NHIE – 1x02 TRANSCRIPT: DANI: Welcome back to “Never Have I Ever… Hosted a Podcast”. I’m Dani CLARA: And I’m Clara DANI: And today we will be discussing and doing a deep dive on the second episode of Netflix’s “Never Have I Ever” titled “Never Have I Ever… Had Sex with Paxton Hall - Yoshida.” Written by Justin Noble and Directed by Tristram Shapeero. CLARA: And before we get too far into things, I think we should let Ben and Devi tell us what this episode is about... [Clip from Never Have I Ever Episode 2 plays: Devi and Ben engage in a snarky back-and-forth interaction, in which Devi reveals that she is going on a date tonight and is going to lose her virginity—unlike Ben.] DANI: So, Clara, what did you think of this episode? CLARA: I liked it a lot! I don’t think it’s quite as funny or sharp as the pilot, but I think that makes sense given where we are. The pilot set up a lot of plot points and character development, and now we need to see that develop. We’re getting into Devi’s trauma a bit more and the fact that behind all her bluster and bravado, she’s still just a kid at heart, she’s very innocent. The whole opening scene cracks me up. Her perfect sex scene is someone telling her she’s a supreme court justice and then complimenting her on her dandruff shampoo. LOL. What about you, what did you think? DANI: I really liked the second episode. I think it’s so good for set up like you said and getting to know the characters a little bit more. Fabiola is established as definitely interested in girls, as she sees and makes flirty eye contact for the first time with Eve. It shows that Devi’s friends are concerned for her well-being early on. It seems like they do have the right to be concerned. There’s the whole set up with Paxton and shows how he’s kind of embarrassed to be seen with Devi, and just how she is so brave and really has no fucks to give. It also shows I believe that he does have actual feelings for Devi at the end of the episode. You also see Ben and Devi go too far CLARA: WAAAY too far! DANI: in their antagonism for each other, and how Ben is secretly a soft soft boy. So how can y’all not ship Benvi, I don’t know! CLARA: You’re obsessed. OBSESSED! DANI: You don’t know the half of it. You don’t see my notes anymore. CLARA: Very true. DANI: So. Devi seems to have kind of a wild imagination, she seems to fail a lot in this episode. And then she definitely seems to have grown a bit by the end of the episode. What do you think of where we are in Devi’s journey? CLARA: [save that] for later. I want to ask you more about what you mean by “fail.” But I think if you think of the pilot as the episode that shows us how Devi got to the point that she’s at, then this second episode is showing us just how far she has to go to get to where she wants to be or needs to be. Between the conversation that she has with her therapist at the beginning— which is hilarious by the way!— The way she panics when Paxton takes off his shirt and she’s confronted with the reality of having sex with a boy she barely knows, and the fact that she can’t even tell her best friends that she didn’t go through with it, it gets really apparent in this episode that a lot of the ballsiness we saw from her in the first episode… it’s an act, it’s a put-on. She doesn’t want people to pity her, so she works really hard to look cool and together. But she’s not. DANI: Whoa. Before we get to far, I wanted to point out a silly fun fact. The book that Devi is reading in her ridiculous Paxton fantasy is a novel trilogy based on some Harry Styles/Original Character fanfiction smut. Kind of like Fifty Shades of Grey was originally Twilight fanfiction. Also Darren apparently got pretty close to actually getting the lead role in the film adaptation of it and his fans campaigned for it pretty hard. I think that’s why it might be included as the book she’s reading—you know a little dig at him. But instead that character ended up being played by the actor who played a very young Voldemort in the Half- Blood Prince movie. The more you know! CLARA: Whoa! So very Important question -- did you google that or did you already know it? Cause… DANI: I already knew this… I have never read the book but I always end up on all these long rabbit trails, and I was like “heh. wonder what the random actor from Harry Potter is doing…” and then I found out about that book, and I thought it sounded atrocious so… but I won’t be the judge of people if they’re into that, that’s their taste… But. I remembered hearing about that book and the fanfiction it was based off. As for the part about Darren almost playing that character, it was listed under trivia on IMDB, and I’m just a nerd when it comes to random pop culture facts that no one cares about. CLARA: Okay. So I’m glad you explained all that, I’m glad you’re not kink-shaming anyone. But I also wanted to circle back to that because you said that Devi fails a lot in this episode and I kinda wanted to ask what you meant by that. DANI: I feel like she just keeps getting rejected and failing in general. Whether it be around Paxton, and not being able to go through with having sex—I mean it happens twice in the same episode. CLARA: Yeah it does. DANI: So I wouldn’t say a full-on fail, but not living up to her expectations. CLARA: Okay. Yeah I can see that. DANI: So, moving on, I’m really happy that therapy is established as a regular thing for Devi. I think Dr. Ryan is really insightful. She tries really hard to not let Devi get away with her bullshit, and she’s really funny doing it. CLARA: Yeah, so I like her a lot too. And part of it is: my therapist is like that. She’s not funny like Dr. Ryan, but she calls me out on my bullshit, and that’s really important. I’ve had therapists who… very much let me lead and they wouldn’t really confront me about anything… and that just doesn’t work for me, because as a person in general I will do just about anything to avoid talking about or dealing with my feelings if you let me. And that’s totally Devi, at least in this context as well, right? She’s terrified to actually process her dad’s death or talk about it. Because I think she feels like if she does, that’s when it’s going to be real that he’s gone. DANI: Yeah, I get that. And grief is so hard to process, and you really see her shutting down anyone who tries to have a real conversation with her most of the time… except Ben. She seems to let him in a lot more than others. CLARA: That’s ‘cause she LOOOVES him! DANI: But I want to get into Devi’s friendships with Eleanor and Fabiola. Devi has a wildly active imagination, as we’ve established. She lies to her friends about Paxton and what was said during their “let’s have sex” conversation. They think she’s actually unhinged, which makes me feel like it’s not the first time that they’ve been down this road. They seem genuinely surprised when they see Devi leave in Paxton’s car. So what do you think of that? CLARA: Well, you say they think she’s unhinged. I think they see and love Devi for who she is, which is a smart, but kind of delusional teen girl who’s pretty prone to exaggeration. And Eleanor is SUPER dramatic, so of course she is totally fine with a friend who is totally dramatic and in her own world, head in the clouds. And Fabiola is lying to herself about a few things (more on that as we get more into her sexuality later in the season), so it’s not a surprise that she would be sympathetic, too. And I think they presumably know that Devi has been obsessed with Paxton for a while. They know that seeing him is part of what made her walk again, so they probably just figure she’s projecting that fantasy into reality. And there’s that line at some point in the episode where they’re like “we’ll tell you the harsh truth, even if you end up in a wheelchair again”. I think on some level they figure her fantasies are harmless, because reality to a certain extent is dangerous for her. I don’t think that’s true, but I think they don’t really know how to deal with the way that she’s been navigating all of the real shit in her life. And they don’t really know what they should be doing or when they should intervene when she’s like in this fantasy world. When they find out she’s not delusional at this particular time—or at least not fully delusional and they see her get in the car with him, they are understandably kinda shocked. DANI: This is also the first time we see Eve, Fabiola’s crush, and her queerness is confirmed! I thought it was really cute. They were obviously instantly vibing with eachother. And I just love how it was like that trope of girl walking down the stairs and Fabiola is just like staring at her all dumb-faced. Then with Eleanor… She went out of her way to try and apologize big time to Devi, and I feel like Devi won’t even actually give her the time of day, and I think it kind of upset me a little bit. Eleanor made an apology video and she won’t even watch it? She just launches into talking about herself. And I feel like it’s our first real glance at how bad of a friend Devi can be. What do you think about these two things? CLARA: Okay so a couple things. One I really like that Fabiola’s first girl is named Eve, like THE first girl. That’s gotta be intentional! Um… DANI: Maybe CLARA: But this is what I meant when I said before that Fabiola is lying to herself. She’s not ready to accept that she’s queer, which is totally relatable. I have really accepting parents, but even so, I think it took me a while to accept that I was Bi. And I think even just to understand what it meant for me or about me. As for Eleanor and the way Devi treats her as a friend… I mean it’s a bit of a dick move for Devi not to watch that video, but honestly I’m not sure I would want to either. It’s probably long and dramatic and just to be totally real, Eleanor makes apology videos for everything. Like she was five minutes late to meet you, she makes an apology video. DANI: Ugh. I hope not CLARA: But come on! DANI: This is true though. She probably does, and yes… accepting being queer is different for everyone, obviously. It was a really long journey for me to really figure out exactly how queer I was, if that makes sense. I went from kind of like knowing I had crushes on my friends, and these female celebrity crushes, to kind of thinking that “oh if you're in a relationship with a guy you’re straight now”… to realizing that that’s not the case either. I also wasn’t sure for a long time if I was just bisexual and not biromantic… which obviously as you know, I am 100% both. I never really came out though… people just knew. Except my mom apparently, because she was very shocked... In which I responded to her with “have you seen all the pictures of both MEN AND WOMEN ON MY WALLS?” Both my older brothers and myself actually all identify as queer in some way, and my parents are accepting… but they don’t get it. CLARA: Yeah it’s funny because I think my parents were super accepting and they had queer friends who were out who were around me when I was a kid. But for some reason I think I got it in my head that I didn’t have to tell them, that they would just figure it out. I think I thought they wouldn’t assume that I was just straight. And so the way that I came out to my parents— each separately, because they didn’t live together when I was figuring all this stuff out— my Mom told me that I couldn’t go to a sleepover party where there were guys and I was like “Mom you know that I sleep with girls too” and that was how I came out to her apparently. And then, I can’t remember exactly what it was with my Dad, But I said it casually in conversation and he went “Oh I didn’t know that you liked girls” and I was like “Who did you think Jennifer was, did you think that we were just friends?” DANI: For me I can see why my parents were a little surprised in that I didn’t have a girlfriend for a really, really long time. My Dad didn’t find out until I had a girlfriend, but that’s more the fact that I just don’t really talk to him that much. With my Mom I was a bit surprised that she didn’t just figure it out. But at the same time, she was always that kind of person who was like “I don’t mind if you’re gay, but it would be really hard for me to have a child that’s…” Like she would just say stuff like that, so I think for me it was really hard to have that conversation with her. CLARA: Yeah, yeah, understandably! DANI: But like I didn’t not… tell her either. It just kinda was never established. And I never actually “told her” told her, she found out because I was on Facebook and sharing a post about other bisexual people and I was like “I am proud to be amongst them” and she was like “What? The fuck?” CLARA: That happened to a friend of mine like two years ago on national coming out day. I think she had participated in some manner before, but she did it on Facebook thinking that her parents already knew. And then she had many awkward conversations with family over the next few weeks. Anyway, moving on! DANI: Yes moving on. There are so many moments throughout the show that I almost die of second-hand embarrassment on Devi’s behalf… she just keeps on doing it. Like when she walks up to Paxton’s group with ZERO fucks to give and just like talks to him. He’s so clearly embarrassed she even dare approach him with his friend. And that blows my mind. They don’t seem to care too much about her presence until she backs away and awkwardly says “later skater”... CLARA: Oh my god… DANI: I’m sure most of them don’t even know her name. Like her ability to just do stuff like that though really amazes me. I know I couldn’t do that… like we discussed in the last episode: her just approaching Paxton about sleeping with her. I was actually into a popular guy when I was in middle school, so when she’s kind of shunned in front of his group of friends, it immediately made me dislike Paxton just for that. In middle school though, the guy I liked, everyone liked him. He was just that guy. I was really delusional when it came to this guy in every aspect. So I definitely relate to Devi in that way. He was like on the basketball team and he was a jock. I even tried to change myself to get his attention… that’s something I really hope Devi doesn’t do. I was so pathetic when it came to this guy. And he knew it. He absolutely knew it. Funny thing is though later on in High School he totally tried to like hit me up to get lunch with him… I was like: “Fuck no!” That actually happened to me a decent amount because I was no longer a “goth kid“. Did you ever pine after a popular kid and did you ever do anything quite as embarrassing as Devi? CLARA: Well first I have to address the “later skater” because it also kinda reminded me of “Mean Girls,” when Cady says “Grool” when she’s talking to Aaron Samuels. But to answer your question more directly, I had a crush on a girl who was kind of popular in 11th grade, but it was both pretty minor crush and she was one of those girls who was popular because she was nice. I dunno I think it was just a non-issue. Also I had a boyfriend at the time, so whatever. Other than that, almost all of my crushes were nerdy people. I asked out almost everyone I dated in high school, I mostly dated guys in high school. I did kinda do what you were talking about: I did sort of latch onto the interests of, like, every guy I ever dated (not the girls, which I think says something interesting about patriarchy, but that’s a topic for another day), and I did write some pretty embarrassing love notes to people I was interested in. So this is less a story of an embarrassing thing I did and more a story of something really embarrassing that happened to me, I feel like we are going to unpack a lot of high school trauma in this podcast by the way. But I dated this one guy for ACTUALLY four days, because after four days he told me he loved me and...no. And we’re friends now, and we were friends for most of high school. I eventually set him up with another friend of mine and they dated for three years. But immediately after he was really bitter (which I kind of get -- no one wants the response to “I love you” to be “We have to break up”), and he told a bunch of his friends. And one of them who I didn’t know… I mean I sort of knew of, but I didn’t know well - wrote this parody screenplay about it, which he called “The Clara Bitch Project,” and spread all over school. So of course I end up finding it and I was really pissed. But I think to their credit I confronted them both and they immediately apologised and were like: “we were being so stupid, didn’t even think about how hurtful it would actually be…” you know yada yada yada. But it was still pretty embarrassing. DANI: That is pretty deplorable and I’m glad they apologized to you. CLARA: Mmhmm. I’m gonna send this to one of them DANI: The shortest amount of time I dated someone was one single lunch period… we decided nah friends is better almost immediately CLARA: Ah young love! DANI: I think the worst [highschool situation] though, is I was dating this one guy for a few weeks and he straight up broke up with me on AOL instant messenger. CLARA: Oh no! what a douche! DANI: I think personally I’d rather be ghosted, which is more popular these days. And I also had a habit of writing embarrassing letters about “people I’ve loved”. That’s kind of how I would let people go, it kind of reminded me of that- CLARA: Like: P.S. I love you? DANI: Yeah. Like: to all the boys I’ve ever loved before CLARA: Oh yeah sorry, that’s the one DANI: Yeah, that’s the second one CLARA: Yeah High school’s super embarrassing… basically all the time. DANI: Yes. So I’m going to lump the rest of the Devi and Paxton storyline into one so we can move on. First of all I want to say that I absolutely love how Sex positive and open and honest about teen sex the show is. It isn’t really encouraging it or discouraging it. When Devi was like “I think about sex 24/7, but I don’t know how to do it.” That just really reminded me of me when I was her age.. And it’s true. I don’t think I knew a single person who wasn’t obsessed with talking about sex, but they weren’t actually doing it. I was telling dirty jokes since I was in like 5th grade. CLARA: What were your fifth grade dirty jokes? DANI: I mean I can’t remember, but I know that I was telling them. I was obsessed with the movie American Pie when I was like 8 years old. Like what the fuck. And I probably didn’t understand half of what was going on. But it was one of those things back then to be like “Oh I saw the South-park movie, oh my god, super R-rated”. It’s not like that these days. Yeah, It took me quite a while to actually get to the point where sex was a thing, but like it’s just very real and honest, the way that the show approaches sex. CLARA: Took you a while to be ready to bone? DANI: Yeah, CLARA: Yeah I appreciate it to, I think it’s really important to acknowledge that teenagers have sex and think about sex. It’s sort of an important part of being a teenager— coming to terms with that. But we get all these super puritanical messages about what sex is and how it’s going to destroy your life and everyone is going to get pregnant and get diseases and it’s going to be horrible! “You will get chlamydia and die!” CLARA: The koalas are doing just fine with their chlamydia. But I think it is really important that there are shows that show teens that sex is normal and you can do it in ways that won’t cause diseases or pregnancy and die, and just treat it as a thing. But I really love the scene that you’re talking about, where she’s like “I think about sex 24/7 but I don’t know how to do it” and then they end up doing Kegels in her room with the Wikipedia article open. that was just comedic gold. DANI: The look on Eleanor’s face is just open wide, and she’s just not even trying. She’s like “no” CLARA: Perfect. DANI: So in this episode, Devi tries to have sex with Paxton twice, and both times fails. The first time he immediately takes off his shirt and has her touch his chest, which I just thought was ridiculous. But she just short circuits immediately and pats his shoulder, and then dips. And then hurts herself in the process. She’s a GRADE A KLUTZ. The second time she gets a shot at sex with him, she is of course nervous and hilarity ensues again as she boops his nose and then says “i wouldn’t want to pee, while we’re ya know… doing it”... which I was just dead for one, but then she SPRAYS HER VAJEAN WITH PURFUME… GURLLLL NO. This brings us though to meeting Paxton’s sister Rebecca, who has down syndrome. She’s very sweet, funny and fashionable, and Devi and her get along immediately. Paxton finds them talking and kicks Devi out. There seems to be a lot to unpack with Paxton here, and he seems embarrassed almost but immediately accuses Devi of thinking he’s ashamed of her. What do you think of this moment, and of Paxton’s relationship to his family? CLARA: So I think Paxton’s really protective of his sister, but I also think he is really image-conscious. Part of this is because nothing that Devi says could reasonably be interpreted to mean SHE thinks he’s embarrassed of his sister. So that makes me think he’s gotta have some shame over the fact that he let his friends make fun of her and let them be dicks to her, and he probably did that because he was afraid of losing his popularity and status. And in some teeny-tiny place of his heart, he knew that that’s what would happen if he didn’t. And that’s the teeny shred of embarrassment that he has. Or guilt or shame or some cocktail of gross emotions. But I also think that while Devi was pretending to herself that sex with Paxton wouldn’t mean anything to her, for Paxton that was actually true. It was just sex for him. Until the moment when she comes into contact with his sister. And then, when that happens and she sees a part of him that is real, that is pretty intimate – like something that he holds pretty close to his heart and has a lot of complicated feelings about – that’s when he immediately shut it down. DANI: he definitely pushed her away. Paxton definitely has a lot to figure out about himself before he can successfully have anything with Devi (or anyone) that is real. I mean she does too. So after this encounter, she tries again to talk to Paxton at school, and he flat out IGNORES her and laughs with his friends. CLARA: DIIICK DANI: It’s pretty fucking mean. Like I see people saying Ben is mean to Devi, but like Paxton at times can be DOWNRIGHT cruel. Why do you think that is? And his friends are laughing too… so do you think he told them anything? CLARA: well this is the image-conscious thing again. And this is why I don’t think Paxton and Devi can ever be right for each other. He’s too defensive and when he wants to hurt her, he does it without a second thought, and he goes for the jugular. DANI: Taurus CLARA: What was that? DANI: I said Cough Taurus CLARA: Oh yeah He’s also way afraid of intimacy, and Devi craves it—she really needs it after her dad’s death, even though she won’t admit it, and like tries to avoid it in weird ways. As for whether he said anything to his friends, they definitely share a knowing look, but I don’t know what he would have said. I don’t think he would have told them the truth— I don’t think he would have gone into all the shit that happened with his sister. So maybe what he said was something like: Oh she threw herself at him, or he told them about the first time when she came over to have sex with him and bailed. I don’t think he told them anything real either. DANI: Yeah. I think if anything it is definitely “oh she’s obsessed with me” kind of thing. CLARA: Yeah, yeah. DANI: Why do you think Devi lied to her friends? I thought it was a little bit too blunt of Eleanor to say everyone felt sorry for her. Like I was surprised that she said it that way to Devi. CLARA: I’m not super surprised that she said it. I think Eleanor is very emotional and sensitive in certain ways, but she’s not always aware of how other people who are not so emotional all the time are going to handle things. But I think what Eleanor said is really it, right? And John McEnroe even says it in the narration. Devi doesn’t want pity. She wants people to think she’s cool and that she has her shit together. So when Eleanor really just puts that choice in front of her: "you can have everyone in the school continue to pity you, or have everyone be jealous of you and think you have the perfect life” of course she chooses the latter. She’s not an emotionally mature human being. DANI: So the final part in this episode with Paxton is him actually apologizing to her. Which I was actually kind of surprised he did that. I wonder if he talked to his sister about it, if seeing her outburst towards Ben and how deeply hurt she actually is prompted his apology. I feel like the moment at the end though was really genuine, and him looking back at her you can see that he is starting to develop actual feelings for Devi. I was almost convinced in these early episodes that Daxton would be good endgame… also out of solidarity of convincing the popular kid to give you the time of day. I could not stop laughing at her mom creepin’ in the back the whole conversation too. CLARA: Nalini is amazing. What does she say at some point? She says something… I don’t remember what it was, it just reminded me… I had a boyfriend in high school and his family is super religious. And I think I was just dropping him off and we were just kissing goodbye and his Mom was looking through the window and she just shouted “no smooching on the sidewalk” something like that DANI: I can’t remember what it is, she says something through the window though. CLARA: Yeah, it reminded of that. I don’t know, for me I don’t think that this made me think that they could be good together. ‘Cause the fact that he could do it to her in the first place makes him really bad for her in my mind. Just the level of cruelty and the way that—like I said, when he wants to hurt her, he goes for the jugular. He doesn’t hold back anything. I think they both have a lot of growing to do as individuals, and they both need a lot of support. And I could see how 10 years from now they could maybe be good for eachother if they went into their growing and came back. The thing is when you’re going through something as big as your dad dying, or as big as trying to figure out how to be a fucking decent human being about your sister’s neuro-atypicality… you got a lot of shit to deal with, and you’re not necessarily gonna have the space to help other people through their big things. DANI: Yeah CLARA: So Classic case, and I won’t get into the details, but how Devi handles Fabiola and Eleanor’s ~~big issues~~ later in the season. She does a terrible job and I think that’s basically because her mind is so preoccupied with her big thing. DANI: I definitely agree with you, I don’t think that they would work, I think it would take a long, long time. In the first couple of episodes I was willing to give them t he time of day, but as it goes along I was like “mmmm…” I think they would make really good friends though. CLARA: Yeah, I think so. I think if they can get over a tiny bit of their shit and get over whatever their romantic feelings are toward each other… then they could really be there for each other in ways that matter and are helpful. DANI: There are a few things I want to touch on before we move onto BEN, of course. Exposing some layers in Devi’s family, and they’re starting to get pulled back. Kamala is revealed to have a boyfriend, a cute dopey guy named Steve. I think they are really cute together. They are both these incredibly smart, but just dopey characters… which is fun. And then Nalini is revealed to be unable to have children anymore other than Devi… which I feel like really lends to how she acts sometimes with Devi, and with Kamala as well. What do you think? CLARA: Yeah. I wasn’t sure if Nalini was unable to actually have more children, or if she just miscarried at some point after she had Devi. Miscarriages are actually really common – I looked it up and it’s something like 10-15% of all pregnancies end in miscarriages, which is way higher than I thought. And they’re pretty traumatic, right? You think that you’re having a baby, you get attached to the idea of being a parent, of having a child, and then it doesn’t work out. But they’re still pretty rarely depicted in TV and film (at least in any meaningful way). And even here, we only get this glancing look. One big thing I think is that Nalini is struggling to deal with Mohan’s death too, and she’s being really introverted as she grieves him. Kind of like how Devi doesn’t want to talk about it with her therapist, I think Nalini is afraid to really get into it with Devi because it’ll make it too real for her. So they just struggle alone and bitch at each other. DANI: I think I would really love to see maybe a less positive memory of Mohan in the future. He seems like the perfect husband and perfect Dad, and that’s just so rarely the case. CLARA: Yeah I think it’s a serious case of rose-coloured glasses, and I agree with you, I really want to see him come down off that pedestal a little bit. I actually think we’re gonna get there. Because when we start to see more of what happened the night he died later in the series, I wouldn’t say that it’s painting him in a negative light, but I do think that you can interpret some of the way that he acts with Devi in general and the things that make her idolise him so much. If you look at that from Nalini’s perspective, I think you that you can interpret that as making Nalini be the bad guy -- which is a very real and often really gendered thing. Like, Dads get to be the fun parent and moms have to be the ones who lay down the law and stuff. So I feel like very slowly the show starts to set the stage for Mohan as a full human and not just as a perfect ghost. DANI: perfect ghost! Okay, so… let’s talk about Benjamin Gross. DANI and CLARA together: Always! DANI: The Devi and Ben banter is amazing. I’m curious how much of it is Adlibbed because the actors said that they had a lot of freedom with the characters and actually adlibbed a lot. CLARA: “Your mum’s Chest hair!” Sorry. DANI: The tension there between them is sort of obvious. Ben definitely has a crush on her that he hasn’t admitted to himself. Just priceless. I’ll get into some of that banter when we get to the favorite lines segment of our podcast, but just like in his tone and his reactions to things she says just makes his feelings quite apparent. I find it crazy that there are people unwilling to ship them… like that kind of banter is the ROM COM DREAM. But let’s get into their not-so-positive interaction. When Devi says out loud in front of everyone “I wish nazi’s had killed Ben” I was FUCKING PISSED at her CLARA: As you should be. DANI: The way his face genuinely falls afterwards, just so hurt. They do make up, but before we talk about that, I want to have a conversation with you about this, and the fact you’re Jewish. Tell me about your feelings in this scene, Clara. CLARA: Well OBVIOUSLY I think it’s a dick move, I also think that we’ve already seen that Devi goes too far. It’s not super surprising, I think it’s just a part of her personality and her lashing out about a lot of things. She boils over, she doesn’t realise even how awful the things she says are sometimes, until it’s too late. And we have a big example of that later in the series between her and Nalini. So I think this was another example of that. You were asking me about Principal Grubbs in the scene where she confronts him the other day, too, and how she really trips over the word “Jew.” Do you want to talk about that? DANI: Yeah, let’s get into it. What I was saying to you is it seems like the word “Jew” is a slur in the same way “Queer” is. And the Principal won’t even say the word. CLARA: So first I should say I’m not an expert, and obviously I can’t speak on behalf of all Jews. I think probably the best analogy in a lot of ways, is that the word “Jew” is like the word “Black” to a lot of middle-class white people. I think especially if you grew up in… I mean in my generation even, but a little bit older— my parent’s generation— “Black” was almost seen as a dirty word, because I think people didn’t understand that the problem wasn’t with blackness, it was with whiteness. And so we all got taught in school to say “African-American” even though a lot of black people are not African-American! So I think “Jew” is kinda like that. In World War 2, of course, the Germans put the word “Jew” everywhere as a way of identifying Jews and of being derogatory towards them and insulting them. And so coming out of that I think even there were Jews who felt like the word “Jew” was something to avoid. But I think it’s that same way right? Like it’s not because it’s actually a slur, I mean it literally just means the literal term for someone who is Jewish who is of Hebrew Ancestry and faith or whatever. But the way that it got used to say “Jews are bad” is sort of how it gained that offensive flavour. I honestly don’t know that I personally know any other people who are Jewish who have a problem calling themselves Jews or with other people calling them Jews currently. It might be different with my parent’s generation, like my aunts and uncles. I don’t really feel like it is but I could check at some point. But one thing I will say is that if Jew is used as a verb, it is absolutely offensive and a slur. And my grandfather on the non-Jewish side used to play “Jew” as a scrabble word because until fairly recently it was there in the scrabble dictionary as a fucking verb. And that is horrible, and I’m glad it’s not anymore. So that’s what I know… Shrug? DANI: Yeah I feel like Ben’s reaction is like: “You can say the word”. CLARA: Yeah, yeah exactly! DANI: It does kinda remind me of the Queer debate, you know. Some people are really, really comfortable saying Queer and identifying as queer, and so many others are like “It’s a slur, don’t say it”. So, I think it reminds me of that a lot. But we shouldn’t get into that, that’s a whole ‘nother… TOGETHER: Can of worms DANI: These kids make up way quicker than you would think. When Devi starts crying, and gets really dark for a second, I feel like you can see Ben’s soul die a little bit. He cannot stand seeing her genuinely hurt. And this isn’t the only time that that happens, it’s a trend for Ben to literally be kind in a moment that she doesn’t necessarily deserve it, because she’s sad. That is love, that is real love. Which is a big reason I’m team Ben. We’ll get into those moments more as the series progresses but this one is pretty major. They have a heart to heart afterwards, and like I think in this scene Ben is starting to realize he might have feelings for Devi. He smiles into his locker as she walks away. I feel like you can tell he’s really aching to be with someone that he actually matters to, because clearly his relationship with Shira is not ideal. Ultimately though, sometimes I’m not sure she [Devi] deserves Ben...I’ve been talking about their potential relationship a lot. What do you think about Ben and Devi, and their interactions in this episode? CLARA: Yeah I think everything you said is spot on. Her reaction is definitely a little white girl tears, even though she’s not white. Aside from the one interaction, though, I like that we get to see a little more of their banter, and when Ben answers for her about the Romani, it’s the first glimpse we really get of their academic competitiveness in action. We heard about it in the pilot, and we saw the little montage of them at various ages with various trophies, but this is the first time we really see what it’s like day to day. They have a long way to go, I think, before they can be friends, much less lovers, but I think that their teasing interactions near the lockers set up the path for them in a nice way. And Re: Ben and Shira: I found it so telling that he tries to give her relationship advice. I feel like anytime someone starts humble-bragging about their relationship or whatever – is that even what it was? I don’t know! – It’s like a weird way that he’s bragging about his relationship with Shira, you just know immediately that that relationship is doomed. But yeah, TL;DR: banter good, Hitler bad. DANI: So are there any last thoughts about anything before we move onto fashion? CLARA: Nah, I think that’s most of it. I think “banter good, Hitler bad” is a good note to end on. DANI: I thought I didn’t have too many fashion notes… but apparently I do CLARA: I called you OUT! DANI: I actually really like Fabiola’s outfit in the beginning of the episode- CLARA: The overalls over the like- DANI: Yeah. She really rocks those overalls. Devi’s outfit at the beginning of school is mostly cute. I’m not a fan of the shorts per se… but it’s a very busy outfit and It’s not as bad when she takes the cardigan off, but I really like the top half of it. And I also really like the star sweater she wears in the scene our clip is from. And Ben’s outfit here is actually not too bad… I like his top. CLARA: Well it’s basically just like a regular Hoodie, right? DANI: No it’s a shirt. It’s like a button-up shirt. CLARA: Oh okay, I was thinking of a different outfit then. DANI: They weren’t a lot of outfits in this show. I mean as teens do. Clearly Rebecca is very fashion forward. And I really like her as a character and her budding friendship with Devi. She dresses, obviously, like a fashion icon. And so many of the kids— I noticed that they wear shirts that rep their school, I found that very odd. I don’t think I knew anyone that wore Pioneer High-school shirts when I was in high-school CLARA: Maybe they were going to PE? DANI: Maybe? Plaid seems to be all the rage at this school. CLARA: It’s more like returning to the 90s. We were talking about this last time, the plaid obsession is very 90s. DANI: I’ve been saying— within my group chats about this show— that they need to have a 90s themed party or halloween(? Around 40.35 ish) [a]type thing. Or dance. CLARA: Prom! DANI: Because I would love to see them dressed as 90s characters. You know Trent would make a perfect— CLARA: He already is a 90s character! DANI: Yeah obviously! But he would make a perfect Wayne from Wayne’s World, or Dave Grohl when he was in Nirvana CLARA: I was thinking about this—you’ll have posted this picture by then, but when you sent me the picture of your Trent cosplay, that is exactly what I was thinking about. I actually have a picture from like a 90s party 2 years ago of me dressed like Garth from Wayne’s world— I should send it to you and you can post those two together. DANI: I don’t have one of me dressed as Wayne, but I have dressed as Wayne so… obviously. Devi and Ben wear a lot of plaid in some form or another. Towards the end of the episode, they both need to have the fashion police called on them. Like Devi is wearing these plaid pants… but she has a maroon shirt tucked in, and the shirt’s really nice, I think the top is nice… but she also has a jean jacket on top. I think it’s just too much at once. And Ben… my sweet summer child. It’s not too bad at first glance. It’s a nice jacket. There’s bit of red on it, which brings out his eyes. But he has a gray shirt tucked into KHAKIS that ALSO HAVE A RED STRIPE down the side… WHY. Why does he do this? Everything is fine until you see some element of it that just completely ruins it. And he’s also wearing a Rastafarian-looking belt to top it off. He’s lucky that I love him because he’s gonna get.. he’s gotta be roasted. Because his fashion is just so bad! And then my last note would be Kamala when she’s talking to her prospective husband’s parents. I can’t tell if it’s her prospective husband or her parents...i’m not entirely sure, but she looks so beautiful. CLARA: I think it’s the prospective husband, yeah. DANI: She looks so beautiful. And I always love Kamala’s hair, it’s so perfect. Which isn’t necessarily fashion but kind of is. And I love Devi’s hair. They just have really nice hair, and jealous of it. CLARA: Okay so you took a lot of fashion options off the plate for me, but I really liked— DANI: Which is usually the other way around! CLARA: I know! This is what happens when you host a podcast, you pay more attention to fashion, that’s just what it is. I really liked Devi’s plaid pants, which I think you already mentioned, and Eleanor’s outfit in the beginning -- the pink maxi skirt with the blue patterned top and the scarf as headband. A lot of the time Eleanor’s outfits are too much for me, but this felt just perfect. Creative, showy, but still mostly elegant. I wouldn’t say understated. But stated! DANI: Just stated. Alrighty. So let’s get into one-liners. There’s a lot here so we’re gonna switch off on them. Back-and-forth. CLARA: Alright so, you marked this down but I 100% agree. The entire opening dream sequence with Paxton is hilarious and then the “and is that dandruff shampoo?”… just delivered perfectly. Darren Barnett—total kudos for that delivery. DANI: There’s also a point where she tells her friends about what happened. How he asked her to have sex with him and Darren’s delivery is perfect there as well. So the next one would be: “If you were ready to bone, you wouldn’t use the phrase ‘ready to bone’ ” CLARA: That’s right Dr Ryan. And then you marked this one down: “Is this kid on HGH” hmm is he? DANI: Is he? I don’t think he is but it made me laugh. “There are people in Siberia who would kill to be this hot.” The amount of POC families that I know refuse to use A/C. This is really more of a comical stereotype thing. Some of them are just too true. In fresh off the boat, there’s an episode about how the kids find out that there’s a dishwasher. And went their whole lives thinking that it was a drying rack. My family also told me that though. My grandma uses it though now, but it’s just so funny, those little things. CLARA: Yeah. My grandparents who were second-generation immigrants—I think they had a lot of those stories too. Just for the sake of frugality. But I think a lot of it is just about financial insecurity. Right? Not being 100% sure of your place in this new place that you’ve moved to and wanting to make sure that your family is safe, that can go to extremes. Like we don’t use A/C because it saves us money and we don’t really need it. And if we save money then we’re safe. Whatever happens. So we’ve already talked about this a lot. But the other one is obviously when Devi says “later skater”. DANI: Yeah. Everyone’s faces—they’re just so confused. It’s pretty epic. The next line is: “You should have thought about your bagel bites before you called me a BITCH” CLARA: That was I think my favourite line in the entire episode. It’s so good and such a mother-daughter thing. DANI: It was! It was just so grade A. I just love the way she accentuates “Bitch!” CLARA: “It’s like one of those tubes of Pillsbury cookie dough… YUM YUM.” Fabiola’s you’re such a nerd! DANI: I just took it as: she’s going to say something really weird because she’s super-gay, and she just doesn’t know what to say. That’s totally what I took it as. CLARA: I think she’s gonna say something super-weird because she gets along with robots better than people. DANI: That is true. But her follow-up when they’re talking about sex and she just [says]: “To the foot”. She just looks to the side. CLARA: That is so good! DANI: The next one is: “I wont be able to walk again tomorrow, because i’m about to go get railed. PEACE OUT, VIRGIN”. Which was in our clip. But Ben’s facial expression is everything but it also totally gives his feelings away for her. He’s so affected by it. CLARA: And this is the last one you put on there but obviously it’s great. So: “So sorry about your polio”. Nalini must have been so confused. DANI: She was so confused but at the same time I was just shaking my head because I was just like: No Paxton! CLARA: Okay so those were the one-liners that you pulled out. And obviously I think they’re great. But there were a few others I wanted to add. So one is Devi’s line that’s honestly a little too noticeable because of some bad ADR, but the line itself was gold. “I got fired from retail. They said my hands were too sweaty to fold clothes.” DANI: I totally relate to that. CLARA: And it’s small, but I also really like when Fabiola says, “Oh my double god.” ‘Cause it sounds like something that I would say. And of course, “I WISH I was a dead body on the 101.” Devi, get your shit together. DANI: Simultaneously I couldn’t stop laughing but also felt so bad for her. CLARA: Mood. DANI: Alright, so it’s time for MVPs. I’ll start this time around. This one was really hard… I could probably give it to Maitreyi like every episode, but I think my MVP for this episode actually goes to Lee Rodriguez who plays Fabiola because just like Jaren and Maitreyi last episode, she has these really awesome facial expressions that goes with everything she says, and I just can’t get over it, and the delivery of some of her lines: “YUM YUM”. But I think if I had to have a runner-up it would probably be Darren Barnet for similar reasons… and I truly wonder how many times he had to film some of the lines in the dream sequence because I would break. CLARA: I think I’m going to give mine to Darren for actually slightly different reasons. I really thought how he turned and we got to see a different side of him—and a very different acting challenge for Darren—after he encountered his sister and Devi by the bathroom. I thought that was a really good… It showed a lot of his range that we didn’t get to see in the first episode as much. I also like the way that he plays Paxton in the fake “Let’s have sex” conversation. That was so good! So I’m going to give it to Darren for this one. DANI: Whip smart! So. Clara. Ratings time. What worked for you and what didn’t work? CLARA: I’m gonna be honest I completely forgot that we’re doing that for this episode so I didn’t really put a lot of thought into it. But off the top of my head, I do think this episode wasn’t quite as acerbically funny as the first one. The scenes that I liked tended to be a little more understated too. I really liked the scene where they were trying to do Kegels off a Wikipedia article. I thought that was hilarious. I really like the fake “let’s have sex conversation”. I love the beginning conversation (both dream sequence and the conversation that Devi has with Dr Ryan). I felt like some of the interactions between Devi and her friends didn’t quite get to me as they do in the first episode and as they do in later episodes. But I think it was a really strong episode nonetheless. I mean this show is so great right? I mean, what are you going to do. Anyway. What about you? DANI: So for me it was similar to how I felt about the pilot. We’re still in the set up phase of the season, and I feel like it’s still being done really well. Nothing ever feels out of place or too soon or too much. The Ben and Devi banter in this episode is *chefs kiss*. I have a hard time knowing there are people out there that don’t ship them? I’m going to probably bring this up all of the time. CLARA: You will. I know you—you will. DANI: I loved seeing Fabiola come out of her shell a little, and seeing the beginnings of her coming out story. As someone who realized they were queer in high school, it’s really nice to see lovely coming out stories that take place in high school. And I think it’s really important. There really isn’t anything that didn’t work for me, other than the fact that I just want to know more background on some of the characters. This episode really made me want to know more about Paxton especially. Do you have any last thoughts? CLARA: “banter good, Hitler bad” DANI: And with that, I think we’ve come to the end of our show. Listeners, thank you for joining us. If you liked this episode, you can subscribe online wherever you get your podcasts. And you can follow us on Twitter or instagram @nhie_podcast. Bye! CLARA: ‘Never Have I Ever… Hosted a Podcast’ is produced and hosted by Dani Lowry, with Co-host Clara Sherley-Appel. Saxon Ahern is our sound engineer, and Lanier Sammons wrote our theme. CLARA: Mind-slut DANI: The shortest amount of time that I dated someone was one single lunch-period. We decided: “Nah friends is better—" [a]Not sure I heard this one properly-- Ive got the time stamp next to it in case you want to hear over it and double-check I didn't just make it up haha :) @claras@gmail.com