mergeconflict396
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[00:00:00] James: Now, before we start this week's podcast, I want to do something special. We're trying something brand new for the year 2024. Yes, it's already February, but I don't know why we're waiting this long to let everyone know we're doing something special this year, which is we're not doing any sponsors at all.

Zero sponsors. Uh, we don't have any. We just don't, we haven't reached out. Uh, we're going to do no ads this year. Just none. I'm not going to insert any or do anything like that. And if you were watching this on YouTube, Frank's face just got like, Whoa, how am I going to survive because that this podcast is how I make my livelihood and how I pay for Starlink.

Well, let me tell you how you can support the podcast and independent. Independent app development of Frank Krueger. You can support us on Patreon. It is the only way that we are going to fund this podcast this year. Patreon. com forward slash merge conflict FM. We'll put a link in the show notes. You can get a, uh, Patron subscriber membership thingy for as little as 2.

Much as you want to give, we don't really care. It's fine. It's just any, anything would help us out to be honest with you. And we do special podcasts behind the scenes every week, every other week or so. Um, and we put those on the patrons. If you want to see more of us, you can go ahead and do that. Now how this works exactly, because you're probably asking how much money is Frank getting?

That's a great question. Well, how this works is we have a few different fees that we pay throughout the year. Podcast hosting fees, domain name, and that's pretty much it. Frank and Mai's time is included all up in there. We take the year of what we got on Patreon. We subtract those fees and we split it boom, right in half.

Even though I do all of the podcast editing. What a sweet, sweet deal for Frank Krueger. If you want to support the show and Frank Krueger. And his love for Starlink internet. The only way that this show is possible. Head over to patreon. com forward slash merge conflict FM. We appreciate all of you for listening.

And if you want to become a Patreon supporter now onto this week's show. Frank Krueger. Now, if you're watching on YouTube, let me tell you, everybody, Frank Krueger sitting here and I can see his eyes. But they're through glass and it's like, so it's like, it's like near perfect, like realistic. It is a wild, I don't know how he's listening to me right now, but I think he's out skiing on a ski slope.

I mean, it is uncanny it is if they didn't put the lowest resolution display on the front of the Apple vision pro. So everything's blurry. Franks, how's your Apple Vision Pro? Let's get the honest review. 

[00:02:26] Frank: Uh, as far as I know, I'm just going to go from everything MKBHD said. Um, and everything that I know he said is from the thumbnail because I didn't actually watch the video.

Uh, the front. Green is a wee bit bright. And yeah, you just said all the things about the, uh, podcast sponsorship, but you know, I just bought a Vision Pro, so you know, do the Patreon, everyone. Um, it, it's, it's, whatever. I don't plan on using it. I always thought the eyes on the outside was the creepiest part.

Is that what you're talking about? That low, low 

[00:03:02] James: screen. Okay. Yeah. Um, I, so we don't, we record this podcast a little bit early. So Frank is not wearing, don't run over, you can rush over to the, the, the YouTube, youtube. com forward slash at merge conflict FM. I think that's what it is. Uh, what, what is our youtube.

com forward slash at merge conflict FM. It's all merge conflict FM. Good. We kept it the same. Um. Where I've done really, I've done really lazy, um, thumbnails by the way. And our last video got like a thousand views and I, I titled the episode buying the Apple vision pro what clickbait and it's me going like this.

Cause it's just like, whatever, you know, I'll put a link at the Zencaster here. 

[00:03:43] Frank: It's all about your expression. So as long as you captured a good expression, yeah, that's what 

matters. 

[00:03:48] James: I think because I kick off the show, it's always like me up front. So we've got to have you kick off the show. So it's not just me.

Um, anyways, relief. Yeah. Yes. We record the podcast earlier in the week. Yeah. Today is Wednesday. Frank will get his on Friday ish. No.

[00:04:11] Frank: I live on an island, um, so I won't be getting mine until Monday or Tuesday, which is going to mean our show is either going to be late next week or we're going to have another week of us not talking about the Vision Pro that 

[00:04:23] James: I don't have. That could be. Um, now that being said, um, what have you watched?

Have you watched anything at all? No, 

[00:04:33] Frank: I want to, I want to go into this cold. You know, I've, I've had years. I have years of experience with VR. I have played all the games. So, um, I, I know what my expectations are and I, it's, you know, product reviews are great. I think product reviews on YouTube are fantastic.

I love to watch them. Um, you got me hooked on those stupid little devices that are like 30 or 50 that play every stolen video game on the planet every, anyway. Um, I, I love reviews on YouTube, but I don't want to be spoiled. I'm spending a lot of money here. Part of the joy is going to be me discovering, Oh, I like this.

I don't like that. I like this and I don't like that. And, um, you know, I'll be a little pompous as an app developer. Um, I want to go into it with an open mind, and see which parts are missing, because that's always a good place to write an app, is which features are Apple missing. Um, and I will have to watch a lot of reviews for that, because I want to mix my real opinion with theirs.

But I want the first few days of Surprise to be Surprise. 

[00:05:44] James: Yeah. I, since I'm not in here, so we did get some comments on last week's video. So thanks to everyone that tuned in with my clickbait here. We had, um, so, so, uh, Michael said I was planning on buying one, but all the secrecy and caution from Apple gave me pause.

I decided to wait to try one in the store. That makes sense. Yeah. Um, again, you live on an Island, so getting to the store is hard for you. Um, let's see. Coach Dan said, cool pot. I ordered the. The vision pro and can't wait. I was curious of your thoughts, um, from the lens of an app developer. Um, kind of, we did one previously, but sure.

Like really looking forward to the opportunity to multitask working, uh, mixing work and hobbies in addition to entertainment features. You want to, we can recap that a little bit. Honestly, it's been about a month of Apple Vision Pro and next week we'll actually review the Apple Vision Pro. So this is there, but I will say this from an app developer standpoint.

I had some conversations with some of my old colleagues today that are developing actively, uh, for the Apple Vision Pro and they have an app in the app store, La Terminal, uh, if you've heard of it, um, there should be a 

[00:06:53] Frank: bell, the bell, the, 

[00:06:54] James: yeah, the Miguel bell. Uh, and I talked to, I talked to some of my, some of my pals and, you know, I think the hardest part is that they just don't have one that the simulator has been one of the biggest issues to go through.

However, you know, I think from what we've talked about previously with being their day one versus not being day their day one, you have a little wiggle room. Uh, but. I do think that it's kind of is complimentary and it probably is going to be really good press to be there early on. So, for example, as Frank is probably actively rewriting iCircuit 3D in Reality Kit or whatever he has to do to get that up and running, it's probably, if it does well on the Vision Pro, even if that's A hundred units, thousand units.

I don't know, what's good yet. There's only so many units, I bet. It's actually really good publicity for your app on the iPad or on the iPhone, because just, you know, people will Google that and Bing it and it'll come up. So that's really cool. I dunno. I think the hard part for me as an app developer besides.

Cool. Maybe, um, promotion of the app and being there. Day one is to me while I was a game developer. I wouldn't say I was super good at like the three dimensional part of the game development stuff. Like we did a top down space shooter. So it was top down and that Z access is really hard. And I did a lot of shaders and that was pretty tricky as well.

Most of the stuff I've done is 2d, which is why I really like mobile app development. But that being said of the apps that I've seen in the reviews and in the previews, I think I'm actually more excited as an app developer now, even though I'm less excited as a consumer personally, because a lot of the apps that are there that are the Apple apps are basically just apps.

Custom tailored towards the experience. So for example, the navigation or the dragging and dropping. So that's kind of my perspective now having more thoughts and things there. Yeah. 

[00:08:51] Frank: Yeah. Um, uh, yep. Agree with all that. Um, I think the. Biggest trick, and this is why I'm avoiding reviews also because I don't want this to be spoiled because I hope I'm right and maybe I'm wrong.

I think the biggest part of this device is the spatial computing part where you're hopefully going to have some apps Some apps pasted to this wall, some apps pasted to that wall, some apps in this room and some apps in that room. And so I'll go to my weather station room, ideally it would be nice, and get all my weather apps in my weather station room.

And I think it's pretty good that the device is going to run iOS apps out of the gate. We'll see how well, but I think it'll be pretty nice that I'll be able to take my favorite iOS apps and at least put those into the 3D spatial world. And so from the app developer perspective, that's number one. I'm just curious how my 2D apps look in this 3D world, you know, let alone developing for the device itself.

Developing for the device, yeah, that's simulator. It's been rough. You get the general idea of how you can program for it, but it's. You hope the device is going to be a little more performant than the simulator, too, and you can't tell, like, is the simulator actually matching the performance? Is it faster than the device?

Is it slower than the device? You know, things like that you don't have a feel for. Um, you, it's, there are features in the SDK that the simulator just doesn't support. The, the interesting AR features where it actually scans the room and can give you a mesh of the room so that you know what objects are in it.

And you can interact with the room in a more AR y kind of way. None of that works in the simulator. So anyone who has an app out that releases an app on day one, they were lucky and they got the test on a real device, because there's no way you can develop an app that uses those APIs without actually having the hardware device there.

Um, I think those are some of the trickiest ones to get through. That's enough lapping for now. We'll, we'll, we'll get back to my concerns over app development though. 

[00:11:08] James: Yeah. I mean, I think in general where I'm at currently is, well, I'm happy that I decided not to buy one this year and I'm going to hold off on all V1 unless next week, Frank is like, this is the most amazing thing in the world, which I don't think he will based on the reviews that I saw.

And the reviews weren't bad either, 

by 

[00:11:28] Frank: the way. Burn! Just so you don't spoil. No spoilers. 

[00:11:31] James: They weren't bad. They weren't bad. Um, there's some cool things, but again, I think that there's some things. It's, it's early adopter phase, right? So what this has me excited for. Is potentially the next version of it, if that makes sense.

Right. I can predict in 2025, there'll be an Apple vision pro and an Apple vision. Right. There'll be like the, there'll be the exact same specs as the Apple vision pro, probably in a plastic case. Maybe they'll figure out the battery thing and maybe it'll be 2000 bucks. Right. Then there'll be an Apple vision pro and it'd be the same price or maybe even more expensive.

It'd be like the, the, the metal one custom tailored. Right. But they got to get it out there because they got to get the app developers. So like this first year is actually pretty. Crucial, because you're going to get a bunch of consumers. Not as many as like, you're going to get a lot, right. But you're going to get as many as they sell.

Let's say half a million. Okay. Um, because I think the estimates were like 250 early on. I think they already sold 200. So like people are saying 600, 000 this year, but let's say half a million. But if we're looking at this time next year and they announce. Revision of the hardware. And we know Apple loves hardware every year, especially on their iPads or iPhones and watches.

Right. We'll see how fast it is. Maybe it'd be later in the year. That means that if there is more mass adoption and your app is bubbling up and it's a good app, then you, you know, you're going to stay on top for a while as more app developers come on board and adopt this technology. So I think that's it.

Yeah. 

[00:12:58] Frank: Yeah, um, yep, uh, it's, it's funny because when the M series processors were coming out, they made a really cheap computer for developers to buy. And this feels like a very expensive device for developers to buy to see if we can come up with something interesting to do with it. But you're absolutely right.

Like, um, 3D is harder than 2D. Maybe that sounds obvious, but like, I love 3D. I am perfectly comfortable with all the most 3D math. I've been putting spheres and cubes on the screen since I was a wee lad, you know. I love 3D, no problem. But in trying to build 3D apps, I'm like, you know It's almost like, um, the more options you have, the harder something becomes.

I'll fully admit, I kind of love the Mac OS 9, Windows 95 aesthetic of text boxes and buttons, and they're all a little bit pixelated, and then there's a few rectangles, maybe a few borders, and then more buttons and text boxes. I love the simplicity of those late 90s. User interfaces, those 2D UIs. I love them.

Love them, love them, love them. And part of that feeds into my love of native UIs today. I just always want my apps to kind of look like the native operating system. Now, you can still do that on Vision. You can build a basically a 2D app. Um, using all my favorite controls, text boxes and buttons and things like that.

But then, they're really trying to push you. You can create a 3D experience with 3D objects that are interactive. And at that point, they completely throw their hands up in the air. There is no 3D Text box, even though that one doesn't make any sense, but there is no like 3d button. Um, there you can put a cube on the screen and you can put a tap gesture on it, but there's no design language at all for the 3d 

[00:15:04] James: world.

You know, I think that would have been smart and I'm not sure if this is how they did it or not. Cause I haven't, you know, I haven't tried it out and you can tell me, but I feel as though what would have been advantageous is. Giving default UI kit controls a vision pro style. Uh, I don't know if you see that in the simulator, but like give it depth.

Right. For example, a button on, on, on UI kit out of the jump is. It's come 100 percent transparent with just text. It's not even a button, actually. That is clickable text, Apple. It's not even a button. Don't try to fool us. We all stylize our button, you know, and they might say it's a blank canvas. You can do whatever you want.

But my hope would be if I lay down a UI button on. You know, UI kit inside of vision pro that it actually is depth, right? Cause you want to see the depth and the layers. Like that's the thing in there is there's 3d development. And then there is, I'm putting up quotes here, 3d development where the.

Platform is doing the hard work of laying down those components for you to give the feel and depth of the Z axis, right? And a good example of that is, I could envision, I could envision, uh, you know, if I'm making a movie app, I have like the wallpaper and then I have the buttons, but the buttons by default have some depth to it.

They're more highly visible. The touch area is a little bit bigger. I can click on it and when I click on it, all the built in animations and touch events are all done for me. One of the best things that Android ever did was the ripple effect. It's my favorite effect of all effects because you interact with Android devices and iOS devices all the time.

And you want some sort of indicator of verifying with your eye that that's things are happening. So the ripple effect is just such a good effect and you can use it and program it as well. But the default button has some depth, has some ripple. And I would love to see that inside of, uh, Vision Pro applications.

And to the point where if I'm up there and I'm going and I'm looking that those things are happening automatically, it looks like that is happening automatically. But that being said, all of the reviews that I've seen, they're only demoing. Either vision OS apps from Apple out of the, out of the box, or they are showing Mac apps, which is just Mac then.

Right. It's so, so I'd expect it to be different. So my expectation would be like, okay, like, what if I do have a UI kit app or something like that? Like, what does that look like? You know, there, uh, so I don't, I don't know what the default behavior is. Right. And I don't know, maybe you can tell me like, if you just do a vision OS app, it's like, is there depth?

Is there, is there. Uh, Fluidity is their, the, the transparency and they were showing like, you know, um, the Apple TV app and all the boxes that would reflect the reflect downwards, like on your table. And I'm like, is that free? You know what I mean? Cause that's hard stuff to do if I want to make a great experience.

[00:18:24] Frank: Uh, some of that was free. I was like, it's all free up until you said that reflection. That's not free. You got to program that one. Okay. Um, a lot to unpack there. We'll just keep this as 3D UIs are harder than 2D UIs. But out of the box experience, if you do File, New, Project, and Xcode for a Vision Pro app, you are basically going to be given the 2D world of SwiftUI.

They want you to do everything in SwiftUI, which is great. It's fine. Um, but it's a 2D world. Your app. Just like an iOS app on this device is put into a little 2D rectangle. That 2D rectangle can be moved around in the world. I like to think of it as like a board, or a desk, or a piece of paper ideally at some point.

You'd be able to like stack apps, but I don't think the UI is that good yet. Um, but like, there's a lot of advantage to having a 2D representation. In the 3D world, you know, it's, it's good for space. You know, everything needs to be like a giant car shape thing. Uh, but their, their, their default experience is.

A 2D app with a sphere in the middle. And the sphere in the middle is supposed to be the trigger to you as a creative app developer to be like, you can put 3D content in here. What kind of 3D content? We don't know. We didn't think about it that hard. So where, where I get a little bit frustrated, um, again, there is a lack of a design language in the 3D world.

In the 2D world, Everything that you asked for is there. The beautiful translucency, all that stuff. Uh, the buttons have a nice 3D shape. They're not really that 3D because like, how, how big do you want a button to actually be? Do you want it to be a half meter by 10 centimeters? And when you clunk it in, should it move eight centimeters?

You know, there's, we're going to really have to play with what mixtures of the real world do you want in the virtual world? Things like that. But again, there, there's still not a design language about the 3D world. I think the real, um, pardon my language, but the real damning evidence here is in Xcode itself.

Whereas when you built apps for AppKit or UIKit before, you would draw up your pretty scene in a storyboard or an interface builder, you would put some buttons and some text boxes, but what are those? Buttons and text boxes do, they got to communicate with each other. So when you double click on a button, you create an event handler.

This happens in Visual Studio and WinForms. This is how you build UIs. You double click the button and an event handler happens. And then you can write some code for things to do with that button click event handler. So Apple went through all the trouble to build a beautiful. 3D scene creating app, um, Reality Composer Pro and they're pushing it.

Every file, new project comes with a Reality Composer Pro project baked into it. They're really saying build UIs in this thing. 

[00:21:38] James: Hey, if you're going to go all in. Go all in, just saying. 

[00:21:43] Frank: It's basically just a crappy game engine. Oh, I'm sorry. It's not a game engine. It's, it's, um, it's a 3d model or it's a bad 3d model.

And here's, here's where I'm drawing the distinction back to my clicking on a button, there is no way to double click on an object and, or at least. I haven't discovered it. It's not as tight as an Xcode. And create an event handler. What happens when someone taps on this thing? Like, at least in a game engine, you would have all the triggers and everything that can happen on 3D objects.

That interactivity is missing there. And I say it's damning just because it's, it's really hard to build a game editor. I get it. But like, the fundamental thing of a user interface It's action and reaction. The user takes an action, you display something. The user takes an action and you display something.

And lacking that user interaction part is really frustrating to 

[00:22:35] James: me. And it's hard too, because you know, the interactions that are happening inside of the Vision Pro expectation is really that Apple is. Is lifting these heavy, you know, mechanics because there's multiple ways of do it, right? Like you could actually hook up a mouse and keyboard.

You can touch physically with your finger or ideally your, what they recommend is you look with your eyeball, the visual element lights up and then you clickety click with your finger. So. The navigation wise, the expectation is like, are you supposed to build all that? Are the elements going to do it itself?

Like how representative are, what are the design guidelines are? I think the challenge in this space, right? It's the same challenge that game to your point, like game, the problem that game developers have, I was a game developer and vision pro developers are going to have is the issue of. Infinite space and infinite depth.

When we are developing for a client device, a desktop, a laptop, a phone, a tablet, a watch, an, uh, you know, an IOT, Raspberry PI, whatever we are confined. By the, the, the visible space and real estate. And we are guided by design principles that give us best practices on how our users interact with it, right.

By mouse and keyboard with their finger, with the, the scroll wheel, right. And we're given UI elements that enable us to create great experiences for that. The problem in the game developer space. And one of the problems at least that as a game developer is that infinite space, right? You literally have to in a game create boundaries so your users can't go out of those boundaries, right?

Like when I'm building an iPhone app, I don't got to worry about if the user, the user can't get over to X, Y, 5 billion, 10 billion, right? That's what you see all these videos. It's like I took. You know, I took link and I soared on a thing and I flew and now I'm under the map, right? Like you don't have to worry about that as an app developer.

However, in the visual space of a vision pro with infinite space around you, where you can craft these experiences that are three dimensional and 360 around you, and your app can go anywhere and be any size and do anything. Those things multiply in the complexity. Of what maybe could go wrong in your application or could go right based on how you develop it in general.

And that's a challenge. 

[00:25:19] Frank: Yeah, it totally is. Here's the simplest example. I love to write map apps as my first app. So what's one of the first apps I write for the Vision Pro? It's a map. And how do you do a map in 3D? Well, the only way I know how to do it is you do a big surface table. And you put the map on the table.

And then you can walk around the table and you can look at the map. That seems like the right way to look at a map. Yeah. To me, for an app. Uh, but it's weird. Uh, all I want is a table on the ground. But I'm like, all right, do I have to write the code where the user chooses where to put the table? Or is that built into the OS?

It's a little iffy. You can request anchor points. You can say, I want to anchor to the floor. And you can say how big you are. But it's not giving the user a lot of control. It's basically the OS is going to decide where to put that object. That's one option. Another option is, I can put the object inside my window.

And that's great. If my window is here, my object is there, uh, I can interact with my object. But then there's a very easy gesture to move a window. Uh, you know, I'm calling it a window. I'm sorry. What else are we going to call these things? It's kind of a window. 

[00:26:37] James: It's a window. It's a window. Yeah. And that's, and that's kind of actually fascinating too, because you think when you're developing or when I see the apps, you're like, well, it's, it's the whole space is the app right now.

Well, there is actually a window and now you can. Create a scene that breaks through it. However, it's not like your app is really wrapping around from what I've seen. I haven't seen something that's like fully, you know, doing something. They mostly look like windowed apps. Yeah. 

[00:27:07] Frank: Yeah. I mean, it's an operating system and so its job is to manage multiple applications running that, that's its job.

And so we're gonna see how good that experience is between going between what they call the immersive experience and the, the windows experience of windows around the room. It's still unclear to me, uh, if you have many apps running, can I have like 20 apps running throughout my house? Yeah. Or is it gonna be like iOS and limit me to one app?

And that would be terrible. You know, things like that. Anyway, so, uh, back to this, uh, I've put this big map down, okay? It's like a couple meters wide, a meter, half a meter, uh, across. But then you can just take your finger and flick it across the room. And that, to me, is the most disorienting thing on the planet is taking this large object table sized, the object and just flicking it across the room.

Like, if you want to break the illusion, that's how you're going to do it. And so you really have this debate, do I want the immersive experience? I'm worried that everyone else's windows are going to go away, or where you can put yourself in a window, but then you Break the physicality of the device? Like, I don't, and I don't even know how much that matters yet without having the device.

Like, before it was, I've had Oculus Rifts, it has a crappy little OS, and it runs games. That's, that was the world. Now with Vision OS, the OS is way more important. The Because it's really going to be the orchestration of many apps together, which is going to be the real 

[00:28:48] James: to get right. Yeah. I feel like my challenge with a vision OS when it comes to development and when it comes to what I've seen is has Apple are actually articulated to us how they expect users to use this device.

And does that match our realistic expectations as developers? To your point, you're like, Hey. It would be great if I have a virtual table, I put down a map, I walk, zoom around, look at it, put my face closer to the map, X, Y, Z. However, which would make sense because that's how traditional VR headsets have worked.

Like when I was playing with the Oculus or playing with, uh, the HTC Vive, we were in a big room like this and it was just kind of open and, you know, was there. And now obviously. In those experiences, those weren't augmented reality in this experience, right? People are there. And some of the videos I've seen, you know, when people are wearing the vision pro, they're like, I'm able to do normal things.

MKBHD is like, I could play, I could play table tennis. Um, there was someone that was cooking, not recommended by the way, in the, in the recipe app, but you could cook, uh, you could do stuff. You could walk around the house. That's the idea of it. That being said, I've seen very little. Of people using apps while not seeded, just in general, I would say 99, 98 percent of the time I see people, you know, except for the one cooking video that I saw someone cooking, it's like where they're cooking and pinning the apps, which seems very dangerous, but like totally fine.

Um, most of the time when they're. Working or they're watching a video or they're doing stuff. You know, I watched the Neil, I watch the entire Neil, Neil, Apatow video and like think that I saw one area where. Neil, I was. You know, walking around and doing a lot of stuff, kind of like you're saying in an app experience that's there.

When I look at, remember some of the Oculus and some of the HoloLens stuff, it was like, you know, Hey, here's the, the, the skeleton of a person. You're going to be able to inspect it. You're walking around at three dimensions, you know, right? Like I haven't seen that, to be honest with you, like they're like, Oh, well you have this interactive Rihanna.

Um. I think it was Rihanna, um, um, concert where Rihanna is in your face doing stuff. But like, you know, you're not like moshing in the mosh pit, like to a concert, right. Or like looking at the dinosaurs, the dinosaurs are coming to you. You're not going to the dinosaur, right. Um, in, in this experience. So I am fascinated if that will evolve, if it really.

Is good for those types of experiences. And if people start trying it out, like you're saying, and you're like, well, actually there's a limitation of the expectation of how Apple designed users to use this device. And I don't know. Yeah, 

[00:31:50] Frank: uh, you distracted me a little there with Rihanna. I, I had an interesting point to make, but, uh, it, it totally went out the window, uh, as they do.

Uh, you know, it, it, it, we all just have to wait and see. It's either or. We all have to wait and see. And I hate to say that because I could be watching the reviews and maybe getting a better idea of what people want to do, but, um, the couple of things that you mentioned, you need a real time video feed. To do that kind of stuff.

And Apple's not providing that to app developers. And so you won't have features like that. Um, I think a lot of the reasons you don't have get up and move around type of interactive apps right now is because Apple's apps are a little bit boring. And I'm hoping the next year is going to be a bunch of app developers throwing a lot of at the fan and just seeing like what's actually interesting and what's fun to do in this world.

And you did say sitting down is going to be a big feature, but of course sitting down is going to be a big feature. Like, um, this thing has to be good when you're sitting down. I think it's real goal in the world is to replace monitors. Like instead of having this stupid 30 inch. I think that's going to be a very valid use case for it.

And this device definitely won't be that good. Um, so no, but, um, in 10, 20 years, yeah, probably. Who, who needs, who needs screens? Just put on some goggles and then you'll, you'll have infinite screens, ideally. 

[00:33:37] James: Yeah, I think it, you know, I think that there is what I'm hoping is what you kind of mentioned earlier is like, do I have a yoga room?

Do I have a work room? Do I have a game room? Like in the house? Like I've basically customized the rooms in the house and the Apple vision pro. No, it was obviously with spatial anchors, which I hear it's really good at, um, keeps those there, right. So as I'm going around or wherever I'm at, it keeps my, my, my spatial anchors.

And I'm able to kind of create this environment for myself, for my work environment, for my work on an environment, yoga, environment, whatever it's at, based on where you're at. So I think that could be really neat. Um In general. So we'll be interested to see how that shakes out. And I'll be interested to see, you know, how you like it in general, to be honest with you and how you start to, to, uh, to, to play with it.

I mean, we have a few other comments that are fascinating. Um, so, uh, snooze over here says, uh, that they're getting one as a designer. That's kind of cool. They're curious about what can and can't be built, um, but don't have enough early adopter friends to talk to. So I think there might be a. Inner circle.

[00:34:48] Frank: Let's build a community. Everyone, there's going to be so few of us in the beginning. It's going to be a fun little community to have together. Uh, let's make a place 

[00:34:57] James: to hang out. Jay Alex said, uh, they're getting in one terabyte AVP. Apple Vision Pro. With the Zeiss inserts and they'll be delivered on 2. 2.

Said, Frank, I'd be delighted to help where I can with your app development for testing. Please let them know. Awesome. Which is great. So yeah, so kind of cool. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm glad to see that we have some listeners of the show, some viewers of the show, uh, getting one because that's a, that's a nice, the nice thing about.

Development where it's at today for like iOS or Android. It's like, you know, people that have one, it's easy to get, but if it's just you, you also want testers and people to hang out with, like they were doing a FaceTime call. This is the most hilarious part. Um, I'll just spoil this aspect for you. Okay. So they have this thing called personas.

You've seen the personas, which is, they, they map your face, right? And they give you a 3d avatar. Let's just say, I mean, not bad as like some of the early, like that Zuckerberg, uh, 3d avatar thing, but. Let's just say. Do you have legs? No legs? No, it's just as it, it's just as much as like we're on the podcast and it's all like blurry.

So like everything's blurry around you. So it's like, um, it's pretty, they say it's a beta. So, and it's pretty. It's, it's not the worst, but it's, it's pretty not great as hard. 

[00:36:36] Frank: That's fine. Honestly, I don't like Apple's really promoting the communication features of it. Have you ever heard the story of the original Sony Walkman?

Um, the designer of it was really afraid that it was going to become an isolating device because everyone would put headphones on and then we wouldn't talk to each other anymore. It'd be a terrible world. And so the original Sony Walkman's two headphone ports. On it. So every Sony Walkman, you could have two people listening in.

And so I feel like it's almost like Apple's repeating that with all these pushes for FaceTime and SharePlay and all these communication apps, because, you know, putting goggles over your eyes is an, from an objective reality point of view, is an isolating activity. You are covering your eyes to the world.

Now, in this case, it's augmented reality. Hopefully you're going to have Digitalize doing all the work for you, but, um, my idea still stands. It's an isolating event. And so they need to promote communication and talking to each other and socialization. 

[00:37:42] James: Yeah, we shall see. And that was one of the things I was, uh, chatting with my buddies and I was talking through that exact same thing.

I was like, you know, could, can Heather even put on. Um, if I got the Apple vision pro, maybe it depends. We talked about the light leakage. I got, I don't know, would it be a great experience? Would it not be an XYZ because it's custom for per person. And then I was like, you know, what's the experience like if we're sitting together on the couch?

Like, is that a good experience? Is that a creepy experience? Like, you know, I don't know. Um, I won't know cause I won't have one, but when you bring it over and we play around with it, we will, uh, it does seem as though the front display. Does sometimes display your eyes and then other stuff as well. So it's kind of funky.

Creepy. I am a little disappointed though that I thought that the audio coming out was going to be bone induction. 

[00:38:35] Frank: Oh, okay. 

[00:38:37] James: It is not. It is speakers and they are firing down at your ears, which doesn't matter if you're the only person in the house. However, if you were sitting like one of my visions would be, I could be sitting there playing a game or watching a movie while Heather's watching her show.

Right. And then I could easily pause, break in, and then have a conversation or do something instead of just me sitting in front in separate rooms today. Right. I don't know if that's a great experience, but that'd be kind of cool. Unrealistic because Heather could hear whatever I'm doing probably faintly, but it's there they're like, it's audible, but they're like, but if you want, oh, you just plug in Bluetooth headphones, right?

You just like get some hats. It was like, now the problem though, is that. If you do a Bluetooth headphones, which seems weird, you won't get spatial audio unless you have the Apple headphones. And those are the only, which are huge. I can't even imagine wearing the Apple headphones and the Apple Vision Pro.

You look ridiculous. I don't think, I don't think the spatial works with the earbuds. I don't know. Maybe it does, but I think they were saying with the full headphones, which would be just wild to me. So, um, Okay. I'm 

[00:39:49] Frank: doubling down on this being an isolating device then. Um, because yeah, this sounds like two people in a room together just won't get along.

At first you saying they don't have them. Induction conduction headphones. I was like, come on, but you, you make a good point. It's super annoying when someone has loud headphones on in the same room. You're like, okay, you're in your VR world and I can hear your music. Stop it. Like, go to another room. Get out of this room.

Yeah. Play your video games in another room. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So maybe that bone. What is it? Bone induction? Conduction? What is the technology called? I remember it was really popular like five, six years ago. Is it still a thing? 

[00:40:32] James: Yeah. Does it work? Okay. I think it does work. I think it does work. Bone. I think bone.

Bone induction. Bone conduction. You're right. Conduction. Okay. Bone conduction headphones. I hear they're pretty good. I don't know. I don't have them, but I hear they're pretty good. What would induction be? Headphones that go in your, like, they're drilled into your ears, like permanent 

[00:41:01] Frank: induction. I don't know.

Like they, they vibrate some other part of your body to get your ears to sound one way. Like you put the vibrator on your foot. That'd be kind of 

[00:41:07] James: hilarious. Interesting. Probably what that's going to do for the knees. That's going to do it. Let's just wrap. We podcast, Frank. No one cares cause we don't even have a vision pro and all we've done for the last month to talk about vision pro, uh, tune back next week when we talk about the Apple vision pro and how Frank likes it, if he gets it and if it works, if he could turn it on and if the batteries lasted more than 30 minutes, we'll see, um, We'll give you a full breakdown.

All the reviews have already been out, but we'll give you the app developer perspective. What is it like provisioning your device? What is it like plugging it in? Even though there's no plugs to plug it into, we don't know, but Frank's going to figure it all for us. So tune back in next week and hit that subscribe button, wherever you're at on the YouTubes, on the Apple podcast app, on Stitcher, on Overcast.

Who knows where you're at. Just jam on the subscriber and send this podcast to a friend. We super appreciate it. It's worth the pod. That's gonna do it for this week's podcast. So until next week, I'm James Montemagno. 

[00:42:07] Frank: And I'm Frank Krueger. Thanks for watching and listening. 

[00:42:11] James: Peace.