Stephen Gutowski  0:00  
California is set to send the personal information of gun owners to researchers. The NRA rescheduled its oversight meetings and an interview with the head of San Diego County gun owners that more on this episode of the weekly reload

Jake Fogleman  0:14  
gave him poison.

Stephen Gutowski  0:15  
Just for fun. Welcome ladies and gentlemen to another episode of the weekly reload podcast. I'm your host Stephen Gutowski. I'm also the founder of the reload calm I'm here with contributing writer Jake fogelman. I feel like when I say contributing writer, it comes out weird every time I listen back to it by the way, Jay, I don't know what do you think Jake I can contributing? Like it sounds like Reuter. I don't know why. I haven't noticed it jacked up on steroids. I know I maybe cuz I edit the podcast. I'm always noticing the weird things that I hear the weird inflections in my voice. Maybe it's set like delco Philly accent creeping in a little bit. could be anyone who watches marriage would or Guess what? Yeah, hoagies and, and all the all the good stuff. I think they call it Huggy mouth is the common term for it in Philly. This sort of elongated O's that we have up there. But anyway, Jake is here again with us. We're gonna have a good episode this week. We've got Jim Garrity. No, that was last week. Boy. This week, we have the head of the San Diego County gun owners, which is even more insightful conversation. I think it's she gives us a name is Wendy Hoffman, she gives us insight into their activism, their level. So we're getting a little more granular this week. In our in our interview, I think it's gets really interesting, frankly. But before we do that, I want to talk about the week's gun news. This week, we found out right that the NRA is has scheduled their oversight meetings. So you know, they had to cancel their annual meeting, which is the big the big event that usually draws, you know, 80,000 nra members to a city for big convention, there's exhibit halls and concerts and speeches from politicians and all the stuff that goes on. And then on top of that, there's also the members meeting and the board meeting, which which are where members and directors have an opportunity to, you know, give input on how the organization is being run offer, you know, resolutions to on different issues on how to change things, or how they want to see reforms happen, or whatever the case might be. And so they have to do those the annual meeting, they don't have to do by their board bylaws, right? They don't have to have the exhibit hall or the political speeches, but they have to do these meetings. And so they've rescheduled them for Charlotte, North Carolina on October 2, which is just about a week from when this podcast is gonna first come out, at least for the members. By the way, if you aren't yet a member, you should join because you get this podcast a day early. And you'll also get access to a bunch of exclusive content written by me and Jake over at the reload calm. But yeah, so so the the meetings are going to take place the members meeting and the board meeting in Charlotte, North Carolina, on October 2, that's the big news of the week they get these oversight meetings and they they're coming at a time where the Attorney General New York Letitia James, who's, you know, called the NRA, a terrorist organization in the past even before she became Attorney General, while she was running, she ran on a campaign of shutting them down and now Well, she's trying to do exactly that, in this case in New York trying to shut down the organization dissolve them and, and

well spread out their assets to other groups, if she's successful in shutting them down. Now, of course, behind that effort are some very serious allegations of financial malpractice or malfeasance from top NRA executives, including CEO wayne lapierre, the general counsel john Frazier, and then the former Treasurer woody Phillips and former chief of staff Josh Powell. They're all for those are names specifically in the soup but she she's arguing that the those executives essentially took millions and millions of dollars of NRA money over the last several years and diverted it towards their own personal expenses. Oftentimes for luxurious purse, you know, private flights or you know, wardrobe or trips. To exotic locations. So the allegations are very serious, and they're very detailed, you put in 187 page, amended complaint this week, you're not this week, just a few weeks ago, and the NRA actually filed its answer to that new amended complaint, where they asked for a number of the charges to be dismissed. And, you know, again attacked, a lot of it was very similar to what they've said in the past about the case, which is, you know, again, that James's political opponent who's out to shut them down, and she's trying to silence their, their membership. And she you know, so they're accusing her of having political motivations and and that the NRA has made reforms to correct any mistakes that did exist within sad any any sort of corruption that was there or, you know, any mistakes that were made, they claimed to have been rectified, even though obviously to the four people named in the Attorney General's lawsuit are still employed by the organization, including the Executive Vice President, CEO, Wayne LaPierre, who is obviously the head and the face of the NRA is still certainly in charge there. And enjoys really broad support from the board of directors from everything that we can see outside of some dissent. From a number of directors over the last couple years, the majority of the board that shows up and, frankly, a lot of the board don't show up to board meetings. But the ones that do overwhelmingly are still supportive of Wayne. But yeah, so what, Jake, it's been an interesting week for the internet. I think that's going to be more interesting next week to see what comes of these oversight committees, their hearings, if anything. Right, right.

Jake Fogleman  7:08  
It should be interesting, the board meeting as well. You know, in years past, you've seen sparks fly, and arguments happen over the direction that the NRA is taking. And so in light of these, this lawsuit and these scandals, it'll be interesting to see if anything happens, you know, at this meeting, like he said, most of the directors that show up to these meetings are generally in favor of Wayne, and we'll probably, you know, stand behind him, but should be interesting to see if anything comes out of it.

Stephen Gutowski  7:31  
Yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting to see how many people show up. This is actually, you know, now some of this, obviously, it's hard to blame the NRA to a certain degree, they had to cancel their annual meeting where these were supposed to happen, because of rising, you know, incidents of COVID in Texas, where they were going to have it. And so now they've rescheduled it relatively quickly, here, it's only been a couple of weeks, and they're already going to have it in a different city in Charlotte. So it's, you gotta wonder how many people or how many actual nra members are going to be able to make the arrangements to show up at something like this. And oftentimes, at board meetings that I've attended in the past, you know, there aren't usually a lot of people who aren't staff or directors that actually go to those things. And, you know, this now, the members meeting is specifically for members, where's the board meeting, members can attend that. But it's not necessarily for members, they don't really have a specific role in the board meetings, they have more of an active role in the members meeting. So we'll see if that draws more nra members in but honestly, in the pay even the, even the emergency board meeting, where they met to discuss the bankruptcy filing, because, you know, Wayne up here, had filed the bankruptcy unilaterally without telling the board about it beforehand without notifying them or getting their approval. So they after that happened, they met in an emergency meeting, to go over whether or not they want to, you know, I guess back this play and and approve the, the filing or not, and which they ended up doing, again, overwhelmingly of the member of the board members who showed up now most right, I think it was about 40 members, give or take, who showed up to that meeting out of the 76 who are on the board. And this is a emergency board meeting about the group's bankruptcy. So you sort of give you some insight into how popular these meetings are even with the actual board of directors who have a fiduciary responsibility to the organization, which means they could be held personally liable for decisions that the group makes, in theory, at least. And so it'll be interesting to see where that goes and how many people show up and whether they do whether there's any real big news that comes out of it because oftentimes, the board meetings there's not like big news that comes out of these things. So well, we'll have to see I'll be there in person to, to report on what goes on. But you know, I The other interesting thing in that analysis that that filing that they did this week in court in New York that the NRA as an entity filed is that it put some distance between itself and wayne lapierre and these other executives who've been named in this suit by essentially saying they aren't accused of enriching the NRA, they're accused of enriching themselves. And so that even if and that's important caveat, I talked, I did a whole analysis piece on this that's available for the members, I get more in depth on on, you know, what this filing means, and what these argument what they're actually saying in this argument. But, you know, one of the key phrases here is, even if they're not admitting that Wayne, or any of the other accused executives did anything wrong, necessarily. They're not admitting that the attorney general is correct in her allegations against these executives. What they're saying is that even if that were the case, right, even if the court holds, that these executives did commit

these various crimes, or, you know, diverted these funds towards their own personal expenses, that wouldn't necessarily implicate the NRA as an organization and wouldn't be a good justification for shutting down the entire 5 million member group, which is something that critics have, you know, essentially said that the NRA is lawyer should be arguing in Frank Tate who's trying to intervene in the cases, just a regular NRA member, has been critical of legal representation from the bureau firm. And this has been one of the criticisms that they aren't representing the NRA well enough. When it comes to the points where the nras interests differ from what wayne lapierre his interests are, you know, in court. And so here, you have them doing that, you know, making that that arguments, sort of a due diligence, kind of thing, like, hey, even if you find that Wayne or, or Josh Powell, or, or woody Phillips, the former treasurer, like the UN, if you find that they did something wrong, doesn't mean that what they did wrong, should lead to the end of the NRA, rising as an institution. So that that's interesting. And it's the first time they've done this, they've made this argument, but I don't, I don't know that it means, you know, Wayne's on his way out or anything like that. I'm sure some people will, will interpret it that way. But I kind of doubt that that is the actual takeaway from this. It's more of a due diligence sort of thing in my mind. But people can read more on that. If they're members, right, if they joined, which again, which you should do that you should join, yes, we have monthly membership $10 a month or $100 for a year. So you get two months off with the annual and then there's also a lifetime, I'm sure if you want to help the reload, grow, if you want to help it sustain it, you you believe in, in this silver serious approach to journalism, informed approach to gun reporting. You know, that's, that's the best way to provide for the future of this publication. We are 100% reader funded, as things stand now and we are completely independent of any gun group or any corporation or anything else. So if you want to help us continue our reporting, that's that's how you can do it. Speaking of which, we have another story that hasn't gotten any real attention that you wrote this week, Jake. on California, they've passed a new law what what is the law do? Yeah,

Jake Fogleman  14:04  
so kind of a last minute law that they passed down to their legislative session, it was in a budget bill, actually. But what the law stipulates is that all transactions have ammunition, firearm parts, basically any firearm transaction because they're already registered in the state of California. Well, the California DOJ is now responsible for sharing that information with a newly established gun violence Research Center at the University of California Davis. So that means that you know, people that purchase ammunition, you go and you do your background check, give your name, your address, all types of personal information. All of that will now be available to gun violence. Researchers at UC Davis and the law stipulates it can go to any other accredited, higher education institution. So theoretically it could be any college in the country could have information

Stephen Gutowski  14:57  
that's accredited by the department or Education could get this information can request it. And it's basically all of the gun owners in California has personal identity information, like their name, their date of birth, their, their address their phone numbers, like everything, every possible thing. And it's really remarkable because this was not something that got a lot of attention in the lead up to it passing, and hasn't gotten the governor signed it yesterday, yesterday as of the recording of this. So Thursday, and yeah, it's remarkable to me like that's, that's a lot of information for a lot of people. And they didn't do anything wrong, either. These are just people who legally bought guns in California or ammunition. Right. Now also, like gun parts, too, are on the list, right?

Jake Fogleman  15:53  
Correct. Yeah, what they call firearm precursor parts. So your receivers, your slides, anything, then you can use to build a gun. Now, anytime you buy any of those individual pieces, your information will be shared with these research institutions, which is interesting. Like you said, You expected, you know, gun groups to be all over this, you'd expect gun outlets to be all over this. You'd even expect privacy advocates, yes, civil liberties, places you would expect to be all over this, because this is a big, you know, breach of privacy, you're sharing personal information for people purchasing lawful goods for institutions all across the country. So yeah, the big law,

Stephen Gutowski  16:31  
any college basically is from from the way that was written Shirky, they could send this to any college in the country who have asked for it. And I mean, it'd be it'd be pretty remarkable enough, if it was just this one Center at UC Davis, but but it's literally any college or university in the entire country. And they don't, it doesn't appear that there's any sort of they have some protections on, you know, the the the researchers can't republish the information under the law, I suppose.

Jake Fogleman  17:03  
Correct? Yeah. When they publish anything, it can't include the personal identifying information. So that's the only stipulation that protects people's identities. But

Stephen Gutowski  17:12  
yeah, and there doesn't seem to be any sort of mechanism in the law for how these how this information is going to be kept confidential when it's being shared across the country, with every with every college or university who asked for it?

Jake Fogleman  17:26  
Well, we've seen in other cases, there's questions to be answered there. We've seen in other instances, you know, in England, a big story broke a couple weeks ago, where their entire gun owners registry got leaked somehow to the media. So we've seen that happen time and time again, even when things are supposed to be kept private, they can still get out. There's still privacy concerns. So

Stephen Gutowski  17:44  
yeah, I believe this. There was a newspaper in New York who published the addresses of all the gun owners in its area. Yeah. And it's just remarkably unfair, I think, to people who are have done nothing wrong. They're there, you're talking about people who have gone through the legal process of buying a gun or ammunition in California, right? Not, not people with criminal records or anything like that. They're not sharing criminal records. They're just sharing their identifying information of everyone's legally bought a gun in the state. So it'll be interesting to see where this goes if gun control if the gun rights groups out in California file suit, and where this ends up and how it interacts with the state's privacy. You know, protections had exist. In California, I believe there's even a constitutional amendment about privacy there.

Jake Fogleman  18:37  
So Article One was the Constitution. Yeah, we'll

Stephen Gutowski  18:41  
have to see where that how this plays out. But there was also another, another California development this weekend in San Diego, right? Sure.

Jake Fogleman  18:50  
Yeah. So yesterday as of recording this podcast, so Thursday, San Diego, the San Diego Mayor signed into law, an ordinance that bans ghost guns, which for their purposes, is any unsterilized receiver or an unserialize firearm is automatic, which goes

Stephen Gutowski  19:07  
goes further than the state law that they instituted.

Jake Fogleman  19:11  
This completely bans the possession and sale of any of that, whereas the state law, you can still purchase them, but it just requires that you register it and get a serial number with the State Department of Justice. So this, you know, city ordinance goes further than that.

Stephen Gutowski  19:25  
That makes it a misdemeanor,

Jake Fogleman  19:26  
right? I believe so. Yeah.

Stephen Gutowski  19:28  
Yeah, that actually dovetails well with the interview we've got coming up here, as I mentioned earlier, that the head of San Diego County gun owners is on with us to talk a little bit about local activism. Their approach to activism, which I think is is fairly unique from some, you know, the way that other groups have operated and some of the successes that they've had even in a place like San Diego, California, which is obviously very deep blue and they're my areas, pet Passing his own gun ordinances. So, yeah, we're gonna move over to that now, actually, and take it away me in the future, slash past when I actually recorded this interview. All right, I'm here with Wendy hoffen of the San Diego County gun owners group, which is done a lot of good work out in San Diego, California. Why don't you tell us just a little bit about yourself for listeners who might not have heard of you or your group before?

Wendy Hauffen  20:34  
Sure. I'm the CEO of San Diego County gun owners were a political action committee focused on Second Amendment rights just at the city and county level. I'm also the program director for our women's mentorship program called not me. We have a couple of chapters throughout the state. We have one in San Diego, one in Riverside County and one in Orange County. I'm also an instructor I, you know, NRA certified and a couple of other certification processes as well. And I've been doing that for about seven or eight years now.

Stephen Gutowski  21:11  
Wonderful. And can you tell us a little bit more, a little bit more about the nominee program? How many women have been involved? Over the last few years here? What What is the goal? And how are you guys carrying that out? Sure. So

Wendy Hauffen  21:24  
I thought, a little over two years ago, I created this program, it's a women's one on one mentorship program. The idea is that we create a space for women to be able to ask all the questions that anybody might have about becoming a gun owner about purchasing and selecting a firearm about getting the right kind of training, and about getting a concealed carry permit. So a lot of this was built on my own experiences becoming a gun owner. When I first got into guns, I was pretty much the only gun owner I knew. So I didn't know where to ask questions. You know, going on Google has very hit or miss results. Sometimes they're accurate. Sometimes you get a bunch of weird answers. And even like going to gun shops, I would get really good information. Or I would get really condescending information, or, you know, anywhere in between. So my idea was to pair up experienced female gun owners who have gone through the process already. And they help out someone who is just starting to explore gun ownership. So it might be answering questions about what kind of gun to pick? Why. A semi automatic versus a revolver, a small gun versus a big gun. What caliber? Where can I find training? Do I want to go get training with the Navy SEAL? Or do I? Do I need to, you know, fly to Arizona and spend $1,000 on a gunsight class, you know, that kind of stuff? Those are really basic questions that take a lot of time to explore and realize what is good information and what is bad. So we just want to be able to provide a comfortable environment for women to ask those questions for women who have already gone through that.

Stephen Gutowski  23:26  
Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. And so you said you've had 500 women go through this program is that

Wendy Hauffen  23:35  
Yeah, yeah. So in San Diego, it's just we're just about to hit 500. And then we've also got a handful in Orange County and a handful in Riverside.

Stephen Gutowski  23:45  
And so what why do you think it's been so successful? I guess it's that that approach that is a bit unique compared to, you know, a lot of these other programs that you discussed, do you think there's a certain, I guess, benefit to having women teaching women that sort of maybe lowers some of the barrier for entry for a lot of women? Is that is that something that comes across or that you notice when you're doing these things?

Wendy Hauffen  24:14  
Absolutely. I think that's a really big part of it. That one of the things that I hear all the time from brand new female gun owners is that they don't want to be the only woman in the room. They don't want to be by themselves. They don't want to look like they have no idea what they're talking about when they go to a gun class. And that's a very normal, you know, normal response for people, but for a woman to step out of the comfort zone and step into a firearms industry. It's super intimidating. And to be able to lower that bar just a little bit has helped a lot. The other thing is obviously the environment over the last two years has been really wild. It's been a crazy roller coaster. And a lot of people who were were on the fence about gun ownership are now really, really interested about buying a gun.

Stephen Gutowski  25:08  
Yeah, so you've you've experienced that surge as well in your training programs, where you've seen more, more people coming in to get training over the last, you know, year and a half, when the pandemic started back in, you know, March 2020. And there was the rioting, and there's food shortages and all these things that we had to deal with. That led to a lot of gun purchases. But you've also seen it lead to a lot of people interested in in gun training as well,

Wendy Hauffen  25:37  
very much. We also had the unique experience of having a riot here in San Diego County, I live just a couple miles from where a very large Riot occurred. The police department was stormed the city hall was broken into the these rioters broke into every store inside a shopping center, they set a couple of buildings on fire, you know, especially the people who live near there, and also even people who live in the county but didn't live near there. They never thought that this would happen in their backyard. And so that made a lot of people realize, hey, I need to be able to defend myself. There were people calling the police and they were just like, I'm sorry, we can't help you right now.

Stephen Gutowski  26:27  
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm sure that would motivate quite a few people to want to, I guess, do what they can to protect themselves at that point. And then I you know, you're you're Asian were American is, as well, obviously. And there have been certainly an increase in hate crimes directed towards Asian Americans. Have you noticed that community coming out to train more as well

Wendy Hauffen  26:51  
as, as an overall community? Yes, I would say so. In San Diego, specifically, and through our program, I think it probably reflects what's going on in the rest of the country. Not a huge increase here, specifically in San Diego, but there's definitely a very big concern about personal safety for Asian Americans.

Stephen Gutowski  27:14  
Sure, sure, certainly. And I know there have been a couple of Asian American groups that have come on to the gun gun rights groups that have come onto the scene lately, as well, for that general movement towards gun ownership in the Asian American community. But but one other thing that's interesting, you guys were featured in The Wall Street Journal's recent piece, where they talked about a study that indicates 50% of new gun owners are women, which is a huge increase over what has traditionally been the case with gun ownership in America. Can you tell me a little bit more about what that means going forward? I think for the gun industry for gun, the gun and community for I mean, America generally what what is this new trend? Say, I think you know a bit about where we're headed. I

Wendy Hauffen  28:11  
think it says that women are starting to be more involved in decisions about home defense. I think in a traditional household, it's typically the man's role to take care of a defensive plan, for example. But now, the women are seeing what's going on across the country, and really taking charge and ownership of being able to participate in that home defense plan. Not only that, because a lot of the women that I work with are women who, for example, the husbands are active duty military, or their law enforcement, or maybe they just have a really busy work schedule. And so the woman is home by herself a lot. And so, in that situation, she's the one who's going to need to be able to protect herself with a firearm at home. The trajectory for the industry, I think, being able to focus on women as a legitimate demographic of customers. It's been getting a lot better over the last couple of years, but I think that the industry is going to really need to be able to step it up over the next five years for example. You know, there was a trend for a while I think the nickname was to pink it and shrink it. And you know, that only goes so far. shrinking it does not make it easier to shoot, it makes it harder to shoot.

Stephen Gutowski  29:48  
That's a common misconception, right? Exactly. And it's getting smaller means it's easier or it's for women or something that's

Wendy Hauffen  29:57  
Yeah, it makes it harder and more uncomfortable and harder. To handle.

Stephen Gutowski  30:00  
So smaller the gun, the less mass, the more recoil you get.

Wendy Hauffen  30:05  
Exactly. So we are seeing a lot more female friendly guns. You know, like, for example, the easy, which is that the Smith and Wesson m&p easy, which is a lot easier slide to rack, more guns that are designed for the ergonomics, for women's hands, those kinds of things, they've been getting better. Now the problem, of course, here in California is that we have a roster of handguns approved for sale. And there haven't been any new guns added on that in many, many years. So we don't have access to any of these new guidance, which is, I think, a really big problem. Yeah,

Stephen Gutowski  30:47  
yeah, no, certainly. And, you know, I've handled the easy, and I kind of wonder why they don't apply that technology to more guns, I mean, that the slide on that gun is remarkable in how easy it is to manipulate. And I think that a lot of people that I mean, obviously it's beneficial to women, who are, you know, on average, smaller than, than men. But I just feel like it's a it's an advantage for almost anyone, like, I'm not sure what the downside is to that slot? I'm not aware of any, frankly, to that design that they've incorporated into that gun. But the upside seems very obvious. It's much easier to rack which I would agree to everyone but but yeah, so so you want to see more more innovations? Along those lines? Right, you want to see more guns adapted to are designed with women in mind. Right? What are other sorts of changes or advancements? What do you want to see from either the industry or perhaps the gun rights movement? as a whole? Like what what are some things that you think could be done to make gun ownership more appealing to women than then it's already becoming an political activism? more inviting to female gun owners?

Wendy Hauffen  32:14  
Wow, that's a that's a loaded question. I think

Stephen Gutowski  32:18  
that things are already going well in that direction. I mean, you know, I don't want to draw conclusions right?

Wendy Hauffen  32:24  
Well, I think within the industry I think it's they're doing a really good job of moving in that direction of normalizing gun ownership and moving towards marketing that is more appropriate towards both men and women. You know, there's less bikinis and, and more men and fully dressed women and in the advertisements, but I think that being accessible and relatable in media is going to be the biggest struggle. Now, if I go pick up a gun magazine, it's full of guns and that is the point of the magazine I get that but it's also really intimidating for a woman who is just just starting to explore gun ownership. So I think the introductory level education as an industry overall, there are a lot of resources but I feel like depending on where you are, it's not as accessible and that's, that's basically the basis for our program because we you know, it's all free. All of our ambassadors who are the mentors, we call them ambassadors, they're all volunteers and all they're doing is just sharing some experience that they've already gone through and you know, creating this comfortable space where they can refer them to reliable resources. So I personally would love to see this program all over the country it's super easy to implement it you know, it's all volunteer base and being able to create that you know, low bar of entry like we were talking about earlier is is such a key to getting more people especially more women involved in the industry.

Stephen Gutowski  34:24  
That makes a lot of sense. And as far as the political activism side of things goes, you know, you guys have been fairly active. Your Mayor there in San Diego just recently signed a actually the day that we're filming this the signed ghost gun ban or so called you know, Ghost gun, I guess it would make it a misdemeanor to possess a an unfinished firearm frame or receiver if it doesn't have a serial number engraved into it is part of a larger effort. both nationally and specifically in California where they've passed laws requiring people to register their homemade firearms. And so, you know, your group is obviously in an area of the country that is fairly hostile towards gunners. Obviously, you mentioned earlier the, the bread, the the roster, the handgun roster, you can only own handguns that are approved by the state as safe, which they haven't updated the list in years, even though guns now are oftentimes much safer than some of the guns on the list in a practical sense of their actual operation. Yeah. And obviously, they allow police officers to carry some of these unsafe, I guess, presumably unsafe firearms, that they won't let civilians purchase or own. But so what what is your activism for your group looked like? What what are you doing to try and affect change in this area of the country that is, you know, relatively hostile to what your goals are.

Wendy Hauffen  36:09  
So the ghost gun ban is a really good example of how the laws that are being created here in California and at the local level, are, are spreading throughout the country. A lot of the anti gun legislation that is in the Senate in the house right now, they're all based on ideas that started here in California. So it's really important to be able to make change at a local level. So we only work on city level and county level politics. And I think it's really important to focus at that level, because the politicians that are at the state level and federal level, I would say the vast majority of them started at some sort of city council or even a school board or a waterboard. They're the ones who are going to move to office and make decisions about firearms and make laws like the roster that make no sense to anyone who knows anything about guns. So it's really important to get involved at the local level, what our organization does is we organize the Second Amendment community, we create a voice for the average gun owner. We're not all, you know, cammo, wearing middle aged white guys who are hunting, although, you know, we have members that do that. But we're all average gun owners, and we're all law abiding citizens who just want to be able to protect ourselves. So one example is we place political pressure on the sheriff. About five years ago, he was running for reelection, and he was previously not issuing CCW. So in our in our county, we had about 3.4 million residents. We had just over 1000 permits at the time. That's a very small number for how big of a county we are. But through several channels of political pressure, through going after his donors, holding up endorsements, telling the media that he has the ultimate authority to decide when and where to issue. We endorsed his opponent who was an openly gay democrat who said that he would issue CCW is for self defense. So he's running against an openly gay pro gun Democrat. And you know, all of this kind of came together. And he ultimately changed his mind. He turned around his CCW policy 180 degrees. Previously, they were turning people away before people could even apply. And now the clerk's are welcoming people in helping them modify their applications to make sure that they get approved. They have increased their staff, they have added software to make the process quicker. You know, over the last five years, we've seen a quadruple in the number of permits that have been issued.

Stephen Gutowski  39:24  
Wow. Yeah, no, that's very impressive. I mean, because obviously, most of the time in California, you're relying on things like legal cases to win back some of these rights that have been restricted over the years, either at the county or the state level. And you know, there was a famous case in California that peruta that almost made it to the Supreme Court that dealt with California's may issue ban and actually, of course, right now there is a case in front of the new Supreme Court about New York's may issue law which is fairly Similar to California, so, you know, you might, you might end up having another court case help some backup there soon. But but it is interesting to see how this sort of local activism that you guys put together there and in San Diego has had a real world impact on, you know, a sheriff that had been restrictive in how he treated applicants for concealed carry law permits, and now has changed his point of view or his practice because of your local activism focused on its, you know, it sounds like a, an approach that's, that's zeroed in specifically and only on gun policy, which I think is interesting, just because of some of the ways that other gun rights groups have taken a more holistic approach, I guess, to, to activism, and perhaps they're not getting involved, legally, or with money in other issues, but they're oftentimes identifying non gun issues with gun ownership, if that makes sense. It's sort of an identity approach, you know, trying to get people more involved in their fight by appealing to their other parts of their politics, you know, for their core demographic of, you know, who they want to become activists. So they might, you know, appeal to somebody, you know, country fandom, or something of country music fandom, or whatever, in addition to their, their desire to, to protect gun rights, whereas like, you know, they might not be as interested in endorsing a democrat who is, you know, gay or, or who supports all a number of different issues that don't have anything to do with guns, but don't line up with what a lot of your traditional gun owners believe in. It sounds like you've taken a bit of a different approach in just laser focusing on the issue. And that had a real impact, like, Is that a fair assessment of how you guys went about doing things? And do you see it as a alternative approach that's been successful for

Wendy Hauffen  42:29  
you? I think it's actually one of the keys to our success is that all we focus on is the second amendment. We don't focus on any other issues. Being able to be relatable about just that one issue allows us to not get involved in any of the other issues, because all we care about as an organization is the second amendment. Interestingly, though, that peruta case you just mentioned, that was actually a case against our sheriff, that same Sheriff who denied permits for 10 years.

Stephen Gutowski  43:04  
And, you know, legal case didn't work. No, we didn't put pressure on but it didn't. The legal case didn't come out in your favor. That's correct. But you were able to anyway, through local activism, change his position.

Wendy Hauffen  43:22  
Yeah. And it just shows that while litigation is a crucial part of any activism plan, that it can't be the end all be all, it took 10 years in court, for gore for Sheriff gore to actually win in court. And so that was 10 years in court with no favorable results. So we can't rely on litigation, we have to be able to make change at the local level and not rely on a court case, which could take upwards of 10 years. Yeah, nothing said we are involved in litigation. But it can't be

Stephen Gutowski  44:10  
to say that court cases aren't important. Um, I got, you know, like I mentioned earlier, there is a Supreme Court case, they have finally taken up a major may issue. Gun carry case may issue for anyone who's listening that doesn't necessarily know is where essentially government officials like the county sheriff have discretion over whether or not they want to issue a permit, even if a person has passed the hurdles in the law. So even if they pass the background check and completed the training that's required, they can still be denied. If the local government official does not you know, the one who's in charge of issuing permits doesn't believe they have a good reason to to have a permit or they can read in New York's case. You know, the laws are a little different. New York has a they'll issue you a permit, but then they'll say you can only use in certain certain Some stances, which don't apply to most public areas. And so you know, you guys are really interesting case to me, because I think a lot of the new gun owners who've come into the fold over the last year and a half all the Zio, if nssf estimates are to be believed it's, you know, something like 12, almost 12 million new gun owners in the past year and a half. I, you know, I wonder what the effect of that is going to be. And I don't think it's going to be that people are going to suddenly switch from being, you know, party line democrat voters, to party line Republican voters, even if they start to change their mind on guns. And that's why this approach that you're talking about here, and the success of it is intriguing to me, because I feel like that's the more realistic expectation for how new gun owners who have traditionally voted for Democrats or have not traditionally been, you know, Republican voters. That doesn't, obviously doesn't necessarily mean the party line Democratic voters. But the, that's a more realistic view of how they can, they will have an impact long term on the politics of guns. And I think the way that your group has approached this issue with concealed carry permits in San Diego, and the success that you had, is real, really a shining example of that. Like it's really shows what's possible for these, these kind of new gunners and how you, I guess, bring them into the gun rights community, and don't necessarily expect them to become, you know, a party line hardcore, Republican voter, or, you know, even NRA member or whatever, they're still a significant role that they can play, or that they will play in affecting gun politics by moving perhaps the Democratic Party back towards more pro gun policies than they would like, do you think that's a fair assessment? Do you think that's a realistic view that I just put out there? Is that something that you've taken away from your experience?

Wendy Hauffen  47:33  
I think that with gun ownership, it is something that people are so passionate about that they tend to be that it tends to be a deciding factor. So if there is someone who they don't really have an opinion about between, you know, two candidates, for example, if one of them is pro gun, and one of them isn't, they're going to vote for the pro gun. Pro gun candidate. So there isn't there's enough either single issue voters or indifferent voters who care a little bit about guns, that I think it does make a really big difference.

Stephen Gutowski  48:09  
Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, because I think the expectation, you know, the was, Oh, these are these new gun owners. So, you know, Joe Biden is very anti gunner, he's very, he wants to enact a lot of new gun control. And Donald Trump is, is, you know, rhetorically, he's very pro gun and, and he's endorsed by the NRA, and you know, all this. So clearly, all those new gun owners are gonna immediately vote for Donald Trump, he's gonna win the election. Or you can replace any of these candidates in any race. And you know, I don't think it white, it works quite that way. One, I think it takes a while for someone who, who, especially in the midst of chaos, who's concerned about their safety goes out and buys a gun. They're not immediately thinking about politics of that decision, you know, within the next month or two of doing it, as it takes time. And then not all of those people will become single issue gun voters or will just because they change their mind on guns will change their mind on all the litany of other issues that people make up their minds on when it comes to voting for candidates. But it just seems to me that probably enough of them will change their point of view on the gun issue, in particular, that it could have an effect not just on republicans beating democrats but on democrats changing their positions on guns like you've been able to have happen with the sheriff in San Diego County. Like that just seems to me like a more realistic view of the long term effect of these these new gun owners and someone like you and Your organization is doing kind of the conduits for that, that action, it takes somebody who just bought a gun, because they were worried about their home getting broken into during the ride in San Diego, and taking them to be more of a regular user of there, getting training, going the range, making some other friends who own guns, and then from there moving perhaps into more the activism side of things, you know, working at the county level to, you know, endorse this Sheriff candidate over this Sheriff candidate, because he has a better policy on issuing concealed carry licenses. Like that seems like the net a more natural and realistic progression for a new gun owner who wasn't previously voting on gun rights to become somebody who is voting on gun rights. Does that make sense?

Wendy Hauffen  50:58  
Yeah, I think the other thing there too, is that as they become new gun owners, they realize that the narrative about how easy it is to get a gun and all the loopholes that exist, I think they realize that these, those don't really exist, they're not really there, it is really hard to get a gun in California, right? The and the average non gun owner probably believes that our government isn't trying to take away our guns. But then you really get more into learning about how many gun laws there are, and how difficult it is to be a lawful gun owner in California, then they start seeing, okay, there are so many laws that are only there for the purpose of making it harder to become a law abiding gun owner. So you know, like the roster, for example, it's just the way that it's written right now, it's impossible to have any new guns added to the roster. So there's no good reason to have this roster anymore. You're not limiting the sale of guns that are safe, quote, unquote, to Californians, what you're doing is is keeping us from being able to have access to the technology that's been developed over the last 15 years. Does that make us safer? Because I don't think it does. I think it actually makes us less safe. We're limited to the amount of guns that we have access to a woman with small hands of small stature in California, who wants a gun for concealed carry? Has like two options on the roster? And that's not acceptable.

Stephen Gutowski  52:43  
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think those are very legitimate complaints that you have there. And, and I imagine you will continue to push forward on changing things in San Diego County and California at large. If somebody wants to get involved with your group, how can they do that? What's the best way,

Wendy Hauffen  53:05  
we have lots of opportunities, you can check out our website, it's San Diego County gun owners calm. You can find all of our social media platforms there, sign up for our email newsletter. We do new shooter events, we have our women's mentoring program, we promote the organization at gun shops all over the county. There are definitely tons of ways to get involved in a really easy way. And, you know, you can donate time, or you can donate money as well. So we're a membership based organization, you can contribute $10 a month is our basic level of membership. And that just helps make sure that we have paid full time staff who are working on Second Amendment rights all the time, at the local level.

Stephen Gutowski  54:03  
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And giving us your time. This is really interesting conversation. And I hope you'll come back again in the future to update us.

Wendy Hauffen  54:13  
Anytime. Thank you so much for having me.

Stephen Gutowski  54:16  
I'm here with reload member, Brian stupid, do the new episode of the segment that I really enjoyed doing a lot actually where we meet some of the reload members and find out who they are, what they like, what their background is, how they got into guns, why they subscribe to the reload, that sort of thing to really kind of take a look at our own community of members. And say, Brian, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Brian Stube  54:42  
Well, thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed this segment. And thought was really cool that I had a chance to come on and talk to I'm kind of new to the firearms community. I got into it about three years ago as an activity to do with my father in law and I thought it was more important to me now that I had I moved from the city into the suburbs and felt a little more responsibility to take on to protect my house and my family.

Stephen Gutowski  55:12  
Okay, so So what was your first gun? What was your first shooting experiences? You said it's only a couple years ago, right? When you use Yes, sort of like a family building? Exercise kind of deal. What so what did you What did you do?

Brian Stube  55:28  
So actually, my brother in law I used his Glock 34 for my first experience at a range. So that was like a longer pistol. Easier shoot, and then I think my first one ended up being a Cz p 10. c nine millimeter pistol. And that's actually my favorite handgun. It's a really nice trigger.

Stephen Gutowski  55:48  
You can shoot, you have your own guns now.

Brian Stube  55:51  
Yeah, yeah. So actually, last year, I ended up buying a few different ones, I bought a rifle, like an AR type rifle, and a bolt action rifle as well. And then a smaller pistol for everyday carry. Because I'm five, nine, I'm like 150 pounds. So it's hard for me to hide a full size one with the clothes I wear?

Stephen Gutowski  56:12  
Sure, well, I mean, I'm six, one and 255. And I still carry a subcompact nine millimeter.

Brian Stube  56:19  
Nice, nice.

Stephen Gutowski  56:21  
They're just, you know, easier to conceal it with regardless of what you're wearing, you know, especially with the right kind of holster and setup. But so so that's pretty fast transition you went from not? Have you ever shot before, you know, a couple years ago? Or is that really your first time even shooting at all?

Brian Stube  56:39  
I think once in Las Vegas for a bachelor party trip we went somewhere where you could shoot like full auto. Yeah. And that was it. That was it until you know, three years ago.

Stephen Gutowski  56:50  
Yeah, those places are fun. I've been to a bunch of this, but

Brian Stube  56:53  
I have to go again, now that I know something about firearms, because that kind of just like, quick and intense experience now I think I'll get more out of it.

Stephen Gutowski  57:01  
Oh, yeah, yeah, those are great. And honestly, I've, I've always thought those were counter-intuitively a really good way to introduce somebody to shooting if they don't have. Like, if you don't have somebody who's like an experienced shooter that can teach you I mean, obviously go to a trainer. And that's ideal. Yeah, but otherwise, like, if you just want to try out shooting and you don't have someone to go with those attraction places in Vegas or Orlando, there's, there's a lot of them around are pretty good way to get started. Because one, they they have not just a range safety officer watching everyone shoot, but they have an individual range safety officer for every group. And they they will walk you through the process of shooting and supervise you while you do it. So that safer than if you just tried to go to a range by yourself and rent a gun without any assistance and you've never shot before. And you know, obviously that can be very irresponsible thing to do so. And then on top of that, you also get the experience of shooting full auto, which is exhilarating and fun for most people. And so you can have that range of experience in a relatively very safe environment. compared to some of the alternatives for first time shooters, you don't have somebody who can take them shooting. But But yeah, so you went from, you know, doing the attraction, you know, stuff in Vegas to you know, shooting for the first time with your father in law to now you carry a firearm, that's pretty, you know, quick transition over just a couple years. Not Not that that's uncommon. But, you know, I find that interesting. So you've made that jump from just getting into shooting as something to do with your family. And now it's something that you also rely on for self protection to the point where you you actually got a permit and you carry a gun on you, you know, on your person when you're out in public or at least you know, I don't know yeah, you don't need to disclose your, your full routine or anything, but, but that's just an interesting progression there.

Brian Stube  59:12  
Yeah, I remember when my father in law first said he was going to get a permit to carry. I was like, Why? Why would you ever need to it's just seems kind of scary and crazy. And then a few months later, I got my own permit. And what helped a lot also was watching videos on YouTube, like active self protection is a great channel to sing about Great.

Stephen Gutowski  59:30  
Great podcast, too, by the way. Yeah.

Brian Stube  59:36  
Yeah, but this is a great crossover, a great a great partnership there.

Stephen Gutowski  59:41  
Yeah, no, absolutely, though, that that's interesting, too, because that's kind of a new resource over the last decade or so. Having real quality advice and training available online. You know, as a resource in addition to, you know, what you can get in person at a rate Obviously, it's not a replacement necessarily for in person training, but, but it's a new resource that I think a lot of new shooters, like yourself, have gotten into, and then that I personally have used a lot, myself as well, including specifically active self protection, because that gives you a really good insight into the reality of armed self defense and the reality of the dangerous that exists in the world. You know, every day for everyone, so that's really cool. So since you started, why you started shooting started doing some research online, watching active self protection videos. And that changed your mind from what I think is a very common honestly, view of carrying a gun every day, which is, you know, why would you need to do that? Why would you like, what do you need a gun for when you go into the grocery store? Right? Like, that's how I think most people approached the concept of gun carry, and changed your perspective towards one of maybe a preparedness, even though, you know, a violent event might be rare, it's not impossible. Is that an accurate, you know, assessment of how things went for you?

Brian Stube  1:01:16  
Yeah, that's, that's fair. Yeah, and just seeing what can happen to people, like everyday people will never do circumstances. And then, you know, it also taught me about carrying one of the chamber, which took some time for me feel comfortable with, but if you're in a circumstance where your life is in danger, or someone's life's in danger, you don't want to have to take that extra time to chamber around. Yeah, and then also, I found that channel very helpful and similar videos very helpful for understanding the complexities legally, that you need to know when you're carrying, like when it's not dedicated to legal issues, but whether or not you're allowed to take to pull your, your gun in a way that's not brandishing, or is brandishing, um, there's important things to know there. And there are a lot of cases, kind of famous ones lately, like the almost every case, and then also the McCloskey use in St. Louis. If you look at a different situation, or different ways, might think like one or the other party might be okay, or allowed, but to do what they were doing, but you need to know, like, the full context. And as a carrier, you need to be aware of all the complexities there. So you don't screw yourself.

Stephen Gutowski  1:02:28  
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it says, like, your duty that you have to be responsible when you're carrying a firearm, right. You know, in public, it's a it's not a toy, obviously. And so you need to understand the, the responsibilities that come along with with that, in addition to the rights that you have to exercise that ability, but yeah, I mean, I find that really interesting. So So what, as well, you know, in addition to that stuff, so you got into the you got into shooting you got into learning more about concealed carry and armed self defense. What What got you into more? following gun news, again, politics, subscribing to the reload? What What was the progression there?

Brian Stube  1:03:15  
Good question. It had been bit by bit, I probably found your you through some of the National Review. former colleagues, potentially, colleagues of yours in the past? Or just friends review? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just like, I found that following individuals for news and content, you can learn to trust them better or what they're, whether they're trustworthy or not. And I found those people to be reliable to like, Tell, tell the facts, truthfully, and true, will have opinions, but there won't be too much spin. And then so that led me tell you as someone trustworthy, and I found you definitely be the case. And so I wanted to support that kind of content. And it's also very useful. Just follow.

Stephen Gutowski  1:04:05  
Yeah, well, I mean, I think the I said this a lot on the podcast, right? But me my tweets, but really, the members are what makes this whole thing possible. You know, the reload is 100% funded by members. And it wouldn't, wouldn't be able to exist without them, you know. And so, I think it is really key that people who want to see more independent firearms journalism that's done in the, with the serious approach that that I've tried to take, you know, I really do need their, their help and their support. So yeah, I'm always glad when somebody you know, it makes that commitment to support what what I'm doing with the reload, and and hopefully also get, you know, valuable insights in return, you know, get value from it. You know, the the exclusive posts in the Sunday newsletter that's exclusive for members and, and early access to the podcast and so forth. But But, you know, that's, that's one of the reasons I wanted to do this segment is just to see what, you know, what is it that drove people to want to help create something like this or help sustain and grow something like the reload. And so that's really interesting is I think that's a mirrors my approach a lot to, to how I consume news, which is less about what outlet somebody works for. Now, obviously, there's, you know, outliers here, like, you know, Infowars, I'm not gonna take stuff that somebody is writing for, if you write for Infowars, that's not going to be a good mark in my book of credibility. But, you know, I find following the individual writers to be more useful in this day and age than just judging off of what outlet they're publishing for, you know, within reason, right. And so yeah, I mean, I guess that's probably part of the reason why the reload can exist at all. Is that sort of new approach? Sure. I don't know if it's new, but that that kind of approach to journalism and to to vetting your sources, being able to follow what, how their career has gone, and whether you can judge their credibility and, and their I think

Brian Stube  1:06:34  
as a as a consumer also, it's, um, it's something actually, I enjoy finding people doing good work that I can support, I find it more meaningful than just, you know, buying a subscription to a newspaper or something.

Stephen Gutowski  1:06:48  
Yeah, that makes sense to write. I mean, certainly, your subscription has a much bigger impact on whether or not the reload exists than if you were to buy into the New York Times, or the Lancers. So obviously, it says certainly the individual impact is much larger on a publication like the reload. But yeah, I mean, I, again, I really appreciate your support, personally, and then the support of the members generally. And I hope to have a lot more members on in the future to do this segment. Because I really find it fascinating. It's interesting to talk to the actual community that we're building here. So I really appreciate you coming on. And and yeah, I hope to have more, more members on like you very soon. Well, thank

Brian Stube  1:07:36  
you for the work you do awesome story on the ATF and hopefully, many more to come. Hey, that's,

Stephen Gutowski  1:07:42  
here's support makes our journalism possible. So you know, the members are just as responsible for the impact of our reporting as I am so yeah, thanks. Thanks. Alright, that's it for this episode of the weekly reload podcast. Remember, if you join, you get this podcast a day early. Like all the other members, it's a big perk. It's wonderful. And in addition to that, you also get access exclusively to certain content, like my recent analysis piece on what the NRA putting distance between itself and wind up here in a recent court filing actually means, where's that going? Why did that happen? Find out if you subscribe, and read the piece. Anyway, I'll see you guys again. On the next episode.

I gave him poison, just for fun. I had one friend. Now there's none. I made the devil right. I broke so many bones. But none of them. I was alone. I broke so many bows.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai