Frank (00:00:08):
James. I made a mistake last week,

Frank (00:00:11):
Describing source generators. I was trying to contrast them with Fody and in doing so I did a terrible job. I think I ended up insulting the author of Fody, uh, Simon crop. And I just want to take a moment and personally apologize to Simon for any negative remarks. I said about Fody I didn't actually intend anything negative like that, but upon review, I realized that I could have been so much more eloquent and putting over, uh, what I was actually thinking. So I didn't intend to any harm. And I just want to apologize to Simon before this episode begins.

James (00:00:50):
Yeah. And I think from my point too, we tweeted out some apologies and really, it was never really our intention. The reason that I had even brought up Fody in the beginning of the pod, which we, we took down, we didn't think that it, um, is, is, is right at all to have that type of content up based on us, just relistening and being, you know, looking and listening to what we, we said, we don't think that reflects of are actually what we're trying to get across. The reason I brought up voting is because I had gotten a lot of people asking me about comparisons and I wanted to try to get to the core level of how the two technologies are different. And, you know, we love every single open source or every single developer, every single library creator out there. And it's never our intention to use words that make something come off negative, or that we say that something is not good.

James (00:01:40):
It wasn't our, our, our intention at all. And we do apologize. And like you said, and we said, we, we strive to make this podcast merge conflicts of celebration of software development and developers. And we're take it as a learning lesson, right. To grow. We deeply apologize to an only Simon, but all the other contributors to the project. And, you know, we took down the episode to correct our mistake. We wanted to put out this message at the beginning of this podcast and to let everyone know and, and, you know, we'll do right by the Fody team and the entire open source community and make sure that when we go and we talk about technologies and we do it thoughtfully. And, um, and we, we pay respect to the hard work and dedication that the community has done.

Frank (00:02:26):
Nicely said, James, thanks for bailing me out a little bit. There. I feel that it's a lot of me putting my foot in my mouth and I do apologize for it. And thank you all for bearing with us as we learn, as I learn, I'll take that for just myself. Everything is

James (00:02:44):
As a learning opportunity. And, um, you know, we, we, uh, we want to take this time just to of course, thank, um, Simon and the team. Uh, and everyone that's contributed to Fody and every single open source project out there, um, for being awesome. And we will love all of you. And, uh, and of course we'd love to Simon on to talk about Fody itself. So we reached out and maybe we'll have Simon on, in a future podcast. Uh, so, um, yeah, if you have any comments or want to let us know, uh, go ahead and go to merge conflict at IFM, you can hit the contact button and, uh, we'll go from there. So with that, we will go into our WWDC recap. This is our special time every year where we talk about w WDC do world wide developers conference. Yes, James, it has happened.

James (00:03:28):
Apple has told us how we're spending our summers and while I always want to be positive toward the programming community. Um, I have a lot of things to say about all the stuff that was announced here. So I I'm going to keep it positive though, in the spirit of all the lessons learned, but this is going to be a fun one, because there were a lot of things announced, you know, there was one big thing, but I feel like it was just a lot of little things. And I feel like that happens every year. We're at the stage where the platform is so big that even if you just do little improvements to every part of it, that's just a lot of things. So I'm curious to see how long this episode is going to be. Yeah, it's a, you know, I think this is true of every single major tech conference.

James (00:04:12):
So Google IO build and WWDC, they continue to grow as the development platform continues to grow. And you see this with Google IO while they didn't have it this year, I've attended many of them. And it, when it first wins, it was very dedicated on, uh, like Chrome and Android development. And then it went to Firebase and then it went to flutter development. And then it went to that has like all the Google, uh, Google cloud services. And like, you know, has all of these things where I remember going to the first Google Iona was basically just Android development and that was it. And now it's all the things, and, and there are major keynotes inside of there, but it's, it's not an Android conference anymore. It is all things Google. And this is now all things Apple just like build was all things in Microsoft.

James (00:04:57):
Right. When I attended, um, build back in Redmond, I went to, uh, PDC before build. There was literally four times in four built in the before times, there was, there was literally three tracks, which was Azure. I know maybe two tracks, I think it was Azure and windows like that was it. Like, those were the two things and, and it was all Azure and really just.net. Right? And then this, and these things were newer where nowadays you go to build and it's all the things, right? It's all the Don net, it's all of the different programming languages, all of Azure, it's all the operating systems. It's all of the browser. It's all of the different tooling that is out there. And Apple has been evolving and continuously evolving their operating systems with things like iPad iOS, they've added new devices with watch and TBOs, but nowadays they have even more services.

James (00:05:50):
And there's just so much in the core system. And I think what's unique now is that last year they started in this year, they are finalizing the push to make Macko as the desktop, again, a key focal point of the entirety of the platform. So there's so much in here to really unpack, but I think before we go and unpack each platform like we've done in the past, let's first recognize that, um, this year was the most worldwide of the developer conferences, just like build was, which is everybody in the entire world could go for free, which is awesome. And there were very different conferences by the way of build and Apple. They're very different while both being online.

Frank (00:06:37):
Yeah. It's fun to play. Compare and contrast with Microsoft reverses. Uh, Apple, Microsoft was almost like a talk show. It felt like they were kind of doing like a Jimmy Fallon thing throughout the entire thing and bring on a guest, have some things that was really fun. It was really casual. Um, Apple went with the, we are going to show you our gorgeous empty campus, thanks to the virus. Um, but with stunning camera movements and augmented reality displays to just, this is something I actually really loved, like Apple has been pushing AR and AR kit a lot. It was really wonderful to see them using that technology in the presentation. I don't know if they're actually using like AR kit to put screens up because those camera movements were gorgeous and that thing was locked on tight to the background. And sure they chewed in some place had lots of synthetic backgrounds, but man, great camera work, great production, quality, um, very, uh, 2001, a futuristic 1960s futuristic.

James (00:07:42):
Yeah. It's kind of gorgeous. I, I was very torn on this because I didn't know how to feel because I didn't know what I was looking at because everything was so shiny and pristine. There were reflections and there was focal. And then I'm looking at, you know, I'm looking at a hair follicles to see if things were green screened or not being real. And then the cuts obviously are like, you're in the same place I think, but maybe the whole campus looks identical. I don't really know. So it was very jarring because you know, it was so orchestrated. It was so production. And then I remembered Apple. Like they are a TV production house who really at the end of like Apple TV plus like they make films and TV.

Frank (00:08:27):
They could probably get a camera. They probably know someone who owns a camera. I think that's what we're saying. And a very expensive tracking rig. Cause I still, I like some of that. I don't, I don't know, I'm not a video person. How much of that was a virtual set, but it really looked like Tim was up there running up some stairs. Right? Like you can't do that on a pure green screen. That would be too much. Uh, anyway, fun. I, I was really curious if it was just going to be a giant zoom call to honest, I'm like, how much are they going to do here? How much production work are they going to do? And Apple true to their nature. A ton of production work. Yeah. And yeah,

James (00:09:05):
They did something different. So day one, I, I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed how they do this, which was, they have the big keynote, two hours long, and then they had a platform, deep dives and there was just two or three sessions or something like that day one. And that was it. They were longer, they were more intense. They were all the, all the features. It was, um, keynote. It was in platform state of the union. And then that was kind of it, there was like a Q and a thing and a, you know, little shorter things, but that was kind of all day one. And, uh, it was a lot to take in.

Frank (00:09:38):
Yeah, it's good that way. Because like, if you're an Apple nerd like me for the last six months, or like, what are they going to announce, especially with the virus that screws up all kinds of schedules, like what's actually going to make it into this release. And so just Monday is here. We're just going to give you a broad overview of everything and let you process that overnight. Hopefully you'll come in refreshed, ready to learn the exact technologies that you're most interested or slash most fearful of. That's not my case sometimes. Yeah.

James (00:10:07):
Yeah. In comparison then all of the days. So right now we're recording this on the 23rd. And when you woke up in the morning, like just the videos were there and some of them are longer. Most of them around 20 minutes or some are 30, some are shorter 10 minutes and they're really high production value. Um, they're, you know, they're all inside of some studio usually or something like that. Some are just, you know, a video over a slideshow. There's a little bit difference there based on like where the person could be, but they're all really high end videos that I can sell, at least from the few that I've scrubbed through. But then the next few days you can't get there yet, you know, and they just sort of unlock as time goes on. I'm not sure why that is. Um, but no, nothing is live like nothing. There's not one thing live. There's no interaction. There are new forums. But beyond that, it's just, here's a bunch of videos.

Frank (00:11:01):
Yeah. And I almost prefer that because, um, Q and a sessions tend to get clipped off anyway and Apple released videos. And so I like them emphasizing the forums and they did a forum makeover and who knows how much information is going to get lost in that forum makeover as happens with every kind of forum makeover. But at least a forum is a record until the next makeover, but it's a record that you can search. So you don't always have to ask your own question or feel silly because you can't figure something out. You can let someone else feel silly and post a question for you. So I actually kind of prefer that, um, you know, in this age of video conferences, I don't see much purpose in the live, like maybe a live chat room afterwards, but not for the, um, not for the presentation itself.

Frank (00:11:52):
I don't see the need. Yeah. It's really, it's a, it's a struggle. I knew that, um, when build, they had sessions, some were prerecorded ahead of time. So there was just a bunch out, like as soon as the conference started, and then there were live sessions that were done in three time zones. So there, you know, you could see Scott and Scott, so Hunter and Hanselman at, you know, five, or like, I don't know, 11:00 AM, 5:00 PM and 3:00 AM, you know, so it had all the time zones and it was done live. And I dunno, I think that probably having everything live and trying to tune into everything is a little bit much. And then what's the delay in having the videos if they're simultaneously there, because I guess you could just show up at the end of the day and just say, okay, I can watch all the videos now.

Frank (00:12:39):
So I don't know if there's a big difference between, but yeah, the question is, do you want that Q and a, do you want that interaction or anything like that? Yeah. That more conference they feel. I think I don't even really like calling these video conferences cause it's a conference almost by definition. It's people getting together and talking to each other. So if you don't have that hallway conversation, I'm like, is it really a conference? I don't know. It's not the kind of program or conferences I'm used to, but at the same time, it's just playing that compare and contrast game. Microsoft was really bold in doing so much live content in multiple time zones. That is a huge amount of effort and organization. It's probably the same amount of effort as putting that much post production production quality into videos later. So it's just, where do you want to put your effort?

Frank (00:13:22):
It totally is. And it was a very, it's very different, you know, vibes to the day, which is again, I think at the end of the day, the outcome is the same, which is you have announced a bunch of stuff. And now you have a bunch of content to learn about this stuff. I mean, to be honest, it's, it's similar. Um, I liked that they also did have one on one labs you could sign up for. So there was some interactive labs, which I think was kind of cool. But, uh, besides that, like that's it, you can see, I learned something I didn't, I didn't know about the labs. I did see the lab tab box and the app, but I'd never even bothered to look at it and see if it worked. So that's cool. I mean, you can do like code reviews and deep dive and whatnot and yeah, it's just all there.

Frank (00:14:03):
So if you're looking to go watch some stuff, you got plenty of time, that is for sure that you can spend on it. This is perfect. So now we can be the TV guide we can be like, here are the, here are the parts. At least I find interesting. I'm curious to see which parts do you find interesting out of all the announcements. So we'll do our own summarized keynote. Now, I guess I wonder where we should start. Which platforms do you think are most important slash least important to you, James? Okay. Let's just do what Apple did. Let's get the, let's get the footnotes out of the way. Let's start with TBOs right. Nothing. What's moved to watch OOS. Perfect. Now [inaudible] uh, is happening. There's some new SDKs, nothing revolutionary. It's some of the features that iOS and iPad iOS are getting like search and picture and picture, which is cool.

Frank (00:14:57):
Um, and four K HDR airplay, which I can't believe they can put that many bits over, but good job Apple. It's a lot of bits, a lot of bits. It's a lot of, I don't even have any 4k content, so I'm sure, I guess the video games can do it. So if you use like modern renders, you can generate four K not like movies, but you know, computer graphics. Yes. Yeah. All right. Well that was fun. Apple TV. Don't watch, watch, watch, watch, watch. Um, I really don't remember anything here other than, um, uh, complications have gotten a little more sophisticated where you can use Swift UI to create complications. Now I believe. Yeah. Was that the big announcement was that it, that, so there's a few big announcements. Biggest one is a clock kit. Lets you do all of the multiple complications. Uh, and you can cause before your app could only show like one complication at a time or something like that.

Frank (00:15:59):
I'm like, why can't I just have to say, we still can't make watch faces. So just like give him a few more years, give them a few more. I'm just going to keep rolling my eyes until we can make, watch faces and, and that's pretty much it you're right. Swift UI. I'm now fully Swift. Do I fully embrace is watch West development sort of end to end. Uh, that is the, the big two things that I can see. And that is from a dev point, but not from a feature point. So you gotta distinguish developer point from this is now built in right into the work. So that's our difference. So what builtin feature now it can tell you if you're dancing. Well, I believe it's that shot Shaw. Uh, what else did he say? Um, but it's going to grade you on your dancing.

Frank (00:16:46):
How much fun you're having. If you have a smile on your face, if your arms are in the right position, I hope I'm making fun, but I like to see this, um, full sensor integration, Apple, if there was a theme this year, they're really pushing their AI and AI device machine learning. And they've really done a lot of sensor fusion to get to the point where they can detect dances and other poly rhythm stuff. I'm sure which I find funny because I used to work on like a little Kung Fu app that would tell you if you're doing your Kung Fu forms. Right. And even with some very basic AI, it was working really well. So I have to imagine that the software is really decent. Yeah. They have, um, they have not only the dance stuff, but they also have hand washing recognition, which I think is cool.

Frank (00:17:35):
Yeah. Uh, why not? Uh, I hate my watch telling me to breathe. My watch, telling me to stand up and now it's gonna make fun of me for not washing my hands. Well, it's basically a guilt device. I'm strapping a guilt device to my wrist. Yeah. They did a bunch of other stuff. Right. They have bike routes on it, which is cool that the hands washed off that I said, um, they have some Siri updates that are going on there. There's I mean, there's a lot of fitness stuff. I think the biggest sherlocking is the sleep app. Sorry. Oh, right. Yeah. This is a pretty big market. Yeah, definitely. There's a lot of apps out there. Industry leaders swap from time to time. It's a fashionable market. Um, there's a lot of theories on which is the best way to track. And Apple has entered that market pretty gutsy, but we could see this coming because they've been doing like those night modes and weird things like that with, you know, changing the color grade of your video and stuff like that.

Frank (00:18:33):
So they're definitely into sleep in a way that I'm not into are you into sleep tracking and all that? Nope. I don't track anything don't care. Nope. I sleep when I'm tired. Try to stay awake when I'm not trying to weigh my golf. Yeah. I think they have a good idea, which is like wind down, wake up. And if you have a hard time sleeping or a hard time waking up, I'm sure there's things that the watch can do to really help. So I think that's cool. And if you're into spelt in isn't it like someone telling you don't think of a pink elephant, like Hey time for you to start sleeping now it's like, I just, I can't be commanded as wow. I don't get it. I honestly think the biggest thing for developers is the complications. But surprisingly more than that, the thing with complications is that if you're building watch stuff, app stuff, you want to have complications because there's this new sharing of watch faces.

Frank (00:19:27):
I think this is the coolest part. It's almost like we chat, um, with like their app platform and you can like share an app via a link or by scanning something. So now you can say, Hey, this is my watch face. Like imagine you and I are going to go kayaking. And you've created the ultimate kayaking watch case. And you can say, Hey James, like check this out and you can text it to me, email or just post a link online. And boom, I get that watch face with all the complications set on my watch. And that's kinda cool. Okay. I dig that. Uh, I totally missed that. And the keynote, a little bit of context here. I was mopping the floor and watching the keynote on an iPhone precariously balanced on a window cell. Oh geez. There might be small blank spots in my knowledge here. And that is a really cool feature. Um, you're kind of making me wonder why it hasn't always been there. It seems so obvious in retrospect, but that's fantastic. Yeah, that's it. That's the big one. That's the big one. That's the watch. Yeah. I think the watch got its biggest upgrade. Um, what a year or two ago when a watch apps became independent. So it's just growth of the platform at that point, I guess let's move on to iOS my buddy iOS my career. The thing that I make my money and surprisingly

James (00:20:48):
Not the last thing we're talking about. We want to point that out. We're going order of what we deemed to be the most important. There's other stuff beyond this,

Frank (00:20:57):
Do you think so? Well, it doesn't get much more important than widgets on the home screen. No James, whatever. Okay. So that's a user feature you don't care about as an Android user. Aren't you excited

James (00:21:08):
As an Android user. I've had these forever now here's the, here's what I call what they do with iOS because there's a lot of people online. That'll say, well, windows phone had this feature or Android had this feature for a long time. And Apple always says, Oh, we reinvented everything well, it's, you know, it's the most amazing thing ever. It's like, Oh, it's okay. It may not be the first time that you've seen a widget on a home screen. Right. But it's how they introduce it. That it's new and revolutionary to iOS. It's not that it's revolutionary to the world. It's a revolution in iOS. And of course it's super thoughtful. I mean, how you construct the UI with, um, with Swift UI and the, um, archiving or however you do it, even without sweat do I with archiving that they put in. So snapshotting so like the developers just kind of normally do their thing and it just kinda works.

James (00:22:02):
Uh, the resizing, the new sort of app library, which is very Andretti putting that together. I think the, uh, being able to stack widgets, sorta a lot of things automatically happen where on Android we've had widgets, but the widget framework to build them, hasn't been updated in six years. Most developers, I think, just forget to do them. You know, I, I do have a widget on my home screen it's the time. And it has all the different time zones of all my teammates, wherever they're at in the world. So I can keep up to date with them and that's it. And everything else I've taken off because it's just kind of clutter. And here, it seems as though Apple is going to be prescriptive, which is here, is how you sort of build and what widgets should look like. And here's how they resize. So you get these three sizes and you don't get to be, you know, different craziness, you know? Uh, and I think that the widgets are nice. Cause it feels as though it is the correction of the, what's the things, uh, the, today widgets on the left hand side, when you swipe over that have to update all slowly. Like that feels like a V one. This feels like the progression of we fixed that thing that was slow that he didn't like to use at all. And it wasn't very, um, discoverable.

Frank (00:23:21):
Yeah. Once you hide a user interface behind the second screen or yeah, just a second screen for me. I never come off with a home screen. It's gone because I think one way you do is you can pull down from the top and swipe over to it. But if you pull down from the top, you want your notifications. That's what that means. Like everyone knows what that means. So one thing that they did was redesign all the existing widgets, cause these were there in the today area, like you were saying, they're just now on, uh, the proper home screen. And so they had to redesign them and give them a fair amount of treatment. I would say they're pretty heavily designed. Um, so I think that's Apple saying you better make yours look good. They just wanted to make sure that there's kind of look the best.

Frank (00:24:06):
And they're very modern. They're very easy to read, very nicely done. I'm still on the kind of iOS seven, but we're growing out of it. We're adding more drop shadows these days more gradients and places. So as an app developer, um, I love it because I love being able to put my app up there. Uh, I do have some hesitations. One is, yeah, you'd better make these things look good too, as they're read only. So I don't even like calling them widgets cause forever widgets meant user interactive things. These are not interactive. If you tap on it, it's taking you to the app. Um, there are so I can't put like a little Kalka there, you know, with tiny little buttons, even though I desperately want to. I can't. Um, yeah. I wonder if you can do, I wonder if you know where they tapped on it, so you could at least go to different parts of the app either way. Yeah.

James (00:24:59):
Yeah. That is a, that is probably the bigger conundrum. Is that with Android, which is, I don't think you could make it, you can make it interactive, but not overly interactive. So you could add buttons and do stuff to it. But I don't know if you could, you know, like put a plus button and then add a text box. I don't know if you could, I have to maybe boot some up, but, but you know, that's the one thing is that you actually had buttons and you could say the user clicked on new Calca thing and then it could go into the app and go to a specific point. Um, which would be kind of nice if I look at my widgets, what do I have? I have clock Chrome. I guess I have a search button contacts. That's probably one of my favorites because you can just pin a contact.

James (00:25:46):
Let's say if I put GML over here, right? So I'm gonna put Gmail, this is on Android and I'm going to choose my account, Sam and my primary. And then yeah, if I just hit the compose button, it goes in and it composes a new message. So it does exactly what I want, but I can also scroll, like I can scroll through all of my and load more. I can say view more and then August, it just opens the app, but you know, [inaudible], but I can also say, show me my primary folders, show me my junk mail, show me whatever. Right? So it's very customizable where these are while they're a reinvention of the today widget, they are still kind of a, here's a [inaudible] and they all look really pretty, but they don't, they're not smart. They're not smart widgets.

Frank (00:26:28):
They do update those as far as I understand, pretty regularly. And as far as I can tell, this is a slight unification between the iOS world and the watch world, where if you did a complication on the watch, you don't just ever do one complication, actually give it a timeline and say how that complication changes over time. And I believe that you do the same thing with, uh, these widgets. You give it a timeline, not just exactly one image, for example. Yeah. I believe that's how it works too. That's how they were describing it, which I think is really cool compared to Android, which I believe is like running code and like getting update requests and things like that. So it's little bit more how to keep that battery going, got to keep this thing alive. Yeah. Uh, there was a weird feature introduced James and I feel like these have an impact to app developers, but at the same time, I have no idea how to use them a feature called app clips. And the idea seems to be here that with a mere QR code or a, what are those near field devices called NFC near field communication devices. Don't mock out my brain more near field communication thing. Call what is that thing called? I'm really not good at acronyms. Okay. Uh, and I see, and with an even crazier APOE code thing, you can launch many apps that have like automatically downloaded from the app store, crazy times chains. Well, they're not, they're not any

James (00:28:05):
Apps. They're part of your app. They're a slice if you will, of your application. Uh, and this is a feature that is similar to Android, instant apps and the concept of Android instant app was, Hey, I'm on a website and or I'm on Google. And I see a link for Yelp. And instead of installing the Yelp app, it installs the instant app where I get part of the application and I can kind of do some stuff and try to download the app later. And the goal of instant app was like, Hey, this application is just a few megs. So you can download over, you know, LTE or 3g and not have to really be concerned about downloading a hundred Meg app right now. And app clips. That's the same concept. Right? And again, this is, I always call it every year. Like iOS is becoming more like Android, Android is becoming more like iOS.

James (00:28:58):
And like they all do it a little bit different. And with instant apps, Google kind of put it out there and like they did it for like one or two of their apps. And then they're like, okay, you know, like, yeah, but imagine here's the, here's the perfect scenario for either of these is you walk into an Apple store and you want to buy something. When you just want to buy something today, you'd probably have to go talk to somebody. Heaven forbid that'd be terrible. Or you would install the Apple store app. What if you didn't have to, what if you could scan a QR code and you get the instant app, which has only three megs loads near instantaneous, you log in with your Apple ID, you log in and pay with Apple pay and you're in and out of the store in 30 seconds instead of having to wait while you're inside of a mall.

James (00:29:43):
I mean, none of this is you can't go anywhere right now. So it doesn't matter, but it can, you know, conceptually you have this little popup and it could be even where you geocode something where like your, they show it where you're like next to a scooter, but you there's like a NFC code or something like that. There's like, Hey, here it is. And it sort of pops up this little banner that says, yeah, open the app, right. To unlock the scooter. You don't need to download the app. You can just unlock it right here. And, uh, you know, you have 10 megs of size. So very small. I don't know if that's going to work in a Xamarin app or not, or how that 10 megs is calculated. You know what I mean? Um, but I like that. It's not just like, I don't actually have any idea how Android instant apps really we're going to work where with app clips, Apple did something, which is, they said, you can scan a QR code.

James (00:30:36):
There could be a banner in Safari. You can have links in messages. You can have, uh, in your Apple maps, you can have, uh, on any business can have one. And also those NFC chips, you can literally, if you're a business and you have an app, you can create this thing or, you know, whatever, you walk into a target, boom, you, you can do whatever. It's a coupon app. It to whatever you could have all sorts of different kinds of crazy app clips, right? Imagine target, instead of building tons of junk into their app, they just have a bunch of app clips that are short lived. They get deleted off of your app off your device after some time. And that's what it is.

Frank (00:31:15):
Yeah. I like this. I'm still trying to think of how I'm personally going to take advantage of it as an app developer, but as an Apple user, I know I'm going to like it because they're really pushing a sign in with Apple and Apple pay. If you actually want to do any kind of money type stuff with these little app clips, I don't know if it's a hundred percent required, but they're definitely pushing it. And as someone who lives in a city full of weird devices laying around on the street, that I can ostensibly pick up and use, I have the hardest time with the apps, like specifically the Uber app. They have just messed up my account to upload into weather. I just can't sign in. Like, there's no way I can use any Uber product at this point. And so it'd be wonderful if they actually adopt this and I could do like sign in with Apple and actually use that stuff.

Frank (00:32:07):
I, you know, for the kind of apps I write, I don't know how I'm going to use this, but I can see this. I wish I, we lived in a world where all of this worked, where if I was at some random little restaurant, I could get their menu app without going to their website without downloading their really big app, just like the temporary downloaded their app. I like that idea that it's just kind of a temporary download on demand. Yep. Very nice. And just, just to your point about the megabytes, um, I think like a hello world Xamarin app is like four or five megabytes right now, so we should be fine. Um, it's just going to be, if you start heading a lot of big images and things like that, obviously.

James (00:32:45):
Yeah. That's what I wasn't really sure about and how it's going to work. And again, how it's calculated and whatnot, but I don't actually know even how they're going to be, you know, you know, incorporated, like, are they a separate app type of thing? Like, I don't know what, how it's going to

Frank (00:33:00):
Extension. I was assuming it was going to be an extension, but it probably is. No, actually I take that back. I probably is a whole different IPA just for the distribution model.

James (00:33:11):
You know, it's still probably going through the app store. That's one degree and that, and that would be fascinating. And I kind of want to understand exactly how that is going to work. I guess we could just install X code 12 and give, give it a try. And, um, it says, it says app clip is a small part of your app it's developed in the same excode project as your full app. And because it's a small, because it's small flip can, that's what it says. So I guess it's not an app store trick. They're able to pull it off. Yeah.

Frank (00:33:45):
Magic. The magic of app distribution. It's kind of interesting because it's almost a competitor to the web. It's trying to give you that very quick experience where even websites these days can be 10 megabytes. So the 10 megabytes is nothing. It's just, it's the ephemeral ness, the temporariness quite interesting. I kind of hope people do adopt them.

James (00:34:07):
Yeah, it'll be fascinating. I, and by the way, I'm not actually a part of it's part of your app because I'm looking at the creating an app clip and it says, add an app, clip target app clips require a corresponding offers at least the same functionality as the app clip. And you'd typically use ex-co. So I think it's like an extension. That's what I, that's what it's, it's added to your project, but it's a whole different IPA for it is the parent application identifier entitlement. So that's basically exactly how it's done for, for extensions. So very similar, but fascinating that they say, you know, your main app has to have this type of functionality in there. And I love that they also have conditional compilation though, so you can share code and you can do if bang app clip to say, if it's not as an app clip, that's cool.

James (00:34:52):
Um, okay. Yeah, it'd be fascinating. And you know, I think that this'll be something that, again, it's going to be more niche. It's not going to be something that every developer, every app needs to do, it's going to be very consumer focused in general. I couldn't see any of my applications doing this or having any need for it. But as a consumer, I think it could be pretty, pretty cool. Just like I thought instant apps. But I think the difference between Android instant apps and this is that Apple is coming out and they push it into all of their applications heavily, then more developers, more users are gonna use it and know about it and more developers will then be inclined to do it. And that is what it will take because if nobody builds it and no new businesses come online and no one's going to do it,

Frank (00:35:38):
You know? Yeah. If it's just Yelp, it won't take off. It's correct. Be more than Yelp. It's gotta be a bunch. Yeah.

James (00:35:46):
Uh, what else we got? What I want you to other features, right? There's a new search. That's cool. You don't wanna know my favorite feature. I'm going to tell you my favorite feature. I don't even, I don't own this product at all. And I probably won't new favorite feature. My fate. Here's my pick WWDC,

Frank (00:36:01):
My pic. Wow. I'm so excited for this cause it's not going to be anything I expected. I thought we were done with the iOS. Nope. Here's my pick

James (00:36:10):
Air pods. Spacial audio.

Frank (00:36:13):
Oh, dang. That thing is cool, dude. Okay. We have no idea if it's going to work, but they're promising a lot here. And the idea is it's not only going to track your head position, but the position of the phone so that someone on the left hand side of the phone will be in your left ear. And then you could move it around your head and make yourself in the matrix or something. I don't know. It's cool. I love signal processing. I love anything that interacts with the real world. So by definition, I love your pick, but I'm really curious to see if it works or whether it's going to be annoying. Cause they mentioned like when, if you're sitting on an airplane and the airplane banks, it's going to move the audio. It's like, well, I don't want that. I'm trying to watch a movie here.

James (00:37:00):
[inaudible] yeah. I'm, I'm fascinated. I don't know own air pod pros and it obviously won't work with Android. So none of this really matters to me that I don't own them either. I don't own them. I guess I'm going to have to know. I don't know if it couldn't be worth buying them. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. That's my contract and you don't know whether I should buy them and if I'll ever be able to own them or play them at all, but I mean a bunch of other cool stuff. Okay. Let me knock out a few things. A recording indicator. That's cool. You can see if there's a camera, microphone working new privacy information. That'll be scary for developers to figure out another favorite feature, approximate location. This is available on windows for a long time, but you can say I'm in and around Seattle weather application. You don't need to know where my address is. Um, upgrade to sign in with Apple. Can't wait to do that. That's really cool. Um, better the 30% given the 30% yet basically, um, you know, more CarPlay stuff. That's cool. Uh, what else can you do more?

Frank (00:38:00):
The user privacy? I don't want to go over that too faster than to say. Um, this has been a big change. Anyone who's been submitting apps, you have to have a privacy policy with your apps. Now, I guess there's going to be a more detailed kind of checklist. I'm assuming kind of interface that we're all going to have to do now when submitting apps. So that's definitely going to affect all of us, but hopefully it won't be a hard checklist, a hard quiz.

James (00:38:23):
I do like this. This is very, very, very, very good. And I appreciate it. Um, and you know, it'll be like one more thing I gotta do, but um, yeah. What else is in there? It's a

Frank (00:38:33):
Good that's that's that? Cause we can talk about iPad and, and make the transition over. I don't actually like distinguishing between the two, cause it's all the same code, but yeah. Um, I mean they, they did make some changes and I think some of them are backporting cause they did picture and picture, which was on iPad iOS first and that's being added to the iPhone, which is really nice. Like Siri is being squished off to the, uh, top also. So a lot of these full screen UIs are being made, not full screen anymore, which I think is just good for you. So ability, no one wants modal interfaces

James (00:39:11):
Really going in on the big theme that I noticed on iPad and desktop is they're going all in on the fly out navigation. Like they're like, it's all about having the fly out, always open all the time. Like I, so it's not a fly out. It's just always open all the time and they call it up a site,

Frank (00:39:30):
Sidebar, sidebar, James not fly out. We definitely not a hamburger menu in sight, but we do have fly out menus everywhere. I'm curious to see. Cause like I started watching the state of the union and they're like, if you're using UI split view, you're fine. I'm like, is that it? Then? It's what's the difference. Oh, okay. Well they did show a three pane view. Normally with UI split view, you get a two pane view, two pane view. I'm sorry. Now I'm just getting recollections of the Microsoft, uh, uh, dual screen devices to pain, to pain view to fame view. Uh, so they're, they're, they're promoting uh, multiple windows, which we actually got and the previous version, but I don't know a single developer that's implemented it yet. I still haven't put it into my apps just because it's a pretty major change to your app. But the cool thing is, um, they've improved basically, uh, drag and drop and yeah, just POS that UI, anyone who's done side by side apps and iPad knows that it can go nowhere but improve. So I can't wait to see the improvements that they put here.

James (00:40:45):
Yeah. I feel like that's, that's what I notice a lot of they're like, you know, we want that navigation. There's a lot of applications that are doing like files or photos. I think this would be good for I circuit obviously there's locations and there's more standardization of what they want it to look like you said, drag and drop. Um, yeah, I think they're just sort of refining it. Uh, they have refined the text entry feel that can now take in text automatically from Apple pencil. That seems cool. Like no developer work. That's nice.

Frank (00:41:15):
I have to pause here because someone's got to say, you know, Microsoft had that 8 billion years ago and they did, Microsoft was always the leader when it came to scribbling junk. So that's actually just nice to see Apple catch up because we've all been waiting for them to add scribble support. So this is really good. Yeah. The scribble support and the selection support looks great. Like I said, I don't know if that's all new. They added that feature. I think you develop shape recognition. Yeah. I feel bad because I've written so many faiths of face, shape recognition apps, and I've never released one. So like I waited so long that Apple just baked it into the OS. And I just feel terrible about that. Uh, a lot of this comes with pencil kit, which is their kind of general drawing API that you can add to an app.

Frank (00:42:06):
So say you have an app that you want to allow people to take annotations or scribble on something. That's really easy to do that. I haven't integrated that into any of my apps either. I feel I'm really falling behind on all these fancy features of the operating system. But some of these are kind of niche. Like you only really need one note taking app. You don't need 20 note taking apps. Yeah. It's cool that it exists. And those are like kind of dropping controls, but um, yeah. Oh, but speaking of dropping controls, you know, we did finally get an iOS and this is a very long time coming. God I've written so many of these. We finally have a color picker control. Oh, I saw that. So I love it. Amazing. So good. Oh my God. I can't believe we've made it 13, 14 versions before getting a color picker.

Frank (00:42:54):
I got it. I'm so tired of writing that control. I am. Cause yeah, this will be nice because you'll actually be able to save colors between, um, apps. I think there's system wide colors that you can save to a palette and as a color freak, I love that. Great. The question I had was is that color picker only part of Apple kit or I could tell pen kid or whatever. Yeah. I think they were a tiny bit misleading as far as I could tell it's available everywhere and it's just featured in pencil kid or whatever. That's good. That's good. That's the way I took it at least. Yeah. It's really important. There were some really cool, um, iPad things just as a robotics nerd. Uh, they put the connect on the back of the iPad and it can like scan the room and give you a depth field of the room.

Frank (00:43:48):
There's actually been a trick you've been able to do with the iPhone for a little while. Now, ever since we got two cameras, you could do, um, a really poor quality stereoscopic vision where it would try to create a depth map of the room. So you could tell one object was nearer farther than another object. The problem was, it's not calibrated. You can't say is a three meters away or two meters away. You don't know it's a weird optical space, but with a proper, I don't know, is it LIDAR? Whatever the actual scanner is it LIDAR? Geez, that's so cool. I have to go buy one of these. Uh, you can actually get a three D scan of the room and there are API APIs to access that depth map nicely now, which is the future dude. Like I just want to build a robot around this iPad, buy this iPad and build them some flags and some wheels and you know, let them explore the world.

Frank (00:44:39):
Go off iPad. Yeah, I think that, that one's the coolest, so that's part of AR kit four, which is the depth API and the LIDAR scanner. Uh, it's super cool. They had a great demo for it. Again, this is something that may not be in every single application, but very cool that it exists and that, I mean, these machines are crazy. It is kind of, that's just like the technologist nerd in me is just like, yeah, I want a three D scan the room. I have no use for that three D scan, but maybe I'll three D print my room. And then that would be weird. Maybe I won't, besides the iPhone, the iPad. Do you want to talk about some risky things that they decided to announce? I like what you did there, you're like a professional. Um, are you talking about, uh, Apple Silicon system?

Frank (00:45:29):
Yeah. I'm talking about that. SOC that risk architecture, that arm SOC the silica calling it arm, stop trying to make arm happen. It's arm, it's an arm processor. It's literally the iPad processor in a slightly different configuration there. They actually called it the a 12 Z and I believe the eight, 12 X is in the iPad. Uh, something along those lines. But yeah, this is a pretty big deal. When I very first got into writing Apple stuff, they were just making the switch from power PC to Intel. So when I first professionally got into Apple, um, I was a part of that transition because the first Apple computer I bought was the power PC. And I later sold it for a lot less money, but, um, I always was amazed at how well they pulled off an architecture change. And the big news here, if you didn't catch the keynote is there's an architecture change coming up for Macintosh computers, none of the iOS stuff, but the Macintosh, how crazy times do we live in?

Frank (00:46:39):
And it is, uh, and I mean, they kinda didn't do this that long ago. They, they, they didn't form a process or change, but they did force a 64 bit change if you remember. Yeah. And they did it a lot more aggressively than Microsoft, Microsoft, sorry to always, probably compare contrast. That's just how I work. Um, but it's just different ways to do it. Microsoft has kept 32 bare compatibility for a long time now, uh, to the point where I think visual studio is still a 32 bed app for lots of engineering reasons. Uh, but Apple was pretty aggressive in saying, no, no, we're not accepting 32 bit apps to the store anymore. That processor is dead. We're not even talking about it anymore. So just different approaches. And we can kind of see why they were trying to narrow the field for what they're going to have to support on this new processor.

Frank (00:47:34):
But Frank, if this is a whole different architecture and my application is compiled for X 64, how is my application going to run on an arm processor? Oh my God, just pure magic at this point, I believe it's Egypt magic in this case. Um, this is crazy man, Rosetta too. So Rosetta is, and I might get this wrong, cause I don't know. My Apple history was Rosetta to run power PC apps on Intel, or was it to run 68,000 apps on power PC? I don't know, not one or the other, either way crazy feed of software engineering that is going to convert a 64 bit Intel, uh, executable into a 64 bit arm executable, which, you know, it's theoretically possible, but I wouldn't want to write that code. Do you know how big the Intel instruction set is? It's ridiculous, like AVX five, 12 AVX two 56, whatever they're up to.

Frank (00:48:40):
It's a huge instruction set. I hope whoever did this work gets the two year vacation. Now they did also like they, you know, this is a little bit different. We haven't even talked about this on navels, but you know, they have, for all intents, you know, ported over all the frameworks and the majority of even third party frameworks from x86 to the Apple, Silicon architecture of the arm architecture. And that's a big chunk of this too. So someone did that, but then Rosetta says, Hey, like resident two literally says, Hey, you haven't even changed your application and we're just going to make it work in. Now I will also say that, like this has been done before an emulation software, uh, like the, the Microsoft has arm machines, the surface X, you know, that came out that was running an arm processor and had it virtualization that would run x86 and an AR mode and things like that. Now Apple is saying that it's going to be, I think at install time and it's going to be near one to one performance. I need to get my hands on a machine and actually test.

Frank (00:49:53):
I mean, that's a bold promise, my friend, uh, but I don't know it is. I mean, just from a computer science standpoint, 64 bit processors can be slower just because there's more memory moving around. It's just more stuff to do. So two processors at the same rate, you make a 64 bit the more point or work it does the slower it gets. That's simple, but they're hoping for efficiency gains and other places than just, uh, and pure clock speed and things like that. Uh, so real quick, as far as I remember, the Microsoft thing was only able to do 32 bit Intel on arm at speed. Whereas this is doing 64 bit apps at speed. That is again, it's just crazy. That is correct. Yeah. And it's funny cause they use the term, um, ahead of time it's AOT. So just like we've been doing with Xamarin all these, all these years, uh, their AOT, your Intel. So now Intel is the new intermediate, which is the absolute worst intermediate language. If I haven't made it clear, it's a train wreck of an instruction. So you don't, Oh gosh, I just feel so bad for that team. I hope they paid them and vodka martinis.

James (00:51:05):
I'm sure they're doing okay. I'm sure they're doing just fine. Uh, no, I mean, I think this is a huge, a huge deal because you know, Apple has always wanted to control the supply chain end to end, and they've done a great job of that. Um, the iPhone, uh, specifically, you know, they've pushed that over more end to end of them controlling it. And this is finally them sort of going back on the Mac and wanting to control it end to end. And they've made such gains and strides on the mobile and iPad processors that they want to leverage that over. Will it be amazing this fall when they say it's going to release? I don't know, but will it continuously get better for sure. And they even said, they're going to continue to ship, you know, IBM, IBM Intel based processor max for some time.

James (00:51:55):
And obviously they just came out with a Mac pro and a bunch of other stuff. So it'll be fascinating to see where they introduce us. Like, are they going to introduce it in higher end machines or lower end machines first? And what will the limitations be? Because their goal is that everything will just work. Uh, and you know, cutting out the X six X 86 and going with X 64 gives them one route to say, Hey, we only support one now to have this, but it seems like they were there. They showed off unity. They showed a Photoshop, they showed up Microsoft office. So everything just sorta kind of worked. But the biggest part of this by the way is the evolution of catalyst. But it's not even an evolution. It's something that, it's something that like, if you don't do catalyst, Apple's just going to do catalyst for you anyways. That's what this is. But they would really like you to catalyst, which is with this transition into Apple, Silicon, every single iOS application, an iPad iOS application will just work on the Mac. Right.

Frank (00:53:00):
Which is just bonkers. It makes perfect sense if you say, yeah, it's the iPad processor, of course. But of course is actually 10 years of engineering effort and all that stuff to make something like that happen that really is mind blowing. Like in an ideal world, we would all just trash our x86 max right now and get these arm ones. So we can all just be rocking iOS apps. And I think that that is a huge takeaway from both the iOS and Mac is that they really are merging our apples, trying to get them to merge. Yeah. I mean, you can just guess that like there is a touchscreen, a calmer computer coming like any day whenever they can get it, the stupid thing finished, I'm sure they want to get it out. And you can just from the visuals, like the tool bar on the Mac, uh, and as toolbar is no longer this gray gradient thing, it's this flat white color that looks like an iPad toolbar.

Frank (00:53:59):
You don't have, um, borders around buttons. Uh, you, they look like iPad buttons, go figure. So, um, there are definitely parts of the Mac community that are going to be, feel a little betrayed that the UI is going so heavily in the iOS seven director direction. But it's just the biggest, obvious clue Apple can say to Dez is prioritize this kind of user interface. This is the future. Ideally for us start with an iPad app, use UI kit in a lot of ways. This is writing on the wall for advocate. I'm sure app kit is going to be around forever, but Apple's definitely pushing everyone in the direction of either write your application, targeting iPad, OSTP, and UI kit. Therefore it'll run on all of our platforms or use this new thing, Swift UI that we're going to also try to get that to run on all platforms either way. We're a unifying, the user interface here, uh, catch up quickly.

James (00:55:00):
That is correct. Yeah. And, and, and when you look at it, they're now moving more and more applications over to either use this or project catalyst. And in fact, you heavily saw them push project catalyst because yeah, with catalyst, you get a bunch of other toolbars and they made it a point. They ran monument Valley the game and they said, it looks, it looks great. That mouse clicks look rate as, I mean, light touch. You do get bars up top, right. And on the menu bars, they're all empty basically. And they're all disabled because you haven't done anything there. Cause it's not a catalyst app, but here's what real catalyst apps look like. And you can tie in deeply into the bars, into the fly outs and everything like that. And that's what they want to push and you'll get other stuff with it too. I think you're going to get all of those widgets and all those other things will just come along for the ride. Ideally. Um, yeah. I'm color picker. You get to color picker. And to be honest, that's one less app icon I pro I hopefully they simply,

Frank (00:56:03):
Yeah, no kidding. Just boom done. Yeah. Um, I mean, they were courageous enough to do the messages app, which I think is something as a user, we've all been requesting. Cause there was just a dissimilarity between the Mac version and the iOS version. And as someone who maintains apps on multiple, I get it. I totally get it Apple. I know why it happens. It's exactly the reason why I want all my ads to be catalyst apps. Because as much as I love the Mac, I'm customizing a user interface to a mode of operation is so much easier than maintaining two different versions of an app. All the, all the Xamarin forms, people know this, they know this. It's why Xamarin forms is so popular. Well, the same thing is trying to happen over in the iOS world with catalyst. And in 10 years from now, every Mac computer will be running iOS apps.

Frank (00:56:59):
But before that 10 years happens, we need to start using catalyst. Something that you brought up earlier that I found interesting. What an, a big, uh, question that I have is what will the first, uh, Apple can computer be? My guests is an air, a touchscreen air. Something like that's basically an iPad with a keyboard. That's running Mac iOS instead of iOS, but they actually I'll stop there. But then I have another prediction. Do you have anything to say about, I don't think they're going to do a test screen this year. I don't think it will be a touch screen, I think next year. Not yet next year. Okay. Next year we can consolidate more. Okay.

James (00:57:35):
What I think what they want to do is they want, they're gonna need to, it's a two year transition to over to this. I think by that point, they'll introduce some new touch screen, API APIs, give, you know, developers on a Mac time to move that stuff over, but then also give some time to optimize it. And I know that it's just, you know, there's already a touchscreen stuff and it should just map, but there's probably some work that they need to do in some of the controls and other things for it to work. So I'm not positive. I do think it will be a, uh, either an error, a Mac book. I think an air, I think an Aramaic sense. I'm a low end on the cheaper end. Hope. Yeah. Look, I don't see. I'm hoping I don't see it. The Mac mini doesn't really make any sense for it to go in there at all.

James (00:58:21):
But I feel like, like that could be like the developer machine that they do first, but they just bumped it. I don't see it in an iMac or an iMac pro. I feel like the Mac book air is probably the right place so they can really get down that price. And I mean the Mac book air is already starting at what, eight 99. Is that what I said right here? Nine 99, nine, nine, nine. Imagine they, you know, right now here's the, here's why I think that's important is that nine 99 is a 1.1 gigahertz dual core [inaudible] processor. Like this thing that they control and they own is probably going to blow it out of the water.

Frank (00:59:01):
Yeah. That's a very fair point because they kept saying how power efficient and scalable. They kept saying the word scale or architecture scale or architecture. In other words, we can put as many cores on here as we darn well, please. And it's probably going to be four to start with. Cause that's what the iPad is, you know, kind of a minimum, they'll probably be six or something, but that's where I actually get excited for the high end of this thing, because you see things that AMD are doing, but they're a thread ripper CPU where people are getting these 64 core CPU news. And I mean, there is hot as a sauna, but with a more efficient chip design, um, I could see 64 little arm cores powering a very nice supercomputer on someone's desktop. So within, you know, five to 10 years, I think that'd be really exciting.

James (00:59:58):
Yeah. And you know, there's obviously a lot of other new operating systems that have done this, you know, and try to go across blogger. I think Apple, they, they, they took a lot of time, right. And they have the ecosystem of apps and they're just saying, Hey, we can magically go here and do this thing. So I think that they get pretty lucky in that point and then help people migrate later. It's always easier to go from a small screen to a big screen and not vice versa. And that was sort of the challenge. Um, I think that's, you know, if you look at like windows phone and windows, desktop, you'd, you'd have to build them in unison. Whereas if you had windows phone for a long, long time and you're like, Hey, we're gonna bring all the windows phone apps over. Right. It would be the same thing. You don't see Apple doing, Hey, we're going to bring all of the Mac applications to the iPhone. They did not say that during this, by the way, even though technically it probably could. I don't know. I'm just saying,

Frank (01:00:53):
Um, it just depends. I, yeah. I don't think they have application running on iPad. I bet some people have guessed that they do because they people want them to have X code on the iPad and to make that happen, you have to put app kit on there. No, one's going to pour ex-co DUI kit. That's ridiculous. So there, there's always a question of deep in Apple's secret AR labs. Do they have apricots?

James (01:01:18):
I bet they do. I bet they do. And this is, you know, fundamentally, right. This is called big Sur as you are somewhere.

Frank (01:01:25):
Yeah. We forgot to mention its name. What do you think of that name? Big Sur. I don't know when I heard it when I heard it when mopping. I wasn't sure about the spelling, I guess like big Sur. Is that like some weird? I don't know. I wasn't sure if it was sir, but it's sir. It's I wonder what the etymology of the name is. I don't know the word

James (01:01:43):
Deserve big, sir. Is he rugged and mountainous section of central coast of California, but more importantly, it's macro S 11.

Frank (01:01:51):
Oh my God. I am going to have to audit every line of every code. Every app I've ever released. James, because I don't know about you, but I version check all the time. My apps are old enough that I have to version, check and worse on Mac version checking. Wasn't really supported in a good way until Mac 11 dot 10 and my app support 11 dot nine or 10 dot nine. Sorry. See, I've forgotten already. 10 dot nine, 10

James (01:02:20):
To 10. And now we're up to version 11. Everyone. You're going to have to audit your version. Checking code. Yeah. Hopefully that all just works out and is nice. But uh, yeah. Right. I dunno. I'm not going to happen. I'll tell you this much, you know, who will be able to test out their applications pretty soon? Oh, are you about to go low? That was James introducing his own gloating. I don't know James, who will be able to test their apps out soon. Well, technically anybody can install the preview of big Sur, but somebody can test their applications on Apple, Silicon. This guy who got a DTK. I did a developer transition kit. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That's right. I Frank paid $500 to lease a piece of hardware for a short amount of time that expensive. Like can't you get a couch for that much, at least like for renting a couch for a few months, it was expensive that, you know, here's the problem is that I, I remember when they did it with Apple TV, you could put, you could pay like a dollar and then they would send you an Apple TV.

James (01:03:25):
And I was like, I got one. Right? And I got one too. I love my $1 Apple TV, great deal. And it's a developer kit. It's all this stuff. Right. And then, um, I'm trying to sell it to a friend for $2, right. A hundred percent profit, but we're not technically allowed to sell it. Technically not allowed to. And uh, for this, it was $500 and it's, it's a Mac mini with Apple Silicon inside that, that, um, that the 12 Z processor that you said, and I didn't think much about it. And I was late to the game to doing my entry. So I submitted it and I woke up this morning and boom, an Apple from email and says, Hey, we love you. Uh, we would love to take your $500. So I gave it to them. And then you said, uh, don't forget to return that because they'll lock down your Apple developer account.

James (01:04:09):
I was like, I gotta return it. Um, and then I read the terms of agreement, which are publicly online. This is not NDA, uh, is yeah, you, you, you, you are borrowing it from them and then you will return it to them after the program ends within a certain amount of timing is 30 days. And, uh, it doesn't say I'm getting my money back. So, but I get to test two things. I get to test an actual Mac app, my stream timer, and ideally try to figure out how to run, uh, uh, Island tracker and some of my other iOS apps, which would be kind of cool. Yeah. I'm very jealous of you. I applied for the same program. I have not gotten the email and I've been rigorously looking at my email all day and it still hasn't arrived. It's like watching a pop, pop pop. I almost said that right anyway. Um, yeah, that's super cool. I wonder how hard it will be to get an iOS app on there because they were saying that that's all gonna happen magically through the app store when everything's released, but that's going to be some time we can guess from now. So I'm curious what you'll be able to with that, but the really thing is you'll

Frank (01:05:18):
Be able to create, um, universal apps and it's funny, you know, not universal windows apps, these are universal Apple apps and from one code base, you should be able to write, well, the most important thing, an Apple TV app. So obviously that's what you're going to target first. Right. And then from there, I guess you could run that on your Mac, your fancy Mac that I don't have, but I'm super jealous about, see, I need it because I need to know whether my apps are going to be performance or not, but the truth is, um, I'm just going to recompile my apps for the new architecture. I don't plan on, um, as much as I love that Rosetta technology that we were talking about earlier that translation technology, I'm definitely recompiling all my apps for the new processor and just going to have to, I guess, assume that they run well.

James (01:06:09):
Yeah. And that's, that's the, that's the part about it is, is I'm more interested in the iOS part because I don't know, like when or how, or, or if, you know, the Xamarin apps will get the catalyst support or not. So if that stuff just works great, like that could be fantastic. The Mac app, I assume I know that there's a bunch of GitHub threads from the Xamarin team, like talking about supporting all the new stuff. So again, it's quite a long time out, but yeah, I would just recompile my Mac application and they would just be done with it, which makes the most sense. Cause I even did that with like windows apps. When you create a windows desktop app, you can compile it for arm to like a UWP app and you can do that. So there's definitely that magical, just recompile and it'll work. And I think here is if it's not same day support or there, you know, are people that are developers where maybe you can't even update your app yet, you know? And they're like, I'm trying your app and it doesn't work. And you're like, okay, like, well I don't have a DTK so thanks.

Frank (01:07:15):
Yeah. Um, as.net developers, we're actually in a pretty lucky position because we distribute our apps for the most part as cross platform and processor agnostic. We're not recompiling code or anything like that. We ship them as assemblies and the majority of them work now, there are those annoying libraries out there that do have native compiled code in them. And unfortunately we'll have to wait for those to be refreshed. But my assumption is that this will go pretty smoothly for us. Um, usually with these architecture changes, it's literally just a compiler flag that they have to change. And so, you know, like maybe AOT will lag behind like, you know, may we'll get like normal support real quick, whether it'll take a little while to get AOT going. Cause you know, IOT has always got its own special set of problems. Um, but I assume that the Xamarin team at Microsoft has gone through a processor changes before on this platform.

Frank (01:08:15):
So that stuff I think will not be bad, still waiting for the awesome catalyst support. They're pretty, uh, they're pretty snappy on the, uh, the updates. So yeah, there's that they know how to abuse that compiler that can find what was one thing they got down. I'm not too worried there. Yeah. Yeah, no, I will say this though. Um, I've never actually, um, I guess I've never actually compiled for AOT for the Mac. So my stuff is already just normal stuff. I think, cause I ran into some issues with some library I was using or something. So it's like, Oh, it's a Mac. It doesn't matter actually. So there was that, um, it's so wonderful having the, you know, I forget it constantly. I'm using like my iOS rules of what I'm allowed to do and not allowed to do on the Mac. And I'm like, what am I doing?

Frank (01:09:04):
I have a full kit here. I should be code generating and real time, you know, the app should build itself with a neural network. You know, I have all the worlds options there, but now I still write in a very constrained way. And I think most of us do as mobile developers. It's just how we write our apps. I think it will be a, I think we're in an okay spot. I think we're going to survive this transition. I'm really curious to see what the, um, non programmer, what the public's perspective is going to be on this processor change. That's the one I'm actually a little more, uh, concerned about. Cause I think as devs, we can handle this, this isn't too big of a deal. Yeah. I think it should be just fine. I'm pretty excited for it. And again, just to see how it goes, I guess, more than anything.

Frank (01:09:53):
Um, yeah, I mean there's a pretty exciting set of announcements. I would say I was pretty pleased overall. I would say, what do you think I'm pleased in that? I don't think I technically have to do anything this summer. I didn't see anything that's going to break my apps or any radical design changes. Now the new Mac apps with the new iPad styling did look a little bit. I haven't decided if I like it or not, but it looks modern and you know how Apple has that nasty trick of making stuff look old really easily. And they just made my apps look old. No, no jerks. So I think I'm going to do like a little bit of UI work, but that's the easy, um, so I like that a lot of these were big kind of important changes, but nothing that's gonna break me and that's kind of my sweet spot. Like give me free stuff without hurting me. That's what I like. I'm a big fan of that. Yes. I am fascinated to see how my app locations look and feel and what I can do to update it. I, I, I, I am fascinated because I almost no shame to app kit, but I think maybe if I ended up building my applications

James (01:11:14):
With UI kit, they would look better since I don't know, app kit. Right. I think they might just look better on.

Frank (01:11:24):
Yeah. I mean, as an Android developer, you have a surprisingly vast knowledge of UI kits. I'm sure that's absolutely right. Yeah. So I think that that is a key and yeah, it's what I was saying before, too. It's so much easier to customize a UI and tune a UI than it is to write to you eyes. It's just, it's so much easier to customize than to have duplication and have to deal with. And if you don't want duplication, then all the architectural things you have to do, it's so easy to write an app against one UI interface. It's true. No matter what the interface is, you can make it look good. It's just how much time do you have making it look good? Why do you think I love xamarinforms, you know, it's like exactly. And you know, I can, at least

James (01:12:08):
It may take me a little bit longer to make things look pretty and that's with anything, but guess what? It's going to look pretty on all the platforms. Yeah,

Frank (01:12:15):
No, I mean, that's why it's successful. It's kind of an, it's a truism in software, but it's kind of obvious when you stated as one is easier than two. Well, of course one is easier than it's true.

James (01:12:26):
That's true. That's true. Oh, we made it through WWDC. Anything else? I mean, there's a bunch of other stuff. Yeah.

Frank (01:12:31):
I'm sure we miss course there's a million things, but we're, this might be one of our longer episodes. So we should probably cut it here and we'll be talking about this all summer. You know how it goes, everyone you've been through this drill before this is episode 208 billion or something like that.

James (01:12:47):
That's true. This is two Oh seven. We're going to replace to a seven. We'll come back with another source generators, um, podcasts in the future. And hopefully we'll also have Simon on to talk about Fody, that'd be pretty awesome. Talk about how the, how he came up with it, how it works under the hood. And um, maybe, maybe you could talk about source generators too, and how he sees that integrating with, with photos a little bit into the future. Um, I think that's it though. I think it's going to do it for this week's merge conflict. Thank you so much, Frank Kruger for being my partner on this WWDC adventure and to everybody that's kept with us for 207 plus episodes. Like I said, that's going to do it for this week. So until next time I'm James

Speaker 4 (01:13:30):
It's Magnum and I'm Frank Krueger. Thanks for listening.