00:00:03,266 --> 00:00:04,900 最后一个香烟广告 The final cigarette commercial: 00:00:04,900 --> 00:00:07,533 雨天哗啦哗啦场景掏出一根烟 In pouring rain, he takes out a cigarette. 00:00:07,533 --> 00:00:11,266 那个男性主角的妈妈给他点上一根烟 and the male lead’s mother lights it for him. 00:00:11,266 --> 00:00:12,366 没有任何台词 There is no dialogue. 00:00:12,366 --> 00:00:15,000 旁白只有一句さようなら 再见了 The voice-over says only, ‘Sayonara’—goodbye. 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,366 也是对香烟广告说再见的（意思） It also means saying goodbye to cigarette advertising. 00:00:18,366 --> 00:00:20,200 底下评论区有一条说 One comment underneath said that 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,300 我公司的前辈当年就是因为看了这条广告之后 a senior colleague at my company, after seeing this ad back then, 00:00:24,300 --> 00:00:25,066 才开始抽烟 started smoking 00:00:25,066 --> 00:00:26,100 才开始学会抽烟 and took up smoking. 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,066 你是一个社会人 As a member of society, 00:00:28,066 --> 00:00:29,133 它要求着你 you are expected 00:00:29,133 --> 00:00:31,733 对你的行为做着种种的规训 to follow strict rules of behavior. 00:00:32,066 --> 00:00:34,866 反而是借由一个异样的身体 Instead, it is through an unfamiliar body— 00:00:34,866 --> 00:00:39,333 借由一个猫娘 你才能够完成一定程度的抽离 through the body of a catgirl—that you gain some distance from yourself. 00:00:39,333 --> 00:00:42,900 而这种抽离才给了你观看自己的一个契机 And that distance gives you a chance to look at yourself. 00:00:45,166 --> 00:00:46,933 欢迎你收听《非最终形态》 Welcome to Not Final Form Yet. 00:00:46,933 --> 00:00:50,100 这是一档献给变身的人的跨次元人文播客 A cross-dimensional humanities podcast for everyone still transforming. 00:00:50,100 --> 00:00:53,900 在变身的不只是超级赛亚人、魔法少女、假面骑士 Super Saiyans, magical girls, and Kamen Riders aren’t the only ones transforming. 00:00:53,900 --> 00:00:56,666 我们也都还是没有抵达最终形态的人 We haven’t reached our final form yet either! 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:58,566 两部跟抽烟有关的动画 Two anime about smoking 00:00:58,566 --> 00:01:01,400 让香烟这个原本早就开始远离屏幕的东西 have brought cigarettes, long absent onscreen, 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,300 不仅仅重新回到了我们眼前 and brought them back before our eyes. 00:01:03,300 --> 00:01:05,900 甚至似乎成为了一种二次元时尚单品 They even made them otaku fashion items. 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,900 那为什么我们在一个崇尚禁烟的年代 So why, in an era that champions smoking bans, 00:01:08,900 --> 00:01:10,433 却在屏幕前看见了烟 do we see smoking onscreen? 00:01:10,433 --> 00:01:13,533 可能它背后的问题并不只是香烟这么简单 Perhaps the issue behind this is about more than cigarettes. 00:01:14,100 --> 00:01:15,866 我是主播 后人类大白 I’m your host, Posthuman Dabai, 00:01:15,866 --> 00:01:17,833 一个不抽烟的动画研究者 a nonsmoking animation researcher. 00:01:17,833 --> 00:01:21,133 这一期我会和特摄研究者、烟民风见97郎 I’ll join tokusatsu scholar and smoker Kazami 97 00:01:21,133 --> 00:01:24,633 一起聊一聊是什么让抽烟动画迎来了这波热潮 to discuss what has driven this wave of smoking anime, 00:01:24,633 --> 00:01:26,400 以及在这一波热潮背后 and, behind this wave, 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,333 人们想通过一支烟获得的 what people seek in a cigarette— 00:01:28,333 --> 00:01:30,666 那种复杂又难以说出口的情感 complex feelings that defy words. 00:01:34,766 --> 00:01:36,733 本期我们要聊的话题是这个 This is today’s topic. 00:01:37,700 --> 00:01:39,400 哈哈哈seven stars Ha ha—Seven Stars. 00:01:40,666 --> 00:01:41,733 到时候打个码 We’ll blur it. 00:01:41,733 --> 00:01:44,933 这个seven stars基本上是我的口粮 Seven Stars is basically my regular brand, 00:01:44,933 --> 00:01:47,700 突然现在就成为了一个时尚二次元单品了 and suddenly became otaku fashion. 00:01:47,966 --> 00:01:50,633 哎呀 稍微给大家解释一下吧 All right, let’s give everyone a quick explanation 00:01:50,633 --> 00:01:52,700 稍微做一个前期的铺垫 and lay a little groundwork first— 00:01:52,700 --> 00:01:56,533 就是为什么会刚才拿着这么一个东西出现 why I just appeared holding this thing. 00:01:56,533 --> 00:02:02,533 最近这几个月很火的 或者说讨论度很高的两个作品 Two works have been very popular, or at least widely discussed, in recent months. 00:02:02,533 --> 00:02:05,700 一个是《在超市后门吸烟的两人》 One is Smoking Behind the Supermarket with You. 00:02:06,066 --> 00:02:07,366 一个是《尼古喵喵》 The other is Yani Neko. 00:02:07,666 --> 00:02:11,133 这两个作品都有一个共同点 就是关于吸烟这件事 They share one thing: both are about smoking. 00:02:11,133 --> 00:02:12,866 以前你看到的基本上都是 Before, you mostly saw 00:02:12,866 --> 00:02:15,233 可能作品里有那么几个抽烟的角色 a few characters who smoked. 00:02:15,233 --> 00:02:16,166 这是一个层面 That was one side. 00:02:16,166 --> 00:02:18,900 当它突然被摆到台面作为一个主题来讲 But making smoking the theme— 00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:22,900 我觉得是对我来说也是头一回看到这么一个东西 for me, this was the first time I had seen anything like it. 00:02:22,900 --> 00:02:26,000 总之我觉得这个现象还是挺有意思的 In any case, I find the phenomenon quite interesting. 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,600 就是我们现在突然在流媒体上见到了 We are suddenly seeing on streaming platforms 00:02:29,933 --> 00:02:32,200 明显的以抽烟为主题的动画 anime explicitly centered on smoking. 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,666 我们都知道抽烟是一个对健康不利的事情 We all know smoking is harmful to health. 00:02:36,666 --> 00:02:42,666 那按照目前这些年 大家对主流的文化作品的表现的理解来讲 And given how mainstream culture has been understood in recent years, 00:02:42,666 --> 00:02:45,300 这个东西应该是尽可能回避的 it should be avoided when possible. 00:02:45,500 --> 00:02:50,533 那刚才97也说其实特别是《在超市后门吸烟的两人》这个番 As 97 just said, Smoking Behind the Supermarket with You in particular 00:02:51,100 --> 00:02:54,966 一定程度上甚至带领了一股新的抽烟热 has, to some extent, even sparked a new smoking craze. 00:02:54,966 --> 00:02:58,800 这个也是一个让人觉得有一点担忧的现象 That is a somewhat worrying phenomenon. 00:02:58,800 --> 00:02:59,933 但是本期节目 But in this episode, 00:02:59,933 --> 00:03:03,733 其实我觉得最首先应该讨论的一个问题还是说 I think the first question we should discuss is still this: 00:03:04,166 --> 00:03:06,933 为什么我们会看到这样的动画 why are we seeing anime like these? 00:03:06,933 --> 00:03:09,533 这样的动画它受众是什么样的人 What kind of people are their audiences? 00:03:10,366 --> 00:03:14,700 那就首先从这两个作品的一些背景开始聊 Let’s begin with some background on the two works. 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:19,066 就是先说《在超市后门吸烟的两人》的这个片 First, Smoking Behind the Supermarket with You. 00:03:19,466 --> 00:03:23,066 它的作者叫地主 这个名字也挺有意思的 Its creator goes by Jinushi—‘landlord’—which is an interesting name too. 00:03:23,066 --> 00:03:28,500 应该是几年前 四五年前开始在Twitter上 I believe it began four or five years ago on Twitter, 00:03:28,500 --> 00:03:33,766 就现在的x上面 开始连载的一个自己画着玩的东西 now X, as something the creator drew for fun and serialized online. 00:03:33,766 --> 00:03:35,266 后面才开始 Only later 00:03:35,266 --> 00:03:39,066 因为这个有一些不错的反响开始在商业志上开始连载 did its positive reception lead to serialization in a commercial magazine. 00:03:39,533 --> 00:03:42,600 应该是在2022年的时候获得了 I believe that in 2022 it won 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,733 下一部人气漫画大赏Web漫画部门的第一位 first place in the web-manga category of the Next Manga Awards. 00:03:46,733 --> 00:03:50,600 《这本漫画真厉害！2023》男生篇第7位 It ranked seventh in the male-readers category of Kono Manga ga Sugoi! 2023, 00:03:50,866 --> 00:03:53,133 漫画大赏2023第八位 and eighth in the 2023 Manga Taisho, 00:03:53,133 --> 00:03:56,000 这样的比较优异的成绩吧 which are quite impressive results. 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,100 根据我看到的数据是说 According to the figures I saw, 00:03:58,100 --> 00:04:00,033 它在这个截止今年的1月 as of January this year, 00:04:00,033 --> 00:04:04,666 应该是发行量突破了300万部的漫画销量 the manga had surpassed three million copies in circulation. 00:04:05,066 --> 00:04:09,366 可以说是一个近期比较有人气的作品了 So it is fair to call it a fairly popular recent work. 00:04:09,366 --> 00:04:11,833 我觉得挺有意思的点是 What I find interesting is that 00:04:11,833 --> 00:04:17,300 在国内最开始网上就反正我看到的一些声音会说 some of the earliest comments I saw online in China said 00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:20,166 它在日本是女性向的漫画 that it was a manga for women in Japan. 00:04:20,566 --> 00:04:24,700 但是就像我刚才这个念的它获奖的名单 But looking at the awards I just listed, 00:04:24,700 --> 00:04:26,666 可以其实可以看出来 you can actually see 00:04:26,666 --> 00:04:34,266 其实他在日本这边的定位还是偏男性读者的东西 that in Japan it is positioned more toward male readers. 00:04:34,666 --> 00:04:38,400 就是我觉着现在国内对于这部动画的理解 I think the current understanding of this anime in China 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,000 可能有一点就是所谓的小偏差 may be slightly off. 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,733 刚才大白所讲述的也是有一种就是所谓的偏差存在 What Dabai just said also contains that kind of discrepancy. 00:04:45,733 --> 00:04:50,400 这部动画或者说原作的漫画我看了一眼 I took a look at the anime—or rather, the original manga. 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:55,700 它原本是连载在这个日本的所谓一个青年的漫画杂志上 It was originally serialized in what Japan calls a seinen manga magazine. 00:04:55,700 --> 00:04:56,133 嗯嗯 Mm-hmm. 00:04:56,133 --> 00:05:00,333 它的受众群体本身就是青年男性向 Its core audience is young men. 00:05:00,333 --> 00:05:05,033 因为女性很少会去买这种所谓的青年漫画去看 Women rarely buy and read so-called seinen manga, 00:05:05,033 --> 00:05:08,833 在历来的日本的所谓这种认知里头 at least according to the traditional understanding in Japan. 00:05:08,833 --> 00:05:12,466 女性去买这种漫画 就是一种很粗俗的事情 For a woman to buy that kind of manga was seen as rather vulgar. 00:05:12,466 --> 00:05:14,733 男性（去买就很正常）本身就是一个男性向的东西 For men, it was normal and made for them. 00:05:15,133 --> 00:05:17,300 它的主角两个角色呢 As for its two protagonists, 00:05:17,300 --> 00:05:18,700 一个是山田小姐 one is Miss Yamada. 00:05:18,700 --> 00:05:23,100 原著的设定就是20多岁在超市打工养活自己度日 In the original, she is a supermarket worker in her twenties. 00:05:23,100 --> 00:05:28,400 是一个所谓的没有人生太大目标的打工族的这样的形象 She is portrayed as a part-timer without any grand goals in life. 00:05:28,766 --> 00:05:32,133 佐佐木 就是这个男性 Sasaki, the male character, 00:05:32,133 --> 00:05:36,666 他是一个40多岁在日语叫 ヒラ社員 is in his forties and what Japanese calls a hira-shain— 00:05:36,900 --> 00:05:38,133 冴えないサラリーマン a drab salaryman, 00:05:38,533 --> 00:05:44,133 就是普通社员 混不出头的上班族的这样一个形象 an ordinary employee going nowhere in his career. 00:05:44,133 --> 00:05:46,466 那这个故事很有意思 What makes the story interesting 00:05:46,466 --> 00:05:50,500 就是把两个在大众认知或者说普通人认知里 is that it brings together two groups that, in the public mind, 00:05:50,500 --> 00:05:52,766 没有太大关系的两个群体 have very little to do with each other— 00:05:52,766 --> 00:05:54,600 就是没有什么交集的群体 groups that rarely cross paths. 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,033 两个人有一种抱团取暖的感觉 The two find a sense of warmth and solidarity in each other. 00:06:20,033 --> 00:06:22,833 这是一个历来很新的一种碰撞 It is a fresh kind of encounter, 00:06:22,833 --> 00:06:25,766 两种群体的碰撞的一个创作思路 a story built on two groups colliding. 00:06:25,766 --> 00:06:28,300 这是一个很有意思的事情 That is very interesting. 00:06:28,333 --> 00:06:32,400 对 这两个原本不相干的群体被放到了一起 Right—these two unrelated groups are placed together, 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,666 这确实是一个挺有意思的东西 and that really is an interesting setup. 00:06:35,666 --> 00:06:40,066 但是它的一个相当于连接两个群体的媒介是烟 But the medium connecting the two groups is smoking. 00:06:40,700 --> 00:06:46,500 这个东西可能本身是一定程度上争议的一个来源的核心 That may itself be the core source of the controversy. 00:06:58,800 --> 00:06:59,700 就 Well, 00:06:59,933 --> 00:07:04,433 烟在这部片子里只不过是连接两个人的一种所谓的媒介 in this story, cigarettes are merely a medium connecting two people. 00:07:04,433 --> 00:07:06,533 而并不是必要的东西 They are not essential. 00:07:06,533 --> 00:07:11,066 这个东西可以换成 两个人都喜欢偶像 You could replace them with both people liking idols, 00:07:11,066 --> 00:07:13,500 两个人都是追星族 both being devoted fans, 00:07:13,500 --> 00:07:17,700 或者说改成两个人都喜欢吃美食 or both enjoying good food. 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:19,700 两个人因此产生了交集 That brings them together. 00:07:19,966 --> 00:07:23,166 烟在这部片子里其实并不是一个所谓的必要的道具 Cigarettes are not really an indispensable prop in this story. 00:07:23,166 --> 00:07:24,800 只是连接两个人一种媒介 Just a link between them. 00:07:25,066 --> 00:07:30,533 但是连接的媒介、这个方式在日本的尤其是21世纪以来 Yet especially in Japan since the start of the twenty-first century, using this medium 00:07:30,533 --> 00:07:33,600 在这些影像作品中是一个很少见 has been very rare in screen works. 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:39,300 或者说尤其在这个女主角山田小姐身上 有一种所谓的反差萌 And with the heroine, Miss Yamada, it creates a particular kind of gap appeal. 00:07:39,900 --> 00:07:45,133 一个20多岁的年轻小姑娘怎么会啊对这个抽烟这件事这么着迷 Why would a young woman in her twenties be so fascinated by smoking? 00:07:45,133 --> 00:07:50,733 本身就是很反现在所谓的业界包括社会的常识的一个 That itself runs against the current common sense of both the industry and society. 00:07:51,700 --> 00:07:55,900 在日语里叫什么叫ギャップ萌 反差萌的这样一个点存在 In Japanese, this is called ‘gap moe’—the appeal of contrast. 00:07:56,300 --> 00:08:01,900 因为一个现实情况就是2003年 One piece of real-world context is the year 2003. 00:08:02,900 --> 00:08:07,366 2003年就是日本颁布了《健康增进法案》 In 2003, Japan enacted the Health Promotion Act. 00:08:07,366 --> 00:08:10,733 自从那个之后就是包括所有的电视节目啊 Since then, all kinds of television programs 00:08:11,166 --> 00:08:15,266 一些广告对于香烟这件事情其实都是比较忌讳 and advertisements have been rather wary of depicting cigarettes. 00:08:15,266 --> 00:08:19,566 或者说不太愿意像原来那样很大面积啊 Or rather, they have been reluctant to show them as extensively 00:08:19,566 --> 00:08:21,833 很一种刻意的去描写它 or as deliberately as before. 00:08:21,833 --> 00:08:24,133 就是有一种特意的回避 They deliberately avoid them. 00:08:24,133 --> 00:08:27,600 是这样的整体的业界大环境的背景存在的 That is the broader industry environment behind all this. 00:08:28,366 --> 00:08:31,800 烟这个东西你刚才说它不是很重要 You just said cigarettes are not very important, 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,366 但是它其实还是重要 but they actually are important, 00:08:34,366 --> 00:08:39,033 就是因为别的媒介其实都不会引起这么多的争议 because no other medium would cause this much controversy. 00:08:39,033 --> 00:08:41,500 比如说两个人一起吃拉面 For example, the two could eat ramen together, 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:44,900 或者两个人一起啊做什么别的事情追偶像 do something else together, or follow the same idols. 00:08:45,333 --> 00:08:51,200 它和两个人一起抽烟还是明显的不一样的 That is clearly different from the two smoking together. 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,966 那刚才你其实也提到就《健康增进法案》 You also just mentioned the Health Promotion Act. 00:08:53,966 --> 00:08:56,000 很长一段时间我们都认为 For a long time, we believed 00:08:56,266 --> 00:09:01,500 抽烟这个事情应该是被媒体所回避的 that the media should avoid depicting smoking. 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:04,766 但是现在它突然成为了一个主题 But now it has suddenly become a theme. 00:09:05,366 --> 00:09:09,266 啊我就觉得 从一个不抽烟的人的来讲 From the perspective of someone who does not smoke, 00:09:09,266 --> 00:09:12,966 你可能很明显的是有一定的担忧的 you would naturally have certain concerns— 00:09:12,966 --> 00:09:17,766 就是觉得他会不会带来更不好的一个社会影响 whether it might have a negative social impact. 00:09:18,166 --> 00:09:21,166 因为说白了你相当于 Because, to put it bluntly, you are effectively 00:09:21,500 --> 00:09:24,266 把抽烟合理化成了（美化） normalizing—even glamorizing—smoking 00:09:24,266 --> 00:09:26,933 日常消解压力的一个方式 as an everyday way to relieve stress. 00:09:26,933 --> 00:09:30,266 它当然本来也是日常消解压力的一个方式 Of course, it already is a way people relieve stress, 00:09:30,266 --> 00:09:32,933 但是说它提醒了你 你有这个选择 but the show reminds you that this option exists, 00:09:32,933 --> 00:09:35,100 这个选择看上去还不错 and makes it look appealing. 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:38,633 就是作为一个抽烟的人 吸烟者 As a smoker myself, 00:09:38,633 --> 00:09:42,066 绝对不赞同大家去接触这个东西的 I absolutely do not encourage anyone to try it. 00:09:42,066 --> 00:09:44,966 我是已经自暴自弃了 I have already given up on myself. 00:09:46,466 --> 00:09:50,900 就是不要因为任何这个诱惑去接触东西 好吧 Do not let any temptation make you try it, okay? 00:09:50,900 --> 00:09:53,133 我是作为吸烟者 我绝对不 As a smoker, I absolutely would not— 00:09:53,133 --> 00:09:58,333 绝对不会去赞同任何没有经验的人去开始尝试 I would never encourage anyone with no experience to start. 00:09:58,333 --> 00:10:00,733 好吧 观众老爷们记住这一点 All right, dear viewers, remember that. 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,266 那我就接着说两句 Let me add something. 00:10:08,533 --> 00:10:10,100 就是我觉得说到这就嗯 At this point, I think... 00:10:11,266 --> 00:10:16,300 需要讨论到另外一个刚才我们也提到的关于抽烟的作品 we need to discuss the other smoking-related work we mentioned earlier: 00:10:16,300 --> 00:10:18,666 就是《尼古喵喵》《ヤニねこ》 Yani Neko. 00:10:19,066 --> 00:10:23,133 它也是应该是这个月7月份刚刚动画化的 It was also adapted into an anime just this July, I believe. 00:10:23,133 --> 00:10:28,633 它的一个风格就和《在超市后门吸烟的两人》很不一样 Its style is very different from Smoking Behind the Supermarket with You. 00:10:28,633 --> 00:10:34,566 因为他其实是我觉得把烟作为一个其实挺负面的东西在描绘 I think it actually portrays cigarettes as something quite negative. 00:10:34,566 --> 00:10:37,333 虽然他有大量的描绘但是 Although it depicts smoking extensively, 00:10:37,733 --> 00:10:45,466 他给你展现了主角的人生 是如何被吸烟造成了负面的影响 it shows how smoking has negatively affected the protagonist’s life. 00:10:45,466 --> 00:10:51,333 比如说生活处在一个廉价出租房里面到处都是垃圾 She lives in a cheap rental room with trash everywhere, 00:10:51,333 --> 00:10:54,733 水池子里都是这个脏盘子 a sink full of dirty dishes, 00:10:54,733 --> 00:10:56,866 到处都是烟头 and cigarette butts all over the place. 00:10:57,466 --> 00:10:59,400 每天除了抽烟之外这个 Every day, apart from smoking, 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,966 就是打点零工这样的生活 she just works odd jobs. 00:11:01,966 --> 00:11:05,100 打零工赚了钱就立刻又去买烟 As soon as she earns money, she spends it on cigarettes. 00:11:05,666 --> 00:11:10,566 她和抽烟这样的非常不健康的循环关系 She is trapped in a deeply unhealthy cycle with smoking. 00:11:10,566 --> 00:11:14,533 当然也有一些人际交往啦等等羁绊之类的 Of course, there are relationships and emotional bonds too, 00:11:14,533 --> 00:11:19,400 但是总体上来讲我觉得 至少它展现出了 but overall, I think it at least shows 00:11:19,700 --> 00:11:23,700 就是抽烟原本更加负面的一个东西 the more inherently negative side of smoking, 00:11:23,700 --> 00:11:26,533 而不是单纯的作为一个说 哦 rather than presenting it simply as, ‘Oh, 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,133 这个是我可以放松的一个渠道 this is a way for me to relax.’ 00:11:30,066 --> 00:11:35,600 就是整体他把负面的一个形象给展示出来 Overall, it presents smoking in a negative light. 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,933 《尼古喵喵》这个片子 As for Yani Neko, 00:11:37,933 --> 00:11:41,633 它的角色 尤其是这个人物本身的内核 its character—especially who she is at heart— 00:11:41,633 --> 00:11:46,600 实际上并不是一个外表看起来20多岁的年轻猫娘 is not actually a young catgirl in her twenties, as she appears. 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,666 内核她实际上是一个四五十岁的大叔 Inside, she is a middle-aged man. 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:55,100 只是形象现在是这样嗯描述或者这样设定的 She is simply portrayed and designed in this form, 00:11:55,100 --> 00:11:58,566 造成的给观众的一种所谓的反差感在里边 which creates a sense of contrast for the audience. 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:05,333 这个可能是我觉得番能吸引到人的一种有意思的点吧嗯 I think that contrast is one interesting part of the show’s appeal. 00:12:05,333 --> 00:12:10,633 对包括这个《在超市后门吸烟的两人》和《尼古喵喵》吧 Right. Both Smoking Behind the Supermarket with You and Yani Neko 00:12:10,633 --> 00:12:14,133 这两个片子都是所谓的一种深夜动画 are what you would call late-night anime. 00:12:14,133 --> 00:12:18,933 嗯对 都是过了夜里12点专门给那个点没睡觉的大人 Yes, both air after midnight for adults who are still awake— 00:12:19,733 --> 00:12:22,900 那个稍微年龄大一点的观众朋友去看的 for a slightly older audience. 00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:25,700 它是本身就是在这个动画 Within the anime 00:12:25,700 --> 00:12:28,100 业界里是一个很小众的东西 industry, this is very niche. 00:12:28,100 --> 00:12:30,300 但是因为这个海外观众 But overseas audiences 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:34,933 反而喜欢日本的这种所谓有日本特色的小众的东西 often prefer niche works with a distinctively Japanese character. 00:12:34,933 --> 00:12:42,866 所以就这么说在海外它获得的受众实际上比日本国内更大嗯 So in a sense, they attract a larger audience overseas than in Japan. 00:12:43,266 --> 00:12:46,533 其实在日本主流的动画更多的像是 Mainstream anime in Japan is more like 00:12:46,533 --> 00:12:49,800 所谓的朝日电视台、富士电视台 the shows on TV Asahi and Fuji TV— 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,466 现在还在黄金档每周硬挺的《名侦探柯南》啊 Detective Conan, still holding out in prime time every week, 00:12:53,866 --> 00:12:54,966 《蜡笔小新》啊 Crayon Shin-chan, 00:12:55,300 --> 00:12:56,200 《哆啦A梦》啊 （硬挺 笑） Doraemon (‘holding out’? Lol) 00:12:57,066 --> 00:13:00,000 对硬挺这个词用的其实挺那什么的 Right, ‘holding out’ is a rather loaded phrase, 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,366 但就是它一个很坚挺的存在几十年了 but they really have remained firmly in place for decades. 00:13:04,366 --> 00:13:09,500 它都在那个时间档那个时间段播放这种所谓的儿童动画 They are children’s anime airing in those regular time slots. 00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:14,500 实际上还是所谓的动画这个大的领域的一种主流 They are still the mainstream within the wider field of animation. 00:13:14,500 --> 00:13:17,566 嗯这种主流实际上在上个世纪 And in the last century, that mainstream 00:13:17,566 --> 00:13:22,466 多多少少还是会对抽烟这个东西是有一定的描写的 did depict smoking to some extent. 00:13:22,466 --> 00:13:25,366 像是那个《海螺小姐》里的爸爸嗯 For example, the father in Sazae-san 00:13:25,366 --> 00:13:28,766 也是一直是一个喜欢抽烟的角色 经常拿着烟抽烟吧 has always been a smoker and is often shown with a cigarette. 00:13:28,766 --> 00:13:30,166 《樱桃小丸子》的爸爸也抽烟 Maruko’s father smokes too. 00:13:30,466 --> 00:13:34,100 再老一点的《哆啦A梦》大雄的爸爸也抽烟 In older Doraemon episodes, Nobita’s father also smoked. 00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:39,100 毛利小五郎 啊对对对 毛利小五郎也是一个烟鬼的角色 Kogoro Mori—yes, Kogoro Mori is a heavy smoker too. 00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:42,266 但实际上这些角色在渐渐的这些年 But in recent years, these characters have gradually changed, 00:13:42,266 --> 00:13:47,133 尤其是刚才我们提到过的2003年提出那个《健康增进法案》之后 especially after the 2003 Health Promotion Act we mentioned. 00:13:47,133 --> 00:13:54,400 这些角色也渐渐的开始就是不碰烟 描写的比例变得很少了嗯 They gradually stopped touching cigarettes, and smoking appeared far less often. 00:13:54,400 --> 00:14:00,166 也就是说日本主流的业界对于香烟的一种描写的克制 In other words, Japan’s mainstream industry has shown restraint in depicting smoking, 00:14:00,733 --> 00:14:05,533 尤其是以儿童为主要核心为观众的这些动画里 especially in anime whose core audience is children. 00:14:05,533 --> 00:14:07,466 尽量不要让小孩子 They try not to let children 00:14:07,466 --> 00:14:12,466 看到这些角色抽烟受到他们的影响嗯 see these characters smoke and be influenced by them. 00:14:12,933 --> 00:14:17,200 就说主流动画它的思考方式和这些深夜动画 So the thinking behind mainstream anime and late-night anime 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:22,500 本质上还是有一个很明显的变化的差距和区别的 differs quite clearly and fundamentally. 00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:26,400 对是我觉得你刚才说的其实是挺对的 Right. I think what you just said is quite accurate. 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,433 就是主流动画和深夜动画在日本 In Japan, mainstream and late-night anime 00:14:29,433 --> 00:14:33,166 特别是早些年流媒体不是很发达的时候 were especially distinct when streaming was less developed. 00:14:33,166 --> 00:14:35,733 是挺界限分明的一个东西 There was a very clear boundary between them. 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,366 但是它有意思的点又在于 像你刚才说的 But what is interesting, as you just said, 00:14:39,366 --> 00:14:42,200 比如说以我们这个中国视角来看的话 is that from our Chinese perspective— 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:43,733 从海外的角度来看 from an overseas perspective— 00:14:43,733 --> 00:14:48,400 我们最早接触到日本的很多东西虽然是官方引进的那些 many of our earliest encounters with Japanese works were official imports, 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:50,166 八九十年代的动画 ’80s and ’90s anime. 00:14:50,166 --> 00:14:51,966 但是从2000年以后 But after 2000, 00:14:52,266 --> 00:14:54,066 反而是就是流媒体 instead, streaming. 00:14:54,066 --> 00:14:58,533 我们早早的就进入了一个通过流媒体看盗版动画的 We entered quite early into a mode of watching pirated anime online 00:14:58,533 --> 00:15:01,033 这样的消费模式里面 and consuming it that way. 00:15:01,033 --> 00:15:04,900 当然后面这个10年代开始又有正版动画进来 Of course, licensed anime arrived later, in the 2010s, 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:07,533 但是仍然是以流媒体为主的 but streaming still remained the main channel. 00:15:07,900 --> 00:15:11,300 日本其实这两年也开始就是这些年吧 Over the last several years, Japan too 00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:13,966 也开始流媒体变得越来越重要 has seen streaming become increasingly important 00:15:13,966 --> 00:15:16,700 成为一个消费的主流渠道 and turn into a mainstream channel for viewing. 00:15:16,700 --> 00:15:19,300 那它的重要意涵就在于说 The key significance is that 00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:24,266 流媒体颠覆了你电视台的这样的放送时刻表 streaming overturns the broadcasting schedule set by television stations 00:15:24,266 --> 00:15:26,900 它规定的天然带来的壁垒 and the natural barriers that schedule creates. 00:15:27,266 --> 00:15:30,600 你不管是什么时间段放送的动画 No matter what time slot an anime originally airs in, 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,366 我都可以在我想看的时间去点播 I can watch it on demand whenever I want. 00:15:33,966 --> 00:15:37,133 或者说我只要能够在平台上搜到 As long as I can find it on the platform, 00:15:37,133 --> 00:15:38,266 我就可以看 I can watch it. 00:15:38,266 --> 00:15:41,900 那他就从一个说原本没有（自由度） 白了 So the situation changes from one where freedom was limited— 00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:45,166 原本理论上如果你是一个熬夜的孩子 although, in theory, a child staying up late 00:15:45,166 --> 00:15:48,066 你也可以看到那个动画对吗 could still see that anime, right? 00:15:48,066 --> 00:15:52,333 但是当然它会默认 这个社会的规定默认你说 But social conventions assume that 00:15:52,333 --> 00:15:57,300 在一个打引号「正常」的情况下你不太可能看到那个东西 under ‘normal’ circumstances, you would be unlikely to see it. 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,000 但是现在放到了流媒体上啊 Now that it is on streaming platforms, 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,000 我们是不是真的有一个强硬的分级 do we really have strict age ratings 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,433 能够确保多少年龄段的孩子不看到相关的动画呢 that can keep children of particular ages from seeing such anime? 00:16:07,433 --> 00:16:13,666 其实这个点 说白了没有哪个系统平台现在做得特别好 我觉得 Frankly, I do not think any platform handles this especially well. 00:16:13,666 --> 00:16:20,166 不符合年龄段的孩子去越轨看到超龄的东西 Children crossing the line to view material above their age level 00:16:20,166 --> 00:16:24,166 是一个其实说白了是常态那 is, frankly, quite normal. 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,600 特别是流媒体流媒体是加剧了这个现象的 Streaming intensified this. 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,766 因为刚才我们谈的还在一个正版的范畴里 And so far we have only been discussing licensed content. 00:16:31,766 --> 00:16:33,666 那你就更不要提盗版了 Never mind piracy. 00:16:33,666 --> 00:16:35,966 盗版是不可能对你做出任何限制的 Pirate sites impose no limits. 00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:41,600 但是盗版的这个环境反而是更符合我们中国受众的 Yet that environment actually matches Chinese audiences more closely— 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,833 或者至少说成长起来的一个认知和消费习惯 or at least the habits of perception and consumption we grew up with. 00:16:46,833 --> 00:16:51,400 嗯 尤其是现在日本最大的这个网上的流媒体 Especially now, Japan’s largest online streaming 00:16:51,533 --> 00:16:54,766 播放的一个平台叫TVer platform is called TVer. 00:16:54,766 --> 00:16:57,700 这是几大电视台它的那个热门节目 Popular programs from the major television networks 00:16:57,700 --> 00:17:00,533 都是在电视上播完之后马上会上tver go onto TVer immediately after airing on television. 00:17:00,533 --> 00:17:04,566 所有观众都可以在它那个限定播放期间内 During the limited viewing window, all viewers 00:17:04,566 --> 00:17:07,800 同时随时可以看这个节目的这么一个平台 can watch those programs whenever they like. 00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:14,100 这个平台它现在认证年龄的方式还处于一个极其原始的阶段 The platform’s age-verification method is still extremely primitive. 00:17:14,100 --> 00:17:16,066 就是你进入这个平台 When you enter the platform, 00:17:16,066 --> 00:17:19,333 你自己输入年龄 它没有一个强行的认证 you enter your age; it never verifies it. 00:17:19,333 --> 00:17:21,366 你也不需要登录任何东西 You do not even need to log in. 00:17:21,866 --> 00:17:24,566 你甚至说自己是1910年出生的 You can claim you were born in 1910, 00:17:24,566 --> 00:17:26,800 他也不管你 也让你直接进去 and it will still let you straight in. 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,466 所以实际上现在这个平台 他的管控的方式 So the platform’s current system of control 00:17:31,100 --> 00:17:33,733 还处于一个极其原始的阶段 is still at an extremely primitive stage. 00:17:33,733 --> 00:17:38,200 它并没有就是国内实名认证的嗯一种模式存在 It has nothing like China’s real-name verification system. 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,633 所以说现在小朋友也可以随时看到 That means children can readily see 00:17:41,633 --> 00:17:45,100 所谓的他们不应该看到的大人内容 adult content they supposedly should not see. 00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:47,066 这是一个很现实的问题 That is a very real problem. 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:53,566 对而且这个TVer它的声量现在也渐渐的超过了原本的 Right, and TVer’s influence is gradually overtaking the old concept 00:17:53,566 --> 00:17:57,300 电视的所谓的收视率啊这样的概念 of television ratings. 00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:59,666 像是原来这个日本电视节目 Japanese television programs used to 00:17:59,666 --> 00:18:04,233 就是很在意我们这一期节目有多少多少收视率 care greatly about the ratings each episode received. 00:18:04,233 --> 00:18:08,800 但是现在已经慢慢演变成了他们网上发新闻也好 Now, whether in online press releases 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,766 电视台内部自己的数据也好 or the networks’ own internal figures, 00:18:11,766 --> 00:18:16,733 已经渐渐演变成了我们这期节目TVer的再生率是多少 the focus is increasingly on an episode’s play count on TVer— 00:18:16,733 --> 00:18:19,933 超过了一千万也好 超过几千万也好 whether it has passed ten million or even tens of millions. 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:25,200 它的生态位已经渐渐代替了原本电视该有的收视率 Its role is gradually replacing the ratings television once had, 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,466 这样的纯电视平台的存在 and the position of television-only platforms. 00:18:29,133 --> 00:18:30,366 嗯 是的是的 Mm-hmm, exactly. 00:18:30,366 --> 00:18:35,200 我们刚才说的东西是说儿童动画或者说儿童向的内容 We were just talking about children’s anime and children’s content. 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,766 其实一定程度上它并没有所谓的消亡 To some extent, they have not disappeared 00:18:38,766 --> 00:18:40,766 或者是说变得更少了 or become less common. 00:18:40,766 --> 00:18:46,866 只不过可能我们的一个关注点并没有放在可能更儿童向的东西上面 Perhaps our attention simply is not focused on more child-oriented works. 00:18:46,866 --> 00:18:53,066 所以如果说这些抽烟的内容多了带来了儿童内容的一个消亡 So it is too early to say that more smoking content 00:18:53,066 --> 00:18:55,466 这个我觉得还为时过早 has caused children’s content to disappear. 00:18:55,733 --> 00:18:59,133 因为毕竟说白了 你如果从体量上来看的话 After all, if you compare their scale, 00:18:59,133 --> 00:19:01,700 一个像《面包超人》啊 《名侦探柯南》啊 a franchise like Anpanman or Detective Conan— 00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:03,700 我们上次也谈到《龙珠》啊等等 and Dragon Ball, as we discussed. 00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:06,866 它都是每年千亿级别的这样的这营收额 earns hundreds of billions of yen every year. 00:19:06,866 --> 00:19:10,900 它和《在超市后门吸烟的两人》这根本不在一个数量级上 Far larger than Smoking Behind the Supermarket with You. 00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:12,366 这个不可同日而语 They cannot compare. 00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:14,133 但是对 But yes, 00:19:14,133 --> 00:19:17,966 就像刚才我们在讲的这样的流媒体带来的问题 there are the problems caused by streaming that we just discussed, 00:19:17,966 --> 00:19:19,966 和这个分级边界的一个模糊 and blurred age boundaries. 00:19:20,333 --> 00:19:25,733 它也在说儿童内容的一个危机并也不是完全不存在的 So a crisis in children’s content is not entirely nonexistent either. 00:19:25,733 --> 00:19:29,433 就是他还是潜在的会受到一些冲击的 It may still face some impact. 00:19:29,433 --> 00:19:32,933 特别是我觉得一个很微妙的时间点 I think adolescence is an especially delicate point in time, 00:19:32,933 --> 00:19:37,100 这个也和我们节目的名字其实很有关联 and this is closely connected to the name of our show: 00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:39,000 《非最终形态》 Not Final Form Yet. 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,566 当你处在一个青春期的时候 When you are going through adolescence, 00:19:41,566 --> 00:19:44,800 当儿童开始转变为少年少女的时候 when a child is becoming a teenage boy or girl 00:19:45,066 --> 00:19:47,333 啊还没有到成年的时候 but has not yet reached adulthood, 00:19:47,333 --> 00:19:52,333 这样的转变频发的时期 你会接触到很多可能 during that period of frequent change, you encounter much 00:19:52,333 --> 00:19:55,100 属于那个大人世界的内容 of what belongs to the adult world. 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,933 这个是无论如何都会存在的 That will happen no matter what. 00:19:57,933 --> 00:20:00,900 那在这样的情况下作为 Under those circumstances, 00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:05,566 完全面向成年人的作品 去表达表达出一个什么样的价值观 the values expressed by works made entirely for adults 00:20:05,866 --> 00:20:08,500 不能说完全是对于青少年没有影响的 can still affect teenagers. 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:11,466 啊那现在问题就回到了一个很本质的原因 And now the question returns to a fundamental point: 00:20:11,466 --> 00:20:13,600 就是为什么这个抽烟的动画 why would anime about smoking 00:20:13,933 --> 00:20:20,800 会在2026年令和时代这个一个很反对（抽烟） become popular in 2026, in the Reiwa era, 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:26,800 整体社会是对烟民有一个负面情绪的这么样的时代 when society as a whole holds negative feelings toward smokers? 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:28,566 会得到人气呢嗯 Why are they popular? 00:20:28,966 --> 00:20:31,433 也是这个本期节目的一个主旨 That is this episode’s theme. 00:20:31,433 --> 00:20:33,166 又回到这个问题上了 We have come back to it again. 00:20:33,166 --> 00:20:36,066 对这个问题大白又有怎样的看法呢 So what does Dabai think about this question? 00:20:36,066 --> 00:20:37,500 哈哈 Ha ha. 00:20:39,166 --> 00:20:42,133 我觉得它背后还有另外一个问题 I think there is another issue behind it. 00:20:42,133 --> 00:20:44,500 就是刚才我们其实也谈到 As we were just discussing, 00:20:44,766 --> 00:20:49,300 抽烟这个东西是不是那么的令人担忧 is smoking really so alarming? 00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:51,733 我们刚才在一定程度上 To some extent, we have already 00:20:51,733 --> 00:20:55,800 其实已经是把抽烟这个东西当做一个很负面的事情 treated smoking as something deeply negative 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:57,833 在自然而然的进行讨论了 without even questioning it. 00:20:57,833 --> 00:21:04,100 对吧 就是我们在说 这个动画里有烟 孩子们就见到了烟 Right? We say an anime contains cigarettes, so children see cigarettes, 00:21:04,366 --> 00:21:07,133 那以后会不会就抽烟等等等等 and might they then start smoking, and so on. 00:21:07,133 --> 00:21:13,766 这是一个其实可能在很多年轻的朋友看来 就很登味的想法 To many younger viewers, that probably sounds like an old-fashioned parental panic. 00:21:13,766 --> 00:21:17,333 我是分不清现实和虚拟吗？ Do you think I cannot tell reality from fiction? 00:21:17,333 --> 00:21:20,866 是在虚拟当中寻找现实的人脑子都有病 是吧 ‘Anyone who looks for reality in fiction must be crazy,’ right? 00:21:20,866 --> 00:21:22,766 这个阿虚的经典发言 That classic line from Kyon. 00:21:23,666 --> 00:21:27,200 这不是几十年前那个电子游戏的那个恐惧论 Isn’t this just like the moral panic over video games decades ago, 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:32,133 甚至再早一点对于这个《D&D（龙与地下城）》桌游的恐惧 or the even earlier panic over the tabletop game Dungeons & Dragons? 00:21:32,133 --> 00:21:36,533 就像如果大家看过《怪奇物语》里面讲的那个 It is like what you see in Stranger Things: 00:21:36,533 --> 00:21:40,600 哎 你玩这个游戏 是不是容易分不清真实和虚拟了？ ‘If you play this game, will you lose track of reality and fiction? 00:21:40,866 --> 00:21:45,000 你在游戏中杀人是不是这个以后就会变得更暴力 If you kill people in a game, will you become more violent 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,466 在现实当中杀人了 and kill in real life? 00:21:46,466 --> 00:21:48,833 这是不是同样的逻辑呢？ Is this not the same logic? 00:21:48,833 --> 00:21:53,133 我觉得这个问题其实是值得去回应的 I think that question deserves a response. 00:21:53,133 --> 00:21:57,600 那抽烟的动画和现实当中的吸烟 What exactly is the relationship between smoking in anime 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,333 究竟是一个怎么样的关系 and smoking in real life? 00:22:00,333 --> 00:22:07,733 这个是我们讨论背后的一个更直接 更值得去回答的问题 That is the more direct and important question behind our discussion. 00:22:08,333 --> 00:22:14,533 嗯 那在这其实我就想接一点就是日本整体的社会环境 Here I want to add some data on Japan’s broader social environment 00:22:14,533 --> 00:22:17,000 包括这个动画的演变的一些数据吧 and the evolution of anime. 00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:19,633 尤其是这个日本的所谓战后 Especially in postwar Japan, 00:22:19,633 --> 00:22:24,033 50-70年代的时候日本的整体的一个吸烟率 from the 1950s through the 1970s, the overall smoking rate 00:22:24,033 --> 00:22:26,800 高到是一个很恐怖的数据 was frighteningly high. 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,900 当时最高昭和40年 就是1960年代 At its peak around Showa 40, in the 1960s, 00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:35,866 那个时候日本整体的国民吸烟率 尤其是男性成年男性的吸烟率 Japan’s overall smoking rate—especially among adult men— 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,400 甚至一度达到过85%以上 once exceeded 85 percent. 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,166 哦那真的非常高基本上 Oh, that really is extremely high. 00:22:42,466 --> 00:22:43,466 相当于是 It was basically 00:22:43,766 --> 00:22:45,966 100个成年里头85个抽烟 eighty-five in every hundred adults. 00:22:45,966 --> 00:22:50,200 你不抽烟反而在那个年代是一个珍稀动物这样的一种存在 If you did not smoke, you were the rare creature in that era. 00:22:50,566 --> 00:22:53,633 尤其到了七十年代高仓健啊 By the 1970s, stars like Ken Takakura 00:22:53,633 --> 00:22:56,366 包括这个头像 松田优作 and Yusaku Matsuda, shown here, 00:22:57,300 --> 00:22:59,433 啊就是《侦探物语》那个片子 the lead in Detective Story, 00:22:59,433 --> 00:23:01,933 就主角他就是烟不离手 当年的男性 were never without a cigarette. For men back then, 00:23:01,933 --> 00:23:03,733 香烟对于男性来说 cigarettes meant 00:23:03,733 --> 00:23:06,933 就是一个啊我成熟了我是大人了 ‘I’m mature now; I’m an adult, 00:23:06,933 --> 00:23:11,100 我就该开始抽烟了 这样一个很水到渠成的 so it is only natural that I should start smoking.’ 00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:13,866 一个很普遍的认知的这样一种形象 That image was widely accepted. 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,833 尤其是当年日本很流行的就是刑事剧 Police dramas were especially popular in Japan then. 00:23:17,833 --> 00:23:20,700 嗯包括不管是好人坏人都是抽烟 Good guys and bad guys alike smoked. 00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:23,033 在电影院里边看电影边抽烟 People smoked while watching films in cinemas, 00:23:23,033 --> 00:23:27,600 在飞机上边坐飞机边抽烟都是一件很正常的事情 and smoked while flying on airplanes. It was all perfectly normal. 00:23:28,066 --> 00:23:30,433 包括甚至现在无法想象 There were even things unimaginable today: 00:23:30,433 --> 00:23:32,100 医院啊学校里边 smoking in hospitals and schools. 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,900 当年的这个学园电视剧校园电视剧 In school dramas of that era, 00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:38,433 老师在学校的办公室里边闲的无聊了 when teachers were idle in the staff room, 00:23:38,433 --> 00:23:42,000 就是怎么着了这个镜头 也随手就点起一根 they would casually light a cigarette right there onscreen. 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,566 这个事情是到了80年90年之后慢慢开始 It was only after the 1980s and 1990s that this slowly began to change, 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,333 大家意识到香烟这个东西 as people realized that cigarettes 00:23:49,333 --> 00:23:52,666 对于青少年的健康是不好的影响的时候 were harmful to young people’s health. 00:23:52,666 --> 00:23:54,466 开始渐渐减少吸烟率 Smoking rates then began to decline. 00:23:54,866 --> 00:23:59,266 大概日本是在90年代我记得是末期吧 In Japan, around the late 1990s, if I remember correctly, 00:23:59,566 --> 00:24:01,533 开始渐渐香烟广告 cigarette ads began to fade. 00:24:01,533 --> 00:24:07,700 尤其是日本的那个香烟株式会社就是简称JT那公司 In particular, Japan Tobacco—JT— 00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:11,166 渐渐它的香烟广告从电视上撤退了 gradually withdrew its cigarette commercials from television. 00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:13,666 这最后一款这个香烟广告 This final cigarette commercial, 00:24:13,933 --> 00:24:16,333 没记错是1998年左右的时候 if I remember correctly, was from around 1998. 00:24:16,333 --> 00:24:20,400 就是刚才大白给大家展示的seven STARS It was the Seven Stars ad Dabai just showed everyone. 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,866 这是最后一个香烟广告 This was the last cigarette commercial. 00:24:23,866 --> 00:24:27,100 是葬礼结束之后一个男性 After a funeral, a man— 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,066 儿子 这样一个角色 在雨天哗啦哗啦场景 the son—stands in pouring rain, 00:24:31,066 --> 00:24:35,666 掏出一根烟 那个男性主角的妈妈给他点上一根烟 takes out a cigarette, and his mother lights it for him. 00:24:35,666 --> 00:24:39,833 没有任何台词 旁白只有一句さようなら 再见了 There is no dialogue. The voice-over says only, ‘Sayonara’—goodbye. 00:24:39,833 --> 00:24:43,466 也是对这个香烟广告说那个再见的这么一个 It is also saying goodbye to cigarette advertising, 00:24:43,866 --> 00:24:45,033 多重含义 with many meanings. 00:24:45,033 --> 00:24:46,733 很硬核很硬派的 Very hard-edged and masculine, 00:24:47,100 --> 00:24:48,600 很硬派的这么一个广告 a truly hard-boiled ad. 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,200 这个广告十几年前了吧有人上传YouTube Someone uploaded it to YouTube more than a decade ago. 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,866 嗯作为最后一支香烟广告 As the last cigarette ad, 00:24:53,866 --> 00:24:56,900 它的播放量大家怀念啊这是最后一支香烟广告 it drew over a million views from people remembering it, 00:24:56,900 --> 00:24:59,500 100多万播放 底下有一个评论区有一条 and there was one comment underneath 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:01,266 我觉得很有意思的一点 which I found fascinating. 00:25:01,266 --> 00:25:04,466 就是底下评论区有一条说我公司的前辈 The comment said that a senior colleague at the writer’s company 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,100 当年就是因为看了这条广告之后才开始学会抽烟 had started smoking because he saw this commercial back then. 00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:12,466 对 所以说香烟这个东西 Right. So cigarettes 00:25:12,466 --> 00:25:17,500 在当年就身为一种硬汉一种男性的成熟的一种象征 were once a symbol of toughness and male maturity, 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,466 作为这样一个符号存在 a signifier carrying those meanings. 00:25:20,466 --> 00:25:22,933 确实给电视机前的观众 They really did give viewers at home, 00:25:23,366 --> 00:25:28,100 不管大小都带来了一定的劝烟的一种影响存在 young and old, a certain encouragement to smoke. 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:30,966 这个是不可否认的一个现实 That reality cannot be denied. 00:25:30,966 --> 00:25:33,066 所以包括你现在看打开日本电视 So turn on Japanese TV now, 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,700 那种最阳光 you may see the sunniest, 00:25:36,133 --> 00:25:39,633 啊最这个朝气蓬勃的广告不宣传产品 most energetic commercial, not advertising any product, 00:25:39,633 --> 00:25:42,500 就是仅仅啊我们宣传我们公司 but simply promoting the company itself: 00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:45,100 一个年轻的朝气蓬勃的男性 a young, energetic man 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:48,433 他在社会努力工作呀怎样运动啊 working hard in society and exercising, 00:25:48,433 --> 00:25:51,200 最后出现一个广告Logo：JT and finally a corporate logo appears: JT, 00:25:51,566 --> 00:25:53,933 啊日本香烟株式会社 Japan Tobacco. 00:25:53,933 --> 00:25:54,733 就是 啊？ You go, ‘Huh?’ 00:25:55,066 --> 00:25:57,766 你会想象 啊？这是一个香烟公司广告 ‘This is an ad for a cigarette company? 00:25:58,366 --> 00:26:01,200 香烟公司的广告会做这样的广告吗 Would a cigarette company really make an ad like this?’ 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,700 反正到时候视频版我肯定会放出 I’ll definitely include one 00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:06,733 一个类似的这种广告的画面 of these commercials in the video version. 00:26:06,733 --> 00:26:10,600 大家可以嗯自己感受一下所谓的物极必反 You can experience for yourselves how extremes produce their opposite. 00:26:11,766 --> 00:26:15,333 对这个很有意思 因为其实还是那个点 Right, this is interesting because it returns to the same point: 00:26:15,333 --> 00:26:21,400 就是我们在说人多大程度上会受到这个媒体内容的一个影响 to what extent are people influenced by media content? 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,933 这些流行文化作品到底对人产生多大的影响 How much do works of popular culture affect us? 00:26:26,466 --> 00:26:32,733 那我觉得其实可能结论上还是我们还是挺容易受到影响的 My conclusion is probably that we are quite easily influenced. 00:26:32,733 --> 00:26:37,633 就是当然它的好笑的点 或者说讽刺的点就在于 Of course, the funny—or ironic—part is that 00:26:37,633 --> 00:26:40,200 如果你明确的去问一个人 if you ask someone explicitly, 00:26:40,566 --> 00:26:46,033 就比如我问你 风见97郎 你知不知道一个影视作品是假的 for example, ‘Kazami 97, do you know that film and television are fictional?’ 00:26:46,033 --> 00:26:48,066 你说那这不是当然的吗 you would say, ‘Of course I do. 00:26:48,066 --> 00:26:51,200 我这个肯定是知道这是假的呀 I obviously know it is fake.’ 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,366 人在被问的时候都会有这种倾向 People tend to respond that way when asked. 00:26:54,366 --> 00:26:59,466 会认为要是有人分不清真实和虚假那 They think anyone unable to tell reality from fiction 00:26:59,866 --> 00:27:00,800 这人得多傻啊 must be so stupid, 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,000 或者说他是有什么问题啊 对吧 or have something wrong with them, right? 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,100 这个我们很容易有这样的想法 It is very easy for us to think that way. 00:27:05,466 --> 00:27:09,133 而这个恰恰就是W. J. T. Mitchell很经典的那个著作 That is precisely the classic point W. J. T. Mitchell makes 00:27:09,133 --> 00:27:13,266 《What Do Pictures Want?》《图像想要什么？》这本书里面 in his book What Do Pictures Want?, 00:27:13,266 --> 00:27:16,333 就开篇就提到的一个观点 right at the beginning: 00:27:16,333 --> 00:27:20,733 我们看到这些影像的时候会觉得我们是清醒的 when we see images, we believe we are fully conscious, 00:27:20,733 --> 00:27:23,866 但实际上我们我们总会被它影响 but in reality, they always affect us. 00:27:23,866 --> 00:27:28,166 而且我们其实在内心的深处也知道我们会被它影响 Deep down, we also know that they affect us. 00:27:28,166 --> 00:27:29,733 要不然就不会去谈 Otherwise, we would not discuss 00:27:29,733 --> 00:27:33,400 对影像作品做出一个什么样的道德层面的规制了 what moral restrictions should be imposed on visual media. 00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:37,500 嗯就是所谓的潜移默化的一种影响 It is the kind of subtle influence that works on us over time. 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:40,366 就是不自觉的观众会去模仿 Viewers imitate things without realizing it, 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,100 会受到电视荧屏里这些所谓的明星啊角色 copying the behavior of stars and characters 00:27:45,466 --> 00:27:46,900 他行为的一种模仿 they see on television. 00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:49,266 对我们很难说就是1:1的 Right. It is not one-to-one, 00:27:49,266 --> 00:27:53,066 或者说你看了这个东西就一定会怎么怎么样 or that seeing something will inevitably make you do it. 00:27:53,066 --> 00:27:59,766 但是你可以想象在一个作品越贴近现实环境的时候 But the closer a work is to a real-life setting, 00:27:59,766 --> 00:28:03,333 你可能就越容易产生某种联想 the more easily it may trigger certain associations. 00:28:03,333 --> 00:28:08,433 当一个作品和现实它设定离得非常远的时候啊 When a work’s setting is very far removed from reality, 00:28:08,433 --> 00:28:10,466 你可能更容易分清 it may be easier to tell the difference. 00:28:10,466 --> 00:28:15,600 人并不是一个在每时每刻都能够去意识到 Human beings cannot remain aware at every moment 00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:23,266 我所正在消费的这个东西是真的还是假的一个生物 of whether what they are consuming is real or fake. 00:28:23,266 --> 00:28:25,966 那当我们把它转化为语言的时候 When we turn it into language, 00:28:25,966 --> 00:28:28,666 你可能会对这些词有清晰的定义 we may be able to define these words clearly: 00:28:28,666 --> 00:28:30,800 什么是好的什么是不好的 what is good and what is bad, 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,733 什么是真的什么是假的 what is real and what is fake. 00:28:32,733 --> 00:28:35,033 但它呈现在图像里的时候啊 But when it is presented as an image, 00:28:35,033 --> 00:28:37,966 特别是随着我们的社会不断的发展 especially as society keeps developing 00:28:37,966 --> 00:28:41,600 这个越来越多的图像进入到我们生活的时候 and more and more images enter our lives, 00:28:41,900 --> 00:28:44,400 啊你会发现这个事情是 you find that this becomes 00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:46,733 越来越困难的嗯 increasingly difficult. 00:28:46,733 --> 00:28:52,000 而且我觉得其中还有一个值得去讨论的因素 I think there is another factor worth discussing. 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,800 就是我们刚才其实也提到 在最开始谈到《在超市后门吸烟的两人》 When we first discussed Smoking Behind the Supermarket with You 00:28:57,266 --> 00:28:59,800 和《尼古喵喵》这两个作品的时候 and Yani Neko, 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,966 提到了他的一种美化行为 we mentioned how they glamorize things. 00:29:02,466 --> 00:29:08,766 就是有的时候人可能并不能完全真的直面所谓的一个真相 Sometimes people cannot fully face what we call the truth. 00:29:08,766 --> 00:29:10,500 就好像我不知道这个 I do not know whether 00:29:11,266 --> 00:29:13,733 大家有没有听过这样的说法 everyone has heard this idea, 00:29:13,733 --> 00:29:16,200 但是在那个心理学里还挺常见的 but it is quite common in psychology: 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,433 这个当你去把一个东西命名的时候 when you give something a name, 00:29:19,433 --> 00:29:21,500 当你认识到它的存在的时候 when you recognize that it exists, 00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:24,300 你可能就已经开始去解决这个问题了 you may already have begun to solve the problem. 00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:26,400 就是解决这个问题的第一步 That is the first step toward solving it. 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,566 比如说当我们感到焦虑的时候 如果我能说 For example, when we feel anxious, if I can say, 00:29:29,566 --> 00:29:30,933 唉我现在在焦虑 ‘Oh, I’m anxious. 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,966 啊我知道了我在焦虑 I see—I’m anxious,’ 00:29:32,966 --> 00:29:36,933 这个事本身其实就会让你开始变得不那么焦虑 that realization itself can begin to make you less anxious. 00:29:36,933 --> 00:29:41,066 因为他把一个不可名状的东西变得可名状了那 It makes something ineffable into something that can be named. 00:29:41,733 --> 00:29:43,466 反过来其实也是一样的 The reverse is also true. 00:29:43,733 --> 00:29:48,166 我们有的时候可能会让一个可名状的东西变得不可名状 Sometimes we turn something nameable into something ineffable. 00:29:48,666 --> 00:29:51,533 为什么我刚才会对《在超市后门吸烟的两人》 Why criticize Smoking Behind the Supermarket with You 00:29:51,533 --> 00:29:54,400 相对于《尼古喵喵》来讲有更多的批判 more than Yani Neko? 00:29:54,666 --> 00:29:58,333 当你把抽烟带来的种种问题 If you take all the problems caused by smoking— 00:29:58,333 --> 00:30:03,000 比如说皮肤会变差牙会变黄身上有味道对吧 worse skin, yellow teeth, and the smell on your body, right?— 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,433 这个是对于不抽烟的人来讲很容易感受到的一个 things that nonsmokers notice very easily, 00:30:07,433 --> 00:30:10,600 这个他对抽烟讨厌的几个理由 and that give them several reasons to dislike smoking, 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,666 你把这些特质放到这个山田小姐身上的话 and apply those traits to Miss Yamada, 00:30:15,133 --> 00:30:18,566 你会发现这个角色一下子就失去了很多魅力 you find that the character instantly loses much of her appeal. 00:30:18,566 --> 00:30:21,100 但是恰恰动画的这样的媒介 But animation as a medium 00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:24,266 它让你对这样的形象进行了一种美化 allows that image to be glamorized. 00:30:24,266 --> 00:30:26,566 它让你隔绝掉了这些可能性 It screens those possibilities away from you. 00:30:26,733 --> 00:30:29,966 对嗯 就实际上在现实生活中 Right. In real life, 00:30:29,966 --> 00:30:34,733 你见到一个20多岁靠打零工养活自己的 if you met a woman in her twenties supporting herself with odd jobs, 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,400 啊闲的无聊最喜欢干的事 whose favorite thing to do when bored 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,866 就是躲在超市后门抽根烟舒缓自己 was hide behind a supermarket and smoke to relieve stress, 00:30:40,866 --> 00:30:45,000 这样的角色形象在三次元就是咱们现实的生活中 then in three-dimensional reality—in our actual lives— 00:30:45,366 --> 00:30:48,366 大家都会尊称一声精神小妹嗯对吧 people would call her a delinquent girl, right? 00:30:48,366 --> 00:30:51,733 但是实际经过动画的美化大家觉得啊 But once animation glamorizes her, people think, 00:30:51,733 --> 00:30:54,033 这是一个很酷的女生 ‘She is such a cool girl.’ 00:30:54,033 --> 00:30:59,333 这种认知的美化 确实也是值得担忧的一件事情 That glamorized perception really is cause for concern. 00:30:59,333 --> 00:31:04,233 嗯是再包括《尼古喵喵》我觉得也就更有意思了 And Yani Neko makes this even more interesting, I think. 00:31:04,233 --> 00:31:08,233 因为《尼古喵喵》其实就像刚才我们也谈到过两次的 As we have already mentioned twice, in Yani Neko, 00:31:08,233 --> 00:31:10,533 主角是一个猫娘的形象 the protagonist has the form of a catgirl. 00:31:11,066 --> 00:31:14,366 它本身就和现实当中有一个抽离了 That already creates some distance from reality. 00:31:14,366 --> 00:31:18,600 它就其实一定程度上就像呼应了我刚才说的 To some extent, it echoes what I just said: 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,800 它虽然拥有更现实的抽烟的描写 although its depiction of smoking is more realistic, 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,466 但是这个社会本身和主角本身是更抽离了 both its world and its protagonist are more removed from reality. 00:31:26,466 --> 00:31:31,533 它并没有真正提供给你一个完全1:1的对现实的还原 It does not give you a completely one-to-one reproduction of reality. 00:31:31,533 --> 00:31:33,066 因为那样的话 Because if it did, 00:31:33,066 --> 00:31:36,800 说白了那样的东西也没什么可看的对吧 frankly, there would be little worth watching, right? 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,266 这不就是你的现实生活吗嗯 Wouldn’t that just be your real life? 00:31:39,733 --> 00:31:44,500 嗯他恰恰是通过把一个明明内心里这个 What it does instead is take someone who, on the inside, 00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:48,000 和很多看这个片子的大叔 is identical to many middle-aged men 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,966 或者说这个男青年的内心画等号的时候 or young men watching the show, 00:31:52,966 --> 00:31:57,933 却用猫娘的这样的形象来自我指代 and represent that self through the image of a catgirl. 00:31:58,333 --> 00:32:01,933 我觉得这个其实是很有意思的一个东西 I find that very interesting. 00:32:01,933 --> 00:32:05,200 就是你会发现猫娘它变成了 You discover that the catgirl becomes 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:10,700 所谓的主角的我 就是一个观众能够移情的对象 the protagonist’s ‘self’—someone the audience can identify with. 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:17,933 一个男性的观众他是在以借由猫娘的身体来去观看 A male viewer looks through the catgirl’s body 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:19,366 自己的行为 at his behavior. 00:32:19,366 --> 00:32:22,366 我不知道这样说能不能让大家理解 I do not know if that explanation makes sense. 00:32:22,533 --> 00:32:25,100 他的外表是一个美猫娘 On the outside, she is a beautiful catgirl, 00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:28,266 但是他的内核精神内核实际上是 but at her spiritual core she is actually 00:32:28,266 --> 00:32:31,466 一个人类的三五十岁的大叔 a human man in his thirties, forties, or fifties. 00:32:31,466 --> 00:32:34,166 这样的一种反差感反而有一种 That contrast instead creates 00:32:34,666 --> 00:32:37,400 莫名的一种亲切感可能在里边吧 a strange sense of familiarity. 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,200 我就觉得对这个就是反差感和亲切感是一方面 Right—the contrast and familiarity are one aspect, 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,333 但是更多的还是一种美化 but mainly, it beautifies things. 00:32:43,766 --> 00:32:48,733 就是嗯他让那些你不想去直面的东西 It takes things you do not want to face, 00:32:48,733 --> 00:32:52,500 或者说你不想去看到的方式 or do not want to see in their original form, 00:32:52,766 --> 00:32:56,133 以一个更软化的方式让你被看到 and shows them to you in a softened way. 00:32:56,500 --> 00:32:59,700 这样说可能还是会有点绕的话 That may still sound a little convoluted, 00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:01,200 我尽可能把它说明白 so I’ll make it clear. 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,733 就是在你的内心深处 Deep down, 00:33:02,733 --> 00:33:04,566 也许你想要反省 perhaps you want to reflect, 00:33:04,566 --> 00:33:10,133 或者说去有一些这个对自我的调侃和自我的认识 or engage in self-mockery and self-understanding, 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,500 但是你并不能够真的在一个日常的氛围当中 but you cannot really do that 00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:16,600 去很好的做到这件事情 very well in an ordinary everyday setting. 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,866 因为你的社会压力很大你是一个社会人 Social pressure is intense; you are a member of society. 00:33:20,666 --> 00:33:24,700 它要求着你对你的行为做着种种的规训 Society imposes all kinds of rules on your behavior. 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,933 反而是借由一个异样的身体借由猫娘 Instead, through an unfamiliar body—a catgirl’s body— 00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:33,300 你才能够完成一定程度的抽离 you can achieve a certain distance from yourself. 00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:37,166 而这种抽离才给了你观看自己的一个契机 And that distance gives you an opportunity to look at yourself. 00:33:37,466 --> 00:33:37,900 嗯嗯 Mm-hmm. 00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:43,033 这就是在应该是在上个世纪有一个90年代那会 This reminds me of a media study from the 1990s, 00:33:43,033 --> 00:33:45,733 应该是就是有一个媒介研究 sometime late in the last century, 00:33:45,733 --> 00:33:48,300 是关于美国恐怖片的 about American horror films. 00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:51,200 这个作者学者 The scholar who wrote it 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:57,066 他就有一个关键的概念叫做Final Girl 最终的女孩/最终的少女 used a key concept called the ‘Final Girl.’ 00:33:57,333 --> 00:34:01,333 在当时美国恐怖片那种B级片里面 In American B-movie horror films of that era, 00:34:01,333 --> 00:34:05,100 最终战胜这个怪物或者说恶魔的 the person who ultimately defeated the monster or demon 00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:09,933 往往不是一个像施瓦辛格或者是这个史泰龙这样的男性 was usually not a man like Schwarzenegger or Stallone, 00:34:09,933 --> 00:34:11,166 而是一个女性 but a woman. 00:34:11,700 --> 00:34:18,200 这个女性是最后真正的战胜恐惧的主角那嗯 She was the protagonist who ultimately overcame fear. 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,633 他就说这样的东西其实本质上是在说 The argument was that this essentially reflected 00:34:22,633 --> 00:34:26,133 在美国当时的文化和影像环境里面 the American cultural and media environment of the time, 00:34:26,300 --> 00:34:31,000 男性是不允许去展示特别多的恐惧和害怕的 where men were not allowed to show too much fear. 00:34:31,366 --> 00:34:34,100 但是男性的观众又有这个需求 Yet male viewers still had that need, 00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:40,566 所以他们只能借由一个女性主角 看这个小女孩害怕恐惧 so they could only watch a female lead—a frightened young woman— 00:34:40,566 --> 00:34:44,166 但是最后同时又战胜了这个东西 who ultimately overcame the threat as well. 00:34:44,166 --> 00:34:49,366 他需要这个女性的身体来完成他自己要做的东西 They needed a female body to accomplish what they themselves needed to do. 00:34:49,366 --> 00:34:50,800 就是其实这个东西 This idea, in fact, 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,200 我觉得为什么我会把它拿来和《尼古喵喵》来做对比是因为 is why I compare it with Yani Neko: 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,633 我觉得它真的离我们没有这么远 I do not think it is so far removed from us. 00:34:57,633 --> 00:35:02,733 而且比如说我们会看到另外一个有意思的现象比如说VTuber We can see another interesting phenomenon in VTubers, for example, 00:35:02,733 --> 00:35:07,000 或者说在这个B站的VUP这些皮套 or the virtual avatars used by VUPs on Bilibili. 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,466 有很多男性主播会用一个 Many male streamers use 00:35:10,466 --> 00:35:13,600 很少女的这样的皮套那 very girlish avatars. 00:35:14,066 --> 00:35:17,300 中性风对大家不会觉得这样有什么问题 If the style is androgynous, people see no problem with it. 00:35:17,733 --> 00:35:23,066 嗯其实就是在说但是也会有一些男性的Vtuber But some male VTubers 00:35:23,066 --> 00:35:25,733 会去比如说包括用变声器啊 also use voice changers 00:35:25,733 --> 00:35:29,400 等等手段来去扮演一个女性 and other methods to play a woman. 00:35:29,766 --> 00:35:35,566 啊这个可能就又进了一步就是他去代入到一个 That may go a step further: they place themselves 00:35:35,566 --> 00:35:38,600 本来不属于自己的身体当中 inside a body that was not originally their own. 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,533 其实是能够满足他自己的一些想法和欲望的 This can satisfy some of their own ideas and desires. 00:35:42,533 --> 00:35:47,966 我不是说这个欲望一定是性的欲望 by the way I am not saying that desire must be sexual, by the way. 00:35:47,966 --> 00:35:49,400 但是 But 00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:54,333 但是它是有一个允许你看到自己的可能性 it does allow you the possibility of seeing yourself. 00:35:54,333 --> 00:35:56,600 就是其实我觉得它就 I think it actually 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,500 建立了一个微妙的边界 establishes a subtle boundary. 00:35:58,966 --> 00:36:02,533 能够让我们去回应比如说一开始的这个 That lets us respond to the initial concern, for example, 00:36:02,533 --> 00:36:07,766 就动画里抽烟就会等于现实里抽烟的这样的担忧 that smoking in anime equals smoking in real life. 00:36:07,766 --> 00:36:11,900 是不是完全类似于一个过度担忧 Is that concern simply excessive? 00:36:12,733 --> 00:36:15,933 和 动画和现实完全没有影响 中间 Between that and saying anime has no effect on reality, 00:36:15,933 --> 00:36:20,166 我们在这中间能够划定一个稍微就是虽然不稳定 can we draw a boundary that may be unstable, 00:36:20,166 --> 00:36:25,500 但是分开两者的一个边界 我们并不一定是非此即彼的 but still separates the two? We do not need an either-or answer. 00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:31,233 而是说你要看到它有一些让你能够去 Instead, we should recognize that fiction has some potential 00:36:31,233 --> 00:36:34,333 从虚构向现实转化的一个可能性 to be translated into reality. 00:36:34,333 --> 00:36:39,933 但是我们也不是说这个虚构向现实的转化是完全1:1的 But we are not saying that this translation is completely one-to-one. 00:36:39,933 --> 00:36:41,500 这样的转化 That process 00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:43,966 同时它可能还会带来一些 may also bring 00:36:44,733 --> 00:36:46,766 其他的更复杂的问题 other, more complex issues. 00:36:46,766 --> 00:36:50,066 我们在这里可能未必能够完全展开 We may not be able to explore all of them here. 00:36:50,066 --> 00:36:52,566 就像我刚才举的例子是这个 Take the example I just gave: 00:36:52,566 --> 00:36:56,566 Vtuber和VUP这种扮演的一个例子 VTubers and VUPs playing these roles. 00:36:56,566 --> 00:36:59,833 其实一定程度上我们如果稍作批判的话 If we apply some criticism, to a certain extent, 00:36:59,833 --> 00:37:01,966 也可以说其实一定程度上 we could also say that 00:37:01,966 --> 00:37:06,733 我们在把女性是什么 也在做一种刻板印象化的想象 we are stereotyping what a woman is. 00:37:06,733 --> 00:37:09,466 它和我们对于说男性应该抽烟 That resembles the idea that men should smoke, 00:37:09,466 --> 00:37:12,800 就像最开始你说的那个东西是有点类似的 which you mentioned at the very beginning. 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,233 因为当你再去比如说把女性特质 When you equate feminine qualities, for example, 00:37:16,233 --> 00:37:19,933 等于一个精致的皮套的时候 with an exquisitely designed avatar, 00:37:19,933 --> 00:37:24,666 包括说男性在扮演女性Vtuber的时候 including when men perform as female VTubers, 00:37:24,966 --> 00:37:27,533 他们知不知道自己不是女性呢 do they know they are not women? 00:37:27,533 --> 00:37:28,733 当然是知道的 Of course they do. 00:37:28,733 --> 00:37:35,000 这个也是应该是前两年有一个关于Vtuber的研究论文 A research paper on VTubers from a couple of years ago 00:37:35,266 --> 00:37:41,200 在对这些Vtuber进行访谈的时候 有一个很有意思的东西 found something very interesting when interviewing them. 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:42,866 就是绝大多数的人 The great majority 00:37:42,866 --> 00:37:45,200 会比较强烈的认同 strongly identified with the fact 00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:49,966 他知道自己正在进行一个虚拟的扮演 that they knew they were performing virtually. 00:37:49,966 --> 00:37:53,200 但是又是同样的一批人会认为 Yet the same group also believed 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,700 他们在成为美少女之后 that after becoming beautiful girls, 00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:57,466 日常行为发生了变化 their everyday behavior changed. 00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:01,400 那你怎么处理这之间的张力呢 对吧 How do you handle that tension? 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:06,200 就是所以现实和虚拟并不是真正能够完全分开的 Reality and virtuality cannot truly be separated completely. 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,500 他们所扮演的女性一定程度上是自己的一种想象啊 The women they play are, to some extent, their own imagined version, 00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:13,666 并不是真的真的女性 not real women. 00:38:13,666 --> 00:38:19,266 这个是虚拟作品其实永远回避不了的一个问题 Virtual works can never completely avoid this problem. 00:38:19,533 --> 00:38:24,666 嗯 那就还是又绕回这个最初的要思考的一个问题 So we circle back to the original question: 00:38:24,666 --> 00:38:28,233 为什么这样一个以抽烟为主题的动画片 why can an anime centered on smoking 00:38:28,233 --> 00:38:31,633 能在现在这个时代的环境中得到人气 become popular in today’s environment? 00:38:31,633 --> 00:38:38,766 嗯我觉得整体从这个所谓仅仅深夜动画领域来说 Looking only at the field of late-night anime, 00:38:38,766 --> 00:38:43,933 从几年前开始流行的所谓的厕纸穿越异世界 in recent years we have seen the rise of disposable isekai, 00:38:44,266 --> 00:38:49,200 就是异世界里就没有异世界人全是穿越过去的勇者 这那的 where other worlds seem filled entirely with transported heroes, 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,766 这些所谓的厕纸动画集体爆发的一个年代里来看 and such disposable anime have appeared en masse. 00:38:54,300 --> 00:39:00,266 这种反而回归于贴近观众的生活的 Against that backdrop, works that return to lives close to the audience 00:39:00,266 --> 00:39:02,766 这样一种所谓接近日常的动画 and are closer to the everyday 00:39:03,133 --> 00:39:08,933 反而在这个时代是一种很少有的很接地气的一种题材 have become rare, grounded subjects in this era. 00:39:08,933 --> 00:39:13,800 这个首先是我觉得这一类作品它有人气的其中原因之一 I think that is one reason these works are popular. 00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:19,366 其次它是一部很明显的并不是小朋友可以理解的 Second, this is clearly not something children can understand. 00:39:19,366 --> 00:39:22,866 真的是专门的为大人所创作的 It really is made specifically for adults. 00:39:22,866 --> 00:39:28,300 大人能在其中作品之中感受到 我是有一种 Adults can recognize something in it— 00:39:28,300 --> 00:39:32,866 也是能有感同身受确实有这种所谓的代入感 they can empathize and genuinely identify with it. 00:39:32,866 --> 00:39:36,666 嗯也给大人看的一种青春片 It is a coming-of-age story for adults, 00:39:36,666 --> 00:39:39,733 这样一种作品的内核在里面 and that is part of the work’s core. 00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:45,633 历来的所谓的恋爱啊或者怎样whatever的这些作品 Traditional romance stories and similar works 00:39:45,633 --> 00:39:47,666 可能都是什么青梅竹马呀 may feature childhood sweethearts 00:39:47,666 --> 00:39:50,333 高中生之间互相的爱恋呀这种 or high-school students falling in love, 00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:54,666 比较啊你在现实中是碰不到这样的美少女的 and beautiful girls you would never meet in real life. 00:39:54,666 --> 00:39:57,466 这样一种脱离现实非现实的题材 Those are unrealistic subjects detached from reality. 00:39:57,466 --> 00:40:00,700 而这部片子我觉得它最巧妙的点就是 What this show does so cleverly 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,133 把本身不该有任何交集的两个群体 is take two groups that should never have crossed paths 00:40:04,133 --> 00:40:06,966 以这样一个很偶然以这样 and use a chance encounter— 00:40:06,966 --> 00:40:11,333 稍微脱离于现代时代的一种带有所谓的古臭感 a slightly old-fashioned method, removed from modern life— 00:40:12,066 --> 00:40:13,500 这样的方式 in this way 00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:17,433 将两个不应该交集在一起的群体连接在一起 to connect two groups that should not intersect. 00:40:17,433 --> 00:40:19,533 这是一个很有意思的点 That is a very interesting point. 00:40:20,300 --> 00:40:22,566 嗯因为本身抽烟这个事情 Smoking itself, 00:40:22,566 --> 00:40:25,066 就从现在观众的理解上来看 from the perspective of today’s audience, 00:40:25,066 --> 00:40:26,733 已经脱离电视荧屏 has long left television 00:40:26,733 --> 00:40:30,233 电影荧屏很久很久的一种描写的方式 and cinema as a form of depiction. 00:40:30,233 --> 00:40:34,000 再次拉回到现在这个以作为作品的核心 Now it has been brought back as the core of a work, 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,200 或者说作品的一个主要的媒介之上嗯 or as its principal medium. 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,533 它是一个很古老的一种题材 It is a very old-fashioned subject, 00:40:40,533 --> 00:40:43,266 但是实际它以这个表面的一个题材 but beneath that surface subject, 00:40:43,266 --> 00:40:44,666 以香烟为媒介 using cigarettes, 00:40:44,666 --> 00:40:49,166 它真正想讲述的东西是一种这个孤独的大人 what it really wants to portray is lonely adults— 00:40:49,166 --> 00:40:52,966 在这个现实社会中想要逃避的大人或者怎样 adults who want to escape from real society— 00:40:52,966 --> 00:40:57,500 他们也能通过彼此通过这个香烟媒介 finding, through each other and through cigarettes, 00:40:57,500 --> 00:41:00,800 获得了对方的好意对方的温存 the other person’s kindness and warmth, 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,066 而得到自己心中小小的幸福 and a small happiness within themselves. 00:41:03,366 --> 00:41:08,333 这个是我觉着《在超市后门吸烟的两人》 I think this is what makes Smoking Behind the Supermarket with You 00:41:08,700 --> 00:41:11,266 这个作品就是在时代下 an important work of its time, 00:41:11,266 --> 00:41:16,200 成为这个重要的存在的一个很有趣的很重要的点 and it is a fascinating and important point. 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:17,733 嗯嗯好吧 Mm-hmm. All right. 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,700 是啊是啊 我觉得其实你说的已经差不多了嗯 Yes. I think you have covered it pretty well. 00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:30,666 但是作为不抽烟的人可能如果唱个反调的话 But as a nonsmoker, to offer a counterpoint, 00:41:30,666 --> 00:41:34,000 我觉得以烟作为媒介 I think using cigarettes as the medium 00:41:35,166 --> 00:41:37,833 还是就好像我全篇在说的东西 returns to what I have been saying throughout: 00:41:37,833 --> 00:41:39,100 当然它是一个媒介 of course, it is a medium 00:41:39,100 --> 00:41:40,866 但是媒介本身是有力量的 but a medium has power in itself. 00:41:40,866 --> 00:41:43,133 我们不是把它仅仅当做一个（中性的工具） We cannot treat it merely as a neutral tool. 00:41:43,133 --> 00:41:47,300 如果你把它仅仅看作一个从a点到b点的工具的话 If you see it only as a tool for getting from point A to point B, 00:41:47,300 --> 00:41:51,833 我觉得那我们就有一点太忽视媒介是什么了 then I think we are overlooking what a medium is. 00:41:51,833 --> 00:41:55,700 其实你刚才在说的东西是抽烟是媒介 You described smoking as the medium, 00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:59,633 但是我们实际达到的东西是一种情感 while what we actually reach is an emotion— 00:41:59,633 --> 00:42:01,600 人与人之间的链接 a connection between people. 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,666 嗯但是这个链接其实是有别的方式可以获得的 But that connection can be obtained in other ways, 00:42:06,666 --> 00:42:11,533 而抽烟未必是真的能够让你获得情感链接的一种方式 and smoking may not truly provide emotional connection. 00:42:13,666 --> 00:42:14,066 对吗 Right? 00:42:14,066 --> 00:42:17,800 就是当然我知道这个事情不是那么容易的 Of course, I know it is not that simple. 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,533 就是这个人想要（获得情感链接） 特别是在日本 People want emotional connection—especially in Japan. 00:42:20,533 --> 00:42:22,000 我们都在日本生活过 We have both lived in Japan. 00:42:22,366 --> 00:42:24,800 那个如果不是原本就有朋友的话 If you do not already have friends there, 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,333 你想要在那个环境认识一些新的朋友是挺难的 it is quite difficult to meet new ones in that environment. 00:42:28,333 --> 00:42:30,000 可能一个体育爱好 Someone who shares a sport 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,366 或者是一个什么兴趣爱好的朋友 or another hobby with you 00:42:32,366 --> 00:42:35,500 并不能真正成为你所谓生活中的朋友 may never truly become what you call a friend in your life. 00:42:35,500 --> 00:42:37,300 这当然都是都是真的 All of that is certainly true. 00:42:37,300 --> 00:42:38,800 所以你可能很压抑 So you may feel stifled, 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,233 但是那抽烟解决你这个问题吗？ but does smoking solve that problem? 00:42:41,233 --> 00:42:43,700 我觉得抽烟并不解决这个问题 I do not think it does. 00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:46,200 嗯还是那句话吧 So I’ll say it again: 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,166 奉劝大家这个珍爱生命 远离烟草好吧 cherish your life and stay away from tobacco, everyone. 00:42:51,366 --> 00:42:56,366 其实刚才节目一开头我没好说这个梗 There was a joke I did not mention at the start of the episode. 00:42:56,366 --> 00:43:00,466 就是之前到新宿 正好逛到新宿 Earlier, when I happened to be in Shinjuku, 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,566 烟没有了 我说想随手找个7-Eleven买一包 I ran out of cigarettes and went to a 7-Eleven for a pack. 00:43:04,566 --> 00:43:06,466 结果发现就是正好6月初 It happened to be early June, 00:43:06,466 --> 00:43:09,700 这个《在超市后门吸烟的两人》 when Smoking Behind the Supermarket with You 00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:12,266 在那个ABEMA刚刚上线的时候 had just launched on ABEMA. 00:43:12,700 --> 00:43:17,466 我就是突然人气就火到新宿那边的7-Eleven It suddenly became so popular that at 7-Elevens around Shinjuku, 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,100 这个Seven Stars竟然卖断货了 Seven Stars actually sold out. 00:43:20,500 --> 00:43:22,766 啊就包括现在其实 Even now, 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,300 大家点开小红书上随便搜一下也能看到 you can open Xiaohongshu and search for it, 00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:33,700 就是Seven Stars莫名其妙的成为了一个二次元的时尚单品 and see that Seven Stars has somehow become a fashionable otaku item. 00:43:33,933 --> 00:43:36,200 还有在漫展上散烟的是吧 They even hand out cigarettes at cons, right? 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,366 哎呀真的真的真的对这个确实就是 Yes, really. That is absolutely true. 00:43:39,866 --> 00:43:41,333 虽然我刚才一直说啊 Although I have kept saying 00:43:41,333 --> 00:43:45,733 这个香烟到现在只是一种表达两个人情感的媒介 that cigarettes are only a medium for expressing the pair’s feelings, 00:43:45,733 --> 00:43:50,900 这个媒介一种这表达的方式但是确实不得不承认 a medium and a form of expression, we still have to admit 00:43:50,900 --> 00:43:53,400 尤其是这部动画播放之后 that especially after the anime aired, 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,700 对观众造成的影响嗯我觉得 it did influence viewers. 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:04,666 尤其是未成年人对于这种不太健康 Especially for minors, depictions that are unhealthy 00:44:04,666 --> 00:44:07,000 不太友好的一种描写方式 and not particularly responsible 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,800 必须要有一种自己的思考在里面 好吧 must be approached with independent judgment. 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:17,266 不要因为电视节目里角色做出了怎样的不好的行为就去模仿 Do not imitate bad behavior just because a television character does it. 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,200 就是很禁烟的一个广告大使一样的身份 I sound like an antismoking ambassador, 00:44:22,533 --> 00:44:25,333 虽然我也干着这种不好的事 even though I do this unhealthy thing myself. 00:44:25,333 --> 00:44:28,133 还是告诉大家奉劝大家这个 Still, I advise everyone: 00:44:28,133 --> 00:44:30,700 珍爱生命 远离抽烟 cherish your life and stay away from smoking. 00:44:31,466 --> 00:44:34,166 嗯嗯好那我们这期节目就到这吧 All right, let’s end this episode here. 00:44:35,666 --> 00:44:36,466 哎呀 Oh dear. 00:44:37,066 --> 00:44:38,700 行吧点一根 Fine, let’s light one up. 00:44:39,066 --> 00:44:40,266 点一根啊呸 Light one—no! 00:44:41,066 --> 00:44:43,266 哎呀我也造成了不好的影响了 Oh no, I have set a bad example too. 00:44:43,966 --> 00:44:46,166 啊我是这不会点一根的 I would never light one up. 00:44:46,966 --> 00:44:49,133 大白是一个很讨厌烟的人好吧 Dabai really hates cigarettes, okay? 00:44:49,133 --> 00:44:51,166 最后啊节目结束 Now that the episode is ending, 00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:54,866 我能容忍风见97郎是我这一生最大的宽容 tolerating Kazami 97 is the greatest act of tolerance in my life. 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,866 一个小的娱乐环节 Here is a little bonus story. 00:44:59,866 --> 00:45:01,700 就是有时候开着车 Sometimes when I’m driving— 00:45:01,700 --> 00:45:04,300 我在那边我在日本那边有时候 when I was in Japan, 00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:07,100 经常开着车带大白他们怎么去玩 I often drove Dabai and the others around for fun. 00:45:07,100 --> 00:45:10,900 每次开累了我会在车上点一根边开边那什么 Whenever I got tired, I would light one in the car while driving. 00:45:10,900 --> 00:45:17,133 大白就很容忍我的把这个窗户开到最大哈哈哈 Dabai tolerated me by opening the windows all the way—ha ha. 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,933 换别人的话就是每次去吃饭 With anyone else, when we went out to eat, 00:45:19,933 --> 00:45:22,700 大白有时候看到旁边桌抽烟 if Dabai saw someone smoking at the next table, 00:45:22,700 --> 00:45:24,500 他会去主动跟店员说 he would call the server over: 00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:25,866 旁边那桌人在抽烟 ‘That table is smoking. 00:45:26,133 --> 00:45:28,233 能不能给我换一桌 Could you move me to another table?’ 00:45:28,233 --> 00:45:31,300 但是对我就是一直很容忍哎呀 Yet he has always been very tolerant of me. 00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:36,533 我没办法 我难道能下车吗哈哈哈 What choice did I have? Was I supposed to jump out of the car? 00:45:37,266 --> 00:45:40,933 （非常抱歉！）我一拉开门跳下去了 ‘I’m terribly sorry!’—and then I open the door and jump out. 00:45:42,700 --> 00:45:44,966 （非常抱歉！） ‘I’m terribly sorry!’ 00:45:44,966 --> 00:45:49,033 好吧那就前两期节目好像是不是都有那个惯例啊 All right. Didn’t both previous episodes have a tradition 00:45:49,033 --> 00:45:51,766 最后节目要给观众抛出一个问题 of ending with a question for the audience? 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,533 我们可以啊可以有一个环节 Sure, we can have a segment for that, 00:45:54,533 --> 00:45:57,000 或者是跟变身相关的（讨论）吧 perhaps a discussion related to transformation. 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:01,066 这一期感觉其实和变身关系嗯你说大吗不大 This episode may not seem closely related to transformation, 00:46:01,066 --> 00:46:05,133 但是你说不大吗 其实中间像刚才我也讲到的 but then again, as I mentioned earlier, 00:46:05,133 --> 00:46:10,166 人变成Vtuber其实是一种是一种自我的变化 becoming a VTuber is a kind of personal transformation. 00:46:10,166 --> 00:46:13,566 包括人的成长和能够看到什么样的作品 So are growing up and the works one becomes able to see. 00:46:13,566 --> 00:46:20,366 这些东西其实还是存在于这个这期节目的这里那里的 Those ideas still appear throughout this episode. 00:46:20,366 --> 00:46:23,500 你要硬跟变身扯的话可能就是在 If you really want to connect smoking with transformation, 00:46:23,500 --> 00:46:30,000 这个也不算硬吧就是在上个世纪的一种认知里边 though the connection is not actually forced, in the last century, 00:46:30,300 --> 00:46:38,100 香烟就是作为一个从青少年变化为成年人的变身的符号 cigarettes symbolized the transformation from adolescence to adulthood. 00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:40,566 一种象征 是一个变身道具 They were a symbol—a transformation device. 00:46:40,866 --> 00:46:42,233 啊对 这也是啊 Right, exactly. 00:46:42,233 --> 00:46:46,400 我使用了这个道具现在我就不是小朋友了 ‘I have used this device, so now I’m no longer a child. 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,266 我变身成为大人了 I have transformed into an adult.’ 00:46:48,266 --> 00:46:54,266 有这样一种嗯不好的 坏的变身道具也在里面吧 So there is an unhealthy, harmful transformation device here too. 00:46:54,266 --> 00:47:01,366 但是渐渐的现在这个控烟社会 包括日本东京奥运会之前嗯 But in today’s tobacco-control society, including before the Tokyo Olympics, 00:47:01,366 --> 00:47:06,366 从原本的那种啊所有便利店前面都设置吸烟所 Japan went from having smoking areas outside every convenience store 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,000 到现在的渐渐的吸烟这件事情 to a situation where smokers gradually 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,266 已经很难找到一个在街上合理 found it very difficult to locate a reasonable, 00:47:13,266 --> 00:47:16,833 合法合规的吸烟场所的一种变化 legal and compliant place to smoke on the street. 00:47:16,833 --> 00:47:21,166 我觉得可以理解为是一种文明的进步吧 I think that change can be understood as progress in civilization. 00:47:21,533 --> 00:47:24,766 真的吗 我其实觉得这不是一个好事 Really? I actually do not think it is a good thing. 00:47:24,766 --> 00:47:27,400 作为非烟民我反而 （是吗？） As a nonsmoker, I instead—really?— 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:32,666 就是我认为应该还是有吸烟所的设置比较好 think dedicated smoking areas should still be provided. 00:47:32,666 --> 00:47:35,300 因为说白了这个就好像 Because, frankly, it is like this: 00:47:35,666 --> 00:47:40,033 如果很多人难以在这个你设置的边界下去活动的话 if many people cannot operate within the boundaries you set, 00:47:40,033 --> 00:47:42,933 你可能这个规则本身就失去意义了 then the rule itself may lose its meaning. 00:47:42,933 --> 00:47:45,666 我的观点其实就是要么你就把它禁了 My view is that you should either ban it outright, 00:47:45,666 --> 00:47:48,100 如果你是这么觉得它这么不合法 if you believe it is truly so unacceptable, 00:47:48,466 --> 00:47:53,100 但是如果你认为它是一个应该限制的 合法可以售卖的东西 or, if it is a legal product that should merely be restricted, 00:47:53,100 --> 00:47:58,800 那你可能就应该对它的使用场景也做出相应的规定 then you should also regulate the settings in which it can be used. 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,033 就是但是如果你卖它 If you sell it 00:48:01,033 --> 00:48:06,500 但是不允许人们合法的去这个消费它的话 but do not allow people to consume it legally, 00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:10,066 这个其实就是有点奇怪的嗯嗯 that is rather strange. 00:48:10,066 --> 00:48:13,300 因为其实我之前一段时间就最近这两年 Over the last couple of years, 00:48:13,566 --> 00:48:17,433 感觉在新宿街上抽烟的人比我之前印象中要多 I have felt that more people smoke on the streets of Shinjuku than before. 00:48:17,433 --> 00:48:20,600 当然可能之前我不怎么经常去新宿那边 Maybe I rarely visited Shinjuku before, 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,366 最近因为各种各样的理由吧 but lately I have. 00:48:23,166 --> 00:48:29,933 所以整体的一个大数据来说的话就是从60年代那种85% Looking at the overall data, Japan has gone from 85 percent in the 1960s— 00:48:29,933 --> 00:48:32,133 成年男性85%的吸烟率 an 85 percent smoking rate among adult men— 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,100 那种恐怖的数据到现在 that frightening figure, to the present, 00:48:35,100 --> 00:48:40,100 就是电视台会主动自主规制抽烟场景的描写 where television stations voluntarily restrict depictions of smoking, 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:47,000 从电视上那这个香烟的广告怎样的离开大家的公众的社会 and cigarette advertising has disappeared from television and public life. 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,433 到后来各种这个《健康增进法案》也好 Later came measures such as the Health Promotion Act 00:48:50,433 --> 00:48:52,600 这个减少吸烟所也好嗯 and reductions in smoking areas. 00:48:52,600 --> 00:49:00,466 现在日本的吸烟率 男性已经降到20%了 Today, Japan’s smoking rate among men has fallen to 20 percent. 00:49:00,466 --> 00:49:04,766 嗯这是一种整体的在向好的一种趋势 Overall, that is a positive trend. 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,500 是以全人类的健康来说 In terms of human health— 00:49:07,500 --> 00:49:12,100 以全人类的健康来说这是一种好的趋势 yes, for human health as a whole, it is a good trend. 00:49:12,866 --> 00:49:17,400 是的 我觉得所以最终还是一个挺技术的问题吧 Right. Ultimately, I think this is quite a technical question: 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,633 就是什么样的一个比例的曝光 what level of exposure is appropriate, 00:49:20,633 --> 00:49:25,766 或者说多少距离之内应该有一个吸烟所 or how close together smoking areas should be 00:49:25,766 --> 00:49:29,600 能够保障这个吸烟者的一个基本权利 to protect smokers’ basic rights. 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,800 我觉得也是很值得思考的 I think that is also worth considering. 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,100 当然就像我说的他是这一个更技术的问题 But as I said, this is a more technical issue. 00:49:35,100 --> 00:49:37,133 可能就不是我们今天能够 Maybe we cannot discuss it today, 00:49:37,133 --> 00:49:40,033 也不是我们可能在任何一天能够讨论的 or perhaps on any day, 00:49:40,033 --> 00:49:41,500 应该交给更专业的人士 It belongs with specialists. 00:49:41,566 --> 00:49:46,400 社会学了 跟我们这种文科生没有什么太大的关系了 It is sociology—nothing much to do with humanities students like us. 00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:50,000 那怎样这期 好吧那就到这吧 So, shall we end the episode here? 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,933 那我还是想问那个观众老爷们最后一个非常simple I still want to ask our viewers one final, very simple 00:49:53,933 --> 00:49:55,933 一个很简单的问题啊 a simple question. 00:49:55,933 --> 00:50:01,333 就是在观看了这个《在超市后门吸烟的两人》这种作品 When watching a work such as Smoking Behind the Supermarket with You, 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:08,900 或者说更古早的 像是《鲁邦三世》这种以主角吸烟 or an older work such as Lupin the Third, where the protagonist’s smoking 00:50:08,900 --> 00:50:12,133 是一个男性的特征的一种卖点的作品 is promoted as a marker of masculinity, 00:50:12,133 --> 00:50:15,766 这种作品就是吸烟角色在你面前出现之后 when those smoking characters appear before you, 00:50:15,766 --> 00:50:20,366 观众朋友们有没有那么一瞬间觉得抽烟很帅 have you ever, even for an instant, thought smoking looked cool? 00:50:20,366 --> 00:50:23,166 有没有会受到他们的影响呢？ Have you ever been influenced by them? 00:50:23,166 --> 00:50:26,133 好吧这个很simple的一个问题 All right, that is a very simple question. 00:50:26,133 --> 00:50:28,466 我也实话实说 I’ll be honest too: 00:50:28,466 --> 00:50:32,866 我有好吧 实话实说我有 I have. All right, honestly, I have. 00:50:33,666 --> 00:50:34,700 好吧就到这 Okay, that is all. 00:50:34,700 --> 00:50:35,766 那就到这 That’s all. 00:50:35,766 --> 00:50:37,266 那我们下期再见 See you next episode. 00:50:37,700 --> 00:50:39,100 拜拜拜拜 Bye-bye! 00:50:39,466 --> 00:50:40,266 嗯 Mm.