Speaker 1: 00:07 [inaudible] James: 00:07 this week's podcast. Let's thank one of our good friends over at tellerik progress. The awesome team over at Tellerik has been building world-class components for your applications for years. Whether you're building a web app, desktop app or mobile app, they have a tellerik UI for you. They recently just shipped the Tellerik UI for Blazer. That's right, the blazer applications. You now have a rich set of web UI components designed specifically for Blazer, so you can add all that goodness straight from c sharp. If you're building Xamarin apps while the teller UI for Xamarin has you covered, you can get to all your charts, graphs, all the things that you would expect. Well, they also have a brand new pdf view or control pop up controls and new doc layout control and so, so much more. All you gotta do to get started, it goes to tellerik.com that's it, telerik.com and you can press all of their controls. Thanks to tell her for sponsoring this week's pod. All right, frank, with that out of the way, let's get into it. What are we talking about? Today was a holiday here. Yeah. One of July 4th. Frank: 01:08 It's an American holiday, but it's uh, it's the good one. It's the one where everyone likes off explosives and eats picnic food. It's the best holiday. James: 01:17 That's true. Did you have a good time? Frank: 01:19 I did. I went to Portland, Oregon. Well, I didn't go to Portland, Oregon. I went near a Mount Hood, Oregon, set up by a river, drank a lot, ate a lot of delicious food. Sat out in the sun. It was pretty amazing. James: 01:32 America, man. We said that a lot. It's a good time to be a redneck America. Ah, yeah. I also had a good time. I did the traditional, drank a beer. We went down to the local brewery down the road. My sister and brother law came over. The four of us hung out. Just talked a bunch. Uh, it was nice. We didn't watch the fireworks here in Seattle. There's the big gasworks. We used to walk. We would walk by your house to get to them. We did not do that this year. It's, it's too, it's too much. You know, there's too many people. I'm old and cranky. Frank: 02:06 Yeah. Actually, I'm just leaving. The city was amazing. The exodus from Seattle of people leaving town and it took forever to get down to Oregon. Normally it's like a three or four hour drive and it took like seven hours because it was just everyone leaving this city. But no worries. You know, you kind of expect it. I'm curious where the breweries pretty crazy or had people left town. James: 02:32 No, it was super, super chill and I think everyone left town. I mean there were some people in and out throughout the night, were there for a few hours, but mostly really chill. But I will say this, it's funny that you drove south to Portland and really busy. I actually, Heather and I, we did one of the most patriotic things that we could possibly do on the 4th of July. Frank: 02:53 Uh, boy, you got me here. Most patriotic thing you could do. I don't know, man. James: 03:00 What do you got? We spent our afternoon at the u s customs and Border Agency and in Blaine, Washington. Oh, okay. Um, where are you protesting something? What were you doing at the border? No. So we decided that, um, we were going to drive up there because my global entry, Aka my TSA precheck and getting in and out of the country and nexus program had expired and I needed it renewed. And last weekend when we were also in Oregon, funnily enough, uh, I got the email that said, hey, it's go time. You can schedule your interview in quotes because they ask you like two questions and they just give you a stamp. Um, they said you can schedule this. I said, this is going to be great. So I look at Seatac and the next available appointment, September, 2019. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So, um, you did your patriotic bureaucracy, citizenship stuff, papers please. James: 03:59 That's fun. Uh, actually on the fourth, they were open on the fourth. I can't believe that they were open on the forth, the u s border and customs and Blaine, which is very close to the piece arches going into up to Vancouver. Uh, yeah, everyone was super nice. It was really chill. I was the only person there. It took five minutes and then we drove down and we just kind of, we did, we kind of like explore the countryside of northern Washington. We just started making stops randomly at like random malls and robbin random shopping centers. We went to the outlets, we got some food. It was quite enjoyable. It was quite enjoyable. I was a little worried though that you thought you were going to continue on to Canada to celebrate the 4th of July, but it's good to hear. Um, you, I'll flip through the American thing. James: 04:41 I go into casinos. We were so, so close. Um, over at Tulalip we stopped at the outlets, which are right next to the casino and you know, me and casinos, I like to try to stay far away or I'll says bad news bears for me. So we did not go, you know, the, the problem I mostly have with going into conceive nose, uh, is just that a lot of them tend to be smokey. Now. I don't know if they have the Tulalip ones and the other like Michael Tor, smokey, but they are very beautiful establishments. Yeah. You know, I've only been in them once and I honestly can't remember if they're smokey. I love casinos but I never go. I don't know what it is. I hate gambling cause I know I, I, I'm, I get addicted quickly so I have to stay away too. I'm very competitive and I hate losing so I'm not allowed at anywhere near casinos but I still love him. James: 05:33 I love him to death. Yeah. Well you and I, that's our next trip together. Let's do it. I'm ready. Well I figured, you know, this is kind of an off topic week for us. Just kind of like, you know, off the cuff doing the, doing the podcast. We don't really crazy serious topics, but I did want to talk about a phenomenon that just occurred before the podcast because you had the opportunity of a, which was to buy an air flight ticket from spirit airlines and I would like for you to, to to relay back that experience, but also in the developer mind that you have. I thought it'd be fun to talk about the gamification and the loopholes that you had to go through to get that airline ticket and the UX that you just experienced. Frank: 06:22 Yeah. Okay. So this is going to be parts making fun of how bad I am at using apps. It turns out, I don't know, like I'm just a bad user. I think sometimes I get frustrated so easily. I want an app to just do the one thing and do it quickly. And the modern technique of upselling, marketing this and that. It's something we've all been dealing with on the Internet, but I'm really bad at it, James. In fact, you had to guide me through it cause I'm like, what do I click next? All the buttons are blinking at me and there's dollar signs everywhere. I just want a flight. So yeah, somehow we're gonna turn terrible UX into a episode. Let's tear this thing apart. So let's not just make fun of spirit. Spirit is just a symptom of the grander disease. There are millions of airlines, especially throughout Europe. I love all the cheap airlines throughout Europe that do all the same crazy upselling, but gamification. Is it gamification? I guess it is because they have these like combos and knock combos. Tell me more. James: 07:30 It, it, it felt like a combo, you know what I mean? It felt like a, it felt like gamification because they used sort of the words that I experienced in Pokemon go where I go into the store and like, oh, should I buy like this like box, like what's in this? Like do I know? Is that, is it a better deal? Is it not? Or better to like what is the value of this? And you are right. Like I've flown easy jet, Wiz Air, um, frontier, uh, all these new sun country now is one of these, uh, more budget airlines. And they're all very similar. But I thought that the spirit experience was very interesting because you just selected a flight and you didn't enter any information, you didn't know how much anything was. And there was a combo like packaged deal Frank: 08:12 right in front of your face attempting one, two because um, I've gone through these things before and they have that wonderful trick of making the Combo. So you know, there's all the add ons you can get for your flight. The Combo packages, those all up 80 bucks jas, 80 bucks, and you're like, that's a lot of money. I'm only spending 300 something on this ticket. Why would I spend another $80 third of your flight for a Combo. Yeah. But then you realize after you've gone through clickety clickety for 10 minutes, that that combos actually kind of fair, fairly scare quotes, all that stuff. Because, um, the moment you pick this one feature at $60 and then a second and it all sounds, puts you over $80 and then w like the game, you're like, Oh God, I Hope I had a save game. Like 10 episodes, you know, 10 levels ago because I have to hit the back button a million times. Frank: 09:06 And you and I kept going through. Like I kept debating whether I wanted to stay an extra day on this trip. And honestly it was coming down to, I don't know if I had a save game for back when I could still change the day, you know, I don't want to have to restart this whole game. It was a lot of work to get to this point. It is once you're in, you're committed at that point. It's funny, we talked about going to the casino, we call it like, you know, you're playing poker, you're pot committed. Once I was, I was following along with you as you did the spirit airline, a checkout process, the airline checkout process. And I feel as if as soon as I filled in my information, which didn't have the greatest autofill, you know, from your, your browser fill in, it kind of works, but not 100%. Frank: 09:50 Uh, and it was a good looking website. I give spirit credit. It looks pretty nice once you enter that information. I kind of felt like I'm committed. Like there's no going back at this point. Like I am ready to take my money. No. Okay. I got a, sorry. Yes, I agree with most of what you just said, but I'm taking an exception. This is a terribly designed UI website. It looks good to you because you see simple colors, big fonts, a simple, there's simplicity, big fonts, simple colors, simple fonts. But the problem is everything looks like everything else. It's just as deluge of questions and um, boxes. It's, it's a form. It feels just like filling out an IRS form. And for that I think they do a terrible job. There are much tighter ways to present all this stuff. I was kind of going through this when I was working on my campaign website of um, how do you make a non-intimidating looking form? Frank: 10:47 And I think you can do that with typography by making some sections a slightly different font, you know, make them a little bit smaller here, differentiate things. So, you know, this is the money section. This is the, oops, I want to add more features section, but instead it's just this block in your face. Giant modern web 2.0 ugliness. So what, let's start there. Um, this, just because the design is clean doesn't mean it's good. That's a good point. That's a good point. And I didn't really think about that. It did look clean. It looked, it looked modern. I guess that is sort of won me over. They were able to use rounded corners and like you said, big Nice Fonts and nice colors. It didn't, it felt like a, should I say it? Web 2.0 webs, whatever that means nowadays, but it didn't feel like they are using the latest bootstrap. Frank: 11:41 Let's just say that. Yeah. And it has those subtle animations, but in the end it's information spread out in a uniform manner. That's hard to comprehend. What things mean when it says Wednesday, July 10th, it literally says the words Wednesday, July 10th where it could show an icon. You know, there, there's so many better things you could do with this to make, well, whatever their goal is to quickly get you through that form so they can get you to the upsell windows. But I think that upsell windows lose out because they also have that same form look to them. So you know, if the upsells were something kind of fun or kind of game yes, we're kind of saying I think they could even do better, but just, you know, graphic design wise don't make your upselling look like the form to that just makes it depressing. James: 12:31 Yeah. And when we talk about user experience, especially on this website, it brought me back to doing user experience studies and seeing how people use my mobile applications. And I've done user experience testing. Uh, one of my old friends, um, um, um, husband did UX and I did some of his studies for him were funnily enough, it was actually an airline website that I was doing UX studies for any of the, the, you see these all the time. I get paid $50 or get a gift card. Did you use that UX study? And it's quite fun because it's a website in development and the biggest problem that I had with the website was not the data entry part. To me it was that next screen, that upsells screen because there were so many things fighting with each other. There was this is, this is what's free, but then this is not free, but then this is a different price. James: 13:25 But then if you join the club then that's also different. And then there's this other price. So on a given screen here when you were just trying to say how many things I added, which you could not at that point by the combos too late to buy the Combo, you've gone too far. It's no way you can get it back. There were at any given point about 10 to 15 different prices that you would see on there. Right? Because based on the different bags and the different flights and then the different clubs that you were in, there was just so much information all in different colors. My eyes didn't know where to look. Frank: 13:59 I love the marketing. James. I love it so much. So I'm on the first screen and I click continue and they have a classic modal dialogue. So it's the web, but we have modal dialogues cause marketing or not. Um, and the buttons are, yes, I want to save. No, I don't want to say, ah, I love that word. I love it. Uh, no, I don't want to say if I'm clicking it James, I'm clicking away. Oh God, what are we even complainant, you know, what we're complaining about is this feels like a fraudulent site to me. This feels like how bad sites used to behave. Like, I don't know why I don't feel like I'm actually getting something here. I think I'm just getting, I don't know, stolen from somehow. Who Cares? Uh, anyway, what should I get, James? Should I go for the, should I go for the Combo or not? I W did we learn our lesson? So I think the big decision to make is do you fly cheap? Do you give in to the system or do you fight the system? James: 15:04 No, I mean, to me this isn't even about buying the ticket or buying the Combo. To me it's about what you just said. Right. Um, and this, this, this, it's funny enough that that we kind of did this impromptu, but Miguel sent me this website called user inner energy face. Have you seen this website? I don't know. Describe it. So I put it in the show notes. I'm here in Zencaster so you can click on this link. And the funny part is that when you were going through spirit airlines, I was also going through it with you, but one step ahead. I wasn't going to finish the process, but the gamification was that it was a tube buying an airline ticket became a two player game because I needed to tell you the prices so you could compare them to the combo deal and see if it was a better deal. I mean, you did great because you didn't spend any extra money. You did buy one reserve, one seat because it's a red eye flight. So it's good. Good to go. Those are the James Philosophy. But beyond that, uh, you know, this, some of the things that they did reminded me of this user in Uri face in like in your face, in your, in your face. Frank: 16:14 This is the worst. Can I describe this to people now? Yes. So this user entry face is of whatever in your face is the worst UI possible. That's all they're trying to create here. And it's terrible. It's stressing me out. I'm only on the first level of this game and it's stressing me out a lot. I don't know what to click. I don't want to fill in anything. I'm actually afraid of the site at this point and it's the first screen and I'm sure it just keeps getting worse after this. I did play with, yeah, I find with another site like this, but it was, it was more of a fun game where you were trying to, um, see what graphic designs mistakes were made in the app. And that was fun. It was a game. I felt like I was learning something during it. This one's freaking me out, James. This one's bad. James: 17:03 So this is, this is great. Um, and let me, let's walk everyone through it, but let's first take a quick break here to thank our next sponsor this week. clubhouse.io. That's right because this is not a cluttered website. This is a development tool that will help put your project back on track. Listen, are you looking for a better way to track your product and engineering backlog? Do you want a better project management tool that's both powerful and simple to use? Then you really honestly got to give clubhouse a try. This thing is designed for software teams, for software teams. Let's bess about that is that every single bit of clubhouse comes with a robust restful API and then of course host tons of great integrations so it will fit into your workflow. So when you're thinking about doing sort of boards and combine breakdowns and burndown charts and putting your product backlog in it, epics, stories, milestones, reports, labels, projects, your team all together in a beautiful dashboard. James: 18:02 Clubhouse has that altogether. Like I said, it's built by software engineers, for software engineers. They use it themselves. It's absolutely stunning. I highly recommend that you give it a try. And for a merge conflict, listeners, you get a free two month trial. So normally 14 days, two month trial completely for free. All you got to do is go to clubhouse.io/merge conflict, one word clubhouse out io slash merge conflict. You can also find that in the show notes below. Thanks. A clubhouse for sponsoring this week's pod. Yeah, frank, this is what the website's looks like. It's easy. Okay. Cause I want you to get past the first screen. It says hi and welcome to user interface, a challenging exploration of user interfaces and design patterns. So as to play this game. Hey, simply fill in the much, it has a big button that says no, don't press that button. It says, please click here to go to the next page. What are you going to do, frank? Frank: 19:00 I clicked there. It's the next page that's bad and it's breaking my soul. James. It's killing me. So they have an auto of um, I'm sorry. They have a text box with um, boy placeholder text in it, but they do that classic web thing where they forget to clear the placeholder text when you click in the box and it's killing my soul. James, this thing hurts. This is not funny. This is painful in a terrible way. Even the shadow they put on the box is rendered incorrectly and I don't even know if that's them trolling me or just, is it a double troll? I feel really exposed right now. James: 19:37 It is. It is really great. Even from start to finish, like there's a big this, I use this cookie is, is that a problem for you? No, not really. And then yes, but okay, so here's what I want to compare here because this is a lesson in user interface, how to do it wrong, but also probably what you see often in there, and this is an issue that I always thought was wrong with Ios, which was when there's a prompt for a permission, it gives you the cancel as the dedicated button because they put the users in control. But then as an engineer, you're like, I want this not to be the correct thing. And an in fact, ios defaults to cancel as the default bolded highlighted on a modal dialogue, UI alert view, even if you create it yourself. So what developers end up doing is we say, you know what we're going to use, we're going to use the cancel field as the yes. Cause we can put texts in there and we flip it. And with this map, Frank: 20:38 who does that? That better be a straw man argument because, oh my God. James: 20:43 Well when instead of saying cancel, you'll put the words like, okay, and then you'll click cancel in the, not bold, but then this. Huh? Clashes people. Yeah. This, this, this clashes with every other dialogue from apple because apple wouldn't do that. So in this, even though this website's really bad, it's showing us a lot of weird things and we talk about this UX of, I know I don't want to save money. Yes. I want to save money. Like, oh wait, are you, are you shaming me for not wanting to say or to, to, to, to not upsell. Um, we as developers can put ourselves in our mind that we of course want people to say, yes, I want this thing, or no, I don't want this thing. So we'll put this as prevalent preferential inside of our, inside of our applications on our website. So that's kind of what this website's doing here. Frank: 21:32 Yeah. And I guess this comes down to, um, are you gonna prioritize your needs over the standard UI or not? Um, I think that was the complaint I had about the spirit site also was every button was blue. It was a giant blue button. So they all had the same weight to them. They all had the same visual meaning to them. There was no, you know, this is probably the path you want to take. These are the buttons that you want to hit and then make the other ones more dim. No, they said we're going to make everything the same intensity and draw your attention to it. That's Kinda like not having the bold cancel button budgets, making them all bold, you know, you dilute it. You don't have any differentiation between them. Uh, I guess we've all been tempted to do that. You want to make things stand out, but I always follow on this side of I don't want to annoy the user. I guess that's all it is for me. It's, it's stick with the conventions. I may think my thing is more important, but it's not, thank goodness I don't work in marketing. Could you imagine having to be the developer and being like, oh no, UX style says I shouldn't do this. But the boss says it needs to be bold. But I guess I've been in those meetings for the boss says, can we make this bold stinks? James: 22:48 Yeah. And, and there are definitely parts where you want to collaborate with your marketing team and I could imagine the developers on this website, it had, it had been frustrating to work through every little bit of that UX and your, your ab testing is how can you upsell people and uh, and how can you work around, like obviously that Combo buy a combo could have been in a different area, but I bet they ab tested and see it makes more money up front. For instance, and these are probably things that we should be doing. We should be like, one thing that take away here, even though you said we were complaining to me is more of a study of UI and UX and upselling because every part of the process I'm buying that airline. I was amazed. I was like, this is amazing. I was like, every bit of this is frustrating and amazing because they know that I'm going to buy this airline ticket but now I have like it. It amazed me frank, I think more than anything you got through the process you did and I was like, well this, it's interesting. It is a mind confounding just smattering of so many ideas on a website and I loved every moment of it. Frank: 23:56 Yeah. It's just, I'm not sure I want to learn anything from it, you know? I don't, it would be a lesson in how to nickel and dime people and that's not something I want to do. That's why, you know, I don't even do subscriptions in my apps. Even though from day one of selling Apps, I knew that I should have a subscription because having someone pay $10 once 10 years ago doesn't help me today maintain that app. So from the beginning, I've always wanted to upsell people and Nicole Nicole and dive on, you know, who hasn't wanted to do that if you're a business person, but I haven't, you know, I don't, I've turned down that extra money. So what this really is showing me is look at this path. I could have traveled down or perhaps still could, but I think I'm promising everyone right now. Frank: 24:47 I never will. Maybe I'll do a tiny bit, but never to this extent. Like I used to have this terrible idea for ice circuit that I would charge you for every part you want a resistor. Here's here, here's a penny. But that would be terrible and no one would ever use the app. They'd be like, that's the app that constantly costs you money. And that's kind of how I feel about spirit right now. If they're not the cheapest flight by a big margin, then of course I'm going to go to the ones that just sell me a standard ticket and I don't have to go through the nickel and diming process unless James, I, we are old men and this is just how every airline is going to be and that will be terrible sad days and every app, every website. James: 25:33 I would hope that, you know, as I kind of think on how I buy airline tickets normally there is a little bit of this that goes on here and there but not overly too much. I believe that that's why this intrigued me so much and why I really wanted to just talk about the experience of going through because it really was a UI and UX designed by the marketing team. You could, you could tell that it's a marketing team and the business entity driving this and I don't have that background I guess in it and if, if if your business is this, this website is very, very important to spirit because this is how they actually make their money. There are low fare. They give away the giveaway, the t ticket for cheap to get this extra right. It's that risk versus reward type of thing. James: 26:20 It's the fortnight you, you give away for night and you let players play for free, but then you sell them in purchases, things like that. Or you don't have to get them. You don't have to give spirit airline any more money, frank, you can be just fine without it. But just like spirit, when I opened open fortnight, they're going to tell me the latest and greatest things they're going to tell me there's a sale going on right now and I play Pokemon go. It's the same thing. And so it kind of trickles into all aspects of not only just buying an airline ticket, but playing a game to browsing different websites, to making any other purchase, uh, on different, different areas. You know, when you go through amazon.com you go buy an electronic, do I want that for 99, you know, warranty on this. That's a good question. I mean, and, and the, the, the thing how I look at it in my mind is sort of how you, I think, look at it, which is you've now prompted me with another question. I'm ready to give you my money, but you've prompted me with another question and then I need to stop and think about it. Yeah, Frank: 27:24 there are those, um, what are they called? Not Cognitive disorders cause it's not a disorder. It's, it's something we all go through. But like sunk cost fallacy is one of them. Loss aversion is one of them. These are these primal instincts that we have, that people gamify. It's how they, how marketing works. It's how you manipulate people. Um, this doesn't quite cover, but it almost is a loss of version because they present these scenarios to you as in if you don't change your, Eh, you know, if you want to change your ticket in the future, it's going to cost you money. Unless you get the Combo, then it won't cost you money. Uh, we're not gonna assign USC. So, Hey, maybe you won't have a seat. Even though you're buying a ticket, maybe you won't have a seat, but it's creating this possibility of loss, this future loss, and all of a sudden you're like, well, I guess I'd better buy these things or else I'm gonna lose them. And so it's preying on these like very basic instincts that the exact same as thinks casinos that we started out talking about prey on. James: 28:28 It is, it is sad that, yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, what it is and how many thinking of here is that it is truly not UI designed by a marketing, but it is Fomo, UI design, Frank: 28:42 fomo. It is kind of a fomo thing, isn't it? So yeah, cognitive dissidence is the word I was looking for, but Pharma is definitely a cognitive dissonance. But um, I guess the fomo would come a little bit, you know, a stupid airlines always want you to get a hotel in a car at the end. Do you feel any fomo there or is that just, that's so passe. Everyone's used to ICO town a car at the end. We're, we're used to that level of upselling. James: 29:08 Yeah. That, that, that feels like, uh, a normal, that is something that reasonably you're like, oh, you know what, you either have done that already or you know, you're going to do that. It, it's, it's, it's outside of the purchase and I believe that that is okay. Right. I used to work at gamestop and uh, we had these things called, um, there were, I forget what the acronym three letter acronym was it for it, but it was, it was attach, but we had a number associated with our average item per transaction. So the idea there is if someone comes in and buys a video game console, you're going to lose money or break even on that based on how they pay. So it was all about how do you upsell them in a gracious way. So in that regard, it, that doesn't feel necessarily dirty because you're going to buy a council and then there are other things that you also need to play that you might need a game, you might need a memory card, you might need an extra controller. James: 30:08 I'm going to present you with those options where it doesn't hinder your main experience of just, I'm going to buy this council where that is a reasonable thing. So when I buy an airline ticket, oh, I'm probably traveling somewhere, so I probably do need a hotel or a or an f, you know, something else, but it's not going to impact and have a decision. Right. Because when that Combo comes up or I have to figure out my bag and the different prices I have to do math to figure out just the core experience, you know, of taking an airline. And that's the fear of missing out on a good deal, uh, that you're really getting there. Frank: 30:45 So you're, uh, blowing my mind a little bit. Not. So, uh, you said earlier that fortnight is a lost leader. I've never actually played fortnight. Is that actually free or do you still pay for it? Like a console and it's just, you know, uh, barely we at cost, I guess James: 31:01 four nine is completely 100% free on every single council. You pay nothing to play 100%. And what they do is they have two ways that they make money. The first way is called the battle pass. And what that's like a, a short term subscription for $10. You can get a battle pass, which allows you to unlock extra bonus goodies in the game as you're playing. So you accomplish achievements, you get rewards. And if you have the battle pass, you get like three times as much stuff. If you didn't have the battle pass, you can play it, but 100%, right? Frank: 31:38 That must be, there has to be like a purist to league that same, we're not going to buy anything, right? Is there the Cheapo League, I want to join the cheapo league. James: 31:46 Well, no, absolutely. And if you still do that, you still unlock items, um, in it's like a battle pass, like, like light mode basically. Um, and yeah, you don't have to, you'll still unlock things like you'll still get rewarded for playing. Now you can also go into the shop and buy things, but the bonus here is that everything is cosmetic. Okay. So nothing that you buy in fortnight, whether it's in the battle pass that's unlocked or that you buy in the shop impacts the game play. So everything is a dance is a skin is a costume, it has zero impact on the game place or you're either good or you suck like me. Frank: 32:28 So how can we translate that to airlines? How can, what can airlines learn from fortnight or maybe they'll just start hitting fortnight on the airplane? Who knows? James: 32:37 Well, I mean, for UI design, it's complimentary things that I already want to do. So it is a thing such as, I really like it when airlines, they may offer me some free food, but I can buy an upgraded meal and I get a discount if I buy it. Now. I like it that right because I could buy something on the plane or I could buy an now and reserve it now. Basically, I, I do enjoy that. Airlines obviously can't give away the ticket for free, but I feel as though, um, they can gracefully, um, upsell you through the process. I just, I feel like other airlines already do an upgrade. You like, they're like, you know, if you fly an American or even Alaska and you need to buy a bag, you gotta pay money for that. But it's, it's, it's a standard. There's no combos, there's no clubs, there's no, you know, 18 different options. There's this one option and that's what I think is elegant about it. Frank: 33:36 Um, I guess I've seen apps do this. I think that peak hulk, if you do an in app purchase, you can change the icon because apple finally made it possible for apps to dynamically change their icons. But instead of making it a feature, it just became a little app purchase. And you know, I don't feel like that that's nickel and diming because in absolutely no way does that get into the proper functioning of the app. You know, he does a pop up a dial on modal dialogue boxes. The spirit site insists on doing, um, it's just a little, little thing you find somewhere and you can go change the icon for people who care a lot about the colors of things on their phones. And so I guess there's small opportunities for app developers like that. I don't mind that one so much. James: 34:23 Yeah, I think that you could, you could apply a lot of these concepts. If you're building a game, a lot of these concepts are going to apply. So I think the spirit airline is a great use case for you to go look at. Um, but I think the other, the other case of learning by what is a bad experience, it's not even necessarily a bad experience but a sub par experience. I felt it felt painful to get through that process. And using our mobile applications or the APPS or the websites we build shouldn't be a painful process. They should really guide you through and feel like you're accomplishing things. So for me, when you're doing these upgrades or thanking them, there's good ways of doing doing that. Especially if it's something like, oh you know, I'll removing ads and you can say you're not just removing ads. This is supporting supporting the app. And by doing so this helps the app be maintained. And you also can remove ads. Right? Cause now I you know, can subsidize the, what I would have made off the ads and you get a better experience and I think that's nice. And I'm just like removing remove ads. It gives you some other stuff. So maybe you're removing as you get a bundle, right? You get the remove ads and change your icon bundle. Frank: 35:33 [inaudible] the the Combo I think you meant to say [inaudible] you get the Combo. Yeah. You got to add them up. Yeah, I think even like a, what was it, the sketchup, he used to have combos. Well you know when it comes to buying tickets, I still want it to be like the first time I saw buying tickets and that was in the movie war games and I should just be able to go to a terminal type in the city. I want hit enter like three or four times and it says you got a ticket. I just wish it was like that. James, someone should build a flight booking site that's like a dumb terminal just like from war games. That would be so hot. James: 36:08 Yeah, I would like that. Well you did it frank, and now we can all unveil right now why and where and what this airline is going to bring you to. Do you want to unveil that for the people? Frank: 36:23 Yes sir. The great state of Texas and one of the fine cities and in that state, James, what city is it? Cause I can't remember. James: 36:32 That'd be Houston, Texas, Frank: 36:35 the fine city of Houston, Texas for the developer summit. This is a, is it a Xamarin conference? Watson Mobile Development Conference for sure. But it's, um, definitely a lot of Xamarin people are showing up and we're gonna have a great time in the hot hot sun with a bunch of good talks and seeing all our online friends together and building fun things cause we always end up coming up with crazy ideas while we're there. Yeah. James: 37:03 I mean it is literally called the Zammarin developers summit. So I believe that's what it is. How it is a community run event. It's not an official Microsoft event. Uh, but uh, yeah, pretty. I'm pretty excited. I will be there. Uh, I have a keynote and another session and yeah, I'm excited that you're going to be there to hang out and chat with everyone. So many great people and more as time goes on as it gets closer to the event, which happens the 11th and 12th, um, um, it's going to be really fun. So I'm excited to talk about that. Um, and next week or so. Frank: 37:35 Yeah. And this is continuing a great tradition. I love the old motto space and Monkey Space Conferences. We used to have of course the great evolve conferences we used to have and uh, this, we haven't had any good conferences lately that there were a community run, I should say community conferences. So this is going to be super fun. James: 37:55 Can't wait. You found them bring Suntan Lotion? Yes. Brings Suntan Lotion. That's right. Well I can't wait to see you there, frank and I hope many of our listeners are there too. If so stopped by. We'll have plenty of merge conflicts stickers to give out, but I think that's going to do it for this week's beautiful user interface UX experiment of seeing how many people can navigate their way through listening this podcast. So that's going to do it. Until next time, I'm James Monson Magnum, Speaker 1: 38:22 and I'm [inaudible]. Thanks for listening. [inaudible].