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Frank: [00:00:00] well, James, you know, there's a new version of windows on the block and rumor is, it has rounded corners. 
James: [00:00:17] Yes. The rounded corners are finally here on every single application, including no pad, Frank, no pad. It has it. I'm excited. 
Frank: [00:00:26] They actually look good. I was nervous. Like windows never changes it's Chrome or I guess, I mean it does between all the different major versions, but they're usually very careful about it because windows apps can be a little bit ancient if I'm polite and it's tricky, changing the Chrome of a thing, but.
James, they did it. They rounded the corners. It's a little controversial. I heard from some windows developers, if I can. No, no, I need my square corners. So how do you feel about it as a windows? 
James: [00:00:56] I mean, I mean, come on now. I mean, let me just say when, when apple did the. Big Sur refresh. I thought it was all very positive.
I thought that they brought together a polished experience from start to finish of the operating system and we'll get hands on with windows 11, the insider preview later. But I do believe that Microsoft, which is the company I work for in which all of opinions are myself and not of Microsoft. Let's make that very clear.
I work for Microsoft. These are opinions on myself. I believe that so far, the windows team. Has really delivered on a very cohesive experience from start to finish in at least the built in applications. And it feels really nice. The rounded corners when there is an app that doesn't support them. It actually kind of makes me sad cause I like them so much.
And only because that default experience where everything right, you launched the windows thing and pantos kind of showed this off. If you launch the Microsoft store photos, settings news. Edge, any other, almost every other application supports it out of the box. And it's not only just the apps. It's the widgets, it's the start menu.
It's a search menu. It's, it's, it's kind of entire experience that are built in to the fact that even in the, the Microsoft store, when you're on a tab that the highlighted parts of the tab have, um, these rounded corners and the little cards have rounded corners. And it all makes sense. Frank rounded corners.
I liked them when I liked him. Uh, when, when Google introduced and materials, I was a big fan of the card view, still a big fan of the card view. And, uh, I I'm really, I'm enjoying it here. We're on windows 11 so far. And I thought that the keynote Frank beyond the rounded corners reveal was spectacular killer.
I, you know, some people we've talked about it with dub dub. Some people like high production value and some people don't. 2021 the year that I love high production videos, blown away. I loved it. I just. I just love the panels and the floating machines and the beautiful green. It was very Johnny Ives in a way.
It was like, you know, an apple used to, and they still do, right. Like when the, the, the hardware is coming out of the, the water and it's like dripping, and it's just amazing. And they kind of did that reveal on the windows UI, and I thought it was great. I enjoyed it. Uh, pantos speech. I've enjoyed Satya speech at the end.
Um, talking about, um, windows and impact. And also I thought it was, it was nice to have a full end to end story. There was a lot of great integrations that we'll talk about that I thought just really, really were impressive. And that was only one of the two events like we talked about last week that occurred, um, uh, for windows developer developers and for windows 11 itself.
So Dow I love it. I'm in, I'm all in. 
Frank: [00:03:56] Yeah, I actually don't have too much to add to that are then they did a good job. It was off format. I was like, is this some Microsoft video? Like what, what is this exactly? Um, because it was, um, clean, that's such a weird adjective to use. What does that mean? But they did a great production value.
Um, they got to the point there wasn't too much business speak too much to her getting to make your way through. And then. To show off. I think that always helps when you have a good product to show off, it's just, it makes the whole presentation better. And the product happens to have a gorgeous new glass transparency look to it.
So of course, you're going to make your video gorgeous to match the product. It makes sense, and it was good to see them. Uh, promoting windows the way it deserves to be promoted. I think I was a tiny bit put off at build that there wasn't enough windows content, but now I see why they've been holding back on windows 11.
So whatever timing and all that, but windows events are always a big deal. I mean, I was alive tons of life. I was, um, nerding on computers in 1995 when windows 95 came out. And that was such a huge deal. I mean, you talk about graphical updates. That was a 16 bit to 32. That was a 24 bit color over like 16 color that we had before.
It was that kind of thing. I'm not going to say windows 11, is that over windows 10, but, um, windows does deserve these good refreshes from time to time. And I, I get excited for them. I'm not a windows user. Everyone knows that, but at the same time, I love Microsoft windows will always have a little place in my heart, even though I don't use it every day, but I'm going to also talk about how I rushed out to get this thing installed.
Just because I'm always here for new stuff. Yeah. 
James: [00:05:43] The, uh, I was using the word free. It seems very fresh. Uh, yeah. And, and I like this, they talked about a lot about like cutting through the complexity to bring simplicity, uh, which is, which is a good marketing jargon, but I like it. There's a lot of things that are much more organized from start to finish and especially like in and out of.
Settings and menus, and even the finder experience, it's the small things that you use every day. Like I do use the browser every day, but at the same time, I'm always searching for things and I'm always inside a file browsers. And I want those to be like a similar experience, um, that has been thought about.
With a lot of thought thought about with a lot of foul, if you will. Good thinking. 
Frank: [00:06:30] Um, we, the finder, I think is one of the best examples because the whole simplicity thing I find her was always pretty good. I always liked the windows finder. It was fine. Um, but I didn't like it when they added the ribbon to be a hundred million percent honest.
Um, I thought. There is this thing that's actually pretty simple and they made it look really complicated. And I thought it was just a little bit of overkill. So one of the simplifications they did is the finder tool bar is like five or six distinct icons that are like the operations. Rename delete, copy paste.
There. The things that you actually do in finder, I was a little put off@firstbecausetheydidanapplethinganddida.dot.menu. No matter how why'd you make the finder window. And I should say, I'm talking about a preview right now. It's all this can change, but, uh, you, no matter how wide you make the window, there was still a dot, dot dot.
And I hate, I hate hamburger menus and all farms, but the things they hid under it, I'm like, yeah. Really use those fine. Like they put properties under it. I do use properties from time to time, but I get why that one got put in the dot, dot, dot menu in the name of, uh, cleanliness and simplicity and going back to basics 
James: [00:07:51] because if you use properties, you right.
Click and go to properties usually. So 
Frank: [00:07:55] I know, but the back has turned me into a left clicker. 
James: [00:07:58] Oh, I see. Gotcha. Yeah. You know, I, um, I walked through a lot of this and. And through the keynote, I enjoyed that cohesion that they put on it. And I think you're, you're talking about that a little bit with the new, new icons and new bars and new placements, because those icons.
Are the same everywhere in the UI, like inside of settings, inside of other areas, the properties, the options, the cutting, the new it's very cohesive and that, and that's why to me, it felt fresh. Th th from the videos, but I think that they broke it down into, you know, not only the, the new look and feel, which I think we'll get into even more, uh, with the task bar, the star bar, um, didn't even go into settings, but settings we'll talk about in depth later because it was glorious.
They talked about gamings and new HDR, seven all whole bunch of new stuff too in the new store. But I think they also talked about heavily that the Microsoft store there's two things. One is there. I'm excited. Well, which one is the biggest news for you? So let me, let, let me, let me, have you talk about what you think are the biggest things with the Microsoft?
Frank: [00:09:13] Okay. I think I know which two you're talking about. So I'm just going to start with the one I'm most interested in. Uh, it sounds like they're going to streamline the ability to put apps up there that aren't necessarily UWP apps. So from its earliest days, the store only allowed EWP apps. Some years ago, they did start to allow non UWP apps and we've had episodes at least one episode discussing that because that's how I released.
Kalka. It's a little bit of a hacky process. You have to apply for it. You have to do some email things. You have to use this weird packaging thing. And it sounds like they are going to add first party support to first, probably whatever that means in this context. Uh, they're going to make it easier to sell your apps on the Microsoft store.
E, no matter how you wrote them. So I'm imagining there's just going to be a variety of packaging tools for whatever kind of system you want to do. This is good news because we we've discussed this a million times. I don't really want to run my own store. It's just not what I'm interested in. I want someone else to deal with all the commerce as Microsoft calls it to keep term.
Uh, so I want, I want them to deal with the commerce and I like the flexibility. Of being able to publish any kind of app that I want. This is especially important in the.net world, excuse me, where we're adopting. Like when you  and things like that, where our apps could be tapping into pretty much any UI framework, because there's a million UI frameworks on windows at this point, and it's hard to keep things so siloed.
So from an app developer perspective, I'm super excited, right? Uh, they're getting rid of some of that siloing. I do have a question and I, I don't know how much you're allowed to talk, but, um, it's a tricky one. I wonder if this new openness will also apply to windows 10, that would be great because, um, uh, you know, th there's going to be an update rate for windows 11.
It'd be nice to be able to support people on windows 
James: [00:11:14] 10. Yeah, I'm, I'm not sure at all, to be honest with you. I have tested my, uh, my stream timer. And actually, if you, when you get the new store, like when you, when you, when you do get windows 11, it has the old store. And then it updates to the, when the Microsoft store preview, the, the pages are beautiful.
And the, my stream timer pages is gorgeous too. And that app is worse out of the box rounded corners at all. And that's just a traditional UWP app. And that was a, a WPF app. Uh, Donna core that I did the MSX bundling and whatnot in aha. But then I changed it to UWP just for simplicity. And now I'm, I'm glad, like you were saying that anything's going to work.
They say in the blog, if you built it in when 32, a PWA UWP, or any other app framework, you can put it in there. And the thing that you didn't mention is that now, um, Microsoft's only going to take a 85, 15% cut. Of revenue share, or you can bring your own commerce platform like Stripe, if you wanted to, and you keep a hundred percent of revenue, right?
So that 
Frank: [00:12:19] one that was fired. Gosh, I'd hate to work in Silicon valley right now. It's a little weird because a lot of this stuff is Dunning. Supposedly for my benefit and all app developers benefits out there, but I'm in that weird camp where I'm not big enough that I want to run my own comment commerce store, but if you're doing it anything with subscriptions, uh, I could definitely see why you would want to do this.
If you're managing your own digital rights and things like that, I totally get why you would want to run your own commerce. For me, that's personally just not the kind of apps that I write. So this doesn't affect me so much. But yeah, like you said, shots fired apple. Um, yeah. W we'll see if apple has response to this.
It's sounding like no so far, but, um, yeah, I don't know. Are you going to add co Stripe too? 
James: [00:13:16] No, I I'll use the built-in built-in stuff and it'll work great just as it always has with the platform. However, I do believe that this will enable different types of scenarios and different types of applications that want to want to do their own thing.
And the Stripe STK is beautiful. Have you ever looked at the dot, even the.net STK? It's absolutely gorgeous. So if you did need to do it, it's not that hard, but there are many, many enterprises. Have their own systems in place because they sell stuff on the web and I don't sell stuff on the web, so it doesn't matter too much to me.
Uh, so there's that part of it. Uh, and I think that was really neat. You know, we'll talk more about the developer event again, but the, the second big one is, uh, at some point in time, you're going to be able to run Android apps on windows. 
Frank: [00:14:02] Ooh, double shots fired. Is this a response to running iOS apps on Mac?
Like I did. I. In some ways we all should have saw this coming because Microsoft has not been bashful about saying like, oh, we want to make it. I mean, what they were working on running iOS apps on windows, at one point they we've been working on porting your Android apps to windows. They were trying to make that easier.
This is just yet that amazing business step. I almost more business Marvel at this than technology Marvel at this because they struck a deal with, um, uh, Amazon. Which I kind of love Pacific Northwest unite, you know, we gotta, we gotta take down California. So I like that. It's kind of weird because honestly, I don't remember what the status of ice circuit is on the Amazon store.
So I got some work to do as an app developer to make sure all my apps are actually on the Amazon store. But from a user's perspective, this is amazing. This is, uh, you're just, you're getting a whole bucket of app. A huge bucket of apps. 
James: [00:15:08] Yeah. And you know, this sort of follows the same route. A lot of people reach out to me and they're like, well, if you can just run your Android apps, like, you know, why would you do what we were just excited about running these native apps and immediately it's the same thing as on iOS, right?
Yes. You can run your iOS apps directly on Macko ass, but just like apple says it's much preferred if you were to do a catalyst application or of course, a native application to, to light up those native integrations. You know, for me, um, I'm, I'm not gonna run like my stream timer as an Android app. That's going to be a native application.
And, and at first, if I don't have a windows app, I may do the Android app first, but then work on the native apps. Native and app purchases and native notifications. I don't know what the extent of the Android native integration realm is. They showed off them running and Tik TOK and Khan academy and a bunch of other stuff, which is amazing.
Um, and it's using the windows subsystem for Android based on. Intel bridge technology. So it's not only just an Amazon partnership, but also an Intel partnership, uh, too. And apparently I think they said it also runs everything runs on AMD as well. Somehow. I don't know. It's all magic to me. It's it's because, you know, I understand what apple did to get the iOS apps to working.
But to me, this is bananas. Like it is just so cool. And I think from a consumer perspective, I think it's great. You know, there's apps that I don't have on windows, like my security camera wan or other ones. And I don't like their website. Like their websites are bad because they're an app first company.
And this means that I will be able to get an app first, you know, approach if I need to, my plan is to run as minimal Android apps as I can, and obviously go for the native apps first, possibly. But I know that there's not always going to be, you know, That I want on, on windows. Just like for me, guess what overcast wasn't available on Android.
It's my favorite podcast application or error, you know, um, our, uh, uh, I R a w K continuous. I forget all the names of your apps. You have too many continuous, right. You know, it's like, how do I get continuous? Well, you can't get it, you know, type of thing. But this is, this to me is, is cool. And, and what I think is awesome, going into dynamic math.
Right this fall with first-class support for windows and Mac and iOS and iPad and iOS and Android is yeah, you get to now do all of them from that single code base if you're in the Don ecosystem. So I do think from a developer perspective, at least a.net developer perspective for cross platform, this is super cool.
And getting those native integrations, because guess what? My stream timer again, I go back to what Miguel said about native applications. How much work did I have to do? To get my stream timer to light up with rounded corners and native stuff on windows 11, nothing. It just works, you know, because native UI.
Frank: [00:18:12] Yup. Yup. Actually, I think that was a little bit of my joke when I first got it running was I had to start vs code because that is not a native UI. And I was like, did they get the rounded corners? And they did. They got the rounded corners too, but yeah, I mean, your point's taken, it's interesting running Android apps on windows.
A lot of funny issues are definitely going to come up that we, as mobile developers are going to have to deal with, uh, Porting things to catalyst. You start to realize like, oh my app doesn't work great. When it's super wide or if it's super tall. Well, most apps work fine if they're super tall, but you know, window sizes, you probably don't have too many.
You have overall device dimension. Variety in the Android world, but you don't have shape variety. There's just not that much. So resizeable windows while they come. I'm really curious to see, uh, what version of Android windows broadcast itself as, okay. Are you, are you Android 4.2? Like all the other entrance?
Uh, it will be fun to see how they update over the years. Like, are they good? Are they going to become a newer Android? It's it's a little weird, uh, running a second operating system. And again, they're using that amazing feature of the, uh, the kernel that it has the subsystem component in it. I bet you it's very similar to the Linux subsystem since Android is Linux-based.
I bet you it's really not too different. Just more of a issue of drivers and all that. Uh, so yeah, and with the Maui coming up, I almost feel like iOS and Android, like your kind of first run targets. Now it's a little tricky because again, this, this is a windows 11 feature, as far as I understand. So it's not going to help windows 10 people, but if you're willing to target the newest.
Boy, I would start with Android and iOS and then get that windows version. Get that native windows version 
James: [00:20:07] out afterwards. Yeah. People are asking me and it's like, oh yeah. If I have an Android version and I don't have a windows version today. Yeah. I'm going to do the Android version. Right. I'm going to get that in the store.
And then I'm going to work on the windows version and B I'm assuming, you know, if we kind of looked, you know, apple. You know, when, when they, we only have like a iOS app, it's on a different tab. I have no idea what that's going to look like because in the insider preview, it doesn't have Android apps at all.
So we don't, we don't know yet what that experience is going to look like. We've only seen some videos. Um, but yeah, for me, I definitely, I definitely want the flexibility of customizing that UI. With the double down on the Microsoft store and the investment developers, there was a whole developers event afterwards, which is quite long and nice.
Um, I'm really open to see, or a Renaissance in windows applications again. Um, it's my daily write. I wrote my newsletter, I guess it's my daily driver and it's here. There's there's nothing like snapping windows back and forth. And, um, they, they, they improve that too, by the way, we're talking about snap layouts.
Uh, that's one of my new favorite features that they talked about is built into the box or six different layouts that they've optimized. I've been using power toys for all that. And this is way nicer because with power toys, you can only have one layout as the main focus point, but this one, you can have these six readily available and there's a double lane, uh, two thirds, one third, a triple lane, you know, uh, for up down left.
Right. You know, Small, medium, small. And so all sorts of good stuff. Like when you just hover over the bar just shows and you can snap around things. So I'm excited for that because I have this huge wide screen monitor, which at the developers event, they showed just everything on a widescreen monitor. I thought that was so cool because it's like, oh yeah, like I'm going to be using this on my widescreen monitor is going to be awesome because I still think windows.
Does windows best and snapping way over Mac OS. It's one of my things that I pet peeve on Monaco was like, just stop a window. Just snap. 
Frank: [00:22:12] It there's an app for that. 
James: [00:22:15] Do I have one? But like, but like I pad OOS, 
Frank: [00:22:21] they did improve it in iOS 15, honest to goodness it's been improved. . Right. Yeah. I'm not arguing on 
James: [00:22:32] the regional, on the original apple operating system that had a windowing support.
Improve the windowing. Come on, apple. You got this. Oh my goodness. Anyways, 
Frank: [00:22:42] let me, uh, say something positive. Uh, my favorite feature of windows 11, and maybe you've noticed this because I think you said that you put it on your surface go. Yep. And this is only a feature I found out if you're using your meat, thumb did interact with the computer.
When you drag a window. It reassesses like it animates resources, just like in a map, it has like full frame animation going on. And that is good because windows 10 was a decent touchy, Y you know, no real big complaints on it, but every so often there would be a lag or you couldn't tell if you quite gripped something correctly.
This is a huge affordance. Like it's very obvious you've grabbed that window now, move it around. It's it's fun. I like it I'll take any little animation like that. It sounds so small, but on a touch UI, you really need those bits of feedback because you're like, is my finger wet? Like, are you tracking me?
What's going on? 
James: [00:23:38] Yeah, they, they did say they increased the touch, uh, areas and Optum optimize it quite a bit. And, and I've been having great success with that. Um, On this, on this device so far. And yeah, I would say the animations besides the UI refresh, the reason I say it feels fresh and alive more is because of those animations.
And, and this was really neat. And panelists did talk about this, about how they, and they put these animations throughout the operating system. So one thing is like, when you hover over icons in the bar, like some of them, they all like do a little bit of something like the search, it. The, the little mirror, like lights up a little bit.
And when you tap on it, it does a little animation. It like lights up. And when you hover over anything, it does that too. You, but what I think is really neat is like, if you open up, um, maybe it's it's finder or, or anything like anything that has like a back button or a new button, like there's like little tiny animations just spread throughout the operating system.
Or like the settings. That's a great example. I love settings. Um, so that's a great example where like, if you're deep into something you can just like, if you just hover over, you get a little animation, when you click back, it does a little animation, you know, when you actually just launch an app, it does a little animation.
When you, when you minimize it, it does the shrinking. Like it shrinks it down. It brings it up. My new favorite thing on animation. If you just like, take, take that window and you move it to the left or to the right, like you're going to pin it. It does this like mirror glass see-through very aptly or, um, blur behind it.
Oh, it's so pretty. It's just, can I correct? You. 
Frank: [00:25:29] That Butler that was from Vista baby. It's it's slightly different. But, um, the, I wish people had seen the original renderings of Vista. It did not come out the way it was supposed to come out. And the artist did a smashing job with the glass effect back then, uh, it was a part of the Aero design.
Oh yeah. What are they calling it? This, this one's not called glass. Is it it, they did give it a name. I think, I think it just 
James: [00:25:56] updated fluent. 
Frank: [00:25:58] Yeah, well, I'm speaking specifically at the transparency. Um, this was, I have seen this transparency before, but it got shut down. So it's actually really wonderful to see a comeback.
And so I'm personally, I think of it as the Vista transparency, uh, but done in a slightly more modern version. It was slightly more gaudy back in the day, but yeah, it looks absolutely great. Um, Yeah. Third winning on snapping. I'll give you that, James, I'll give you 
James: [00:26:31] that. What else do we have in here? They talked about the things that we don't have in this preview is I am, I am really, really, really, really, really, really, really excited for the team's integration.
Cause I feel like that's the message version that they're going to build into windows. It's on your phone. It's everywhere. That's really neat to me. That'll be, I, that seems really nice. They also have, um, widgets, they got widgets support. 
Frank: [00:26:57] Well, th the widgets are a little funny as far as I could tell.
They're just Microsoft widgets. I don't think developers can get into them just yet, but I mean, it's begging for developer integration, so hopefully that'll be possible. 
James: [00:27:11] Yeah, I have no idea. Uh, there are at least on this one, they added some stuff to windows 10. There's like a little bottom, right? Like weather thing.
And it has like top stories and it's, it's similar and has rounded corners, but there's a button on this one that says, add widgets and you can add. Some other things into it, like photos and weather and watch lists of stocks and traffic and calendar stuff. So, yeah, I have no idea. I'm, I'm, I'm excited to see if they do open that up at some point for, for devs to get into.
Cause I, I didn't know anything about widgets, but I was, I was in the last, the podcast talking about widgets because of this thing they did on windows 10 and the recent update as a man, I hope that we get expanded widgets. And what do you know, Frank? We got expanded widgets, so that's. I don't know I'm in, I'm all in, as you can see, I'm, I'm really enjoying.
It's been years. It's been 5, 6, 7 years, however long since we had windows and I love windows 10. It's my daily driver. I love, I love it. Right. And this to me just feels nice. I mean, 
Frank: [00:28:14] Yeah, I think that's why everyone's nervous because Microsoft has a bad record of the tick tock cycle with these operating systems like windows 10 was good.
Absolutely. We want new things, but when it was 11, we're all a little bit nervous about, that's why I'm being especially critical. I'm like, okay, what did you change? Where's my cheese, all that important stuff. But let's talk about that settings app real quick. I just have to give a shout out to it because settings on windows has always been a little tricky back in the day we had the control panel.
It was nice. Great have a place. Things were stuck in a lot of dialogue boxes and windows eight. They tried to improve that with a new kind of mobile, uh, inspired design the Metro settings, but it was really weird. Some settings were in the Metro world, some were in the control panel, world. Think windows 10, finally kind of got it right.
And then, uh, windows 11 just took it up to 11. The settings app is actually comprehend right now. If I'm a little, I love them. Metro design and the Metro aesthetic, but it can go wrong and goes wrong quite often. Um, the one that kept happening for me is in windows update, it would list 8 million packages.
It needs to download and it just looked like a giant. Text box full of text. Like, what am I supposed to do with this? Now, when you go into it, each of those boxes has yes, rounded corners with a nice backfill. So it's separated from its neighbors. You can tell it's a distinct object and not just a bunch of texts in a text box.
Uh, so I am just loving the clean look of the operating system. I don't know where things are. I don't know if they moved my cheese. I'll be very upset if they did, but I'll adapt. There's 
James: [00:29:58] color. Uh, in this menu and the icon 
Frank: [00:30:02] choice, James w what would you possibly use color 
James: [00:30:05] for? I, again, the consistency I do on windows 10, enjoy the consistency of the look and feel like the icons are all the same.
However, these ones have a lot more personality and color to them, and the layout is extremely nice because for me, Is when I open settings, Frank, here's what I like about it is that I get. Really important information in these main tabs without having to dive deeper. For example, I go to system, I can see when the last time I checked a windows update, I can manage my one, drive my Microsoft account and I can rename my device and look at the desktop.
If I go into network and. I can see what wifi I'm connected to. I can see what properties, how much data I've used. I don't have to tap something else. I've gone. You know, I've just gotten into the main section and it gives me this really pertinent information without having to go deeper. And that's like a consistent theme.
Like if I go into Bluetooth and devices, it shows me all of my connected devices with nuts. Image. You're like, this is a mouse, this is a keyboard, you know, it's paired, it's not paired without having to go deeper into additional settings. You know, same thing with personalization, right up top, you can select a theme to apply and that will apply like things that you would want to do often are sort of right at the, at your fingertips.
And I thought that was a really nice touch of settings besides the organization and the sort of breath of fresh air that was, was blown into it. 
Frank: [00:31:46] Yeah. And you keep bringing up the icons. And I want to say something before I forget, because I've forgotten twice already. Um, Microsoft released a new icon font.
So what we've been using up till now has been called like Sago. Symbols something. I think Sago symbol, something like that. Well, which is good. It has all, it has all your classic icons that you could want, but there is a new one that is matching the look of windows 11. And I'm so sorry with all that lead up.
I forgotten its name because you don't really need to know the font itself and a UWP app. Symbols just have names. There's an email them out there for all the symbols. And you can just use that in your code. But there is a new font out there, just FYI, if you ever want to go browsing through, and there are documentation pages listing all the iconography and all that.
So just a shout out out there. If you are hard, coding the font into your apps, you might want to update to this one to get the new iconography. As far as I know, it's just the two tone, just the, um, the black. Once it's not the new colorful ones, but keep an eye out also for the visual studio icon packs that always come out with a release of visual studio.
I think this is a year for a new visual studio. I honestly can never keep up, but, uh, when they do have a new visual studio, chances are, they'll have a nice icon pack to go 
James: [00:33:14] with it. You know, someone's really cool. Okay. So. Um, on the bottom, right of your surface go under windows 11. You know, you already see like Wi-Fi, um, the battery and the Valium tap on that.
It's one thing. 
Frank: [00:33:30] Yes, it's a control panel. I thought it was very iOS if, if I'm honest, but I love it. I love it because these are the things that, but even better, it's a configurable control panel. So, uh, I know when I was learning new languages, I was bouncing between two keyboards constantly. And it's nice to be able to two taps, which are keyboard.
Yeah, two taps. That's plenty. So you can add keyboard switching. What do they have? They have network Bluetooth, airplane mode, battery saver, focus, all computers need focus now, volume, brightness accessibility. But those are customizable. There are other ones too. Yeah, I do like it because that task, our area has been getting kind of nasty lately, lately.
And I think this is definitely an improvement. 
James: [00:34:18] Yeah. And, and they really sort of made things. Look and feel correct. Like if you go to the, if you tap on the wifi, there's a little arrow, which would bring you into the wifi settings. If you tap on the volume thing, it can select the output. Here's my new favorite feature though.
See, on the bottom right of that little pop-up there's all settings. There's a little gear tap on that and just watch that animation. 
Frank: [00:34:39] It flew off to the right end. And then nothing happened. 
James: [00:34:42] Oh, it was supposed to launch settings 
Frank: [00:34:45] of settings authority up. Oh, that's 
James: [00:34:46] fine. Yeah. So anyways, it does this like cute animation.
I think that's what they're really going for these things throughout, um, the operating system again, to make it feel a little bit more alive. So that, that one's a cute little animation I've been starting to see. Yeah. Here and there, um, throughout the operating system and just, you know, I liked, I liked the look and feel of it.
Like I said, it looks, feels modern. It does feel like windows. Like I, you know, I think that some people might think that maybe there's a, more of like a macro S look to it, but I do think they're very distinct and different. When I'm just using it every single day. And I think the finder is, is a great example because I actually don't like finder.
I like, how do I call the, the finder, the file Explorer? I noticed. Yeah. I find it is a pretty decent name for it. But the file Explorer, I think is a, is a lot better on windows. I always get just confused on finder on Mac. Like, I don't know how to navigate around or go up or anything. It's just so confusing.
Like I just understand windows and. It makes me happy and it makes me happy. Like I just went up to desktop and I see control panel has a new icon and that work and the recycle bin and this computer, like, I dunno, it just makes me feel happy when I see everything updated and cohesive and just, I don't know.
It feels nice, Frank. It feels nice. 
Frank: [00:36:08] It does. I will say we have lost someone though. We have lost tiles. There are no longer tiles just dancing around in the start menu, 
James: [00:36:18] but there's pinned. There's pinned apps. Yeah. 
Frank: [00:36:21] You still have your start menu. I call that still there all the time that you put into designing that they're just not doing their cutesy little dance or, you know, telling, telling you to watch the football game or whatever it is the tiles do.
That's what widgets. I don't think you can write a widget. I don't think I do it. I don't 
think 
James: [00:36:40] so. At least, at least that's what they didn't talk about though. The windows developer event, which, uh, it, that was great. Anyways. I'm I'm, I'm all in Frank. I love it. I love it. Oh, multi desktop support. What do you think.
Frank: [00:36:55] Oh, I'm sure. You know, it's one of those things I never grew up with multi desktop, so I just don't use it that much. Um, I tend to get lost, like I'll, I'll do multitask, desktop, use one desktop, create another, use that one, create another, use that one and just completely forget that all those other ones exist, but that's all on me.
James: [00:37:17] It's my fault. I'm the same. I'm the same. Um, I was, I was making the video and I was, I was doing some stuff with that and I was like, oh, this is like, I like that you can drag and drop windows and do this other stuff. It feels cool. I want to get used to it. I do feel as though there's an opportunity that I'd be like, oh, like this is my gaming one, or this is my podcast set up.
And I have all my podcast stuff there because it keeps all of your pinned items per desktop. So I could, you know, instead of cluttering my, my start menu or my task bar on the bottom with everything it's custom to that profile, basically, it's like a profile inside of it. So that's super neat. Um, Yeah, I'm, I'm enjoying it.
I'm liking it. Frank, 
Frank: [00:37:58] can I give, uh, can I give my favorite developer feature? Yeah, arm 64, emulation through a compatible X 64 ABI. Can I break that down? Yeah, sure. I'd go for it. Uh, windows had technology before, uh, to run X, a X 32 and maybe X 64 code on an arm device. Just like Rosetta on the Mac.
Microsoft had it. It wasn't quite as advanced as Rosetta. I'm going to, I'm going to do a little dig there. Uh, but Microsoft came. Swinging swinging hard, James. So what they now have, they change their arm 64 ABI, which is your application binary interface. It's how you call functions in a programming language specifically.
How do you pass arguments using which registers, how do you return values using which registers depending on data types, how do you store data? That's called the ABI, right? They changed their arm, 64 ABI to be much more similar to their, uh, Intel 64 bit ABI. What does that mean? It means you can have one process that is running both arm 64 and Intel 64 code at the same time.
That is a system programmer and a little magic trick. That's a little bit of show off. If, if, if I may, but they had a really good argument for why they need to be able to do this. There are some very ancient windows apps out there that have plugins for them that aren't necessarily. Re compilable, you know, the source code might be gone.
The developer's gone, but windows, this ancient, the apps on it are sometimes ancient too. And people got to keep running those. So there was a real roadblock to updating apps to be arm apps because maybe a plugin or something wouldn't work with it. Now that's not a barrier anymore. The app can be written an arm 64, and the plugin can be written in Intel 64.
It's kind of crazy, but I think it's really cool. What they managed to pull off here. It does mean that if you want, if you have an arm 64 app right now on windows, you'll probably want to compile it with this new ABI to take advantage of this new capability. Then again, If you don't, if you know, for sure, you're never going to need Intel 64 bay code that, uh, you don't have to, but I just think it's a real tech wizardry.
James: [00:40:30] Oh, yeah. Whenever they do crazy stuff like that, it always blows my mind. Like how's, how's that even possible? 
Frank: [00:40:37] Yep. It's called an application binary interface because it's down to the chip level of saying this register should be used for the very first floating point argument of these kinds of functions, you know, it's that kind of argument.
The arm chip and the Intel chip they're similar, but they're totally different. So how do you make an ABI match between those two? I, I can't wait to read the spec on it. 
James: [00:40:59] Oh my goodness. Uh, yeah. I, I think that this. You know, update and some core underlying things like with WSL Ws, LG, the subsystem for Android, like the arm support, it does feel we're going to reuse these words all the time, like this fresh, you know, version, but there's, there's a lot here, you know, it's more than just a visual redesign.
There's a lot under the hood that is taking place to really, really, uh, Make it feel like a next next gen. Oh, of true 11, like a true ally. Yeah. 
Frank: [00:41:41] Yeah. I'm excited. You know how excited I am James? I bought a new computer to run it. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I was deciding my, my windows computers were getting a little long in the tooth if I may.
Um, and I decided I. You know that the good news is, um, Ram hasn't really changed in years hard drives haven't changed power supplies haven't changed. So I was actually able to reuse a whole bunch of, uh, components and I've built myself a cheap new windows machine just to run my windows 11 because though I love my surface.
Go surface, go. You are a wonderful computer. You are. Slow. And I just wanted, uh, a nice, uh, Zippy windows machine. So I'm all excited to get going on that. 
James: [00:42:27] Good. Yeah. You know, uh, I haven't, I have it on a few of my devices. I'm still like, there's different requirements, like for, for all sorts of different things, like any operating system.
And I, I use my main machine, my desktop as my main driver. And I've been thinking about putting it on it. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I have it on my services. I'm like, okay. Maybe I'll just like, play with that at least for a week. And just like, see how I feel before, you know, at least try all the apps that I'm using to podcasts to do videos.
I do streaming like, you know, it's, it's, I need it to do all the things. And so far from just the first day or two, it seeming like everything is working busy. You know, when you went from. For all the updates of windows 10 over the years. I never fear that anything was really going to break. And so far it doesn't really sound like anything is broken because fundamentally it's not like we were going to a new app model or to a new thing.
Like, I don't know what under the hood magic is there, but it still feels. It's windows at the end of the day, just like when I upgraded to, um, the big Sur it's still Mac. So all my Mac apps work, it didn't feel like there's breaking changes. Right. It just felt like there was additions and some wizardry, like you were saying to make things, look brand new and perform and have these, you know, transparencies and, and all these new UI look and feel to them.
So to me, I'm feeling really good about it is what I mean. 
Frank: [00:43:58] No, I think it's complete trash. I'm just kidding. No, I just praised it for 40 minutes. Of course. I like it too. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I I'm I'm here for it. Um, w did they give up release date? I think they said next year. Uh, so they'll probably be doing previous for awhile.
It's been really stable for me. I don't know if I'd put it on my main machine. Like I, I have input Monterey. Um, I, a machine I'm a little more. I hesitant with that. That's why I just bought another computer. 
James: [00:44:25] Yeah, no, I think that's a good way of looking at it as I have. I've always these other laptops sitting around, so it's fun to play with it it's work or what I go to the video on and I think the surface go with me everywhere around.
So that'll be really nice to you. Uh, anything else you want to talk about windows 11 about, do we miss anything? The dev event was great. I'll put links in the show notes. It's on his, on YouTube. Um, you know, they showed a bunch of new features, obviously of development of different technologies, whether it be.net or PWAs or, or, you know, games or things like that.
But, um, anything else you wanna talk? 
Frank: [00:45:01] Uh, no, I'm, I'm sure it's going to be coming up as time goes on. Especially when I try to find out if I circuit is going to run on it. That's the great experiment I'm doing here. So I'm sure we're going to be talking lots of windows 11 coming up exciting year.net, six windows, 11 crazy stuff.
James: [00:45:19] Tall new, new, new, yes, I am. I'm all here for it. Um, well, let us know in the show notes, you know, leave us a comment and go to merge conflict.fm comment on the show. You can write us an email. You go to our discord, you can use it on Twitter. You can do all things. Just let us know. What's your experience? Are you digging windows 11 so far?
Are you going to put out some new ads? You're going to stall it, or you're going to buy a new CPU like Frank did, who knows? Um, we should go into computer building maybe next week because, um, I'm, I'm fascinated because in the past, when you wanted to, uh, create a new machine, you had to basically get everything new.
Like you're really everything. So it's been a while since I built a new rig. Uh, so. The rig I have is actually a rig that my friend Jesse built and gave to me because it was better than the rig that I built. So I recycled some of those parts, but I never know. I don't understand. Before we get out of here.
I don't understand. Let's say, let's say I just have a motherboard and a hard drive in there. Okay. Okay. Am I able to just upgrade the CPU and everything still work? 
Frank: [00:46:29] Uh, yeah, actually, um, that wasn't always the case, but most operating systems are pretty resilient to it. The worst thing that can happen is you might have to reenter your windows license key or something like that.
Um, but even then I've yeah, there are times where I did not have to do that, which was a small miracle because as far as I knew, that was based on like internet addresses or something, but whatever, um, Yeah, it works. I don't want to say it works a hundred percent of the time, but yeah, you actually can do that.
I tried to do that myself and completely failed. However, so I ended up doing a clean install, but I did try and failed for unknown reasons. I should say, there is one tiny difference in windows 11 it's it's 64 bit only that really won't affect anyone, but it just, it was occurring to me just as you were doing the outro.
And I was like, there was one last thing that developers have to consider, but. We've all been doing 64 bit for awhile. I haven't run a 32 bit app in years, so I can't imagine how many people that's going to 
James: [00:47:32] affect. No, I mean, it's literally a button. And like when you, when you compile a windows app, you, it does it by default.
So 
Frank: [00:47:40] yeah, it would have to be some pretty ancient software running, but either way we could do a hardware episode any time because I find building PCs to be one of the most enjoyable experiences. I love building PCs. It's. It's great. I had fun doing it today. I'm 
James: [00:47:58] excited. I also, you know, the thing when you build a PC, the best moment by the way is like, when you get to the end, you put the case on, and then you hit the button and nothing happens.
And you're like, oh no, what did I do? And then you shouldn't have super glued at shot. You open you open up the rig, and then you realize that you swap. The reset and the on power button. Oh, one tiny pain. Like I do that all the time. 
Frank: [00:48:26] Yeah. Like I just, I made that mistake, but it's so possible because there's like 8,000 pins of them are the 
James: [00:48:32] power plants that happens to be like every single time.
I'm like, oh my God. Or like, I'll have like a ran as like not set in all the way or something like that. Like, oh my goodness. So classic anyways. Cool. Well, thanks everyone for tuning in and yeah, let us know what you're thinking about everything going on the windows 11 world. And I'll put a link to the, the key notes, a developer event and my YouTube, uh, video that I did where I broke down stuff and talked about running visual studio, 2022.
And debugging applications, which is super cool right on windows. Everything's working. Great. It's awesome. Um, Android emulators with hyper V are all working great. Um, everything's working great. That's what I'm saying. I'm super excited, but I was going to for this week's merge conflicts. So until next time, James Bond's Magno 
Frank: [00:49:12] and I'm Frank Krueger.
Thanks for listening, gees.