Episode 133 - Until Next Time 
​[00:00:00] 
[00:00:05] Harmony Elendu: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to CHAOSScast, the CHAOSS Community Podcast, where we share use cases and experiences that makes us open source community helps On the panel today we have me, Harmony Elendu. We have Mary Blessing, we have Georg Link, we have Alice, and you yourself that's also listening, you're on the panel today.
Thanks for joining in. Hi, Georg. How are you? Oh, doing good. Thank you, Harmony. Great to be with you again. Great to be with you all and recording today's episode. It's been a fun journey. I'm happy to reflect back on the past years of CHAOSScast. I'm no longer on the [00:01:00] board of Chaos, so Harmony, congratulations on your election to the Chaos board.
[00:01:06] Georg Link: So lots of things are happening. I'm happy to dive in. I'm gonna pass it on to Mary Blessing. Welcome, Mary Blessing. Hi, Georg. Thank you. I'm excited to be joining you all on today's panel talking about the exciting things happening in the Chaos community, and yeah, really excited to go deep into the conversation.
[00:01:29] Mary Blessing: And hi, Alice. Hey, everyone. Yeah, it's good to be back in the saddle recording another episode, although it is gonna be our last one for a while. It's always nice to tie a bow on things and have a good conversation with friends and enjoy the memories that we've made making the podcast, so yeah, really glad to be here.
[00:01:49] Harmony Elendu: Hi, everyone. It's quite emotional in the panel today. And thank you for congratulating me. Again, just to introduce myself, my name is Harmony. [00:02:00] I'm a project and product manager, a member of CHAOS board, newly elected, and also I lead the Chaos Technical Writers Focus Group. It's a pleasure to have you today.
This is going to be our last podcast for a while. Just join us as we have various conversations around it. Hi, Alice. Yeah, so I think we've, several of us have alluded to the fact that this is gonna be the last podcast for a while. We decided to do an episode to put a formal pause on the CHAOSScast podcast by recording a special episode.
[00:02:34] Alice Sowerby: So CHAOSScast will be taking an indefinite break, and we have no current plans to restart it. And before we start the episode, I just wanted to take a few moments to share some thoughts with you on behalf of everyone who's been involved. So producing the podcast has been a really rewarding experience, and we are grateful to everyone who's listened, contributed, and joined us in conversation over the years.
At this time, however, we have not been able to [00:03:00] determine that the podcast is delivering enough value to the community to justify the time and financial resources required to sustain it. But if there is a clear community need emerges in the future, we would be very excited to explore bringing it back, maybe even in a new form.
So until then, for everyone who has been listening and everyone who's been contributing, we send our thanks to you and grateful good wishes to you for being part of the CHAOSS community that created CHAOSScast. And we still have all that wonderful back catalog. So CHAOSS cast has not been, it's still gonna be there forever, for as long as we get the hosting right.
So yeah, that's where we're at with CHAOSScast Thank you, Alice, for that brief intro deeply. Before we clock out, we have a lot to talk about so that we will give you in-depth of how far we've come, where we are currently. We can't really tell you where we're going, but where now we're going [00:04:00] to have these conversations together with the people on the panel.
[00:04:03] Harmony Elendu: Beginning with, I want to talk about the history, and I would want to call Georg to give us a brief history about CHAOSS Cast up to this time. Yeah, I'm happy to talk about our history with the podcast, how we came to create it, and how it evolved over the years. The first episode we published on May 1st, 2020.
[00:04:32] Georg Link: That is now more than six years ago. So we've had quite a long run. And why did we start this in the first place? When we started the CHAOS community back, I think, three years before, 2017, we had a lot of conversations, and a lot of people were looking at open source community health, and they were doing things.
And we were [00:05:00] starting the CHAOS community to pull those efforts together, and we had fantastic conversations within our working group meetings, and we learned a lot from many different peoples and companies and what they were doing and how they were doing it, how they were thinking about metrics and analyzing projects and communities, what to do with it, how it drove decision-making.
And the question I always kept coming back to is, how do we not just build out software and metrics and guides within the CHAOS community, but how do we share the experiences? How do we share the knowledge that people have gained? How do we share the community aspect of having these conversations and preserve it in a way that more people can join even when they're not in the meetings?
At first, I thought, "Hey, let's have everyone write blog posts." And if you've ever [00:06:00] tried to get people to write anything, it is really difficult. But we were able to have conversations and say, "Hey, let's jump on a Zoom call, have a conversation about what you're working on." And yeah, and then we started recording these as podcast episodes.
And I, I was inspired by the SustainOSS podcast, and huge shout-out to what they're doing at the SustainOSS community. And they had a sponsor and a network for podcasts, and so we started CHAOSS Cast as
part
of this podcasting network. It- Fell apart at some point, but CHAOSScast survived, and I'm very glad for that. And there are many different things that we did to make sure CHAOSScast could survive for all these years, more than six years now. And I wanna reflect on the very important decision at the very beginning to make this a [00:07:00] community podcast.
As the person who drove it forward, I could have said, "Hey, this is the Georg podcast or the Metrics podcast by Georg," or something like that. By making it the deliberate community podcast, we were able to keep the podcast alive. If it had been mine, it would've fallen apart and been done long time ago. It is a real community effort, and we did this from the very beginning by having a logo contest.
What should the logo be of the Chaos Community podcast? And if you listen to episode number 26, we interview Louis Canas Diaz, who submitted the winning design. We also made sure to always have more than one organizer. So we started with three organizers, and we always shared in the work of finding guests on discussing the topics and facilitating the conversations.
I always, always like [00:08:00] to pull in community members. So we had the organizers that shepherded the organizing, getting guests, but then we also had panelists, and bring in voices from the community so we can have a back and forth and a conversation. And I always like to not even plan out what we are gonna say, just see where the conversation takes us.
We had a few ideas of topics we wanted to touch on, and then let the conversation unfold. So really the podcast was created with the intention, I think we did a really good job at that, of elevating voices of the community members and bringing the deep conversations that we had in the community, preserve those, and make them available more broadly.
So that's kind of the background of how we started the podcast. Yeah, absolutely. You and everyone else did a very good job, you know, elevating the voices of community members. [00:09:00] I personally been on the podcast a couple of times, really found it very interesting sharing my experience to the wider audience, and even though they are not in the room, it's really great Yeah, it's actually very, very great.
[00:09:15] Harmony Elendu: The podcast has grown, and not just grown as well, it has also educated people, passed a lot of informations. Personally, I learned a lot of things from speaking to guests, also learning things from a different perspective and all of that. The other things that stood out for me in the podcast were we had different programs that were chaired by either community members or people that had something going on.
For instance, I led the 20 Minutes with CHAOS Africa. We got to understand how the people from the African continent contribute to metrics, their understanding, and also the contributions that they did on the podcast. And I think we even had the Practitioner [00:10:00] Guide series as well. Yeah, it was just like a lot, and it was even fun organizing with Alice most of the time.
And it's been an amazing journey from... It started before I joined the community, and I've contributed squarely my own section of the puzzle up to this time, and it's been beautiful. Beautiful is the word and moment Yeah, it is. Yeah. And there's definitely been a huge amount of value in its ability to build a community, despite whether it was getting the listenership and so on that we wanted it to.
[00:10:39] Alice Sowerby: I think in the making of it had a really excellent effect on building communities, 'cause I was asked by Dawn to take it on around probably about this time two years ago, 'cause she'd been doing it. And I don't know when she started doing it, but it seemed to me that there had been quite a tradition of finding a [00:11:00] replacement or bringing someone on to share the work, and I think it created a lot of, you know, finding the people to come on the podcast, thinking about what topics we could talk about, using it as a venue for sharing what had happened at events, for talking in more depth about some of the work that had been going on that was written.
So the practitioner's guide is an example of that. New working groups that were coming up, and there's something about having to be recorded while having a conversation that makes you really sort of focus on actually really preparing and getting your thoughts into a good order and being able to ask, if you're a host, to ask good questions, and if you're a guest, to think about how you want to share the information that you have and how you wanna have conversations with other people about the topics that you're talking about.
And that is something unique that a podcast does. So I'm really glad [00:12:00] that we have this huge back catalog of, I think it's 132 episodes. This will be the 133rd, which is a great resource that will be there. Even if you're just listening, you will get to know the people of CHAOS, and I think that was a really nice thing.
Yeah, it's definitely been great. And for me, it was probably, like, one of the first things that I did on my own as an independent volunteer with open source. And so that was a great way for me to see open source at its best and volunteering at its best and the opportunity to work across so many different continents because we're involving the Asia chapter as well in some of the podcasts.
So yeah, a very nice experience for me personally. Thank you. Yes. Thank you for taking over and driving the podcast. It all comes back to the people in the community, and I love what you said about how recording the podcast changes a little bit perspective. Because when I [00:13:00] was at a conference and I was talking with people, and I would come across someone who shared a really interesting story, I would be like, "" Would you come on our podcast?
[00:13:10] Georg Link: I would love to hear your story on- We would love to have you on the podcast. Exactly. Recording the podcast and having that was always a, another layer of connecting with people. And I think you can see that when you listen to our episodes. We always have the value add at the very end, and we purposely included the section value adds at the end where whoever was on the podcast could just share about what is currently adding value to their life, humanize them, and connect on a more personal level where we don't just talk about the heavy topics or the technical aspects, but we get to talk about us Speaking of talking about us, if [00:14:00] everyone listening have noticed so far, I think I'm like the neutral person here.
[00:14:03] Mary Blessing: Georg, Alice, and Hawonni have, have had to host the podcast over the years, which is really beautiful. I think this has probably been my fourth or fifth time coming back onto this stage, and it's always humbling really. As a community member and contributor, I have enjoyed listening to this podcast, but obviously not the ones I'm in 'cause I find my own voice cringe when I listen to it after, after the recording is out.
So I tend to listen to all that, and I think my favorite series has been the Practitioner Guide. There was just so much value in them. There's, of course, the blog posts that Dr. Dawn usually put together, but even hearing her talk about these things, the experiences and the entire Practitioner Guide series has been very, very wonderful.
I also like the value add. I... sometimes I tend to, like, pick a few things about people when I hear them talk [00:15:00] about value add bits, so that's really personal and I really enjoy that part of the podcast. Not making it overly technical or overly serious, right? But also, like, helping me connect back to the people 'cause chaos is so broad, and I just feel like there's a lot of moving parts in chaos that I barely keep up with.
So, like, even hearing people talk about the things they do and how they've been using the resources that we have in the community, this podcast has definitely helped to bring those experiences forward, even when I personally am not observing or I'm not seeing them. So there have actually been a lot of, like, highlights from folks, both people that have been on the podcast and people that have been, that have not yet been on the podcast.
[00:15:49] Harmony Elendu: And for me personally, beyond the value that the podcast actually creates, there are also other interconnected values. Like, I got to collaborate with Alice. We had [00:16:00] beautiful moments that we shared, and we get to, like, learn. I also got to, like, collaborate and make friends with people like Georg. I love amazing folks, right?
So it's not just about hosting the podcast or even organizing them. I think the part of organizing them is debating on the topic, the topic. And to be very honest, we sometimes don't even know the title of the episode till after it's recorded. So yeah, it's been fun. And yes, the value adds is something that I try to see if I can try something out over time.
So thank you for staying with us up to this moment. I think if we have more highlights to share, please go ahead to share. I want to extend a thank you also, not just to the panelists and the guests that we had, and the listeners who've been part of the journey. I just want to give a big shout-out to Paul Bahr from Peachtree Sound, who edited every single episode, and he always makes us sound professional and polished, and he- [00:17:00] 
[00:17:00] Mary Blessing: Shout out to 
[00:17:00] Georg Link: Paul.
[00:17:01] Harmony Elendu: Shout out to Paul. 
[00:17:02] Georg Link: Yes. Well, here's the thing, okay? We start recording, and then I say, "Okay, Paul just joined us." He's not actually in the Zoom call, but I said, "Paul just joined us, and we can talk with him as if he was here. We can ask him to please take out when we stumble or when we want to re-" Oh, Georg.
[00:17:21] Mary Blessing: Yes. There's, there is the, that's the magic word that Elizabeth will say. Once you say that, Paul knows when to cut it off. Yeah. 
[00:17:28] Georg Link: Edit Paul. Oh. 
[00:17:30] Mary Blessing: Oh, Edit Paul, yeah. 
[00:17:33] Georg Link: So as a listener, you have not heard those comments because Paul has dutifully and beautifully removed them, but he makes sure that the audio from our microphones sparkle in your headphones.
So Paul, thank you. I'm speaking to you directly. Thank you for being part of this journey. You've always had wonderful advice on how to position the microphone or how [00:18:00] to get a better quality out or how to facilitate. I've learned a lot from you, so thank you. 
[00:18:07] Harmony Elendu: Thank you, Paul. Alice, do you have anything to say?
Like a special highlight? I feel like you have highlights too. 
[00:18:14] Alice Sowerby: Oh, well, I'll add my thanks to Paul. Yes, he's been extremely supportive way beyond what he needed to, and he even shared that he was a fan of Christmas crackers, which is not common in America. So I was glad that he, he was supportive of the mention that we had of Christmas crackers on one of our episodes.
In terms of highlights, I think my main highlight has been just working with Harmony and everybody else together. That's been the best thing, but I really have enjoyed learning about new topics and so on. One episode that was a highlight, but I like things to be quite organized and things, but we did, I think we did one episode that it may have been a Christmas special, or it may [00:19:00] have been the 100th episode, which maybe did come out around Christmas actually, and we had actually quite a lot of people on, and it was, like, slightly chaotic, which, you know, is on brand.
But that sort of stands out in my mind a little bit, so that was pretty nice. 
[00:19:14] Harmony Elendu: Thank you very much, Alice. It's actually a pleasure organizing the podcast too. It's been a beautiful moment. So let's look into our stats so far that we've had in the podcast. Overall, we have had 37,000 total downloads over 832 episodes, and on average we have 28 downloads per episode.
The most downloaded episode
with 933 downloads was episode 31 about marketing metrics for open source foundation and projects. 
[00:19:46] Georg Link: Oh, yeah, episode 31. That was a good one. It was about marketing metrics for open source foundations and projects, which resulted from a collaboration between CHAOS and [00:20:00] GNOME and KDE Where working with Sri Ramkrishna and Neo Kolokotronis, we built out metrics for the GNOME and KDE communities as a collaboration with CHAOSS.
So that was a fun one, and yeah, super stoked that was the highest downloaded episode with 933 downloads. 
[00:20:22] Harmony Elendu: Amazing. 
[00:20:22] Georg Link: What other stats do you have for us? 
[00:20:24] Harmony Elendu: The second most downloaded episode with 586 downloads was episode one, our hello world episode where we introduced CHAOSS and the podcast. A new episode could get between eight and f- 50 downloads on the first day, and then a few other following days, all thanks to you, the listeners.
With few exceptions, we kept the length of each episode between 20 and 50 minutes. Thank you for hearing our voice and enjoying the value that we provide on that one. By geography, CHAOSS cast was downloaded about 60% from within the United States and [00:21:00] 40% in other countries. The second highest ranked download location is Germany with 5%.
Big shout-out to all of our listeners. Statistics per episode have been consistent throughout the six years of publishing the podcast. Within the first 90 days, an episode could be downloaded around 80 to 120 times. We have three clear outliner. Episode 31, that I mentioned prior before now, was also downloaded 687 times within the first week alone.
Another popular episode was episode 103 with 281 downloads in the first 90 days, and episode 30 with 258 downloads in the first 90 days. All of this is because you saw value in what we share here, and you have also listened to everything that we've spoken so far, from our guests, community members, host organizers, including Paul, our editor, all of this, we say thank you.
Thank you very much for being part of us up to [00:22:00] this moment. 
[00:22:01] Georg Link: I was wondering before going to the value adds- 
[00:22:04] Harmony Elendu: Okay ... 
[00:22:04] Georg Link: if I could ask what are you all planning to do next? Harmony, I assume you are going to be part of the CHAOSS committee for quite a while. You just joined the CHAOSS board. What's in your future within CHAOSS and professionally?
[00:22:21] Harmony Elendu: So personally, as a member of the board, there are a couple of things I want to drive in the community, especially when it has to do with much more engagement, community participation, diversity, and a lot more amazing stuff. Also pushing out CHAOSS across the globe. We have been able to expand in a couple of chapters.
I think we have about three. I think we can do more and we can preach more about open source across the world, not just about metrics itself, which is our core primary objective on what we do here, but also to bring folks from [00:23:00] around the globe together to contribute to various projects, be part of the community, learn, grow, and improve.
Personally, in my career path, what I'm doing beyond contributing to open source, I'm getting involved, I'm doing more in managing product as a product manager, managing technical projects and programs, both in the open source industry and also in the financial industry. And I'm always happy to join in or please share opportunities if there's any you'd love me to be part of, especially within open source.
I would love to work in open source and also things that are woven around open source companies, programs, just a lot. I love contributing and I want to do that majorly as I grow in my career. Thank you. Hi, Alice. What's next for 
[00:23:52] Alice Sowerby: you? So I'm very fortunate at the moment that since I started volunteering with CHAOSS and [00:24:00] also with the Todo Group, pretty shortly after that, I started being paid for working in open source, which was really such a privilege because all the money comes from donations.
Wow. And so that's working with the FreeBSD Foundation, which is, FreeBSD is an operating system. And so I'm gonna continue doing that. That work has recently taken me into some super, super interesting areas. One is the EU Cyber Resilience Act, so I'm now a bit of a geek about that particular piece of regulation, and I've been going to Brussels from time to time.
I think I'll be going again in September to catch up on, like, the latest developments of it, that coming into force or some parts of that coming in force. Also, another thing that's been pretty interesting is AI-assisted vulnerability discovery in open source. So I'm working with the FreeBSD project a little bit on that at the moment, and that's being funded by a [00:25:00] really interesting group in the Linux Foundation.
It's actually part of OpenSSF. It's called the Alpha Omega Project, or Omega, depending on how you like to say it. And that is a fund that's been provided by a number of the large tech companies to help open source projects discover vulnerabilities before other people do using AI-assisted tooling. And so that's been really, really interesting as well, getting to, to kinda see, be on the front line of seeing what's going on on that side of things, and I definitely recommend anyone who's interested in that to check out the Alpha Omega Project.
I'm still volunteering with the Todo Group. I don't have anything going on for CHAOSS right now, but I will be lurking at the very least and seeing, yeah, seeing what's going on that seems interesting. How about you, Mary Desson? 
[00:25:52] Mary Blessing: Yeah. So that's actually the right time. Okay. Um, I mean, congratulations, Alice, on the all of the wins.
[00:26:00] Yeah, for me, is it odd if I say I don't know what I want to do? I don't know. But, like, just with, um, when we -- I know I want to stay long term in open source, but how to go about that, I have zero idea yet. But I was at a conference in the UK, and one of the speakers talked about just keep on doing things, and one day it will all make sense.
So yeah, I will just keep at it. I am still volunteering with CHAOSS. However There is the newly renewed grant from Sloan, and I will be joining Elizabeth and, uh, Ruth and Evya to form the community management team with that grant. So I'm really excited and looking forward to it, hoping everything goes well.
I do not currently have a full-time job, so yeah, just doing a bit of contract and looking out for a full-time role in open source [00:27:00] and things around community management, engagement, programs management, and all those exciting things. I'm also looking to go get a degree in data science. That's been the highlight of this quarter for me, a lot of planning and looking out for schools that I would really like to be a part of.
So that's been the planning process for me. Yeah, I mean, other than that, things have been going really well. Also doing other volunteering stuff, Research Software Communities, and that has been
really exciting. So I think that's all that's going on with me right now. 
[00:27:42] Georg Link: Oh, so good to hear all the things you're up to and planning. I'm really excited for you all. I, myself, work with Petrucia came to an end at the beginning of this year, so I have something new lined up. I'm not [00:28:00] quite ready to talk about it at time of recording this episode, but maybe by the time we publish it, you can find out more on my LinkedIn profile.
I'm quite excited about this opportunity where I get to take my experience from the technology side, from business, from community, and combine that all into a new role that I'm just super excited, but I don't want to spoiler it right now. So come follow me on LinkedIn, and we can always have a chat. If anyone wants to connect personally, I do like having virtual coffees.
Just reach out, and we'll find a time to sit down and catch up. Yeah, and with regards to CHAOS, it is time to pass on the baton. I'm very happy that over the last nine years that we have built the community. We're now at a point where we can elect board members, and so my [00:29:00] term has ended. And yeah, I'm happy to see what the next generation is going to make of this community 
[00:29:08] Harmony Elendu: Thank you very much, Georg.
And you should, if you're listening to this and you have, like, two minds in deciding if you're going to take Georg's offer, which is virtual coffee, I will tell you that it's fun. Go out to take advantage of it. Yeah. And it's time for value adds, and I would want to start with Georg. 
[00:29:32] Georg Link: Well, thank you. My value add for this time is CHAOSScast related.
My husband of 10 years occasionally listens to CHAOSScast, and whenever he mentions, "Oh, I heard you on CHAOSScast again," and he starts talking about the things that we talked about on the episode, every time it, it just makes me feel loved, and it also keeps me connected, [00:30:00] and that was a lot of motivation for me to keep going with recording CHAOSScast.
So I know I had stepped away for a while from CHAOSScast, but that encouragement at home had me come back and rejoin the o- organizers. So my husband and the personal encouragements at home is what my value add is 
[00:30:27] Harmony Elendu: Thank you very much, Georg 
[00:30:30] Alice Sowerby: I can go next, but no, my husband is not getting a shout-out. No.
He's been very s- he's very supportive. But if you wanted a shout, I should have listened to the CHAOSScast, and he didn't do that. So the sowing was fun, but the reaping not so fun. Okay. My value add is international community, finding international community. I have worked and also volunteered in open source, and that has led me to connect [00:31:00] with people from all over the world.
So I regularly speak to people in Italy, Brazil, Ukraine, Canada, Finland, Nigeria, Taiwan, I, you know, I co- Japan. I could keep going. There's nobody in Antarctica yet, so come on open source groups in Antarctica. We need more southern content. But yeah, it's really amazing and really humbling to have the technology these days to build community across such huge distances.
And, you know, I feel like I'm a real time zone ninja these days trying to organize people across different time zones as well. That's a skill I never thought that I would have. But yeah, it's been an absolute highlight of working first with multinational companies, but also with open source that spans across so many different countries and cultures.
I think that's what I really like to hear about, the different cultures. So yeah, that's been a great value add to me. 
[00:31:59] Mary Blessing: [00:32:00] Yeah. I would just like to say, like, I share with Alice her value adds, like open source has really connected me with a lot of people that I don't know if I weren't part of the open source ecosystem, if I would be able to, like, meet them.
And even, like, stepping out of my home country, you know, even visiting these other countries and connecting with brilliant minds within the open source, open science spaces has really been amazing. And of course, there are times when things is always a struggle, but it's cute. I, I find it really cute. Yeah, but for this podcast, my value add is just the excitement around planning a trip to a country that I've always wanted to go to.
And yeah, that was the excitement for me right 
[00:32:50] Harmony Elendu: now. I'm very much excited as you, Mary Blessing. It's been amazing connecting with people around the globe. My value add is I have [00:33:00] been reading about people's culture across, especially countries I would love to travel to, speak in, continent I've never been to, but I've spoken to people from there.
So I would love to visit various countries, especially outside Africa, and I would take opportunities that comes outside there, especially if it's going to allow me try out foods I've read about recipes or cakes that Alice have sent me pictures of that I never eat. We 
[00:33:29] Mary Blessing: have a foodie. 
[00:33:32] Harmony Elendu: Or dance with people, strangers, and party.
I think there's a lot of beautiful thing around the world, and I want to not just read about them, I want to experience them. So yeah, that's my value add. So if you have the opportunity to experiencing these things, have me at the back of your heart because I'm cheering you by the side. Yeah. 
[00:33:50] Georg Link: Harmony, my guest room is always available when you find yourself in the Midwest, come on over.
[00:33:57] Harmony Elendu: Yeah. We got an [00:34:00] apartment. 
[00:34:01] Mary Blessing: Yes. Speaking of apartment, I just recently came across this platform that allows you babysit people to stay in their house for free and eat free meals. So I don't know if it's of interest to anyone out there, but yeah, just thought about it. 
[00:34:17] Harmony Elendu: Please share the link also for the other show notes.
Go help somebody, me precisely or somebody else. Yeah. But go ahead, Alice. 
[00:34:27] Alice Sowerby: And so that is the end of today's podcast. For now, this is the last episode for some time. Thank you for joining us today and over the last years. We hope you enjoyed CHAOSScast as much as we did. Until next time, the Chaos Community.