Richard Graves (00:01.157)
Well, Josh, welcome along to the Science for Sport podcast. It's great to have you on this week's episode.

Josh Dragone (00:06.196)
Absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for having me on and it's a real kind of round the world moment for me. Essentially I remember when I first started doing my undergrad and was learning as an SSC coach, like Science Support, one of the main kind of providers from an SSC perspective. So thank you so much for having me on.

Richard Graves (00:24.537)
No, it is absolutely our pleasure and and that's probably a as good a place as any to start for our our listeners or viewers on our YouTube channel. Tell them a little bit about your background and what's brought you on the journey to where you are now, which is the head of athletic development at Jukes Meadow Tennis Academy.

Josh Dragone (00:40.822)
Yeah, so being involved in S &C now for 10 years coming up to after my degree and then kind of specialised within different sports back in Wales and had to play around with load of different sports, rugby, football and then somehow managed to fall into tennis, is quite a cool sport. Welsh kind of tennis wasn't as well known back then, but it definitely is over the last kind of couple of years and we did a real good programme.

back in Wales and then kind of fell in love with the sport, just the unique physical demands of tennis and what is really required. And then wanted to progress on and as a a S &C coach wanting to work in tennis, I think West London is probably one of the best areas that you can be. And then was fortunate enough to join Duke's Meadows in 2021 after Covid as a senior coach. And then a year later took over as head of Athletic Development and been there ever since and loving it.

Richard Graves (01:39.385)
You you use the phrase there, unique demands. And I suppose this applies to tennis more the than almost any other sport given the nature of the the endless competitive season that go runs pretty much twelve months a year. And when we we think about the developments of a tennis player, people understandably focus on the technical side, shot making abilities on the court, but in terms of athletic development, there's a lot more that goes into that than just going to the gym and lifting weights, isn't there? tell us

What makes it such a unique challenge are just how much planning goes into each app.

Josh Dragone (02:12.045)
Yeah, think it's from an athletic development standpoint, it's kind of all things at all times. You need to be fast, you need to be powerful, change in direction, robust enough to play, energy system development. Yeah, like all of it at times and you never know kind of when you need it, but you definitely need it throughout any kind of moment within a match, which is a real challenge as an S &C coach to go around.

with the, the, athletes, what's the one or two key things you're really going after? Cause ultimately you could argue they need everything at all times, you know?

Richard Graves (02:47.95)
So how do you go about balancing it up then as as a trainer, between competition, travel, recovery, a and all across what it as we've touched upon, is such a long calendar.

Josh Dragone (03:00.417)
Yeah, I think it's through experience, I guess, from my perspective, the kind of flexibility within your planning, that's so important because you never really know knowing when you're going to play and how long you're going to play. Like example, I had a player who's been on the road competing for the last four weeks and it's kind of like you have to be agile with your planning because week one you could easily lose first round, but you're still abroad. You still have to find those kind of windows of opportunities. You're not really sure on.

rankings, acceptance lists, main draw if you're in qualies. So it's kind of that ability to have a plan, but then you have to be really adaptable based off kind of what you see day to day. And that could change multiple times within a day, which could be, they could lose around. So you've got, you know, you've got two or three days where you could get some real solid working or do you know what, they could have played a whole week, but then they got to go straight on a flight to another tournament back in. So it's a real challenge as a coach, but I think from my side.

the best kind planning that we've done is you have kind one or two key things that you're really going after from a physical development and just kind of then being agile with your planning around that to help the athlete based off the tournament needs and kind of what they're going after.

Richard Graves (04:13.988)
What are the indicators for for you then when you're working with athletes? How do you know when it's time to push an athlete in terms of of training away from the court and when do you back

Josh Dragone (04:25.195)
Yeah, I think from my side, it's very much dependent, depending on the athlete, what their goals are, what they're doing, where they're at in their tournament kind of schedule. Obviously in an ideal world, you'd have a couple of weeks in the lead up to a tournament and that can help you in terms of your planning and having real structure. But then it's a case of, like I said earlier on, it's a case of when they are on the road, it's kind of real, trying to find those windows of opportunities where you can get some really solid work in.

Also, just, yeah, maybe I'll start that one again, maybe, I don't know, that might work.

Richard Graves (04:59.308)
No, no, that that's a absolutely fine because I was going to say, what the factors that you consider then when you're looking to draw up a weekly training schedule for for each tennis player?

Josh Dragone (05:08.077)
Yeah, so sometimes it's court time, actually managing to get on court and find court time. Then it's kind of what the technical coach, what they really want from the athlete in that week, what they're really going after from a technical and tactical perspective. And then ultimately try to find as an SSE coach, like what kind of one or two key things you're going after. And I think it's very different to my experience in football where everything is.

is really structured and really planned day in day out. And that's kind of something that I do think tennis can learn from in some aspects, having real clear things that you're going after across the training week. But I think ultimately also having that ability to be flexible with the planning, because things can change. Like you might not get court access, you might not be able to find a hitter to help with that training session. There's so many different kind of demands that can challenge the training week.

Richard Graves (06:06.37)
Yeah, a a and there are mitigating circumstances as well because it especially in tennis, it every athlete is individual. They have circumstances unique to their own makeup. So I suppose you have to consider age, the level of competition that a a tennis player is playing at, the schedule that as you've touched upon, that is right here and right now, maybe three weeks, a month, two months down the line as well. How much do they influence what you're doing?

Josh Dragone (06:35.393)
Yeah, think definitely, definitely agree with that. And I think it's, something that you're, where can I start that one again? Or could I go back? is that continuing to record to be able to do that? Sorry.

Richard Graves (06:48.212)
I will make a note of the the time and then edit it out. let me think of rephrasing the question so we've got a clear edit point.

Josh Dragone (06:50.345)
sorry.

Richard Graves (07:05.836)
I I'll just ask a a straight question, hopefully we can put it together generically. how how much does a player's age, the level of competition, the schedule they have in the coming weeks, months ahead influence what you're trying to do?

Josh Dragone (07:18.807)
Yeah, massively. think one thing that is something that's getting more popular, but definitely more understanding around growth and maturation within the sport and understanding where players are at in their journey and what they can really handle. Some players that are early maturers, so they may be able to physically cope with the demands of the game and be able to compete more and look more athletic and be more explosive on the court, whereas you then where you may have...

some players who are your later developers and essentially you may be then looking at developing certain other qualities and having less pressure on the court and that's something that definitely within the sport of tennis that's really important.

Richard Graves (08:04.164)
And all the while, of course, most of these tennis players, if not all of them, in fact, constantly competing. So how do you ensure that you maintain that physical development whilst they're they're competing?

Josh Dragone (08:16.171)
Yeah, think it's again going back to it's fine. It's really finding those those windows of opportunity. example would be this week player who who had lost in singles is already out, but then they still have doubles. So then there is a there is a challenge where you can get some really good work in in that week. You're just managing around the schedule. But again, it has to be really flexible, but it's all dependent on on kind of tournament times.

equipment to the gym, some tennis venues don't have have access to good quality gyms, so you're kind of constantly managing and adapting throughout that training week.

Richard Graves (08:56.77)
Yeah, and I guess that as much as the actual physical training itself is important, so too is is recovery. and it's often gets talked about as something that's done after training, doesn't it? But I I guess if you get it right, it actually turns into one of the biggest performance advantages. So in that respect, how important is sleep in all of this? and how much emphasis do you put on?

Josh Dragone (09:19.565)
Yeah, 100%. I think it's the recovery side of things, players having that ability to recover one day and really go again the next day and push. think that's something that's so important when you're competing, when you're on the road for quite a long period of time. And something that we really push with our players is always kind of checking in and always nudging from the recovery side of things. Have you got enough sleep? Are you getting enough quality of your sleep? Some players, we obviously track that.

some players it's generally just a conversation in the morning like hey how are you doing today, how did you sleep and then like always nudging and educating the players on the importance of it and I think I'm very fortunate that work with quite a young age group and it's really about kind of developing those routines and getting them to understand the importance of it both the player and ultimately the parent as well.

Richard Graves (10:12.174)
What are the what are the points of emphasis, whether it be a a professional tennis player or what one of the d the junior players that you refer to when you talk about recovery, when you discuss it with them, what what do you emphasise?

Josh Dragone (10:14.903)
you

Josh Dragone (10:23.533)
think it's just getting them to understand the importance of it and how actually them really investing in that can actually help them on the court. And think there's them getting to understand how much sleep, the quality of your sleep, I'm not a nutritionist, but we touch on elements of that, the importance of fueling effectively and hydrating effectively and just always kind of nudging those, nudging them in the right direction. But again, ultimately, it's a lot of it's down to really educating them on the importance of it, how it actually impacts.

availability on the core, reducing the risk of injuries and making them ultimately more robust.

Richard Graves (10:59.884)
And particularly with it with the particularly with the junior players, Josh, are there common mistakes? Players going home and thinking, Well, if I put my feet up that that constitutes recovery. What what do you encounter?

Josh Dragone (11:11.615)
Yeah, I think it's a real challenge within the youth realm. Because if you look at the schedule of a professional tennis player and a youth tennis player, they're actually, the youth tennis player, I'd probably argue they're doing more. Sometimes they have tennis in the morning, then they've got to go straight to school, then they're coming back in the afternoon to complete their tennis, and they're finishing seven, eight o'clock in the evening. So then I think common pitfalls would be just...

at the end of the session, just going straight home and not kind of fueling properly, getting something in or doing some form of recovery post-session. But from a scheduling perspective, it's really difficult. I think that's the unique thing around tennis. You have to be so flexible with what you're doing with those players.

Richard Graves (11:58.553)
And you've talked about fueling on a a couple of occasions in i in the last few answers you've given. And I know you said you're you're not a nutritionist by trade, but how closely do diet and nutrition need to align wi with a player's schedule in order s that they can be the best versions of themselves on the court?

Josh Dragone (12:15.629)
Yeah, 100%. I think it's from my experience, think a lot of the junior players that I work with are definitely under-feeling and not feeling enough. Because it is a real challenge, like getting it in with schools, with the academies. But we're really big on it at the centre. And even with the players that I work with, I always ensure that even if they're bringing something to the gym and having a snack, always checking in with those guys, making sure, hey, have you brought your water bottle?

your snack for the session and then also the same for the tennis court. Sometimes when they're on the tennis court and I have the availability to step out and go and watch, it's like in the rest break, just like, hey, have you had a snack today? Have you had something to eat? And making sure that they can consistently fueling is something that we're really big on. And then ultimately it's like, again, really developing those habits to help them on the court.

Richard Graves (13:11.652)
What are the biggest challenges you encounter when you're working, particularly with junior tennis players? Is it understanding? Is it awareness? not just of what they should be eating, but of their own body and what it's demanding and wetness.

Josh Dragone (13:24.653)
Yeah, I think there's a number of things in terms of the challenges. think it's definitely getting them to kind of quantify exactly how much they really need to feel and what it really takes to get it in. And ultimately the challenges with their schedules, with the parents' and their sporting schedule, actually to find time to get it in. A lot of these kids are rushing from school straight onto the tennis court, then doing tennis for two or three hours, then off home.

and then up again in the morning. it's kind of, those are real challenges that we face within the sport. it's, again, I think, I'd stress it's if you really develop those good habits around good quality sleep, good quality hydration, nutrition, and just constantly nudging the players in a positive way and educating and reinforcing it. I think then the players, when they come to...

15, 16, 17, I think they're in a way better position. Whereas I think if you're not doing that at a younger age and educate the parents alongside of that, I think it's often a real, challenge, especially when the genuine, the physical demands go up, what they're doing. And if they don't really develop those routines, it's a real challenge.

Richard Graves (14:40.516)
How do you do that? What are the habits that you encourage? 'Cause we all know that, especially with young teenagers, it it's not always easy to get them to accept anything.

Josh Dragone (14:49.131)
Yeah, definitely. think so from my side, really big on protocol with warmups, like really making sure players have a clear process to follow and that the content of it adapts throughout the years and throughout the program. But in terms of the process, the process would be very similar. it's like obviously the ramp method is one of the ones that we follow. It's kind of like...

heart raiser options, giving them different options, then giving them mobility and dynamic options, various exercises, then going into more your plyometrics and jumping and landing work, then into your speed movement, change direction, then your tennis contact footwork, which is something that we add in, and just making sure players are doing that consistently and giving them different options, but giving them complete clarity of what that process is for them.

and then I get, like I said earlier on, just really nudging them from a, from a nutrition and hydration perspective. It's like, it kind of is a non-negotiable that they, they must bring that to, the session. and I think once you, again, once you get it to them at a younger age, it just becomes a habit, just becomes a habit. And you have players now that coming in 15, 16, 17 always have their water. Some of them have their electrolytes. If it's post, if it's post-training, they'll, they'll bring in, they'll have their protein, protein shakes and then they'll have some form of snack.

It's just, yeah, those be the kind of key ones that we go for.

Richard Graves (16:18.052)
developing a routine, isn't it? Especially with young adults like that. If it becomes accepted as part of the norm, then it then it's more readily done on on a regular basis. I just wonder though, for for parents and players to be honest that that are listening, what are the biggest things that they can do in order to to put themselves in the best possible position to succeed?

Josh Dragone (16:37.665)
I think from my side, definitely those routines for sure. think that is something that we're really big on and it's something that ultimately when they're competing, when they're at tournaments, ultimately we want all their energy, all their focus to be on competing and ultimately trying to get the job done. if you're worrying about kind of where your water bottle is, like what have you got to do? I think you're wasting a lot of...

a lot of cognitive energy on that, which ultimately I feel could impact the level on the core. And I think from a parental perspective, it's probably, can they then help take that pressure away from that child and be the person that will help them with getting their water, help them with their nutrition, help them with their snacks, making sure they're ready, available, ultimately the play they can then just dial in and get what they need.

those from a recovery and hydration nutrition perspective definitely those for me.

Richard Graves (17:40.14)
And speaking specifically to athletic development, in your experience, i is there one thing that people tend to overlook? And if so, what is it?

Josh Dragone (17:50.03)
I think from my side it's very different tennis to other sports. think it's the methods of how we train from a tennis perspective are very different to other sports. But from an athletic development standpoint, think one thing that really stands out is how much people really buy into it. They ultimately know the importance of the athletic development and understand looking at the demands of the game and how physically demanding it is going and it's only going to get.

get better, is brilliant from an S &C coach perspective, but it's kind of, they really have a proper structured plan in place and what the kind of key things that they're going after and not just kind of looking on Instagram and seeing the professional players doing one or two key exercises and then going, right, you know what, my kid needs that. And I think it's not to, like that's probably now where a lot of it's going, a lot of parents, that's where they're finding their.

their kind of research, right? And I think as coaches, can we just educate them on the importance of, right, are they getting good quality strength work in once, twice a week? Are they getting really good speed, change of direction, like tennis and also tennis contact footwork in as well. And then just kind of coordination, all that kind of stuff fits in and around that from my perspective. But it's from a parental perspective, it's making sure they, as a child, they have a real clear structure with what they're doing.

the training week to help them.

Richard Graves (19:17.614)
How mu how much of an issue is that, Josh? Because everybody has a smart device now and it it's easily accessible and everybody has their their idols, their icons that that they follow. And most athletes will show some reel or other that shows them advocating a particular training session or something that helps the forehand, backhand, whatever it might be, mobility. A and I'd guess occasionally that

Is that conflict with what you're trying to to drill into each athlete?

Josh Dragone (19:48.622)
Yeah, definitely. think that's ultimately a lot of conversations that I've had, had and around that. And to be honest with I think like completely welcome them. I think it's a, it's a perfect conversation starter and educating them on, okay, do you know what? Like that is really good. And that serves a purpose, but then getting the, the parent and athlete to understand, okay, you know, when we're not quite there yet, but you know, that's where we want to get to 100%. But in order to get there, the kind of these are the key, two or key three things that you may need to do and kind of

very much of the belief of earning the right to progress. But like from my side, I think it's happening a lot more in my experience for the last 10 years, like parents and players looking on social media and looking at professional players and looking at what they're doing. But from a coach's perspective, I think it's a brilliant conversation starter. then as a coach, 100%, as long as it's done with the right intentions and it's all around the...

Richard Graves (20:39.268)
Do you welcome that then?

Josh Dragone (20:46.349)
holistic approach of the player and making sure the players at the heart of it. Definitely welcome those conversations and I think that's one thing I definitely feel that's so important within the game of tennis is making sure the parent, the player, the tennis coach and myself as well as the athletic development coach are all on alignment and really understanding what we're going after and why essentially.

Richard Graves (21:12.77)
And to that end, then, whether it's a a budding young tennis player listening to this podcast or or parents that that has a a child that's i involved with tennis, be at the local sports club, academy, wherever it may be, what's the one piece of advice that you would offer them right now?

Josh Dragone (21:30.029)
think it's not kind of, there are many different ways to success and the road to success isn't always one way and every journey is very different and I think one thing I'd definitely encourage is to really embrace that journey and understand like in 10, 15 years time what you're to remember when you're a kid. You're probably going to something other than just kind of your sets and reps and execution. It's kind of the memories you make of people when you're at tournaments, when you're...

when you're traveling with coaches, those are the memories you're gonna remember in 10, 15 years time. Not so much the ability of how to squat, how to lunge, how to do a push, pull, which obviously we understand are really important, but I think from a parental and a player perspective, it's like really embraced the journey and I think tennis is a fantastic sport and gives great opportunities to players, but I think ultimately, I think a lot of people get caught in the here and now and not really kind of...

embracing that journey.

Richard Graves (22:29.634)
Are we getting better at developing tennis players from a young age?

Josh Dragone (22:32.799)
I think so, I do really think that. I think there is a big shift in culture on the importance of it and parents and players and tennis coaches do really understand, they do understand it's needed but I think probably greater work on what the actual plan and programme is would be where I think as a community we can all get better at for sure but I think from a cultural perspective.

comparison to other sports that I've, previous word did, and another coach that I've spoken to, think, to tennis definitely, they do understand the real importance of doing good S &C work. It's just getting it in.

Richard Graves (23:15.308)
Absolutely. I and I for one certainly look forward with interest now to see the stu young stars of tomorrow coming out of Jukes Meadow Jukes Meadow Tennis Academy down there in London. before we go, for those listening that want to find out more, where can they stay across the latest developments with what you're doing on social media?

Josh Dragone (23:34.221)
Yeah, so first of all, more than welcome to come down to Duke's Meadows. We have an open door policy. We'd love to have anyone down to come and see what we do. We have a pretty cool academy and trying to do some really good things there as well. And then from my side, if you want to know more, it's have an Instagram, JD Athletic Development where kind of at the moment I'm really kind of trying to help educate parents and players on the importance of athletic development in S &C.

why it's important and ultimately the long term goal is what good practice within the sport should look like.

Richard Graves (24:10.336)
Excellent stuff. We'll stare across those social media channels for sure. Josh Tragone, it's been an absolute pleasure and wish you all the best going forward.

Josh Dragone (24:17.537)
Thank you very much, appreciate it.