Stephen Gutowski  0:00  
The Taliban in confiscating guns in Kabul, and an interview with Philip Smith of the national African American gun Association. That more on this episode of the weekly below podcast.

Unknown Speaker  0:14  
I gave him poison just for fun.

Stephen Gutowski  0:17  
Hey guys, Stephen Gutowski here, founder of the reload calm and host of the weekly reload podcast. Remember, you get this today early if you go over to the reload, calm and become a paid member, on top of a number of other wonderful benefits that you have received by joining like access to exclusive posts that feature more of my analysis on different topics of the week, and all the latest gun stories, as well as a weekly, Sunday newsletter that features my analysis as well. But let's get started this week. We saw a horrible tragedy unfold in Afghanistan, obviously, and which did bleed into the gun world with the Taliban, telling residents of Kabul to surrender their firearms, promising them that they would be safe and that they no no longer needed. Weapons for personal protection now that the Taliban has recaptured control of the country. The repressive violent terrorist supporting regime claimed that it residents no longer had anything to worry about now that they were back in charge due to the American surrender, which has unfolded, rather chaotically as I'm sure you're all aware, obviously, many Afghans did not buy these promises and some clung to the sides of American jets in desperate attempts to escape the country. Apparently not reassured by what the Taliban had to say, some sadly, falling to their death during that horrific scene. We also had a number of court rulings this week on gun rights that were victory victories for gun rights advocates we saw in Pennsylvania, a Gun Club was able to convince the Third Circuit panel of judges on the Third Circuit to vacate a lower court ruling that upheld regulations in the Pittsburgh area I locality that banned the use of centerfire rifles at the gun clubs range. Those restrictions were ruled to be unconstitutional under the Second Amendment, and the case was remanded for reconsideration by lower courts, which effectively means that the regulation likely won't survive. And then in Hawaii, there were a pair of rulings this week, that are a ruling and a stipulation is sort of a legal agreement out of out of the beautiful state of Hawaii, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. First up was Honolulu, the City and County of Honolulu agreed in really kind of record time to get into a lawsuit that was filed against the practice in that city have denying people gun purchase permits based off of disorderly conduct violations, not even criminal charges in that in that case, and the city quickly folded. Once this lawsuit was filed. 10 days later, they signed an agreement with plaintiffs that they would no longer deny people based off of their history of violating a disorderly conduct regulation. So in addition to that, the same lawyer Allen Beck actually as involved in both of these cases, he also won in front of a federal judge in a suit against two provisions in Hawaii's handgun purchase permit process, where they had required that applicants

show up in person at police stations for inspections of their handguns before completing the purchase. And also that the handgun purchase permits are only valid for For 10 days, this had caused a lot of issues, obviously, especially in the age of COVID-19, where oftentimes, the in person appointments were not available within that 10 day period. But either way those both of those restrictions were found to be unconstitutional and violation of the Second Amendment. And we're struck down by a federal court this week. So quite a number of advancements on the gun rights front, several victories for gun rights advocates in court in federal court this week, across the country. And then obviously, the very sad situation for the people of Afghanistan this week and a real world gun confiscation has begun in Kabul, as the Taliban takes control. But in better news, the reload has a new contributor, contributing writer and I thought I'd take a little bit of time just to introduce you guys. to him. He actually wrote the piece on the Pennsylvania ruling, and we're hoping to see more pieces from him some news and analysis. So without further ado, I will introduce you to him and then we will go as well to Philip Smith from the National African American gun association to discuss some other issues. So here we go. I never know, I never know how to like, put a good transition is for the prettiest things. But Forgive me, let's move right on into the the first interview with our new contributor. Hi, everybody, I wanted to introduce you to a new member of the reload family here. Jake fogelman is going to be a contributing writer over at the reload Comm. We'll be offering written reports as well as some analysis pieces coming up in the future as sort of an internship for him. He's newly on board, and I hope to to mold him in my my image here at the reload. Jake, Jake wants to tell us a little bit about yourself.

Jake Fogleman  7:15  
Sure. Yeah. Like I said, I'm Jake fogelman. I'm 24 recent graduate of Metropolitan State University at one Denver. I'm a Colorado native born and raised. And I even said just getting into writing for the first time as a big fan of guns and all things gun culture. So

Stephen Gutowski  7:41  
so what what makes you want to become a you know, a journalist, writer, about about firearms in particular?

Jake Fogleman  7:50  
Sure. So my interest in firearms kind of started from a pretty young age, I grew up in a house that my father own guns, his father own gun is kind of par for the course Russ. And I got the first gun. Shortly after I graduated high school I got I got a shotgun. And I just keep shooting, I had a buddy that took me hunting for the first time got into hunting, which then got me into more guns as I got older and was old enough to purchase handguns gotten into target shooting, started learning more about self defense and get a concealed carry permit. And now I'm an everyday carrier. So firearms really just became kind of a part of my my personal life. I got really interested in it.

Stephen Gutowski  8:33  
Nice. Yeah, no, that was similar story for me. I guess. You know, when I first got into firearms, I wasn't really, I never shot a gun until after college. Actually, I think a lot of people are surprised by this fact. But But, you know, I grew up in southeastern Pennsylvania. But never, my mom had a gun, she had like a little 22 rifle, the little squirrel engraved on the stock, but we've never really shot guns at all when I was growing up. And so I didn't get into it until I moved down to Virginia and became involved with the writing about media. And so yeah, and then from there, I obviously had this similar sort of path, I got very interested in it, you know, to the point where I, you know, build my own guns now and and also have a concealed carry license. So pretty interesting, very, it's pretty similar tracks there. I would say, what what made you want to start doing reporting now that now that you've graduated from school? What is it that that appeals to you about? You know, storytelling, I guess?

Jake Fogleman  9:40  
Sure. Well, it specifically has to do with with the gun angle. I saw what you're doing. And you're one of the few people I feel like that are covering guns with a perspective of actually having some knowledge and background. You know, that's not necessarily the fault of the other people doing it. They may have just grown up around guns or talked to many gun owners. But you know, I wanted to be someone that can contribute to that, you know, having personal knowledge of guns and could report on them accurately and fairly. And so I wanted to do my best to get into that.

Stephen Gutowski  10:17  
Yeah, great. Well, I think we'll have a lot of opportunities for you here to write about interesting stuff, which means, in the end, more content, more good content for you guys, the listeners, the readers of the reload. So I think this is gonna work out really well for everybody. And we're happy to have you on board. And I look forward to seeing more of what you're writing, we got your first couple pieces have gone up this week already. So people can head over and and check them out. We got you know, your buyers up on our about page, people want to read a little bit more about you. And yeah, I think it's gonna be I think it's gonna be a good ride. Yeah, I'm excited here. Yeah. And I think I hopefully will be able to teach you some stuff about how to do all of this. And, and hopefully, you'll be able to break some interesting stories for us. You know, I think that's where, where we'll, we'll have a great QA yoke nexus of, of mutual benefit. And and so, you know, we'll probably have you on the podcast again, too, in the future, as well, you know, if you'd like to be, of course, and we'll, we'll have the listeners hear more from you. But in the meantime, this week, we're actually going to be talking to Philip Smith from the National African American gun Association. Here. That's the next interview up. So I think you guys should stick around for that. I think he gives a lot of interesting stuff on the shipment front of ATF director, as well as the growth of, of black gun ownership in America over the last couple years. So make sure you stay tuned and listen to that. All right, we're here with Philip Smith of the net, who's the national president of the National African American gun Association. Thank you for joining us. I've wanted to get your perspective on some of the things have been happening in the news. And obviously, I know your group has grown a lot over the last year and a half here. And we wanted to talk a little bit about those trends that we've seen in gun ownership in America. But can you introduce yourself to the audience for anyone who might not know who you are and what you do?

Philip Smith  12:29  
Sure. I'm Philip Smith. I'm the national president and founder of the national African Association, otherwise known as NACA, we are an every, we have members in every state and we are about 130 or so chapters, we had average on a monthly basis, about 1000 new members, roughly 12 100,000 new members every month, very aggressively growing, a lot of good folks joining trying to learn about guns 70% of our folks, or we call in newbies, for some gun owners, which is, which is a treat, you get a chance to really teach folks from the very beginning. We're very, very focused on training, training, training. But we also have a social activist portion in terms of talking about the Second Amendment. We're not a politically oriented organization in terms of we are nonpartisan, but we will discuss those issues that affect the Second Amendment. And we try to defend that second amendment pretty vigorously.

Stephen Gutowski  13:23  
Yeah, yeah. You've certainly been getting more involved in the political activism side of things lately, especially with the nomination of David Shipman to lead the ATF. I know, you've had a piece recently published, I believe, was over at Town Hall. Yeah, where you talked about his his nomination and some of the issues you have with it, and some of the questions that you want him to answer? What what, you know, what do you want to say to him? What are what are the top concerns you have about David Shipman, at this point?

Philip Smith  13:51  
If I could talk to him right now he was in the room, I would be very, you know, direct with him and ask him, you know, one, his seemingly heavy bias that his statements in the past have an anti gun clearly, regarding the rights of normal citizens. I'm not talking about folks that walk around and yachts and all that good stuff, we're talking about the normal Joe and Jane at walk around have to do have to do the normal things with a gun. I think his stance is somewhat aggressive against the second wave. And I think that makes him very, very dangerous in terms of potentially being a nomination, too. I think his statements that he's made in the past in terms of his perspective, from a racial standpoint, with some of the members the black members at the ATF are suspect that at best, and for his HR file to disappear suddenly we're no one can view it and get any type of public perspective is traveling at a minimum. So from those two stances, I think he's very, very problematic as a as a candidate.

Stephen Gutowski  14:56  
And obviously at the reload here, we broke a story Just recently on a new allegation from a black ATF agent, former agent who said that Chipman had targeted him during a promotion assessment and accused him falsely of cheating. He claims that there was an investigation into shipments claims against him and that he was cleared. The Department of Justice has confirmed that shipment did initiate this kind of investigation against one agent. They didn't give any further details beyond that, other than to deny any sort of racial bias on the part of David Shipman. But I was wondering what your reaction to this story is to this claim? I

Philip Smith  15:42  
think it troubled me the most. And I'm very familiar with that particular allegation. The thing was really troubling after that guy was going through all this, his career was pretty much put on standstill. And he was he was a question mark, you know, next to his name, no matter what he does for the rest of his life in within the ATF based on these allegations, are this, this stigma that David Shipman put on them? And I think that's, that's just not a good thing to do. And I still, you know, want to have someone in a leadership position in the United States government. With that type of perspective, I just don't. For me, it's not tolerated. It should not be tolerated in any way, shape, or form. on any level.

Stephen Gutowski  16:24  
Yeah, absolutely. And you've, you've mentioned in your piece that, as far as potential alternatives, go to david Shipman, like you would have preferred to seen the acting director, be nominated by President Biden over over David Shipman? Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Philip Smith  16:42  
Yeah, I'm just a big believer from growing from within. This guy has been here for what 20 plus years the acting director, he's known within the ranks, he's well respected. He is based on what I've seen, I can't say these anti gun, our program, but he certainly has a neutral perspective. And I think that's the kind of person you want in that position at the ATF, as someone that has a good wind have enough support behind him or her. And it seemed like the department would really rally around that particular person for for the position as opposed to someone that's coming from the outside, who really doesn't know the culture, or has been separate from the culture so long, he's kind of seen as an alien. And I think what's most troubling with David Chapman is his relationship with the Giffords to me, that is the that that's a that's a no go. You can't advocate against guns, and then suddenly be put in position where you're supposed to protect gun rights. It just, it doesn't mix. And I think he should be removed completely by my President Biden, without any hesitation.

Stephen Gutowski  17:49  
Okay. And so, to talk a little more broadly here about black gun ownership in America, you know, obviously, you're at the center of this growth your group has has grown alongside black gun ownership over the last year and a half around, you know, we saw the National Shooting Sports Foundation put out a dealer survey that indicated the fastest growing group of gun owners in America are African Americans, which is something we've been hearing for a while now from the industry. And what do you think is motivating more African Americans to start becoming gun owners? Obviously, we've seen this in recent years, that opposition in public polling at least, yeah, many in the African American community towards gun ownership, or at least they're more open to stricter gun laws on, you know, in a lot of these polls, why, like, do you see this as with this, these new gun owners in the black community, as indication that that's beginning to shift? Or what? How do you see this? You know, from someone who's who's representative of the largest African American gun group?

Philip Smith  19:03  
That's a great question, Stephen. I think first of all, it's kind of a three headed monster. I always kind of put everything in categories as it relates to our growth as a as black folks. One is just a maturation process of our community. We and that's the reason why NACA was built, we're trying to get that information out slowly to millions and millions of African Americans. right now as we speak, we have about 12 million African Americans with guns right now already in the in the country. So that speaks to a good a good start. Still not you know where I would like it to be with. So let's start. So what we're trying to do is to educate those folks and many, many others, that it's okay to have a gun. A gun is part of your rights as an American and you have the second amendment to back you up on that and to be active when you see things like our David Chipman, and all that stuff going on. So we are constantly educating, sending out emails, letting him or her know that's a member about their gun rights practicing channel Learn how to shoot a gun, how to hold a gun, all that basic stuff that they are needing to learn. So that's one piece, the maturation process. Secondly, the the elephant in the room, the thing that really changed the game for everybody was COVID-19. When that happened, as you know, everybody was kind of put on pause, and you kind of took a look around you and you for once in your life for most folks that I know, including myself, you worried about the stability of the country? You're worried about food sources? or resources? Is there going to be gas at the station? Is there going to be more violence coming in? and bottom line? Would you be able to protect your family if something were to happen? And I can't tell you how many folks called me who were anti gun, they were friends of mine, but they said, Hey, Phil, you know, I like what you're doing. I don't agree with it. But I appreciate it to him, but I'm not going to ever buy a gun. Hundreds of those folks call me saying Phil, I need to get a gun, which gun Do I need to get? I'm really scared. That was the major thing which really affected not only black folks, but anybody in this country, because you had to really consider as a man as a woman, as a family as a as a unit. As a community. Okay, this looks pretty serious here. The country's shutting down, I can't go to work. Money short, you know, is, as I said before, is mob violence coming down along with food shortages. So that that was the The main difference. I think, among any other factors that are happening in the in our community. The last piece in the third factor, there's been tension, let's face it has been tension in the country, on some of the political

You know, I'm not gonna say, agendas, but a lot of the political stuff in the last quarter the election cycle, and folks were kind of nervous about that, and particularly our community. So we kind of saw some stuff going on, that we didn't really feel comfortable with. So a lot of our folks are going out and buying guns because of that also. So if you combine all three of those factors, it's kind of a perfect storm for organizations like myself, to educate folks to give them to give them support, and to help them feel comfortable, and to kind of reassure them that everything's gonna be okay, you have a firearm to protect you, somebody breaks in your house at 2am in the morning, you need to protect your wife and your and your kids. And that's what the bulk of people that join our organization wants to do. They just want to be able to protect their family, their property. And that's the basis of our growth. Because we're very, very pragmatic in our approach. We're kind of like McDonald's, when you come to us, you know, what you're going to get where we're at, we stay in our lane, we are not, we don't try to act like we're something that we're not. And I think that's the beauty of the organization. And I'll make this last point. When folks come to nagda, regardless of your race, gender, sexual orientation, we call you family, we want to give you a high five, and give you a big hug. And we're gonna say welcome, brother, welcome sister to organization, and we're going to make you comfortable, and you are going to become you will have a good time shooting. After that, you know, at the range, you're going to go have some pizza or hot dogs and kind of hang out with one another, you're going to talk about old war stories about you know, the first gun you bought, or, you know, how groupings were tight today, and all that good stuff. And that is a good feel, regardless of what color you are, regardless of what how you vote. And that's the strength of the organization. That's why we're getting over 1000 people every month, because people know that, you know, I go to Phil's group, they're gonna accept me. And they're going to teach me how to how to shoot a gun, and I'm going to be comfortable, and everything's gonna be very, very positive. And that's what we try to do. Now, if you want to talk about politics, you're welcome to do that. But you don't have to. In our group, we have a saying, and this is very, very important that I tell you this, we agree to disagree, but not disconnect. Meaning that you and I are together in the meeting. And you say, hey, Phil, I just don't think we should open carry. I don't think people should open care. I think it's a bad thing. And I'll say, Stephen, you know, I hear what you're saying, brother. But I think everybody should have the right to open carry and we can have that discussion, we can go back and forth. When in the day, you will look at me and say Phil, you're not gonna change my mind. And I say, Steven, you're not gonna change my mind. Either. We're gonna give each other a shake. And that's okay. And that's what we mean that nag you can have different perspectives, different views, and still be right in the mix of things. You're not gonna be ostracized, you're not gonna be sticking to have a stigma attached to you. Well, Steven does whenever anybody's open carry ever. No, we don't do that. And I won't allow it and that's the reason why people join the organization in droves. like they've been joining because they know they know what they know that we're going to be treat them in a very human, humanely fashion, humane fashion, and they're gonna have a great time with the organization. So right, that's the secret sauce.

Stephen Gutowski  24:43  
And so what what's your membership level up to now? I think over 40,000 stuff like that, and how long way to go.

Philip Smith  24:55  
But we're getting there as far as chapters about 130. My goal personal goal, I think get about to be about 500 chapters. And as far as membership, I want our membership, or at least around 200,000. That's what I feel, I think we've made a little traction, because I mean, you figure, if there's nine to 12 million African American gun owners right now, to get this, I think a good percentage of that a little percentage, we need to be at least 200,000 to 600,000 members in total, to have I think, a true effect from a from a social standpoint, with our organization.

Stephen Gutowski  25:30  
That makes sense. Um, Now obviously, there's a lot of there's a lot of things to talk about when it comes to racing guns in America, obviously, just and a lot of it has come up even recently, I mean, you guys filed? I guess we could start with you filed a brief, the supreme court against New York's restrictive may issue gun carry law, where you referenced the history of gun control in America and the racist origins of that. You know, I want to talk to you a little bit about that, because certainly, I thought you guys had a very, you know, one of the more fascinating briefs in that case, where, you know, discussed at length, how these sort of laws that use subjective judgments by government officials to deny people their gun rights. How in the history of the United States is littered with examples of that being used to deny specifically black people, their gun rights. And most famously, as your brief points out, Martin Luther King himself was subject to exactly this kind of discrimination after his house was was bond, when he was denied a gun carry permit because of the May issue system in the state that he was living in at the time. It was Alabama, I believe, right. And, and so, obviously, you guys connect that to New York's law. And and I guess, generally, these types of may issue a concealed carry permit laws. Can you talk a little bit more about that? What, you know, what, where you see, sort of the vestiges of racism continuing to hang on in American gun laws today. You know, what, what, what we should learn from that and what we should take away?

Philip Smith  27:31  
Yeah, first of all, I want to thank our brilliant legal is that we have within NACA z today, she's a former senior federal prosecutor for the state of Georgia, incredibly gifted woman who has filed I think, five to six advocates brief for us, to the United States Supreme Court, incredibly gifted, I mean, just just a blessing to the organization, and she came out the blue and we were, we're truly, you know, blessed to have her. Um, our goal, and I think is he does go when she filed that is to really have a overall perspective brought to the court, which says there are institutions in place, which systematically prevent folks like that look like us from getting guns unfairly. Anytime. And this is just my general just because I'm not an attorney, I don't have I don't have half the brains that she has. But anytime you have a system in place where a very small group of people or one person has the right to decline, or approve your gun rights, I think that's wrong, I think you need to have a system where someone is qualified based on a general set of rules and regulations, no felonies, great upstanding citizen, nothing held in their bio that says no red flags or anything like that. They meet that minimum qualification, he or she should be allowed to have a gun. I'm just opposed to having that one sheriff in a county that used the example of Dr. King that says, No, he can't have a gun, regardless of what he's going through on his personal life. I think that in itself is internally problematic. And unfortunately, across this country, we still have those particular systems in place, which are preventing a lot of black folks and folks in general from getting guns that should be allowed to have guns. And I'm just want to don't want to limit to black folks because some good white folks and good Latino and Asian communities are still being declined guns in instances where they shouldn't. So we all need to band together and say, You know what, let's scratch our head and look at this system and see if we can put something down in a very pragmatic fashion that will address the inequities of these small committees that nobody knows about this one person that that's a share for some unknown person pushing back and not allowing certain amount of folks to get guns. I think that's very, very bad and we need to push back as strong as we as we possibly can.

Stephen Gutowski  29:57  
Right. But I do think there is something to be said, you know, we talked a lot in America about the disproportionate effects of various laws on black Americans, and but we very rarely have those same exact conversations about gun laws, even though our federal gun laws have the same effect they have disproportionately affects black people in America. Even today, even even if, you know, we agree that the people promoting gun control today are not doing so out of racist motivations, you still have this effect, that black people are disproportionately affected by most of these gun laws, especially in inner city areas. And so you know, we don't really talk much about that, you know, I think in media

Philip Smith  30:50  
evidence, but it's something that is so Steven, this is something that is we talk about this every day, I give you some some very quick examples. Let's look at the the, the the single black mother in Chicago, Southside of Chicago, that's living in a very rough neighborhood, she needs to have something to be able to protect herself. But it's literally impossible for her to get a gun within the city, she would have to get exception rules, you'd have to know somebody who knows somebody who would have to pay somebody off to get a gun just to get a gun. If you were able to get a gun and have the right to get a gun, they're gonna put so many financial requirements assessed to that gun, you have to take a class, you have to get this type of certificate by you, by the time we end up looking at the total financial, you know, amount, you're in the 1000s 1200 13 $100 being paid out for a $500 gun. Now, what that does to folks that are in very limited incomes, that pushes the gun out of their reach, because you've attached financial requirements to buying that gun. And it's used under the guise of these are just laws and regulations to help protect the public, but you're hurting the public, the black community specifically with these laws that are in place. And I think that's the one thing that I hear, and I get emails from people all over the country. On a daily basis, I can't tell you saying, hey, Phil, I need to get a gun. But I can't afford the permit. Phil, I need to get a gun. But I can't afford to take this class that they're requiring me. It's an additional $400 Hey, Phil, I just can't afford a gun. Like, can you direct me? So they're just really heart wrenching stories and emails that I get on a daily basis? Where are people just literally pushed out by these gun laws that are just really pushing it to the extreme where you have to be a very wealthy person of extreme means to buy a gun. And I think that's wrong. I think the average American don't care for your blue collar, I don't care if you're middle of the road, or our high end, whatever. You we all should have the right to protect our families at night. And I'm just a big proponent of that that mindset.

Stephen Gutowski  33:02  
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I actually just wrote a piece about this. For the members over over at the reload, where I discussed, you know, even if the Supreme Court strikes down, New York's carry law, or all may issue laws and Institute's, you know, a kind of nationwide shall issue, what we've seen up to this point, is that localities that don't want people to have gun carry permits at all, in the first place, when their laws get struck down like in DC and Chicago, they will Institute shall issue regimes, but they'll be like you just described extremely expensive to actually go through I mean, Chicago and DC, are perfect examples of what you were talking about in the context of gun carry permits, because you have to pass a 16 hour course. That's really only taught in those areas. So DC has a specific DC specific course that must be taught, which means that it's more expensive to obtain, because you have to get a special certification from the city to teach it. So it can it's 16 hours long, which I mean, we're all in favor of, of as much training as people can get in terms of carrying a gun. But clearly, when you make the requirements very high, it costs hundreds of dollars to get that class, and they require you to do live fire training before you get the permit. Which again, yes, we would love people to shoot, you know, to do as much training as possible for getting a permit, but DC does not. And Chicago does not have a public range inside of city limits. And so people who don't have cars, which is a lot of people who live in the US, a lot of people, they don't have the means it's extremely it's much harder for them to make it to a gun range to require to fulfill these requirements and then you have all the licensing fees on top of that and fingerprinting requirements and the point is just that they make it extremely difficult. To fulfill their requirements, which ends up having the effect that only people who are well off can actually obtain these licenses are not the poor residents of the city. And disproportionately, that tends to be minorities, black, black Americans, Asian Americans, very generic Americans. That's very true. And so, you know, even if the supreme court does do what I think most people expect it to, in terms of striking down New York's law, doesn't necessarily mean that you're disadvantaged people are going to be able to legally obtain a license to carry anyway. And they're the ones often who live in areas where violence is higher, and who could benefit the most from these kinds of protections. But, you know, it's really, I think it's something that people need to think more about and grapple with, personally, because, yeah, it's far as the gun rights movement goes so big when if the Supreme Court strikes down New York's law, but it certainly doesn't end there. And now, these sorts of permitting requirements, like you mentioned, extend beyond gun carry, to even more, I think base levels, like gun ownership and the New York City, the process to own a handgun there is, like you described is extremely long and difficult and expensive to get through.

Philip Smith  36:23  
So I just think, you know, just just cook, tell them what you say, and then I'll be quiet. I think there's this level of not so much racism, I think it's this arrogance, on the part of a lot of these individuals in the in the selected positions, in the, in the on the civil side, that just really believed that only a certain type of person should have a gun. And if you don't fulfill that, profile, that stereotype when you come in the door, or when you're looking at your information on a piece of paper, you're not going to get a gun. And I think that is This is not fair. I just think it is internally problematic. And we have to start doing something about it. And I will say something about the New York case with the Supreme Court. Even if we win that case, that's not the end of it, like you said, we have to continually keep banging at the door till we get to a point where we're all able to go out and buy a gun. And that's a long fight. There's no silver bullet, you know, decision coming down the down the pipeline that's going to do that. So we're just chipping away at where we want to be eventually. And so it's a long term plan and strategy that we all have to be on board together. And I want to stress together, white folks, black folks, Americans, what have you want to put put us together, but if we don't come together, and I mean, Steven, we don't start coming together to speaking loudly in unison. We've been left with playing with Super soakers on a Sunday, because the other side is very well organized. They're extremely financially solvent, and they're very active, and they don't hesitate to jump on something that they are willing to believe in. Yeah,

Stephen Gutowski  37:58  
I guess in that vein, I was hoping to discuss with you this recent book that was written. It's sort of this is an old idea, of course, but it's it's become back into it's come back into the media's attention in recent weeks, because there was a professor who, who wrote a book about the concept that the Second Amendment was was created, essentially to protect slave militias or its southern slave militias that would put down any uprisings that, you know, this this is the that it's essentially the amendment itself isn't explicitly racist in its origins and purpose. And, you know, obviously, if given what you guys had put in your Supreme Court point brief, I would imagine you don't adhere to this interpretation of the Second Amendment. So I wanted to talk with you a little bit about that. Just what your views of the Second Amendment are and what your thoughts on this narrative that's being brought up again, on the left's are like, well, what's your response to that?

Philip Smith  39:17  
But I think the second amendment is here to protect us, everybody, black, white, whatever, republican democrat. And again, I'll say this, and I'm not familiar with the book that you're talking about, but I'll certainly read it after this this interview. I think that we need to, as I said before, know that the second amendment in its origin was built for Americans to be able to have the right to carry arms. Now, I wouldn't be informed if I said there weren't in the initial structure of the country. Black codes and laws that put African Americans in a in a worse position. They weren't able to have a weapon at all. In fact, in some cases with a black coat, as you already know, if a slave or someone who was African descent was seen with a weapon, and this includes a steak, I mean a knife or a stick or god forbid a gun that could be shot on site with no criminal charges to the person that shot him or her. So do I understand that? Yes, absolutely. But I don't think the second amendment as is currently structured, had a perspective that would be against anybody was for all of us. So that's, that's my perspective.

Stephen Gutowski  40:33  
Yeah, I mean, this. This argument of is it's not necessarily new. But but there was a book recently and it's the ACLU had the author on their, their podcasts, and so a lot of people pay attention because the ACLU itself, which is supposed to be a civil liberties organization, obviously declared that the Second Amendment is racist, even though I mean that the text of the amendment is clearly not racist. I mean, certainly, as you obviously just explained fairly well, there. There clearly were, you know, many horrendous abridgement of rights among black people in America for a very long time, even, you know, after the Civil War through the civil rights era. But that's different than saying that the Second Amendment, you know, and often the Second Amendment protections were deprived, the black people were deprived of this. Yeah, up until fairly recently, you know, obviously, and, as far as you know, American history goes, but that's a different thing than saying that the amendment itself, which does not talk about race at all, and there's no evidence that the even in this book, they don't cite any actual evidence of anyone from the founding era, whether in the Federalist or anti Federalist Papers, talking about how the amendment is meant to protect slave patrols, or whether, you know, yeah, I think I think people evidence, as far as I'm aware, yeah,

Philip Smith  42:07  
know, I think people have their own agenda. And I think the ACLU or whoever, you know, they have an agenda that they're trying to promote. And we just have to be diligent about what we what we know, as gun advocates, people that that support the Second Amendment. And I'm gonna say that and make sure that because I'll get emails either way. I we are a nonpartisan organization. But we will speak about Second Amendment issues, because if we feel it's going against the Second Amendment, we're going to talk about it. And I don't have a problem with that. So to your point, people, if you look at the second myth for what it is, it's a great, it's a great document. It's a great amendment. Has it been used correctly, in some instances for against black people? No, it hasn't been used incorrectly. But it itself is a pretty clear document about what it does and how it serves the country.

Stephen Gutowski  42:57  
Yeah, and I mean, the concern, one of the concerns in Dred Scott the, with with, you know, declaring black people to be persons under the Constitution was that they would be entitled to Second Amendment rights to keep and bear arms. Yeah, yeah. And so it's, it's hard for me to understand this argument, or, you know, give any credence to the idea that the Second Amendment itself was was racial was racist. It's done now.

Philip Smith  43:27  
And now, they've had black codes. I would say that that was definitely racist, you know, some of the Jim Crow laws. Absolutely. But I don't think it would include the Second Amendment.

Stephen Gutowski  43:37  
Yeah, no. And and so one other thing, I was wondering, so you mentioned earlier, about, you know, the things that have drawn people to see your group over the last year and a half. Obviously, we had and this you mentioned, tensions, of course, political tensions, but But certainly, you know, racial tensions in the United States and tensions between police and black Americans have been inflamed, you know, too. Right. Yeah. Has that what effect Have you seen from that on black ownership?

Philip Smith  44:16  
I think that that has driven black gun ownership, to be to be clear, it has half our folks, including me, myself, because I consider myself a black person every day of the week. We have conversations now. And this is where having the organization is a great benefit. Because you can sit down with others going through similar thoughts and similar experiences and talk about the relationship they have with the police or not relationship with the police, and have a good conversation. I think it's necessary. And that's and that's a big benefit for the for nag. And it's so because it allows our community to come together, the way we want to come together and talk about things the way we want to talk about something time it's raw. Sometimes it's tough. And we call it tough conversation days. But you need those conversations, because you can have an honest assessment of what people are going through. Some of my most difficult and productive discussions have been very tough discussions with my own members. Because they've been able to say, hey, Phil, this is how this is what I'm going through. This is my interaction with with law enforcement. And I just want you to know that, and I have a tendency to be, I'm always trying to think hoping that the glass is half full, looking for them, the positive and everything. And sometimes a lot of my folks will say, No, it's not that way. And I have to respect that and understand that, regardless of what I may think, and that's the beauty of the organization, you're allowed to think how you want to think, versus some other organizations where you have to kind of walk alike talk alike dress alike, voter, like, we're not like that, where we'd call them big 10 operation where anybody can come black Republicans, black Democrats, black libertarians, black holes, they don't want to vote at all, and just want to shoot, you can do that, too. So it allows you some latitude, I think that's a good thing for the organization.

Stephen Gutowski  46:11  
And yeah, I guess that that dovetails well into my next question here, which is just what what do you think the value of having a black gun rights group is? You know, obviously, some people would say, you know, why not just, you know, join the NRA or be part of their outreach programs for minorities or something, something along those lines? What, what is it that you think, provides that extra value to having an African American gun Association? In particular, you know, I mean, it sounds like that, that what you just described would be one thing, right, that, you know, people can who had shared experience shared background, as black Americans coming together and being able to talk more freely amongst each other, I guess, just just that sort of knowledge of, you know, having a same base level experience. Yeah, what is it that you think necessitates the group

Philip Smith  47:08  
work? The one thing I heard a lot when I first started back in 2015, because we're six years old. Now. One of the one things I heard constantly this bing, bing, bing was that we're not being heard fellow. We're not being heard. It's like we're not at the table, we don't exist. So one of the first things I did when I started the organization was have a news editorial newsletter that went out every month. And I talked about the issues that they were telling me that they want to talk about, I talked about the Trayvon Martin's, I talked about black on black crime, I talked on black on white crime, I talked on African Americans being shot. domestic terrorism, I talked about all the issues that our community want to talk about. Some of the discussions are very, very tough, but we're better for it at the end of the day, when you have the ability to do that. I think, and this is my perspective, I'll be very selfish about it. Because I'm, you know, I'm very biased because about my organization, you have an avid group of folks that at least can respect where you're coming from, because you're true to your word. And if we were to say, Okay, why don't you join another organization, that organization doesn't speak to your concerns when one of yours is shot. And I'll give an example. Trayvon Martin, or Fernando speci, falando, Castillo, gun owner, lawful gun owner, good guy, loved by family, loved by his employers, all around community guy just just well, like just a good guy. When you fail to respond to that detail, to a group of people that are basically saying, you know, what, we just want to hear something, something that we can gravitate to something we can hold on to, and you got us. You got it. But when you hear nothing, but mice droppings, that lets that makes folks say, you know what, I'm not why should I join you? When you don't hear me. And it's very, very simple. I'll belong to an organization that that represents my beliefs in things that are important to me. And I'm not trying to demonize any organization. Let me say that first and foremost, we don't do that at NACA, and I don't do that. Everybody's entitled to their own perspective. And that's what makes America beautiful. You can be who you want to be have the organization that you want to have. That's fine and dandy. But the reason why our organization has been able to thrive, because other organizations haven't not looked at us and say, You know what, that's a very important segment of society of folks. And they're crying out literally saying, this is something that are these topics are something that we want to talk about. In the end. We want an organization that can that can consistently talk about it, and talk about it without fear. And I think that's something that we've really been able to successfully do within the ag Right. And

Stephen Gutowski  50:01  
so people who want to join Nagar people who want to support what you're doing what you're what you're trying to accomplish, how can they do that? What's the best Avenue?

Philip Smith  50:12  
Sure, just go to our website before you join ISI right? Read and look the information on our website and get a detailed knowledge of what we're about what we believe in. We have a great website, it's very informative. They go over the history of the organization, we go over the history of African Americans that were famous that that came before us. We talked about the Tuskegee Airmen, the Buffalo Soldiers, we talked about the deacons of defense, those are all famous Americans on the 7/61 army unit. All those folks we talked about, we talked about what we believe in, we talk about gun ownership and training and training and more training. So you get a good feel for the organization. You can get all that by going to www.naga.co. And that's a website. And it's very, very well put together I think, please, I think

Stephen Gutowski  51:01  
wonderful. All right. Well, I hope people check that out and see more about what you guys are, what you guys are trying to do and what your events you're putting together here going forward. And I really appreciate you coming on to talk with us to share your perspective. I thought it was fascinating some of the stuff that you had to say. So I really appreciate it. I hope you can come back on again in the future to

Philip Smith  51:22  
Thanksgiving and love to do it. And thanks for allowing me to run my mouth for a little bit. I appreciate it.

Stephen Gutowski  51:27  
Absolutely. It's wonderful. I really enjoyed it. So thank you, and we'll have you on guard. We'll have you on again soon in the future, too. All right, thanks. Have a good day. All right. And that is it for this week. Remember, members. Get this a day early in addition to a bunch of exclusive content, wonderful contents like the freshest, ripest content that you can possibly pay for over at the reload comm you can join you'll get the podcast early you'll get the those exclusive member posts, you'll get that exclusive member newsletter chock full of great insights. If I do I do say so. Myself, but that's all I got for you this week. I gave him poison just for fun. I had one friend. Now there's none. I made the devil Ryan broke so many bones. But none of them. I was alone. I broke so many bones Bo's

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