James (00:00:08):
Frank it's official. WWDC is

James (00:00:12):
Over five days. Oh my goodness. Are you still alive? Or you got a pulse going on? Like, God, are you detoxing? What's going on?

Frank (00:00:21):
Wait, does that mean that I can't just lay on the couch all day anymore and call that work. Like I really enjoyed my week of eating potato chips and watching nerdy videos on TV. Don't take that away from me. James dub, dub DC all summer. I said it here first dubbed up DC all summer.

James (00:00:37):
Well, I want to say this. Uh, Heather and I were recently talking about a conference fatigue, if you will, because right now there's so many conferences. There's so many online and there's so much content out there that I think you did it right? Because often a new conference comes out and you're trying to mesh the conference with work. At the same time, you don't really get the full enjoyment of it. Like WWDC for me every year has always been watching the keynote and watch the developer stuff go back to work. Like I've never been in person where you have full, more, fully integrated, a little bit into dub DC. And then this year, right, it was fully online and everything was available. Now, had you gone to WWDC? You probably wouldn't be working on ice circuit or Calca or other things you may be testing new features or doing other things from dub dub, but you would be there sort of watching content sessions, like you're actually there. So if you were just on your couch, eating potato chips, drinking Bodhi, then I think you did it right. That's what I'm saying.

Frank (00:01:40):
Oh, I wasn't drinking. I should have been drinking. It should have had like a game. We should have come up with some kind of bingo game every time this happened, or that happened time to take a drink. Nevermind. That's not fair enough. Um, but I blame a YouTube for this. Uh, during all the virus I've really become a YouTube addict and I really appreciate 10 to 30 minute videos are a great timeframe. Like you just, as you're getting a little bored, you're like, Oh, the video's over. Cool. What's the next one? You know, it's got like just that kind of right. Rhythm to it. And so I started out, I had honestly, not really any intentions on watching all the videos because it just never worked out for me in the past. Like you, I could only get through a few before I just got bored with all of it, which obviously is very different from the conference at the conference.

Frank (00:02:30):
You're paying a lot of money. You'd go to the darned session, go to those sessions. Yeah. You're paying for it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, but uh, I just got hooked. I just started, I started hitting favorites. Uh, it started marking your, watch the videos and it became a little gamified. Gosh, I'm so glad they didn't put like a score card on there and top ranked people and things like that. But I was like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, just pick topics and get through it all. It was fun. I liked that. Yeah, no, I, I

James (00:03:00):
Am very similar. I got, maybe I used to never watch YouTube ever. And then I fell into it like a year, year and a half ago and I pay for the YouTube premiums cause I never want to watch ads. And that was cool. Cause I always use Google play music. So it was a good combo where I sorta got it all included for free, uh, who doesn't love no ads plus a music service and all those, you know, all that good stuff that comes with it. But I'm, I agree the 10 to 15 minute episodes, maybe a random, you know, 20, 30 very randomly. And if you watch the Xamarin show, the show that I produced on channel nine, you'll notice a trend, which is a used to do 30 to 40 minute videos consistently. And now the videos are sometimes 10, often 15, rarely over 20 because that's content works. And if you look at average view time, it's consistent. It's around five to eight minutes. You know, you're not getting a lot of, uh, view time and you've got to pull people in. And I think looking at those time marks from Apple, they sort of figure that out, which is impressive seeing that they don't own YouTube. So

Frank (00:04:10):
Yeah, it wasn't perfect. I would say overall, it was fantastic, but I, well, we can talk about this part too. They paste out the videos over the days. So you kind of watch all the videos when you want it to, which was kind of annoying because you'd watch a video on Monday and they'd say, make sure to watch this video. And then you would see it's on Friday and you're like, well, guess I'm going to be on the couch all week. Not just then, but then Friday would come along and then, you know, you sat through a 30 minute video. That was okay. And then the topic you're all excited for in my case is 13 minutes. And I'm like, no, I wanted it to be a 30 minute one. It was like, who who's picking, who gets a 30 minute video?

James (00:04:52):
I didn't quite understand the rationale behind a five date virtual conference. Maybe it was because they assume that people are, you know, at work all day. So they have a few minutes here and there to watch the videos and they wanted to make it every single day to be a moment. They did an end of day highlight reel, but I don't know what you're highlighting. Cause it's just a bunch of videos at your Elise unless I'm missing something. But

Frank (00:05:19):
No. Well let me address that. I think it's actually the opposite. I think it's not fair to people's time because you know, like it would have been nice if I could have just blocked out Monday and Tuesday and watched all these videos, but they kind of forced me to space it out over the week, which I'm not a good multitasker. As soon as I start drinking that boat in watching the videos, I'm basically useless for the rest of the day. I might like do some hacking, but just on a toy project, I don't get any real work done. Um, so I kind of felt by the end of it, I would have preferred the Netflix model of just, just give me all the videos. I'm an adult. I'll figure out how to handle them.

James (00:05:58):
What would have been nice as a, they, if they would have themed the days and I've seen it build, they've done keynote themes where day one might be Azure and day two might be developer tools and day three. They go, you know, there's three days, there's three different keynotes to launch the day, but I don't believe they did that at all. And it was sort of a smattering of different videos and you're right. You're like, I'm really interested in Apple, Silicon and all right, well you get one video each day and you're like, all right, well, or just imagine you're only a TV iOS developer. And you're like, alright, I gotta trickle back every day.

Frank (00:06:33):
Yeah, yeah. But I guess, um, but this is where the, the hooky part comes in. I ended up watching a bunch of videos on technologies. I just really wasn't interested in, but all of a sudden I'm like, how could I integrate that into my app? Why yes, I do need to do better metal performance analysis. Why, why shouldn't I be doing metal performance analysis?

James (00:06:53):
That's good. So it worked, I believe that that means that they got it. They did it. They hooked you Frank.

Frank (00:06:59):
Oh, they did. We need a new name for this? It's it's just call it a video conference or a viral video conference, something like that. Oh, I didn't even mean for that PON. Nevermind. Subtract that. Delete that from the record.

James (00:07:13):
Oh, because there's a global pandemic right now happening. Is that why?

Frank (00:07:17):
But, um, bump, bump, bump. Yeah. Um, so you didn't watch any of the videos. Were you like hanging out on Twitter? Like how were you keeping, did you read all the titles of the videos and just say not for me or just no time to sit on the couch? So there's

James (00:07:36):
Two factors of this. One is I did watch the keynote. I did watch the platform developer event is what I do every single year. And often what I'll end up doing is once the first, you know, previews of Zara and stuff comes out and there's the major technologies, then I sort of go back and watch the videos. So this is what I've done at WWDC is in the past because obviously I'm not there, although they do upload them very fast, to be honest with you. Yeah. Same with bill and Google IO nowadays. Even if you're not attending, you're almost can attend virtually regardless, but I didn't watch them because it was a very frantic crazy week at work. And I just didn't have time to do it. And I figured you were going to watch some in fate and, you know, favorite the ones that you like.

James (00:08:20):
So you can send them to me and say, James, you really need to watch this. Uh, but that was the only reason why. And, and to be honest, I, I want to go back to build and watch a bunch of build videos. And you Google, I, it didn't happen this year, but it'd be the same where I probably didn't watch anything that day. And that's the, that's my sort of problem currently in the, in the conference space is I need, I would like to dedicate some time to go and attend virtual. I'm big at air quotes going on here because even I would speak at a conference, you just spoke at the wilderness conference. I don't know how that was, but you know, as far as presenting, but when you present at a conference now you just dial into a, a thing and then you present and then you're done, you know, I guess you could watch other sessions, but I don't know how that worked for you at the wilderness thing. Did you attend other conference sessions and things like that?

Frank (00:09:14):
Um, I did. I slept in a little bit so and well, you know, that's typical for me, even at real.

James (00:09:19):
No, I believe that that is no different Frank than anything ever.

Frank (00:09:23):
I would expect. I always miss the morning sessions. If you want me to come to your session, don't book it in the morning. So, um, I watched like the couple sessions before mine and then hung out till the end of the day for mine. Um, it was just a one day conference. Uh, but they had two tracks going, which was kind of complicated and fun as a presenter. I didn't mind it. Um, I think like all presenters, you kind of prefer an audience just because there's energy you get from people you liked being able to look into their faces. You get feedback. Whether, you know, the things he's saying are being understood or not. There's just so many benefits to having a live audience. I feel bad for all the late night people talking about YouTube binges. I watch all the late night shows. I never used to watch late night shows, but now that they're on YouTube, I watch all of them and I felt bad for them because it was fun watching them adapt to the medium where you're just talking into silence.

Frank (00:10:21):
And I think that was the weirdest thing when I got started in Twitch was talking, not having an audience, just talking and realizing, Oh, wait, there's no laugh track or anything. I'm just going to have to assume that joke landed. Probably didn't, but I'm just going to assume it did and go on. Yeah. You know, what was interesting though? The 20 videos would link to dub dub 19 videos. And I always got a sick feeling in my stomach when that happened, because there was such a contrast between the pacing of the videos and the content. Like they would link it to a one hour video and you're like, Oh gosh, one hour of do I really want to invest that much time into this? And then you realize it's an hour because they bring up four or five distinct of topics and things like that. And so I think what we're learning is the YouTube model of one video, one topic is just the way to go.

James (00:11:21):
Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. And you can easily embed that into documentation and link back on a specific topic, instead of saying like, Hey, a load of this video and go to a minute 25 and 34 seconds, which is, which is good too. Uh, it's a, it's a fascinating observation. And I question though, if they go back to in person next year, I assume not, but let's say they do. Do you think 20 to 2020 thing? Yeah. I mean, even Microsoft and Google and maybe Apple are, I think they all came out and said at least June through June, 2022, which is every single tech company. Really. I didn't hear that. That was, that's an effect. That's official thing. That's not an inside baseball thing. I at least know Microsoft did, but I want to assume both Google and Apple have said that I don't quote me on that, but I know Microsoft has, it's a while away through 2021. So the next possible like ignite could be 20, 21 and then the next possible build could be 20, 22. I mean, of course they could change whenever build happens. They could change whenever WDC happens, but probably not just because of how hardware and software releases that federals yeah. Schedules that seem to occur at the same pace. Uh, but I guess if they ever do an in person again, do you think that those go back to their normal cadence?

Frank (00:12:43):
Gosh, how do you, how does this not change everything to some degree? I mean, certainly you can, and maybe it'll be like a throwback thing, but maybe that'll happen in 2030. I think in the short term, of course, things are gonna change. Uh, they have to, uh, I am not supposed to get excited over pandemics, but I like change James. I like to see the world progress. So I'm excited to see how conference has changed, but I think it's honestly hard to predict, um, you, you probably know better than I do. You're, you're better at the conferences. You've attended more conferences than I think any human should be allowed to attend. So it'd be, what do you think? How will change? Oh man. Uh, that's a great question. Well, one thing that I've

James (00:13:32):
Noticed with Dominic comp is those sessions have also shortened the most recent Xamarin one a, those sessions were shortened down to 25 to 30, uh, to at 25 minutes or so, which was good. And those could shorten down even more, probably to 20. It depends how much Q and a you want to try to do. The, the thing that I always have found is unless you're very, very strict on the timing often, there's no time for Q and a. So even trying to factor in a Q and a time, it doesn't make a lot of sense, especially virtually it's just so hard. I was in some of the build sessions and there's just so many questions happening so fast. It, you can't even comprehend it. So I believe that going forward, I would continue to see this trend towards shorter sessions. And in fact, if you've attended, build in person last year or the years before you've seen this trend occur, there are theater sessions, which are 15 minute sessions and most of the sessions or trimmed down to 30 or 45 minutes, unless it's a major keynote.

James (00:14:41):
So I believe Microsoft has already been thinking about this, of trying to maximize the number of sessions and go beyond sessions, think of interactions and engagement and in workshops and labs in person. So that is the value. I think Microsoft, at least from inside baseball of me attending and presenting at conferences, it feels as though we've attempted to think of, Hey, this is a James line. This is an official line. But like from my seeing right, of, of being involved with build has been, Hey, you know, people can get these videos online afterwards. What are the experiences like? Well, the experiences of being able to engage with the speakers, you have to do workshops and virtual labs and, and, uh, you know, meet, you know, for one on one sessions and do things like that seem to be more of the engagement that in-person conferences are going for.

James (00:15:36):
So I think if you're going to be throwing a conference and there's different levels right. Of conference, like if we had another Don at fringe and it was one track in person, I would go to that because I don't know, that was always a cool little get together with all of our dotnet friends. So that is cool. But for virtual, I see them, you know, I see them fitting into, um, I see them fitting into similar formulas. I can, I can, I can see either way of going all, all on demand or not on demand. I enjoyed that. We didn't dot net comp because it was for all intents and purposes. I'm just one continuous stream of content that you could put on in the background. But there were, instead of it just being like, here's a speaker, here's a speaker, here's a speaker there's a little bit back and forth and some Twitter comments.

James (00:16:26):
So there was some engagement and I did, I've always appreciated that about.net confidently, the marketing team that have put that together, uh, and thought about some different ideas of engagement have been unique. So to me, you, you want to just not have another conference you want to have conference that makes you feel like you're part of it a little bit and can generate a little bit of buzz too. So that was my long spiel. Frank, I don't know. I have no idea. I think that any, anything will probably work and if it's good content, people will come. I think that's probably what it is, but who knows at the end of the day.

Frank (00:17:00):
Yeah. Just while, while you were talking, I was daydreaming and I was thinking, uh, I just kind of want conferences to be yeah. A little more human. So we've, we now know how a virtual conference can function. We know how to do kind of efficient data dumps on people. I don't think we're ever going to get below a 10 minute video. I don't want to see a five minute programming video. That will be scary. So I'm hoping we're getting to the bottom of how quickly you can data dump. Uh, so I, I'm curious if you'll see, uh, like you were saying more labs or, uh, things like that. I never attend labs in conferences. I'm always intrigued by them, but labs would always take up like half the day or something. And I'm just like, I, I don't do commitment. It's not in my vocabulary. So I'm just like, Nope, not doing it lab. So I'm wondering if like, maybe could get like cool one hour labs and things like that. Just make it more personal. So it's like, you're not watching a YouTube video right now. You're actually, uh, you're at a conference where we can actually talk to each other. It's going to be a unique, unique thing.

James (00:18:01):
Yeah. They, and they did those WDC. One-on-ones, I've done that at Google IO before I've done a good, and those are cool. I've done that with Google IO. I went, did a design review with someone from the material. I think I was before material design from foremost, someone from somebody at the design team at Google, they, they reviewed my app and they gave me tips and pointers. I was like, that's awesome.

Frank (00:18:25):
Yeah. Cool. That's something I didn't take advantage at WBC is they actually did have those labs, but, um, yeah, I just, you know, I have a million questions. I would love to ask Apple engineers. I just was worried I was going to get staged fry. I wouldn't sure. Knowing what topic do I even say? I want to talk about, I'm like, Hey, I want to talk about everything. Could you bring me an engineer that knows everything? Um, so I didn't do any of the labs, but um, I'm kind of kicking myself a little bit. I should have done at least one or two. I think there was also, there's a limit there because it was a one-on-one with an Apple engineer and that kind of stinks. I would almost rather see like a little dynamic unconference thing happened where a bunch of people say, Hey, I would like to do a one on one with an engineer on this topic.

Frank (00:19:14):
And then they do a live show or something where they actually do audience engagement and things like that. Um, but that's asking a lot. I just, the one on ones I just think are just terribly efficient, efficient in this day and age. I don't see the point. Yeah. As an Apple developer, as a part of your $99 a year, you get like one or two support requests to Apple. Anytime you face a hard problem, you can email them and the required by contract to reply to you in some form or another. Um, but you know, it also made me appreciate, um, what I call the more talk show elements of the Microsoft, uh, built conference, I think is the one I'm thinking of. And, uh, it was fun. That was, that was good with all breaks. You know, I liked the YouTube model of, I could just pick which video to watch next, but I wouldn't have minded some kind of little live commentary thing. And I know, like you said, they did the wrap-ups, but I never watched the wrap ups because it just seemed weird. I guess it's tough to go between the pick, your poison kind of video service to the we're going to guide you through the day kind of thing.

James (00:20:25):
Mm. Yeah. It would have been fascinating to see how that would've worked, because it couldn't have just put out a bunch of videos at once or they could have done some and then like, here's a few that are gonna be in a stream that can be on demand afterwards. But then again, you're like, okay, well we're already holding a bunch of these videos and you know, it is, it is very, I think, yeah, any virtual conference regardless how big or how small is complicated. And I give a lot of credit to everyone that's done it. Uh, and, and, uh, as I've attended many, and I've enjoyed all of my time, that's what the thing is. I've enjoyed all of them that I've gone to. Some of them I've been able to attend for longer. Some of them not as long as I would have liked, but yeah, that's sort of what I say, congratulations to Apple, to Microsoft, to, to every other conference that I've attended or will attend in the future because it's not, it's not easy to pull off an in person or virtual conference is quite impressive.

Frank (00:21:23):
That's fair. You always think it's like, Oh, all you gotta do is book a space and get some speakers and then you're done. And you're like, Oh, no. Um, well speaking of which, you know, what also I really got intuned with was conference apps. I know this is a beloved topic for you. And it really made me appreciate good apps versus bad apps. And I mean, that all that I'm using the dub dub DC app, but wow. It works differently on different platforms. So, uh, I think the iOS one was the best version of it. It had some interesting features, James, like while you're watching the show, it could show you the slides in real time and the code snippets and copy code snippets to the clipboard, very fancy kind of feature like that. Um, but where then you have the Apple TV version, which is a grid view of every single video.

Frank (00:22:21):
It was like, this is useless. Just like it's not even alphabetical order. It's not a hundred percent in order of the release date of the videos. It's absolutely maddening finding a stupid video on it. And it technically has a search input, but who wants to use search? I don't want to use search. So it really taught me like, um, yeah, if, if you're gonna make a virtual conference these days, I think you have to have, I think you have to have a better platform than zoom. Like I think maybe we're going to start seeing some better conference apps now

James (00:22:55):
That wouldn't be nice. Uh, I am a very large fan of it. And in fact, I like that, uh, Apple put it inside of the developer app. They have a developer app that has a bunch of other stuff in there. There's an account. So it was, it was more than just WWDC in there. You could browse, you could download stuff and you can discover things. I'm sure they can use this in the future for news and other shenanigans happening in the developer world, which I like, because often you downloaded a conference application and as soon as the conference is over, it's gone. So I would say that that would be nice if there is yeah. More things in it. Uh, Oh, that's cool that they did that. And it also makes sense that the TV version is pretty different because you're not really gonna copy and paste that into your, your ID anytime soon.

James (00:23:44):
But I mean, they took some time and thought about the consumption model between the different devices. And I wonder what the, you know, watch over us equivalent that there was a watch app, or if there was an iPad, the iPad one was a lot different. Or, or if there was a Mac application, like ideally there'd be a Mac application with catalysts that they could do. And how would that be spiced up in some way? That'd be cool. I love when I love when apps use the new features that are announced at the conference now that's cool.

Frank (00:24:15):
Oh yeah. That's that's elite level. I don't think they were pulling that one off. Yeah, but it made me think about like the new HBO max. Like they're like here we have 8 million videos and here's a giant grid view of 8 million videos. Good luck. I just feel like this virus is teaching us. We need more media organization. This is intolerable to find what we want. I demand a better user interfaces tapes.

James (00:24:42):
I agree. Well, there are many ways for us to create unique user interfaces now for all of Apple platforms. And, uh, even though WWDC is over our journey, Frank has just began because both of us are receiving developer transition kits. I mentioned it on the first pod last week, but Frank congratulations. Welcome to the D T K club.

Frank (00:25:07):
Thank you, James. I would admit I was terribly envious and jealous. I actually don't know the difference between those two words. So I was both. It was it's inclusive or have you, um, but yes, thank you. I'm a part of the club. I will not make a big deal out of it. I've already had a celebration, invited all my friends over, just kidding quarantine joke. Um, I'm excited though. Uh, I have a lot of Mac and a lot of iOS apps and I have questions like, are the x86 versions gonna run well on this? Well, did we even say what a D DK is? Maybe we should define it, but, um, are my apps going to run well on it basically is the question I want to know.

James (00:25:45):
Yeah. DTK is the, uh, Apple developer transition kit and what this is, is a app Apple Mac mini with the arm, or as we like to call it, Apple, Silicon built right in for us to use. And it's running early versions of a big Sur Mac iOS 11, and it is early versions of early Silicon. And what the DTK is, is it's a program that anyone could register for as long as you're an Apple developer. And you didn't necessarily have to have a Mac app because the idea of it is that you can run your iOS apps also on there, which is cooler, do it with catalyst either or so there's many ways to do it, but there was a section. If you had an app, it didn't say what platform or did it say app, as far as I remember. And I did put in my stream counter very popular app, not as quite as many downloads as all of your apps, but I got approved right away, which is cool.

James (00:26:46):
And it is a program in which you give Apple $500, just, you know, you just give it to them. They said, we'll call that a payment, but we're just, we're just giving it to a partner system with cash. We just give them the money and what they do in return. Very nice of them is they, they agree to, uh, to either they give you the privilege to loan from the gift, the privilege to loan you this piece of hardware for a set amount of time. But at any time they can ask it back and you must return it within 30 days, or they reserve the rights of banning your entire account, which is in the terms, this is on the internet, which we talked about last week. So Frank, before the pod was like, what can we talk about? Well, we can not. I was like, well, we don't have it so we can talk about whatever we want.

Frank (00:27:37):
Technically. Yeah. I'm so scared when Apple says something like deactivate your account. I'm like, yeah, but I make my living off that account. Like, that's true. That's bad. You're not allowed to deactivate that Apple. Even if I screw up the shipping, like what if I screw up the shipping label? I'm absentminded James. I make mistakes all the time, either way. Um, I'm super excited about this. Uh, not just because it's a fancy new, shiny piece of hardware, but every year I ruined my Mac by installing the beta operating system on my dev machine. And this means, Oh, thank goodness. This year, I'm going to have an extra Mac around where I'm actually going to be able to just have two computers and I can leave my dev machine alone. So, Ooh, that is making the beta summers so much easier. Um, an extra Mac

James (00:28:24):
I'm legit. I'm legit excited for it because my main Mac is a 2013. I do not believe that that upgrades to Macko 11 from my understanding. So this would be the only way for me to test it because my Mac book adorable, which would be viable, I assume to upgrade is in quarantine on campus. So I cannot get to it. So this is my only way. Thank you, Apple for letting me give you $500 for me to test this. And before I say that, it may seem crazy to think like, Hey, we're just giving Apple $500 and I want to, I want to at least tell you my thoughts here. And you can tell me your thoughts. Cause I tweeted about this. Uh, and a few people were, were participating. They had participated in the power PC to Intel transition many, many moons ago. And they said that there was a very similar program.

James (00:29:16):
And back in the day, at least if you like gave Apple bug reports and participated in used it and send it back to them, they sent you hardware. They sent you just new hardware that you could have forever. So that, I don't know if they're going to do that again or give you a credit, uh, or just keep your $500. Those, those are all viable things, but I do plan on using it, testing it and hopefully providing valuable feedback, not only for the iOS, but for my applications that are both written in a UI kit and, um, app kit, technically, and also, um, maybe I'll try out some, just, you know, X codes with D Y tests. It was on my bucket list for last year. If you remember for my holiday hacks. So maybe this again will be a good way of testing on all the new X code stuff that I won't actually get to try. So,

Frank (00:30:13):
Wow. I'm just blowing my mind, how you ended there, but I'm going to go back to some of the things you said in the early beginning,

James (00:30:21):
Pura adorable is under quarantine. That's so sad. I didn't know. I didn't know. You've been separated. Oh yeah. How's it making it without you? I don't know. I assume it's still there. Uh, I assume, let me actually, it's not even on fine mine, so I don't even know. Oh, good. The poor little thing has lost power. Gosh, how you treat your competitors even even worse. That's on a different Apple developer. That's on a different Apple ID than any of my personal devices. So you don't love it. You just don't love it. I guess I can. Oh, you know what I'll do is on my test iOS device, I will log in with my, my Zamer and account and then see if that works. It's actually like the Xamarin account that I create my Apple ID. Maybe that's what it is. I can find it. I also have a surface book, two 15 inch that's in quarantine, just sitting there and so many monkeys in quarantine on the campus and the surface duo service duo, just sitting there and quarantine can't get to it. Oh, for real. Yeah, just sitting there. Hmm. Wow. You're rich and quarantine devices. No, I mean, these are all devices that I do not personally own. There are corporate corporate machines. Let me make that clear. Speaking of which,

Frank (00:31:33):
Which we will not own, we are just being allowed to lend, just borrow it. Um, I think it's a best case scenario is what you mentioned about the old dev kits turning into magical new hardware at a $500 price point. I'm not too optimistic that we're going to get anything. I think Apple's a hundred percent within their rights to give us absolutely nothing in the end. Um, maybe second best case is just give us a store credit for whatever, uh, crazy device you come out with. But it is funny how this is all a blast from the past. Listening to those old developers that went through the, uh, previous transition, the big previous from power PC to Intel. Like we've seen that it's called Rosetta two and a universal libraries too. And it also turns out, uh, the hardware ID they're using for these devices is just one increment higher than what they did for the previous transition.

Frank (00:32:29):
So it's kind of, it's kind of retro, it's kind of fun. It kind of makes me hope. There's a bunch of like 50 and 60 year old engineers, like running the show the right. Well, this is how we did it last time. Let's do it this way. I think that'd be super awesome, but it's probably not. It's probably a bunch of kids out of college, but um, either way, I'm super excited. You brought up the running iOS apps on the macro S and that's the one that really blows my mind. Um, because catalyst is one thing I can see recompiling, UI kit, all that kind of snazzy stuff, but just grab any old iOS app off the app store and it run it. I I'm just going to grab every app I can and see how they run because I have a morbid curiosity about how they operate. I'm sure my apps will be fine.

James (00:33:22):
I hope that there's a way to take my existing, you know, as long as I install my certs on it taken an existing app, you know, create the executable and just like, install it, run it. You know, I don't know if I'll be able to run it from obviously, obviously not from visual studio, but even go, I don't, I don't know if I'll be able to go into X code and hit a five and see, you know, a UI kit app running, but it would be really cool to take my final, uh, HIPAA, uh, and inside there's a.app and just run that.app directly on the arm, Mac, the Apple Silicon, if you will. Uh, I think that would be Nieto. I don't know how it's gonna work, but I, I I'm blown away, uh, because if I don't have to do any work, then I'm very, I'm a happy, happy, a happy camper over here. If I have to do a little work, then, then I don't know what that work will be. So I really want to try it out. That's what I'm saying.

Frank (00:34:18):
Yeah. Um, I, it's so interesting. Um, so going back to running random IPAs on the computer, I don't have the highest hopes. I'm sure some hacker out there will make it work, but, um, I have a feeling that everyone that receives is a dev kit is going to be doing a bunch of summer updates to all their iOS apps, because they're going to see it run on this computer. And they were like, that's not good enough. And I think the biggest change is going to be what Apple was saying for catalysts support to make an app feel good on Mac, you need to adopt iPad features essentially. So I think what's going to happen is ideally a bunch of apps that are iPhone apps will become iPad apps and by transition Mac apps. I think that that's what Apple wants and I know it's going to work on me. So their, their plan is fine by my terms.

James (00:35:14):
Well, Apple has a good advantage here with these Apple Silicon, because how do we test our iOS applications today, Frank?

Frank (00:35:27):
Oh, well, I have a bunch of test devices that I've kept around for years and try to keep running over the ages. And then I want more than just me testing. I do test flight.

James (00:35:41):
Okay. You went too far, you go into visual city or X code and you hit a five and a simulator pops up on your computer and you're right. There you go. 90% of the time. That's how I do it. Okay. So, so we know that that's how that pops up. And we know that iOS applications at this point will expand in contrast to length and width and height and width, I should say length and with height and width of a screen, because we run on that series of devices that you've said, right, you run it on iPhone five, eight, seven X. Uh, and, and we know that that scaling technology should also apply here pretty well. And the advantage is that we test all of our applications for both Android two on Android emulators, but on iOS simulators is we test them on, on the metal and we test them with mice and keyboards. So guess what? They probably work halfway decent already with mice and keyboard. You know what I mean?

Frank (00:36:46):
I've been saying that forever, everyone signed about why make sure we have good point are supporting your apps. I'm like, how do you develop apps? All I use is a mouse. Uh, the only power that comes up is the multi-touch. The multi-touch gestures are kind of terrible in the simulator and they really haven't changed since iOS two, when they first came out, it still hold the alt key, move the mouse, hold shift, move it more accidentally, hit the wrong button and start all over again. It's kind of, I kinda hate it. Um, but I think that's why we don't work getting touchscreen max, because no one can do the multi gesture support. It's too impossible.

James (00:37:23):
So good with wine. In fact, you may have to think about, uh, how you structure your UI kit app on a Mac, because if it has crazy gestures and a bunch of other things, it's not super realistic, a good example is this is maybe don't have only swipe to delete as an option. Maybe have that good old edit button in the top, right? Everyone loves a good edit button because that will put it into an edit mode. So you don't have to swipe to delete swipe, to delete swipe, to delete. You know what I mean? So some, some ideas there will be good and I'm really fascinated because there are a lot of features like long pressing and a bunch of other things and forced touch gestures that I'm going to be very fascinated to see how those come over. Because again, the Mac that we're going to be getting Frank doesn't have a keyboard, doesn't have a monitor. It doesn't have a mouse. It is a box.

James (00:38:23):
Do you have a Thunderbolt monitor? I hope it has HTMI. I hope it has. I hope it has. HTMI uh, that is a good question. I do have a nice Dell high-end two K monitor that all sorts of different inputs. I'm sure I can get it converted to something to something, but here's the thing you, I just described your worst nightmare, which is that while Frank, it is very, very true that many Mac machines have a screen attached to them, then may get a touch screen in the future. There are many, many, many Macs, including the one that you're recording this podcast on the dump.

Frank (00:38:58):
Hm Hm. Making me sad. You know what I keep thinking about though, through all of this is will Mac users be able to rate your app and leave reviews? What if you have an amazing iOS app, but Oh, whatever. It's a little trashy on Mac iOS now, big pink elephant in the room. The Mac app store is significantly orders of magnitude smaller than the mobile app store. Um, but it's still a force. It's not small. I still am able to make a living off of it. So, um, I'm really curious, uh, how the, if the reviews will get split between Mac store and iOS store, or are they all just gonna merge? Ooh, little nervous now

James (00:39:43):
Question, because today you have, I circuit on iOS and Android and those are two, sorry, iOS you'd have it on Android too. And P and Mac, and those are three different reviews. Like your Mac reviews are not the same as, as I iOS.

Frank (00:39:57):
Right. But let's say hypothetically, I were to bring an IDE over to the Mac. Um, would it all of a sudden start getting Mac purchasers and people saying, Oh, I don't like how this app app operates because it's not Mackey enough. So I know for myself, yeah.

James (00:40:13):
You decided to opt out, right. Because you're like, Oh, because your op everything's opt in. What if you have to opt out because guess what? The ID opt out, opt out. There's a big banner opt out. You're in by default, right? There's a big banner on developer.apple.com that says when you log in, it says like, we're going to make all of your applications available on the map available. Yeah. May the force be with you because it's happening. So I'm going to have to put in my two factor auth code. That's right.

Frank (00:40:49):
Isn't it like for a year, as we've been talking about windows has gone through this stage with UWP and learning to run on the next box and phone and on the desktop. But it's really happening, James, like mobile and desktop are merging. Literally just mobile apps are becoming desktop apps now. So it's, it's, I think it's a good world to be in I'm I'm excited for this insane future that we're creating of YouTube videos and armed processors. Yeah. There's a 77, 77% scale. That's what they do to catalyst apps. So you take an iOS app and you scale it to 77%. That's what it's going to look like on Mac. So everyone, if you don't have a, DTK go scale your app to 77% because see how it looks or,

James (00:41:34):
And you should be able to do that inside of the iOS simulator, you can set a specific scale. I'm fairly positive. Uh, I, and then obviously with no, uh, no, no. Uh, what's that the cutout at the top of your device, the thingy bezel, bevel bezel, well, you don't have a phone right now. So the basil the, uh, the notch, the notch in there, I was gonna throw that in. People can look at your Twitter later, but, uh, in fact, both Frank, we have, we both have the perfect devices to test us on because I have an iPhone and a C and you have an iPhone five, which became the first iPhone se and iPhone se two. And neither of those have the nacho basically by us going back in time via you losing a device. And by me switching to all Apple products or my entire household, we have officially become the perfect beta testers for Apple Silicon.

James (00:42:30):
No wonder Apple picked us. Wow, that's crazy. I think it was just a lottery, you know, fun. It's got lucky, funny part. I'll tell you this by Apple awarding me the privilege and opportunity to receive a DTK for lease. I did give them not only $500. I gave them another $400 for an Apple iPhone se as I attempt to see if I like it any better than Android, here's my review. Uh, it feels like an iPhone. That's coming from the guy where we did a whole podcast about getting dumb phones. So I'm actually taking that as a bit of an insult. He should be like, wow, this is an iPhone, you know, here. Here's my, here's my, uh, here's meth. Okay. Here's my, okay. We're done with the DTK. I want to do one more thing about the DTK before I go here. Here is the fun part about the DTK is some people think about Don net and think about the desktop and how many different ways there are to like build a desktop application.

James (00:43:30):
There are now at, from Apple, right? Four ways of doing it for Apple, Silicon it's advocate, UI kit, UI kit, plus catalyst or Swift UI. Now, if you only do UI kit, you don't get four, four for the record. That's four, four, four of them. Now, if you do UI kit, you don't get Intel max. But if you do any of the other ones, you do get them. But if you don't do UI K, you don't get iOS or iPad or potentially TBOs. But also like if you don't do Swift UI, which is the only one that goes everywhere. So it's quite fascinating, the, the grid, and we'll put a link to Daria Rubik, uh, his Twitter account into this awesome, uh, bar chart. It is boxes in a box, which is great. Yeah. And we've got box charts. I love boxers. You can just cut out Swift UI. And it would basically Xamarin forms in the bottom of it, which is kind of funny. But yeah, I love to make fun of Microsoft and their UI

Frank (00:44:32):
API APIs, because to me it's always just win 32. That's the one, that's the user interface library for Microsoft. You can wrap it in a little thing called WinForms that people seem to like, but that's fine. It's still just wind 32. Uh, but then we got when our T and then we got UWP WPN w yeah, I totally skipped WPS. I literally worked on that one and I skipped it. Wonderful. And so I would add silver light. We could throw in why not? Um, but if we're just counting, living ones, it's WPF, UWP WinForms, and Apple is up to roughly the same three or four, where they're finally getting their giant cross-platform one, which is going to be Swift UI. It looks like Swifty wise is going to be the one that covers all just like we have Xamarin forms, covering all the, all the platforms. Yeah.

James (00:45:26):
What the, what doesn't it run on that runs everywhere. Yeah. It kinda kind of crazy. It's it's very cool. Uh, yeah,

Frank (00:45:32):
Plus it's a pretty graph, like out of all the box charts, this one uses all the little iOS features. So I approve of it.

James (00:45:39):
I do, I like this one quite a bit. It looks like it belongs in an iPhone. Like if there were, if there was, if there was a chart that, that Apple was putting in the settings menu, that's what it would look like in a good app. I'd be proud if I made a UI that looked like it reminds me of the app store kind of it's got the, the bubbles, like the, you know, today kind of like, I don't know, a bunch of things. Yeah. Here's my one problem with the iOS. Okay. With the audio it's, it's, uh, you know, there's, it's very, two-tone, it's either very white or very, very black and night or dark mode, you know, compared to Android. Cause I have a lot of the, I are the Google apps on here. They're a little bit more tones of gray tones of white tones of black, which I appreciate, like I open settings and it's just like, you know, in your face.

James (00:46:33):
Uh, and I know most people probably just run everything in dark mode, but, um, you know, I just, I think that there's a little bit more shadows and contrast and things going on compared to, you know, I opened a by message and it's a table view. Like it's, I mean, no shade on IMS age, but everyone touts, IMS does, this is the most holiest amazing thing in the entire world. And sure, now I have a blue bubble, but besides that, I mean, it's, it's it's table view, Frank. I mean, now I know it's a collection view now, but like it is a table. In fact, it may still be a table view. I don't actually know.

Frank (00:47:12):
I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is. I mean, why wouldn't it be? Um, yeah, I had changed. I am so over iOS seven, um, I am just, I'm looking at, I I'm not into material. I think it's a little ugly, but, um, I'm definitely looking around like, you know, I was into the Neo morphism. I'm still into it because at least it adds some texture, you know, something to the stupid UI. I mean, we're pushing all these pixels that screen doesn't care if it's a white pixel or a gray pixel power wise or anything. So make the stupid thing pretty. I am really over the web design aesthetic now that said the all white, everywhere has moved into Mac. And if you want to hear people upset, because if there's one thing we love on Mac, it's our great gradients. Everything should be a great gradient. Oh, I agree. So like bringing all that white on over, it's just like, Oh gosh, darn it. You know, uh, it's a little windows. Um, which one did I want to make fun of? They're probably windows say, okay.

James (00:48:16):
I think Metro design had a little bit more flavor to it. Cause there was at least different accent themes and colors to it. But I mean, I'm in the, I'm in the, in the contacts application. Can you even call this an application? I mean, how do you even favorite something? I mean, everything's very disconnected. I mean, there are, there are certain things I'm surprised that people are able to figure out how to use this device. I mean, that being sound, no, that's just moving. That's just, you get used to one way. So the other way is dumb, you know, that's, that's simple. Yeah. I'll get used to it, but it's surprising because I'm like, when I go into my Android phone, I go into contacts or the dialer it's beautiful faces. Like, it's like, Oh, you know what I mean? And I'm like, well, how do I favor someone impossible? Um, you know it, yeah. I was watching,

Frank (00:49:03):
I was watching one of those dub dub videos and yeah, the aesthetic is definitely, um, abide by our very simple rules. Keep your UIs kind of plain. Um, it used to be add little bits of flare, but even they seem to be putting that down. Uh, one of the engineers said something I just thought was so fascinating and I'm gonna co completely misquoted here, but it's going to be approximate. And it said something like apps distinguish themselves by interactions, not by interfaces. And I was like, ah, okay. So I think he's saying that it's the structure of your app. Um, the way you present the data, not so much, you know, making your table view, have a cool linen background so much as it is design it to put the right information in the right spot so that users can accomplish tasks. So it's a little unfortunate that you're not able to accomplish your task of favoriting. Someone that said, uh, I've been using iOS for years. I have no idea what you're talking about. Favoriting someone I've never felt the need to do it. So I'm just like, uh, I guess that's an Android thing

James (00:50:07):
I want to, I want to call you. I don't want you to put you, put you in my favorites and then I will call you. Oh, Oh no. Yeah. I don't do that. No, it's the first tab. And yet it's not the one select date. Cause contacts is selected when I go into the phone and it doesn't make any sense. Uh it's it's amazing. It's called James. That's how that, I mean, you know, I turned off Siri immediately, so there's that I have Google assistant turned off too, so don't worry. But I mean, I, I decided to give it a, give it a test here of going all in and I wrote a blog post on this and John Dick welcome me to the iOS family. But you know, I think I'm still an Android diehard. Uh, I definitely enjoy Android. I do enjoy this phone.

James (00:50:46):
I think this phone is really nicely designed. I know it's an iPhone eight, but it, it also, uh, I'm kind kinda over huge phones. So this is a very nice relief because it's nice and small. And the reason I'm over small or big phones I should say is, cause I have a pixel two XL it's ginormous is really big in my pocket. It's heavier. And also it doesn't really fit very well in my DGI drone controller. That's a red, red flag. Yeah. A whole new constraint on your life. Can I fly my drone with this? Yeah. It comes up now. It's an important topic to think about. Did you see my drone video of the car driving through the forest? Yes, I did. Remember you sent it to my Android phone. I compressed down to like pixels, but now if you send it to me again, it would be full resolution. That's actually the one feature is I message is like the reason to basically own if all your friends have iPhones and videos and videos and photos. Yeah. I'm a mess. Yeah.

James (00:51:44):
But whatever, it's fine. I will say this. I will say this really quick on it and I'll shut up about it. But I have enjoyed basically installing all my Google apps that I enjoy and love. Like I have photos, Google, wifi. I got my Google voice that I need. I have my Google play music, my YouTube, they don't quite work as well as Android. Like for example, in YouTube, if you are watching a video and you hit the home button on Android, it will do a picture and picture. And I know that's coming in iOS 14, but it doesn't exist today. I just continue to play in the background. That was a political thing, James, like they disabled the feature because Google wanted to make Android special. They even disabled on the web where like picture and picture is by default how videos work on iOS.

James (00:52:33):
So that was Google and Apple traditionally not getting along. Yeah. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Yeah. But, but beyond that, I do enjoy some things that are built in like the health application. Like I don't have to give Google all my health data. Like I don't want to do, I don't have to give Google all my credit cards and you know, I don't have to, you know, give Google my precise location all the time. Like I feel a little bit more secure in that regard, but that being said, you know, Heather keeps asks me, how do you like your iPhone? How do you like your iPhone? I'm like, it's a phone. Like it's, you know, I'm not a phone power user anymore. So I have one screen of apps and that's it. It's the home screen. It has all the apps that I ever need on it. On the second screen is a bunch of folders with a bunch of junk in it that I can't on install like authenticators things that I need very rare randomly, but I have everything on one page. Here's my biggest gripe. So far very

Frank (00:53:26):
Upset about it. There's no way to easily alphabetize your applications. You've got to drag and drop all those little pieces around, you know, how long that you go in and out of folders. And you're like dragging too long here and it swipes you to this screen and that screen, you're like, Oh my go, Oh my goodness. How does anyone use this thing? They don't reorganize them by name. That's what they do. So what is it? A card catalog or a phone James. I want everything in alphabetical order so I can see, you know, I like to where's my Gmail at it's right there. Perfect. Done. I literally searched for everything. You pull down from the top and put the first letter of the app you want. Or the Siri auto suggested app thing is so scarily good. These days that I pulled down from the top of the screen and the app I want is almost always in that maybe I should turn Siri on.

Frank (00:54:16):
I have it off right now. I'm almost to the point where I'm going for an empty home screen. That's how crazy I'm getting with mine. Especially now that I've knocked myself down to an iPhone five, I might actually go for the icon less home screen. I'm glad you went back in time with me, Frank. I really appreciate, I mean, I do have pretty awesome processor in this phone and super flies and really, really fast. But uh, how are those, how are those apps feeling on that iPhone five they're Frank slow, slow on it. Everything has a little bit of like, um, but that said, uh, these are amazing devices. You know, I, because I'm an app developer. I can, I convince myself that it's okay to buy a new phone every year. And so I don't honestly spend much time with each phone and it's just nice to see that.

Frank (00:55:03):
Yeah, apps are a tiny bit slow, but that's just because I've gotten used to this like four core gigahertz processor on the iPhone 11. Um, but what wonderful little devices and this little iPhone five James is so light. So I'm totally happy to be a hipster all the way up until October when I can get my iPhone that has LIDAR and I can three D scan the world cause Oh my God, I'm doing that. Ooh. Yes. I saw some cool tweets of some LIDAR demos and looks pretty cool. Yeah. I'm definitely breaking down and buying a phone this year. I wasn't going to that. That's the benefit of losing your phone is that you get to buy new phones. That's true. If people didn't know Frank lost his phone in the water perhaps or somewhere else, it's a mystery so much that the location that find my phone says is not a location at all at someone's backyard. Now of course it could just be maybe, you know, it fell out of your kayak and it just swam because it's IP 68 graded it just swam over to the beach and I'm hoping, yeah, the little vibration mode, it just kinda jiggled its way over to the beach Turner jiggle mode and just went, I'm hoping like a bald Eagle was so attracted to its shiny glittery, Venus. It just swooped down and grabbed

James (00:56:24):
It, brought it to its nest. The little baby Eagles are worshiping it as a God. It'll be wonderful. That's great. I tried to call it earlier. No one picked up. Well you did the first time from your watch, but that was about it. Yeah. Uh, technology is so integrated. We can't even call the phone cause it just goes to my watch. How hilarious is that? Uh, I am sorry. Uh, Frank, that, that did happen. It's fine. I'm just going to take a little moment since we're at minute 56 here and might as well, a little PSA to everyone. Uh, when you buy a very expensive phone, do the cost analysis for AppleCare plus because I believe that they will do something for you. If you're an idiot like me and allow a bald Eagle to steal your phone from you. I believe that I believe it will give you a brand new phone.

James (00:57:10):
Frank. That is what they'll do. Don't rub it in James Apple care out there. Look it up. Be smarter than Frank. So it was very expensive for this phone. Like the more expensive the phone, the more expensive AppleCare pluses. So Apple care plus I was going to, I did not get it on my new iPhone se because as $400 in the AppleCare plus is $150. Darn yeah. One third. The cost darn. I don't know. Okay. So here is the kicker. All right. So this is, this is a good cost analysis by the way. So your AppleCare plus with theft and loss, deductibles would have been $269. It's a lot, it's a lot of money. It's going to cost more to replace it. Right? So my logic has always, I only have a phone for a year and it's hard to lose a phone in a year, but this time I managed it.

James (00:58:06):
So I think normal, rational people who keep their phones for three to five years. Um, it's probably a lot more worth it. But then again, nevermind. Cause it probably expires after the first year or two. I am not necessarily how sure how much it costs to replace your phone. I assume that they give you a new one. Hashtag question Mark. Now I will say this for the DJI, uh, uh, replacements the one year and I got an additional two years. So that was $79. And it was, I think $49 or $50 to every time you like, you give them money, right? You give them money and then you give them more money when you break it. But like for drone, you're going to be breaking that thing all the time. So you might get a day one. You James. Wow. What are you doing to that?

James (00:59:02):
Poor drone. I mean, it started with the adorable, I'm just, I'm questioning how you treat your devices. I am a little bit, nobody knows. Nobody knows. Well, since the guy who dropped his phone in the water, but whatever measure. Okay. So, Oh, I think here's what it is. If I think that's the deductible is if you, I think you have to pay them an extra $269. How much does it cost? Hold on. Let's see here. We're gonna buy, we're gonna buy an iPhone. How do you buy an iPhone or I'm going to buy store.apple.com. You don't have a link to that. I have a bookmark for by latest phone. So I think it is important. Oh, it already knows. I'd already knows that I have that phone. Okay. So let me buy a new phone, right? iPhone. You got an 11 pro this is a bony.

James (00:59:46):
Everyone can turn this off, go to merchant conflict. That FM, if you're not interested in here, thanks for listening. But let's go ahead and buy an iPhone 11 pro. Let's see what Frank had. Cause we're going to do this math and then it's terrible. So you bought a max, correct? Why didn't you? Of course you did. No, no, I did not. 11 pro only. I am over the big phone. James they're too big. They're too course. Yep. Capacity. I think I got the medium memory, not the largest two 56. All right. Sounds right. SIM free. Naturally. I do not have a phone to do. Oh, here we go. Oh my goodness. It's an expensive phone. Isn't it? It's a, you'd be paying no, you'd be paying $1,150 for just the phone. Just the phone could spend that kind of money. That's a great question. I spent, I spent $400 and I had $40 in best buy gift card.

James (01:00:39):
So I only paid $360. Good deal. Look at you. And I have the same processor that you did have. So I just want to say that by the way, it doesn't hurt to just be keeping coming. I'm enjoying every bit of this. So had you purchase AppleCare plus with theft and loss, that would have been an extra $299. Oh 300 on top. So they do a third. It's literally a third of the price. Wow. Yeah. Now you could do monthly for 1499 a month. No big deal. You know what? I might upgrade to an iPhone six next year might be what's in the cards for me, but here's the here they're on Craigslist, but here's the thing is if you buy this, then you still have to pay $269 to get another one if you lose it. So you would be in $500. So if you lose it, okay. So if you lose it, you end up saving half price, half price. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I don't know if this is official, but sometimes the people at the Apple store. Cool. And you don't actually pay that. Maybe if it fits within a certain amount of time or something, if they look at your Apple, Apple ID and like, Oh, Oh mr. Kruger, I see that you've purchased every single iPhone that you've ever had. And in fact, you've purchased every Mac that we've ever had. That's very strange, strange. Oh. And you've been paying us

Speaker 4 (01:01:59):
How much every year to be an Apple developer for how many years?

James (01:02:03):
Oh my goodness. All right. Just take all the phones, sir. There you go. Uh, uh that's if only it worked that way. I finally, I don't think they care, but that's fun. Um, yeah. I, wow. Now that you did the math, I'm actually not sure. Maybe I should have to revoke the PSA. I don't know people do the math. I don't think at this point, cause it's 50 50. You could, you could do the, you could have done the, you could, I think for you, if you get a new phone every year, you might as well do the monthly because then over a year you're only going to be now. That's how what's what's fifth time. I don't think it'll work out. So what Apple does have is like an update program where you're basically leasing a phone constantly and that works out well, it just doesn't work for me because I like to keep dev devices.

James (01:02:52):
And because I like to pass my phones down the family chain, but here's the problem. Frank say, you can't keep the phone if it's in the bottom of the Puget sound. Yeah, James, I realized that. Sorry, I'm having fun. I will say I am extremely, I am. Although I will say I've never been more worried about breaking a phone than I have been in the last five days with his iPhone, because it is so slippery and slidey. It just, it is. Yeah, you I'm on the couch and it's like, I'm just going to fall right off. I'm like, what do you feel like a magician? I feel commission learning like card, hand tricks. Like the way I'm able to manipulate this phone in my hand, without losing a solid grip or what I think of as a solid grip, no one should be listening to me right now.

James (01:03:38):
I drop my phone in the wall. That's true. But you know, the saddest part of it is, uh, find my phone app. Just I can, I can watch its battery slowly drain. I'm like, Oh, poor little guy, your battery. That means that you, so, so your phone is IP 68, uh, graded. Yeah. So it must not be that deep where you draw. Oh yeah. Actually I think I dropped it at a bunch of Lily pads. So it's potentially on top of a bunch of Lily pads right now or, you know, it may be, it could be on top or maybe it's just a little bit underwater because the Lily pad would have gone down and then that could, that could signal why your GPS might be a little fuzzy because water, I assume that has to manipulate GPS. Oh, water is terrible for all signals.

James (01:04:28):
Yeah. If it's more than a foot down, I don't think it would get out, but yeah, it's possible. It's a foot down. Oh my goodness. I'll have to send a scavenger crew that probably costs a thousand dollars an hour tire. Well, I want you to go back out tomorrow and your kayak that's half the it and then try to find it. That'd be great. Yeah. Just keep calling in and saying, Oh, you know, what would be cool is if you go out at night and then you call it and it lights up. Okay. That, that is kind of cool. I'll give you credit there. That'd be fun. That'd be good. All right. I gotta go. I have to go, Frank. Uh, this has been for a while, James. This is, this was a fun podcast though. This wasn't a lightning round, but I feel like we did a lot of topics on this one. We did do a lot and we'll see in six months, if I'm back to Android or not, and that will be our update and episode 228 of merge conflicts. So tune in for that one, but until then head over to merge conflict.fm for all the latest podcasts and our discord and our Twitter and all the things go and follow us there. So that's going to do it for this week's merge conflicts. So until next time I'm James Monson Magno

James (01:05:33):
And I'm Frank Krueger. Thanks for this piece.