TRANSCRIPT - NHIE – 1x06 DANI: Welcome back to “Never Have I Ever… Hosted a Podcast”. I’m Dani CLARA: and I’m Clara DANI: and today we will be discussing the sixth episode titled “Never Have I Ever… Been the loneliest boy in the world” (Written by Aaron Geary and Ben Steiner, and Directed by Kabir Akhtar) CLARA: Yep, and before we get too deep into things, I’m going to let Ben and Nalini tell us a little bit about what is going on in this episode. [clip from Never Have I ever plays: Ben is at Devi’s house having dinner with her family, crying. Nalini asks Ben if he’s okay. He says that he hasn’t had dinner with anyone in a long time, but then tries to cover up his emotions saying that he thinks he was just allergic to something, and asserts that his life is “totally awesome”.] DANI: So, Clara, what did you think of this episode? CLARA: Well, you know, this is the episode I think we’ve talked about the most between the two of us. So you know I love this episode. I always love a good perspective shift, but I also think this is a nice time in the season for it. Obviously perspective shift to Ben, so something with regards to your theory, which I’m sure we’ll talk about later! But it’s good, there’s some really good comedic moments in this. I love the Rick and Morty catfishing moment. And of course, your favourite meme of all time: Devi venmo’ing $5 to Ben so that he doesn’t have to eat pizza with paedophiles anymore. DANI: It’s very cute moment. CLARA: But yeah, it’s a good solid episode. It does a good job of bringing in a perspective other than Devi’s. And I think that’s really important because she’s so mired in her own perspective all the time. And it creates some sympathy for Ben and creates some sympathy for her. I think it does a lot of good things. What about you? DANI: This is legitimately my actual 100% FAVORITE episode. CLARA: I promise this is true, as the person who’s had to hear her say all these things. This is her actual favourite episode! DANI I don’t think anyone would be surprised at this point. But It’s not only because it’s all about Ben. I love shit like this… I’m an absolute sucker for it. When someone decides to add in a new POV or anything like that whether it be a book or a tv show… I love it and I eat that shit up. Like in the second Magicians novel when all of a sudden there is a POV for Julia? CLARA: Yeah, whenever you do that it makes the whole thing richer, it’s great. DANI: Love it. I hope we have other episodes that are like it in the future. Doesn’t have to be about Ben, but of course I would welcome another Ben episode. Whenever you have more than one narrator, it also more clearly opens the door for it to possibly be an unreliable narrator. CLARA: Very god point. DANI: Immediately there is a vast difference at how Ben looks at his peers vs. Devi looking at her peers, and Andy Samberg was the absolute perfect choice to do the narration for Ben. I was sooo stoked the first time I heard his voice as the narrator. I think it’s really telling that the second person to get a POV is Ben… it makes me feel like he’s a second protagonist following Devi, or something. Also I feel like this episode is the jumping off point for Devi starting to have feelings about Ben. I would actually love to see her POV of some of these scenes of this episode. CLARA: well I think the scene with ben looking at her and Paxton by the locker, that we do see that in the previous episode, right? DANI: No I don’t think so CLARA: I thought we did, I thought we saw Paxton confront her? DANI: Paxton does confront her in the episode but they never show that Ben was looking. CLARA: Right. But it is interesting to see, that’s one thing— DANI: That overlap? CLARA: Yeah, like how different it looks from the outside. Because he sees them as a couple, and from her perspective she’s completely fucked up any chance with Paxton in that moment. DANI: So we should get on with the episode but we should definitely come back to those Ben and Devi moments later on. Unfortunately we couldn’t get Jaren on this episode to talk with us, and we really wanted him on. So hopefully we can get him for a special or something. The first thing I want to talk to you about though Clara… we’ve kind of discussed this a little bit amongst us but it wasn’t that long after the show released… but I remember I read an article that basically said they didn’t like how the show portrayed jewish people, and they came off as only stereotypes, and obviously I’m not jewish and you are, so I was wondering what you thought about that. This is the best episode to discuss this I feel like, because it’s Ben’s episode. CLARA: um, well in some ways I actually don’t think it’s the best episode to discuss it… I mean his mum is kind of stereotypical, she probably falls into the JAP (which is Jewish American Princess) stereotype. And I was actually just reading this really interesting book, it’s called “How Jews became white folks” and obviously it’s talking about Caucasian Jews, there are black Jews as well, the book was written twenty some-odd years ago. But it was really interesting the way it talked about the development of both the “Jewish Mum” (the overbearing Jewish mother) and the “Jewish American Princess” stereotypes. Those developed as Jews became more integrated. The internal stereotypes that existed, sort of became the butt of jokes outside the community, and that was a way that white people accepted Jews before Jews were fully accepted as white people themselves. So it was kind of interesting, and there was all this crossover—they’re both anti-feminist stereotypes, in addition to being weird Jewish stereotypes that sort of come out of a whole bizarre model-minority clusterfuck, is that the right word? And his mum is definitely a version of that stereotype, but also we only get her for 2 seconds. And also it is kind of a stereotype that Jews have these professional jobs (specifically like Lawyers and the Banker one is pretty bad), all sorts of stuff like that. I think the problem really is that you don’t get any of the history of that, right? There’s been a lot in Social media in recent weeks, because there’s been the whole Nick Cannon anti-Semitic rant. But there’s been a lot of people talking about where these stereotypes come from. And the Banker stereotype comes from: basically Jews weren’t allowed to do most jobs and since nobody else was allowed to be Money-lenders, Jews were forced into that profession. And it’s not the same, but the way that Jews accessed higher education in the United States pushed them toward certain professions. So I think the problem isn’t so much that Ben’s dad is a lawyer or Ben’s mum is a Jewish-American Princess. More that you don’t get the context around that. It continues that experience of there being an internal stereotype that’s a joke, like Bisexuals sitting on chairs—we can both laugh at “Bisexuals can’t sit on chairs because we’re bi” but it would get a little weird if a straight person laughed at us for that and didn’t know the context. So I think that’s probably what people are responding to. I can’t speak for other people’s perspectives but I tried to think about: Where does that criticism come from, and is it valid, and that’s where I landed. I think the problem isn’t even necessarily that Ben or his parents fit into these stereotypes, it’s that there’s no critical eye on these stereotypes when they are presented to us. Does that make sense? DANI: Yeah definitely, but I do remember when we were talking, you said something basically to the effect of: As there are lots of stereotypes, there’s also a lot that aren’t stereotypes within Ben’s story. I mean you can talk to Ben in general, not just within this episode. CLARA: Yeah, Ben is a really fleshed out character, I don’t think Ben is a stereotype. He’s driven, but so is everyone in Devi’s life—except for Paxton and the Hot-Pockets. Most of the people in Devi’s life are really ambitious and high-achieving and smart. So there is again a bit of that coming from Model-minority bullshit stereotype of Jews being high-achieving and smart and all these other things, and certainly that’s not true of everyone. But I also think you sort of expect that by virtue of the fact that he is in Devi’s circle. So I see that less about him being Jewish and more about him being in Devi’s circle. So I see that less about him being Jewish and more about him being in Devi’s circle. And the thing is he is a really complex character and in this episode you see a lot of his complexity. You see how strongly he wants family and connection in his life and really how willing he is to humiliate himself to get some of that connection to people. He is capable of being vulnerable. He has more sides to him than just that high-achieving bit. So for me that’s where I don’t think Ben is just a stereotype. I like him as a character and as a representation of Jewishness on TV because he does have so many different sides to him. Even if boy needs to learn how to dress. DANI: Boy needs to learn how to do a lot of stuff! Speaking of, rolling into it: Ben needs to ovary up… like seriously. There are two occasions in this episode alone where he is caught staring and both times he pretends like he’s not. I feel like this is a very common character trait for characters like his… who wear this mask of self-assured asshat that seem like they’re a bit loud and brash, but like Andy Samberg says in the voiceover “at home he was just another quiet lonely kid”. Like he clearly behaves the way he does because he wants people to notice him, and most people really don’t know who he is other than someone who is a nerd or has a rivalry with Devi. His own gf could care less about his presence. CLARA: Eugh, Shira! DANI: Characters consistently say they don’t know him… I mean there’s a lot there. Can we speak about that? CLARA: Okay, so very quickly going back to the other thing, Shira may also be a Jewish stereotype, and that’s one I would like to see addressed, I’d like her to get more of a personality than just… Instagram. DANI: In what way do you think she is a Jewish stereotype? I think she’s a static character for sure. CLARA: It goes back to the Jewish American Princess stereotype. Sort of vapid and very materialistic and status conscious. I think those are things very obviously things about Shira’s character, and we don’t have much else about her. But going back to your main question here. That was one of the most heart-breaking scenes in this episode, which was also super funny because of course it’s Ben Norris, was the scene with Trent and… what’s the other dude’s names? DANI: Marcus CLARA: Yeah Trent and Marcus. Where they are saying they won’t go to the basketball game with him because they don’t know him, but then they’re like “Oh we’ll take the tickets and go with your dad.” Like, oh, right to my core I felt so bad for Ben in that moment because there’s no way to interpret that that isn’t… not that they don’t know him but they don’t like him. DANI: Yeah… I found it so very sad the way that Ben gets treated throughout the episode. And it’s not the only time. Ben seems to clearly respect Trent, and has known him his entire life, yet he’s constantly rude to Ben and blatantly ignores him a few times. Like you said with Trent and Marcus, he invites them to the game and they’re kinda jerk-y about it. And Trent is definitely nicer to him later in the episode when he smacks him across the face— CLARA: After he slaps him?! DANI: But at the same time there’s all that, but Ben doesn’t try. And I get that, that was me, I still do that. I am lonely but I don’t try that hard to reach out to people and rectify that. And I am okay with, and comfortable with my online personas. And in some ways that is easier because it’s not that deep. And you can see that Ben is similar and he goes on Reddit and he has this fun online persona there where he gets angry and argues with people— CLARA: About Rick and Morty! DANI: It stimulates his need for attention. And then I also jokingly thought of Collin Robinson from What We Do In The Shadows here. Because I felt like he was getting trolled by Collin Robinson. CLARA: Oh yeah, that guy is a little bit of an energy vampire. Yeah I think that’s really true, the more you talk about it the more you remind me of Ben. CLARA: I think there’s something to it though. It’s so striking to me when he’s vulnerable and opens with Devi and her mother and Kamala because that is what is strikingly what is missing from the rest of his interactions with his peers. The reason that nobody likes him is because he just acts superior to them all the time and he doesn’t really make any effort with them until the moment when he needs them, and then it’s like” Oh okay, yeah, no we don’t’ have a relationship.” DANI: Exactly! As sad as you can feel for him, you can also realise why these people treat him that way. CLARA: Yeah because he sort of set it up that way because… even though he is really upset that Shira only wants to be with him for his money and status, he sets that up for himself, right? I think he doesn’t know any other way of connecting with other people. Probably has really shitty self-esteem and doesn’t think there’s anything else that other people will care about him for, and that I think probably comes from his parents’ conditioning too, right? His parents are super status-conscious. And oh god, his mum! When she’s saying goodbye to him, that whole scene is just really heartbreaking. But if that’s all you’ve ever learnt, yeah of course you’re going to replicate that. And that’s another way where Romance or not romance, his relationship with Devi is really weak[a] in his life. And in hers! DANI: Definitely. I want to the scene with Paxton where he’s caught staring at him because it’s really funny. And Paxton isn’t necessarily an ass about it in the way you would expect him to be… instead he’s like “it happens to me all the time.” and i gotta be honest, it’s this entire interaction that makes me ship Ben and Paxton in the first place, aka Bexton. I’m fully convinced Ben is bisexual. I have a pretty decent list of evidence at this point, I don’t know if we will get to that now, But Paxton has— CLARA: She texted me about his cuffed jeans, just FYI. DANI: His cuffed jeans, he owns THREE Jean-jackets. Three. Two different colours, and one has a hood. Come on. Come on. CLARA: I mean I don’t own any jean-jackets myself but… DANI: But do you own a leather jacket? CLARA: No! DANI: No?! Do you have a bomber?! CLARA: Well I’m vegetarian basically. I have blazers. So honestly my closet is a little more Lesbian than it is Bisexual. I definitely have a lot of blazers and my short haircut, and my big, bold colours with my angular face. DANI: I don’t have Jean-jackets either, because they look trash on me, but I definitely have leather jackets. It’s like you either are leather-jacket-Bi or Jean-Jacket-Bi. Generally. CLARA: I’m a Blazer-Bi… And anyway, I would also like to say for the record that I now own a cape. DANI: This is true. He also has, later on he wears these tartan pants. And there’s just a lot of things and eventually I’m just going to write it all down and read it off because there’s quite a bit, and there’s even a decent amount in this episode alone. There’s the fact that he’s staring at Paxton. And if the way that Paxton responds to him… He has a look on his face— CLARA: Paxton knows! DANI: Then he’s responding like “Bro I know what it’s like to be stared at by someone who’s interested in me.” And honestly I would die if these two were even a prospect because people deserve to be straight-baited at this point. Also it would be one of my favourite endings of a TV show ever so that would be cool. And it would remind me of the distracted boyfriend meme. I don’t know if you know the whole story behind the distracted boyfriend meme, but the two girls end up TOGETHER. CLARA: I just made a face, that’s why she’s laughing. They do, well that makes sense! DANI: Yeah, I think I have a lot of evidence, like one of them is the fact that on his browser window, the other reddit tab that he has open is Bob’s Burgers. And Bob is definitely Bi. It’s the little metaphors. When he has a popstar poster on his wall. Andy Samberg’s character in that is definitely closeted. CLARA: So listeners, if you didn’t understand what we meant by internal stereotypes before, all of this! This entire conversation is internal stereotypes. DANI: It is! And you can take it however you want, but us queer people like to make people anyone queer that we can. CLARA: It’s the queer agenda! DANI: If you are not established as a straight character, if you don’t say “I’m straight” then we have the power to make anybody not-straight in our minds. CLARA: Anyway what were we talking about before we ended on here? Bexton? DANI: I was just talking about Bexton, and then it drops in, you know with the evidence, that Ben is Bi. Also, his narration is Andy Samberg. Who, you know, consistently plays a closeted gay character all the time. CLARA: okay so I wanted to say this because, that was one of the things, when he gets distracted, I always think that Ben must actually have inside his head— his internal monologue in his brain— that he thinks of: that is Andy Samberg. I think what we are hearing in this episode is literally what is going on in his brain, and that’s why he sits there staring! It’s because it’s going on in real time, it’s not a real voice-over. DANI: Interesting theory! CLARA: That is my theory. Gotta get a crackpot theory in! DANI: Of course! But yeah, Bexton would be fun. They don’t have enough interactions in this season to nail it home, they have like two more interactions. But that’s something I think I’d like. Because I really always hate that trop of the two choices in a love-triangle hate eachother, don’t really get along. I would love to see them bond. I think they could bond over Rick and Morty. I think Ben could explain the science behind Rick and Morty to him. CLARA: See I feel like Ben should watch Rick and Morty with Trent. DANI: I mean Trent would definitely like it, especially if he was high, which he definitely would be. I want to see Ben high because I think that would be hilarious! CLARA: Oh, poor Ben! DANI: I want to talk about how sweet Nalini is to Ben… like I know he was crying in her office, but she immediately softens to him so easily, in a way she really doesn’t soften for Devi, and I find that really interesting. Like she is really nice to him even before he cries, saying that he keeps Devi on her toes, and it’s something I feel like she doesn’t really acknowledge on the other side with Devi. She calls him sweetie for one thing too. Plus she comes to his defense very easily later before dinner and it seems like they had to have talked a decent amount from what Nalini says to Devi when she gets back... I really like their budding relationship though…I would not be surprised to see him at more family dinners regardless of if Devi and him become an item. I feel like you know this family knew Ben growing up, from all the various things Devi and Ben have competed for. I would not be surprised if he’s had sweet moments with Mohan in the past. It would be nice to see maybe some flashbacks there. I feel like there is so much more to their rivalry that we just don’t know about. But I feel like Ben is the only white boy Nalini will probably ever approve of. CLARA: I don’t think you’re wrong about that, but I am interested to hear you say more about that, what do you mean when you say there’s more to the rivalry? DANI: I don’t know, it just seems like they have a very established history? Even in the flashbacks that they’ve shown so far, what got them to this point? I feel like there had to be some kind of turning point that made them dislike eachother? Maybe they were friends when they were really young and eventually it soured. CLARA: Yeah, I kind of wonder if Nalini is part of that, I’m sort of thinking about whne I was in high school—I had a couple friends who were super high-achievers. And my mom would say: “why can’t you be more like that person”. And I was a pretty high-achiever myself, and I think it can set you up to… I don’t know if she was trying to prod my competitive spirit into gear so I would out-perform or whatever. Or if there’s something about when you see it in somebody else’s kid where you haven’t been involved in all the hard stuff. It feels uncomplicated in a way that it isn’t with your own kids. But I could see that maybe if something like that happened and if Devi saw Ben get positive attention and approval from her mom whom she DESPERATELY wants approval from, but also can’t admit it, that that could make her angry and resentful towards Ben. DANI: He has a really interesting dynamic with her family, and it just seems easy. I feel like Nalini would probably be okay with Devi dating Ben at some point in a way that I don’t think she would ever be okay with her dating Paxton. I mean it’s a Mom thing, her mom immediately doesn’t like Paxton, and usually besides the stereotypical reasons of: she doesn’t want her daughter to date til she’s 25 or whatever, it’s a gut feeling she has about him. CLARA: I mean, I think Paxton comes across… maybe not as a bad boy because he’s a swimming star or whatever. I don’t feel like you could be a swimming star and be a bad boy, but I’m sure that we’ll get some DMs that will tell us that’s not true. But I think he is not a high-achiever. I think Nalini would look at him and think “this is not someone who shares my values” whereas she would look at Ben and go “Oh yeah, he’s ambitious, he’s hardworking, he’s going to go to an ivy league school or whatever, yeah that’s somebody that my daughter could date because that’s what I want for her. He’s not going to distract her from those things, he’s going to push her along that path.” DANI: In all the fan-fictions Ben wants to go to Yale… in ALL of them. CLARA: I’m not surprised! He’s going to be there with Rory Gilmour. DANI: Oh god, Logan! CLARA: Okay let’s get off that subject as fast as we can! DANI: Okay, I want to talk about his relationship with his parents because obviously it’s important. His mom is definitely like a less caring version of “i’m a cool mom”. It’s not like his parents don’t love him. They obviously do… I mean they actually respond to him and let him know when they are going to let him down. Instead of just like radio silence… he just doesn’t seem to be a priority to them and he’s definitely a second choice. It made me really sad. His relationship with his Dad is really similar to mine when I was younger, when I still kind of had hope when it came to him. When he kept writing and re-writing his text to his dad, I really felt that. Honestly… I’m surprised his parents aren’t divorced but their relationship could definitely be entirely transactional which is why he’s okay with his love-less relationship with Shira. Although for the record, I do think Ben has at least some feelings for Shira, he caves almost immediately when she gives him a puppy pout. CLARA: I mean I’m not sure I agree with any of that—but I’ma let you finish! DANI: Also! If your Dad calls you “buddy” or “pal”, they are promise breakers, 100%. Hello trust issues. Ben has mommy AND daddy issues, which is always fun. I should know, so do I. What are some of your thoughts about his relationship with his parents, Clara? CLARA: Yeah, so I think it’s really interesting that you say that they obviously love him. I found it so telling that his Mom didn’t understand what Model-UN was, when I’m sure he’s been doing it for years and years. That his Dad didn’t know his Girlfriend’s name— DANI: Hey my dad doesn’t know mine either! CLARA: Okay, well I’m not going to tell you that your Dad doesn’t love you, but I do think there’s something… There love is not an active love, right? DANI: It’s not unconditional. CLARA: I don’t even know if it’s that, but I feel like they see him as an extension of their status. He’s another status symbol, another trophy. So I think he really cares about their approval and connecting with them even though it’s basically impossible, and that’s what that text is about right? He doesn’t feel like he can be his whole self because he feels like if he is authentic and shows that he has any needs of his own or is upset by the way that they treat him, then he won’t even be a status symbol to them anymore. He’ll be totally useless to them. And I really feel for that. It’s totally hard when you feel like you have to shrink yourself down and hide everything about yourself for people to like basically just give you the bare minimum. It’s emotional neglect! DANI: Yeah, I understand his relationship with his parents in some way. My Mom was never like his Mom, but my Dad… the biggest difference would be that my parents WERE divorced and my Dad has a second family now, and he wasn’t around for so many years. So our relationship basically became him buying my affection all the time. And it wasn’t until he got with my stepmom that I even really wanted to be around him too much because I just didn’t like him. But I still had hope, a lot of hope, and then eventually it just ceases. You just realise “I’m not even going to attempt to get you to promise me anything because I know you’re not going to follow through.” CLARA: Well eventually you have to stop shrinking yourself down right? You have to carve out space for yourself even if your family isn’t going to carve out space for you. And if they can’t deal with that then at a certain point you just have to draw that boundary and be like “okay, this is what I need, and if you can’t give it to me: okay. But I still need it, and I’m still going to go find it. And if I can’t get it from you then I have to put limits on this relationship.” This got really deep. And slightly dark! DANI: I’m really curious to see how his relationship with his parents will unfold later on. CLARA: Yeah, I would really like to see beyond the 2-second stereotype versions of them. That would be actually a really interesting perspective episode! I think doing a perspective episode of all the parents could be really cool. Like doing a Nalini episode. DANI: They could get that into one episode, and just kind of do 10 minutes of each. Did you have any other thoughts about their relationship? CLARA: I think those are the broad strokes. It’s hard to get too much out of it because there’s not much to go on. DANI: I just want to mention really quickly the moment where he gets cat-fished by a creepy dude. I feel like it’s telling that he has a lack of interaction and friendships in his real life, and it leads him to meeting up with someone from reddit IRL, which is a lot! Because he’s probably only talked to this guy casually through comments, he’s never even had a full conversation. CLARA: Yeah that was not a private message, he said he lived in LA in a public thread. Uh-uh! Like rule number 1 of Reddit! DANI: I mean it’s a hilarious scene but it’s also really sad. But the funny part about it was the castmates would prank Jaren and hide pictures of the actor that would play Rick to get him to break character. CLARA: That’s hilarious, and I feel bad for that actor. DANI: I mean I think it’s all love, I think everyone knows that the actor doesn’t look like that. He’s been in a lot of comedies. CLARA: One thing I would say about that, I don’t think I really thought about it before we were talking about it. In some ways I think that scene is showing Ben a vision of what will happen to him if he continues on his current path and doesn’t… DANI: He’s not a Paedo?! CLARA: well… no I don’t know if we actually… that’s weird! But that’s also an interpretation of that guy— DANI: NO! He asked him to BLOW on the PIZZA! CLARA: Yeah, it was gross… who knows! But anyway, he would be that lonely person. So desperate for connection that he takes some random child out for pizza from Reddit. DANI: no that was straight up creepy. CLARA: no, but get over the Paedo part for a second, which… is not a sentence I ever thought I would say, but I do think there’s a way in which that’s a vision of Ben’s future if he doesn’t get his shit together and open up to other people. And I think it’s telling in part because like the very next scenes we have are him opening up to people: opening up to Nalini and later to Devi in her house. So I think he sees it that way too, that “if I don’t change something in my life, if I don’t find a way to develop friends, not just be a dick to people, if I don’t find a way to connect with people on other than materialism and status, I’m gonna be in the same position 40 years down the line. 30 years, whatever. DANI: well that leads me in to our next thing which is obviously talking about Ben and Devi, because we’ve got into that part of the episode. CLARA: I’m not going to steal your thunder, but what you’re about to say is HILARIOUS! Let’s go for it! DANI: Alright! Let’s get into the BEVIDENCE…. Yes I made up a word. Bevi Evidence. combined… CLARA: You’re so pleased with yourself, I love it! DANI: It was there! This is going to be a rant, so feel free to jump in. CLARA: Oh my god it’s an entire page! Sorry. Go ahead. DANI: The first thing mentioned in the episode is Ben’s unexpected allyship with Devi, and as he’s leaving the room to his impending doom he sees the bottle of wine in the trash and he has the most pathetically adorable smile on his face as he fondly thinks back to the events that transpired the night before. CLARA: “AH! MY LOVE!” DANI: Then when he looks so sad for her when the sirens go by and she clearly gets upset… of course he then gets caught… which again… Ovary up Benjamin… talk to her. CLARA: : “Why don’t you… kiss the girl?!” DANI: I think he would get straight up smacked if he tried to kiss her when she was that upset! CLARA: True! DANI: He later sees her talking in the hall with Paxton and he gets all emo about it, which I took clearly as interest in her. He tries to invite Devi to the clippers game as a last ditch effort, and then he’s like “WHY ARE YOU MAD AT ME”... which he has no clue… and I don’t expect him to have any clue. Then of course there’s the family dinner. The amount of eye contact exchanged between these two...Like they are honestly so comfortable with each other. I feel like she’s more comfortable with him than she is with some of her friends. They do not break eye contact when he’s talking about the model UN trip and decides not to sell her out. Like come on Ben, it’s rude not to make eye contact with the person you are actually talking to. But their small smiles that they exchange, they look down all shy and innocent… those are the moments that kill me and make me ship them way too hard. CLARA: I’m just now going to picture you now as the little crab from the Little Mermaid forever! DANI: Just a little kiss! CLARA: You’re about that tall! DANI: I feel like this moment… these moments with Ben at dinner and then afterwards with Devi.. I feel like Devi starts to see the appeal of Ben. Up to this point I don’t think his hint of feelings has been reciprocated. Like their conversation in the kitchen… it’s actually my favorite scene in the entire season. It’s these vulnerable moments between Devi and Ben that I just don’t think will ever be possible with Devi and Paxton. Like, I just don’t think they will ever be that level of comfortable with each other. Vulnerability is really something you can’t force. You really can’t just decide to let your walls down... It just happens. CLARA: Okay, but counterpoint: She is pretty vulnerable with Paxton in the hospital when she tells him that she thought the coyote was her dad. DANI: She’s probably also on pain medication! CLARA: Poss—okay possibly true! But my point is the door has been opened for vulnerability there. He has not reciprocated. But I wouldn’t say it’s impossible. I think that’s… Going a touch too far! DANI: I think the possibility of them being THAT comfortable and vulnerable with each other is not possible. CLARA: They don’t have the history, it would definitely be hard for them to build that quickly. DANI: We will definitely get to some of their more vulnerable moments when we get to them later on that season. But like I said, you can’t just decide to let your walls down, it just happens. I also love that Ben is sorry for messing things up with Paxton… you could have had a chance, and it’s like it clicks they are both losers who wish they could be cool. And then there’s that smile that Ben has after the venmo exchange from Devi… like that’s the smile of a boy in love. That final voiceover by Andy is so sad “today was the least lonely ben had felt in a long time.” So sad. What are some of your Benvi thoughts for this episode? CLARA: I don’t think there are any more Benvi thoughts that could be thought after what you said. But I think you’re right. I would actually argue that this is a turning point for Ben as well. This is when Ben starts to realise that maybe he… DANI: I think this is when he admits it to himself. CLARA: Yeah. And that’s important right? Like he sees that there’s something that he has with Devi that he can’t have with anybody else. And whatever that ends up being, I do think he goes to crushland. Doesn’t stop at GO, doesn’t collect $200 right away. I don’t think Devi ends up feeling anything more than platonic friendship towards him this episode, but I do think it breaks her ice wall towards him. DANI: I think it’s the sub-conscious opening up to the idea of it rather than the feelings—kind of like how earlier in this season you can see the progress start for Ben’s feelings for Devi. I obviously don’t think she accepts her feelings for him until the end of the season, the very end. CLARA: and obviously she accepts something new. DANI: Obviously. Other than that there’s only just a couple other funny notes that I think I had about the episode that I feel like repeating. For one: Eric is the best background character ever. CLARA: Oh my god! One of my quotes is from him, because… DANI: When he turns his “80” into boobs, I’m 5, so I thought it was funny! CLARA: But you definitely have to watch AP Bio, because I do think you need to see Heather. She is the actual best background character who very quickly became NOT a background character because she was so funny. DANI: I have a feeling that it’s going to be something like that with Eric. He just has these moments that are SO fucking funny. CLARA: Maybe he’s the Todd! DANI: No, I don’t think he’s the Todd though. He’s more like a Josh maybe? Also there’s no way in hell Ben would have a computer that isn’t a MacBook, I just feel like pointing that out. And I also think that I might be better at basketball than Ben, and I don’t like that. But I also have one that I have to tell you! I feel like Mr. Shapiro is definitely you if you were a teacher. Because of his FUCKING puns for days. CLARA: Okay so I definitely was a teacher for a while, and there definitely were a lot of puns. Though in my defence I taught linguistics? So puns come with the territory. My students definitely liked me, and I think they thought I was more genuinely cool… I mean no one thinks Mr Shapiro is cool. DANI: No one thinks he’s cool, but I do think his students like him. Like I don’t think they HATE him. CLARA: Yeah, but… I don’t know, maybe I’m inflating my own ego… I think my students thought I was cool. Maybe not? I don’t know, they’re college students. What College students think is cool, you’re already nerd, right? Whatever. But my nerds thought I was a cool nerd if that makes sense? I don’t think I was quite as much a try-hard as Mr. Shapiro. Definitely my first quarter teaching, I was super nervous. But I feel like I figured out who I was as a teacher really quickly and was not quite as embarrassing as Mr Shapiro. DANI: I think what I love about Mr. Shapiro though is he’s so unapologetic about the person that he is. He doesn’t seem nervous. Or… CLARA: And that was me as a teacher. I feel like as a teacher I was basically how I am as a podcaster. DANI: So before I move to fashion, do you have any other thoughts about this episode? CLARA: Yeah I mean I just want to reiterate how much I love this episode too. I do think that perspective shift is good. I like seeing Ben’s perspective of Mr Shapiro on the bus. I can’t believe he brought egg salad and was like “I brought an extra spoon!” Like “nobody wants that Mr Shapiro. Nobody.” But yeah, I think it’s a really solid episode and a good dramatic turn which has a lot of punchy one-liners which I’m sure we’ll get to soon! ADVERT: Welcome to Slayerfestx98! I’m your host Ian Carlos Crawford. Slayerfestx98 is a Latinx-run queer-centred pop-culture Podcast. We discuss every episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer in order, but we also talk X-men, MCU, and everything else nerdy and/or gay. And sometimes I’m joined by… “Hi, I’m James Marsters”; “Trixie Matell!”; “Anthony Oliveira, hello!”; “Ming-Na Wen”; “Emily Nussbaum”; “Summer Bishil”; “Charisma Carpenter!”; “Kirsten White”; “Hi, Amber Benson!”; “LaToya Ferguson”; “It’s Clare Kramer!”; “Adam Seth”; “Jane Espenson, Hi!”; “Hi this is Stacey Abrams” We can be found on Spotify, GooglePlay, Podbean, Apple Podcasts and anywhere else podcasts are found. You can support us on Patreon. You can get access to our private facebook group, Patron-exclusive episodes and more. We can be found on all social platforms @Slayerfestx98. Make sure to say hi! Any and all support is much appreciated. Thanks! DANI: so Fashion! Okay. So the first one is: Ben’s butt in those slacks! CLARA: Oh. My. God. Dani, look at his butt! It’s so… a butt! DANI: …So big! DANI: I really liked Ben’s Mom’s white dress. I loved it. Like I would wear that. I probably wouldn’t be able to afford it, but I’d wear it. CLARA: Oh I’m sure it’s $9000. I don’t know. I don’t know how much clothes cost! DANI: Clothes, I think I only buy new clothes like once every couple years. I actually really liked Ben’s clothes this episode, I think he dressed really well! I mean it was his episode, I guess? CLARA: Okay but we’re gonna have a throw-down about this, because there’s a lot of weird shit that happens in this episode. First of all, I don’t know what was on his shirt. They’re not purple dinosaurs. I think they might be possums? DANI: I looked again and I think they might be little Pumas, I think it’s a Puma shirt. CLARA: … anyway. They’re like weird and pink. That pattern is kinda odd. But the weird teal v-neck that he wears under the denim jacket, OVER something that’s a high-neck! DANI: That was a basketball jersey! But yes it was ugly. CLARA: Is that what that was?! A Basketball Jersey? DANI: That was a basketball Jersey! CLARA: oh my god, boy, you do not need that many layers! DANI: Maybe he has chest hair and is afraid to show it? I don’t know. CLARA: “Your mum’s chest hair” haha. Sorry. But it was definitely kind of weird. And he lives in the valley, you don’t need that many layers ever! DANI: Maybe his house is just chilled all the time? CLARA: They can afford heat! There’s also… I did like elements. I did like his denim jackets. He had white shoes that were meh. And then he had some other shoes that were fine. But one of Ben’s Dad’s clients must have been a model or a stylist or a fashion designer. Can he not get them to teach his child how to dress? DANI: The thing is he has all of these pieces that work on their own, he just doesn’t know how to put these things together. There’s so many moments where he’s wearing fucking trackpants or joggers instead of jeans, and I was like “boy just needs to learn how to wear jeans, number one.” CLARA: Okay, but I also want to point this out: the day that he goes to the basketball game, he changes at least three times. Because he has his outfit at school, and then he has his outfit with the jersey with the high-neck thing with the denim jacket over it, and then when he finds out he’s not going, he changes AGAIN! DANI: Well yeah, he got into his clothes that he’s going to wear to bed, probably. CLARA: NO! He was wearing another nice shirt. DANI: Oh yeah you’re right. I really like that shirt. CLARA: Yeah that one really was a good shirt! But a lot of the shirts are just too loud and also too 70s. DANI: I like it, I love print. I’m very much that person—I don’t wear it myself but I like it. I’m pretty much like Tan from Queer Eye, “put ‘em in a print!” CLARA: Do you also French-tuck? DANI: I don’t! I don’t. I think the French-tuck is the one thing I don’t agree with. I mean it looks good sometimes, but not always. CLARA: I will let you get to the rest of your notes. DANI: My next note is the jean-jacket thing, they’re Bi as fuck. I don’t make the rules. But the polo shirt that you’re talking about when he’s sitting on the couch looking at reddit. I like that a lot. I really like the button-up that he wears for most of the episode. Really brings out he eyes. CLARA: I like how you both are Ben, and have a crush on Ben. DANI: That was me in my gigantic crush on Seth Cohen from the OC when I was growing up. He was basically me but I had a giant crush on him. I don’t make the rules. Of course I like the jean-jacket hoodie that he’s wearing. I love Devi’s outfit when Ben is over for dinner. Floral crop top, polka-dot jean shorts. CLARA: Yes! Though I can’t believe that Nalini let her wear that. It seems way too exposing for Nalini. DANI: I don’t know how serious her mum is about her wardrobe because there’s a lot of times in it that she seems to be wearing short-shorts or lower-cut things. I think there’s a middle-ground and Devi’s always there. Like JUST about to be scolded! I also Love both final outfits worn by Ben and Shira (noticing Ben’s penguin shirt actually really reminds me of Seth Cohen from the OC and it totally clicked for me that Ben and Shira are basically Seth and Summer if they didn’t actually like each other). I don’t know if you’ve actually seen the OC but… CLARA: I think I’ve seen one episode, I don’t know who those people are. DANI: It’s the best show! You haven’t seen the show that inspired the SNL skit of MMM whatchu say?! Like come on! CLARA: I was in college, I had basic cable through my room. I watched endless marathons of Law and Order: SVU while I was writing papers DANI: Well it was on basic cable! No excuse! I’m just kidding. That was my fashion, do you have any other fashion notes? CLARA: oh, the one thing I would add, and I think this was in the last episode too: but Devi’s shirt when she’s on the bus is a LOT! Especially as she’s got it buttoned all the way up, and it’s very floral and paisley, there’s just so much going on. DANI: I feel like her and Bena re very similar in their fashion choices, they always have a lot going on. CLARA: I mean they both have a lot going on, but I feel like Devi is intentional about her choices, and Ben is just like: this was $700 I’m going to wear it. DANI: Yes, but I feel like they’re similar in the way that they both don’t know how to put items together quite well. There’s so many times that Devi is wearing a shirt that I love but I fucking hate the jeans or shorts or whatever she’s wearing with them. So they’re definitely similar in that way. Okay, one-liners. My first one is: “Had he said something weird, when he was drunk on grigio” Andy’s delivery is just so funny. I mean Andy Samberg could say anything and it would probably be hilarious. “I thought there was like a roach on your face, man cause there is like mad roaches in this school” – Trent CLARA: I really like what he said after that which was: “I guess it’s good that I slapped you so that I could give you this helpful info” DANI:… but like why would there be a roach on his face?! CLARA: I don’t know, because Trent’s high! DANI: oh definitely. And then my next one is: “She’s obsessed with me.” - Ben… reminds me of mean girls, because so many things do. CLARA: I mean he is kind of Regina George. DANI: I mean he is a little bit nicer than Regina George. CLARA: yeah he’s actually got a heart of gold rather than a heart of… DANI: STEEL. CLARA: sure Heart of gold instead of Buns of Steel. DANI: and then of course Ben saying: “I’m fine, you know.. My life is totally awesome”. CLARA: Through his tears! DANI: And the next one is: “He’s nice, he’s smart, and he could never buy drugs because he looks like a narc.” - Nalini…. The irony here since his narrator is Andy Samberg and Jake Peralta is definitely a narc… because he’s a cop. CLARA: And I think honestly Ben probably would be that person if he weren’t so desperate to have any friend in this moment. DANI: Definitely. He would definitely narc on someone. And the next one is Nalini as well: “My only extracurricular was bathing my senile grandmother, she fought me every time” CLARA: Oh my god it was so good! I’m stealing your next one because I wrote it down too, and also I wrote more context to it! DANI: okay. CLARA: Ben: “I’m trying to be vulnerable here! Also we don’t call them butlers anymore, we call them house-managers.” DANI: It was pretty good! And then, Ben also in this scene: “I was so lonely, I got catfished by a middle aged man yesterday” (I think he’s way older than that Ben…) CLARA: I love how Devi thinks he’s making that up to make her feel better. DANI: I know! But also I tried to show my ex the catfish movie once, and she just didn’t get it… but it’s a masterpiece. Have you seen catfish?! CLARA: no, what do you think?! DANI: Watch things, woman! CLARA: I watch lots of things! You still haven’t seen Killing Eve and you call yourself bisexual! DANI: And you call yourself bisexual and you haven’t seen the legend of Korra yet! CLARA: Trust me, I just saw this meme the other day, and it was like “Which is more bisexual” and one of them was an actual bisexual person and the other was Killing Eve, and It was like “Tough Call”. Fucking watch it. DANI: I thought it was more lesbian than it was bisexual. CLARA: Whatever. I mean one of them is bisexual. It’s fucking… it’s queer! We’re just going to go with queer, and there’s ladies and you’re going to like it! DANI: Well, you watch legend of Korra: bisexual MASTERPIECE! CLARA: I’m going to send you a gif of Jodie Comer climbing out of a suitcase and you’re going to wet yourself and then you’re going to watch it. DANI: not attractive to her. CLARA: That was not what I meant! I didn’t mean you were going to pee yourself. We’re going to move on. What’s the next quote? DANI: Anyways, you watch the Legend of Korra, I will watch that show! Alright, and then the last one for me is technically a venmo text but: “Devi paid $5, so you never have to accept food from a pedo again.” CLARA: Well I’m actually really excited because we don’t overlap a crazy amount. So here are my quotes other than the ones I’ve already raised. When the chem teacher is like “how did you know it was bad milk?” Eric then says “well, when I smelled it, it smelled bad, and then I was drinking it and it got way worse, and then I could barely even finish my second glass”. DANI: You know who he actually remoinds me of: Andy from Parks and Rec. CLARA: A little bit! DANI: He’s like if you mixed Andy and Jerry into one person. CLARA: Oh you’re right! Shit. Okay, well that segues nicely into my next quote, which is that Rick Paedo saying “I joked about getting a Mr. Meeseeks for the office and my coworkers looked at me like I was a total Jerry.” DANI: Jerry! I love Mr Meeseeks, that’s probably my favourite character form Rick and Morty. Because existence is pain. CLARA: I already gave my Trent quote, so my next one is Nalini, “Everybody, we have a very special guest tonight. Kamala, please lower the spice-level accordingly.” As she gestures at his pasty face. I had trouble picking one Kamala quote because she was so funny in this episode, but I went with: “Today I learnt that if you forget you wallet at the grocery store, the Cashier will pay for your items personally, and even give you his phone number to make sure you got home okay.” While everyone around her is like “ERRRR”. DANI: I figured you’d also pick that one so I didn’t put it in my list because there’s quite a few in there, but I like to leave some for you. But there’s definitely not as many in this episode because there’s a lot of quiet moments and a lot of voiceover. CLARA: The other good Kamala one was when she knocks the pan off after Devi and Nalini has already said something offensive and she goes “oops! My pan! … I thought that would be loud for longer…” DANI: Yeah. God that would be so awkward though. I don’t blame her. Okay so we’re up to our MVPs. I have two. I refuse to choose between them. First, obviously Jaren Lewison for Ben for so many reasons, but also like I know from talking to so many people about this show, if they weren’t already in love with Ben, this was usually what made people realize he was such a worthwhile character. And two: Andy Samberg for just jumping in and narrating the fuck out of this episode. I also want to give a shout to the writers and director because the episode also wouldn’t be possible without them. CLARA: Yeah, it’s a really well-written episode. I am going to choose between those and say that I’m going to give it to Jaren. I think he gives a great performance. You hear at the end of the clip we played, just the tiny little extra hiccup-cry at the end, it’s the little things like that where he just does such a good job of being pathetic. DANI: He’s a very good actor, he has his expressions down. I think I said that after the first episode. CLARA: Yeah, very expressive eyes. And eyebrows. DANI: Very expressive! When he’s blowing on the pizza, and the guys says the creepy line and he’s like “UGH”. He’s just really good at what he does, and he’s good at making these things that could be weird (or creepy, or sad) into being funny. Jaren definitely gets it the most out of everyone. CLARA: And you have a crush on Andy Samberg is what you’re telling us. DANI: How can you not have a crush on Andy Samberg? I mean he’s kind of a weird looking dude, but if you watch Brooklyn-Nine-Nine, I feel like you can’t get out of that without having a crush on him. CLARA: He’s really good in Brooklyn-Nine-Nine, it’s true. His character is ADORABLE. DANI: SO funny, because my best friend Erin is very picky. I know YOU know this! Because you’ve also had to hear her talk. But— CLARA: so mean to Erin! DANI: I love you Erin! she is in love like Andy Samberg and he is absolutely nothing like anyone she would ever like. CLARA: I can see that though, most people need one Emo boy—and she needs one nice guy. DANI: One nice goofy dude. CLARA: Fluffy bunny, yeah, one goofy dude. DANI: She’s never agreed with any of my weird comedian crushes, like I have a lot of weird comedian crushes. Like I think Jason Segal is one of the most gorgeous men on the planet, and it’s mostly because he’s hilarious! CLARA: Huh! DANI: I also love Paul Rudd, but I think everyone loves Paul Rudd. CLARA: Everyone loves Paul Rudd, and Paul Rudd has not aged since 35. DANI: I would go on record and say that Paul Rudd is possibly the sexiest man alive. CLARA: I think possibly one of those fancy magazines that does those things has! DANI: I don’t think he’s ever gotten it, but I could be wrong. So I have a really dumb final topic that I want to talk about because it’s me. So as everyone has probably established by now, we used to host a Magicians podcast… and I want to talk about what disciplines the Never Have I Ever characters would have if they went to Brakebills University. So first of all a very brief synopsis of the series so people can understand what we are talking about. The Magicians has many, many, many times been called “Harry Potter meets Narnia” for adults. Which is all fine and dandy, but it’s so much more than that. For one it’s a modern day urban fantasy and way more high-brow. It’s like if you took all these amazing fantasy concepts, turned them on their head and also like inserted books like The Secret History and Brideshead Revisited. It’s very queer and very diverse and I highly recommend it for anyone looking for something fun to watch (or read). So in vain of like a Hogwarts house, the students who go to Brakebills which is a magical college, have disciplines, and then they also have specialties within that discipline. This is like the simplest way I can break it down, but the disciplines are: Physical, Illusions, Natural, Knowledge, Healing, and Psychic. First of all I’ll start. This is Ben’s episode, so I’ll start there. As much as I would want Ben to be a physical kid, I think he’d be a knowledge student, and I think his discipline would be something similar to Julia and Fogg’s: Meta- Composition. What do you think Clara? CLARA: Yeah, that’s possible for sure. I don’t really know the disciplines within Knowledge very well other than meta-composition. DANI: There’s Meta-composition, the circumstance one and Horomancy is one as well. CLARA: I could totally see him being a circumstance one. Because he is very sensitive to minute changes in other people’s moods and behaviour. That’s a thing we see in this episode. That’s what we see, that’s kinda circumstance. DANI: Yeah, a little bit. I think the one they reference in the show is more mathematical circumstances, but I could definitely see him being a form of that. Maybe Emotional circumstances— inner circumstances! The one that is the hardest to place would be Devi. CLARA: No I think Devi’s a Physical kid. DANI: What kind of Physical kid do you think she would be? CLARA: So remind me all the details, because I know Alice is the phosphoromancy and I know Quentin is a nothing-mancer. DANI: I think that Paxton would be a physical kid that would be a nothing-mancer, I feel like he would find out late in life what his actual Physical is. CLARA: I mean a nothing-mancer would also be a possibility for Devi because she’s kinda immature. That’s the justification given for why Quentin doesn’t have one. But I could also see her being a phosphoromancer honestly because she’s so fiery. Emotions burst out of her. She’s not as quiet as Alice is, obviously, they’re much more on the surface with her than they are with… DANI: -- but the explosive… CLARA: -- yeah the explosive force! And then, what was Josh in the books? DANI: Josh in the books was physical, I don’t think they ever said anything beyond that. He’s a naturalist in the show though. CLARA: in the books I think that is also an option for Devi, because remember he has all this power but doesn’t know how to harness it, and that also seems like a pretty strong metaphor for being emotionally dysfunctional. DANI: Yeah I could definitely see Josh (in the books) being kind of like how Devi would be if she went to Brakebills. I definitely think Trent would be like Josh-in-the-show and be a naturalist. Obviously because… CLARA: Oh yeah, because he’s… high all the time! DANI: The one that I thought about for a while was definitely Fabiola. I think she would be a horomancer like Stoppard because of the mechanics, she would basically be a magical engineer. Which is within Knowledge. CLARA: And I think Eleanor would be an illusionist. DANI: That’s pretty much what I went with. I mostly thought about the main characters. But obviously Nalini would be healing. Probably Kamala too. CLARA: I think Kamala is Knowledge. Somewhere. I think she might be more of a meta-composition. DANI: She could be definitely, with her science background. The knowledge one is a really interesting discipline in general. It’s a mix between kind of all of them, it’s like you’re good at everything. CLARA: Yeah. But I do think that people who are naturally curious… and that’s the thing about Kamala, she’s CURIOUS. She wants to get her degree because she is interested in that subject and not because of what it’s going to mean for her in terms of career. She has that sort of general curiosity and independence that I think I associate with knowledge students. DANI: Definitely. I think the only other ones I thought of were Eve. I think Eve would be a psychic. Maybe a traveller. CLARA: Yeah I can see that. DANI: And then Jonah I put as illusions as well with Eleanor. CLARA: What’s Eric? DANI: Eric’s probably a hedge-witch? NO! or like a magical creature from Fillory or something. CLARA: what’s a Hufflepuff in Brakebills? DANI: A Hufflepuff in Brakebills? CLARA: Because I feel like he’s a Hufflepuff. DANI: Probably Illusion because they never talk about it. That’s the one discipline that they really don’t talk about it. Or Naturalist. Naturalist is definitely the most Hufflepuff I think. Very similar to Herbology. CLARA: Alright, have we covered all our bases, or are there…? DANI: I think so. I just had to have that conversation because we do actually have quite a few Magicians’ fans out there! I have been reached out to by a couple of them. So, thanks for listening! Alright and with that I think we have come to the end of our show! Listeners thank you for joining us. If you liked this episode you can subscribe online wherever you get your podcasts. And you can follow us on Twitter or instagram @nhie_podcast. Bye! CLARA: ‘Never Have I Ever… Hosted a Podcast’ is produced and hosted by Dani Lowry, with Co-host Clara Sherley-Appel. Saxon Ahern is our sound engineer, and Lanier Sammons wrote our theme. CLARA: Mind slut! DANI: Ben’s butt in those slacks! [a]Not sure I heard this properly—just after the 16.25 mark in the podcast.