mergeconflict228
James: [00:00:00] Oh, my goodness. 
Frank: [00:00:12] I feel like it's been out for a year, but again, time has no meaning. So like maybe it's been out for 10 years. Maybe it's been out for five years, either way we know it's out now, and now is all that matters. So yes. Let me say happy, happy.net five day. 
James: [00:00:26] Yes. Have you done a five day, but at the same time, Frank, we are recording this on November 10th, which is a pinnacle day because not only is it the X-Box series X and series S launch day, but Apple.
Decided to make it another launch day by launching a brand new SOC, which by the way, Apple had one of the best illustrations and explanations of system on a chip that I've ever had better than you, Frank. It's better than you. It was so good. I'm like, wow. I understand our system on a chip now. Like thank you, Apple.
But I find it amazing. 
Frank: [00:01:03] I'm just, sorry. I just have to defend myself. How many graphic designers did they have? What we are in audio medium. Usually today. Oddly enough, we're on video, but, uh, usually who we are an audio medium. I can't have graphics. I can't have my presentation materials. I could have done that.
Good. I'm just kidding. Oh, my God, they're there. I feel like their presentations are like obnoxiously. Good. Now, did you see the one where like a slide? I transitioned from the bottom floor to the top floor and it went on to the next screen and the camera shifted up. It was just like, okay, you're just showing off whatever the production company maybe they hired.
And I still, I want to do my homework and find out who these people are. You're just showing off. Stop it 
James: [00:01:41] that's all they're doing is they're just, they're basically just showing off nonstop, I would say. And, and I'm okay with it. Um, this was an exciting Apple event. This is an exciting.net comp today. It's still going for two more days.
I'm going to be on camera tomorrow. It would be, I don't know. There's a bunch of stuff going on. Um, let's just get into it. We're going to do a multi. Pod series here. Um, we're going to do a long aided with a sponsor break in between, but if you're using an application that has chapters, I will put chapters.
I'm going to do that for you. I'm putting chapters in. So let it be known now. I never, I don't usually don't put in chapters. You know why Frank? 
Frank: [00:02:19] All right. Are you prepping me for a really long episode here? You don't put chapters in because our conversations are free flowing. They're like waves in the sea.
You can't really distinguish them. 
James: [00:02:29] Uh, I was just going to say, cause I was lazy, but 
Frank: [00:02:31] yes, exactly that too, right? Yeah. Uh, always go with the artistic interpretation, dude. Never say the L word. I'm excited. Yeah, because, uh, I was excited. I knew we were going to record today. I didn't know what we were going to record on because there was so much stuff going on.
So I thought we would just do an Epic episode, but. I have no idea where we're going to go with this. I'm just hoping my internet connection stays on this time. Honestly, 
James: [00:02:55] that's very, very true. I will say this though. Um, I think it's good to do a two-parter because the Apple event, I think we can cover relatively quick, but let's get into it.
Um, at comp was. Was this year it's every year. It's like the 10th year anniversary of this thing started as NBC company has to be done. That that was Donna IComp and it's a virtual conference. I've been doing it for years and by day, I mean, Microsoft and the community together, um, day one and day two, or our kind of like product team.
And then there's another day and a half of community, 24 hour. Awesome is a bunch of people are presenting. I'm really stoked. The keynote I thought was fantastical. I was jazz because you got the Scots altogether. Scott Hunter, the Scott Hanselman and the Scott Guthrie who brought out the F the first asp.net, like architecture book like that.
He wrote to craft what ASP on that would 
Frank: [00:03:49] be. Yeah, it was, it was fun. And they were playing up the red shirt thing. They all had red shirts on. It was all very cute. Um, the, the design spec, I, I just kept growing it, like, like, Oh gosh, I bet you. I like, cause he, he would be reading through it and he'd be like, Ooh, or go ahead.
We fixed that part. Um, but then, uh, his retelling of the time when he first implemented ASP, I thought was really kind of. Inspirational and depressing at the same time, the inspirational part was, um, it was kind of a glorious hack for a difficult problem. And it was nice to know that. I make lots of little hacks and I never know like which ones are actually good and which ones will actually grow.
And he was talking exactly to those points where it's good to get that kind of demo out to prove the concept because ASP wasn't something that existed before. Of course it was going to seem odd and weird at the time because he was targeting non Java script. Um, there was no.net back then. So he was using the built-in windows, scripting, runtime.
It was crazy times and it was just kind of inspiring to see that awesome hack turn into what it is today. The depressing part is the cycle just continues. Cause like his description sounded like me working on, we are like, or, you know, everyone working on blazer, you know, we just keep cycling over and over on these API APIs.
James: [00:05:20] It truly is. I mean, especially when something's new and it's, you know, hasn't been done before. Of course, it's not like you're just adding a feature. It's something that is new. So it's, it's, it's actually been fun to watch blazer evolve in a way. Um, you know, they announced a blazer, um, web assembly pre-rendered, which is a really cool technology where you still have a server component and it pre renders it on the server and sends it down and that still works offline.
So the. The user's machine has to do a lot less than it's a smaller payload because it's pre rendering as we use for live.net. Actually, there's 
Frank: [00:05:58] sorry. I have to interject. We does that. And your website does that. Sorry, there you go. Right. Um, so tech 
James: [00:06:04] is good tag, right? But you guys kind of see it slowly, gradually evolved from a server only.
So server pre-render to, to WebAssembly, to WebAssembly, pre-render kind of like mixing and matching these technologies. I will say it gets a little complicated I'm um, especially when your mind's like, where is the code running? Remember when, remember when I, I had to ask Heather. Like I was building the email where he got the code wrong.
Like, I don't understand. So 
Frank: [00:06:29] especially in the blazer world, I've done a few, a Twitch streams with it. And there was one episode where every time an exception would throw the browser would lock up and you're like, which side is causing the problem. And then eventually you're so happy when you actually get an exception on the browser side, but then you're like, Where did that exception come from?
Yeah. Yeah. It's it really makes you question reality. But, um, when all of it's working, gosh, it's so smooth and nice. It's, it's worth those temperamental little moments. 
James: [00:07:03] Yeah, we were doing the live on our website, live dot on it. That's L I V E dot D O t.net. Um, or when you go to the.net website, you can just click a live TV up.
That was probably easier, but we were developing that it had gone through many stages. It went through, um, being a razor page to being a blazer server, to being a web assembly, to being WebAssembly pre-rendered and. You know, it doesn't have to do a lot of interaction with JavaScript, but mostly the countdown.
And then also, um, figuring out like the local time zones and stuff and sorting. So like we just figured out a bug after a week or two someone in, I think I, I figured it out because there was an event that was happening in India, which again is like 12 and a half hours ahead. So like the server was sorting it.
On the UTC time. And then locally, it was only updating the timestamp to the local time and not regrouping them. So we had to like figure out that, which is like, Oh, and now re order them. Cause like, where is the code running? Where is the data coming from? Like, it's a good question. 
Frank: [00:08:09] So yeah. It's it's you always think you have daytime figured out and then.
Someone's scheduled an event in India or, uh, you know, but less than I was always taught was, uh, never use daytime, always use daytime offset because it's specifically about those groupings in the end. It, it has nothing to do with the logic or the data processing. It's all about UI at that point of putting it into the kind of right place and grouping it with the right events and all that.
How did we get onto the topic of, uh, daytime here? 
James: [00:08:39] I dunno. You know what I'm excited for though? Frank, number one, you feature of down at five, right? 
Frank: [00:08:45] I have a number one myself. So what do you got? 
James: [00:08:48] I was watching, um, Kathleen Dollard session and she was talking about, um, I forget who the, the, the one engineer that was with her.
I'm so sorry. Javier, was it Javier? Maybe we've been Javier and anyways, they were talking about. The new TFS and supported operating systems inside of the CS proj. And this brings me back to like, finally, we figured it out, like Xamarin did it right forever. Right? Like we, we did it, we did it. Right. But now it's, it's like so much even better.
And what I mean by this is really, when you think about it, there's two important points of compiling and targeting and operating system, which is, I need to compile. Against the iOS 14 SDK, but I need to support iOS 10 and, and, and that's really complicated, right. Because what APIs do you expose? Do you only expose the iOS 14?
Do you only expose the iOS 10? How is that done correctly and as developers, Frank and I, we know for mobile development was Xamarin for a long time. You would basically do that. You would come say, I want to compile against the latest SDK and luckily both iOS and Android support this sort of back compat saying, I want to go back there and you would say, if, you know, do your operating system check version, then I can call this API, if not, I can't, but now you can literally in your target framework, say, I would like to support, you know, dot net.
Dev Five-O dash iOS 14, and then you can say supported, you know, iOS 10, right. And then the IntelliSense knows everything. We'll give you warnings and we'll give you squigglies. And then on top of that, what's cool. Is they added a new. Um, API that says operating system.is windows that is iOS, and you can pass in the version number.
Finally, like we did it. It's like, you know, it's in there. So, 
Frank: [00:10:45] boom. Okay. That actually does sound pretty good. I can't believe you picked such a nerdy topic standard. We really build, build targets. That's what we're going with here, but okay. You kind of won me over a little bit. Um, okay. I was thinking, yeah, like I run into that with dotnet core and the way I handle that, as you do like a global Jason, and that way you can kind of pick the SDK and that can be different from the thing that you're actually targeting.
That's how you can get that difference. So it sounds like they're just kind of cleaning that up to, am I able, is it, does it go very far back? Could I use the dotnet five SDK to create. Dot net core 2.1 or is that not allowed? 
James: [00:11:27] No, this is more like I'm going to target windows, right. I'm going to build a windows thing and then I am going to also support windows seven.
Okay. 
Frank: [00:11:39] Uh, does it support multi iOS and then multi-platform ING, multi, whatever you want to call it, not multi targeting then, or is it still called multitask? 
James: [00:11:48] I think it's multi targeting. Yeah. You should be able to bump up, up, up, up, up, up in there. I think. 
Frank: [00:11:53] Mm. Hmm. Okay. I like it 
James: [00:11:56] so far. All I know is emo told me that multi targeting is like a key experience in dotnet five down at six.
So. 
Frank: [00:12:05] Oh boy. Okay. Yeah. And that, that's actually kind of funny because I run into that stuff constantly. And it's not just old apps. Like iOS 14 just came out and one of my apps use those a little bit of reflection and it's a little bit of a, it doesn't really check itself. It's just like goes, looks at whatever properties.
It can see throws up whatever properties. And there's this annoying pug where, um, if it's running on iOS 13, It uses reflection and sees that the API exists so tries to call it through reflection operating system, throws down the hammer and crashes the process because he tried to access, um, Worst case it's not even a non-existent API, it's one that was private, but became public.
So that's why, like they really shut down your process. If you try to touch that API. So this version stuff matters. So I am, um, I am happy that it's getting taken really seriously. 
James: [00:13:03] Yeah. Give it a look, give it a, that, what is your. Pitney your next big one. Just go back and forth. Stop it. 
Frank: [00:13:07] Okay. Yeah. This is fun.
Um, I, I have to do the language one. I think we've already talked about it a little bit. Uh, C sharp nine records. This is a big part of why I love F sharp, honestly. Um, the ability to, and very few lines of code. I know you can make the argument lines of code don't matter, but it matters a little bit and very few lines of code.
You can create data objects, data classes that are immutable. This is very different from C-sharp normal default of creating mutable objects. By default. These are immutable by default and it's. Good to have that compliment. Like you don't always want mutable objects. For example, the string object is not mutable for good reasons, because code would be very complex if string was mutable.
So there are just times when you want to create immutable objects, especially like, if you're like me and you've been drinking the functional programming, uh, gin. We'll call it. Yeah. Wine, whatever. And you just really love these things. And I think that are a big part of creating, um, really robust software software that can run on multiple threads.
Lots of good reasons to have immutable objects. 
James: [00:14:17] Yeah. I, um, does it a demo recently talking about C-sharp nine and one of my keynotes for the Donna dev summit last week, which is a community run event out of Singapore. And I sort of did a, you know, your normal. Kind of record demos that I have a person first name and a last name, and I can collapse it down and do all this stuff.
And then I talk about override and like the new, um, instead of get sad or get private set, you have get, um, in it, which is basically private, you know, in it for yourself. So you can have a constructor. Now, the thing about records that are cool is like you're saying is immutable and there's this new syntax where you could say, let's say you have a person Frank, you could say Frank with basically, and you could.
Um, I forgot what the syntax is exactly, but basically you're creating a new instance. Of it like a kind of a copy, right. Is, I mean, it's, it is a copy. It's a deep copy in a way. 
Frank: [00:15:13] Shallow, shallow copy. Yeah. Yeah. The neat thing is that it's not deep. That's why they're kind of cheap because they are shallow.
And if you think it kind of through that, because they're immutable because they're shallow, you can reuse parts from other objects and that's what kind of makes them so useful. So when you first talk about how functional programming works for your. Conceptually semantically, creating new objects constantly.
That can be very wasteful, but this is a little trick and functional programming to reuse old objects and parts of old objects. And that's safe because they can't be modified. So it's just a nice, safe operation. So they give us beautiful shallow copy. Oh, I've wanted shadow copy for a long time. 
James: [00:15:54] Well, it's sort of like, um, I was thinking about a few things that I saw on like continuous when I got to dev on and a little bit, but, um, You know, if you think of like undo technology, imagine every single step is a bump, a bump, it's like a boom.
You just have a dictionary of all these things and you forever have, and it's a state, right? It's like almost makes it very stateful to say, Oh, what is the state of the editor right now? Well, it's index zero it's index five. And it doesn't matter because it's like, this is, uh, the, the current right presentation of what the data is.
Um, it's kind of similar to like an MGU style ask. 
Frank: [00:16:31] Yeah, 
James: [00:16:32] you know, way of thinking about it. And I thought that was really neat. Um, just how it works in general and how you can easily create new copies. And I have to worry about, I've had so many times in my code, I have these, you know, dot copy functions that do certain things.
And I was like, ah, so annoying, just like tweak one thing because I wanted a whole different instance of it. Yeah. And then, then you don't have to worry about that anymore. 
Frank: [00:16:55] And do you never know when you write that function, whether to do a deep copy or a shallow copy, you start to write it and you write the shallow one, then you're like, Hmm, that collection, should I be copying every element in that collection?
And it's a conundrum because it's mutable and you don't know what's safe and what's not safe. You have a big question Mark over it with immutable. You don't have that question Mark anymore. No, it's safe to reuse it because it can't be edited. It's that simple. And I really love that duality, that state.
By definition is mutable data. That's it changes in time. That is the definition of state data that changes in time. Um, but it turns out that the safest way to model that and use that is with immutable data. And just swapping pointers. And so your state is just a pointer to an immutable object. Whenever you want to update the state, you just point to a new, uh, object.
And for multithreading reasons, you can imagine why there are so many benefits to that simplicity. 
James: [00:17:48] Yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a fan. I was immediately gone through a bunch of my codes, seeing what I could update to records, and there's a bunch of other great C-sharp nine features we did talk about, but I'm sure we'll talk about it a little bit more, but my next one.
It has to be the brand new that doesn't actually have to really do with Donna at five, but with visual studio 60 and eight, which is the brand new XAML hot reload, 2.0 that Maddie announced today. 
Frank: [00:18:11] I saw this, I saw this, I have an interest in the hot reload, a family of products. So I'm always curious to see how these are going and bow it's looking good.
It's looking really good. A feature I noticed that they called out was, uh, it'll update the UI without having to hit the save button. And that was always one of my pet peeves. I'm like, yeah, I don't want to hit the save button either. So it was like, yeah, you go no save 
James: [00:18:34] buttons. It's true. Yeah. So previously, how.
At least your Xamarin forms. And for, I think for all of them, I'm not really sure if UWP and WPF are different, but basically with hot reload, what we do is you would save the file and it would, it would. Basically refresh your entire page. It will say here's the news animal go. And that's a little complicated because it's going to throw away your state.
If you haven't set it up correctly. Right. If, if it's doesn't really know about your code behind. So if you set in the code behind it's going to work, but like, what about if you entered something on the page as your view model going to keep it, you know, if I just had an N an entry it's going to go away, 
Frank: [00:19:12] right.
It was one of those things that if you took a purist view towards XAML and did everything by the book, it worked perfectly, but. You know me, I don't do anything by the book. So it would always kind of fail for me. And I've seen you, you, you take exceptions by the book sometimes from the book. 
James: [00:19:28] Yeah. I kind of live your own life.
I like to say. And, um, yeah, so this is really cool. So there is a lot of productivity stuff. So the first thing that Mandy showed off was that a worst with UWP, um, with Xamarin forms. Which is cool and all the adornment stuff work and all that stuff, which is really cool. The live visual tree works, which means you get to see a Dom representation of all the elements on your page.
Kind of like F 12, when you're on a developer page, you can see all the elements in the HTML. You can click on one and go to it. Exactly the same kind of like in the browser type of tools. Um, as you're typing, it will look for a valid XAML once it has valid XAML it does, um, It, it has like, basically I'm going to call it a Dom.
It's basically a Dom, right? It has the Dom structure of the XAML and it knows how to add, remove, update each of those elements. So if you add an entry, it only just adds that inside of it. Um, and it's not going to modify it the rest of your state of your application. So if you had an entry, you type in it, then you change something else.
It's going to stay there and it doesn't dissolve good. Basically they added a color adornments, which is really cool for colors, um, which is rad. And then this works on iOS, Android, and windows across the board. Does everything works great and it's there and I've been using it for a while and I'm super impressed by it.
It's really, really good. I'm really excited for, you know, They just, yeah, it's not officially called  2.0. But I, I was working with Maddie and I go, we got call XAML hot reload. 2.0, it's two point. Oh, it's truly like, there's like literally in the options. There's like version one, version two. And, um, no one's going to call it applied changes.
Like that's what it's that's the developer term applied changes. Um, 
Frank: [00:21:11] I, I think she sold it as a 2.0, because what I heard her say was, uh, we rewrote it from scratch and that's when I was just kind of like, Ooh, no, I was curious before now I'm a little scared, but okay. Show me what you got. 
James: [00:21:26] Luckily, there was a lot of work already done for WPF in UWP and it's bridging the gap.
So. All of them use the same exact technology, which is cool. And that's a runtime update, a framework update, and a tooling update to make it all happen. And it's exciting. So that was kind of my big one, but yeah, no, she sold it that way. And then it was funny. I was watching Dmitri's session later and he goes, You knew, it was like when we got the new, you know, apply changes Abadi may have called the XAML how real at 2.0, that's not the name of it.
And I was like, yeah, it is that day 
Frank: [00:21:54] politics politics, 
James: [00:21:56] because he do you have owner, I think now, so yeah. 
Frank: [00:22:00] It's his responsibility, you know, he's got to defend the name. It's his job. 
James: [00:22:06] It sounds great. It's like, Whoa, this is like, it's new, right? This is a new Hondas. 
Frank: [00:22:10] Yeah. And we're still on web 2.0, right. Have we advanced a 3.0 no, we're still on 2.0 
James: [00:22:15] web v-necks.
I don't know. 
Frank: [00:22:17] Oh, don't say that 
James: [00:22:20] I don't like B next 
Frank: [00:22:21] anymore. 
James: [00:22:22] Everything's a v-neck status. 
Frank: [00:22:23] Even then. I, I use it all the time and like my app planning, whenever there's a bug that I don't want to work on the next milestone. That puppy. Yeah. 
James: [00:22:31] What's your next one, 
Frank: [00:22:32] Frank. What you got? Okay. Uh, I have to do another language one because I'm a language person and I'm really debating between the two, but I got to represent, so I'm just going to represent F sharp five.
I five, this here. Yeah. So, uh, this is a nice clean up of the language. Uh, I hate to say it. Usually. I like to brag about how C sharp is always stealing F sharp features. I think I did it a little bit with the record stuff. I like, I low level, I did a level. But in this case that Sharp's getting C sharp features.
So the big one, a fan favorite is, uh, the, uh, interpolated strings where you can just put variables into strings. It's just good syntax, you know, the dollar sign, double quote kind of string thing. Hey, we had S print F all right. It's good. That's print F it's pretty powerful. And it's nice, but yeah, we were kind of stuck in the sea level days of how a string formatting should go.
So yeah, I mean, it's those little things, you know, you would think. It's nice. It's nice. I'm just going to say that. Plus, we also got, um, uh, indexing, you know, how it's a feature. I don't think you use very much, but I keep trying to force myself to use it. The crazy indexing that you can do on strings now with ranges and reverse lookups and the.dot notation.
F sharp has had a form of that. Pretty much since version 1.0, but, uh, it wasn't as full featured as the version that C-sharp got. That's maybe a bad way of saying it. It wants to be compatible because these are all dotnet languages. They need to be able to talk to each other. So they cleaned up a lot of the scenarios.
Would that stuff you may not care about? Multi-racial indexing. But it comes up in machine learning all the time and it comes up in graphics work all the time. So I actually use it a lot. And honestly, just for working with strings, it's just really nice. Cause I've, I've typed, you know, blah-blah-blah dot substring way too many times in my life.
I don't need to write that anymore. 
James: [00:24:33] Um, yeah, I like that I'll watch Phillip's session. He was going through all sorts of crazy F sharp features, which is pretty cool. I need to rewatch it, but yeah, there was a lot of good questions. I remember I was, I was watching the Twitch and the YouTube page and a lot of people were.
Seeing the session and seeing F sharp. I think for the first time I feel like, what is this thing? What is this what's going on here? And there's, I think there is a little confusion of like, you know, when you should use or learn FCR versus C-sharp and a lot of people have good, you know, compliments, like, you know, C sharp.
BB and after up, they can technically do anything in the Donna world. That's the hope and the dream. Um, we talk about C-sharp often because it's the largest developer base, but that doesn't mean that VB and F sharp don't have their great use cases. Um, and sometimes you just fall in love with the language, you know?
Oh, I can also use it for X, Y, Z, right. I think often with functional programming, we think about, um, things that are more reactive or things that are more, um, machine learning based or, um, um, data analytics. Um, it's a really good, uh, way of, of modeling that. But of course you can blend these languages together.
I think we don't talk about that enough of, Hey, like here's a great use case of using F sharp. Here's why you usually learn a little F sharp if you're a C sharp developer, right? Um, it's, it's not a battle. I. I was trying to not like censor people in the checks at the Cohmad powers, but it's not a battle, right?
Yeah. Like it's, it's it's Hey, each of these languages serve a purpose and sometimes you can blend them together and have great success. Or like, if you like one just use the one, like there's no battles, right. There's not, it's not political. Right. It's it's, it's just the language. 
Frank: [00:26:13] And it's not team sports.
It's none of that stuff. This is just engineering preferences, economics, you know, there's, there's a lot of reasons for languages and that kind of stuff. Uh, part of the reason I fell in love with.net was it's the CLR, the common language runtime. I wanted the ability to write programs in multiple languages.
Like that's simple. Like I, I saw the advantages of different languages. And I just like to promote a sharp, because I think it's one of the best programming languages ever created. Just going to put that out there and that's at version five now, so rejoice and I should also say the way the whole.net core ecosystem has come together with mano and everything.
There are no downsides to using F sharp anymore. Like it used to be that like I've sharp maybe would fall behind, or it just wouldn't be able to keep up with the runtime little things like that. But now everything's shipping together. That's kind of what I love, you know, uh, F sharp five shipped with C sharp nine everyone's in sync.
We're all hitting the same runtime. We know what's happening. And I just, I like that reliability and heed reliability right now. 
James: [00:27:22] And I like it. Right. I think you're right. One of the biggest, um, Things from today for Donna conference, we're watching it is that, you know, we had updates to visual studio for Mac.
We had updates for visual studio on windows. You know, we had dotnet releases across Mac, Linux and windows all on the same day. We got new language features for AF sharpen and C-sharp right. And VB they're like, they're all, everything is there. And like, if you actually take a step back. That's kind of a miraculous, like, that's kind of crazy to think about that.
That when we're talking about shipping visual studio, you're shipping like.net, it's like, Oh, you also shipped updates for WinForms WPF, Xamarin, you know, Mac like there's asp.net, right. Blade. Like all of these things came together in a singularity because we're dotnet developers and we, you know, we can build all these things.
I think that today is Mike. My final takeaway is like, It's all here and it's all really happening. Like this is just the first step, but to me as a Donna developer, I'm just, again, I'm super excited about everything that's sort of happening. And also, also by the way, last little tidbit here before we get Annapolis Elocon is, I don't know if you saw the, the runtime.
Did you see the runtime panel with like rich and there's two other engineers that like, are really deep on the runtime, like. 
Frank: [00:28:43] No, no I'm upset. I'm a runtime person. I love runtime stuff. Was it? It had to have been recorded. So I'll definitely just have to catch up with that. 
James: [00:28:52] It's good. And they go real deep on stuff.
So they totally lost me immediately, but they did rich did say that they are working on support for the new M one chip that we'll talk about, um, for dotnet five to run natively on it, which is. Crazy. So we'll talk about that in a bit, but first let's take a quick break and thank our amazing sponsor this week.
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Frank: [00:29:57] Thanks. Thanks fusion. And I'd love their beliefs or controls. That was the first thing I went to check out. Cause Blazer's a little anemic when it comes to controls.
So it's like, I need to meet some controls. 
James: [00:30:07] All right, Frank. So that was.net comp 2020, any final words before we get onto the Apple event, which happened two hours after the sardonic dinette comp. 
Frank: [00:30:17] I'm overloaded now. Um, it it's a big moment. I can't believe that we're only giving a half hour to.in at five, but I'm sure we're just gonna talk, got it for the rest of the year also, because it's the new hotness.
So don't worry. We'll dive deep. And I feel bad because I left off a bunch of features from F sharp, but I can't believe the two I actually chose to pick. Anyway, let's move on to the Apple stuff. It's way more fun. Cause Silicon hardware that's stuff is great and it's not. Intel, how creepy is that? 
James: [00:30:48] That's correct.
We both have an Apple DTK and I am proud to announce that my Apple DTK, the developer transition kit is officially dead. Frank. It never really, it never really had a chance to begin, but it refuses to turn on or refuses to update. I've followed all the things. I opened a ticket with Apple and I said, Apple.
Um, give me a five, my $500 back. Cause this thing does not work, but do not fear cause there's new Apple silicone here. Now we talked about this before because the Apple silicone is really exciting because Apple is creating a system on a chip for, um, laptops and desktops machines. And this has a lot of implications that we'll talk about, but Apple came out and they announced a brand new chip, which they're calling the M one.
I don't know what the M stands for. Micro Mac Mac 
Frank: [00:31:36] one. When I took it as of course, it's the Mac one, it's the first processor for the new Mac. This is a, this is super cool. Uh, to be reductive, they are putting, uh, app kit and 10 on an iPad. And it's kind of awesome. And we've been looking forward to this basically all year.
How long has it been since the analysis, whatever I've been looking forward to it for 
James: [00:31:59] awhile. Yeah, it has been, it has been about seven or eight months. I mean, we've, we've had our  for a while at this point. I mean, what is time, like you said, but. The do they announce it a dub DC, which would have been June.
That seems too soon too, Suzanne. Okay. 
Frank: [00:32:15] I dunno. No, let's not talk about time that that's a stupid subject. Uh I'm. I'm very sad that you're a bad caretaker and that you broke your DTK. Okay. I didn't do anything. 
James: [00:32:24] It just sat here, Frank. I didn't do anything. I didn't even get to test anything. I reported tons of bugs.
And then I went to you. Here's the thing is I went to go update it to the newest, big Sur and all this stuff. And then they're like refused and I didn't want to do it. And that ends up. Profiles I'm putting in recovery mode. I was like, no, no, no. And I was like, Oh, you know what, today I'm going to, I'm just going to do recovery fully, which means I have to take my Mac book from 2013 updated to the latest big Sur, which is like a big undertaking because this Mac book from seven years ago should not be running big, sir.
That's inappropriate. Um, So I update that because it has to be running the same version, install random excode beta install, some random tool that Apple has from the store that looks terrible. And then turn on the Mac into recovery mode. Plug my Mac book pro into my Mac mini. That's running the DTK and it should show up, but no, it refuses.
It, it only turns on 1% of the time. And when it does, nothing comes out of the HTMI. So I can't even see what's going on. And it just constantly like turns on the light for a minute. And then it turns off the light and then turns the light back on. I don't know. I'm puzzled. I mean, it's the DTK, I'm not representative of the final product, obviously not running the same 
Frank: [00:33:32] chips.
However I did look at their, uh, the shots because part of the announcement was not only that they make a new processor, they put computers around it also to make it easier to use that processor. And one of those I know revolutionary. And, uh, one of those metal frames, they put it in those gorgeous renders that they were doing, um, was the Mac mini.
So the Mac mini is back. That's actually the form factor we got and the D DK. And I was curious if it was going to be very different from the DTK, but at least the back panel looks pretty identical. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I don't know what kind of chip we actually got in our hardware. So it's hard to. I don't want to look at performance numbers or anything on there, but, Oh boy, did Apple want to talk about performance numbers though?
Because 
James: [00:34:22] just thinks that it's the fastest thing that you ever heard and everything else is slow and terrible. And our thing is the greatest thing since sliced bread. 
Frank: [00:34:29] They kept saying, you know, three X faster, two X, faster, 10 X faster. And, uh, I was doing my thesis defense. This is where you get in front of a bunch of teachers.
You tell them what you did, blah, blah, blah. And then they harass you for an hour. And one of the ones that always came up with is you can't say faster than. Without saying what the van is, the reference that you're referencing and they would do that. But yeah, every so often they would come up and say, uh, two times faster than the best selling PC laptop in this power class, you know, asterix, hashtag hashtag.
But, uh, it was, it was all fun. Um, just as a technologist, as an engineering person. Yes. As an Apple fan boy, but yeah. It's new tech. Um, it's a little bit scary. Because I really got into Apple. I was always, I, I looked upon it from a distance, but I really got into it when they transitioned over to Intel, because I was such a Microsoft windows person that I didn't want to give up my Microsoft windows.
And I was even a Linux person. I wanted to be able to run all that kind of stuff. And so I really got into max when they switched to Intel. So it's a little bit. Nervous for me, if I'm a little bit honest to like, are we ready? Have we grown this far to break away from Papa Intel? 
James: [00:35:50] Yeah, we'll see. It's very fascinating.
I will say that, that finally they did do this really good description that I mentioned earlier in the pot of, of a system on a chip. And I got to let me see if I can break this down, right? Okay. So in a normal PC. There is a board and chip set and things are all separate, right? There's like a, the, the CPU there's the IO.
The GPU is obviously separate, um, their security things and they're all separate. And this, this does solid. They've been built forever, but the problem that they have here is that. Is that all of those little bits all have to communicate to each other and often have to swap memory and bits around. So they're kind of copying data around, have to move it around.
And what Apple really described with their beautiful graphics of system on a chip is they said, well, what if. You know, what a system on a chip does and this architecture it takes, instead of having all of these bits that are all separated out, it brings them all cohesively into a nice coupling that they can all access the same shared data.
And like that actually, I was like, Oh, that makes sense. Like, okay, now I actually understand the core architectural difference between an SOC and like the, the x86 machines that we have today. And that sort of finally, I was like, Oh, light bulb. 
Frank: [00:37:08] Yeah. Um, nothing like a good diagram, huh? Uh, it it's, it's even better than that.
I'm sure it's good to get these things, um, on the same kind of memory bus and all that. That was a nice simplification, but with a system on chip, you're actually trying to get it all onto the same dye. Like the same Silicon. One of the big barriers in a PC is you have to go from Silicon transistors. Two gold, two bad badly soldered gold around a motherboard through a maze up the river, down the curric, into the Ram through another gold bridge, back into Silicon, and then do that round trip again.
And every time you you, you change materials. You're going to get Fluxions. These computers are running at radio frequency speeds. Two gigahertz, three gigahertz. That's. That's electromagnetic spectrum. That is you can't see that those are radio frequencies. This is not real in some ways it's not real in the period false disclosure.
So every time you hit a material transition, you have weird reflections and weird things that you have to account for. So, yeah. That is the big reason everyone's moving to consolidate. It's one of the original reasons we came up with ICS integrated circuits in the first place we recognized in order to get speed up, power up.
We can't be going across metal bridges across these like long infinitely mile, long runways. We have to get things close together, and this is in some ways a natural progression, but also a step forward because it's one of those good. Good. Big steps. Not a little step. 
James: [00:38:47] Yeah. And you know, I think, um, they really described like the benefits of it.
I think the, the fascinating part is these diagrams are so important because I flipped over to YouTube because this was one of the first times that I've seen, at least I've flipped over to YouTube and they were broadcasting on YouTube and on the Apple event page, and they had 900,000 people watching on YouTube alone.
900,000. I 
Frank: [00:39:09] did not know that these are all his creepy numbers 
James: [00:39:12] and these are all not developers. Right. So imagine you're going and talking to someone and you're like, well, why is this so important? Cause the entire event was split in to two sections  and then here's the new devices that have M one, but like for the avid consumer.
Nobody cares that it's an M one chip. Like nobody, nobody cares. Like nobody cares Frank. Like, how am I going to go to my, my dad and be like, Oh, you know what? You should really get this new Apple, because it has an M one system on a chip armed process where he's gonna be like, can I get to like Fox news or something like that?
You know what I mean? Like, like that's what he's gonna want. Right. I mean, just saying. 
Frank: [00:39:54] It's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant because think of the alternative. Imagine if Rosetta too. Wasn't good. Because then the answer is how will they know? They have an M one they'll know they have an M one when no software runs on it, because everything for Mac is compiled for Intel 64 bit.
Right now it's been that way for a long time. The brilliant move by Apple is not only did they build a high performance chip, they put the effort into software to write an emulation layer so that they could run Intel code. Uh, yeah. And I'm not even going to touch the Fox news quote. 
James: [00:40:29] Yeah. I'm just saying, you know, we have fathers and grandfathers and mothers and grandmothers.
I'm just saying, you know, I will say though, Fox news. Didn't make a very controversial call. They didn't get it wrong. So just saying, um, 
Frank: [00:40:45] well, so they were molding lots of course. Look at me. I'm just moving out. Lots of cores, James cores, everywhere. So we got a high-speed course, low speed course. These are classic things from, um, The iPad and the iPhone.
I've had these for a little while now, but we're getting these neuro engine cores and Apple again is taunting me because they keep saying that they're going to update TensorFlow, which is, you know, one of the big machine learning libraries out there. TensorFlow does not run great on max. I'm just going to put it that way.
Um, it actually runs pretty terribly on max, so yeah. I am thrilled. If Apple is truly a get intense referral running very quickly on these Macs, but I'm also a little bit nervous because they keep promising me that they're going to get TensorFlow running well on Maxim. It keeps not happening, but, uh, this is such a big change for them.
I feel like, uh, they, and it's such a showcase for them because they keep promoting this neural network engine. This, uh, core is dedicated to this. Matrix multiply. Basically. Here's all it's doing that. I think that they really are going to put the effort into it. And I'm excited for that, that they're putting so much promotional effort 
James: [00:41:54] into it.
Yeah. And they're really talking about three key aspects and one of them to the machine learning aspect of it. But the first one they talked about was universal apps. Like what does this mean for developers? Good diagrams, beautiful graphics. So like, Hey. Absolutely are compiled against x86, you know, 64 bit for Intel, you can become a universal app and you'll compile it twice into one bundle.
The person will get a credit. I was like, great description. And then they said, well, we also have the ability. Um, to run every single application, even if it hasn't been recompiled, which is Rosetta two, which is the SQL, because like use that power PC to Intel. Now we're Intel it's arm, you know, Rosetta two was going to do that.
And the funny thing is he said, there's even some applications where Rosetta two will be more performance than running like 
Frank: [00:42:45] the arm code or something. And then 
James: [00:42:47] recompiling. I was like, how does that even make any sense? I don't understand. Um, just to whatever their optimization is, is. Amazing. Right. And then finally was basically about metal.
I think that he started to talk about, which was everything is really going to be powered by metal on the GPU and these new neural engines. Like everything's going to be super fast, basically. 
Frank: [00:43:11] Yeah, it's, uh, they were really promoting metal to the point where they actually released a whole new developer video, not during WWDC times, which is usually when they release all their videos.
They released a, how to optimize for metal for this M one chip. Mm. And they walk through, uh, the little fixes they've done. The metal API is good, but the metal API is only as good as the hardware that has to execute it. And they were constrained by certain architectural decisions, certain power envelopes, all that kind of stuff.
Now they're saying, um, That this new version of metal on this chip can run desktop class versions of metal because metal is metal, but there's, you know, mobile metal and then desktop metal, you know, there there's different options. You want to set on different things. And I even noticed this in the app that I'm running right now.
I circuit 3d, uh, the. Shadows the default shadow. If I turn that on and Mac, I get these really nice, soft shadows. They're blended really lovely and all that stuff. You, as a game developer are going to love this. I go over to iOS and they're all jaggedy, you know, no filtering, just jaggedy shadows. And that is specifically a hardware feature that is missing on, uh, A lot of the iOS device implementations of metal, but they say that M one is just going to have this built in.
So this is some real power. This is some real dedication to, well, you know, trying to get us all us developers to start using the GPU, like please developers start using the GPU we've got, we're giving you eight CPU's and eight GPU's. Please write multi-threaded code, stop writing single-threaded code.
James: [00:44:56] It's true. Well, they did talk about, you know, Photoshop and Lightroom and a bunch of other applications that are going to be upgraded games, you know, that are, do all this stuff. So they're really pushing it pretty heavily. And, and, you know, I think that the M one chip is just the w was part of it. Right.
And, um, it's exciting that this is coming out and I was more surprised though that it. I mean, it's really turned into a consumer event quickly, which I think made some sense because then they focused on what does the SOC bring to not developers, but to you as the user, right? So the instant on the extreme battery life, um, they even said that the fact that these new computers use so much less power, that you are actually saving the planet by buying one of these machines, Frank, um, the kind of, it's kind of, they kind of said that.
Frank: [00:45:48] This was my argument for you giving up your plasma, James, say, save the world and just throw that thing away. But, uh, it's good, right? Don't we all want a 20 hour battery life on our devices. Like I don't charge things. I hate charging things. That's true. There is that terrible, um, coincidence that. This wonderful mobile devices coming out during a pandemic, and I'm not traveling right now.
So I'm not sure if I personally, I'm going to go and rush out to buy one of these new laptops, but I'll tell you the next laptop I get is going to be this tiny, low power thing because you had the Mac book adorable. Now this is an error. This isn't the adorable, but it doesn't look like it's too much bigger than your adorable was.
And that looked like the perfect machine, 
James: [00:46:36] the new air. So the air that was out previously was really big, but then they had the new, and that's when they got rid of the Mac book, which is what I had. And the new MacBook air was pretty much very similar to the same size as had more of the, is more distaste.
You have a taper, but besides that, it was more powerful. It was like, you know, just a little bit more expensive, had all the F you know, all the power. But you're right. And this thing's going to come out at nine 99, which is a great price point. And it's going to have, it's going to be the most powerful Mac book air since they created the Mac book, air Frank.
And, um, yeah, it might be the, it might be my next device too, because I'm, I'm really thinking like how much faster is it going to be for my 2013 MacBook pro, which is the top top end model. And you know, when you, when you buy a device and you really get the top end one, It really lasts for a long time. I'm really noticing that, like, you know, my Mac book, my backward pro 13, like it's still a powerhouse.
Right. And I'm looking here. I was looking at my processor, that's on my computer here. Um, that my buddy gave me and it's, you know, five years old, but it was when he bought it. It was the most expensive processor that you could get, you know, hundreds of hundreds of dollars. I don't know. I Jesse so nice to me and gives me his old computers and he builds them, but I was like, wow, like, At the same time that he bought this really amazing processor, I bought like the $200 processor and it's like a night and day difference.
I mean, this thing it's, it's, it's again, it's like the fastest computer I've ever had in my life. And it's a six-year-old five-year-old processor. Right. But he bought the best motherboard, which means I can upgrade it to you. You get the life out of it. So I'm really excited to see, like, what are they gonna let you spec out on that MacBook air or the Mac book?
Pro, is it a MacBook pro that there came out? Yeah. Mac book. 
Frank: [00:48:29] It is. Yeah. And I was already pricing them out because I just had to know, uh, for me, if you do the kind of standard upgrades that you want, that there's a little price downgrade. If you get one less GPU core, I think that's like a choice between seven or eight GPU cores, but there aren't that many options you get to choose the amount of Ram, but.
As far as I could tell, all the machines only went up to 16 gigs. So you're going to probably want to cap that out. Eight gigs really doesn't cut it these days. And then you're going to spend the rest of your money on a hard drive, which unfortunately I've learned when buying Apple hardware. You've got to put that money up front because he run out of hard drive really fast.
So what I found was for me to buy a computer I'd spend between 1400, 1600, depending on whether I went with the air or the pro. I do appreciate that. Um, they have proper cursor keys now. They got rid of those. You know, bad kind of cursor keys. They are like half size left and right keys, which I don't love, but it's better than those full size left and right keys that make absolutely no sense.
It has an escape key. Even the Mac book pro one has an escape key. So it looks like the keyboards are all good to go. They've learned their lessons there. So I think you're just getting a fast little machine. The biggest downside as I can see is you're not getting an Intel. But the rest is wins.
Everything else is just fine. Perfect. 
James: [00:49:53] I like about this. I don't know if they'll do it for a long time, but I really liked that the Mac book, like all three devices, they announced the amounts on Mac book, air MacBook pro, and a Mac mini and they all run. An M one chip with a core CPU, core GPU, and up to clean 
Frank: [00:50:13] it.
So as a, as a product developer, they just must be smiling. They're like, look how clean our product line is fast forward three years. There's going to be 8 billion different em chips, but for now it's nice and simple. There's the M one. It has eight ish cores. 
James: [00:50:29] It's very true. I mean, and that makes it easy. I think, as a consumer compared to an , I was like, well, no, there's, this is what you get.
Right. You go buy one iPhone, but that is what I appreciate about you buy one iPhone. It's like, they're all the same. Right. Maybe there's Ram differences, but it's pretty much the same. Um, and especially this year's right. I love the, the, the pro versus the mini, um, the max, right? Like all very, very clean. Um, I love it's very Johnny Ives, um, very clean product line.
And, you know, I think that here's the thing. They are going to eventually replace every single Intel in it, the transition they said the transition has started, but like it's pretty full on. I mean, like you can't buy a Mac book pro or a Mac book air with an Intel chip anymore. They're gone. They're gone.
Frank: [00:51:17] The only thing they didn't release was an iMac. And you know, they probably have one, they just didn't want to like replace that entire line right now. They didn't say like, we're going to have this split line of computers. We're like, no, we're transitioning. It's going to take about two years. And they said a couple of years, but I took that as two years.
I'm like, okay, two years. Okay, shots fired. Um, I don't have a problem with it. I don't use much software that is tied to Intel 64 bit. I think when we made the 32 bit to 64 bit transition, that's kind of when we lost a lot of the old fashioned software, people who weren't updating you kind of lost that.
And the fact that it's able to run Rosetta doesn't really matter. And then there's the huge benefit that we haven't even touched yet is this thing can run iOS apps. So you get access to like the largest and best app store on the planet. All those apps can run on your Mac. Now, how awesome of a machine is that?
James: [00:52:15] Yeah, it's just 
Frank: [00:52:16] it's mic drop. It's just like, Oh yeah. That awesome store that has millions of award-winning apps. 
James: [00:52:22] Although the one, they are, the one thing we didn't get was the touch screen. Frank. 
Frank: [00:52:26] I know. I, you know, he, okay. There was a great moment when Federighi like put on the romantic music and he started lifting the lid of the Mac.
It's usually their jokes don't hit, but that joke was perfect. That was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that that was going to be a teaser for the touch too, but it didn't happen. And I was so disappointed. I think I was on this, on the show and I said, ah, well, the system on a chip, you throw in the touch controller, it's tiny little piece of Silicon so that you can interpret how that screen works.
It's pretty much free. I don't know why they're not doing it. Um, I guess they don't want to crowd and confuse their product lines, but. Okay, uh, cards on the table. This event made me love the iPad even more because I've learned what I want out of a Mac. It's a big, powerful computer, so fine. If you can give me a big, powerful computer, that's great, but for the mobile stuff and all of that.
I love my iPhone and I love my iPad. I love my touch screens. I like that simplicity. And I'm not sure if I actually have a need for like a portable laptop. There's all these great ideas that run on the iPad now and all that stuff. And it's a touch screen. So I have a few mixed feelings like that, but. The Mac mini form factor and in four or five years, maybe the iMac form factor or what I'll be interested in.
James: [00:53:55] Yeah. I'm with you here. I mean, I have a surface go. I have a Mac book pro and you know, the reason I like a touch screen on, on the, on the, even the surface go, even though it's on a very powerful machine at all is am browsing. I'm browsing the web. Right. And I'm just, I'm right there and I'm scrolling up and I'm, I just want to tap on stuff really easily.
I think that Apple will do it, but I think it's going to take times their expectation is a multi-year process so that applications can upgrade. They can tweak the UI. They can make the buttons bigger when it's in touch mode, things like that. Right there, the small, tiny acts and the little thing they need to be big enough.
And they need people to optimize their app for tablet, probably first to get the drag and drop there. It's a long game. So I could see really two years from now, three years from now, what's happening. And we'll see, maybe in two to three years, we'll see it happen. Maybe it will be wrong. Um, but I I'm with you.
You know, when I think about what I use, I barely use my laptops anymore. I have two of them sitting down over here just like, I don't even want to turn them on because. I have a desktop. I'm sorry. I'm locked inside. I'm locked inside. It gets dark at four Frank and I know, um, Oh, I also bought lights for holidays and I bought a, is a really cool, I bought a power thing.
That detects when dusk happens and then turn it itself on and then turns off after four years. Amazing. Anyways, I'm locked inside all the time, right? Maybe I'll go on a walk maybe, but going to bike ride as Cola came and go outside rainy now, like give me do anything, but you know what? I like, I like my really big, powerful computer that I can literally do anything.
Like, I don't have to think about it. There's no compromises on anything. And I know a lot of people will say, well, they'll buy. Um, but buy a Mac book pro or the bias surface book two, and they'll plug it in. Right. They're great devices. Right. But at the same time, I've now lived the dream because you've lived it after you got your iPad.
I, uh, I backed pro is I hadn't had a really powerful computer. And like, when I upgraded this thing, it's got, you know, uh, um, NAND is it got the NAND flash, SSD, crazy PCIE chip on it. It's got, you know, 64 gigs of Ram. It's got like a super powerful processor. Like it's got a nine 80 X G like, it's so good.
Right. That at this point in my life, I'm not going to coffee shops and I'm not coding. Like that's the problem. Yeah, 
Frank: [00:56:17] yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah. I in, in the power computer world, I can't wait for the M four, two or whatever it will be when they have like the ridiculous 64 core version. Like that's going to be when I'm just going to be like, you know, take my money because I can't resist, but 
James: [00:56:37] I want a big, I want a big, you know, we replaced everything, replaces, computer, everything, one big iMac pro right.
Yes, big, beautiful Orenda, splice 64 core and 18 processor. Like, Ooh, now we're talking. Right. 
Frank: [00:56:52] You know, like, you know, I kept cracking me up in there, uh, demonstrations, high production value and all that, but there was some cognitive dissonance. So there was this $5,000 XDR monitor the Apple cells next to a $700 computer I'm like, so you bought the 5,000 hour monitor.
Let's spend 700 hours on that computer. Huh? Interesting. Decision-making it's true. 
James: [00:57:19] I am. Yeah, that's very true. So the Mac mini does start at $700. Mac book, uh, Mac book, air a thousand dollars MacBook pro $1,300. Yeah, I think I'm with you. I think I'm with you on the Mac book air, because it's the same processor, right?
I guess, can you get 32 gigs of Ram on the, 
Frank: [00:57:40] no, I think they all top out at 16. I kept trying, yeah. 16 is fine. 32 is where you're free though. 32 is where you don't have to worry. Any 
James: [00:57:51] 64 is better. 
Frank: [00:57:52] Ah, I'm kind of jealous there. I mean, yeah, 
James: [00:57:55] it is better. Um, well, cause if you go to the back book pro 16, it's very fascinating that they didn't go to the 16.
It's only the 13 inch, right? The 16 inch, you still get the Intel processor. So that's a little money. That's a little, not as much Johnny Ives in that one there, but if you go to the 16 inch, you can go up to 64 gigs of it. DDR four memory. 
Frank: [00:58:17] Is that what the M one 60? No, that's all right. 
James: [00:58:21] 16 inch Intel 
Frank: [00:58:22] processor.
Yeah, they must just not have the memory controller for it. To me, I'm going to build a big one 
James: [00:58:27] that you can get a $7,000 laptop. Anyways, 
Frank: [00:58:32] even these , you could easily get over two grand. If you bought the, um, the hard drive premium is real Apple keeps charging for those hard drives. So it's easy to get these prices up.
James: [00:58:43] I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I'm, if I'm in. I mean, I think I'm very fascinated that they did go all in. I think it's the right call. I am a little worried that like everybody getting a Mac book air for the holidays. Is now getting an  chip. And I'm very curious how that plays out. Like, I hope that is great because everything they're saying is great at the end of the day, but is this M one chip really?
Like, this is an early adopter chip, but like they went in, right. They they're like, there's not just one, like. You know, Microsoft, you know, they have the surface, uh, ax, which is their arm device and they have one device and they're like, we're really gonna nail it down. And really, you know, the new one's way better.
But this one, like, they're like, Hey, this is our main spec, the Mac book air that is probably the most popular selling Mac book in history. And the, put it in it. 
Frank: [00:59:36] Yeah, 
James: [00:59:37] that's impressive. 
Frank: [00:59:38] And the Mac mini is the nerds Mac. It's the Mac. When you don't want to buy a Mac, that's the one that you get. Yeah, it's definitely gutsy.
Um, I'm surprised though, you use the D D K until you destroyed it out of hatred and malice. You ran some software on there. I did. I I'm impressed at how good Rosetta is. And so, yeah. Sure. There's an engineering part of me that says there's some fatal flaw and it's not going to be exposed until I literally a million people are using this thing.
But at the same time, gosh, it seems very rock solid. And I would feel comfortable recommending one to a non-technical family members. That kind of thing, because I feel like, you know, Apple is going to support it. The software we've ourselves saved, seen runs maybe a tiny bit slow if it's going through that translation layer, but it runs 
James: [01:00:30] right.
Frank: [01:00:31] So it's up to us as app developers to port our apps to this arm 64 processor. So it's good. That dotnet five is out because that was the first official support for arm 64 on windows. Right. Uh, but as far as I know, Apple has actually contributed some open source code to help along, uh, Mano and dotnet core onto, um, Apple silken.
So hopefully we'll have that stuff up and running. So, 
James: [01:01:03] yeah, I mean, it's gonna take some time, so it's all right. I think the next few years will be an exciting transition period, but we're an exciting times. Donna five, Apple, Silicon, it's all happening and it's already basically December. Oh my goodness.
Well, thanks everyone for tuning into this week's merge conflict, you can of course go everywhere on the internet to find us at merge conflict data fam. That is a website you can go to it. W w w dot merge, conflict.fm, like, you know, like a news radio station, except for our podcast. So there's there and there's links and you can also watch his live on Twitch and my Twitch TV slash news amounts of Magna.
That's where I live code. And once a month we live stream and also Frank live streams on Friday at Twitch LTV slash Frank Krueger is way. Better than me. So you should probably just watch him instead, but that's going to do it for this week until next time. I'm James 
Frank: [01:01:51] Altimax I'm Frank river. Thanks for listening.
James: [01:01:55] Peace.