Stephen Gutowski  0:00  
ATF agents cooperate the existence of a racial complaint against Biden's director. Ted Nugent resigns from the NRA board and an interview with cam Edwards bearing arms that more on this episode of the weekly reload. Joel comm ladies and gentlemen to another episode of the weekly reload podcast, I'm your host Stephen Gutowski, and I'm also the founder of the reload.com. This week, we have special guest cam Edwards of bearing arms here to discuss the nomination of David shipment the ATF but before we get to that interview, I just give you a little bit of an update on the news of the week. And before we do that, let me just say that members of the reload get this a day early. So if you would like to have the podcast delivered to you exclusively before everyone else, you should go ahead and sign up wherever right on the reload comm $10 a month $100 a year you get two months off if you buy a year pretty good deal, I think but maybe buy a So first, let's talk about David Shipman. President Biden's nominee to run the ATF came under increased scrutiny this week after I published a an exclusive piece at the reload detailing agents former agents current agent and their complaints about his demeanor as well as his long history of working for gun control groups and how that could affect the performance of the agency if he were to be confirmed. And of course they also cooperated the existence of allegations that Chipman made racist remarks while he was in the Detroit office of the ATF when he worked for the ATF there was a voya lawsuit it's still ongoing that got filed in June. The group behind that ATF claim that an ATF agent was concerned after hearing Chipman say that black agents too many black agents had passed an assessment in order to Aaron and promotion and that he said that they must have cheated in order to do so. And that agent filed a complaint against Chipman now, Chipman has confirmed the existence of two complaints filed against him. During his time at the ATF he said that they had been resolved without repper reprimand. But he did not disclose the details of those complaints. That is what's alleged in the lawsuit. shipment toll told Senator Ted Cruz of Texas Republican that he that these complaints did in fact exist but that they'd been resolved now. After I read news of the lawsuit and the claims made against Chipman, I thought, if this was in fact true and not fabricated, that there should be some other ATF agents who heard the same story. And so I went and, you know, did what reporters do. And I asked around and found two sources and a current agent and a former agent who cooperated that they had in fact heard this story before news of it came out in the form of this lawsuit. So that has gotten a lot most of the attention at this point from the political world on Capitol Hill. with Mitch McConnell, the Minority Leader calling for President Biden to withdraw Chipman over these allegations. And all of the members all 11 Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee calling for a new hearing to investigate the allegations further to see what is in fact inside of these complaints and what Chipman has to say about them. I did of course, reach out to the White House for comment from David shipment but did not receive any in return. And nor did I receive comment from DOJ and the ATF itself said that they could not comment on nominees for director. And so that's where that story stands. We're still waiting to see if these complaints will be released. And whether or not David Shipman or the White House will put out any sort of statement on it. In the meantime, I have been smeared I guess it would be a proper term for by the president of Brady united which is a gun control group that is supporting David shipments nomination

essentially claiming without evidence that I have made up these sources and that I have secret motivations from being part of the gun lobby. Now, of course, this is all baseless. The sources are certainly real. This is a common tactic when someone doesn't like a story that features sources whose identities have been withheld. In this case, the identities have been withheld of two of the three sources, because they're actually fearful of reprisal from David Shipman one said he has a reputation for being a bully and that he could see Shipman reassigning agents, he doesn't like to farflung posts, he would have the ability to do that as director. And so I thought their concerns were legitimate, and allow them to remain anonymous, so that they can share their concerns without fear of backlash, you know, at their workplace. So, of course, I'm also not part of the gun lobby, the reload is a fully independent and reader funded publication, hence the pitch for the membership earlier, which, by the way, if you aren't a member yet you should join, not just to support my reporting, but also to get exclusive access to not only this podcast early, but a bunch of posts that others non members cannot read. So, especially a lot of my analysis is usually reserved for members, where I give my take on the situation and what's going on. For instance, I wrote recently a piece on Jasmine's nomination, the longer he waits in limbo, without support from all 50 Democrats, the more it becomes likely that he will not be confirmed, regardless of my latest story or not. So you can check that out if you are a member already on the reload. But it's also another good reason to become a member. So you should join today, if you in fact, have the $10 to spend on the only place that's going to do this kind of reporting there. No one else apparently has the sourcing, to find ATF agents to corroborate whether or not these allegations exists. I'm the one who did it. So that counts for something, I think when you're looking for journalism, to support or to pay for anyway, I also have a story. Speaking of my my status as a member of the gun lobby, supposedly, according to Chris Brown of Brady. I also broke news this week that Ted Nugent has resigned from the NRA board. NRA General Counsel, john Frazier sent an email to board members, other board members informing them that Ted Nugent, the Rockstar has said many controversial and awful things over the years, frankly, but who has also been a one of the top boosters of the organization. For the last several decades, he's been on the board. He's He's no longer on the board. Now. The NRA said that this was over scheduling conflicts. But Nugent had been outspoken in 2019. I interviewed him at the NRA annual meeting that ended with Oliver North being removed from the presidency of the NRA and a big blow up during the members meeting. But Nugent himself had said that he wants total transparency from the organization and that was the main reason that he was going to be a board member, and that he didn't believe that they should spend outrageous sums of money on personal expenses. But now apparently he is resigning from the board. But he has not put out a statement yet. All we have is what the NRA told its board members to this point. So you can check out that piece over to reload calm as well. But now we're gonna move on real quick here to our guests cam Edwards to discuss the fallout of my recent story on David Shipman and how this could all affect whether or not he becomes the next director of the ATF. All right, welcome, Cam Edwards bearing arms. I appreciate you coming on the show. I want to take a second here to introduce yourself to all the listeners who might not know who you are.

Cam Edwards  9:54  
Absolutely. And thank you for the invite. It's nice having the shoe on the other foot for a change. So yes, I'm the editor at Behringer. dot com, the host of the bearing arms cam and company podcast. Before that it was cam and company from NRA news and NRA TV. And obviously, Steven, you have been, I don't know how many hundreds of times, you and I have talked before, but it's awesome what you're doing with the reload, I'm really excited to be a guest here on the podcast, and congratulations on making enemies of all the right people with your reporting.

Stephen Gutowski  10:24  
That's not the goal, but I appreciate it. Yeah, now, we have obviously known each other for a long time here. And I've long respected you as somebody who is very honest in your writing, and in your when you're hosting your podcasts. And, and, you know, I've been a guest a number of times a new show. So it's great to be able to have you come on the show here because I think you provide a perspective that's very rare out there, which is sort of realistic approach to gun politics, somebody who's really informed on what's going on in DC, and follows it closely, which is, and somebody who knows who knows guns as well, which is really not a very common combination out there, frankly. And that's why I wanted to have you on to, you know, discuss some of the big news that broke this week that I was able to break over at the reload. Specifically dealing with David shipment President Biden's ATF nominee, who, you know, there was a lawsuit filed for a lawsuit filed last month, which sought the release of his complaints filed against him with you know, internal complaints while he was working at the ATF which Shipman himself had has admitted exist to Senator Ted Cruz of Texas, the Republican. And the group that filed those complaints, said in an interview with the Daily Caller that one of them was related to alleged racist comments that shipment had made about black agents who had who were up for promotion and how they must have cheated on an assessment in order to get to the that lists for promotion. So I looked into this complaint, you know, this came out there was not much reporting done on this outside of the initial piece of the collar, which detailed the the claims and I thought, well, you know, if this really happened, then other people should have heard about it inside the ATF. And so I went in and asked a number of ATF contacts if they'd heard about it, and they have. So that corroborates that this allegation, at the very least, is something that people had heard at inside of the ATF before this lawsuit came out, which obviously, when some degree of credibility to these, the initial claim there. And so I've asked the White House and the Department of Justice for comment, to get a comment from David Shipman. And for the release of these complaints that exist, and have gotten no response from them. I have gotten some criticism from the gun control groups, as you alluded to earlier here. That doesn't really engage substantively with the piece. It kind of just does the sort of, there's this sort of classic move, when there's a piece like this comes out that it goes against somebody you're supporting, which is just to say that the reporters have ulterior motives, secret motives, and that their sources are all made up, which is essentially what the president of Brady united is claimed here. But I can

Cam Edwards  13:56  
choose a part of the extreme gun lobby, in which you know, I think their reaction, I think, shows how worried they are about children's confirmation, because, as you know, Chairman himself acknowledged during his confirmation hearing with the Senate Judiciary Committee, that EEOC complaint had been filed. He didn't get into the specifics of what those complaints allege, but he acknowledged their existence. So that's a legitimate line of inquiry. And not just for reporters, obviously. But for those senators who are going to be voting to confirm or reject David Shipman, as the permanent director of the ATF. This is something that I think is a real issue and it's an issue, frankly, that Chipman could have addressed from the get go, had he been more transparent, he'd be willing to talk about what those complaints were, but instead, he simply acknowledged that those complaints existed. He said that they did not result in any disciplinary action. But, again, we don't know why that's the case where these complaints determined to be completely unfounded or was this an example of the ATF going light on agents? Because remember, Stephen, the gun control advocates like Chris Brown, the head of the Brady Campaign, they claim that the agency is in desperate need of reform, right, that it's a broken agency that the gun lobby has had its way with the agency for decades. So you can make the argument that, you know, well, maybe Chipman got off light because of a culture of, you know, either corruption or a culture of looking the other way within the ATF. We don't know. Because David Shipman hasn't said anything about these complaints. And it's ultimately up to David Shipman to satisfy those questions that senators have the fact that the gun control lobby is, you know, going after reporters for reporting on a legitimate story. A, it kind of makes you wonder if there's not some fire beyond the smoke. But again, I think it really is a sign that they are increasingly of the belief that Shipman's nomination is in danger.

Stephen Gutowski  16:03  
Yeah, you know, and my interest here, just to be upfront with everybody is in transparency like these complaints exists, there are now allegations that they are over racist remarks. He's up for the director's position of of a major agency inside the federal government. It seems fair to ask for those complaints to be made public and for us, the public to be able to determine the details of those complaints, maybe, maybe, chairman has a good defense for why these complaints are made or how they're not legitimate. Maybe, maybe he doesn't, we don't know. That's the problem. And, you know, we've seen now the entire republican caucus on the Judiciary Committee, all 11 members of the judiciary committee who are republicans signed on to a letter asking for a new hearing on Chipman because of of my story, and they want to see the exact same questions answered here. And and I think that's fair, I don't see any good reason why these complaints should remain sealed. You know, he's not a normal citizen. He's up for unimportant things position inside the federal government where he's going to be overseeing a lot of black agents, frankly,

Cam Edwards  17:32  
absolutely. And look, even if even if there are, you know, privacy laws that would preclude the EEOC itself from issuing their findings. David chiman has a copy. I'm sure David Shipman has a copy of those EEOC filings squirreled away in a desk drawer somewhere, and there's nothing preventing him from releasing any documents that he received. Right. In connection with that he OC investigates at least

Stephen Gutowski  17:58  
the story, you know, I'd love to hear so I reached out for it and didn't get a reply. So, and the the gun control advocates who've complained about the story, they haven't given his explanation either. So, you know, we just don't have all the information yet. And that's my job as a reporter is to go and try and find it. I was able to corroborate that this, these allegations exists and that people inside the ATF had heard of them before this lawsuit was filed. So you know that that's what you're supposed to do in journalism, you're supposed to ask around for these sorts of answers. And now I found some I'd like more information, doesn't it's not the end of the story, in my opinion, right. There's more we should find more. If David Shipman can exonerate himself from from these allegations, then he should, I mean, I'd like to hear that. And I would print it if if he sent me his side of the story I would absolutely included in in my piece or in a follow up piece. I have no problem doing that. I just think that it's a natural part of journalism to go out and see if you can corroborate allegations made against someone that, you know, I didn't I didn't make these allegations. I simply reported on them and found out whether or not people could cooperate them and they could so that's where we're absolutely

Cam Edwards  19:19  
but look, this isn't this isn't the Brady Campaign for better journalism that we're talking about here. Right. This is the I guess they dropped the the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence now that is Brady. But you know, Chris Brown is an interested in the the quality of journalism coming out of you know, Second Amendment outlets like the reload. She and gun control activists are interested in installing one of their own is permanent director of the ATF, you know that that's the ultimate goal here and the factual reporting that gets in the way of that is what you know, leads these activists to lash out. They can't lash out of David Chipman. So they're going to lash At the reporters, like yourself are actually bothering to cover the story. And quite frankly, I think gun owners could be even more righteously ticked off at the fact that most media outlets have ignored what you've reported. I haven't seen this in the New York Times or The Washington Post or any other major media outlet, as you say, these are now you've got agents, who correct me if I'm wrong, but you got at least one agent on the record, who said that he had heard these rumors, there were two

Stephen Gutowski  20:30  
current agent who, and a former agent who said they'd heard these. And then there was a third agent on the record who both of those agents were wanting to be anonymous because they were afraid of reprisals, which is something we can also talk about in a bit also. Yeah. And then you had Vasquez who is a former another former agent who worked directly with Chipman, who had not heard of the specific allegations that he said that it was, you know, that's doesn't necessarily mean anything. Because allegations are not necessarily something, you know, these sorts of complaints are not necessarily something that is spread widely around. But he had, he did know that Jim was sent to Detroit, the guests as well. And then he also had a number of, you know, complaints about him, outside of this particular accusation, because the story goes well beyond just this particular accusation, and goes into a number of other issues that these agents had with Chipman. And the concerns they have about him. You know, going forward, but But yeah, so the there's, I believe now, there's the initial agent who told the group that filed the foil lawsuit, who made the actual complaint, then there was a second one who can, you know, backed up the existence of the complaint with the daily collars initial piece. And then now you have two more in my piece who heard about these allegations as well. And the specifics that they told me matched up with what was reported in the daily caller. So there wasn't really any difference between the stories. So, you know, he's alleged, I said that, to have been surprised by the number of black agents that made it through an assessment for promotion, and said that they must have cheated in order to have done that. So. And obviously, if that's something that David Shipman believes, if he did say that and believes that, you know, that's a problem when you're when you're going to be the director of an agency that has a lot of black agents, because, and that has had a history of being sued over racial discrimination as well. So, you know, it's something that I think is fair for the public to have the full facts on, you know, just to me, baby Chipman has a good explanation. Maybe that's a good defense. I'd like to hear it.

Cam Edwards  23:06  
I think we all would but but as you say, this is only one part of the story that you reported on. And so in a way, it's kind of interesting. I mean, obviously, this is I let's, let's say the most, no pun intended, when we're talking about the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. This is the most explosive allegation. But the the fact that you did have these agents say that they did not want to speak publicly because they are afraid of retaliation, I think is also important here. I mean, again, we're talking about somebody who spent 25 years within the ATF, but spent much of the past decade in the employ of mayors against illegal guns and now Giffords, as a you know, gun control lobbyists, this guy is a an active committed paid for part of the gun control lobby. And so to install him at the ATF, I think, you know, one of the agents that you talked to said, Look, you know, most of us are, are non political, most of us are actually, you know, pretty pro gun, but we don't get into the politics of this. Well, Gibbins nomination itself, I think is an attempt to politicize the agency, but if he's confirmed, it seems to me like there are a lot of agents who do have that concern about what that is going to mean for the agency's reputation going forward, what that's going to mean for these agents ability to work with law enforcement to work with the firearms industry, because David Shipman is coming into this with a very adversarial position towards the industry that he would oversee.

Stephen Gutowski  24:38  
Yeah, and that was the other part of the story. Really, the longer part of the story, these agents had very significant concerns about what the conformation of David Shipman would mean for the ATF as a functioning regulatory agency because, as you described there, he is a committed activist. Now, he said in his hearing He would put aside his activism and just, you know, apply the law as it is, although there's one of the agents described some of the problems with that, because and this I just read about this in a members piece on Friday, but the ATF director, there's quite a lot of discretion in current federal law, especially when you look at things like sporting purpose exemptions. I mean, effectively, the National Firearms Act makes every 2020 gauge and 12 gauge shotgun a destructive device, by definition, because anything that has a barrel diameter, more than half an inch is considered a destructive device under the National Firearms Act, and must be registered. And you have to pay the tax stamp for each each one that you own. And the only reason that we don't have every Remington 870 and Mossberg 500, under the National Firearms Act is because there's a sporting purpose exemption for shotguns. And that is one of the big concerns that this agent expressed in this members only piece that I wrote, where, you know, he discussed like, there really is a broad level of power that is not generally exercised or not pushed to its limits, in the way that it could be by, you know, an activist like David Shipman without and this is without requiring any new laws to be passed. This is all right. All unilaterally could be done at the request of the the ATF director to the Attorney General. And so you know, there's also the, the Gun Control Act also has sporting purposes exemptions for ammunition armor piercing ammunition, which, you know, we saw a fight over that in the Obama administration, when the ATF tried to ban so called green tip 556. That's popular for use in air. Because they just they wanted to remove the sporting exemption from it. And that would have made it effectively illegal to make your own. Well, I

Cam Edwards  27:15  
mean, look at what they're doing right now with the the proposed rules that are up for public comment, you know, redefining, basically trying to redefine ASL pistols with stabilizing braces, as short barrel rifles, are trying to redefine what an unfinished firearm might be to include basically anything that could be turned into a firearm. And I'll tell you one that is kind of flying under the radar. I think you and I have talked about this the past in the past, but, you know, one of the phrases in the Gun Control Act of 68 is that phrase readily convertible, right. And so if something is readily considered readily convertible to either a firearm or let's say a semi automatic would be readily convertible to a fully automatic firearm, then then those items could be regulated under the provisions of the National Firearms Act, you have to read or listen to the government, you have to pay that $200 tax stamp. And David Shipman himself has talked about in the past wanting to regulate ar fifteens. Like we regulate machine guns. We're now even seen gun control groups like Brady, use this argument and litigation. I don't know if you saw this out of Los Angeles or out of California. But one of the lawsuits that Brady's filed it there are two now in California one, over the Poway synagogue shooting one over the shooting into Gil Roy garlic festival, I believe. And Brady is actually making the claim that the manufacturers of the rifles that were used by these killers violated federal law because they manufactured a product that could be quote, readily converted into a machine gun. Now, neither of these semi automatic rifles were converted, but they're still arguing in this civil suit, that these companies did something wrong simply by making ar 15 is because they're making the argument that ar fifteens are inherently readily converted into machine guns. And this is something again, this is an argument that David Shipman could make if he's permanent director of the ATF that look, we don't need to go through Congress to ban ar 15 we can just decide that. Now. These are actually like machine guns, you know, you could you could convert them into a fully automatic machine gun with a little bit of work, you'd be sure you'd be breaking the law to do it. But but it's it's theoretically possible. And so therefore, we need to treat these guns as if they're already machine guns. That's as you know, those are the as you say, that's the type of broad discretionary power that the ATF director has at least a permanent director has. And we haven't seen a an ATF director with this type of activist background and activist agenda like David Shipman has had, so we really haven't had to worry about that, I think as much in the past, but if kibin is confirmed, we absolutely have to worry about things like that going forward.

Stephen Gutowski  29:59  
You know, it's not to say that he'd be successful if he tried to do any of these things. They're obviously fairly radical moves. But it The point is that they're available to an ATF director, if they wanted to try and push the boundaries of current law, you would not have to pass a bunch of laws to try and implement these things. It's not outside of the realm of possibilities to push the sporting purpose exemption or the, you know, the readily convertible definition to its limits. And that could have very broad impacts. And that is what one of the major concerns was about having an activist as director, because like you said, there really hasn't been anyone like David Shipman to become directors kind of like, if you appointed, you know, Wayne LaPierre to be ATF director, if Trump had tried to do that would have been somewhat similar to what we're seeing here. And would have probably had a very negative reaction. On the other side of the aisle, I would imagine, but

Cam Edwards  31:06  
yeah, and I think in much different media coverage, by the way, had dad Trump nominated wayne lapierre, as opposed to the media coverage we've seen about Jimmy getting nominated or even if you know, even if it was a wayne lapierre somebody with a you know, as high profile as him or somebody but let's say it was exactly or a Chris Cox or a mark all of it, but somebody within the the Second Amendment community or the segment industry, or the firearms industry, yes. That would have been seen as completely unacceptable a gift to the gun lobby, right. I mean, you can, you know, you can write the headlines yourself, you know, what the media coverage would have been. But it's a very different thing. You know, when the washington post is talking about the professionalism that David Chipman would bring to the job and the years of service and experience they want to focus on his 25 years of the ADF, at least, at least portions of his 25 years of the ATF maybe not everything, but they want to, you know, focus on on some aspects of his job as an ATF employee. Well, really just downplaying or ignoring outright the the activism that he brings to the table. And again, that's a legitimate dispute. That's a legitimate complaint that people can have. But they want to know, this is part and parcel of what they're trying to do here. Every complaint is illegitimate, right? It's either a gun lobby smear, or it doesn't matter. It's all outweighed by as you know, decades of experience within the ATF. Basically, you know, as far as the gun control groups are concerned, you're not allowed to say anything bad about David Shipman, anything, anything that you say about David Shipman that isn't, you know, praise Him to high heavens, is automatically discarded for what for one reason or another?

Stephen Gutowski  32:51  
And look there? There are people's spreading things that aren't true about David Shipman, but I'm certainly not one of them. And I've recorded on him accurately. To this point, you know, it's interesting that the thread that was that Chris Brown put up the Brady president, she was complaining about these other myths or lives that are out there at least, or at least claims that chiman has denied that I don't even that got put into her thread about this story, which didn't include any of that stuff, because I don't print stuff that isn't verifiable. And so you know, it's dishonest stuff, I think the way that that that was put together, but the other problem that a lot of these agents had with the idea of shipment as an activist or really any activist and that's what they, they all said, to me, the problem of Chipman is that he's an activist, not necessarily that he's a gun control activists, but that he's an activist at all, they don't really want a gun rights activist to be director either. And, but in this case, the problem with having somebody who's this adversarial towards the industry, as your director, is that the ATF makes a lot of cases off of tips from the industry, or at least from like your average ffl your average gun dealer. And so having somebody in charge who treats ffls as though they're the enemy, essentially are that there. You know, all potential gun traffickers is something that could have a detrimental effect on the relationship between ATF field agents and gun dealers who give them tips on potential gun running schemes. I mean, that's how a lot of these cases get made. They get tips from ffs themselves, explaining, you know, what the concern is, and then the ATF follows up on that and all of the agents involved That's how they've made a lot of cases over the years. So if you've damaged that relationship, which is already parallel, I mean, obviously, you had the the current official, the current ATF agent, who still works there. They've been there for a long time, 20 plus years, but they're still there. And, you know, they described Look, the ATF has a bad reputation among gun dealers and gun owners already, in part because of some gun rights organizations. This agent thinks unfairly demonizes them to a certain degree. But, you know, you don't need to add on top of that. Somebody who is actively a gun control activists, like literal one who's paid literally by number of gun control groups over the years, because that's gonna make them much less likely to try and work with you on, you know, the the next gun running case that they might, you know, have a tip on.

Cam Edwards  36:06  
Absolutely. And, you know, look, we can we can talk about the the ATF, you know, reputation and whether it is well deserved or not, I would, I think there are, there's certainly cause for concern, you look at, you know, everything from Operation Fast and Furious to the storefront sting operations that were a part of the Obama administration that ended up being shut down. And, you know, there have been, obviously, and then going back even further, you know, to the 1990s. Yeah, there there are, I think, legitimate complaints and beefs that governors have had about the agency. But I will say this, you know, look, the, the the quickest way to repeal or to get rid of the ATF completely is to put David ship in charge, because the next time that Republicans have control of Congress, there would be a huge push to to defund the ATF to, you know, just get rid of it completely. If you've got an activist in charge, you've already seen, you know, republicans like Marjorie Taylor green come out there and say that ATF should be defunded. Well, that position will become a heck of a lot more mainstream. If you actually have an activist in charge of that agency. And I think that would, you know, the republicans would respond one of two ways, once they have the power to replace Chipman either they would try to shut down that agency completely. Or they would put their own activists in charge. Right, which again, a you know, if you're if you're looking for that agency to be professional and aboveboard, you don't want that you want to see that professional in place. If but, you know, again, gun control arguments are not really thinking long term here. I think they they view this just as a golden opportunity. Perhaps the best opportunity they've ever had to place one of their own at one of the highest levels of government. And clearly they're willing to fight on this. You know, I'm really kind of surprised that the White House is still saying the David Shipman's there guy. You know, clearly there are major concerns among at least a few red state democrats like john tester and angus king of Maine and Joe Manchin of West Virginia, although I don't know how concerned Joe Manchin might actually be given some of Politico's report. I think it was about the meeting that he brokered between Jim justice and in David Shipman. But there are legit concerns. And so I really, I don't know what it's going to take for the White House to to cut Chipman loose. But you know, you can't keep holding this out in limbo. And I'd Frankly, I don't know what comes out. Like if you're, let's say you're john tester, and you're still kind of on the fence about what you want to do. What comes out going forward? That makes you feel better about David Shipman. I don't see how anything comes out in the future that makes me more comfortable to vote for the guy, given the concerns that are already out there. So I you know, I don't know what the endgame is here. But I think Chipman is going to remain in a lot of jeopardy. his nomination is gonna remain a lot of jeopardy. You know, even if he tries to address these allegations that we've been talking about here.

Stephen Gutowski  39:20  
Yeah, I think you're probably right about that. I mean, it's not. These allegations, are just getting attention now really, after my piece went up and chairman's nomination was already in limbo. Well, before then, I think his confirmation hearing didn't really sell a lot of these guys on him. He spent most of the time apologizing and then doubling down on some of his more extreme gun control positions. So I don't know if that helped his case much with people like tester and King, but it'll be interesting to see exactly what happens with this. I think when Trump put up his nominee, you know, and Republicans weren't happy with them. Eventually, there wasn't ever really like a big sound like the Republican senators came and had a press conference and we're like, we're not voting for Trump's nominee. It was much more, you know, it was much less climactic than that night is probably be the same way here. If Chipman does end up, going down, they probably just won't ever put them up for a vote and then eventually he'll get withdrawn after everyone's stopped paying attention to the issue. That's what I would more expect. But yeah, you know, I see. I don't know

Cam Edwards  40:38  
it's to me. So when Chuck Hanbury was nominated, That, to me didn't get nearly as much attention. Like we're seeing Politico write these stories about Shipman's nomination in trouble. CNN had a piece Gibbins nominee. So they're they're writing that the votes aren't there. They're not writing why the votes aren't there. That's that's the big difference. So I think if, if the nomination were to get pulled, as opposed to, as you say, just kind of quietly tucked on the shelf, and then maybe two or three months goes by and a reporter at CNN says, Hey, whatever happened to that David chiman. Guy, you're right, that that could very well happen. But I think that there is enough interest here. You know, on the part of the even the Washington based news media, even if they don't want to cover this issue, how I would cover it or how you would cover it. They don't necessarily want to, you know, highlight all of the problems that Republicans have with David Shipman. They do recognize the legitimate story of Okay, you got a democratic president, you got a democratic controlled Senate. They can't get the nominee through. Like if that happens. And again, I'm not suggesting that we've won this fight by any stretch of imagination, because we have not won anything yet. But if that turns out to be the case, I think the media is going to be interested in at least reporting on the failure of the bight administration to get it done. Now, the framing I suspect will probably be look at how powerful the gun lobby still is. Right? The gun lobby still wields this disproportionate influence over senators. I mean, we know it, you know, it won't be that David Chipman was a bad candidate who brought too much baggage to the table. Right? It'll, they'll they'll have their own little spin here. But I don't know if they can actually just ignore gitman not having the votes if in fact, it comes down to to that and and, you know, Democrats ended up ended up defeating Gibbins domination. Right? Yeah,

Stephen Gutowski  42:43  
it could be right. Although I don't remember them making a big deal about Trump's ATF nominee, not not ever getting a vote.

Cam Edwards  42:51  
Now, but there was so much more that they could, you know, be angry about with Trump, you know,

Stephen Gutowski  42:59  
on those days, Yes, true. Right. But, you know, I actually want to go back real quick to something you touched on earlier, which is ETFs. Culture, I guess, or at the very least, how ATF agents perceive themselves. Obviously, there's Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things that have happened with the ATF and things that the ATF has done over the years that, you know, have received legit, very legitimate criticism from gun rights advocates, and you still see today with the way that they have messed with determinations on things like pistol braces are, or the definition of firearm and, and, you know, ghost guns and so forth. The way the agency has sort of, you know, flipped back and forth on the legality of certain items, like bump stocks and, and, and pistol braces, there's, and then obviously, things like waco and, and Ruby Ridge were which involved, you know, the loss of human life, and we're very controversial in the tactics that got employed in those situations. You know, regardless of the, you know, everything involved in the overall wake up standoff with which was obviously, you know, a very, very controversial thing for many different reasons. Whether or not you think that the French divisions were or david koresh was a good guy or whatever. But I think that there's an important dichotomy to point out within the ATF and that you're seeing that in play with these a these agents versus David Shipman, which is that field agents in the ATF list is common, I think, in a lot of law enforcement. They're actually relatively pro gun, I would say for most of them in my experience, at the very least, and certainly they perceive themselves that way. They're more gun enthusiasts. They kind of they like guns a lot. And they view oftentimes there job as just prosecuting violent criminals, right trying to keep guns away from violent criminals, which is a goal that the vast majority of gun owners also support and of course, and then there's a difference between those people and the more administrative side, the firearms technology side, you know, the people who make the determinations about whether a pistol brace is a fire, you know, makes your gun into a firearm or a felony, unregistered, short barrel rifle, right. And shipment The interesting thing that I was told by all three of these sources and the story is that ship Chipman is kind of a chameleon to these guys. From what they told me, at the very least, face, the two of them worked directly with him and said, he wasn't, you know, he was a good guy to them. He wasn't this anti gun zealot when he was working at the ATF that he supported. The industry worked well with them when he was actually an agent. But he didn't make that turn to being a gun control advocate until after he left and went to work for some of these gun control groups. And so that they they all surprised by that turn from, you know, what they viewed as someone like them to somebody who's more hyper partisan and more of a gun control activist now. And I think that could also have a detrimental effect on the agency's view of him internally. How a lot of these agents view him, if he's made director, that seems to be the implication for these guys, is like, they don't really trust him. One of them call them Manchurian Candidate because he, you know, he's like, people have when you work at the ATF for a long time. It's not that big of a agency, frankly, it's it's smaller, right, US Capitol Police Force. So a lot of these guys know each other, and have known each other for a long time. And, you know, the one of the guys who worked with him said, you know, he's asked, he's asked around with all of his other ATF buddies and, and like, nobody could really get a good grasp on on Shipman, and they have this

issue where like, either people are hated people or liked, or there's something in between, but nobody really can nail down what shipment is like, personally, and so I guess that really stuck with these guys. And that these sort of tightening enforcement communities, I think a lot of them are kind of like that. And so shipments sort sort of seems to be on the outs of the ATF community. And so that's not a great sign for, for a director, especially if though, one of the main points of putting him in there is that he worked for, you know, for the ATF for a long time. Right. And you know, that I think that's an interesting thing that's kind of been glossed over, because of all the attention on on the the racism allegations, which obviously are important, but there's a lot more going on with what these agents have said in the piece, then then just that part of it. And, you know, I wonder what your thoughts are on in terms of like, when you've dealt with ATF agents, how do you do you see that same dichotomy between like your field agent and your administrator because, like, another thing that they told me is that Chipman never wrote a case, which was like a big deal to some of these guys, that they had never heard of him right in case meaning like, he never actually went through the whole investigatory process himself on a particular, you know, charge against somebody. And that sort of, I guess, a big status thing for these guys inside of the, the ATF community.

Cam Edwards  49:05  
Yeah, and you think, again, you know, 25 years, you have at least one case that you could point to, you know, it seems to me that what you're describing is almost the, the dichotomy that you see in, you know, other police forces, whether the rank and file cops are at least more publicly outspoken in support of the Second Amendment, then the politically appointed police chiefs, right, and so in the top brass and so I don't know if that's sort of the the same issue at work. But I, I think that the slipperiness that they describe of David Schmidt, like, we know, we worked with this guy for years and years, but we really don't know who he is, or what he stands for, because, you know, he left the ATF and then all of a sudden, it good surprised us to see him, you know, pop up working for these gun control groups. Did he keep his opinions to himself when he was at the ATF before or did his opinions change at some point? This would have been something that I really would have liked to have seen Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee be able to explore with jibon. But unfortunate because of the way that the democrats set up that confirmation hearing, you know, chin was sandwiched in between three other nominees for various federal appointments. And senators only had a couple of minutes apiece, you know, to spend on these four candidates. So if they, you know, they had a legitimate question for this, you know, a person who's up for a US District Judge appointment. Well, that takes time away from questions they might have had for David Shipman. And, again, that was clearly by design. Democrats wanted to try to make this confirmation hearing as easy as possible for Chipman. But it left a lot of unanswered questions on the table like, David, when you say you say you're not going to bring your advocacy with you to the ATF, if you're appointed the permanent director? Well, when did you actually embrace some of these positions? When When did you decide that ar fifteens should be banned that somebody shouldn't be able to own them that they should be registered under the federal government? You know, like, like machine guns are When did you decide that every transfer of a firearm in this country should go through a background check or criminal penalty should apply? Have you? Have you always believed this to be the case? It never came up in conversations with your colleagues? Or? Or is it something that you know, you had a change of heart? Maybe after you got the job offer from Michael Bloomberg, when you retired from the ATF? I mean, I don't know the answers to these questions. But they're there. They're legitimate questions. And so you know, now that these republicans are basically asking for a do over asking for a second confirmation hearing. I don't think they've Durbin's gonna oblige them with a second hearing. But I, you know, I know that there are a lot of questions that weren't able to be asked the first time around, that do I think have a legitimate bearing on the decision that the senators are going to have to make? And I think that it is, it is certainly, I think a valid concern for the senators to have about David Shipman's relationship with ATF employees if he's confirmed beyond beyond his anti gun advocacy beyond what what I worry he would do as ATF director. Again, the whole pitch from the Biden ministration is this guy's a reformer, right? He's gonna come in, and he's gonna make this agency better. Will if agents don't trust him? How's he going to do that? And again, that's a legitimate line of inquiry that neither David Shipman or the Biden, ministration, really, really want to answer.

Stephen Gutowski  52:41  
Yeah. It'll be interesting to see how this all unfolds from here on out, I think, but I really appreciate you coming on, you gave us a lot of your time and a lot of your insight, which is, which I think is fantastic. Can you tell us a little bit more about bearing arms, it's one of the publications that I personally read a lot and link a lot, too. It's one of the best ones out there. In my opinion, there's not a, like I said earlier, there's not a lot of publications that can combine knowledge of guns and knowledge of politics quite as well as you can ever they're bearing arms.

Cam Edwards  53:15  
My appreciate that, like, like, you know, like you I'm not the guy to go to for tips and tactics. You know, I wish that I were but my specialty really is sort of the, the political side of this the legal side of our segment fights. And that's, you know, generally what we tend to focus on at bearing arms so you can get the latest segment news and information. You know, each and every day of the week. Also Monday through Thursday, we do the bearing arms cam and company podcast, which is 2030 minutes is basically a fairly quick look at at one of the top stories of the day, I wish that I had time to do a three hour show every day. Like I used to, but but I don't because I've got the writing to do now. But you know, I do I really appreciate that you say that. Because like I said, I am an admirer of your work as well have been for a long time. So yeah, that means a lot that, that you appreciate what we're doing it bearing arms. I am not. I have never really considered myself a writer by trade. I mean, I started out in television actually, as a well, my very first job in television was the guy who pushed the button that played the commercials and I worked my way up to running a camera and then you know, went into radio and was a radio reporter for a long time. So the writing gig is actually pretty new to me. bearing arms is my first full time writing job. So the fact that you haven't marked my writing skill and style. I greatly appreciate that, Stephen, I thank you very much.

Stephen Gutowski  54:46  
And bearing arms also has a VIP membership as well just like the reload. So yeah, if people want to head over there and get extra exclusive content. I would recommend it And plus, you'll get twice as much beard as you do.

Cam Edwards  55:05  
Exactly. Yes, we give you the full beard on if you're a VIP member Yeah, you can go to a barian arms calm slash subscribe. You can use the super secret promo code guns and get 25% off of your VIP membership and and who knows, maybe we'll even have a contest. We're all like, I'll send you a lock of the beard winning if I ever find that

Stephen Gutowski  55:26  
kind of watching on YouTube. people listening on the podcast might be confused, but go to go to the YouTube channel and you'll see what I mean. Alright, well thank you cam for joining us really appreciate I think your your you gave us some wonderful, wonderful thoughts and insights here. So come back again.

Cam Edwards  55:44  
Thank you for the invite. I will come back whenever you want. And we'll have you on bearing arms cam and coming before long tail sounds

Stephen Gutowski  55:49  
wonderful. All right. And that is it for this week's episode of the weekly reload podcast. I think cam gave us some really good insight there and the hell the whole chicken situation is likely to turn out in the end but I will certainly stay on top of it for you and keep you up to date on the latest developments on that and everything else going on in the gun world. So make sure you are subscribed over at the reload. There's obviously a free weekly newsletter that goes out every Friday morning that gives you the latest on what's happened. And then there's the members newsletter that goes out on Sunday, which will include the early edition of the podcast, along with my exclusive analysis pieces, so make sure you go over and join. I will see you guys again real soon.

Unknown Speaker  56:40  
I gave him poison just for fun. I had one friend. Now there's none. I made the Devil Run. Out broke so many bones. But none of them were ever my own army. I was alone. I broke so many bows

Transcribed by https://otter.ai