mergeconflict357 === [00:00:00] James: Frank. Frank. Frank. Frank. Frank. Frank. Frank, Frank. Now listen, um, how many times has iTunes and Apple Music really wanted you to listen to that one U2 album like all the time, right? [00:00:11] Frank: You know, I, I, after that album, I just stopped using the app permanently. I just stopped. I stopped, you know, it's a, we, we could do whole episodes on music history and how US oldies used to collect music and how I, I've, I've given up on all of it now. Um, so I don't even open. Any of those apps anymore. [00:00:31] James: It's really, it's really funny because, uh, one of the things that the iPhone loves to do is when you plug into new media sources, it really wants to, it really wants to play music. And on my iPhone, cause I'm not, I've never been an iPhone user up until like two years ago, which means on my Apple account, I only have one album, which is the U2 album. And I know that there's a way to get rid of it. Heather did it somehow, but it was like, She had to like install like iTunes and then do this other thing and then like write a message to Bono and be like, I really want to get rid of this album. And then Bono had to approve it and like sign the off on it. So [00:01:05] Frank: I, I'm curious about that. Someone should do a YouTube documentary and say like, because I, my guess was I thought maybe I'm just. Just, it's all up in my head, but I thought that they had made it easier slash it's not forced down on anyone anymore, but for everyone who had the account back then. So without looking, I am curious whether I have it, but I refuse to open the app, so no, not gonna happen. [00:01:32] James: Well, reminiscing of the days of your, um, the Zoom's back, did you know that? [00:01:37] Frank: Oh, I, you know what I, I hope all we're gonna do is talk about the Zoom today because, uh, I, is this a Scott Hanselman thing? Are, are we just following Scott Hanselman or is this a Guardians of the Galaxy thing, or is this us just gonna reminisce about 2005? When, when was the zoom out? I've forgotten already. [00:01:57] James: Okay, so here's, here's the deal. Uh, when I was. A kid. Uh, I came out in 20 2006, so very close now. When I was a kid, I had CD players and I love CD players in cassette players. I followed the evolution of music. Now, when I heard that there was an a thing called Napster where I could peruse music and have access to legally backups of the. Music CDs that I purchased and listened to them anywhere. And there's a thing called an m p three player and Frank, it blew my mind. And I might have told this story before, but let me, let me go on my journey. Frank. Here's my journey. It's story time. [00:02:43] Frank: Everyone. [00:02:43] James: What? What did we got? I got my first MP3 player. It had 128 megabits of storage and its. Blew my mind. I could put almost a full, I could put almost a full CD on it. No, you know, back in the day, MP3 s were like super compressed, right? Because you were downloading over 56 K modems and just, you know, you didn't have a lock 'em. Mm-hmm. Now, uh, I got that, um, I was pretty blown away. Now there used to be, uh, a website called like free ipods.com or whatever. Do you know about this? It's the biggest iPods, you know about this. No, you know about, so I was a kid. In high school and then in college. And I was a hustler. Right? Oh boy. And a tech hustler though, because I was like, I know how to use the internet. I'm not, you know, I know. I know how to do this thing. So there's a website. It was called like free ipods.com or whatever. I don't go with that. I don't know. It's probably not a real website anymore, but don't go there anymore. In the days of, of your, before all of the affiliate things, all this stuff, someone was really smart and they said, they said, Hey, well listen, if we can get people to sign up for magazines or subscriptions or these free trials, If they get so many signups and get referrals and do this other stuff, you know, blah, blah, blah. You can get, they'll give you an iPhone, you get credits, you get 10 referrals, get iPhone. And there were all these forums and message boards and you know, um, you know, AOL [00:04:05] Frank: chat rooms, it's pyramid. Scheme with an Uhhuh iPhone at the top of the pyramid. I'm not getting, so what legwork are you doing and how much cash are you putting up? Or you're putting up zero cash? Just like, oh, sorry. [00:04:17] James: This wasn't even an iPhone. It was an I iPhone, sorry. Pod. Pod where? Yeah, that's my vault. So it was free ipods.com. So it was at the top of the pyramid. Pyramidal wasn't even a phone, it was an iPod. And you would, right, is it an iPod Mini? An iPod. Nano is an iPod. 120 gigs. Right. So I went through this thing, and of course I got one from myself. Dope, dope, dope. And then, I was like, so I, and then what people would do is they would, they would be in these forearms, they'd do these things and it was, it was this, it was a big scam basically. But they would actually send you an iPhone and I, I got probably like 10, or sorry, an iPod like 10 iPods sent to me and I would resell them on eBay. And it's how I would pay my rent in college. This song is [00:04:56] Frank: like cryptocurrency. So it's just all the old iPod hustlers are now just doing the cryptocurrency. Yep. [00:05:03] James: Game. So I got outta that game a long time ago, but Frank, after I got my iPod, I was working at GameStop. Throughout the entirety of my high school career and my college career. And what year did I graduate high school? 2005. What years where? I was in college, definitely in 2006. And what came out in 2006? The Zoom. And what store, for some reason, decided to sell the Zoom GameStop Because it's a video game store and there was like a game on it. Um, the, the Hex game by, uh, Do you remember [00:05:36] Frank: when, like yeah, the video game stores like. Maybe it was late nineties or very early two thousands, but they were just crowded with games. Like they were just games and games and games and games. And then at some point, all the game stores became somewhat media stores. Yeah. And they became like 50% games and things like that. So I think that's like, I think the Zoom must have been catching that little bit of a wave there where they were trying to diversify a little bit. What a, what a gorgeous brown device. It was. [00:06:06] James: I owned the brown one. It was so good. Uh, so during, during my colleges, I had zooms. I had this stuff, uh, and on this wave, uh, and, you know, I loved my Z and actually that was my definitive device. I, I had mm-hmm. Zoom and I loved it. Use it all the time. Do you know why I use it over the iPod? [00:06:27] Frank: So you had an, oh, so you're, oh, I'm sorry. I lost that tangent. I just got lost in the iPod story. So you're an iPod hustler. Mm-hmm. So why did the iPod Hustler get a zoom? Is it because it reminded you of your hustle days? Was it because you wouldn't be culpable between, is it a a, a life split in half the, the complexities that are James, is it something like that? [00:06:52] James: It was the software, Frank, it was the software. Oh yeah, zoom software. It was software. [00:06:56] Frank: It was good. Zooms [00:06:58] James: Zoom software. Definitively some of the best software ever created in the entire world is so good. It's beautiful. It has beautiful animation. It's at graphics, not only the software on the device, but I'm talking about the Windows desktop software now that, yeah, forget [00:07:13] Frank: about the device. I mean, the device was nice. That was early Metro Design. Yeah. We'll, we'll, we'll get into it because if we're just talking Zoom UI today, I, I can, I can do this forever because I deep dove into it too. It was striking for me also, um, windows apps, at the time you had your standard WIN 32 app with buttons. Mm-hmm. You had your VB apps with colorful buttons because they could let you set the colored property. You had your Delphi apps. And you had, uh, some kind of video gaming apps, and then none of the Unix apps worked on Windows back then. So it's fine. You can ignore all of those and you could always feel that. So those were the kinds of apps and then the Zoom software comes out and you're like, it feels like a game because it has smooth animation and it's colorful and is actually responding to my interactions. And yet, It's a Windows app because here it is in a window and it's not even acting that weird. I mean, it was a radically different UI than um, a standard app, that's for sure. But, um, you're like, well, maybe this is how UI should be, and that's, that, that began, that was my first impression of it. I vaguely listened to some music using it. The progress bars were a little weird. They hid something, some fonts were too small, but we can critique it. But then I deep dove into the technology of it too. Anyway. I'll, I'll stop there and let you [00:08:40] James: go on. Yeah. The Zoom software itself, you know, I think there's, there's two pieces of software that really are precursors for movements in software. I think the Zoom software is one. In addition, I think Windows Media Center is another one. And in both of these instances, they did not use standard toolkits out of the box. Now Windows Media Center, which, you know, I went through this journey of Windows Media Center, which is how I got my job and how I ended up being here, making mobile apps and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. It actually used a AML XML type markup, but it had its own, you know, stack. Basically it was like the OG SAML stack, uh, pretty much where you could make these add-ins and mean. When I look at the Zoom software, it really reminds me of. Early, like you said, Metro and Windows phone type environments that were out there. It was just so dramatically different that it felt so fresh to me, uh, in these days. And, you know, at that time, I think we were still rocking Windows seven, right? [00:09:35] Frank: Yeah. Oh, 2005 six I, I think it's even earlier than that because Vista came out in 2005 ish. Yeah. Vista Rocket, I think it was more Vista timeline. Mm-hmm. Um, it was remarkable. Well, you know what it is, when I was actually thinking this, we have versions of it now because it was, you know, whether, was it just a reflection of the times or was it a trendsetter? That's for art people to decide. I'm not a art historian. I'm gonna say though, it was my first view into that UI and what it could be. So for me it's like the Latin of the languages of the UIs that we see now. Um, it turned into Metro on the Windows phone. Metro was a bit of a blend between the actual Zoom UI and then the software. The software was like a gorgeous version of the tiny software running on the actual hardware device. Uh, and then it became like, got watered down a bit into Metro. Metro, got watered down a bit into oh, whatever, W P F and then UW P eventually, and then even Apple adopted the design. Mm-hmm. So around. Um, it, it, it took them a bit longer, but iOS seven was when we dropped skew morphism and put big, bold typography and boring, solid colored apps everywhere. They are just the worst. And what, what I see it as these people are. Uh, it's like a game of telephone. They lost what the beautiful version of it was, which was the Zune ui. You should go back to the Zune UI and see how they were doing things like if the iPhone actually adopted the, the flat aesthetic properly, they would've copied that UI a a bit better. I don't know. It's the Latin, that's what I'm gonna call it. The Latin of, um, media-based UIs. [00:11:37] James: Yeah, there's a lot of good that went into it. And the reason that this is all really coming to focus is because, uh, zoom.net is, is alive. And you're right. Scott Hanselman has been tweeting all day and all night. I actually had a call with him. He was, he was telling me about. What was up, he really hit it well, because the Zune is featured in the Brand New Guardians of the Galaxy movie, which just came out, uh, not a sponsor of this podcast. That would be cool if they were, he's savvy, that man. Yeah. And the zoom.net website, it's not like a new version of the Zune or the Zune software or anything like that. But, uh, what's fun about it? Is that it's like STEM type of stuff. So learning how to code, creating a music player and all this stuff, and uh, and sort of that has evolved through the process. But Scott Hanselman did in fact get the zoom up and running and working in 2023. Through different pieces of software and different things like that. So kind of cool in general. There's a place called Zoom update.com, like there's a Zoom, Reddit, there's, I, I didn't realize that the Zoom was so alive, and I know that there's been articles that have come out about it, but I think for good reason, just like I actually think that the iPod should be alive and well and running because I, no, I think so. No, Frank, I think we [00:12:53] Frank: need to, she. Jobs, Steve Jobs says you don't need a device for music, a device for this. A device for that. A device for cameras. No. You can just build the camera into the other devices. You know, you don't need separate devices for all these things. Hi, I'm Steve Jobs and I'm gonna introduce you to this thing called the iPhone. And it's cool because it puts all these things together into one device. It's not to say that the. Specific use case devices aren't cool and don't have cache and aren't cute, but they're never gonna come back, they're never gonna be as useful as a multipurpose device. So yes, it could come back. Microsoft's not gonna make any money out of them, so they'll probably never do it. Um, it would have to come back in a really funny form if someone actually wanted to make a piece of hardware for, plus, you know, it's. Bigger than I remember. I, I, yeah, used to have one cuz I used it. But, um, I don't remember it ever showing up in my move. And I think eventually the battery just kind of gave out and it was too big and I stopped keeping it. [00:13:56] James: The definitive, definitive to me, and people can debate this, the definitive Zoom and iPod was the iPod touch and the Zoom hd because they were thin, they had his corners, they were, had touchscreens, all this stuff. It was really nice, the the perfect device and which is the precursor to modern cell phones. I get it, Frank, but I actually just donated an MP3 player. It's actually really hard to find a good, decent MP3 player for cheap in 2023. Oh, because, hold on, Frank. We wanted to get some podcasts that Heather had recorded and give it to her grandma. Her grandma doesn't have a smartphone. How's she gonna listen to? To stuff? We're gonna put it on. I can't even have a cd. I don't have a CD drive. I can't even put it on a cd. I can't put it on a dvd. How might I do that? Didn't [00:14:38] Frank: have a computer. Don't you, don't you have a record press in Oregon is, isn't there someone out back and you just pour some plastic into a bowl and someone makes you a vinyl record outta it? I thought that's how Oregon [00:14:50] James: rolled. I believe so. Although, yeah, I guess you may, could you fit a, you'd have to put the one half of the podcast on each side of the [00:14:58] Frank: vinyl. Oh goodness. Um, one of the podcasts I listened to, um, hello Internet, they actually, um, pressed. I think they had actually had to split it in half. I think it was like 30 or 45. I forget how long a record is 30 or 45 on one side. 30 45. That's fun. Yeah. Fun. It, it was very expensive and difficult, but they got it done. That is great. Could you imagine just the amount of. Energy and effort that would go into making that Anyway, side rail derailed. Can we talk about the, the Windows app some more? [00:15:32] James: Yes. Well, you, Frank Krueger tweeted 10 hours ago, I was so impressed with the Zoom UI framework that our rigorously reverse engineered the PC app. Turns out the team wrote their own UI controls, render markup language for it. Not saml, but better what SAML should have been. Ooh, that's a, that's a, that's a intense tweet. [00:15:54] Frank: All's am funny, lighthearted, but yeah, I mean, Frank, you don't [00:15:58] James: write your tweets lighthearted at all. You're just like, here it is. Blunt, Midwestern. Blunt, blunt, [00:16:05] Frank: blunt. Um, okay. Yeah, let's talk about it. So, uh, they wrote to, to make the app as awesome as the app is, they designed a rendering engine. They designed a way to create composite controls with X M L. And they would composite all those controls into pages with XML and they hooked up all the interaction events so that like the text input box works so that the button works. I was a really good, uh, windows hacker back then, and so I just kind of dove in with every, every inspection tool you can find to see like exactly how is this window working. And this window in the Zoom case was a DirectX window. With absolutely nothing else in it. Normally in a Windows app, you have sub windows, like buttons and text boxes and things like that. Nope. This is a renderer. And so that's how it worked. Uh, that is an elegant, if not incredibly time consuming way to build a ui to build your own UI framework. I love writing little UI frameworks, but James, yours and I, it didn't get anywhere beyond. Button or something like that. You know, it's, it's fun to rough out a new UI framework, be like, yeah, mine's gonna be direct X based and have animations baked in and it's gonna be XML based with live reload and all that cool stuff. And then you, you finish button and you're like, I'm done. I'm done. It's just too much work. So I, I wanna say it's impressive technologically what they built there, but the thing that blew my mind as a developer, as an engineer at that point in my life was they actually finished it like, They actually built an entire UI framework for this stupid thing, and yes, yes they did. [00:17:52] James: And apparently it was called Microsoft Iris, is that correct? Cuz I'm seeing that not only did you tweet about it, but then there's an entire GitHub organization dedicated to bringing back the Zoom slash dev. Yeah, [00:18:08] Frank: I'm a little bit sad. I think it was must have been easier to reverse engineer years ago because I remember when I was studying it, I was able to get to the actual xml. And the whole UI was revealed to you so you could see their language for declaring things. Uh, so it, you can almost think of it as a precursor to saml, but the two were developed, um, concurrently. So it's not like one influenced the other or the other way around. That's why I say it was almost a sign at the times people were thinking maybe XML. Probably off the high heels of HTML being a pretty good way to build apps. We're like, well, what if we just had H tml but better? What if we just did a better version of HTML and we'll call that Iris, Iris xml or ui xml, I believe is what they called it. And, uh, I believe that the, the, the Windows team with W P F had the same idea. They're like, yeah, HTML's pretty cool. Let's, uh, let's. That seems like a nice way to write apps. Let's write apps that way and, but we're gonna do better than H T M L and we'll develop our own set of controls. It took the Windows team, 8 billion people and four years to build W P F and. Some psychopath on the Zoom team built Iris and all the controls to make a full UI framework. I, it just blows my, the order of magnitude is what blows my mind. It's so [00:19:35] James: much work. It's true. And like on this, uh, Microsoft Iris GitHub, something calls called UI X X. Uh, It says it also like a lot of these files were nearly identical and structure to the Windows media, the media center markup language, M C M L, which is also precursor to Zael. It's really funny how all these things kind of go back into this XMLs HTML style thing. I was talking to someone today and they're like, oh, you know what, if I'm a web developer right, and I wanna go learn Sam, like how different? I was like, yeah, it's not that different. Like I, I. You, there's some differences mm-hmm. In some syntax and some properties and blah, blah, blah. You know, it's, it's actually the architecture, which I think is the more challenging part. The, these animal part's not hard. It's the M V V M architecture stuff. Yeah. Cuz architecture is not fun. Right. So, yeah. [00:20:23] Frank: Uh, so I just wanna go back to, to reiterate on the interesting architecture of it. Um, That iris source code that you can go check out on GitHub, and I recommend everyone go take a look at it. But you're gonna look at it and be like, yeah, there's button and you know, kind of the normal things here. Uh, and there's the rendering edge, and that's what's important too. But then, and just to reiterate, the bulk of it was done in xml. There's just so much XML defining the ui, and I remember in the early days of W P P F, when you would do file new project, they assumed like a zero blank state of SAML and everything, so it would copy in like a million files with a million style settings and things like that because there just weren't any sane defaults. And so nothing really worked without throwing in all these files, and it was. I always thought that was crazy because like just in style files it, it felt like so much code, but then you take a look at something like Zoom where uh, whatever, it's again, the quantity is there. So I hope that every, in everyone's reverse engineering of it. They have the compiled version of 'em, just like you could in the old days, compile SAML into what were they like X. Files, whatever they were. You used to compile SAML into some binary format. All of these XML files are compiled into a binary format too. Assuming for efficiency. [00:21:53] James: It's crazy to me just how this thing evolved and how it has this great, you know, comeback story. You know, I think that there's a few pieces of software in my life. You know, obviously the Zoom was not only software, but was also hardware. But to me, there's. A few pieces of software that are so iconic that define generation, and one of them I think is the Zoom software. I think the other one, rollercoaster Tycoon, the original def, it's everything about Rollercoaster Tycoon, the story behind it, the development behind it, everything that Chris Sawyer, the whole thing. The whole thing. How Rollercoaster doing took off all this other stuff. Wild because you can, you can boot up, you can boot up like Sim City 2000 and you boot up roller Coaster Tycoon. You know exactly what you're gonna do and it's just gonna happen. Right? But the Zoom software come out with the Zoom hardware magic. The other, this is me now people can judge me, but I think that this is the defining piece. The one that has, not that I know, I don't not, I haven't seen it out there, is space cadet. Which is the original pinball game that was pre-installed on every single Windows machine back in the day, you would use the hover game, hover 3d. Oh, it's Space Cadets. The only one that's definitive. [00:23:09] Frank: It's funny because you're listing those games. I would've given you different ones. I would've said Racer, racer 3d, you know, but whatever. We, we all have our formative ones, but if it's fun that we, we agree on Zoom was definitely formative for all that stuff. Yeah. Uh, can I address my snark quick bait a little bit. In, in the end of my tweet there. Mm-hmm. Uh, I said, this is what AML should have been. What what's neat is because it is older, um, and, and the Latin of all these languages, they were experimenting, figuring out what should be in these declarative markup things. And this is very different from how React works these days too. But React could take a few lessons from all this. The snark was, um, these files were meant to be edited by a human. Just the way you would write HTML back in the day, you would write it by hand and you would write these XML files, and that's the original way SAML was developed. So, There was a bad day in zl where uh, it was decided that ZL won't be written by humans. ZL will be written by tools, namely a tool called Blend. It was when Blend people became very popular and powerful at Microsoft. And Blend was having a hard time generating good quality code for zl because ZL was complicated and designed for humans, and it was very powerful, but it was very complicated and it was hard to build a UI for it because it was. Powerful. Yeah. And so one day it was decided, and I, there must have been a company-wide meeting or something, but I just remember the words. They're like, we're now designing SAML to be output by programs and not written by humans. And therefore we are removing a lot of the fancy nice features from SAML that just make, make writing it. You could say just shorter. But just nicer. You know, the, the way you set properties now, it's like an extra level of indentation than it used to be. And so they remove certain things like that. And it's sad, um, because when you look at something like the Zoom xml, you see what. In my mind, I happened to, I was lucky. I was there what the original version of Sam looked like, and you're like, oh gosh, darn it, it was, it was better back then. It was harder for tools to output, but it was better for developers. And so that's what my snarkiness and my tweet was all about. [00:25:38] James: The difference is as a user, a blend that used blend to make beautiful animations and styles and all the things in my beautiful wind phone and all these other, you know, windows applications I've had. I loved it. Once you learned how to use it, it was just like, and here's all this stuff and all the states and all the things like this is beautiful. Um, anyway, I, I remember the blend is people, people are asked to this day. Well, the fine part now is that I kind of go back to all this. Am I write is by hand, to be honest with you, I, yeah, that's [00:26:06] Frank: it. Wow. By hand one out, sadly, like I, I, I like their idea, but their idea had the flaw that it required that this tool always be updated. And the thing that they weren't anticipating back then was a split in saml. Even though they kind of did it to themselves with silver light coming out, they're the ones that did the initial ZL split. But um, the tool then became hard because now you have to have the tool for both environments. And then when a third environment came out, like uwp, now you gotta thwart the tool to that. When a fourth environment, Samin forms comes out, another example environment, now you gotta port the tool to that which they never bothered to get around to. So it's just blend. Using Blend as this is the way you do AML design was just a flaw because you don't design a format where you require one tool. Um, in the end Humans, AML one out [00:27:00] James: saml. Um, yeah, that's interesting. I, I, I don't know what the original AMLs looked like, so I don't know. So you only know, well, you know, if people don't know Frank, lot people know Frank. Frank worked on the WPF team, so. [00:27:15] Frank: Back in the day after it was designed. So I don't wanna take any credit for the design, so I just got plopped better and they're like, here's them. I'm like, oh, interesting. New way to build UIs. Fascinating. There there [00:27:26] James: is an, there is a episode of Merch Conflict about, so people are newer to the podcast too. I don't wanna rob them of this, which is there is a, there is a podcast. I wish we had video of that back in the day. If you go to me to search, I [00:27:38] Frank: probably look younger. [00:27:40] James: I do. I think it was called the Life and [00:27:46] Frank: Life. It was pompous. Yeah. Try life. Am I alive? [00:27:50] James: Hi, episode 1 32. The Life and Times of Frank Krueger. I'll put that into the show notes. Uh, let's just merge conflict at FM slash 1 32. 1 32. Yeah. One, three. Three. We didn't get 1, 2, 3. We got 1, 3, 2. Uh, and we still have never recorded mine, nor will we ever. I'm a mystery. Actually. We kind of did a mini one that one little bit. We. [00:28:10] Frank: Well, we get, we get little drips and drabs. I, I learned some things about you today. I, I didn't know about the iPod lifestyle that you lived. [00:28:18] James: Yeah. Free iPod websites. I wish [00:28:22] Frank: that there was like, some don't go there. Right? We need to finish the recording and not have all of our computers [00:28:26] James: crash. I know. It's, it's all whatever. Bad, bad news. Everything now anyways, I think this is really cool. I think that there's nostalgia and bringing back some of this classic software. I honestly. We'll be down for some classic hardware. I'm just saying I would, I would buy a new Zoom today. I buy that. You would, [00:28:47] Frank: but you would want it to be a hundred dollars. Who knows? Someone could copy the design. I mean, it's just a rounded rectangle. [00:28:54] James: Yeah, limited a dish. You know what I mean? Like I think that that would be cool. Like gimme a limited dish. Zune Limited A Dish. iPod. Touch. iPod Nano. Well, you're pretty, I don't have, what am I supposed to put on it? That's the only problem. [00:29:09] Frank: That is the issue. So I'm almost thinking you could, uh, fit like a raspberry pie inside of its case because it was pretty big and the screen was pretty small, so you could almost make like a raspberry pie one, not saying anyone should, don't devote your summer to building a raspberry pie soon, unless there already is one on thing averse. [00:29:26] James: I like that. In fact, if you go to zoom h zoom.net, I believe there is a whole thing about 3D printing a Zune. [00:29:38] Frank: Oh boy. It's in space. [00:29:40] James: In space. In space. I'm pretty sure. I, it says, uh, red wire field trip, 3D printing, Azo. So I don't know if they, if they have, I'll put, I'll put this link for you. It's on the zoom.net website, but, um, I think I'm a [00:29:55] Frank: little bit worried. Everyone is, is he trying to sell me an iPod right now? I can't tell anymore. I don't know if I really [00:30:01] James: trust you. Yeah. What am I even talking about anymore? Um, anyways, this has been a fun, uh, journey down. This, and I'm gonna put some show notes to the Zoom dev, GitHub, things like that. I think it's cool that there's communities around all types of software, right? And I think about the internet archive, right? Just archiving stuff and bringing stuff around, or they're in a big battle right now over books of all things. Um, just all, yeah. But, you know, [00:30:29] Frank: that's sad. These things are important. They are, and I wanna, I, I, I just like to make fun of Scott Hansen, but I love him and I love that he is bringing this back and I love that he got it all into our consciousness and gave us an excuse to talk about one of the great frameworks out there. And an okay device. The device was okay that the, that the, the music library was awesome. The device was okay. And brown. I like the brown and the software architecture was amazing. Yeah, [00:31:02] James: good things from Zoom. I like it. All right, well go check out zoom.net. It's live. It's a website. I love it. Um, there's a school Guardian, the Galaxy trailer. I'll probably go see the third one, I think. I think I saw the second one. I think the first one a lot. Second one's pretty good. I'll go see the third one. Why not, but, I don't know Chris Pratt now he's just Mario in my mind the entire time. So. Hmm. [00:31:25] Frank: But that was just a voice. As long as also doesn't have daddy issues I'm in, it's gonna have daddy [00:31:29] James: issues. Oh, and guardians. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we'll leave it at that. I think that's going to do it. This, I think that, you know, oh, you know what I did see, let's close this out here. Um, there's what is with DC movies. How come can they try to make [00:31:50] Frank: something that's not Batman but only Batman does? Well, that's [00:31:53] James: the problem. Yeah. There's a trailer for a blue beetle that I saw at the Super Mario Brothers movie, blue Beatles and [00:31:59] Frank: anything. That's kind of an interesting character. We'll see if they do a any justice. That's the problem. Blue beetle can be, the joke with blue beetle is that he is a joke. Blue Beetle is fantastic for that, but he is actually a really neat character. Well, [00:32:14] James: at the end of the trailer, Some people in the theater did laugh at the trailer. Now, I don't think, because the trailer was funny, but maybe you're right. Maybe there's satire in blue Beetle itself, but [00:32:29] Frank: it's gonna take a kind of genius to do blue beetle. So we'll see if they found a genius to do blue beetle. [00:32:34] James: I would like dc. I like all this. I would like DC movies to be successful beyond. Batman. That's all I'm [00:32:41] Frank: saying. Hey, they're successful. James, if you enjoyed your time at the movie theater, so what are you, what you're really saying is you're definitely going to see it and you're just apprehensive. That's what I'm hearing over here. [00:32:51] James: I, I should probably go see it because I do have a Regal Unlimited pass and so far I've seen one movie, which is the new Super Mario Brothers movie, and it's fantastic. Uh, I'm gonna see the Barbie movie, though. That looks spectacular. We talked about it before, but I'm a big. Big Barbie fan. I'm even wearing my, since this is the [00:33:08] Frank: movie hour, I'm looking forward to it too, but I'm not sure I'll last more than 15 minutes. The trick with that one is like, well be just, well, I'll make it to the end. That's the only, yeah, there you go. [00:33:21] James: All right. Thanks everyone for listening over. Yeah. And or watching, uh, this week's podcast. You can follow us everywhere on the internet merge conflict. Do fm, uh, that's where you can go. There's all the links to our socials, to our podcast. You can, you can, if you're on YouTube, you can subscribe in the YouTube music app or any podcast application. Additionally, uh, we have a Patreon. We get bonus episodes. You can see Frank and me and or listen to us every single week. Put both of them now. Audio and video special a dish. Um, on the Patreon, we do bonus podcast. This week we talked about something. Uh, I believe you can see like a little, like 32nd, uh, snippet, uh, on the patreon.com/merch. Conflict fm, it's on merch conflict.fm. That's where you can find everything. Uh, additionally, beyond that, You can find Frank and I on the internet, on our YouTubes, all the things. Uh, anyways, there's links in the show, notes below. Thanks for listening. Until next time, I'm Jason Monte Magno. [00:34:16] Frank: And I'm Frank Krueger. Thanks for listening and watch it. Oh, peace, Pete.