Pi and all of that. And it's a big deal. I'm very excited about it. We have to dig in a little.

James:              17:59          Yeah, and this is specifically, you know our, our main man rich lander who I've talked to and he's demoed a lot of blinking lights, a lot of blinking lights, frank, so many blinking lights. But he was really excited because he is got really into it. And you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds as if you know don at core itself runs today on Mac windows and Linux. And the idea here is that the.net core runtime would be extended to specific kind of Iot platforms or hardware specific such as maybe the raspberry pi or the beagle bone or the humming board, uh, that are out there today because those are supporting maybe arm 32 or arm 64 or certain types of platforms. But on top of that though, you would be able to run.net code but then access the device specific hardware through a set of Donna Api APIs called system device Gpio, which you'll have to tell me exactly what it is. I'm assuming IEO is input output. I'm only guessing. Guess Pin, pin input output, general purpose input output. Nailed it. You got, oh Ding, Ding, ding, Ding, Ding. You win something. Wow. So that could, that would allow me to access all of the things and all of the whatever. But what they would be doing is almost like the Xamarin essentials for these devices. Is that kind of accurate representation?

Frank:              19:40          Yeah. Uh, that was good. I didn't think of that analogy before. So I'm prof the thing is, yeah, the Xamarin essentials for devices. I like that they should take it, run with it. Um, I want to clarify one thing that you said before though. Uh, that is you when you were talking about the runtime dotnet core running on all these devices, everything you said was correct for.net core two. We got a new feature in dotnet core three though. And this is super cool. You can run the Sdk on these devices now also, that means Ms Build, c sharp, all of that. Uh, so it was a weird situation in the past. James, if I was on my raspberry Pi, I would use the Mano compiler to compile my code and then run it in.net core a little bit funny. Huh. And uh, I emailed rich and I'm like, dude, where's the SDK? He's like, dude, it's really slow. And I'm like, it's fine. Whatever. I just want to be able to do it on device, you know? So I'm very happy that would dotnet core three, uh, the SDK is available, not just the run time,

James:              20:49          it very inter resting. So you could, would it then be connected to an idea of sorts or you in like some weird terminal

Frank:              21:00          problems connected to, do you actually want to know how I do my setup? This is a little digression. Yeah, sure. No, sure. Sure. He's questioning now. Uh, so on the raspberry Pi itself, the next box, and I do, um, a network share of a directory, my code directory, so that way I can use my favorite tech editors on my Mac and just edit the code directly. So normally you would be right, you would be shelled into it and you'd use vi or something. But I'm too old for that. What my ids. So I just mapped my network drive and then I do have a shell open so that I can run.net build all that stuff. But I should also give a shout out that, um, at least visual studio for Mac, I'm sorry, I don't know. Visual Studio for Windows story here. Uh, they have this iot integration where right from the ide you can debug on device. So just like we do, uh, I phoned about men or android development, you're doing it but with a raspberry Pi and it's super tricky.

James:              22:10          That's cool. Yeah, I like that. Um, the idea of just plugging in and I had done some that we know work and that's sort of how it was yet. Install a bunch of things. You get it to work and you are compiling locally and kind of pushing the, the final package over, but that seems a lot nicer. And for the fact that in those worlds, everything was very minimal. Right? Uh, and you had to do very specific hardware, but it sounds like this is opening up the opportunities to go to all sorts of different devices.

Frank:              22:42          Yeah. But some works on the raspberry Pi in addition to the Invideo Jetson, an event in addition to whatever Intel, Edison, I forget what they call theirs. All the chip makers have their own, so that it's, um, that's probably the coolest part of.net core three for me. But finally, let's talk about, um, these devices, how you were talking about the Xamarin essentials for devices. Yeah. Yeah. So the problem here is that any manufacturer can just make a new chip, put it on a board, put it on Amazon or Ebay or Alibaba, anything, and it does something cool and all sudden you're like, Hey, I want my device to have that feature in that. So you buy it and then you realize that it communicates with a weird serial protocol and all this weird stuff. And so that's a situation that a lot of Iot people and robot people, um, fall into. Can you imagine that? Like just random electronics off Internet, but it's fun.

James:              23:47          It's fun in quotes. Yeah, I could imagine that. Well, I imagine that every single time that you, yeah. By anything, you never know. If it's going to work, is it going to be compatible? It's the, it's in a way of when I build a computer, I have to do tons of research ahead of time. Like does this Ram match with this board and does this board match with this thing and we'll this power, is this enough power? Is this the thing? And this is the sink configure with this thing and does it work? And then five years later, I hope I can find those parts that I bought five years ago because they don't exist anymore.

Frank:              24:17          Oh, you just described it perfectly. Take that, multiply it by 10 repeat 10 times a year. Yup. It's a hobby, James. It's a healthy hobby. Yeah. So the cool thing here though is, um, in addition to, as you mentioned, this GPIO thing, that's, we consider that a very low level protocol that's just blinking an led on its binary on off stuff. Pretty boring to be honest. Um, so this library, this, uh, dot net slash Iot library has a bunch of code specifically designed to interface with all these random electronics out there. Earlier in the episode, I call them drivers because that's essentially what they are, except in this case they're more like user mode drivers. They're not running in the kernel, they're not running in Linux, they're running in your code. But the cool thing is we have a big library of them. Neat. Okay.

James:              25:17          Yeah. Gimme all of the things. So if I want to do essentially anything on the different devices I can, I can do. And I was looking at the list on get hub. Now I don't know all of these things, but they all have weird super names like HTS two to one, which is a capacitive digital sensor for relative humidity and temperature. Yup. They have the MCP two three x, x, x Io expander. Sounds delightful. The s h t three x temperature and humidity sensor. So these are all like bindings to a specific device basically. Is that correct?

Frank:              25:54          Yeah. So what you're doing is you think the low level hardware in the raspberry Pi or the net tweet know, you know, or the meadow, whatever it is and that low level hardware, it's just binary on off, you know, that kind of stuff. And these are nice friendly Api Apis, you know, this tests your API design, how friendly can you make this piece of hardware. And it's a difficult task. Some of this hardware is actually very complicated, you know, uh, that temperature and humidity sensor, it does temperature and humidity, but it also does like six other things that no one ever talks about. So there's always this like, um, how good do you make this code? And um, yeah, just how good, you know, how many features do you expose and how friendly do you make the interface. But you know, discussing those funny names as you to call them. I've been doing this for so long, I actually recognize pretty much all of these names. That's a little sick.

James:              26:51          Well, my favorite so far is this adx l three, four five accelerometer seems pretty sweet.

Frank:              26:57          Yeah. Yeah. You definitely want one of those. But I prefer the NPUs over those. I want a gyro with my Xcel ramen or so the LSM 90 s is kind of my jam. That's my jam. James.

James:              27:11          Kind of like a iot expert as such a your thing, I don't know why you haven't switched careers yet, frank.

Frank:              27:17          Well, so the reason I'm so interested in this library is back in the day I worked on another library just like this called monkey robotics and we had the exact same goal, um, of just supporting as much random hardware out there as you can find the differences. Um, we were coding to, uh, what did they call it? The micro framework, the dotnet micro framework. James, is that its name? I believe it was that, yes. Let's go with that. If it's, if it's this funny one that was like, I think it started out on the watch, the spot watch. Um, yeah, so all of that code was written for that. But the neat thing is, um, we'll be able to merge that kind of code into this, uh, dot net stuff, which is, I think it's all just dot standard as far as I know. So technically you could kind of get it to work on your Mac or your windows computer also. Um, but uh, it's just nice to see everyone concentrating their effort on one thing and Microsoft has enough backing to push this along. It's just nice to see that effort.

James:              28:30          Yeah, it's a huge effort from the.net team and it makes a lot of sense because I was asking you, I said, didn't the windows team, I didn't, we already have this? And you're like, yes. And you're like, and you're like, it's windows 10 Iot core and that is, and I said, what's the difference? And you're like, wow. The difference there of course is that you're running windows, you have to run windows on those devices and it's to bring over a slimmed down version of windows that only be to run Iot side. So the devices, which is great if, if you are buying that specific hardware or want to do that. However you may have used cases where you know what, you just don't want to reflash or do anything like that, but you just want this slim down device, different devices that can support on it. Um, code. And I'd imagine that there's probably interoperability from reading the documentation between this.net core and the windows 10 Iot core from what I've seen. At least

Frank:              29:29          that would be very smart of them. I really hope they did it. So I hope it's shipped. I'm pretty sure it's ship as it, that net standard library that just has platform specific stuff. So on windows, I think it just uses the UWP so we should give a fall shout out to UWP because I think they did a really good job with it. I was really surprised more than anything else to see that Uwm, you WP included an Iot library. They did the low level stuff. They didn't work on this high level stuff. As we're talking this device support, uh, you know, darn, that was the first kind of standard API for low level hardware sense. Um, Ardwino basically it was a good competitor to Arduino and they have a really good experience. If you run the Iot version of windows 10 on the raspberry pie instead of Linux, you get full debugging, everything works pretty darned well. Uh, you just have to code your app as a UWP APP.

James:              30:31          Yeah. Which isn't, which isn't too bad. I've run many of them and in fact you can just put a button down and you can click a button and if you have, you know, some sort of Ui that you can go into, you can interact with an APP APP that you're building was XAML on a device, which is kind of freaking cool.

Frank:              30:48          Yeah, it is. Um, and I think if you plug a screen into it, yeah, you can render all of this ammo and I think like touchscreens work. So it's a really quick way to bring up your own kiosk or anything like that. I think it really is a good experience. I'm sure there's some licensing to pay for windows they're brought. Um, yeah. Um, I don't know. For me though, I guess I'm just old fashioned. I like my Linux. I don't, I like my shells so used to it that, uh, I'm just happy to have all this richness coming over there.

James:              31:23          Do you think that for, for, for a long time, Iot, I don't really have seen as a.net developers getting, I think it had been interested in it, and I could be reading this wrong, but I never felt as if it was a platform that was super FirstClass and it, is this an indication that this is sort of changing in your mind or how do you feel about that?

Frank:              31:47          Yeah. Um, there's a few factors at play here. Um, like industry adoption of it versus the maturity of the library. There are Kinda two different things from a maturity of the library standpoint. I would use this in a heartbeat if I was an industry. Most people in industry are writing really, really bad c plus plus code. I've looked at it, I've read it, I've tried to translate it to c sharp, it's bad bugs everywhere and this is running on little supposedly critical devices. You know, we don't want them to be hacked or anything. So I think technologically. Dot. Netspend and ready on these devices for the last eight years. But now it's really getting some, you know, good buy in with Microsoft in this space. But I do want to mention, um, that power spectrum thing again and this is hardware side of it. Um, device manufacturers are cheap. They don't want to pay anything for their hardware. The cheaper the hardware, the better. That means the slower the hardware, the less memory. All those are pros, all that. Yes, please. And so I'm running.net which has higher performance requirements as we've discussed before. Not Technically, but you know that garbage collector takes time. Other things take time. Um, in general we've had to run it on more powerful hardware, more expensive hardware. And that's been unfortunate. Fortunately though, the industry is catching up and got nets able to run on smaller hardware.

James:              33:21          It's a beautiful time to be a done and develop. Reza. I always like to say frank to saying I like, I like to see it as it as it goes. And you're, I think the maturity level of not only the devices but the frameworks to, and the runtimes are starting to reach out into all sorts of directions, uh, that now the hardware and software can sort of align up. Right. And early on in to any of this, usually you fall into that state where everything is so early, so you're hacking everything together and just trying to make it all work. And then as things take time and we get there and then it's hopefully easier going, I don't want to say easy going, right? I mean, I don't think a mobile APP development 10 years ago compared to now

Frank:              34:09          pretty different. Yeah. And you know what? This one still has a lot of random cables plugged into a lot of random things. People have these beautiful blog posts where they organize the cables and took a beautiful picture, but that's never what it looks like when you're building these things. Hopefully you build it. It's a rat's nest and then you clean it up and he put in a box and you'd take it together and you hope you never have to touch it ever again. Okay. But that's kind of, I mean that's the hobby side of it. The nice thing though is if you ever do wish to get more advanced, you can make a circuit boards very easily these days. You can get plastic parts manufactured very easily these days, but that's taken the hobby to the next level. And I haven't even dared to go there.

James:              34:54          Well, at a minimum you can use that fancy three d printer to print off a fancy three d case for your bar board. And so then just stop there.

Frank:              35:01          I do. Don't worry about that. I got lots of cases, lots of little robot potties. But James, I just thought of something terrible. Uh, want to hear terrible. Okay. So they do have a little display library, this.net iot library. So you can plugin and LCD or something like that. It's cool. I've seen demos. They're fun. We could get Samara forms working on it. Great. Do it. I'm into it, let's get it done. Get it done. Okay. It's a terrible idea, but a thought, thought provoking could technically do it while the world of Iot still in

James:              35:38          a kind of like a wonderful, who knows where anything can go on, what can happen in the world of Iot. So we'll see what happens. I'm excited about this. I'm excited to see if we hear anything build up coming, which is just a month away, which is crazy. And of course, you know, the, the Donna teams, uh, and all the products around it usually do like a. Dot net comp and I think it's going to be an excited 2019 and we're only three months in so far. So

Frank:              36:05          yeah. Uh, we haven't gone through the summer of chaos yet, or the summer of love, whatever we're going to call it this year. So whatever it is freaking out because of android Q and Ios. What, 1415 I think 15 and a half.

James:              36:21          22 ios 22. It's a less, less, uh,

Frank:              36:27          morning skew. Morphic, you know, we decided, yeah, blinky lights everywhere. I'm into it.

James:              36:35          Do at, I'm ready, frank. And my body is ready. All right. Well, anything else you want to talk about Iot?

Frank:              36:40          No, that was a lot of fun. Thanks for letting me to chat about devices.

James:              36:44          I'm a, I'm a big fan of, I don't know anything about this topic helped me, frank, so perfect. All right, well thanks everyone for tuning in and you can of course give your feedback on the show by heading to merge conflict.fm and hit that little contact button. You can find us on Twitter at bricklayer. I'm at Jean's, Monta Magneto, and that merge conflict FM. We love hearing from our listeners, things going to do for this week. Thanks to our sponsor ray gun. Go to reagan.com to learn more about their awesome tools to help you build apps better and faster by monitoring them.

James & Frank:      37:13          That's it. I'm James Montemagno and I'm Frank Krueger, thanks for listening.