NHIE – 1x04 TRANSCRIPT DANI: Welcome back to “Never Have I Ever… Hosted a Podcast”. I’m Dani, CLARA: And I’m Clara, DANI: And today we will be discussing the fourth episode titled “Never Have I Ever… Felt Super Indian”, Written by Mindy Kaling and Directed by Linda Mendoza. CLARA: And before we get started, diving in too deep, we will of course let the show tell us what this episode is about. [clip from Never Have I ever plays: Devi is in a line at a coffee shop, young girl in the line asks Devi if she is Princess Jasmine, to which Devi thanks her but says no. The girl asks where Aladdin is, and Devi says in a heated voice “I don’t have an Aladdin, because he just wants to be friends!”. The young girl’s mother asks if Devi would take a photo with her daughter for her daughter’s instagram. Devi declines, but then others in the line pressurise her to take the photo. Devi finally relents. Devi also declines the offer for a doughnut from the coffee-shop waiter, as she is fasting for Ganesh Puja.] DANI: Firstly, I just want to say “YAY THE SHOWS BEEN RENEWED FOR A SEASON 2!!” It really set our day off right, and it also happens to be my best friend’s Erin’s birthday! Even though everyone will be hearing this episode next week, but it’s still awesome we happen to be recording today. So, Clara, what did you think of this episode? CLARA: I really liked it and again I think… we talked about this last time but the first two episodes really lean into how funny they are, and as the show gets deeper in, we get deeper into deep issues… wow I sound like an idiot, but you know what I mean. So I really liked this episode, and I think you and I especially have talked a lot over the years over our friendship about being bi-cultural, and we both experience that in a very different way than Devi does, but for me I just really love seeing an episode of TV that is about that and where we get to sort of explore that. DANI: Yeah, this is an episode that I didn’t relate to too much altogether, but I actually really loved that. Although I definitely know some of the identity issues that she is facing. I’ve never tried to kid myself past 9th grade that I was capable of an ivy-league education, so I didn’t have to worry about that, although I was told all the way up to middle school that I could go to Harvard if I tried… CLARA: Why are people telling middle-school kids where they should go to college? DANI: no it was actually BEFORE, it was before middle-school, it was all the way UP TO middle school. CLARA: Oh! Up to, not up through. So like, 9 year old Dani was like” You should go to Harvard! DANI: And I was like “Fuck yeah! Elle Woods went to Harvard!” CLARA: Yes she did! DANI: So, besides that, I did identify with her when she felt like she wasn’t Indian enough for the Indian kids and too Indian to everyone else. It’s definitely different for me in that I am bi-racial, but it’s something that people with a bi-racial identity feel quite a bit. That’s a lot to unpack, so I think we’ll get into that later in the episode. That being said, I loved hearing Devi’s story about this, and seeing more of her culture and where she fits in with the world. I absolutely loved getting to see more of Nalini and Kamala because I feel like we don’t get enough of them. They were all feeling a bit uncomfortable and like they didn’t quite belong there. Kamala with her issues with her impending arranged marriage and Nalini with having lost her husband, and this being the first event that she has face the others. It really just shows where they are at in this journey as people. I loved that this episode was different. In a way it’s kind of a bottle episode and it really gives us an insight into Devi’s family, and we we haven’t really gotten until this point. It really feels like a tipping point for a lot of Indian viewers. I’ve read from different Indian voices that this is the episode that people decide whether they are into this show or not. CLARA: I’m going to be interested to hear more about that from you. I’ve sort of alluded to this, but I also related to that experience of being (in my case) “too Jewish” and “not Jewish enough” at the same time. My dad is the Jewish one, not my mom, which means that to a lot of other Jewish people, I don’t count as Jewish. Like, my uncle once said that at a family event right after I was saying what a horrible feeling it was to be dismissed as Jewish by other Jews. “Yeah, you’re not Jewish!” and I said something not very kind to him in Yiddish. And there’s a long story there that I won’t get into. But also at the same time, I went to college in the South, and where I was—I was one of 8 Jews at my college. The town itself had only one synagogue that served everyone from the Orthodox Jews to the Messianic Jews (you might know them as “Jews for Jesus”), and Jerry Fallwell once went up to my Jewish roommate when she was eating with a few friends at a Sonic on a Sunday (so I guess he was there after church) and just straight up told her out of nowhere— they had not been in a conversation before, she was just living her life— that she was going to hell for being Jewish. So I really relate to the complicated feelings Devi expresses about being Indian in this episode. It’s that feeling of being between two worlds, no matter where it comes from. There’s a certain amount of that that you get for any bi-cultural or biracial or bi-whatever experience. DANI: Exactly. I asked a few Indian people that I know who liked the show how they felt about this episode. Because obviously we are not Indian, so it’s hard to speak too much to this episode. I want to get through our thoughts on this episode before we get into that, but it’s really important that we do. We wanted to have guests for this episode but unfortunately it didn’t pan out. So the first thing I want to talk about is the Princess Jasmine scene when Devi is grabbing coffee. It honestly really pissed me off, and I definitely know that happens to people. I just wish that people would not enable their children to be asshats. Instead of letting her do that, take a moment to tell your kid that it’s rude, and that they shouldn’t do it. Then afterwards the Barista assumes she’s fasting because of Ramadan… I wish people would just ask “what are you celebrating?” or “what are you fasting for?” rather than assume the holiday. What do you think Clara? CLARA: Well first let’s talk about the kid and her parents because the kid learns to be an asshat from somewhere, and it’s pretty clear where the kid learned to be an asshat from. I mean the thing that struck me the most was the complete lack of boundaries when it comes to dealing with a woman of colour. She says no, she does it politely and gives a good reason, and they just won’t accept it, they’re fucking rude, and they’re like “no, my kid needs her Instagram photo” her “cultural” (air quotes) instagram photo. As for the Barista assuming that she’s fasting because of Ramadan, I agree with you it would be great to ask what people are celebrating, or even just be like “oh I’m sorry that must be hard” because fasting sucks, I’ve fasted before for Jewish holidays. DANI: I’ve never had. CLARA: There’s a weird dissonance there for me because growing up most of the white people I knew only associated Indian culture with Hinduism, and so it was kinda funny that he assumed she was Muslim, because there’s a certain amount of educated-ness that goes into that before he steps into it. DANI: Yeah, there’s so many different cultures, That was something I didn’t know until recently—I knew that there were multiple different cultures, but there are a LOT of different cultures! CLARA: When she reads the Wikipedia article to Paxton! DANI: Yeah basically. We really get to see so much more of Nalini in this episode, and I love her. She’s such a savage. I’m convinced she’s a Capricorn actually. CLARA: Of course, you start liking her, so she has to have your sign! DANI: I didn’t START liking her, I always liked her! No I was talking about it because I was talking to someone else who was doing an astrology post but it was for Tumblr. So I had made signs for a lot of them, I didn’t for everybody, and she wanted Nalini and Kamal signs, and I was like “okay let me think about this,” and I ended up saying Capricorn for Nalini because she is pretty cynical and driven and CLARA: She definitely has to be an earth sign, and I think you’re right, she is… What’s that line? I wrote it down because it’s one of my favourites. I’m sorry that I’m jumping ahead… but it was: don’t waste your prayers on world peace.” That was definitely a Capricorn remark. DANI: Yeah. I put her as a Capricorn and I settled on Kamala as a Sagittarius, with much debate inside my head. But I also love the cadence in her voice whenever she cusses, like she’s saving it for special occasions like the way she says “bitch.” Just anytime she says “bitch” it’s too good! CLARA: Like Molly Weasley in the last Harry Potter book! DANI: Yeah! I think this episode is a huge glimpse into how much she is struggling with Mohan’s death and making face with people at public events. I can tell why she might not be super keen on going to them with the way the aunties are treating her. You can really see how much her and Devi are alike. They both really don’t like to be pitied. CLARA: Yeah, that struck me too that this is a moment where they’re actually really similar. And it’s funny because I don’t think Devi recognises that even in this moment. One thing I was thinking, I read this book earlier this year by an Indian author, it’s called A Henna Artist and it’s by Alka Joshi. And she has this term in it for the particular style of gossip that you see from the aunties in this that I guess is common in Indian culture. They refer to the people who are doing the gossip as Gossip-Eaters. And I really thought that was an interesting term. DANI: Like Death-Eaters? CLARA: I don’t think it’s quite like that, I can’t claim to understand enough about the culture to know everything that that’s supposed to mean. But I did think about that term when I saw the aunties like “oh, they’re gossip-eaters.” And then It just got me thinking about all the different ways that different cultures deal with gossip, because it’s a thing everywhere. In Jewish culture we have this concept of Lashon Hara which means… It’s actually a prohibition on sharing true gossip… like things that are actually true about somebody, not just making things up. Unless you’re doing it to help somebody. It’s considered a pretty big sin to commit Lashon Hara and to talk shit about somebody behind their back. Even if it’s true, even if they have done something really bad. I think one of the examples I saw had to do with murder. I was like “that’s kinda wild that there’s all these different traditions around.” What makes gossip acceptable or not. DANI: That is very interesting. There’s nothing specific in Mexican culture about gossip. I mean all the Mexicans I know are pretty Gossip-y. When I was growing up... some people are really, really, really bad at talking shit about others. They just stare at you when they do it, and it’s obvious that they’re talking shit about you. Except so many of them don’t realise that I was Mexican, and I was like “I don’t fully understand Spanish, but I can understand enough to know when you’re calling me a bitch.” . That’s the worst though. So then we have Kamala, I really feel for her in this episode. She’s really wrestling inwardly about wanting to make her family happy and wanting to make herself happy. There’s a lot coming at her, judgement, and seeing what is like for the other woman who has been ousted by everyone. It made me really sad for her, because I can’t imagine what that would feel like. That’s something I’ll never have to think about. I feel like she already feels like she doesn’t fit in much because it sounded like the thing she is studying in school isn’t normal for women to be studying in her culture. CLARA: Well I’m not even sure if it’s not normal for women to be studying, or if it’s just that the expectation is that she’s not serious about her studies. That those are a thing she does to pass the time until she gets married. But I definitely think the level of ambition that Kamala has is unusual or surprising. And especially because outwardly she is so Indian in so many other ways. People see her as this perfect Indian girl, Devi definitely certainly does and Nalini I think does as well. I think there’s a tension for her between that image of being this perfect Indian woman and how she actually feels which is complicated and ambitious and all those other things that she feels like aren’t accepted by her culture. But I love this episode for getting to see that multi-generational… all those different generations of Indians and how they’re reacting. I think that’s what the show is fundamentally about. It’s about the relationship between the Indian women in the show, despite the fact that Devi wants to pretend that it’s all about sex. There’s a big part that’s about these relationships. DANI: This is a side-note about Kamala: do they ever really mention what side of the family she’s actually from? Is she Nalini’s Family, or Mohan’s? CLARA: I’m not sure, they refer to Nalini as her aunt, but of course she would be her aunt by marriage if Kamala was related to Mohan, but also Aunty is a term that gets used for older Indian women period, so it’s a little unclear. My assumption is she’s related to Nalini because of the way Nalini treats her. That feels like a blood relationship, in a way. DANI: That’s true, almost like her second daughter. CLARA: Yeah, she feels like Kamala is her surrogate daughter while Kamala is in the United States. DANI: I really feel for Devi in this episode, the things she wishes for when she’s praying. All the funny ones, but then wanting her mom to be proud of her and wishing her dad was still alive. Those really punched me in the gut, especially because just a few minutes later Nalini says she’s disappointed in her for blowing it with the college recruitment guy. CLARA: Yeah, and of course I understand where Nalini is coming from, she is so practical and just wants all of the good things for her daughter, but also: That guy was a fucking douche. DANI: We’ll get to that! CLARA: Okay! I agree with you though, I think wishing her Dad was alive is obviously a gut-punch, but I think the one of her wanting her mum to be proud of her hit me more. DANI: Yeah. It was really sweet, but her having the Dad though really got to me. I want to talk about the scene with the white college recruitment guy. He’s very rude to Devi and she definitely fires back at him. While I agree he was a complete asshole about their conversation, unfortunately he’s not wrong. Your academic resume even as padded as Devi’s is rarely enough to get you into college these days especially right out of high school. Which is awful and crappy but the college system is over saturated right now because of how hard society tries to push people to go to college. The sad thing is the story about losing her dad would probably be the thing that would get her in the easiest. I am curious that now that she’s dealt with that trauma a little bit more at the end of this season if she might be willing to reconsider writing an essay about that for her college applications. CLARA: So I think you are right about the general, “yes just having perfect grades is not going to get you into an Ivy League.” I think what pisses me off so much about that scene is the way that he makes it about her being Indian, right? That her being Indian means that her good grades mean less. Especially the thing he said at the beginning: :I can say this because I’m married to an Indian woman.” DANI: Oh! Yeah that was awful. CLARA: I mean you saw the text that I sent you the other day about this guy I know who is constantly saying: I can say this offensive thing because I have a Mexican boyfriend. That shit pisses me off so much. No you can’t! That doesn’t make it less racist or more okay. DANI: Yeah, that’s one of the worst things you can say, it automatically makes me want to dismiss you. CLARA: Yeah it’s just about the same as saying “I’m not a racist but…” DANI: There’s always a but! CLARA: So anyway, he’s a butt! DANI: Big butt! I want to talk about the brief moment between Devi and Paxton before we get into the more serious conversations. For one, I love that when she’s kicking the locker she has THREE chocolate milks on her tray. CLARA: She really wants to be taken seriously! Did she write “latte” on her chocolate milks? DANI: I think she’s the kind of person who would actually drink coffee— I don’t think she would drink a coffee that was like an Americano, but I feel like she would get a Mocha for sure! CLARA: That’s basically the same chocolate anyway. DANI: With two shots of espresso. She really just wants a donut. Get a girl a donut. But for Paxton, as much as I appreciate Paxton for saying “you do you.” to Devi, something about it felt really stand-offish. I think that’s just him trying to be like chill and charming because he definitely meant well, but something about it doesn’t sit right with me. Like this is about her identity that she’s having a bit of a crisis, and she really shouldn’t be written-off that quickly. Although he does seem to have a way of making her smile, and it was very much needed for her at that moment. He’s ever the charmer with “also, you look cool in that outfit”. I’m really curious to see Paxton through the lens of characters other than Devi. We see it briefly, from Ben. I’d like to see him from Fabiola or Eleanor’s perspective, because he’s so idealized by Devi for much of the season, which in all honesty isn’t fair to him either. CLARA: Nobody wins when you put someone on a pedestal for sure. It’s interesting that you say that, I can understand what you mean. Especially on a gender dimension, him saying “Just don’t worry what other people think”, does not work. But I did find it interesting, It was probably good for her to hear that from him because he’s biracial, and I think he has similar… maybe his pressures aren’t similar but he will have experienced SOME thing, they will have some line of connection there. It’s an interesting take, he is V. chill all the time. That’s his solution to everything. DANI: He is V. Chill! I don’t think he does it intentionally and I don’t think he meant any harm by his comments, It just felt kind of… CLARA: Just a little thoughtless DANI: Dismissive, yeah. CLARA: Yeah I’d be interested to see him through Fabiola or Eleanor’s eyes, as something other than a sex object. DANI: There’s also this conversation that I wanted to talk about that she has with her friend who goes to Stanford who is back for this celebration. CLARA: Was that Malik? I didn’t quite catch his name. DANI: Yeah! I didn’t catch his name either even though I’ve seen it a few times. I found their conversation to be really interesting because it really shows two different sides of feeling like you belong. He realized while away how lame it is to hate on your culture and feel embarrassed by it. He’s kind of mean to Devi though in that he says to her “i just thought, ‘Am I gonna be this insecure Indian guy who hates doing Indian things?’ Cause that’s its own identity. It’s just a shitty one.” She instantly gets defensive and I feel like for good reason. I mean he’s graduated and gone off to college so he’s able to come to terms in a way that I feel like Devi isn’t ready for. Everyone’s figuring out their identity in high school. I am sure she will see how beautiful her culture is one day and celebrate it without issue. From having read Mindy’s books and following her over the years, I know she has also struggled feeling like she belonged. She was a true black sheep, because she loved comedy and wanted to pursue it, which it’s definitely not the norm. CLARA: Yeah it’s interesting… I find it funny that you think that comment was mean to Devi, because it wasn’t about her, right? That was about him and she does get defensive, but that is her seeing herself in that comment in a way that she doesn’t like, right? DANI: But he also gave her this knowing look because they had been having this conversation and that’s what it ends on. CLARA: I mean maybe, I don’t know, but I felt like he was generally very nice to her, and I do think the “it’s just a shitty one” comment is a little bit further than he needed to go, but I also saw him as trying to help her bridge that gap. DANI: I did find it as an important moment of feeling these two different sides of feeling that. CLARA: Yeah and I think that’s one thing that this episode does really well in general. Going back to Kamala’s storyline, I felt like they did a really great and respectful job. I’ve seen so many things—so many older pop-cultural things— about Indian culture that paint arranged marriage as either 100% good or 100% bad. And honestly since most of the things I’ve seen are American, they usually paint it as “oh my god you’re taking my freedoms!” And I think this episode did such a great and nuanced job of handling that, because it is a complicated issue. And it’s not JUST about… There is an extent to which it’s about pleasing your family, but it’s also about feeling like you’re part of a community, and there’s a lot of pressure involved in it. I was actually really curious about what the deal was with Ron’s wife. Because clearly she married someone who was Indian, and that doesn’t mean it wasn’t arranged, but that would be unusual based on everything we’ve heard. So I hope we get to meet her and see how that situation is reconciled at some point in the series. DANI: I feel like it’s always different when it comes to white people. Like… “Oh I’m going to marry a white man” is a little different to if they marry a black man or an Asian man. CLARA: You think that’s about assimilation? DANI: Assimilation for sure, wanting to fit in, be American. But I do think he took on the culture. He was receptive to it, and it sounds like he converted? CLARA: I think he didn’t, I mean that comment that he made… DANI: not necessarily that he DID convert, but he is pretending. He has a hyphenated last name too. CLARA: Yeah that’s true. DANI: I want to go back to how I said earlier that I related to the episode in not feeling exactly like I belong. I grew up bi-racial. Irish and Mexican/Native American. I wasn’t Mexican enough for the Mexican kids at school, and I wasn't white enough to be white. I of course had tons of privilege because of my skin color. Granted at the same time, I never tried hard enough to get in touch with my Mexican heritage. I never felt like I belonged and because I never felt too welcome, I stopped trying and that’s on me. I’ve learned as an adult to love that part of my heritage. I do love that they show how Devi’s friend who was home from college had a similar change in mind when it came to his Indian heritage, even if he was a butt about it. CLARA: agree to disagree! DANI: It’s incredibly common in mixed race individuals to have low self-esteem. I did a lot of reading on this while mapping this episode out because I wanted to see what smarter people had to say about it. Apparently it’s called “Racial Imposter Syndrome”. CLARA: That’s a good word for it! DANI: One person said that it’s like “Living at the intersection of different identities and cultures is like stumbling through a dark forest.” Which felt pretty accurate. I feel like the show (that’s also on Netflix) “Dear White People” explains a lot of this really thoroughly. The tv show goes into how lead character has problems with embracing her black side until she gets to college, and then she struggles with being half white too and kind of lies about it, and it’s a huge thing. And her father, the white parent, passes away and she has all of these regrets and really comes to terms with a lot of stuff. That kind of reminded me of Devi in a way. But that show is really beautiful and I definitely recommend checking it out for so many reasons. I honestly learned so much from that show. That being said: I think for Devi, she needs to find people who are like minded to her. She might not be making friends with actual Indian people outside of the cultural festivities because maybe she’s not trying. She’s a first-generation American, and a lot of the times they are the most likely to feel the push and pull of wanting to be Indian (in her case) and being American. CLARA: Yeah! So, to talk about more books that I’ve read, earlier this year I read a graphic novel called Good Talk by Mira Jacob who is also second-generation Indian Immigrant. So born in America but to two Indian parents. And this episode reminded me a lot of some of the things she talked about, because there’s a section where she goes back to India with her family, and she talks sort of obliquely about the ways that she distances herself from her Indian Heritage—in part because she feels like her Indian family was rejecting her as an American. They would sort of make fun of her for not being Indian enough. I don’t know if we’re the right people to fully get into this but one of the things that she talks about is she has darker skin. Her family really revered light-skinned Indian people. I think we see a little about that in the way that people treat Kamala as opposed to some of the Indian women in the show. But there’s an aspect of that to Devi’s experience: I’m going to reject this before it rejects me. And she has that not just in her relationship to her indian-ness, that’s sort of a general defence mechanism that we see from Devi over and over again. When she likes somebody or wants to get close to them but they hurt her in any tiny little way, she pushes them the fuck away. So I definitely think we are seeing some of that. The other thing that I think is interesting related to this is the Aunties are awful to everyone… but when they’re awful to Nalini she kind of takes it in stride. Like she obviously hates it, but she just thinks of it as “ugh the Aunties.” But the way that Devi experiences it is as the Aunties rejecting her, pushing her out. They don’t see HER as good enough. So she takes it really personally. And the same thing we were talking about with Ron, that is a rejection of the other part of who she is. She feels like she is a whole and interesting person, but people keep essentialising her, reducing her down to being Indian or not being Indian. And it’s that push-pull and that feeling split. I really like that quote that you said—it feels like stumbling through a dark forest. Everywhere you go… I don’t know… there’s trees pushing you away? I don’t know. DANI: As I said before, I talked to a few Indian friends to get a consensus on their feelings regarding this episode in particular, if it was done right, if they felt uncomfortable with anything. I got an enormous amount of love back for the episode from most people I spoke with. I’m going to talk about that for a little. In my group chat the consensus was that while most of them are non-religious they still kept up appearances for their parents when they were younger. None of them understood the recurring fountain joke. DOES SOMEONE UNDERSTAND, please tell me. Do you understand the Fountain joke? CLARA: No, I assume it’s an internal stereotype like we were talking about, like Bisexuals not being able to sit in chairs. DANI: I just think it’s funny that every single person I know that is Indian is like “I don’t know what they’re talking about”. One person said that it could have just been a joke because Indians just love decorations in general. A lot of them say the Jasmine thing at the beginning has happened to them. It’s worth noting a lot of the people I talked to were under 25 and said they really related to Devi’s struggle, but it’s not universal. Some were half Indian and felt similar to me growing up, so definitely felt like they related to Devi. They felt the episode was a very good example of cultural integration and how some people can be embarrassed by it. CLARA: And one thing I do want to point out is you’re mostly talking to people who already like the show, right? DANI: I talked to mostly people who already liked the show. I tried to get other people that didn’t like it to talk to me about it but they didn’t really want to, so that’s fine. CLARA: Yeah. I just want to make sure we put that out there that there’s probably other views from other people who aren’t are not watching the show and aren’t already obsessed. DANI: Oh there is and I’ll talk about it. CLARA: Okay. DANI: My friend Priya in particular said that although there are a lot of different Indian cultures, a lot of the episode was still relatable. She said that the episode reminded her of how judgemental Indians can be if you grew up in a white cultured area and that she didn’t think Devi hated being Indian but that she disliked the stereotypes that came with it, but that she doesn’t know herself but she will eventually. She wasn’t a fan of Kamala’s storyline because at least from what she knows arranged marriages aren't as common anymore, and the other woman that was shunned from society, it was because she was older, so she was an older generation that Kamala. She wasn’t sure that storyline was sending the right message. That’s probably the most negative thing I heard from the people I was able to ask. Another friend though said that although arranged marriage isn’t quite the same anymore, it is still frowned upon to marry an outsider at least in India, but that Western influence has changed it a lot for some cultures. Universally, they all loved the Aunties scene and felt it was very accurate. I just wanted to give a voice to my Indian friends and acquaintances in this episode because as much as I can comment on how I think the episode is, I really wanted to know what they thought, and I wanted to see if the episode sat right with them. CLARA: I appreciate you doing that. I’m kinda curious though—you’re friend who said that she wasn’t sure if it was sending the right message, did she expand on that at all? DANI: She wasn’t sure if it was sending the right message because I think how much Kamala was at odds with it. And it’s just not as common as a practice anymore. CLARA: Okay, so you think she was not sure that somebody would feel the same way that Kamala does? DANI: Yeah. CLARA: Yeah, if she’s willing to share more, I would love to hear. Maybe we can talk next time. DANI: and I will definitely get more into the negative feedback, I have that placed for later on towards the end of the episode. So for fashion, I really don’t have much fashion-wise. Because it’s all so beautiful and gorgeous the whole episode. The outfits are Gorgeous. I love Devi’s, I love the colours on her. Teal looks really good. I love the colour on Kamala as well, I loved the orange. I loved her hair. It’s just such a beautiful culture, the whole episode is just so beautiful. CLARA: Yeah, I think Sari’s are just so gorgeous right? They’re beautifully constructed, they’re made of lovely material, though apparently very itchy! CLARA: In general I’m drawn to really colorful scenes, and the fact that there’s so many different bold colours in the fashion of this episode is something I really loved. And one thing I want to point out because I noticed this. I didn’t pay a tonne of attention to the fashion outside of the main thing that was going on, but I did notice that after this, when we see Devi again she’s wearing a black shirt. She normally wears a lot of colour in her regular outfits, she has the orange skirt and whatever else. But she’s wearing much more muted tones when she switches back to her American clothes. And I thought that was really interesting, and I wondered again if that was her distancing herself from her negative experiences at this cultural event. DANI: I’m sure that has something to do with it. So the next part would be our lines. CLARA: So the first one was in the car, Nalini: “Lord Ganesh doesn’t need to see my daughter in ripped jeans and a fries before guys t-shirt. But honestly fries do come before guys.” And then right when they arrive and Devi’s like: “Aunties approaching, don’t look”. And then Kamala says “Where! Where should I not look!” CLARA: Tell me the truth, did they send you home on medical leave, are you suicidal from Accutane? And my last one would be Devi: “Some old loser was telling me that I’m too Indian, and some other people think I’m not Indian enough, and honestly all I want to do is eat a Donut.” DANI: Yep, I mean: Donuts! So I have quite a few, so the first one is: “I don’t have an Aladdin because he just wants to be friends!”. That one was in our clip! CLARA: That one was good! DANI: The next one is: “Ew, mom don’t say of age. It makes me sound like a girl in a douche commercial” CLARA: Okay, honestly I thought that was funny but I also didn’t understand it, like I don’t think that that’s a thing that they say in douche commercials. DANI: I’ve never seen a douche commercial, so I was like “What?” CLARA: In crazy-ex, they have a storyline where one of the characters becomes the face of a douche-brand. She becomes Miss Douche. Oh and the CEO of the company is the woman who plays our favourite character from Jane the Virgin. DANI: who’s our favourite character? CLARA: ERR. Jane’s friend! Can’t remember the name. DANI: Which friend! CLARA: The gay one! Bisexual one. DANI: Oh um, god what is it? CLARA: I can’t remember! DANI: Oh my god, it’s something random. CLARA: Is the actress’ name Yael? Is that right? DANI: Yeah CLARA: Okay anyway. I got us off topic. But anyway I don’t feel it’s something from a douche commercial, I think it’s something that makes me think of Jane Austen. DANI: It’s Petra! CLARA: Yes Petra! Thank you. Thank god! Alright, your next line? Sorry! DANI: Well also speaking of that show, the costume designer also did the costumes for that. CLARA: Oh! Really! DANI: I’m pretty sure. I’m like 99% sure. I know someone that worked on, this worked on that. I’m pretty sure it’s him. The next one is: Jewish people know how to save, us Indians: we get a little bit of money and go to home depot and buy a cement fountain. Which is the fountain thing that I mentioned which recurs multiple times within the episode. I was on the floor the first time I heard it! CLARA: I honestly was a little MEH about this. I mean it is a little bit of an internal stereotype as well, but… the association of Jewish people with wealth… it’s not good! Anyway. DANI: Yes, you could definitely see that you could be potentially offended by that. The next one was: “Winning over old-ass teacher types is my superpower”. CLARA: It is her superpower. DANI: And then when Devi says: “I’m going to be an atheist, who eats cheeseburgers every day with my white boyfriend” CLARA: Oh Devi, oh god. Ugh. DANI: that’s a line that I think a lot of people had trouble with. Her story is telling both sides, but… I’m getting confused with myself. CLARA: Well I think maybe what you’re trying to get at is: sometimes the words that we hear come out of Devi’s mouth, because they’re written in a TV show, are things that are for other people internalised. And I do think it’s true that you do see some sort of internalisation where people who are not white or are immigrants or have moved… they see having a white partner as part of assimilation and being accepted in their new culture. And so I do think it’s a little fucked up that it’s so close to the surface for her. I would call her out for saying that if I were her friend. Which I guess he sort of does. But I think it does reflect what is sometimes an internalised state of self-hatred. DANI: It’s that, but also she hasn’t found her identity yet so saying something stupid like that makes complete sense for a teenager. CLARA: That’s definitely true. I used to say a lot of stupid shit as a teenager. DANI: Definitely. So the next one is Nalini saying: “What idea? That I love my husband less because my roots aren’t showing?”. CLARA: Thank you for saying that Nalini. DANI: and Devi says: “I don’t need some washed-up white dude, who leases a tesla telling me what makes me special.” CLARA: Leasing is still a financial commitment! My monthly payments are VERY high! DANI: And Paxton, which we kind of mentioned this earlier: “You don’t have to give me the Wikipedia page on India” CLARA: Paxton, just take a seat. DANI: And then Pandit Raj when he says: “Where do you want to go to college?” (And she replies “Princeton”) and he says: “I will bring it up to God personally”. That cracked me up. CLARA: I liked Pandit Raj, he reminded me of every reformed Rabbi that I’ve ever met who plays guitar. DANI: He kind of reminded me of the people who play in bands for Christian music. So similar concept. And the last one is from Devi: “I liked the incense you used, it was like we were in a cannabis store.” And Nalini’s facial reaction to this is priceless, and I think that’s what makes it so funny. CLARA: It was! The Pandit Raj was into it! DANI: alright so our MVP. I’m going to make mine short and sweet. I want to give my MVP to Mindy Kaling for writing it, and to Salvador Perez Jr. for being a fan-fucking-tastic costume designer! CLARA: I agree with you on both of those to be honest. I’m going to split mine between Salvador Perez Jr. and… what is the name of the actress who plays Nalini again? DANI: It’s Poorna CLARA: Okay, I will give mine to her too since she was great in this episode. DANI: There is something that I want to talk about. And since we aren’t doing our ratings anymore. I was trying to find feedback about the episode from Indian people, but before I went out and talked to our friends about it, and this seems like it’s an episode that makes it or breaks it for people, and I noticed at least a few negative reviews of the episode, and that’s fine you don’t have to love the show or the episode. But what I realised is I feel like it’s Mindy Kaling in particular, it’s a lot of shit for how she writes her story. But similar in vain stories written by men are received differently. Aziz Ansari got a lot of praise for a similar episode in Master of None, where his character basically tells his parents that he’s not religious and it shows different sides of not feeling Indian enough as well. It’s a brilliant episode and I love that show, but I just feel like it’s a little bit unfair. And then you have the entire plot of the Big Sick written by Kumail. And that film’s loosely based on his life as well—worth noting that he is Pakistani and not Indian, but the film very much goes into race and religion and culture in a very similar way, so why does Mindy get so much shit? CLARA: Yeah, I am sure that you’re right, and there is a gendered component. I also think… We have a friend, I don’t want to name any names on this, but we have a friend and he said Mindy Kaling is not necessarily the best representative of Indian culture. And I do think that some of it is just what we are talking about—this complicated relationship that her characters and she has to her own culture. And the fact that she is so visible. Kumail Nanjiani and Aziz Ansari are also pretty visible, but there is a way that I think Mindy Kaling is even more visible. And she has created a empire for herself between the books and the TV work she does and a whole bunch of other stuff. So I think it is a mix between being female, which I think there’s probably some intersection there, women in general are seen… maybe I’m projecting this because I come from a matrilineal culture, but in Jewish culture women are seen as definitely seen as the carriers-on of tradition. And you see that in 19th century American conversations, women are supposed to be the moral arbiters, and they bring morality to the family and whatever else, so I suspect there is some of that. I think people feel she has greater responsibility because she’s female to do that. I also think that probably there’s a lot of resentment because she was one of the first people—the first really big Indian American Superstars. And to have that maybe be the first and most prominent story about your culture that gets told might be tricky for some people. And I mean there probably is some racism involved in the fact that that’s the case, right? Like maybe her stories are more palatable because there’s that complicated relationship, and it’s not just a one-sided perspective. DANI: Yeah. I can definitely see that, I just noticed it, not even just in doing research for this episode… But I feel like it comes back to: she’s a woman that’s Indian and she’s in comedy, and it’s not all that normal… I wouldn’t say “normal”, it’s not the norm. And there’s a couple people like Lilly Singh who’s pretty new. She does similar stuff, I’ve see her get a lot of shit. And it’s similar to Hasan who does the Patriot Act. And he doesn’t get shit for saying the same stuff that Lilly says, so it’s not just Mindy. CLARA: Yeah, I mean I’m sure there’s a gendered component to it because… of course there is! I think there is some complication too though. I think there’s some resentment that this very prominent and early Indian American person who was telling Indian stories, or Indian-American stories, is somebody who has a complicated relationship to her heritage. I just expect that there’s some resentment there. DANI: Yeah she’s been pretty forthcoming with how she’s always had issues with identifying that way and being super Indian. And she’s definitely… she’s had missteps, everybody has had missteps. It’s just one of those things, and It’s totally fine, people cannot like the episode, I think it’s just more when I see it from a critical lens. I don’t care what people say that are viewers too much, but when Critics try to be assholes about it, I think that’s when it stands out to me. CLARA: Yeah, and I think the conversation we are having right now where we’re talking about all the factors that could go into that, you don’t see that when you see reviews, right? You just see it presented as black-and-white, one-sided, there IS a right way. DANI: And as much as we try to think that Reviews aren’t important, they actually are very important. CLARA: But hey! Season 2 anyway! DANI: Either way, I’m really happy so many different stories are being told these days, especially at Netflix. They have missteps of course, but the diversity on that platform is really commendable and they are always first to get on board, and actually willing to change when called out. The first season of Atypical while well received had a lot of criticism from people on the Autism spectrum and for a good reason, but they took that and they actually worked at it, and made the show even better. CLARA: I haven’t watched that show, I have seen some of the kerfuffle around it. I’m not sure that Netflix always… I mean I do think they try to listen, but I don’t think they always do a good job. I know we can both agree that 13 Reasons Why is trash and also kind of like Junk-Food to watch. DANI: I actually like 13 Reasons Why CLARA: No I know you do, that’s what I mean by “Junk-Food to watch”, like a snickers bar. DANI: No I loved the first season, I thought the first season was perfect. A lot of people had issues with it, I did not. I did not like the second season all that much, the third season was really bad, but the fourth season is actually really good. CLARA: Well part of the reason why I brought that up is because there were these huge criticisms around the first season, and I think very valid criticisms—conversation for another day between you and I. But I also think I watched it and I watched the making-of or whatever. It was the end of either the Second or Third Season where they had all the cast and writers get together with some psychologist expert… DANI: It was like their after-show thing… I didn’t watch it. CLARA: Yeah, and honestly it sounded very lip-service-y. They were scare-quote listening. So I think there’s—I mean maybe I’m not giving them enough credit and they are trying with these things sometimes. I do think you’re right that they have made a strong effort to have a lot of diversity, and independent of whether they get it right all the time, they keep trying and that is commendable. I would just be wary of giving them too many gold stars. DANI: oh I’m not giving them that many, but I do think they try really hard as a platform, and we don’t see too much. I think they were the first people who posted something in regards to the Black Lives Matter movement. Totally apologise to anybody if we offended you for whatever reason. We are just trying to discuss this episode the best we can. CLARA: Yeah, and I think we would be interested to hear your perspectives on this episode regardless. Dani was limited, she could look at reviews and go out to her friends, but we would love to hear what people listening feel about the episode of the TV show and maybe that’s something we can work in in the future! DANI: And with that, I think we’ve come to the end of our show. Listeners, thank you for joining us. If you liked this episode, you can subscribe online wherever you get your podcasts. And you can follow us on Twitter or instagram @nhie_podcast. Bye! CLARA: ‘Never Have I Ever… Hosted a Podcast’ is produced and hosted by Dani Lowry, with Co-host Clara Sherley-Appel. Saxon Ahern is our sound engineer, and Lanier Sammons wrote our theme. CLARA: Mind-slut DANI: It’s Petra! Sorry.